Note to Community As you know I've recently posted a review of the Pimax Crystal Light in a video with an objective to compare overall VR vs Triple Monitors in Sim Racing. I'm a racing coach, and my real (and unique) value is to teach stuff with ways of explaining that I know I'm best in class. I'm constantly bombarded by brands to review everything you can imagine - VR headsets, Pedals, Wheels, Monitors, Headsets, Gloves, Games, Apps of all sorts, etc. I turn down 99% of these offers, because I know that's not what I'm here for. I don't want to follow the influencer route and just be a "sell-out" to other brands. I make my money by making drivers get better and drive faster. I have my own company and racing school with over 10 employees. Whenever I accept any kind of free equipment to review and make content about it, it's because I really believe it could bring something positive to my community, or because I'm really curious about trying these new things or games or whatever. I am NOT a reviewer, I'm a coach. When I published the last VR vs Monitors video, my intention was to try to describe that comparison from a coach's perspective. And I believe I did that very well. I had no intention of making money from Affilliates or anything like that. Because I wouldn't make anything compared to how much I can already make with my own Motor Racing Academy. I received a uncomparable number of negative reviews and judgemental comments about how I'm spreading "misinformation for clicks" or some random stupidity like this... I don't need clicks, I don't want clicks. I prefer 1000x time to make a video about Racecraft Analysis that gives me 10.000 views instead of trying to find forms of content that will give me 100.000 views but steer away from the objective of this channel. I sell courses, and if it's not good for you, I give your money back 100% with absolutely no questions asked. I'm a big believer of ethical marketing, and if you think I'm an evil sell-out or whatever you wanna call, just don't subscribe and get out of here. No one is forcing you to stay.
after all you’ve given the sim racing community FOR FREE, the response from a few has been disgraceful. i started my sim racing journey with your videos and improved to a high level with your free tips alone. i chose to pay for the course to find that last 5% and to repay you for being such a massive influence on my sim racing journey. you’ve done everything the right way suellio, people trying to damage your reputation with negative comments is shameful. your students know the truth and we appreciate you more than you could know!! you’re a huge inspiration for so many, don’t forget that ❤️
I think the shaking may just be a trait of the headset you were trying. After watching your video I went on iRacing and tried to recreate it but could not, very stable. However you raise a good point and may be an issue with some headsets. I do agree about the whole "sweat" thing. Even the super lightweight Bigscreen becomes an issue after a few hours. Great review thanks.
We know Suellio! Goos without saying! Dont focus on the negativrs. Focus on the postives. A lttle feedback is good. But if it is a dumb reaction that does not make sence. Don,t give it you time/energy. Better to react on the decent hardcore following you already have! Your not dojng great, your doing fantastic! 🙏
The shakiness of the horizon compared to IRL of it always static is something I'd never considered. Im in the middle of deciding between VR or triples, and I think I'm gonna do VR for the depth perception, and just cause VR seems an amazing future tech that will only improve over time and I wanna contribute by buying one, to make sure it isn't tech that isn't selling and gets dropped because I do think it's the future of games. Graphics is getting so good that the only next step will be further immersion into the gaming environment which VR provides. I appreciate this comparison, and nice to consider enjoying a couple years of VR and then still doing triples down the line. Love your videos and coaching, thanks for all you provide to the sim community for free. Love from Australia!
Hey @SuellioAlmeida a lot of games like for example acc have a look to horizon feature with a stability percentage that help to solve that horizon vibration you are talking about. I am on a Quest 2 so things may differ but it couldn’t hurt to try it out. Much love to you and your contect. Keep it up man💯
I do not experience this shaking AT ALL, and I not only run VR, but also a motion rig. I do use the Bigscreen Beyond, and its glued to my face. I can turn my head with 0 inertia, and the thing stays planted and focused the entire time. I do also run the audio headstrap and that really helps secure it, plus its super comfortable for longer sessions.
Same here (except I'm still waiting on my audio strap) I'd really like to see Suellio try VR again with the BSB + audio strap and get his impressions of it. I think it'd be way different with how much smaller and lighter it is
Came here to say this, glad it's not just me. I'm using a meta quest 3 with elite strap and the lenses + strap are decent for comfort and zero shaking that he talks about experiencing.
@@purplejw The BSB has other nightmares to deal with, though. Out of the 8 people I know who own one, 5 had to return their headsets for IPD fixes. 3 of them needed a second replacement. One of them gave up. Plus the narrow sweet spot...
unfortunately, this type of VR misinformation for clicks is what might keep other people from trying VR, which is likely what he intended anyways, clicks. I have seen other people call him out on similar click baiting with other videos. That he messed up his VR set up by having his VR strap loose, that L is on him and not on VR racing environment.
I'm almost 64 years-old, and by no means fast. Not super slow, but winning races consistently is a thing of the past, lol. I bought a VR headset a year ago, and even if I could afford triples, I wouldn't go in that direction. The immersion whilst racing, whether that be single player or against real people, is just mindblowing. Then there is the modelling of car cockpits. Just wow. That said, I fully get why people prefer flatscreen. For all the reasons you posit. For streamers it must be a no-brainer, and for coaching it must make life so much easier. This video is possibly the fairest I've seen talking about the pros and cons. I think the best solution - cost aside - is to have both. Some downtime, just enjoying the fun factor of VR to get away from the pressures of competitive racing. Great video, coach. EDIT: I am a console user, with the PSVR2. Don't hold that against me
The only people that hold it against you are people who don't own PSVR2's 😅 there isn't a better headset for racing. I have literally tried them all lol
I use both. There are advantages and disadvantages to both of them. I don't want to be rude, but unless you tried triples, (which on a console is not even possible) you won't really understand them. If you have a nice rig and a good triple screen setup, it gets pretty immersive too.
Console or pc does not matter in these. But i am playing videogames for 34 years started at 5 years old. So i do think its way harder to adapt to 2D screenview if you did not grow up from young age with it. But for me, the 2D vs 3D effect is so small. My brain is completely adapted to it. I am happy there is alteast one advantage of playing al those years! 😅
@@Jo-Jo-Joris-87 ha! That's fascinating! I have been playing video games for probably 28 years and I feel the complete opposite. I am in the top 100 fastest in the world in any racing sim and I have been racing in real life from the time I was 6 years old and racing in games for the same amount of time. 99% of that time on flat screens.. I kept trying to get my dad involved and he would watch me and just be like there's no way what you are doing is realistic. Like he couldn't process how I was doing it. And now that I have switched to VR for the last 2 years give or take, when I see someone playing on a flat screen I'm thinking to myself "How did I ever do this? How is this person doing this?" I tried to go back to a flat screen and I can't even do it. My brain just refuses to go back. I'm at a point where it's difficult for me to even play any video game on a flat screen. I am constantly looking for VR because it's like anything in flat screen just doesn't feel worth it anymore. But when I see people racing on a flat screen it blows my mind because I can't believe I ever did it lol
Optimum just did a video with this headset too. He found a similar problem with tracking but came to a slightly different conclusion, saying that the tracking had a low refresh rate. He switched to an external "lighthouse" tracker and it apparently fixed the tracking.
@@janneviinikainen7783 AS OF 2024, SUPPORT FOR OPENXR TOOLKIT IS DISCONTINUED. THERE IS NO NEW DEVELOPMENT AND NO TECH SUPPORT OF ANY SORT. THE DEVELOPER DOES NOT RECOMMEND TO INSTALL/USE OPENXR TOOLKIT, AS IT IS KNOWN TO CAUSE ISSUES WITH MANY OF THE NEWER GAMES RELEASED IN SINCE 2024.
AS OF 2024, SUPPORT FOR OPENXR TOOLKIT IS DISCONTINUED. THERE IS NO NEW DEVELOPMENT AND NO TECH SUPPORT OF ANY SORT. THE DEVELOPER DOES NOT RECOMMEND TO INSTALL/USE OPENXR TOOLKIT, AS IT IS KNOWN TO CAUSE ISSUES WITH MANY OF THE NEWER GAMES RELEASED IN SINCE 2024.
I have the crystal light, the shaking is caused by pimaxs terrible inside out tracking. Make sure no direct lighting towards your headset and reduce the monitor brightness, it fixed the problem for me.
Important: Neck Motion setting in iRacing with VR: 25%, with screens: 0%. And if possible get base stations + lighthouse faceplate for better tracking. Also get Comfort Topstrap for crystal and some fans for your face-speed will feel better and u will sweat less(I use 2x 1500rpm pc fans). I use both Crystal and triples on motion platform :)
I haven't noticed any shaking while on VR. I started using Idex, then G2 and now PCL. I've also tried, single, superultra wide and triples, for me nothing compares to VR. Maybe I arrived to my max iR but the satisfaction of feeling inside the car is priceless.
Had no issues with shaking on a Quest 3 while driving. I only noticed it when looking back at a live stream, the perspective looks different and has a ton of shaking in it. As you mentioned, I found VR very easy to use because it felt like I could see distance better and freely look at my surroundings. I swapped to a single monitor so I didn't have to constantly setup VR every time I wanted to race, but it was definitely very easy and intuitive to pick up and race with.
As a quest 2 user i dont have to worry about the headset shaking, and my horizon always feels extremely stable. Quest headsets will probably be in most users price range. A quest 2/3 will always be the better budget option than triple monitor setup. I can run iracing with low ish settings, 120hz with my quest 2. I cant recommend it enough,
You will need a 3rd party headstrap for a quest 2/3, the stock headsets comfort is awful, and it will shake all over your face. (these are pretty cheap tho)
@@indofunnystuff you will need to run the sim in a lower resolution to be able to get a decent frame rate. The problem with VR is you can't have variable frame rates. It needs to run at the refresh rate you pick and I recommend at least 90hz for a good experience. Also, since Meta quest needs to compress and decompress the video stream, your CPU needs to be a good one as well. I had some issues with my Ryzen 5 5600 to run at 120 Hz. So I upgraded to a 5700x3d
@@indofunnystuff No it won't be nowhere near enough. I had an rtx2070 and had to upgrade to a 4070 super to be able to run a Rift S smoothly (which is a 5 year old low resolution headset). I still can't race iRacing in the rain. The cpu is for VR even more important than the GPU and I need to upgrade that too. For a quest 2 for example, you would need at least a 5800X3D cpu, to be able to run a race in the rain on lower Graphics settings without to much stuttering. Racing in the dry is not as demanding, but still. Benchmark Odysseys has a good video on that. It's called iRacing VR with 8 CPU's. Hes testing with a Vlave index which has an even lower resolution than the Quest 2, and he's using a 4080 to exclude bottlenecking. Watch it and you will get an idea.
I’ve been on the fence about VR since the Quest 3 came out. After reading these comments, I’m glad I haven’t pulled the trigger. Are they really that cheap, flimsy, and uncomfortable?
Not sure about iRacing, but the Content Manager for Assetto Corsa has an option to configure the shakiness in a way that the horizon doesn't shake but the car appears to be shaking. I don't have a high end VR headset (it's just a Quest 2) but I'll never go back to triple monitors, and the main reason is that I can be more precise when aiming for the apex.
I have VR and triple screens. I use both but triple screens are just comfortable to use with Sim Racing. I have DCS and triple screens is out the question and VR is a must. DCS have controllable cockpits which makes VR a must. I’m using Primax Crystal Light which is the best VR set for your money.
I've been flipping between the two setups for years.. will spend months on one or the other, but always come back to VR. For whatever reason I'm just plain faster in VR. I suspect it's the ability to better see corners, having depth perception. I carry more speed in corners and can get the car to limit more consistently in VR. All that said, you have to have rock-solid head tracking and frame rate, no stutters!
The shakiness boils down to two factors. Weight and tracking. The heavier the headset, the more inert it is. The more inert it is, the shakier it feels. The headset simply lags behind head movements, it literally wobbles on your head with each movement. The inside out tracking is slow and imprecise. The processing of camera images for tracking takes a lot computing power and introduces a lag. Additionally, there might be ambiguities in that image processing leading to even more jerkiness. Actaully, Bigscreen Beyond solves both those issues, being super light and having lighthouse tracking. It's the first headset I've worn with no percievable shakiness.
It’s more than that though. I’ve noticed VR tracking has no smoothing. Every tiny movement is a quick jerk. But that’s not how our eyes see the world, it’s smooth and stable like a gimbal. Maybe it’s not possible yet to smooth out the tracking motion because it’s too computationally expensive? Or creates too much lag? But hopefully something can be done in the future.
@@maynardewm of course there is motion smoothing in vr. for example in the openxr toolkit. you guys just have to troubleshoot for a bit before accusing a whole technology for a drawback that only exists because you chose the wrong settings.
thats just bs sorry. base station tracking has zero advantage for headset tracking. tracking also does not take up any computing power since it takes place in the headset chip.
