I don't think "it's so private server-ey" is ever a good take, people say that about literally any kind of update they don't like (to me being able to buy stuff rapidly from shops as the main way to obtain it is "private server-ey") - if you're good with blood packs being added as a qol update to fix that specific issue I see no reason why you shouldn't be in favour of a method actually integrated into the game. That being said, I heavily agree that skilling has been horrifically overlooked and needs way more updates on the level of sepulchre, and I don't know if this is the most interesting or engaging way to get blood runes en masse.
Yeah, agreed. As much as I enjoy Sae Bae's content, it feels like his go-to response any time he doesn't like something is to call it either private server-y or toontown, and every time it makes me roll my eyes a little because of how much of an empty criticism it is, even if I completely agree with his take
Here's how the pure essence thing works, as I understand it. You mine tainted essence, then process it in an extractor. From there, you can either claim the product as pure essence (for no gp cost), OR you can claim the product as the new resource.
Shopscape is literally more against the ironman spirit than this place. At least here you'll still be runecrafting yourself. When you talked with Connor, he mentioned something like catching newts instead of eyes of newt packs. This seems like a similar solution. I know that we rather want to nerf a lot of things instantly, but the community will not be on board with that, so we have to take babysteps. Also I like that your Cosmic Underworld has more engaging gameplay, but I really don't like that you can pick your RC altar, it kind of makes it pointless to use any other altar.
But he wants shopscape nerfed as well. Neither should exist rather than one or the other. I don’t think you understand his point or atleast didn’t present it correct in your comment
I was personally for things like Forestry, including the teas which was really disappointed they scrapped, but I am NOT a fan of the Scar RC they are proposing. I have a 2,100 total HCIM and would say bloods are already as common as water runes. We have 50% higher yield rc outfit, 50% higher yield blood essence, 10% higher yield diary with an additional 10% increased essence rate, and it is afk. I don't buy any runes from shops as an iron and have never ran out of any rune yet. Bloods have been perpetually in white stack to the point I cast blood barrage just for the fun of it as my water stack is lower than the bloods for barrage/bursting. I personally hate instances in the game for irons that trade GP to exp. It goes so much against the iron experience and essentially creates a grand exchange for irons. I nearly have 99 smithing banked from actually partaking in mining activities, yet the average iron these days will just GP stack the ore shop of all of its gold ore until they have 99 banked. A lot of people mention this new update is basically just like sandstone to sand, but that too was awful as it killed off nearly every other crafting method for irons. I still do all the old methods like jewelry, battlestaves, d'hide, but now some people do the entire 99 grind off of nothing but GP to sand. My biggest issue with new updates like this is they add it without updating any of the old methods, essentially eclipsing ever past method for whatever the new shiny feature is. Forestry did this well as you could do the new shiny method, but they also updated all the old woodcutting methods making it so that almost nothing was left behind the new skilling curve. Things like tick teaks and afk redwoods are still viable despite forestry existing, but things like Scar RC just kills old methods without updating them at all.
I like this option over Rune Packs purely because it involves more skilling reqs and perks. Like sure, you wouldn't need to be Runecrafting for hours with 61 runes made per essence, but having stuff like the Colossal Pouch would still reduce the number of trips you'd need to make and your other buffs like the Outfit would still help you craft additional runes. If you just add Blood Rune packs, then what is the point of getting 77 RC or RC buffs on an Iron? You'd just shop and hop, but more quickly with Rune Packs. I do agree that it would be nicer to have a more engaging method than the bulk of the activity come from paying GP, but if this method was more engaging and made half the runes per hour (50K), it still could incentivize irons to buy from shops if they have GP and just wanted the runes quickly.
spot on. Sae keeps ignoring people telling him it involves RC purely because he wants it to be 30 hours of RC to match the amount of runes, but then ignores that DOESNT COMPETE with shops, which is ALL this update is tryign to do. You can still RC blood runes regularly for 25 hours to get the 250k blood runes, and not spend ANY gp on it. But thats just training RC. Its not faster or better than shop buying and re-earning GP, this method IS.
Why is gold some taboo resource that ironmen are not allowed to use? It's a resource like any other and should have some uses. I earned my gp on an iron, which is way harder to do than on a main, and I want to have productive uses for it.
