Thanks! Many designs really don't optimise standoff positions, fillets, and carbon distribution so this frame is very very stiff while keeping it reasonably light, so the performance can really be pushed. It's great fun to fly and gives you confidence with those expensive payloads
this is absolutely impressive work! my respect and admiration! the drone looks very cool with many functions and also great characteristics! you are my idol!
I have a similiar type 5" x8 lifter and while outside its dope and similiar performing as yours inside im almost afraid to fly it but because you have a min throttle which already pushes sooo much air to hover and fly forward that everything not bit heavy will for sure pushed around if you know what i mean. Does your x4 frame version of the kd50 behave in that regard "indoor friendlier" ? Just an an example ( and I know this is too much of what I want ) with a 2.5" naked gopro build i can fly in super markets almost exactly above the products on the shelves and maybe some teaboxes can be tossed around. We put it back all good but with such a 5" x8 im even sure decorations or so could catch some of the pushed air fall over :D So I was really limited to fly over empty ground like the paths a customer would choose but not like revealing diagonally how large the market is etc because 100% all products in the whole shelf would be wiped from it when I would fly above it
I definitely understand your concerns. It's just a physics problem though, it's all about the payload you're carrying. If you want to lift a 1.2kg camera then you're going to have 1.2kg of thrust coming out the bottom (plus drone and battery mass). There's nothing that can be done about that. It hasn't really got anything to do with the drone. I would recommend the KD50 S and a Blackmagic Micro 4KG2. The whole setup will be under 1.5kg
I would highly recommend looking at the total weight of the build. This is by far the main factor that will determine down wash (like 95%, the other 5% is maybe props size and pitch). Any questions feel free to message me through my website listing and I'm happy to help!
Thank you! It took me a while to figure it all out but yeah it just made sense to me when I got there, then it was a lot of design and testing to make it work really well
Thanks! I'm using the t-motor f7 pro on this one, it's great for easy ESC wiring, but you need to test for a good gyro because lots have bad ones. Although that's the same for all FCs now unfortunately
How about prop wash issue with the 8 motors facing the same direction in a configuration like that? Do you really have a significant improvment in the lifting and control sides?
It's no problem at all, you can see there's no prop wash in the flight footage. I wouldn't say significant, but it had great control and it's so much easier to build and maintain than others by doing it this way
Cool design. If you made the bottom plate such that it didn't have a front and back, it should be possible to eliminate 16 holes on each of the top and bottom plates. If the bottom plate could be mounted in one of two ways, you could have it mounted one way for the X-8 option and mounted 180 degrees when making a X-4 quad. Does the bottom plate really need a front and back? I'd think getting rid of a bunch of holes would make up for the loss of a designated front and back on the bottom plate. Again, cool design. Thanks for sharing the video.
You know what that's a really good idea! I never thought of that. It wouldn't remove any holes from the top plate because the only duplicate holes are on the bottom plate, but yeah I think I could design it in a way where you just turn the bottom plate 180° if you want to use it to connect to the top plate instead of the middle plate. The extra holes don't really weaken the plate as there's more than enough additional material around them, however it would definitely feel cleaner without the offset holes. I might have a go at changing it for this one I'm not sure, but I'll definitely try this idea for my next X8 design. Thanks for the idea!!
@@kddrones "It wouldn't remove any holes from the top plate" Right. I was thinking the top and bottom had the same hole pattern. My first thought was that all three frames were identical but while watching the video I saw the middle frame didn't have any recessed screws (you mentioned this in the video too). I think my initial thought stuck in my mind when suggesting the change. Again, cool design. I look forward to watching more of your videos.
@@kddrones One more suggestion: I'm a big fan of wire harness tape. I think it's much kinder to wire (and hands) than zip ties. I purchased some a few years ago and I now consider it a necessity when building drones. The official name of the product (based on my Amazon order history) is: *"Tesa 51608, 15m X 19mm Adhesive Wiring Loom Cloth Tape Original Isoband 5 Pcs Pack"* I don't know how this brand compares with other wire harness tape since the Tesa tape is the only kind I've used. I'd be amazed if you also didn't like it.