I use a Varjo Aero and do not plan to go back to flat screen for sim racing. I enjoy being IN the car. I added butt kickers for more immersion. I haven't experienced any shaking in vr. Great video.
Thanks for your summary assessment that VR is better than single screen. I had no idea you had been on VR in iracing. I've been singularly using VR since PSVR2 for GT7 came out. Now I'm purely PCVR on AC, ACC and AMS2
Hey Suellio! I do VR stuff, and what you're talking about @5:08 is due to the nature of VR headsets having the weight so far forward and extended from your face, causing inertia and delayed movement when your head shakes around (your head moves first, and the headset moves slightly later as it gains momentum to "keep up" with your head movement). This issue is removed with 1 VR headset, the Bigscreen Beyond - which I currently own. This is because it's a VR headset that is TINY (look it up), sits super close to your face, and weighs a fraction of what the Pimax weighs (the Beyond VR headset weighs less than your phone) at 127g (yes, only 127 grams). Anyway, just writing this to make note that there are better VR headsets than the Pimax for racing and other sims. The Bigscreen Beyond also has pancake lenses and OLED displays, so night time racing is incredible and the colors are very nice. The Bigscreen Beyond completely eliminates that delayed visual information you were talking about since it is custom molded to your face perfectly, and so tiny that it doesn't have weight inertia happening. Just wanted to mention this since VR is my passion, and it's always good to educate others on the subject 😁 I would love to see a follow up video if you ever try out a Bigscreen Beyond - I'd love to hear your thoughts on it for racing sims regarding that issue you found at 5:08 ☺
I have a simple Quest 2 Headset and the tracking is very smooth, absolutely no shaking and there is no delay when you turn your head. Might be a Pimax tracking issue.
I currently race with a VR headset. The original strap was not the best and came lose on longer races. This is entirely down to the strap design. I bought a halo strap for my own comfort and it gets nice and tight on my face. The shakiness you mentioned is not there anymore and any head movement is intentional.
Same, I was constantly adjusting the stock headstrap and was very aware of the extra inertia wobble. Going to the boboVR style headstrap was a massive improvement. My only complaint with VR is the latency and response time compared to monitors, that is getting better with each generation and is better on headsets not named the Quest which don't have to stream PCVR to the headset and decompress the stream.
@@Dietrichzw Don`t get a Quest for Sim Racing. Get a PCVR headset with display port connection and you have 0 compression artifacts and very low latency. Quest is a standalone headset that can also stream PCVR .
If you lower your graphic settings a bit to be able to up the refresh rate to at least 90 hz you will not have a lag higher than a high refresh rate monitor.
same. the basic quest 3 strap put so much pressure on the head, while a ratcheting one keeps it tighter but somehow also with less felt pressure, removing any headaches
I haven't particularly noticed the horizon shaking (quest 3), but will look out for it this evening. Wonderful review! I just want to add a couple of points (against VR, even though I love it and it's my favorite mode of racing): - darn near impossible to add third party overlays. I know there's some trick with open kneeboard, but it's very cumbersome and i haven't figured it out yet tbh. It shouldn't be this hard. - inconsistent positioning. Every time I put my quest on, i have to adjust the height and angle of my POV. (Example, it may begin by placing me closer to the wheel and facing slightly right). It's easy to adjust, but I'm assuming I'm not getting the same POV each time like you would with fixed triples. Because of these slightly different POVs i usually have to tweak my reference points before any race. I'm sure that's costing me some consistency/time. - when you have the headset on, you are isolated from the world. I'm currently on a G920 wheel so I'm not giving up too much, but if you're someone with an advanced wheel, a button box, etc. You're not going to see any of this during a VR race, so you'll probably have to rely a lot more on muscle memory. For me if they made VR friendly overlays and positioning presets (like memory seating) that would probably solve most of my issues with VR at the level that i am at.
>"We will never forget the first experience in VR" Man, not only did I not forget it, I can still taste it when I think off it (sadly for me, motion sickness kicked in and I ended up above the bucket).
It is possible to get over motion sickness. I had similar symptoms like you in the beginning. I recommend using a fan that blows wind in your face. I still use it when I use my Psvr2. And maybe try something other than racing in the beginning. And short sessions. It is a shame that vr create motion sickness for alot of people because I think it's absolutely amazing.
@@MrTystRacing sadly, a lot of people, including myself, don't really realize how you have to break yourself in on VR and if you don't, you can give yourself such a bad experience you may never go back
@@RandyMagruder Yeah I understand completely. I had the exact same feelings. Like "This is so cool but I'm gonna puke soon" 😆. I hope they find solutions to it on future headsets even though they have improved already.
I went from VR to a 49” monitor. Doing a lot of endurance races comfort became a much bigger factor. Whilst some overlays are now working in VR being able to easily access the easily available data on ultra wide is nice. The biggest thing I miss is being able to naturally turn my head slightly to check where a driver to my side is.
That shakiness is why I am still using Oculus CV1 instead of my HP Reverb, on CV1 there is Zero shaking of horizon, ON Reverb on the other hand, I would need to run motion compensation. IO think itys because with Oculus I can mount the sensor on the rig, but Reverb has inside out tracking
I have been doing iRacing for over four years, until recently always in VR. I started with the original Oculus Quest (!) and then a Reverb G2 since it launched. Microsoft has announced they are dropping WMR from windows, which forced me to consider what would be next after G2. This video convinced me to take the plunge with triples. I'm about one week in now, and so far it feels like the right choice for me. FWIW, I relied a lot on Dan Suzuki's UA-cam videos and his discord to decide on the equipment and how to set up the triples. I feel that saved me significant number of hours and I was able to get things dialed really fast.
I'm hoping for the moment a vr headset company creates a helmet design specifically for simracing, maybe something with mixed reality where you can see your rig and the game world at the same time.
The shakiness part is something I've never been able to explain to people why I didn't like VR, you put it so perfectly. A stable horizon to look down the road to is very important
As a race car driver i can confirm flat screens are like black and white TV's and VR is well.. VR.. there really isn't a comparison. The reality is some people just can't use VR without getting sick and that sucks especially if they love racing. Also, some people just learn they aren't that fast with that much information being provided. Most people need things like radars and indicators on the screen to tell them where other people are on the track because they don't have the skills to be aware of their surroundings lol.. which is kind of the entire point of race car driving. So with that being said, VR isn't even something comparable to a flat screen because the screen is flat. Even a three panel screen won't do. I rarely use my mirrors in VR. I am always spinning my head around. Which obviously you can't do in a race car but you have the sound and the feel and you can literally feel the cars around you and that's just not there with a three panel setup. In VR there are enough reflections to determine if there is a car around you without even using the mirrors or really even looking at all you can just see the lighting change in the cockpit of your vehicle in the way that isn't visible and you can't sense without VR. The amount of speed I can carry into my braking zones is unreal and the amount of immersiveness of VR just puts it on an entirely different ballpark. The fact they are even being compared is to please the flat screen players that actually think they can compete without a flat screen lol.. another thing is people are so dedicated for so long to doing things one way The plasticity in their brains is lost and they refuse to learn anything new because it's like slow and sluggish and painful. So they deny it because they are slow and they aren't used to being slow and they aren't used to having to learn so they don't. They lack all of the things a real race car driver needs. All of the top split can keep their flat screens. They aren't race car drivers😅
@@karner1541 I use 3Drap rumblers. Motion will mess up eye tracking and environment lock. A moving rig just changes all of the set alignments that the VR headset or you have in relation to the screen you are looking at. I'd stay away from motion. It's really just making micro screw ups.
Intresting because I race in very cheap VR headset ( bought used G2 reverb) and I'm not experiencing any horizon shaking at all. If i strap tight and settings are right ( refresh rate and stable 90fps) everything is smooth af. Only downsize is a bit narrow field of view. Also a month ago I actually bought triple 27inch and spent like a week setting them up in correct position and angle. And to be fair... I just hated it, I was slower, I didnt feel the speed or car and it just felt like some random game not a race simulation and I ended up returing them. I really recommend anyone planning to get triples after using VR to first try it out.
Something is missing here.. the transition from advanced VR racer back to screens.. to get to the absolute top level. I can be pretty quick AND consistent in VR. As soon as I switch to the screen, I lose 1 second, and I make a lot of mistakes. But then again, I'm not racing for real. Great video
People like James Baldwin that race on higher level than him like Spa 24 , British GT in real life use VR for real race preparation (i think he have cv1) and monitors for e-sports. But everybody its different. I personally prefer VR (had a reverb g2 now primax cristal / 4090) but i not agree the cost its the same bcs you can run trippples on 3080 but for VR you need 4090 .
@@martintop2605 i run a 4090 as well. How is your tracking with the cristal? The light you have? Sometimes there is such a topic about real vs sim. 99.9% of us never going te xp real racing like gt3. Do like the idea that pros use vr before racing
@@martintop2605 thanks for saying this. I disagree with a lot of what he said, and I made a lengthier comment here, with one point being the cost. As someone who's invested tons of time and money into VR this video honestly pissed me off big time.
@@SimracingArnout The tracking in crystal its much better than in G2, the camera its not drifting from the correct position. Also the fov its wider and higher. I think VR helps you with driving any car even on the road bcs it feels more natural for the brain.
I had the Oculus Rift, Meta Quest 2, Lenovo Explorer, Samsung Odyssey+, HP Reverb and now I've the Reverb G2. The point you comment in the video of shaking it happens mainly by two factors: how tightly you have the visor attached, and how accurate the tracking is at that moment. In general, you will have the visor attached comfortable enough for your head, and the tracking will be never perfect. So yes, it's a problem that will happen depending on the setup (it's not the shaking effect, as some comments point, it's a shaking from the physical input, when you move your head when pressing a pedal for example). From my part, the big issue that I notice from those headsets, is the tracking. Sometimes, you start to lose the initial position, even much worse, you lose the tracking completely. For those cases, I've a button to quickly press when this happens. Another big issue is the performance. I've a 3090 and I can't play games like ACC. In other sims like AC or iRacing I've to lower the settings to have a smooth constant 90fps the most of the time, but the fps dropdowns happens. Despite all this, I still much prefer the immersion that VR provides.
Bit late I know. I'm a PCL owner (it's going back). The tracking on this headset is utterly useless. The main reason for this is the fact the inside-out tracking computation is done on the PC, and not on the headset. This is why there is noticeable lag when you' move your head. The way to partially fix this is to use Lighthouses and the Lighthouse tracking faceplate (sold separately), and to use the comfort headstrap, and 3rd party facial interface inserts and facial interface foam, to improve comfort. In fairness, pretty much no Meta headset I have ever owned has been comfortable out of the box (the Rift wasn't too bad I guess), and they all required a 3rd party headstrap to be useable. The PCL may not be fixable to that degree tbh.
One more point about VR, once I've tried it I've noticed all positive and negative sides described in the video, but a bit later I've also noticed that I've started to drive more consistent and fast using monitor as well
Very quickly after getting into sim racing I upgraded from a single screen to vr. For the last year I used VR thinking I would hate a single screen but recently I tried and honestly i've enjoyed it more. The thing is, I did not think VR was uncomfortable or anything, but once I was able to sit completely free, easily browse my desktop, use my phone etc I realised that for me currently maybe VR is not my goto. I think in a few years VR will be really good though once the FOV gets better and gpu's get stronger again. Currently running a 3080 and it's often a big comprimise to get good performance at the expennse of bad visuals. Oddly enough I found I was also faster on a monitor too.
Great stuff as always Suellio! Don’t let the few bad apples who misunderstand your intentions get you down man. The vast majority of us know you’re in it to coach and not to pitch products. Keep up the good work!
Need to try PSVR2. Definitely top of the line for racing. I put it above prime because of the lack of eye tracking and fake movements you were talking about. Plus the lights are like actually lights. The OLED makes it look like there are real electronics in the cockpit instead of something you can tell is being projected on a screen.