It does have uses. You need it to repair armour, buy things for your POH, pay for services like sandstone grinder, decanting potions, and making planks. This is just buying runes. It just feels better in a game mode where you are supposed to get your own resources and gear for you to use the runecraft skill to get runes, rather than just buying it
@@Physicismits very apparent youve never been an endgame iron nor taken any time to look into what its like if you really think any of those things put anything other than a negligible dent in an endgame iron cashstack.
@@protobones i was just offering suggestions for uses for money that make sense in ironman mode off the top of my head. Bank slots is another good money sink which also fits within the ironman play style
@5:30 you think this update is more “private servery” than shopscape is? Have you played a private server before because they don’t make good creative updates, you buy everything from shops and go right to pvm/pvp
9:10 no lol. I think you once were rambling about how tedious it was to catch implings and you wanted jagex to add some area where it was just you and implings, no obstacles or anything and you’d be able to “go ham” lol
I think you are forgetting about the costs to do this activity. Its a little misleading to quote runes per hour produced without the costs that goes into it. The ones you noted in the video are not sustainable for 99.99% of ironmen, and crafting runes is still more sustainable and profitable.
bro, you live in 2007? ironmans get millions of gp eveyrwhere nowdays and we dont ahve any use for it, sure you can buy 99 flecthing and stuff haha, but thats not importen, even then, we still have millions of gold
The fact that people are already playing shopmanscape means they'll do this instead, further disincentivizing actually crafting runes. They should work on better real rc methods and nerf shops/drops instead
Honestly watching this video gives a better insight where your mental is at, and honestly I agree with making skilling fun. If skilling was on par or more fun than pvm that would be the single biggest change for this game and I truly wish that was the case. However I still do wish there was even a bandaid fix for now because right now it's awful hopping a few hundred worlds to fill up a weapon one time. Maybe 250k blood runes per hour is too much but even still I don't think we should remove shopscape's 100k an hour without first addressing actually training the skill being the primary method.
Think the core of what you're saying is that it's not good game design for irons to be able to buy significant amounts of runes with gp and this update basically legitimizes that ingame. This update just allows irons to cosplay that they're skilling while basically just buying bloods from the ge with extra steps. Agree that main source of runes should be rcing but that's a little far gone with boss drops, etc. But I don't think people are understanding that point. Your point: spirit of ironman mode is to get resources yourself through skilling methods, and have to train all skills and spend a good amount of time doing these skills in order to upkeep costs of weapons, food, etc. And this update is just shopscape disguised as a skilling update (potentially meaning they think this issue is addressed and there won't be a good way to make a lot of runes from skilling from an extended period of time. Runes in the meantime will probably be dropped en masse by the next released boss). Most pvm ironmen: I want to go back into chambers/toa/whatever and want the runes to do it by using the drops/alchables that my favorite boss shat out but I think buying from shops doesn't feel good so I'd rather jagex put a reskin on it so I can feel like I'm rcing even though I'm basically just exchanging gp for runes At least this is what I think the point you're trying to make is, but I think you aren't making your point very clearly if it is..
I’m an end game iron with all bis gear but I only get a few hours to play a day most days . So I’m stuck in between a decision to either spend my few hours crafting runes for shadow/sang/ scy or just scrape bottoms and always have no charges for all my best items that I spent some good time trying to acquire . I’d much rather be able to spend my gp that I don’t use on the iron and acquire huge amount that will last me a month or two of using
how many times is bro gonna read a comment, say “i don’t know what this means” and then repeat his awful take that hinges on his convenient misunderstanding? you call the feature a “private server thingy” without any substantiation and your responses to criticisms are always off because your reading comprehension is apparently so low that youtube comments are beyond you.
While the quantity of runes per hour sounds insane, it is still a cost of 400gp per rune which is the same cost as the shops, I think they should up the cost to 30k per essence making it 500gp/blood rune though if they do not give us packs since those would have inflating prices as stock goes down. I also would love to see Jagex refine skilling and make it fun and engaging.
