The Red Bull Flugtag Record Will Be Broken!!
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- Опубліковано 7 чер 2024
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I don't think that many teams think about ground effect. That's where a lot of competitors get the distance. I'd design something to take advantage of that. Also slow flight means large control surfaces so why not just use the whole stabilizer as an elevator?
This comment was stolen from me, someone using my name.
The moment you reach ground-effect you got about 10 to 15 ft of travel left. Power ground effect is a different story.
The lower wing is really low, which should help with GE.
I’m more worried about the stall effect.
Yup!...I just came back to comment that a dive for airspeed should be job one... Followed by leveling off to take full advantage of ground effect.
given that the flugtag takeoff speed is basically 0, i would do model testing not by tossing the plane, but simply dropping it
Came here to say exactly that. Tossing it makes no sense
@@camofpv also they completely forgot to add the weight of a human to the nose of the craft (or a simulated, to scale weight) so im predicting a phenomenal nosedive at flugtag
But they have weight on the nose?
@@Space_Reptileif i had to guess they’re figuring the weight of the control electronics is roughly equivalent to the pilot
Don’t you love it when a plan comes together
There was one Flugtag team that set up a gravity powered catapult to launch their plane using a few of the team members to run forward and jump off of the platform providing the weight to power the catapult
The team that used the two guys jumping off the platform to pull ropes and really accelerate the flyer was genius
If they used a tall tower to launch from, they not only woul get extra height to start but it could be a catapult using the ropes attached at top as a fulcrum, so when they jump off it throws the plane off the end like a trebuchet
What about bungies instead of ropes?
@@dskofich yeah, climbing shock lines could be used for a smooth transfer of energy
Or offroad recovery rope. Definitely was thinking of some sort of energy recovery setup where the cart falling away has some sort of delayed arm that transfers some of that to the glider.
@@accordv6er recovery rope would probably be to strong, a rock climbing shock rope would work better I think
Here’s a thought for the future, making a little push platform for the scaled down models so you can get a more accurate representation of what will happen at flugtug
make sure you do some scale speed launches! doesn't matter how well it glides with a good toss if it can start off from very slow.
The launch from the barge and the first 1 second of flight are most critical in this event. You will need to apply your engineering skills to the full scale launch phase. After launch, make sure your spars can handle the load. Good luck! I'm rooting for you!
I would be working on the launching more than anything if you could add a line to the launch cart to the aircraft so as to turn it into a kite and gain altitude and speed then quick release
One design years ago incorporated a rail launching device geared to the sled wheels in order to increase forward acceleration before the Edge... Think slingshot effect!😅
Hey Josh.... I know you joked about it near the beginning of this video... BUT you MUST make a kit of your final Flugtag aircraft. The marketing potential alone is huge ! Hell, who knows, with hope the kit will inspire a generation of future "Flugtag'ers". Looking forward to your Flugtag success!
What if instead of trying to fly right away, you use the height to gain speed, then glide right above the water surface like an ekranoplan? That seems like a more efficient use of the very limited potential/kinetic energy.
better yet.. why not use the vertical drop as a gravity catapult? in other words... hook the plane to a rail system in such a fashion that the rail system serves as additional thrust as it rotates off the edge ??
@@rollerkingonce While not specifically banned, I don't think launch assist is allowed. Gravity may be different (and not having _it specifically_ banned means it IS allowed, right :D ) and that would actually be a great idea since at that point you can have as much drop weight as five people (required team size, as per rules) could carry up there.
The fartest you can possible go is a combination of speed and ground effect. Launch speed can be increase with a pulley system, just need all the non pilots to jump down in to the water.
@@AgentWest There's some optimum in this regime. Diving more from the platform allows you to design for a higher glide speed, thus decreasing wing area and increasing aspect ratio. It also allows you to increase your lift and reduce induced drag via ground effect. The downside is you end up spending less time in your optimum parameters. Also, the control problem of a dive glide is much more difficult than a constant glideslope.
The real secret is to find the lightest pilot possible. A 40 kg tiny woman needs only half the wing area of a 80 kg man thus half the chord at the same span, and that wing will produce half the lift at twice the L/D thus ~1/4 the induced drag. The Chicken Whisperers use a very light girl. This is *the* single most impactful design parameter.