@@t00thr0t haha dude I don't mean to be rude but the quest is absolutely horrendous. I would say it's the worst headset you can buy for racing actually. It doesn't get worse than the quest lol... The LCD from the early 2000's has terrible contrast and the colors are bland and the horizon will never render. Field of view is significantly smaller and there's no eye tracking which is essential for keeping your position in the vehicle stationary so that you're interpretation of inertia is correct. I could go on and on about how terrible the quest 3 is. Kind of sucks because all of the games and the accessibility and the functionality of the device is incredible. I would say the best of all headsets. But the hardware itself is like the worst of all headsets. It's like Gran Turismo. The best current Sim racing game available and also the worst sim racing game ever made 🤣 we are in weird times my friend
@@nighttrain1565 Sure contrast etc is better but motion quality gets worse with higher brightness which is more important for me personally. Casual Sim Racer made a nice comparison for iRacing
I can just double down on your statement here. I started my sim racing career with triple screens and was struggling a lot to find pace and a field of view that I felt comfortable with. Then, thanks to a friend, I switched to a VR headset with a Lighthouse system (this might also make a difference for the shakiness you are talking about, as the Pimax comes with inside-out tracking, and you have to get a Lighthouse front plate in order to use the more precise Lighthouse tracking). But the point was, only then was I actually able to get feedback for my inputs and have an effect on the car - to really understand how gas and brakes rotate the car as everything was moving so much more naturally around me. After a year of using it, I gained several seconds, allowing me to get much closer to e-sports times. Currently, I have a 49-inch monitor (to avoid the hassle of triple screens), and now that I've had time to learn and understand car behavior in VR, I'm as fast with monitors as I am in VR. However, the mental capacity is much better now, especially in races - you literally don’t "overheat" in stressful situations. Also, kudos Suellio for how you combined actual information with sponsorship. This was a really well-made video!
Regarding the shaking: We have to first differentiate the different sources of it. First there is the shaking of the ingame camera. This is caused, because the ingame camera is in some way connected to the reference frame of the car. This can be controlled and configured mostly by using RealHeadMotion. The 2 extremes would be either 1: 100% locked to the car (each bump will move the horizon up and down) and 2: 100% locked to horizon (absolutely no movement of the horizion, but driving up a hill requires you to look up, which again is not very realistic). The sweetspot will be somewhere in between with some clever damping algorithms involved (RHM is quite good at that) Then there is external shaking, if you're for example using a motion rig. This is affected by the type of tracking you are using, as well as motion compensation and the type of headset. A bigger, bulkier one like the cristal will allways tend to swing around due to its inertia. As for the rest of the video: Really well structured comparison and i totally agree on all the points. Maybe you could've gone a bit more in depht into the topic of depth perception and its effect on the ability to judge distances when driving closely to other cars. That's to me the most important selling poing of VR and why i would never switch to 2D, as i would probably keep rearending other cars for at least half a year ^^
First thing to change in VR in iracing (and every other sim) it's the "neck effect", I have my personal settings which works much better than default one, but that's beside the point. I agree 100% on this video, unlike some other statement said before. I would like to know what's the irating between an intermediate level and a top level driver. Cheers!
Excellent video. I'm into sim racing for over 26 years now. I come from a time where online racing worldwide was a group so small, I knew them all by name 😂 In the early days of FFB the really fast guys hated it, made them slower. That's exactly the same with any development in sim racing, be it VR or a motion platform. You are the first serious racer who's honest, to be among the fastest drivers, you want to be as far from realism as possible. You want to sit without body movement, without horizontal viewing movement. The goal to be fast in sim racing has NOTHING to do with looking for a simulation of the real deal. It requires a level of precision unparalleled in real race cars, they give you much more room to slide and correct. In my setup it's about being as close to realism as possible. You need earplugs for the engine sound, my motion platform will wear you out like crazy, your vision will be blurred at Sebring from all the bumps. You won't be racing 5 hours, if you can make 2 hours, I'm really impressed. The ultimate question is, do you want to be fast, or do you want to "simulate" a race car? By the way, I do have experience on real tracks, The Nordschleife the most as I live next to it.
VR superiority for racing sims were self-evident when we got first generation VRs 4 years ago. It is nice that youtubers finally catch on with new technologies. The cost of a triple set up alone is astronomical and impractical for anyone, but most hardcore of fans. VR takes that biggest part away and replaced with universal tool which you can use anywhere.
So, I race in VR pretty much full time ever since i got it. im a novice Iracing driver and maybe the shakes are headset specific, i use the index and its fairly stable, never noticed any out of place movements. but VR gives you so much more "feel". the pro 2 and pro 4 trucks feel better to drive in VR over monitors in my opinion.
Quest 3 can be used standalone, for sim racing, for games like half life alyx, mods for games like cyberpunk or to learn piano with pianovision. A triple monitor setup only has one purpose and is far more expensive. Quest 3 is a no brainer right now. If youre unsure the quest3s is a steal too.
This is obvious to most drivers in Sim within a year or so. If you progress as a Sim racer triple monitors become the only option. I have always said VR for fun as a side gig if you can afford it and Trips for everything else. There is no contest properly setup Trips are the way to go for a main rig, versatility, ease, on and on the better choice.
Try the psvr2, less resolution but shakiness has no delay and after sometime I firget I have a vr, just pretend its the helmet, I can drive competitively for hours
So I certainly haven't been to the top 0.05% level esports competitions, but I have participated in SRO GTWC eSports America in ACC , and have friends who use VR who have done the same in both the American and European championships, and I feel quite strongly that VR is not a hinderance at this level as long as the framerate is high enough, 90fps at the very minimum. Personally, I can say that simply would never have made it to the level I'm at now without VR. I've never tried triples, but in my experience the phantom sense you get from being IN the car and feeling it move beneath you is just something you can't get on a single monitor.
Yeah, I tend to agree with you and I think it's a little bit naive to say you can't be as good at high levels with VR. Endurance racing for 6 hours 4 hours even I can completely understand not using VR and that is a true issue for many... But for consistency and speed in races I disagree personally. I know I know esports drivers don't use it but that issue is complicated as well. Every esport driver would need to have a 4090 PC and the latest greatest VR HMD at home and in competition or it wouldn't be fair. Also, no one would be able to see their faces at these Esport games. Blah blah. It's just easier to have A fair race with everybody using the same monitor/pc setup. I'm not that interested in esports myself so I'm just guessing.
@@frankzappa2274 what I will say is that practicing for more than 2 or 3 hours in VR is kind of sweaty and uncomfortable, I can imagine it getting annoying to put in esports prep hours in VR every day.
@MrJoppashoppa that's totally fair, I've never tried triples but honestly if they do give that phantom sense I can definitely see why most pros would prefer it. I can ultimately only comfortably drive like 3 hours a day in VR and that just isn't enough for how competitive professional sim racing is now
@@MiaReiFilms i wouldn't call esports sim racing. They are not simulating racing in esports. Using all kinds of HUDs, not relying solely on the infos given by their race engineer. No motion rig, sometimes even cockpit view is not recommended, and probably more i am not thinking about right now. Esports is esports, but not simulation of rl racing on screen.
Strap your headseat down correctly to your head. May use an other strap and switch from inside out tracking to ouside in. Basically lighthouse. Then all your VR problems evaporate. Using the even larger Pimax 8KX, which is a stone compared to smaller crystal. And when strapped correctly to the head and used with lighthouse, there is no issue at all. Sure this is additional work and expanse, but considering what everything else costs, I dont think it matters in this discussion. An other sidefact about the 8KX: It has a larger FOV than I have with ma daily glasses and definitely more than you get in a helmet. Cant get more visual imersion like this headset, even less in a real car (because of the helmet or because of my glasses).
The only time i've ever had VR shaking is when it wasn't tight enough so was physically shaking on my head. One click on my strap and it's fixed. I use a Valve Index though, which uses 2 base stations for tracking which makes it extremely precise. You're right about the physical stuff though, man it gets sweaty in there. And eyebrow sweat dropping into your eye is the worst! I hope Valves next headset resolves as much as possible.
I also use an index, back in the day some people made fans which attached to the USB in the front of it. you might be able to find something like that if you look for it
Wow your explanation of the shake in VR is exactly why I went with triple monitors I’m really curious to know what you think of my monitor setup with 80 degree side screens. I think it gives a more realistic sense of peripheral vision and directionality compared to a wider angle setup.
You can enable camera horizon lock in %, in some sims (not so sure about iRAcing). For example, car shaking in AMS2 due to track uneven surface is so wild, it completely ruins the immersion for me, so I've set horizon lock to 50%, and it's better, but still far from perfect. There is something weird going with the view when you lock to horizon, lateral movement are kind of jerky in AMS2, so I can't feel the grip properly. All in all, it's all up to how developers implemented the camera (view) behavior.
As someone who plays Gran Turismo exclusively using the VR I do want to point out something that I think a lot of people miss. There is something in VR that I'm sure could be an advantage in real life but in the game does sometimes slow me down and that's the fact that I'm a little bit more afraid of crashing. Not a lot but at a subconscious level I'm breaking a little bit earlier or being a little bit more apprehensive with a throttle. I'm definitely faster than VR but that's because I'm beginner to intermediate but I have noticed that VR forces you to be a little bit more courageous to make each corner. My guess is that if you were training for the real world that would probably give you better information to use
I'm using the Quest 3 coming from the 2 and blown away how clear it is. I do have a 4090 and a 5800X3D so settings are maxed out on the game and headset. I almost exclusively use Assetto Corsa with Content Manager and CSP. I'm not getting the head shake as you are and as you describe, it's from the the headset itself. I see there's some suggestions below on how to address that. Although I only race in VR, I would never do a 5 hour race using any media but can understand using monitors in that case. Good luck with your career.
For me, turning up the FFB on a DD wheel makes the shakiness much worse. In VR most games are fine, but put FFB into the mix and the vibrations that get up to the headset are quite disorienting.
I use the PSVR2 and did not notice an issue with the “shakiness”. I like using both VR and single screen (65” tv at 120hz very close to my wheel). I like VR better but it’s nice to not wear something on your face every now and then
@SuellioAlmeida I'm an Iracer..not the best but i enjoy the adrenalin....just wanted to say that the real life racing in the radical that you have done and that final race...better than any f1...that was awesome and to hold those pro's off like you did....amazing...just subscribed and now away to binge watch and hopefully pick up some tips. well done
Great review. I left vr to stream and record content for like 6 months and went back to VR w the reverb g2…doubled down on the BSB…can’t go back ever again. Can’t wait till v2…
I got 21:9 monitor recently, because I'm racing on a budget. Highly recommend if you're tight on money, but want to improve from a single 16:9 monitor. The one I got is MSI Optix MAG301RF, it has a quite huge discount here in Germany. 200Hz Rapid IPS with G-Sync/MPRT. Very happy with it!
I still have a 27in 144hz (1440p) one, but my coworker lost the glasses. The best part (to watch) was the Nvidia demo for them, I will say it looked better than VR. Given this was a long time ago, 980TI days with Witcher 3. The game was awesome except for the readable dialogue part, it did not put the txt on a flat plane in front of you. For instance: Having to read and choosing what option you want to respond with would have the txt go far away to a building then a few letters one the person your talking to the way back to the building. But having multiple VR headsets over the years, I would really love to try the 3d again, especially if my current monitor supported it (Samsung Odyssey G9 57in) .
I had this shaking effect with G2, but not in quest 3. Its a tracking issue. But still, agreeing most of this stuff. Was using cv1 and valve index for maybe 2 years. Then move to monitor(s). Everyting is so much simple and im faster with those. Still own quest 3 tho. Sometimes i use it for the kicks. But usually those kicks goes away pretty soon.
Optimum Tech just did a video on the same headset and he also complained about the lag and the tracking. He solved the problem by using a base station from a valve index which is a lot less laggy than the built-in tracking in the pi Max.
In VR the shakiness is actually one thing I have been thinking about. The brain and eyes have a natural stability function which the VR don't have which make it feel and look weird. I haven't tried VR yet but his video proves it anyway. I wonder if something similar to a picture stability function that many video cameras have would actually solve this problem? VR giving a sense of depth and all that but monitors should feel more natural anyway. But I feel if you are both tight in space and budget but still want maximum experience VR has to be the way to go.
For me (not very competitive simracer) there is one another big argument for VR. I simply doesn't have space to setup whole rig. In VR i can just take my wheel stand pro from the closed, put it in front of my coach and just race. I doesn't have to put my wheel stand in front of a tv or setup anything. After racing i just fold my wheel stand witch my wheel, put in the closed with my quest 2 and my wife is happy :).
Thanks for pointing out the difference. You saved me some frustration if i had taken the plunge. I guess I will stick with the MetaQ3 till something more suitable turns up for VR as I prefer immersion and realism. I have been wondering about the Pimax headsets but held back just due to needing lighthouses and high price tag and wondered about if it is worth it for sim racing anyway. Best of luck with your RL racing. Always makes me happy to see sim racers do well in RL racing.
I use a quest 2 connected to my 3080 and it is a great in game experience. However, the quest link system and cable are sometimes very finicky. The software for the link is very inconsistent and sometimes just doesn’t want to connect some days. Keep that in mind if that’s what you want a quest for
Subjective, but I just can't get over the comfort issue with long term VR use. I can't even stand wearing glasses, so I'm an extreme case. That said, I use triples and have a VR for some fun immersive short stints. I am noticeable faster in VR, but comfort and enjoyment is more important to me.