I feel like the fixation on 250k runes per hour is weird. Can't you buy like 1m runes per hour for things that have packs, like fire runes? Isn't this technically less egregious than packs in terms of runes per hour? I can agree that it's kind of a cheap-feeling way to connect it to runecrafting, it doesn't really feel like a runecrafting update. But technically speaking, it achieves the same thing as adding packs (because we're still paying 400 per blood rune) but creates at least a bit of work/resistance that should be less tedious than buying and opening rune packs/hopping worlds. I actually agree with you that I'd technically prefer a way to actually runecraft what I need, and I'm personally not opposed to 40k bloods per hour. The problem there is the economy for mains, there would have to be some way to solve that, and I'm not smart enough to figure that one out. This is probably the "safest" option in terms of 1. "solving" shopscape and 2. not touching economy for mains. It's not a solution I'm super crazy about but I'm not opposed to it either, and I think some of the "game-ruining" statements are a little excessive.
as a person agreeing with sae bae you make a good point. but we dont need a safe option. runepacks would solve this with no impact whatsoever in a matter of seconds with 0 dev time.
Okay this would achieve the same thing as packs but, as you said in the video, it would make the concept of straight up buying a huge number of bloods seem more legitimate by making it into actual content. It would be way easier down the line to say "we've got a solution, we're getting rid of those blood rune packs now", than it will be to delete this. I think the team feels they need to fix this problem quickly but don't have enough time to do what they'd rather do, which is fix it organically. I'd rather just wait.
This method wouldn't exclude the niche of the Cosmic Underworld or anything else in that space (engaging + rewarding content, with limited input cost). In fact, they could compliment each other well, since the cost associated is very steep at scale - so there'd be a balance of doing this other content for less resources per hour, but you can do it for longer. Might be worth considering your somewhat unique position as a very end-game ironman also, which gets the privilege of avoiding some nagging parts of this method (getting base stats, getting the gp). Let's take an example: Given the 400gp/rune rate for bloods, 100k blood runes would run 40m gp, which is about as much as you get from getting a bowfa on rate at CG. This player would spend half an hour to get their 100k blood runes, but had to do 60-70hrs of "prep" at CG to afford that. Assuming they had spent that 60-70hrs at true bloods, they'd have over triple the blood runes than through this method. This is also ignoring that they probably need that gp for other things like maxing, kingdom, etc, so it might be more worth to spend on those things before building a blood runes stack. Basically, this method gives an expensive, low XP method for blood runes. The cost prevents this from being a camped method, and still leaves room for a lower cost, but more engaging method to get more blood runes. The take of "just give blood rune packs in stead" seems a bit out of touch (respectfully) to non-maxed/non-end-game players valuation of gp and time investment to get the skills to effectively use this method. Shopscape isn't great, but this method at least would use skill progression and resource management to make it more thoughtful than "gp=blood rune" from the minute you get off tutorial island.
I hope you don't take the backlash personally, but maybe use it as a reminder of how important clearly communicating ideas is (especially when they might seem "controversial"). A lot of "obvious" sentiments often have to be spelled out (which also makes it easier for oneself to realise what might not be so obvious after all)
16:30 I would genuinely go the other way, I would rather have this update and remove all rune packs in the game than add rune packs for every rune. I genuinely think the analogy of the sandstone grinder is very good even if you still can't quite see it. I agree that skilling could be a lot more engaging, and that this is still a more bandaid fix when compared to a full rebalance of runecrafting, but I also think that this is a very good solution when operating within the boundaries of how runecrafting works today. It doesn't break the economy, it integrates with the lore, it speeds up a tedious and unengaging activity (hopping worlds), and it also helps with issues for other runes such as combo runes which I would love more of for casting veng and humidify in cox. While I understand that you want these skills looked at before sailing, I personally believe that sailing is an amazing opportunity to start a skill from scratch with these ideas in mind, and take what they learn from that to rework old skills. Runecrafting is Old School, this update still feels Old School to me.
@@lullfig1875 I hear you but in the blog post for this they specifically say "Even though this approach is a tad more involved than making something like rune packs, it's still very light on time requirements from developers and artists, so won't adversely impact any of the other content we've got planned in the coming weeks"
‘Idk it’s just so private servery idk what to say’ is as good of an explanation that you’re willing to give? That is a terribly weak argument, what’s wrong with a slightly more engaging form of shop-scape????