@@appa609 True about the weight. I just looked up "Chicken Whisperers" and their 2013 flight, that was impressive! What i found particularly interesting is that their glider started on a rolling platform. While it was rolling and the wing was gaining lift, the pilot had plenty of time to adjust her body position (i.e. balance of the craft) for the best glide slope. Very basic way to control a very simple craft. Very effective in the end.
Definitely need to do testing at scale speeds. You're currently launching them at many times greater speed than what you'll experience at full scale.
I love that Josh used a $50 radio to do that, It much more closely matches the message of the hobby does not have to be prohibitively expensive, that is how FT got me into the hobby years ago. Thanks guys
6:05 The chirping bird made the sparrows outside my windows go nuts.
Hey Josh: I just had another thought to build on the idea below. At Flite-fest you could build a scafolding to mimic the "Ramp" at Flugtag... then invite kids to chuck their creations off of the start ramp, to see who flys furthest... Just like Flugtag. At the bottom of the ramp have a tent set up to sell kits of your full scale design. If you want to expand your offering, kit up some of the other competitors and your past designs. Just thought I would pass along my lightbulb moment for today. All the best of luck at FlugTag :)
Your office is incredible. Never a dull backdrop
I've seen a few that have innovative launching mechanisms. I think it will also be important to explore these avenues and exploit them as far as you can within the rules. One I remember used gearing to help accelerate the forward momentum on launch, also high launch rigs seem to work well for some. All the best team
Good luck with Flugtag! We believe in you. You got this!
i cobbled together the classic FT cub from dollar store foamboard and printed plans myself. it was ugly, but with the right power pack and a 2200 3s battery, it flew for 25+ minutes cruising around half of a soccer field. a great start to a great hobby
Hey Josh! Invert that V tail!! Improved stability with the downforce.... Also it will reduce torque moments if the wind decides to strike from the side during the launch. IMHO, it looks good too!
Great and educational designing. Will plans be available for this glider?
Josh I like that design, it looks like a sky rake and what a neat glider. Awesome !
Look at the Japanese human powered flight yearly comp. They also have a non powered field that fly about 200 meters. The pedal powered version go over40 kilometers!
The idea is that you dive down off the end to get speed then use the ground effect off the water to maximize the glide slope.
You mean "JAPAN INTERNATIONAL BIRDMAN RALLY".Probably the best competition in the world.Looking at the video of the competition, we can see that the slow flight design has the opposite effect, and the optimal solution is an aircraft that does not lose speed.
@@pulaperapora7130 yes it is the greatest test of man powered or glider flight I’ve seen.
Great video. Love from Vietnam !
I want this as a throw and powered Glider kit. Awesome design - love it.
You're going to need lots of wing area to fly at running speed. 300 sq. ft. or more. Nice concept btw, similar to the Dingo ultralight from Ukraine.
As you are having fun while designing for a purpose, not just having fun this time...
I think what you should do is to build a launcher, a sort of catapult. Like a rail with a weight pulling the rope.
So you eliminate the random factors on a start, make it consistent, so you can really compare different designs.
Looks Awesome!
This Old Man from Washington NC enjoying with my coffee. You guys are so awesome with your dreams ❤️. Been following since almost day one. Looking forward to seeing the results 👍. ✈️🧔💝
I love this channel so much.
Rolling platform for extra height and slingshot powered by the four pushers jumping off the edge 🙌
I'm Xionmass Research and Development in Juno / simple Rockets 2. Phone and PC sandbox building game.. I have a lot of prototypes. I fly RC to :). Been watching your vids for over a decade. Love you guys. Gl
I don't know what the "Launch Assist" rules are, but if they allow, I would think really hard about using a push pole of some sort to enable your ground crew to impart as much energy (speed) into the craft as possible. Just like the Cub Scout Pinewood Derby cars, its all about the physics and the energy provided by your launch assist crew is probably one of the most important factors to manage/consider. Find a bunch of rugby players to be that crew...
I don't know if it would be allowed or not, but I've always thought of a trebuchet style launcher. The team rides up front of a pedal powered carriage. As they move over the launch platform, their weight falling pushes the plane hopefully faster, possibly lifting it, to a higher speed than it could be pushed.
This is an excellent design!
Washout in the wingtips helps with keeping it moving forward and adds stability.
You'll get that record!!!!
Looking good just have to wait.
I love that your using s flysky combo my first transmitter
Unfortunately biplanes don’t exactly double effective lift. Depending on separation, it might only produce 120-140%.
The way they will help is you can build the wing structure lighter because it is essentially a bridge truss. Lower weight means lower stall speeds, which will help greatly since your take off speed is essentially zero.