I recently bought a PSVR2 headset for sim racing because of the recently added PC support. For me, I think it's a great training tool to get that last extra bit of track knowledge to be able to use every last centimeter of the track in a big event, you just don't get that sense of how close a wall is with monitors. But for actual racing, I still prefer monitors because as Suellio said VR is more physically draining to use.
The IMU sensor of the headset being offset and that offset not being compensated for in software is a huge eye opener and deal breaker! Wow! Thank you for the in depth review. Do other VR glasses suffer from the same issue?
My rig is set up in a semi-truck and I couldn't use triples even if I preferred them. I imagine others are space confined too. VR is honestly amazing technology, I was lucky enough to experience the Oculus DK2 and CV1 Rift before they sold to Meta. Ended up with a Quest 3 now, it has some issues but the tracking does okay and it's reliable enough to run endurance races with.
VR racing is super immersive. However I'll take screens over VR any day simply as it's much easier to grab a drink. Especially for other driving stuff like truck simulators, VR has to be modded in and enjoying a cup of coffee while hauling across the roads can be much more straining in VR.
i had both, first single then VR and now triples. I enjoyed VR but I see some personal advantages in triples. Overlays work without any problem, i can interact with my wife and kid and I am still in the room with them, the Picturequality is much better, I can easily let visitors try the sim (in VR everyone got sick) and for me the most important its just easier to get in the sim for a 15 min training, turning on all the vr software and sometime calibrate and put on the Headset was quite annoying. But nothing beats the immersion of VR and the depth perception. From the price I dont think a pimax would be cheaper than triples...
The shakiness IS a big thing I’ve also been through multiple headsets and it’s the biggest reason I don’t use VR. The weight is the 2nd biggest factor. You are defo not alone.
I look at this from the simple perspective of I simrace because I can't afford to do the real thing. If I'm not the fastest out there, oh well, I just want to feel like I'm driving a race car. VR is the clear winner there. It just also has the bonus of also making it easier for me to be fast than screens do.
What is better is what works for you and brings you the most enjoyment, whether it is through immersion or through better accuracy and lap times… or both.
I haven't experienced the shakiness that you are describing. I would say that in VR I change configuration to introduce horizon lock and also how connected the vr headset is to the car
I use oculus 2 and the shakiness doesn’t seem too bad. Overall though after switching to an ultra wide curved monitor there is a greater level of stability to the FOV. For someone who has never raced in a real car the difference is minuscule. Comfort and eye strain are the main downsides. Upsides are less reliance on visual markers for breaking and an easier time adapting to battling through corners. Still after moving to the ultra wide monitor I prefer the upsides of that more. Easier to use better visual quality and hopefully upgrading to triples
Hmmm, good points tho. Personally i want the most immersion i can get out of a game and rather take a break after 1-2 hours of playing. Even tho it is exhausting with a VR on the head and all that stuff, may even sweating, i just take it as a realism and immersionfactor aswell. Interestingly for me i get sick of driving in 2D, like im starting to feel uncomfortable doing so after some hours, especially the lack of any head movement makes my neck really stiff. When i drive for longer sessions in VR, my neck isnt geting stiff and i do not have motionsickness after geting off the chair. The weight on the head doesnt bother me that much, like my neck is well trained, the weight only matters in terms of seatcomfort, so i need to get some new straps or sth. When it comes to performance i also noticed, that im driving way faster and more consistent with the use of VR but thats just the issue of only owning one screen, not beeing able to see the apex alot of times, yet barely ever see other drivers next to me. But to me performance isnt the 1st point of interest, because my performance is only high if i enjoy a game, if i do not i can straight up stop playing because it is pointless to begin. I feel like the Meta Quest 3 is a really good starting device for VR, the lenses are in such a extreme quality, that it doesnt even collect a single dustcorn after 3-4 weeks of use. Visuals are very clean and crisp for a VR, sure its not as good as a normal screen and its not going to compete with a lets say LG OLED TV at all, but its geting somewhere.
Aside from my nose (possibly because I broke it 10 or so years ago), I had absolutely no issue with my Pimax 5K Super's comfort. The very first day I received it - my first VR headset ever - I raced for almost 8 hours. I get hot and sweat way more than the average person and, even then, it never occurred to me that VR headsets are warm/hot. You're racing, OBVIOUSLY you're going to get hot. I feel this is extremely over-blown by some users. Don't people's arms, legs, feet, butts, chests, etc. get hot when racing / sim racing? My entire room turns into a furnace! Yet no one complains about that...but then they put on a VR headset and all of a sudden "OMG, the headset is hot"...LOL!
I have triple screen and VR and I enjoy triple screen much more. Until VR can match 11520 x 2160 and 210fov then VR will not compare to the crisp image of my setup. Remember that the 2880 x 2880 is stretched over the fov (115) and so the stereoscopic resolution is lower. Resolution isn't just about if you can see the pixels but also about image sharpness. VR does not compare to 4K because with a screen you have more pixels in your smaller fov that the pixels sit in. While VR stretches it beyond what a screen does, so less pixels for the same view area. I am looking forward to the Pimax 12K. Wide FOV (200) and a higher resolution (6k per eye).
That shakiness might be caused because of an offset between rotation point of your head (close to your neck) and the location of the headset. I've never saw any setting that would address this offset in any VR game. And because the game only knows where the headset is and not your kneck, it renders the world only based on headset position. This might amplify the real movement of your head beyond acceptable levels. It is interesting mostly because I drive in VR for 5 years and I've never noticed it that much... though I was either on first Oculus or Quest 2, maybe Meta's hardware is better at establishing the headset location compared to pimax, or maybe I am not sensitive enough.
ACTUALLY, I did notice that once. Mirrors on open wheels in iracing can be very narrow. Pointing my head into the sky caused the headset to raise so much that mirrors showed the road instead of cars behind me. I do not move my head too much, that's probably why I do not have too many issues with that during most of the time.
I had a bad experience with the tracking on a PiMax 5k some years back - it would jitter and drift. Even the PSVR2 now has issues with PC - the video wobbles as you move your head. My Quest3 though (as was the same with my Index), feels like I'm looking through a helmet. The tracking is absolutely rock solid with zero delay or wobble. I'd recommend trying one if you ever get a chance, but I get VR is not for your situation.
I'm using a quest 2 and spent a lot of time modding assetto corsa, opencomposite and pure LCS is the way to go there for those struggling. About the horizon aspect, there's an option in AC called "Lock to horizon" which really helps with that issue, not quite sure about iracing. A good strap is absolutely necessary too AC looks and feels stunning. Only thing i cant get rid off is that horrible aliasing on some shadows and guardrails. Either way, i love VR on simracing, you can even feel the rush on elevation changes. 90fps max resolution with a 3080
I've driven on a small single screen and a projected wall. I thought the wall would be better and more immersive, but motion sickness got out of control. Has anyone had issues with VR motion sickness. I'd like to try it some day and see.
Cool video, interesting points. I'm on iracing using the PSVR2 with PC adaptor. On a 4090 so running at 120Hz = I've never experienced this shakiness. I've got no other VR experience to compare with, but the PSVR2 movement feels absolutely natural. but 100% comfort is a factor. The longest races I've done either on iracing or on GT7 are about an hour and you absolutely need to give your eyes and your head a rest after that.
I’d argue that triples are actually cheaper than vr. You can honestly find a set of triples @ 144+hz for less than 300. and probably less than 200 if you go used. Vr headsets usually cost more than that
I feel that would happen with a lot of VR headsets that are heavy because they move slightly different from your head. Probably only the Bigscreen Beyond would be able to keep up without this issue since its so small and light. Too bad the FOV is so small on it
Reading other comments that's another thing i have head about the headset you used here. You need base stations to make the tracking good. So having the base stations might have fixed this issue as well because the tracking on that headset out of the box is bad.
I’ve never noticed the horizon thing to be an issue or moving my head to cause issues in vr tbh. I will say that I absolutely love VR, every time I turn on my pc I want to play something vr related. However, for long sessions I would never use vr. It’s not always the obvious reasons but just the reason of being aware of the room and who’s there. Maybe it’s just me but I don’t like being in vr for too too long. I’m lucky enough to have triples and vr so I have the choice. If I had to choose one it would be triples BUT nothing can even come close to emulating vr. For someone that’s never tried it, so long as you test it on a decent pc to get a good frame rate (otherwise you may feel sick) it HAS to be experienced at least once. Ams2 in particular is jaw dropping. I think the big screen beyond would help for immersion as it wouldn’t feel like you even had it on. It was also help with the lack of weight with head movement. Due to the weight of a headset (even the q3), there’s a slight delay when swinging your head side to side
Thank you for this video! Moving from triples to VR seven years ago eventually killed simracing for me, because no sim really accounts for the way in which the car shakes around the body and how the neck and eyes move and greatly reduce shakiness of the horizon. Most sims have an option like "look to horizon" nowadays, but this usually introduces nausea when going down a steep hill. The only game that I know of that has physically correct neck and eye movement is star citizen (dunno if only on foot or also in cockpit view, though).
I tend to agree with you and I got this completely resolved by using now also the DOF Reality P3. There is no way I can go back anymore. The combi of VR and motion rig is top notch to be honest. Even the simulated forces of accelerating and decelerating you can feel. Of course you will never have like 2, 3 or even more G’s but the combination of the motion rig with VR tricks your brain. Next step for me will be the belt tensioner to get even more sense of forces. I can recommend everyone to try out the combination of motion rig with VR, it is truly immersive. I recently tried it all out without the motion rig and played it on 2D and everything felt lifeless and not enjoyable at all. I also was not able to find my breaking points as normal because they are within VR in my periphiral view and could not see them anymore. I also guess this is getting used to and find them elsewhere. Bottom line is that for me, I want to feel to be in there completely ;)
In AMS 2 there is something called “world slider” with this you can fixate the horizon and the shakiness goes away. Sorry I cannot help with iracing though maybe there is a similar option
Driving at a 6-7k level, I definitely see the point about the shakiness, but in my Pico Neo 3 Link it isn't at all as bad as what you describe. My pace is about equal between VR and single monitor, but of course VR is way more fun and gives more FOV, and fortunately I don't have any real comfort issues with my headset.
I don't notice the vibration, I have pico 4 so it migth react differently. One of biggest advantages of vr, is the space it requires. My rig is tightly in corner of my room, true triples with rig require almost a little roon´m
quest 2 user, not much shake, or wobble here,.. it may have to do with the strap, I use a halo strap, and in shakes a bit when I dont snug it well,... but yeah you can feel some pressure, but I use it 2 hours +/- and not a pro at all, just enjoy the experience
Note to Community
As you know I've recently posted a review of the Pimax Crystal Light in a video with an objective to compare overall VR vs Triple Monitors in Sim Racing.
I'm a racing coach, and my real (and unique) value is to teach stuff with ways of explaining that I know I'm best in class.
I'm constantly bombarded by brands to review everything you can imagine - VR headsets, Pedals, Wheels, Monitors, Headsets, Gloves, Games, Apps of all sorts, etc.
I turn down 99% of these offers, because I know that's not what I'm here for.
I don't want to follow the influencer route and just be a "sell-out" to other brands. I make my money by making drivers get better and drive faster. I have my own company and racing school with over 10 employees.
Whenever I accept any kind of free equipment to review and make content about it, it's because I really believe it could bring something positive to my community, or because I'm really curious about trying these new things or games or whatever.
I am NOT a reviewer, I'm a coach.
When I published the last VR vs Monitors video, my intention was to try to describe that comparison from a coach's perspective. And I believe I did that very well.
I had no intention of making money from Affilliates or anything like that. Because I wouldn't make anything compared to how much I can already make with my own Motor Racing Academy.
I received a uncomparable number of negative reviews and judgemental comments about how I'm spreading "misinformation for clicks" or some random stupidity like this...
I don't need clicks, I don't want clicks. I prefer 1000x time to make a video about Racecraft Analysis that gives me 10.000 views instead of trying to find forms of content that will give me 100.000 views but steer away from the objective of this channel.
I sell courses, and if it's not good for you, I give your money back 100% with absolutely no questions asked.