Ahhh yeah lots of people like it, I'm actually not a huge fan. Just adds weight (I know it's not much) and I've never had a problem with zip ties and they're quicker and easier to put on and replace. The tape looks clean for sure so definitely something people can do on their own builds, it's just not for me
From about 2:30 - 5:00 flight time depending on how you fly and your payload and battery. Top speed probably around 100km/h but it's really not designed for speed, it's for heavy payloads with guards to make it safer flying around people and in smaller spaces
I'm using the t-motor f7 pro in this one, it had a wiring harness already made up designed to go to 2 ESCs, although you can just make your own, you just need a FC with 8 motor outputs
Not for the ESCs, you just need to use the X8 configuration and have 8 motors setup in betaflight, then make sure all motors are connected and have G connected on the 2nd ECS, but don't have power from 2nd ESC to the FC or you'll get a voltage loop which isn't good. Just power the FC from V and G on the main battery pads, not from the ESC output
You can do it however you like. The BEC just has an input V and G, and an output V and G (5/8/12V options). I have the BEC getting power directly from the ESC pads, so as soon as the main drone battery is plugged in the camera has power. You should not run the BEC through the FC because it will draw way too much current and either not work, or break your FC.
@ Hello, what format do you record in Red Komodo? When I recorded 17:9 rd3 I couldn't get the data in Gyroflow. Will you make a youtube video about this?
That's weird, I think you should get gyro data in all r3d recording modes. It works fine for me in gyroflow with all settings I've tried. Make sure you're on the latest Gyroflow and you have the r3d thing installed (it should prompt you the first time you drop in r3d footage)
Good question! I will aim to always have spare parts available. I cannot promise they will always be priced the same (all spare parts add up to a little bit more than the whole frame cost), but I will always be able to get parts made in reasonably short notice even if I'm not selling a frame anymore. While a frame is still being sold, spare parts will be easy to get directly from KD Drones
Thanks! The footage is actually the BM pocket 4k with laowa 7.5mm, but weighed up to be about the same as the Komodo, I fly the Komodo with the laowa 9mm for a similar FOV but I just already had the BM footage on this drone ready to go for the edit so it was easier, but similar payload and the Komodo flies the same
Only just noticed your reply sorry dude! Thanks for the info. Was going to ask about the lens on the black magic too. Do you fly the laowa 9mm on the red for work too? Or do you go a bit longer? 16mm or even 24mm? Also where is the focus set to is it infinity? I'm just starting out flying fpv. Got an avata 2 and as I watch more videos I realise its not a 'propa' fpv but its soo much fun!
Yeah 9mm on the red, it's light and works well, the 15mm also is good but it's heavy so I don't use it as much, but looks good. Always set focus to infinity yeah, or a bit back if filming something up close. Yeah the avata is great fun! I know what you mean about a step up though
Flying hard like in the first clip, about 2:30-2:45, flying like a cinewhoop in the second clip, about 4:30, and you can get 5:30 with a lighter payload like 1000g, that's all on a 6s 5000
Good question, but no they don't get hot at all, they get a bit warm when pulling hard moves, but all 8 motors heat up the same amount. I've never had motors heat up more with a pusher than a puller design, if you think about it there's still lots of airflow on the intake side
Cheers, no I wouldn't suggest that on this one it's too small, but maybe on the KD70 if you check out that video. Still a 7" X8 is small for a gimbal, you really want 10" X8 or larger
It's happened to me... (I mounted the crossfire antenna badly once and it got destroyed by the props and I failsafed). Luckily I only ever fly something like this in a way that nobody would be in danger if it fell down, you've always got to work under the assumption it could happen anytime, broken gear is nothing compared to hurting someone
QUAD GOT SOME SHAKINESS AT HIGH SPEED .ITS NOT TUNED FULLY. NAD ITS CRAZY HARD TO DO WHIT THIS SETUP. BUT LOW SPEED FLYING IS FINE.GET OTHER MOTORS GET Rcinpower WASP MAJOR 1860KV . IDEA PRETTY GOOD THOUGH
It's perfectly tuned by Brian White who I assume you know if you know anything about tuning, all movements are from my sticks, it's locked in. For motors, nope... Xnova are better, and the wasp major is way too small for this setup, I'm using 2806.5 motors. I appreciate your enthusiasm though 😂
Haha I made my logo years ago, before they even existed, but I won't get annoyed at them for ripping off my logo because a propeller inside a triangle isn't exactly revolutionary 😂
buying from EU (importing fpv drone kits to EU) and flying fpv drone as shown in the demovideo is completly illegal in whole europe including UK which has still nearly the same drone rules as EU, wondering how this growing fpv business can go on and on completly ignoring the drone rules... there is no wild west here, no one needs drone cowboys... such big fpv drone are clearly very dangerous and it is still not possible to get permission for this kind of drones even not in specific category, especially not flying so close to and over uninvolved people!