Are you guys taking in consideration where people will be holding the full-sized one for the real throw on the competition day? I imagine the ergonomics might play a big part both during the run and during the throw.
A longer aspect ratio will mostly reduce induced drag, but it gives it a much higher frontal area which greatly increases parasitic drag.
The wing span is the same, parasitic will be the same
You mean form drag. Parasitic drag is from non flying parts (not wings). Like undercarriage or aerials.
At the speed theyre doing induced drag is much higher than parasite drag
Just a few things to consider. Directional Stability>>This can be achieved with either a rudder in the back, OR having vanes on each wing. Since a vane can be placed on each wingtip, you don't need as much surface area and this saves weight. The tail can also be a full flying horizontal stab which saves weight on hinges and linkage. Also, you need to consider Bernoulli's principle. Lift is created by a differential in high/low pressures that are created with wind velocity differences. I like the biplane idea, but the camber of your wings needs to be increased. You can also cut down on the cord if the wing is more efficient. Aspect Ratio is everything. Now, find a very small girl to fly it. Good luck.
Wow amazing iron giant!
Two ideas: 1. What about flaps? This would allow the pilot to trade drag and lift as needed. What if with flaps you could actually get the thing flying before the end of the platform, then retract them for speed while descending, and then extend them again just before splash down to get a few extra feet. 2. Can you build it around a bicycle? You can get moving faster by pedaling then you can by running.
For a few-second flight, too many things to fiddle with only complicates things.
I've always thought that the best way to control pitch on this type of craft (no need for steering) would be to have the pilot sitting on a rowing machine seat that moves forward and back to instantly change the c/g. This could even be used to control an r/c plane; forward/aft, left/right movement of a weight being the only (hidden) control surfaces.
I’m curious about bi-wings. Does the matter of the placement of the top wing relative to the bottom wing? For example, if you place the top wing behind/over/in-front-of the bottom wing, how does it affect its flight?
I think you guys NEED to develop this into an FPV kit with a high mount pusher motor!
Hi Guys - where can I find a link to the Pterosaur? Not in the description and it doesn't see to be in the shop either...
for the model glider reinforce the fuslage to take high start or winch (high speed for model gliders) to get it up
Keep maximum allowed span of 22 feet on Both wings. Minimize the Chords to increase aspect ratio (70 cm) & PUSH AS HARD as you possibly can before diving (for the ground crew)! Naca 4512 something airfoil 🙂
I think you need to do one more test: Realistic launch conditions. You need to slide the latest prototype slowly off a platform on the porch and see how it recovers after going over the edge. That what it will be like in the real competition.
That is a beautiful property
So excited, the Principal of my school has approved my Flying Club STEAM group. Hope to access a lot of content from Flite Test. Entry level kits will be very welcome.
In Australia, the FT app isn't available? Please release it. Thanks.
Make your launch vehicle really tall so that when it runs over the edge it tosses the plane forward when it rocks forward.
The crew who will be doing the pushing of the aircraft have to start working on their bodies and technique now. The most important thing is airspeed off the runway. But yes a biplane is a good idea.
Yes can't wait
I think you need to figure out what a scale barge push would be on your smaller test model. Chucking from the second floor is probably too high and too fast. Or maybe the opposite ;-). but I don't think the model is much of a help unless you also figure out how to model a scaled down launch.
👍😎👍 awesome video
Are there any rules about the crew jumping first with bungee cords that “pull” the plane like a catapult launch? Or a raised platform to come off of?
if possible,take a look at proctor models thin wing n,liht,an undercmbered,i had an antic,very slow and woudl fly on rudder onl,very light wing loading, thin wing
Best video ever
An _inverted_ V tail will give you proverse roll with yaw. That's why the USAF Raptor drone uses an inverted V tail.
If they made that as a kit for motor flying, I would buy it!
If drag is more of an issue maybe going for a larger upper wing and then a shorter lower wing would work? It’ll lose some lift but could be helpful in reducing the drag
Dont forget, you have counter wieght also!!! if you created a pengelum type seating arrangement which swung forward for initial launch to shift cg nose heavy,,,, then craft goes into dive, builds speed, then the spring loaded cable connected to wing just behind cg, pulls pilot seat back and locks into cruise position with cg at or slightly behind Center of Mass to pull nose up and achieve your flare for landing.
Taking a page out of the Buzz light year book and "Fall with style" !