I'm a big believer of ethical marketing, and if you think I'm an evil sell-out or whatever you wanna call, just don't subscribe and get out of here. No one is forcing you to stay.
after all you’ve given the sim racing community FOR FREE, the response from a few has been disgraceful. i started my sim racing journey with your videos and improved to a high level with your free tips alone. i chose to pay for the course to find that last 5% and to repay you for being such a massive influence on my sim racing journey. you’ve done everything the right way suellio, people trying to damage your reputation with negative comments is shameful. your students know the truth and we appreciate you more than you could know!! you’re a huge inspiration for so many, don’t forget that ❤️
I think the shaking may just be a trait of the headset you were trying. After watching your video I went on iRacing and tried to recreate it but could not, very stable. However you raise a good point and may be an issue with some headsets. I do agree about the whole "sweat" thing. Even the super lightweight Bigscreen becomes an issue after a few hours. Great review thanks.
We know Suellio! Goos without saying! Dont focus on the negativrs. Focus on the postives. A lttle feedback is good. But if it is a dumb reaction that does not make sence. Don,t give it you time/energy. Better to react on the decent hardcore following you already have! Your not dojng great, your doing fantastic! 🙏
The shakiness of the horizon compared to IRL of it always static is something I'd never considered. Im in the middle of deciding between VR or triples, and I think I'm gonna do VR for the depth perception, and just cause VR seems an amazing future tech that will only improve over time and I wanna contribute by buying one, to make sure it isn't tech that isn't selling and gets dropped because I do think it's the future of games. Graphics is getting so good that the only next step will be further immersion into the gaming environment which VR provides. I appreciate this comparison, and nice to consider enjoying a couple years of VR and then still doing triples down the line. Love your videos and coaching, thanks for all you provide to the sim community for free. Love from Australia!
Hey @SuellioAlmeida a lot of games like for example acc have a look to horizon feature with a stability percentage that help to solve that horizon vibration you are talking about. I am on a Quest 2 so things may differ but it couldn’t hurt to try it out. Much love to you and your contect. Keep it up man💯
I do not experience this shaking AT ALL, and I not only run VR, but also a motion rig. I do use the Bigscreen Beyond, and its glued to my face. I can turn my head with 0 inertia, and the thing stays planted and focused the entire time. I do also run the audio headstrap and that really helps secure it, plus its super comfortable for longer sessions.
Same here (except I'm still waiting on my audio strap) I'd really like to see Suellio try VR again with the BSB + audio strap and get his impressions of it. I think it'd be way different with how much smaller and lighter it is
Came here to say this, glad it's not just me. I'm using a meta quest 3 with elite strap and the lenses + strap are decent for comfort and zero shaking that he talks about experiencing.
Interesting! I might try it
@@purplejw The BSB has other nightmares to deal with, though. Out of the 8 people I know who own one, 5 had to return their headsets for IPD fixes. 3 of them needed a second replacement. One of them gave up. Plus the narrow sweet spot...
unfortunately, this type of VR misinformation for clicks is what might keep other people from trying VR, which is likely what he intended anyways, clicks. I have seen other people call him out on similar click baiting with other videos. That he messed up his VR set up by having his VR strap loose, that L is on him and not on VR racing environment.
I'm almost 64 years-old, and by no means fast. Not super slow, but winning races consistently is a thing of the past, lol. I bought a VR headset a year ago, and even if I could afford triples, I wouldn't go in that direction. The immersion whilst racing, whether that be single player or against real people, is just mindblowing. Then there is the modelling of car cockpits. Just wow.
That said, I fully get why people prefer flatscreen. For all the reasons you posit. For streamers it must be a no-brainer, and for coaching it must make life so much easier.
This video is possibly the fairest I've seen talking about the pros and cons. I think the best solution - cost aside - is to have both. Some downtime, just enjoying the fun factor of VR to get away from the pressures of competitive racing. Great video, coach.
EDIT: I am a console user, with the PSVR2. Don't hold that against me
The only people that hold it against you are people who don't own PSVR2's 😅 there isn't a better headset for racing. I have literally tried them all lol
I use both. There are advantages and disadvantages to both of them. I don't want to be rude, but unless you tried triples, (which on a console is not even possible) you won't really understand them. If you have a nice rig and a good triple screen setup, it gets pretty immersive too.
Console or pc does not matter in these.
But i am playing videogames for 34 years started at 5 years old. So i do think its way harder to adapt to 2D screenview if you did not grow up from young age with it. But for me, the 2D vs 3D effect is so small. My brain is completely adapted to it. I am happy there is alteast one advantage of playing al those years! 😅
@@Jo-Jo-Joris-87 ha! That's fascinating! I have been playing video games for probably 28 years and I feel the complete opposite. I am in the top 100 fastest in the world in any racing sim and I have been racing in real life from the time I was 6 years old and racing in games for the same amount of time. 99% of that time on flat screens.. I kept trying to get my dad involved and he would watch me and just be like there's no way what you are doing is realistic. Like he couldn't process how I was doing it. And now that I have switched to VR for the last 2 years give or take, when I see someone playing on a flat screen I'm thinking to myself "How did I ever do this? How is this person doing this?" I tried to go back to a flat screen and I can't even do it. My brain just refuses to go back. I'm at a point where it's difficult for me to even play any video game on a flat screen. I am constantly looking for VR because it's like anything in flat screen just doesn't feel worth it anymore. But when I see people racing on a flat screen it blows my mind because I can't believe I ever did it lol
@@nighttrain1565have you tried the Quest 3? How does it compare with PSVR2?
Optimum just did a video with this headset too. He found a similar problem with tracking but came to a slightly different conclusion, saying that the tracking had a low refresh rate. He switched to an external "lighthouse" tracker and it apparently fixed the tracking.
Yeah, trackers are pretty expensive though, and that's not a cheap headset to begin with.
Yes, tracking is probably being the culprit here. Also could try to use openxr toolkit prediction dampning for smoothing out the shakiness.
Lighthouse tracking FTW.
@@janneviinikainen7783 AS OF 2024, SUPPORT FOR OPENXR TOOLKIT IS DISCONTINUED. THERE IS NO NEW DEVELOPMENT AND NO TECH SUPPORT OF ANY SORT. THE DEVELOPER DOES NOT RECOMMEND TO INSTALL/USE OPENXR TOOLKIT, AS IT IS KNOWN TO CAUSE ISSUES WITH MANY OF THE NEWER GAMES RELEASED IN SINCE 2024.
But neither is triple monitors with the stands... @@mementomori4972
As for shakinness you can just filter it out with openxr toolkit or you can use locked to horizon options in the game.
Thank you, I was going to ask this question.
In which section of the toolkit is this in? And also this complete stops the shakiness of horizon?
AS OF 2024, SUPPORT FOR OPENXR TOOLKIT IS DISCONTINUED. THERE IS NO NEW DEVELOPMENT AND NO TECH SUPPORT OF ANY SORT. THE DEVELOPER DOES NOT RECOMMEND TO INSTALL/USE OPENXR TOOLKIT, AS IT IS KNOWN TO CAUSE ISSUES WITH MANY OF THE NEWER GAMES RELEASED IN SINCE 2024.
@@EXTREEM0 This is a stupid comment. You should definitely use it with games like iracing.
I have the crystal light, the shaking is caused by pimaxs terrible inside out tracking. Make sure no direct lighting towards your headset and reduce the monitor brightness, it fixed the problem for me.
If you are having issues and really want the best tracking possible then you can print QR codes and attach that in front of you while racing.
Important: Neck Motion setting in iRacing with VR: 25%, with screens: 0%. And if possible get base stations + lighthouse faceplate for better tracking. Also get Comfort Topstrap for crystal and some fans for your face-speed will feel better and u will sweat less(I use 2x 1500rpm pc fans). I use both Crystal and triples on motion platform :)
I was wrong, neck movement 25 is the way to go, 80 was too much, but still better then 0 :)
I haven't noticed any shaking while on VR. I started using Idex, then G2 and now PCL. I've also tried, single, superultra wide and triples, for me nothing compares to VR. Maybe I arrived to my max iR but the satisfaction of feeling inside the car is priceless.
Had no issues with shaking on a Quest 3 while driving. I only noticed it when looking back at a live stream, the perspective looks different and has a ton of shaking in it. As you mentioned, I found VR very easy to use because it felt like I could see distance better and freely look at my surroundings. I swapped to a single monitor so I didn't have to constantly setup VR every time I wanted to race, but it was definitely very easy and intuitive to pick up and race with.
As a quest 2 user i dont have to worry about the headset shaking, and my horizon always feels extremely stable. Quest headsets will probably be in most users price range. A quest 2/3 will always be the better budget option than triple monitor setup.
I can run iracing with low ish settings, 120hz with my quest 2. I cant recommend it enough,
You will need a 3rd party headstrap for a quest 2/3, the stock headsets comfort is awful, and it will shake all over your face.
(these are pretty cheap tho)
Out of curiosity, do you know how bad the performance hit is for a quest 2? I only have an RTX 2060 so id like to know if it would be enough
@@indofunnystuff you will need to run the sim in a lower resolution to be able to get a decent frame rate. The problem with VR is you can't have variable frame rates. It needs to run at the refresh rate you pick and I recommend at least 90hz for a good experience. Also, since Meta quest needs to compress and decompress the video stream, your CPU needs to be a good one as well. I had some issues with my Ryzen 5 5600 to run at 120 Hz. So I upgraded to a 5700x3d
@@indofunnystuff No it won't be nowhere near enough. I had an rtx2070 and had to upgrade to a 4070 super to be able to run a Rift S smoothly (which is a 5 year old low resolution headset). I still can't race iRacing in the rain. The cpu is for VR even more important than the GPU and I need to upgrade that too. For a quest 2 for example, you would need at least a 5800X3D cpu, to be able to run a race in the rain on lower Graphics settings without to much stuttering. Racing in the dry is not as demanding, but still. Benchmark Odysseys has a good video on that. It's called iRacing VR with 8 CPU's. Hes testing with a Vlave index which has an even lower resolution than the Quest 2, and he's using a 4080 to exclude bottlenecking. Watch it and you will get an idea.
I’ve been on the fence about VR since the Quest 3 came out. After reading these comments, I’m glad I haven’t pulled the trigger. Are they really that cheap, flimsy, and uncomfortable?
Not sure about iRacing, but the Content Manager for Assetto Corsa has an option to configure the shakiness in a way that the horizon doesn't shake but the car appears to be shaking.
I don't have a high end VR headset (it's just a Quest 2) but I'll never go back to triple monitors, and the main reason is that I can be more precise when aiming for the apex.
yeah i use a pico 4 via content manager for LFM and dont have that horizon shake but there is a whole bunch of vr options to tweak
Yooo it's an honor to have some of my b-roll in your video, I love your channel! 😁
I have VR and triple screens. I use both but triple screens are just comfortable to use with Sim Racing. I have DCS and triple screens is out the question and VR is a must. DCS have controllable cockpits which makes VR a must. I’m using Primax Crystal Light which is the best VR set for your money.
I've been flipping between the two setups for years.. will spend months on one or the other, but always come back to VR. For whatever reason I'm just plain faster in VR. I suspect it's the ability to better see corners, having depth perception. I carry more speed in corners and can get the car to limit more consistently in VR. All that said, you have to have rock-solid head tracking and frame rate, no stutters!
The shakiness boils down to two factors. Weight and tracking.
The heavier the headset, the more inert it is. The more inert it is, the shakier it feels. The headset simply lags behind head movements, it literally wobbles on your head with each movement.
The inside out tracking is slow and imprecise. The processing of camera images for tracking takes a lot computing power and introduces a lag. Additionally, there might be ambiguities in that image processing leading to even more jerkiness.
Actaully, Bigscreen Beyond solves both those issues, being super light and having lighthouse tracking. It's the first headset I've worn with no percievable shakiness.
Im definitely going to try that one out!
It’s more than that though. I’ve noticed VR tracking has no smoothing. Every tiny movement is a quick jerk. But that’s not how our eyes see the world, it’s smooth and stable like a gimbal. Maybe it’s not possible yet to smooth out the tracking motion because it’s too computationally expensive? Or creates too much lag? But hopefully something can be done in the future.
@@maynardewm
of course there is motion smoothing in vr. for example in the openxr toolkit. you guys just have to troubleshoot for a bit before accusing a whole technology for a drawback that only exists because you chose the wrong settings.
thats just bs sorry. base station tracking has zero advantage for headset tracking. tracking also does not take up any computing power since it takes place in the headset chip.
@@SuellioAlmeidalooking forward to this review although I fear it will still have the same shakiness issues
Monitor=playing a video game. VR=being in the game.
I use a Varjo Aero and do not plan to go back to flat screen for sim racing.
I enjoy being IN the car. I added butt kickers for more immersion. I haven't experienced any shaking in vr.
Great video.