I'm in the UK. It is completely legal for me to fly this drone and others like it here with the right authorisation and in the right location. I'm a full time FPV pilot as my main job, I know the rules here very well. I sell frame kits, what anyone does with them is their responsibility. I fly legally and safely in the UK, and when I'm flying with other people around me, they are involved, or I'm flying something where I can legally fly up to or over them. When you don't know the full circumstances or the local laws I suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself. The UK does not have the same restrictions on heavier drones that the EU does, and even then there are many professional pilots flying cinelifters safely and legally in the EU, so I really don't know what you're talking about.
If you register yourself and your drone over 250gm, have the right insurance and training then it is legal to fly and fly for work, b not sure where you are getting your "FPV cowboy" stance from.... Maybe you should be careful of your uneducated, and "cowboy" comments... If you want I can give you the website to the BASL here in Switzerland, where you can register your FPV drones...(Even though officially CH isn't in the EU....)
The upper prop is blocked by the lower prop/motor and frame, there is no point in mounting the upper prop as a pusher. I am sure that if you test both configurations there will be no relevant difference in thrust and efficiency.
The lower prop is what's different to all other X8 whoops. They usually have the props facing each other, and therefore the bottom prop also has arms blocking the exit airflow. This one has clear exit airflow for the bottom props. It is more efficient, and more importantly it enables the frame to be taken apart and put back together without desoldering the motors. The reason to have the upper prop in a pusher is it makes it safer to not have the top open as much, and it gives a larger top surface to mount the camera, and allows the naked BM mounting. Every single person that has tried this design and also tried one of the other X8 whoop designs has said it is so much easier and nicer to build.
Im genuinely impressed by the flight performance, it flies much better than I expected
Thanks! Many designs really don't optimise standoff positions, fillets, and carbon distribution so this frame is very very stiff while keeping it reasonably light, so the performance can really be pushed. It's great fun to fly and gives you confidence with those expensive payloads
this is absolutely impressive work! my respect and admiration! the drone looks very cool with many functions and also great characteristics! you are my idol!
Thank you! I appreciate it
Need this next!! 😍🤩 subbed, can’t wait for the next builds hurry up with those 😅
Haha thanks! They're coming slowly just takes timeee
Absolutely awesome! Wish I would have gone this route before picking up my Highroller X8
I appreciate it! You know where you find one for your next whoop 🙂
This thing rips! Would love to do a build video on this 😍
I would love to see you do one!
I’m looking to build my first cinelifter soon. This looks very well designed and the footage impressed me!
Appreciate it! I hope this video is helpful when you start building
Hi! Great footage! What camera settings did you use to achieve that look? Thanks! 💪😄🔥
Thanks! Nothing special really, just exposing properly and the built in colour space transforms inside DaVinci Resolve
Look's very impressive. What is the speed that it can reach wile carrying a camera?
Thanks! Probably about 80km/h or so but it's not really built for speed. You could put higher KV motors on but it'll be less efficient
@@kddrones thanks
Really well thought out frame
Thanks Brian! And thank you for providing the first great tune on it ages ago when I did the original
That looks absolutely awesome 🔥🔥🔥👌
Cheers mate!
I have a similiar type 5" x8 lifter and while outside its dope and similiar performing as yours inside im almost afraid to fly it but because you have a min throttle which already pushes sooo much air to hover and fly forward that everything not bit heavy will for sure pushed around if you know what i mean. Does your x4 frame version of the kd50 behave in that regard "indoor friendlier" ?
Just an an example ( and I know this is too much of what I want ) with a 2.5" naked gopro build i can fly in super markets almost exactly above the products on the shelves and maybe some teaboxes can be tossed around. We put it back all good but with such a 5" x8 im even sure decorations or so could catch some of the pushed air fall over :D So I was really limited to fly over empty ground like the paths a customer would choose but not like revealing diagonally how large the market is etc because 100% all products in the whole shelf would be wiped from it when I would fly above it
I definitely understand your concerns. It's just a physics problem though, it's all about the payload you're carrying. If you want to lift a 1.2kg camera then you're going to have 1.2kg of thrust coming out the bottom (plus drone and battery mass). There's nothing that can be done about that. It hasn't really got anything to do with the drone.