I think the bigger issue is skilling. It’s not engaging, rewarding or new. They only add mini games at this point and no actual new items in skills. I love all sorts of the game but it’s just ehp scape and pvm for money. It’s stale and they need to fill out the content for 99s. Rather than barb fish at 50/99, granite, wintertod, gold smithing, teaks, dragon bones. What happened to unlocking better content at higher levels.
And then there are other skills that are just absolutely busted. Like fishing and woodcutting. If OSRS was designed as a new game in 2024, it would be really stupid to predict that the skilling meta for certain skills would be to farm the LOWER LEVEL resources. It makes ZERO sense that the best xp in the game for woodcutting is to cut a tree that only requires 40 woodcutting and the best for fishing is to go catch fish that only require like 50-60 fishing.
@@chessmagician2024 I guess it's because back in '04 cutting magics and fishing sharks was actually a top tier AFK money maker, so you'd exchange higher xp rates for higher profits. Very much not the case any more obviously
I like the idea of a mining sandstone style gameplay loop for gathering some kind of rc catalyst. I would also really like for it to scale heavily with mining to determine how many catalyst you get per hour. I also want rc level to scale the effectiveness of the amount of runes you get instead of gp, but i know mains might not like it. 250k runes per hour is insane, but its largely gated by gp. I'm not sure how many people will actually reach those rates.
What do you think about a buff to blood essence or such essence in general. As instead of the new extract you would get a corresponding essence. Then buff said essence so you get a x3 multiplicator instead of the current x1.5 one. Maybe even combine multiplicatively with set instead of additively. Means we would also use up the essence quicker and get runes quick that way.
So if blood packs came into the game how many runes could you buy per hour? if your main hurdle is the amount this could allow you to get per hour. Are you proposing blood packs would net you less than 250k runes per hour world hopping non stop?
Coming from someone who doesn't play an ironman, but does a lot of my skilling DIY on a very limited pure build, I think I've got a similar view towards ironman mode that you do of it being meant as the harder difficulty mode. Being able to buy mass quantities of items at a shop, yet at a higher price, doesn't reflect the game mode of being a self sufficient player and instead makes them worse mains. Most ironmen rune issues seem to be related to charged weapons, why not embrace the issues and make a pvm/runecrafting update? Some type of abyssal related boss that you can fight and harvest the essence dropped (with runecrafting) to get a small amount of runes or a decent amount of charges to the weapon you want to charge? On weapons with charges compatible with the update if you fill with max charges can take an abyssal form to have a reason for non-irons to grind for it? It gives a new form of PVM to the people who want PVM, it gives unique collectors new uniques to collect, it gives ironmen an easy solution to item charges. As long as the boss feels fun and not a pain to grind, people can get the type of enjoyment of the game they are seeking while filling up their charges and training runecrafting in the process.
You've convinced me, originally I was excited for the update, now I'm not so excited because your ideas make sense. But ill still vote yes because they aren't going get rid of shop scape anytime soon, if ever. Would be good if they polled suggesting the two options before they started development. 1. Remove shopscape and overhaul runecrafting 2. Add this mini game as suggested
25:19 that commenter was cringeworthy, but god damn you got him good trying to guess his favorite failed updates. You definitely came off as a normal person that could participate in a dialogue with his subscribers throughout this whole video. Bro did 0% discussing with other people and 100% reactionary scoffing at comments that hurt his feelings.
Yeah, that one hurt, tbh. I didn’t need to react that way. I just get annoyed when people say I have bad takes but don’t actually mention what they are.
Rune Packs: Buying Blood Runes for example: Max Number stated by Jagex in a perfect World is arround 100k / Hour. 100k divided by 250 Blood Runes per World = 400 World Hops & Buys / Hour. Elemental Rune Packs have 80 in Stock, lets take this Number: 80 * 100 * 400 = 3'200'000 Runes / Hour with Packs (explenation below) (80 Packs per World * 100 Runes per Pack * 400 World Hops per Hour) = 3,2M Runes per Hour with Packs. With Rune Packs and in a perfect world with no competition you would be able to buy 12.8 times the ammount of what Jages proposed with their update (3'200'000 divided by 250k), so the Scar is a pretty good Solution!
Quick insight from someone who has played rs3, every shop in rs3 is player specific and all stock returns in around 24 hours, so the meta has just evolved shop scape into daily shop run scape. No better.