Thanks for your summary assessment that VR is better than single screen. I had no idea you had been on VR in iracing. I've been singularly using VR since PSVR2 for GT7 came out. Now I'm purely PCVR on AC, ACC and AMS2
Hey Suellio! I do VR stuff, and what you're talking about @5:08 is due to the nature of VR headsets having the weight so far forward and extended from your face, causing inertia and delayed movement when your head shakes around (your head moves first, and the headset moves slightly later as it gains momentum to "keep up" with your head movement). This issue is removed with 1 VR headset, the Bigscreen Beyond - which I currently own. This is because it's a VR headset that is TINY (look it up), sits super close to your face, and weighs a fraction of what the Pimax weighs (the Beyond VR headset weighs less than your phone) at 127g (yes, only 127 grams).
Anyway, just writing this to make note that there are better VR headsets than the Pimax for racing and other sims. The Bigscreen Beyond also has pancake lenses and OLED displays, so night time racing is incredible and the colors are very nice. The Bigscreen Beyond completely eliminates that delayed visual information you were talking about since it is custom molded to your face perfectly, and so tiny that it doesn't have weight inertia happening. Just wanted to mention this since VR is my passion, and it's always good to educate others on the subject 😁
I would love to see a follow up video if you ever try out a Bigscreen Beyond - I'd love to hear your thoughts on it for racing sims regarding that issue you found at 5:08 ☺
Does the Beyond require base stations for sim racing?
@@swsemple Yes, the Beyond requires base stations to be tracked and will not work without them.
I have a simple Quest 2 Headset and the tracking is very smooth, absolutely no shaking and there is no delay when you turn your head.
Might be a Pimax tracking issue.
I currently race with a VR headset. The original strap was not the best and came lose on longer races. This is entirely down to the strap design. I bought a halo strap for my own comfort and it gets nice and tight on my face. The shakiness you mentioned is not there anymore and any head movement is intentional.
Same, I was constantly adjusting the stock headstrap and was very aware of the extra inertia wobble. Going to the boboVR style headstrap was a massive improvement. My only complaint with VR is the latency and response time compared to monitors, that is getting better with each generation and is better on headsets not named the Quest which don't have to stream PCVR to the headset and decompress the stream.
@@Dietrichzw Don`t get a Quest for Sim Racing. Get a PCVR headset with display port connection and you have 0 compression artifacts and very low latency. Quest is a standalone headset that can also stream PCVR .
If you lower your graphic settings a bit to be able to up the refresh rate to at least 90 hz you will not have a lag higher than a high refresh rate monitor.
same. the basic quest 3 strap put so much pressure on the head, while a ratcheting one keeps it tighter but somehow also with less felt pressure, removing any headaches
I haven't particularly noticed the horizon shaking (quest 3), but will look out for it this evening.
Wonderful review! I just want to add a couple of points (against VR, even though I love it and it's my favorite mode of racing):
- darn near impossible to add third party overlays. I know there's some trick with open kneeboard, but it's very cumbersome and i haven't figured it out yet tbh. It shouldn't be this hard.
- inconsistent positioning. Every time I put my quest on, i have to adjust the height and angle of my POV. (Example, it may begin by placing me closer to the wheel and facing slightly right). It's easy to adjust, but I'm assuming I'm not getting the same POV each time like you would with fixed triples. Because of these slightly different POVs i usually have to tweak my reference points before any race. I'm sure that's costing me some consistency/time.
- when you have the headset on, you are isolated from the world. I'm currently on a G920 wheel so I'm not giving up too much, but if you're someone with an advanced wheel, a button box, etc. You're not going to see any of this during a VR race, so you'll probably have to rely a lot more on muscle memory.
For me if they made VR friendly overlays and positioning presets (like memory seating) that would probably solve most of my issues with VR at the level that i am at.
>"We will never forget the first experience in VR"
Man, not only did I not forget it, I can still taste it when I think off it (sadly for me, motion sickness kicked in and I ended up above the bucket).
It is possible to get over motion sickness. I had similar symptoms like you in the beginning. I recommend using a fan that blows wind in your face. I still use it when I use my Psvr2. And maybe try something other than racing in the beginning. And short sessions. It is a shame that vr create motion sickness for alot of people because I think it's absolutely amazing.
@@MrTystRacing sadly, a lot of people, including myself, don't really realize how you have to break yourself in on VR and if you don't, you can give yourself such a bad experience you may never go back
@@RandyMagruder Yeah I understand completely. I had the exact same feelings. Like "This is so cool but I'm gonna puke soon" 😆. I hope they find solutions to it on future headsets even though they have improved already.
@@MrTystRacingit might have to do with older graphic cards. It takes at least a Geforce 3070 to run VR properly in my experience.
@@PITAH1 Ahh sorry I know absolutely nothing about vr on pc so I'm sure you are right :)
I have run single monitors, triples and VR. I am so much faster in VR being able to look into turns and getting proper depth perception.
also, you can see the yaw of the car better in VR, which helps getting the perfect slip angle
I went from VR to a 49” monitor. Doing a lot of endurance races comfort became a much bigger factor. Whilst some overlays are now working in VR being able to easily access the easily available data on ultra wide is nice.
The biggest thing I miss is being able to naturally turn my head slightly to check where a driver to my side is.
That shakiness is why I am still using Oculus CV1 instead of my HP Reverb, on CV1 there is Zero shaking of horizon, ON Reverb on the other hand, I would need to run motion compensation. IO think itys because with Oculus I can mount the sensor on the rig, but Reverb has inside out tracking
I have been doing iRacing for over four years, until recently always in VR. I started with the original Oculus Quest (!) and then a Reverb G2 since it launched. Microsoft has announced they are dropping WMR from windows, which forced me to consider what would be next after G2. This video convinced me to take the plunge with triples. I'm about one week in now, and so far it feels like the right choice for me. FWIW, I relied a lot on Dan Suzuki's UA-cam videos and his discord to decide on the equipment and how to set up the triples. I feel that saved me significant number of hours and I was able to get things dialed really fast.
I'm hoping for the moment a vr headset company creates a helmet design specifically for simracing, maybe something with mixed reality where you can see your rig and the game world at the same time.
🤯
The big advantage of VR is that you don't have to see your rig.
@@mementomori4972 the virtual cockpit is always much better than the rig because it is the actual car that "the rig is trying to copy".
@@cognitonito2695 Why are you telling this to me?
Bigscreen Beyond
Project cars 2 had 2 settings for VR.. car vibrates... or the horizon vibrates.. this stops motion sickness.
The shakiness part is something I've never been able to explain to people why I didn't like VR, you put it so perfectly. A stable horizon to look down the road to is very important
As a race car driver i can confirm flat screens are like black and white TV's and VR is well.. VR.. there really isn't a comparison. The reality is some people just can't use VR without getting sick and that sucks especially if they love racing. Also, some people just learn they aren't that fast with that much information being provided. Most people need things like radars and indicators on the screen to tell them where other people are on the track because they don't have the skills to be aware of their surroundings lol.. which is kind of the entire point of race car driving. So with that being said, VR isn't even something comparable to a flat screen because the screen is flat. Even a three panel screen won't do. I rarely use my mirrors in VR. I am always spinning my head around. Which obviously you can't do in a race car but you have the sound and the feel and you can literally feel the cars around you and that's just not there with a three panel setup. In VR there are enough reflections to determine if there is a car around you without even using the mirrors or really even looking at all you can just see the lighting change in the cockpit of your vehicle in the way that isn't visible and you can't sense without VR. The amount of speed I can carry into my braking zones is unreal and the amount of immersiveness of VR just puts it on an entirely different ballpark. The fact they are even being compared is to please the flat screen players that actually think they can compete without a flat screen lol.. another thing is people are so dedicated for so long to doing things one way The plasticity in their brains is lost and they refuse to learn anything new because it's like slow and sluggish and painful. So they deny it because they are slow and they aren't used to being slow and they aren't used to having to learn so they don't. They lack all of the things a real race car driver needs. All of the top split can keep their flat screens. They aren't race car drivers😅
True. Add buttkickers and a motion rig and the experience is incredible ;)
@@karner1541 I use 3Drap rumblers. Motion will mess up eye tracking and environment lock. A moving rig just changes all of the set alignments that the VR headset or you have in relation to the screen you are looking at. I'd stay away from motion. It's really just making micro screw ups.
@@nighttrain1565 You need to use motion composation than its fantastic
Intresting because I race in very cheap VR headset ( bought used G2 reverb) and I'm not experiencing any horizon shaking at all. If i strap tight and settings are right ( refresh rate and stable 90fps) everything is smooth af. Only downsize is a bit narrow field of view.
Also a month ago I actually bought triple 27inch and spent like a week setting them up in correct position and angle. And to be fair... I just hated it, I was slower, I didnt feel the speed or car and it just felt like some random game not a race simulation and I ended up returing them.
I really recommend anyone planning to get triples after using VR to first try it out.
Something is missing here.. the transition from advanced VR racer back to screens.. to get to the absolute top level. I can be pretty quick AND consistent in VR. As soon as I switch to the screen, I lose 1 second, and I make a lot of mistakes. But then again, I'm not racing for real. Great video
People like James Baldwin that race on higher level than him like Spa 24 , British GT in real life use VR for real race preparation (i think he have cv1) and monitors for e-sports. But everybody its different. I personally prefer VR (had a reverb g2 now primax cristal / 4090) but i not agree the cost its the same bcs you can run trippples on 3080 but for VR you need 4090 .
@@martintop2605 i run a 4090 as well. How is your tracking with the cristal? The light you have? Sometimes there is such a topic about real vs sim. 99.9% of us never going te xp real racing like gt3. Do like the idea that pros use vr before racing
@@martintop2605 thanks for saying this. I disagree with a lot of what he said, and I made a lengthier comment here, with one point being the cost. As someone who's invested tons of time and money into VR this video honestly pissed me off big time.
@@SimracingArnout The tracking in crystal its much better than in G2, the camera its not drifting from the correct position. Also the fov its wider and higher. I think VR helps you with driving any car even on the road bcs it feels more natural for the brain.
@@martintop2605 ooh really? I was excited but now I'm even more curious
I had the Oculus Rift, Meta Quest 2, Lenovo Explorer, Samsung Odyssey+, HP Reverb and now I've the Reverb G2. The point you comment in the video of shaking it happens mainly by two factors: how tightly you have the visor attached, and how accurate the tracking is at that moment. In general, you will have the visor attached comfortable enough for your head, and the tracking will be never perfect. So yes, it's a problem that will happen depending on the setup (it's not the shaking effect, as some comments point, it's a shaking from the physical input, when you move your head when pressing a pedal for example). From my part, the big issue that I notice from those headsets, is the tracking. Sometimes, you start to lose the initial position, even much worse, you lose the tracking completely. For those cases, I've a button to quickly press when this happens. Another big issue is the performance. I've a 3090 and I can't play games like ACC. In other sims like AC or iRacing I've to lower the settings to have a smooth constant 90fps the most of the time, but the fps dropdowns happens. Despite all this, I still much prefer the immersion that VR provides.
Bit late I know. I'm a PCL owner (it's going back). The tracking on this headset is utterly useless. The main reason for this is the fact the inside-out tracking computation is done on the PC, and not on the headset. This is why there is noticeable lag when you' move your head. The way to partially fix this is to use Lighthouses and the Lighthouse tracking faceplate (sold separately), and to use the comfort headstrap, and 3rd party facial interface inserts and facial interface foam, to improve comfort.
In fairness, pretty much no Meta headset I have ever owned has been comfortable out of the box (the Rift wasn't too bad I guess), and they all required a 3rd party headstrap to be useable. The PCL may not be fixable to that degree tbh.
After installing the mod kit for my PSVR2, the shakiness issue is completely gone, and I can now comfortably drive for over 5 hours.
One more point about VR, once I've tried it I've noticed all positive and negative sides described in the video, but a bit later I've also noticed that I've started to drive more consistent and fast using monitor as well
Very quickly after getting into sim racing I upgraded from a single screen to vr. For the last year I used VR thinking I would hate a single screen but recently I tried and honestly i've enjoyed it more. The thing is, I did not think VR was uncomfortable or anything, but once I was able to sit completely free, easily browse my desktop, use my phone etc I realised that for me currently maybe VR is not my goto. I think in a few years VR will be really good though once the FOV gets better and gpu's get stronger again. Currently running a 3080 and it's often a big comprimise to get good performance at the expennse of bad visuals.
Oddly enough I found I was also faster on a monitor too.
Great stuff as always Suellio! Don’t let the few bad apples who misunderstand your intentions get you down man. The vast majority of us know you’re in it to coach and not to pitch products. Keep up the good work!