I would recommend the KD50 S and a Blackmagic Micro 4KG2. The whole setup will be under 1.5kg
@ that's why I'm eyeing on that frame and also the Halorc 4" even though it may have worse freestyle performance as it's intended for a specific need
I would highly recommend looking at the total weight of the build. This is by far the main factor that will determine down wash (like 95%, the other 5% is maybe props size and pitch). Any questions feel free to message me through my website listing and I'm happy to help!
Thsi seems like a hell of a good concept. I'm shocked this hasn't be done before.
Thank you! It took me a while to figure it all out but yeah it just made sense to me when I got there, then it was a lot of design and testing to make it work really well
whata brilliant frame... might order soon..
Thanks! I have them in stock ☺️
Looks great 👍
What flight controller are you using?
Thanks! I'm using the t-motor f7 pro on this one, it's great for easy ESC wiring, but you need to test for a good gyro because lots have bad ones. Although that's the same for all FCs now unfortunately
How about prop wash issue with the 8 motors facing the same direction in a configuration like that? Do you really have a significant improvment in the lifting and control sides?
It's no problem at all, you can see there's no prop wash in the flight footage. I wouldn't say significant, but it had great control and it's so much easier to build and maintain than others by doing it this way
I wanna hear some raw audio or ground audio from that flight test! Thing rips!
DM me on Instagram and I'll share some with you!
Cool design.
If you made the bottom plate such that it didn't have a front and back, it should be possible to eliminate 16 holes on each of the top and bottom plates.
If the bottom plate could be mounted in one of two ways, you could have it mounted one way for the X-8 option and mounted 180 degrees when making a X-4 quad.
Does the bottom plate really need a front and back? I'd think getting rid of a bunch of holes would make up for the loss of a designated front and back on the bottom plate.
Again, cool design. Thanks for sharing the video.
You know what that's a really good idea! I never thought of that. It wouldn't remove any holes from the top plate because the only duplicate holes are on the bottom plate, but yeah I think I could design it in a way where you just turn the bottom plate 180° if you want to use it to connect to the top plate instead of the middle plate.
The extra holes don't really weaken the plate as there's more than enough additional material around them, however it would definitely feel cleaner without the offset holes. I might have a go at changing it for this one I'm not sure, but I'll definitely try this idea for my next X8 design. Thanks for the idea!!
@@kddrones "It wouldn't remove any holes from the top plate"
Right. I was thinking the top and bottom had the same hole pattern.
My first thought was that all three frames were identical but while watching the video I saw the middle frame didn't have any recessed screws (you mentioned this in the video too). I think my initial thought stuck in my mind when suggesting the change.
Again, cool design. I look forward to watching more of your videos.
@@kddrones One more suggestion:
I'm a big fan of wire harness tape. I think it's much kinder to wire (and hands) than zip ties. I purchased some a few years ago and I now consider it a necessity when building drones.
The official name of the product (based on my Amazon order history) is:
*"Tesa 51608, 15m X 19mm Adhesive Wiring Loom Cloth Tape Original Isoband 5 Pcs Pack"*
I don't know how this brand compares with other wire harness tape since the Tesa tape is the only kind I've used. I'd be amazed if you also didn't like it.
Ahhh yeah lots of people like it, I'm actually not a huge fan. Just adds weight (I know it's not much) and I've never had a problem with zip ties and they're quicker and easier to put on and replace. The tape looks clean for sure so definitely something people can do on their own builds, it's just not for me
What’s the flight time and top speed with this build, looking very good
From about 2:30 - 5:00 flight time depending on how you fly and your payload and battery. Top speed probably around 100km/h but it's really not designed for speed, it's for heavy payloads with guards to make it safer flying around people and in smaller spaces
@@kddrones still perfect speed for something like this
This is awesome drone bro..❤❤❤
Thanks! It's great fun to fly
Cool! What is the flight controller? And what connector are you use for splitting to both ESC?