Dastardly and Muttley in Their Flying Machines. let's go!!
What was the plane on the desk? Is there a kit or plans for that?
The aircraft carrier landing at 13:30 was pretty cool.
you need to scale down speed for the model vs the real plane that will be pushed off. Can you use a wheel skid that stops at the end of the launch platform? You need to make the last model a free flight
I'm thinking using a couple of levers, demountable, fixed under the wing root which, could be attached to ropes. The two jumpers would jump off the edge and the levers would increase the speed and give you a height advantage.
Set up a scale platform and do your adjustments from there even scale speed launches
Needs to be "on the wing" before it even leaves the platform. The dive-and-recover just doesn't work. Good luck guys!
About dual wing ultralight airplanes, have you heard about the Petrel 3 ? It's a French made dual wing ultralight floatplane
That Dingo looks like an upgraded copy of the Hovey Whing-Ding II homebuilt from the 70's.
I don't see any brace wires on the model. Be sure to add them when scaling up as they're one of the biggest reasons to use a bi-plane wing. i.e. by cross bracing between the wings you can make them work like a single super thick truss instead of long thin cantilever beams.
I feel like u would want something that shines at ground affect and has strong tail authority quicky...u want it to drop off the boat and quickly be able level out once picks up some speed and translate it into a glide slope so Def narrow wide almost flat bottom (slight undercamber) with v tail for sure for added dihederal and shorter using the person as the nose weight or if possible person directly on top of cg
Just out of curiosity, is there any wind tunnel software where to test own models?
If this team can make a winning Flugtag design, it proves that working with models can help make successful full size planes.
great!
Are there any Rules regarding the trolley. A pendulum type release should give a couple mph.
Ad a tall tower,ball bearing on the wheels and a fast push. Fingers crossed. Good luck. + ad the exactly cg on the full side.
I'd make a repeatable launch mechanism for testing, more similar to the full size. Unless you're planning on having a scale giant hand to chuck the full size off as well, lol.
i hope they offer plans
Nice builds, can build f-117 fighter some day full version please
Make sure you design a tall launch platform to gain much needed height. That will help.
I rather think Red Bull determine that!
Awesome vid, as always . Should you not though ! simply push the Model off your workbench at scale speed / height , and see how it performs from there ??
Do you know whether the rules would allow using an atlatl throwing stick; with the craft on a stand, the crew could use them to accelerate the plane. Just a thought
If you want to be more like the real deal you got to LOB it very easy cuz that's the way it's coming off the platform on the big ones pretty slow the way he's throwing it's equal to a catapult on a aircraft carrier
I think the key element to the flugtog is to make sure that you take off really well there's no other way except to build an apparatus I can actually help you take off and fly very quickly
Do you have a "skin" on the underside of the wing or an open structure, with a top skin only?
I was thinking about the launch, are you allowed a guide rail. If you have a single "u" rail, so a single wheel (in the c/g) would allow a smoother launch. As far as the crew, 1 Pilot, 2 on ea. wing, and a single (1) on the tail. The tail person is responsible for pitch and yaw at take off. The 4 on the wings would provide the thrust and make shure the wings don't drag. Or can there be a "Catapult" similar to the Wrights, same rail, but this time everyone except the pilot grab the tow rope and drop off the end at the same time launching the craft. Anyways, just a thought. Great video, thanks again. John S..
do you ever incorporate scale weight?
Would inverting the V-tail be of worth i.e. the Lazair (if it would clear the deck?)
One thing I think you overlooked is when changing from a v tail to a conventional tail is the need to reduce the surface area to more closely match that of the previous tail. Compair the elements of a T tail glider for closer design than that of a bush plane...
One more thought is that at very low speeds it is even more crucial that the elevator is operating in clean air. I think you were on the right track with the idea of an very high aspect ratio biplane design. Building it with the tail spar high so it will clear the dock as it falls just need to stretch the design to the limits allowed by width and length rules and get the Thin T tail up into clean air away from your pushers.
Distribution in the EU would be awesome :)
Where is the link for the 2 channel glider? Says it is in the description but I do not see it.
I can't find it either
My favorite is the Versa wing.
Make a fpv board with 4 engines to make a dyi drone from home ! You could add a fpv camera quick hookups🎉
Maybe a fan and a couple refrigerator boxes and you can build a wind tunnel for more consistent testing....
I hope you guys release plans for the RV7 that was in the background! Pleeeeeeeeease??!!!! Lol