Need to try PSVR2. Definitely top of the line for racing. I put it above prime because of the lack of eye tracking and fake movements you were talking about. Plus the lights are like actually lights. The OLED makes it look like there are real electronics in the cockpit instead of something you can tell is being projected on a screen.
You can lookup sim racing specific comparisons for Quest 3 and PSVR but due to worse motion clarity Quest is better most of the time
@@t00thr0t haha dude I don't mean to be rude but the quest is absolutely horrendous. I would say it's the worst headset you can buy for racing actually. It doesn't get worse than the quest lol... The LCD from the early 2000's has terrible contrast and the colors are bland and the horizon will never render. Field of view is significantly smaller and there's no eye tracking which is essential for keeping your position in the vehicle stationary so that you're interpretation of inertia is correct. I could go on and on about how terrible the quest 3 is. Kind of sucks because all of the games and the accessibility and the functionality of the device is incredible. I would say the best of all headsets. But the hardware itself is like the worst of all headsets. It's like Gran Turismo. The best current Sim racing game available and also the worst sim racing game ever made 🤣 we are in weird times my friend
@@nighttrain1565 Sure contrast etc is better but motion quality gets worse with higher brightness which is more important for me personally. Casual Sim Racer made a nice comparison for iRacing
I can just double down on your statement here. I started my sim racing career with triple screens and was struggling a lot to find pace and a field of view that I felt comfortable with. Then, thanks to a friend, I switched to a VR headset with a Lighthouse system (this might also make a difference for the shakiness you are talking about, as the Pimax comes with inside-out tracking, and you have to get a Lighthouse front plate in order to use the more precise Lighthouse tracking). But the point was, only then was I actually able to get feedback for my inputs and have an effect on the car - to really understand how gas and brakes rotate the car as everything was moving so much more naturally around me. After a year of using it, I gained several seconds, allowing me to get much closer to e-sports times. Currently, I have a 49-inch monitor (to avoid the hassle of triple screens), and now that I've had time to learn and understand car behavior in VR, I'm as fast with monitors as I am in VR. However, the mental capacity is much better now, especially in races - you literally don’t "overheat" in stressful situations. Also, kudos Suellio for how you combined actual information with sponsorship. This was a really well-made video!
Regarding the shaking: We have to first differentiate the different sources of it. First there is the shaking of the ingame camera. This is caused, because the ingame camera is in some way connected to the reference frame of the car. This can be controlled and configured mostly by using RealHeadMotion. The 2 extremes would be either 1: 100% locked to the car (each bump will move the horizon up and down) and 2: 100% locked to horizon (absolutely no movement of the horizion, but driving up a hill requires you to look up, which again is not very realistic). The sweetspot will be somewhere in between with some clever damping algorithms involved (RHM is quite good at that)
Then there is external shaking, if you're for example using a motion rig. This is affected by the type of tracking you are using, as well as motion compensation and the type of headset. A bigger, bulkier one like the cristal will allways tend to swing around due to its inertia.
As for the rest of the video: Really well structured comparison and i totally agree on all the points. Maybe you could've gone a bit more in depht into the topic of depth perception and its effect on the ability to judge distances when driving closely to other cars. That's to me the most important selling poing of VR and why i would never switch to 2D, as i would probably keep rearending other cars for at least half a year ^^
I don’t care if triples would make me faster. VR is the most REALISTIC option and so for me the ONLY option.
@red2lucas I'm the same, Realism is more important to me than winning.
Same, i no longer play flatscreen and only VR
First thing to change in VR in iracing (and every other sim) it's the "neck effect", I have my personal settings which works much better than default one, but that's beside the point. I agree 100% on this video, unlike some other statement said before. I would like to know what's the irating between an intermediate level and a top level driver. Cheers!
Excellent video. I'm into sim racing for over 26 years now. I come from a time where online racing worldwide was a group so small, I knew them all by name 😂
In the early days of FFB the really fast guys hated it, made them slower. That's exactly the same with any development in sim racing, be it VR or a motion platform. You are the first serious racer who's honest, to be among the fastest drivers, you want to be as far from realism as possible. You want to sit without body movement, without horizontal viewing movement. The goal to be fast in sim racing has NOTHING to do with looking for a simulation of the real deal. It requires a level of precision unparalleled in real race cars, they give you much more room to slide and correct.
In my setup it's about being as close to realism as possible. You need earplugs for the engine sound, my motion platform will wear you out like crazy, your vision will be blurred at Sebring from all the bumps. You won't be racing 5 hours, if you can make 2 hours, I'm really impressed.
The ultimate question is, do you want to be fast, or do you want to "simulate" a race car?
By the way, I do have experience on real tracks, The Nordschleife the most as I live next to it.
VR superiority for racing sims were self-evident when we got first generation VRs 4 years ago. It is nice that youtubers finally catch on with new technologies. The cost of a triple set up alone is astronomical and impractical for anyone, but most hardcore of fans. VR takes that biggest part away and replaced with universal tool which you can use anywhere.
So, I race in VR pretty much full time ever since i got it. im a novice Iracing driver and maybe the shakes are headset specific, i use the index and its fairly stable, never noticed any out of place movements. but VR gives you so much more "feel". the pro 2 and pro 4 trucks feel better to drive in VR over monitors in my opinion.
Quest 3 can be used standalone, for sim racing, for games like half life alyx, mods for games like cyberpunk or to learn piano with pianovision. A triple monitor setup only has one purpose and is far more expensive. Quest 3 is a no brainer right now. If youre unsure the quest3s is a steal too.
This is obvious to most drivers in Sim within a year or so. If you progress as a Sim racer triple monitors become the only option. I have always said VR for fun as a side gig if you can afford it and Trips for everything else. There is no contest properly setup Trips are the way to go for a main rig, versatility, ease, on and on the better choice.
Try the psvr2, less resolution but shakiness has no delay and after sometime I firget I have a vr, just pretend its the helmet, I can drive competitively for hours
So I certainly haven't been to the top 0.05% level esports competitions, but I have participated in SRO GTWC eSports America in ACC , and have friends who use VR who have done the same in both the American and European championships, and I feel quite strongly that VR is not a hinderance at this level as long as the framerate is high enough, 90fps at the very minimum. Personally, I can say that simply would never have made it to the level I'm at now without VR. I've never tried triples, but in my experience the phantom sense you get from being IN the car and feeling it move beneath you is just something you can't get on a single monitor.
Word!
Yeah, I tend to agree with you and I think it's a little bit naive to say you can't be as good at high levels with VR. Endurance racing for 6 hours 4 hours even I can completely understand not using VR and that is a true issue for many... But for consistency and speed in races I disagree personally. I know I know esports drivers don't use it but that issue is complicated as well. Every esport driver would need to have a 4090 PC and the latest greatest VR HMD at home and in competition or it wouldn't be fair. Also, no one would be able to see their faces at these Esport games. Blah blah. It's just easier to have A fair race with everybody using the same monitor/pc setup. I'm not that interested in esports myself so I'm just guessing.
@@frankzappa2274 what I will say is that practicing for more than 2 or 3 hours in VR is kind of sweaty and uncomfortable, I can imagine it getting annoying to put in esports prep hours in VR every day.
@MrJoppashoppa that's totally fair, I've never tried triples but honestly if they do give that phantom sense I can definitely see why most pros would prefer it. I can ultimately only comfortably drive like 3 hours a day in VR and that just isn't enough for how competitive professional sim racing is now
@@MiaReiFilms i wouldn't call esports sim racing. They are not simulating racing in esports. Using all kinds of HUDs, not relying solely on the infos given by their race engineer. No motion rig, sometimes even cockpit view is not recommended, and probably more i am not thinking about right now.
Esports is esports, but not simulation of rl racing on screen.
Strap your headseat down correctly to your head. May use an other strap and switch from inside out tracking to ouside in. Basically lighthouse.
Then all your VR problems evaporate.
Using the even larger Pimax 8KX, which is a stone compared to smaller crystal. And when strapped correctly to the head and used with lighthouse, there
is no issue at all. Sure this is additional work and expanse, but considering what everything else costs, I dont think it matters in this discussion.
An other sidefact about the 8KX: It has a larger FOV than I have with ma daily glasses and definitely more than you get in a helmet. Cant get more visual imersion
like this headset, even less in a real car (because of the helmet or because of my glasses).
The only time i've ever had VR shaking is when it wasn't tight enough so was physically shaking on my head. One click on my strap and it's fixed. I use a Valve Index though, which uses 2 base stations for tracking which makes it extremely precise.
You're right about the physical stuff though, man it gets sweaty in there. And eyebrow sweat dropping into your eye is the worst! I hope Valves next headset resolves as much as possible.
I also use an index, back in the day some people made fans which attached to the USB in the front of it. you might be able to find something like that if you look for it
Wow your explanation of the shake in VR is exactly why I went with triple monitors
I’m really curious to know what you think of my monitor setup with 80 degree side screens. I think it gives a more realistic sense of peripheral vision and directionality compared to a wider angle setup.
You can enable camera horizon lock in %, in some sims (not so sure about iRAcing). For example, car shaking in AMS2 due to track uneven surface is so wild, it completely ruins the immersion for me, so I've set horizon lock to 50%, and it's better, but still far from perfect. There is something weird going with the view when you lock to horizon, lateral movement are kind of jerky in AMS2, so I can't feel the grip properly. All in all, it's all up to how developers implemented the camera (view) behavior.
A proper setup VR system can't be beat unless you are a streamer. I'm also a 7k dude. A 'proper setup' VR system is the important part.
As someone who plays Gran Turismo exclusively using the VR I do want to point out something that I think a lot of people miss. There is something in VR that I'm sure could be an advantage in real life but in the game does sometimes slow me down and that's the fact that I'm a little bit more afraid of crashing. Not a lot but at a subconscious level I'm breaking a little bit earlier or being a little bit more apprehensive with a throttle. I'm definitely faster than VR but that's because I'm beginner to intermediate but I have noticed that VR forces you to be a little bit more courageous to make each corner. My guess is that if you were training for the real world that would probably give you better information to use
I'm using the Quest 3 coming from the 2 and blown away how clear it is. I do have a 4090 and a 5800X3D so settings are maxed out on the game and headset. I almost exclusively use Assetto Corsa with Content Manager and CSP. I'm not getting the head shake as you are and as you describe, it's from the the headset itself. I see there's some suggestions below on how to address that. Although I only race in VR, I would never do a 5 hour race using any media but can understand using monitors in that case. Good luck with your career.
For me, turning up the FFB on a DD wheel makes the shakiness much worse. In VR most games are fine, but put FFB into the mix and the vibrations that get up to the headset are quite disorienting.
I use the PSVR2 and did not notice an issue with the “shakiness”. I like using both VR and single screen (65” tv at 120hz very close to my wheel). I like VR better but it’s nice to not wear something on your face every now and then
@SuellioAlmeida I'm an Iracer..not the best but i enjoy the adrenalin....just wanted to say that the real life racing in the radical that you have done and that final race...better than any f1...that was awesome and to hold those pro's off like you did....amazing...just subscribed and now away to binge watch and hopefully pick up some tips. well done
Great review. I left vr to stream and record content for like 6 months and went back to VR w the reverb g2…doubled down on the BSB…can’t go back ever again. Can’t wait till v2…
I got 21:9 monitor recently, because I'm racing on a budget. Highly recommend if you're tight on money, but want to improve from a single 16:9 monitor. The one I got is MSI Optix MAG301RF, it has a quite huge discount here in Germany. 200Hz Rapid IPS with G-Sync/MPRT. Very happy with it!
Trippel 3d monitors would be the ultimate way. To bad they stopped making them years ago , as they would be much better today.
I still have a 27in 144hz (1440p) one, but my coworker lost the glasses. The best part (to watch) was the Nvidia demo for them, I will say it looked better than VR. Given this was a long time ago, 980TI days with Witcher 3. The game was awesome except for the readable dialogue part, it did not put the txt on a flat plane in front of you. For instance: Having to read and choosing what option you want to respond with would have the txt go far away to a building then a few letters one the person your talking to the way back to the building. But having multiple VR headsets over the years, I would really love to try the 3d again, especially if my current monitor supported it (Samsung Odyssey G9 57in) .
I had this shaking effect with G2, but not in quest 3. Its a tracking issue. But still, agreeing most of this stuff. Was using cv1 and valve index for maybe 2 years. Then move to monitor(s). Everyting is so much simple and im faster with those. Still own quest 3 tho. Sometimes i use it for the kicks. But usually those kicks goes away pretty soon.
5:40 you can lock view frame of reference to the horizon as opposed to the chassis.