I'm using the t-motor f7 pro in this one, it had a wiring harness already made up designed to go to 2 ESCs, although you can just make your own, you just need a FC with 8 motor outputs
@@kddrones Nice! Thank you!
It needs some specific settings in Betaflight for two ESC?
Not for the ESCs, you just need to use the X8 configuration and have 8 motors setup in betaflight, then make sure all motors are connected and have G connected on the 2nd ECS, but don't have power from 2nd ESC to the FC or you'll get a voltage loop which isn't good. Just power the FC from V and G on the main battery pads, not from the ESC output
Bitchin' Camero Cool stuff, man, rippin' that cinema camera. One day, maybe.
Looks epic🤘🏻😁
Thanks!
Which bec circuit did you use for komodo? brand model
Matek 12S Pro BEC, 12V 4.5A
@@kddrones Can we connect a battery directly to the bec circuit and get output to the camera, or does it have to be FC in the middle?
You can do it however you like. The BEC just has an input V and G, and an output V and G (5/8/12V options). I have the BEC getting power directly from the ESC pads, so as soon as the main drone battery is plugged in the camera has power. You should not run the BEC through the FC because it will draw way too much current and either not work, or break your FC.
@ Hello, what format do you record in Red Komodo? When I recorded 17:9 rd3 I couldn't get the data in Gyroflow. Will you make a youtube video about this?
That's weird, I think you should get gyro data in all r3d recording modes. It works fine for me in gyroflow with all settings I've tried. Make sure you're on the latest Gyroflow and you have the r3d thing installed (it should prompt you the first time you drop in r3d footage)
Very clever design.
Thank you! It was a lot of testing and development to get it there
How loud is it in dB from 10, 50, 100, 150+ ft away?
No idea sorry, it's pretty loud close to you, not so bad when you get further away
When this cinewhoop becomes popular, how difficult will it be to get replacement parts?
Good question! I will aim to always have spare parts available. I cannot promise they will always be priced the same (all spare parts add up to a little bit more than the whole frame cost), but I will always be able to get parts made in reasonably short notice even if I'm not selling a frame anymore. While a frame is still being sold, spare parts will be easy to get directly from KD Drones
@@kddrones thank you so much for the feedback.
Thats creative. 2 in 1 Lifter.
Whats the motor KV?
Thanks! I'm using 1700kv, it's a good balance of power and efficiency, and xnova motors are really good
Very nice. Might need me one of these!
Thanks! Check out the website 🙂
Great video, what lens did you use for this test footage?
Thanks! The footage is actually the BM pocket 4k with laowa 7.5mm, but weighed up to be about the same as the Komodo, I fly the Komodo with the laowa 9mm for a similar FOV but I just already had the BM footage on this drone ready to go for the edit so it was easier, but similar payload and the Komodo flies the same
Only just noticed your reply sorry dude! Thanks for the info. Was going to ask about the lens on the black magic too. Do you fly the laowa 9mm on the red for work too? Or do you go a bit longer? 16mm or even 24mm? Also where is the focus set to is it infinity? I'm just starting out flying fpv. Got an avata 2 and as I watch more videos I realise its not a 'propa' fpv but its soo much fun!
Yeah 9mm on the red, it's light and works well, the 15mm also is good but it's heavy so I don't use it as much, but looks good. Always set focus to infinity yeah, or a bit back if filming something up close. Yeah the avata is great fun! I know what you mean about a step up though
@@kddrones cheers. I can imagine your going to be busy with these frames. You come across really well in your videos too. Ill be following your work!
Thanks, I appreciate it!
What sort of motor and esc combo is in there?
Xnova 2806.5 1700kv and Hobbywing 60A ESCs, all my recommended parts can be found on the website
What is the flight time u get with this setup ?
Flying hard like in the first clip, about 2:30-2:45, flying like a cinewhoop in the second clip, about 4:30, and you can get 5:30 with a lighter payload like 1000g, that's all on a 6s 5000
Wouldn't the upper pusher motors get hotter than the lower ones? Pushers without prop wash are notorious for getting hot soon, hence the curiosity...
Good question, but no they don't get hot at all, they get a bit warm when pulling hard moves, but all 8 motors heat up the same amount. I've never had motors heat up more with a pusher than a puller design, if you think about it there's still lots of airflow on the intake side
amazing
nice
I made my tiny whoop watch this video for inspiration
Love that 😂😂
Awesome...
Sick
Cool!
впечатляющий аппарат, с удовольствием бы погонял на нем
Give me a big one as my personal vehicle
why i think cause of the arm length make this just like more snappy and not smooth at all
Sorry, I have no idea what you're trying to say
Nice frame ! Can you put a Ronin on it
Cheers, no I wouldn't suggest that on this one it's too small, but maybe on the KD70 if you check out that video. Still a 7" X8 is small for a gimbal, you really want 10" X8 or larger
@@kddrones maybe a other project for you ^^
I'm sure I will eventually, just so busy as I'm a full time FPV pilot, so frame design takes more time
Imagine having a failsafe...
It's happened to me... (I mounted the crossfire antenna badly once and it got destroyed by the props and I failsafed). Luckily I only ever fly something like this in a way that nobody would be in danger if it fell down, you've always got to work under the assumption it could happen anytime, broken gear is nothing compared to hurting someone
Could happen to any drone
QUAD GOT SOME SHAKINESS AT HIGH SPEED .ITS NOT TUNED FULLY. NAD ITS CRAZY HARD TO DO WHIT THIS SETUP. BUT LOW SPEED FLYING IS FINE.GET OTHER MOTORS
GET
Rcinpower WASP MAJOR 1860KV . IDEA PRETTY GOOD THOUGH
It's perfectly tuned by Brian White who I assume you know if you know anything about tuning, all movements are from my sticks, it's locked in. For motors, nope... Xnova are better, and the wasp major is way too small for this setup, I'm using 2806.5 motors. I appreciate your enthusiasm though 😂
@@kddrones i do use his soft. and i can see how difficult tune can be in that setup .its like yaw-wash impossible to tune. just inherent in frame.....
Nope, actually pretty easy to tune because of how stiff the frame is. No yaw washout here, it's got plenty of power if you use the right motors
Did you intentionally rip off the Rotorhazard logo or is it just a crazy coincidence?
Haha I made my logo years ago, before they even existed, but I won't get annoyed at them for ripping off my logo because a propeller inside a triangle isn't exactly revolutionary 😂
Wtf is the aberration this cinewhoop
Often you have to do something different to improve
buying from EU (importing fpv drone kits to EU) and flying fpv drone as shown in the demovideo is completly illegal in whole europe including UK which has still nearly the same drone rules as EU, wondering how this growing fpv business can go on and on completly ignoring the drone rules... there is no wild west here, no one needs drone cowboys... such big fpv drone are clearly very dangerous and it is still not possible to get permission for this kind of drones even not in specific category, especially not flying so close to and over uninvolved people!
I'm in the UK. It is completely legal for me to fly this drone and others like it here with the right authorisation and in the right location. I'm a full time FPV pilot as my main job, I know the rules here very well. I sell frame kits, what anyone does with them is their responsibility.
I fly legally and safely in the UK, and when I'm flying with other people around me, they are involved, or I'm flying something where I can legally fly up to or over them. When you don't know the full circumstances or the local laws I suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself. The UK does not have the same restrictions on heavier drones that the EU does, and even then there are many professional pilots flying cinelifters safely and legally in the EU, so I really don't know what you're talking about.
If you register yourself and your drone over 250gm, have the right insurance and training then it is legal to fly and fly for work, b not sure where you are getting your "FPV cowboy" stance from.... Maybe you should be careful of your uneducated, and "cowboy" comments... If you want I can give you the website to the BASL here in Switzerland, where you can register your FPV drones...(Even though officially CH isn't in the EU....)
This statement is completely false.
The upper prop is blocked by the lower prop/motor and frame, there is no point in mounting the upper prop as a pusher. I am sure that if you test both configurations there will be no relevant difference in thrust and efficiency.
The lower prop is what's different to all other X8 whoops. They usually have the props facing each other, and therefore the bottom prop also has arms blocking the exit airflow. This one has clear exit airflow for the bottom props. It is more efficient, and more importantly it enables the frame to be taken apart and put back together without desoldering the motors. The reason to have the upper prop in a pusher is it makes it safer to not have the top open as much, and it gives a larger top surface to mount the camera, and allows the naked BM mounting.
Every single person that has tried this design and also tried one of the other X8 whoop designs has said it is so much easier and nicer to build.