Optimum Tech just did a video on the same headset and he also complained about the lag and the tracking. He solved the problem by using a base station from a valve index which is a lot less laggy than the built-in tracking in the pi Max.
In VR the shakiness is actually one thing I have been thinking about. The brain and eyes have a natural stability function which the VR don't have which make it feel and look weird.
I haven't tried VR yet but his video proves it anyway. I wonder if something similar to a picture stability function that many video cameras have would actually solve this problem?
VR giving a sense of depth and all that but monitors should feel more natural anyway. But I feel if you are both tight in space and budget but still want maximum experience VR has to be the way to go.
For me (not very competitive simracer) there is one another big argument for VR. I simply doesn't have space to setup whole rig. In VR i can just take my wheel stand pro from the closed, put it in front of my coach and just race. I doesn't have to put my wheel stand in front of a tv or setup anything. After racing i just fold my wheel stand witch my wheel, put in the closed with my quest 2 and my wife is happy :).
Cara eu nunca ia saber que voce e brasileiro seu ingles e de se invejar parabens
Thanks for pointing out the difference. You saved me some frustration if i had taken the plunge. I guess I will stick with the MetaQ3 till something more suitable turns up for VR as I prefer immersion and realism. I have been wondering about the Pimax headsets but held back just due to needing lighthouses and high price tag and wondered about if it is worth it for sim racing anyway. Best of luck with your RL racing. Always makes me happy to see sim racers do well in RL racing.
I use a quest 2 connected to my 3080 and it is a great in game experience. However, the quest link system and cable are sometimes very finicky. The software for the link is very inconsistent and sometimes just doesn’t want to connect some days. Keep that in mind if that’s what you want a quest for
Subjective, but I just can't get over the comfort issue with long term VR use. I can't even stand wearing glasses, so I'm an extreme case. That said, I use triples and have a VR for some fun immersive short stints. I am noticeable faster in VR, but comfort and enjoyment is more important to me.
VR is so fun and more immersive
I recently bought a PSVR2 headset for sim racing because of the recently added PC support. For me, I think it's a great training tool to get that last extra bit of track knowledge to be able to use every last centimeter of the track in a big event, you just don't get that sense of how close a wall is with monitors. But for actual racing, I still prefer monitors because as Suellio said VR is more physically draining to use.
The IMU sensor of the headset being offset and that offset not being compensated for in software is a huge eye opener and deal breaker! Wow! Thank you for the in depth review.
Do other VR glasses suffer from the same issue?
My rig is set up in a semi-truck and I couldn't use triples even if I preferred them. I imagine others are space confined too. VR is honestly amazing technology, I was lucky enough to experience the Oculus DK2 and CV1 Rift before they sold to Meta. Ended up with a Quest 3 now, it has some issues but the tracking does okay and it's reliable enough to run endurance races with.
VR racing is super immersive. However I'll take screens over VR any day simply as it's much easier to grab a drink. Especially for other driving stuff like truck simulators, VR has to be modded in and enjoying a cup of coffee while hauling across the roads can be much more straining in VR.
i had both, first single then VR and now triples. I enjoyed VR but I see some personal advantages in triples. Overlays work without any problem, i can interact with my wife and kid and I am still in the room with them, the Picturequality is much better, I can easily let visitors try the sim (in VR everyone got sick) and for me the most important its just easier to get in the sim for a 15 min training, turning on all the vr software and sometime calibrate and put on the Headset was quite annoying. But nothing beats the immersion of VR and the depth perception. From the price I dont think a pimax would be cheaper than triples...
The shakiness IS a big thing I’ve also been through multiple headsets and it’s the biggest reason I don’t use VR. The weight is the 2nd biggest factor. You are defo not alone.
I look at this from the simple perspective of I simrace because I can't afford to do the real thing. If I'm not the fastest out there, oh well, I just want to feel like I'm driving a race car. VR is the clear winner there. It just also has the bonus of also making it easier for me to be fast than screens do.
What is better is what works for you and brings you the most enjoyment, whether it is through immersion or through better accuracy and lap times… or both.
I haven't experienced the shakiness that you are describing. I would say that in VR I change configuration to introduce horizon lock and also how connected the vr headset is to the car
I use oculus 2 and the shakiness doesn’t seem too bad. Overall though after switching to an ultra wide curved monitor there is a greater level of stability to the FOV. For someone who has never raced in a real car the difference is minuscule. Comfort and eye strain are the main downsides. Upsides are less reliance on visual markers for breaking and an easier time adapting to battling through corners. Still after moving to the ultra wide monitor I prefer the upsides of that more. Easier to use better visual quality and hopefully upgrading to triples
Hmmm, good points tho. Personally i want the most immersion i can get out of a game and rather take a break after 1-2 hours of playing. Even tho it is exhausting with a VR on the head and all that stuff, may even sweating, i just take it as a realism and immersionfactor aswell.
Interestingly for me i get sick of driving in 2D, like im starting to feel uncomfortable doing so after some hours, especially the lack of any head movement makes my neck really stiff. When i drive for longer sessions in VR, my neck isnt geting stiff and i do not have motionsickness after geting off the chair. The weight on the head doesnt bother me that much, like my neck is well trained, the weight only matters in terms of seatcomfort, so i need to get some new straps or sth.
When it comes to performance i also noticed, that im driving way faster and more consistent with the use of VR but thats just the issue of only owning one screen, not beeing able to see the apex alot of times, yet barely ever see other drivers next to me.
But to me performance isnt the 1st point of interest, because my performance is only high if i enjoy a game, if i do not i can straight up stop playing because it is pointless to begin.
I feel like the Meta Quest 3 is a really good starting device for VR, the lenses are in such a extreme quality, that it doesnt even collect a single dustcorn after 3-4 weeks of use. Visuals are very clean and crisp for a VR, sure its not as good as a normal screen and its not going to compete with a lets say LG OLED TV at all, but its geting somewhere.
Aside from my nose (possibly because I broke it 10 or so years ago), I had absolutely no issue with my Pimax 5K Super's comfort. The very first day I received it - my first VR headset ever - I raced for almost 8 hours. I get hot and sweat way more than the average person and, even then, it never occurred to me that VR headsets are warm/hot. You're racing, OBVIOUSLY you're going to get hot. I feel this is extremely over-blown by some users. Don't people's arms, legs, feet, butts, chests, etc. get hot when racing / sim racing? My entire room turns into a furnace! Yet no one complains about that...but then they put on a VR headset and all of a sudden "OMG, the headset is hot"...LOL!
I have triple screen and VR and I enjoy triple screen much more. Until VR can match 11520 x 2160 and 210fov then VR will not compare to the crisp image of my setup. Remember that the 2880 x 2880 is stretched over the fov (115) and so the stereoscopic resolution is lower. Resolution isn't just about if you can see the pixels but also about image sharpness. VR does not compare to 4K because with a screen you have more pixels in your smaller fov that the pixels sit in. While VR stretches it beyond what a screen does, so less pixels for the same view area.
I am looking forward to the Pimax 12K. Wide FOV (200) and a higher resolution (6k per eye).
That shakiness might be caused because of an offset between rotation point of your head (close to your neck) and the location of the headset. I've never saw any setting that would address this offset in any VR game. And because the game only knows where the headset is and not your kneck, it renders the world only based on headset position. This might amplify the real movement of your head beyond acceptable levels.
It is interesting mostly because I drive in VR for 5 years and I've never noticed it that much... though I was either on first Oculus or Quest 2, maybe Meta's hardware is better at establishing the headset location compared to pimax, or maybe I am not sensitive enough.
ACTUALLY, I did notice that once. Mirrors on open wheels in iracing can be very narrow. Pointing my head into the sky caused the headset to raise so much that mirrors showed the road instead of cars behind me.
I do not move my head too much, that's probably why I do not have too many issues with that during most of the time.
I had a bad experience with the tracking on a PiMax 5k some years back - it would jitter and drift. Even the PSVR2 now has issues with PC - the video wobbles as you move your head. My Quest3 though (as was the same with my Index), feels like I'm looking through a helmet. The tracking is absolutely rock solid with zero delay or wobble. I'd recommend trying one if you ever get a chance, but I get VR is not for your situation.
I'm racing in iRacing since 2016 with VR and it's the best experience so far! I love it
I'm using a quest 2 and spent a lot of time modding assetto corsa, opencomposite and pure LCS is the way to go there for those struggling.
About the horizon aspect, there's an option in AC called "Lock to horizon" which really helps with that issue, not quite sure about iracing. A good strap is absolutely necessary too
AC looks and feels stunning. Only thing i cant get rid off is that horrible aliasing on some shadows and guardrails.
Either way, i love VR on simracing, you can even feel the rush on elevation changes.
90fps max resolution with a 3080
I've driven on a small single screen and a projected wall. I thought the wall would be better and more immersive, but motion sickness got out of control. Has anyone had issues with VR motion sickness. I'd like to try it some day and see.
Cool video, interesting points.
I'm on iracing using the PSVR2 with PC adaptor. On a 4090 so running at 120Hz = I've never experienced this shakiness. I've got no other VR experience to compare with, but the PSVR2 movement feels absolutely natural.
but 100% comfort is a factor. The longest races I've done either on iracing or on GT7 are about an hour and you absolutely need to give your eyes and your head a rest after that.
I’d argue that triples are actually cheaper than vr.
You can honestly find a set of triples @ 144+hz for less than 300. and probably less than 200 if you go used. Vr headsets usually cost more than that
I feel that would happen with a lot of VR headsets that are heavy because they move slightly different from your head. Probably only the Bigscreen Beyond would be able to keep up without this issue since its so small and light. Too bad the FOV is so small on it
Reading other comments that's another thing i have head about the headset you used here. You need base stations to make the tracking good. So having the base stations might have fixed this issue as well because the tracking on that headset out of the box is bad.
I’ve never noticed the horizon thing to be an issue or moving my head to cause issues in vr tbh.
I will say that I absolutely love VR, every time I turn on my pc I want to play something vr related. However, for long sessions I would never use vr. It’s not always the obvious reasons but just the reason of being aware of the room and who’s there. Maybe it’s just me but I don’t like being in vr for too too long.
I’m lucky enough to have triples and vr so I have the choice. If I had to choose one it would be triples BUT nothing can even come close to emulating vr. For someone that’s never tried it, so long as you test it on a decent pc to get a good frame rate (otherwise you may feel sick) it HAS to be experienced at least once. Ams2 in particular is jaw dropping.
I think the big screen beyond would help for immersion as it wouldn’t feel like you even had it on. It was also help with the lack of weight with head movement. Due to the weight of a headset (even the q3), there’s a slight delay when swinging your head side to side
Thank you for this video! Moving from triples to VR seven years ago eventually killed simracing for me, because no sim really accounts for the way in which the car shakes around the body and how the neck and eyes move and greatly reduce shakiness of the horizon. Most sims have an option like "look to horizon" nowadays, but this usually introduces nausea when going down a steep hill. The only game that I know of that has physically correct neck and eye movement is star citizen (dunno if only on foot or also in cockpit view, though).
have you tried asseto corsa via content manager? has a lot of vr tweaks that has resulted in it feeling really natural for me
I tend to agree with you and I got this completely resolved by using now also the DOF Reality P3. There is no way I can go back anymore. The combi of VR and motion rig is top notch to be honest. Even the simulated forces of accelerating and decelerating you can feel. Of course you will never have like 2, 3 or even more G’s but the combination of the motion rig with VR tricks your brain. Next step for me will be the belt tensioner to get even more sense of forces.
I can recommend everyone to try out the combination of motion rig with VR, it is truly immersive. I recently tried it all out without the motion rig and played it on 2D and everything felt lifeless and not enjoyable at all. I also was not able to find my breaking points as normal because they are within VR in my periphiral view and could not see them anymore. I also guess this is getting used to and find them elsewhere. Bottom line is that for me, I want to feel to be in there completely ;)
In AMS 2 there is something called “world slider” with this you can fixate the horizon and the shakiness goes away. Sorry I cannot help with iracing though maybe there is a similar option
Driving at a 6-7k level, I definitely see the point about the shakiness, but in my Pico Neo 3 Link it isn't at all as bad as what you describe. My pace is about equal between VR and single monitor, but of course VR is way more fun and gives more FOV, and fortunately I don't have any real comfort issues with my headset.
I don't notice the vibration, I have pico 4 so it migth react differently. One of biggest advantages of vr, is the space it requires. My rig is tightly in corner of my room, true triples with rig require almost a little roon´m
quest 2 user, not much shake, or wobble here,.. it may have to do with the strap, I use a halo strap, and in shakes a bit when I dont snug it well,... but yeah you can feel some pressure, but I use it 2 hours +/- and not a pro at all, just enjoy the experience