An example he gave in the past was making mining like warden skulls. Imagine you do some afk/cooldown activity to build up to being able to do a 1t pattern and get a bunch of ore. There's definitely lots of skilling improvements that could be made in this game by embracing the rhythm of the tick system.
The problem I think is players don't know about the engaging methods. Mermaids domain, herbiboar, artifacts, aerial fishing, drift net, and blast mining are all engaging with decent xp while also not being over the top like sepulchre. But if you ask the average player what's their thoughts on any of those methods they probably won't know what you're talking about.
@@chriscohen9559 yeah I think the average player looks at the fastest xp on the wiki and goes with that without ever looking into other methods. I’m nearing max and have tried to try out every method for every skill along the way. That said, I think there are still a few where no method is enjoyable aka mining
"We reckon players will be able to obtain roughly 25,000 Extracts per hour (assuming they have the cash to afford them all). With these 25,000 Extracts, we anticipate that speedy players using the so-called 'True' Blood Altar could expect to craft somewhere in the region of 200,000 to 250,000 Blood runes per hour, depending on other factors like the use of Giant vs. Colossal pouches or how quickly they're able to complete runs." I think one way to make this idea better is to just slow down the rate that you get extracts. If crafting the runes needs to be the fast part, fine whatever. But maybe if we can only obtain 5k extracts per hour or something then it would feel better?
I gotta say you're spot on here, and the general hate shows the state of this game and irons overall. This update is not healthy for Ironman. I've said for a while that the "Essence" of Ironman mode is gone, and people just want fast resources so they can do High Level Tier PVM with Scythe/BLood fury without putting in the time. The idea and concept of Ironman was to grind and earn your rewards. This proposed update while still being a gold sink for Irons, is the literal opposite of what Ironman mode should be. The conversation should be how to make blood runecrafting or runecrafting in general provide more resources without it destroying the game/economy for all players.
I understand the criticism towards this being a band-aid fix and a bit private servery, but i cannot imagine the playerbase and the devs being keen on another major runecrafting skilling method after already getting gotr. I surely hope that the next Skilling update will satisfy the itch you're needing to scratch.
I 100% agree that shopscape should just be removed, and buying things with GP is against the spirit of ironman. I think you did a really poor job of explaining your take in the first video, glad you were able to quickly post this update. If it was between this scar thing and buying runepacks, I don't really see why they wouldn't do this scar thing. At least then people are incentivized to get 77 rc for bloods, get higher levels for different things like wraths etc. Even if using the scar thing isn't directly making you train those skills, you still need them to rc where as you can have 1 rc and buy bloods from the shop. Would love to hear your opinion on this ^ @saeder
@@lullfig1875 Because the whole idea is that shopscape is not in the true spirit of ironman. The whole idea of ironman is that you create resources for yourself utilizing the skills and monster drops in the game and you don't pay GP for things. Shops have been in ironman since the beginning but the argument is that they're against the original spirit of the game mode and should be removed.
@@chungusultimate First of all, you misquoted me. So if you're going to take the effort of putting ' ' around my words you might as well quote me properly. Secondly if you're playing ironman then you should probably touch grass also because it's an autistic game mode made for autists. Finally, I love the fact that you literally don't even have an argument for why I'm wrong, because I'm not, you simply opt for an ad hom attack. Priceless.
Personally I'd rather they completely overhaul runecrafting multipliers. For example, at 99 all elemental runes have a 20x multiplier, 2x on souls (with true altar), 2x on wrath, 4x on bloods, 8x on deaths and chaos. 3x on astral, law, nature, combination runes, and 4x on cosmics. Obviously scaling up from original levels. Then add in a high intensity method for essence but in the reverse of daeylt essence instead of giving bonus xp it gives a multiplier for runes. Having 2 options a high intensity option similarly to 1.5t daeylt vs just afk. I find it pretty awful that you need to runecraft at 99 with dairy cape for an hour to have enough bloods/deaths for 2400 casts of barrage. Rs3 ironman is actually pretty good on skilling and skilling in rs3 is WAY better than on osrs. Currently fletching t95 arrows is the only main gripe for upkeep costs as it's like 1 to 1. As most skilling methods are between 1 hour of skilling to 6-10 hours of pvm.
A big part of this that you and a lot of other people seem to be glossing over is that the scar mine is locked behind DT2, rune packs would not be. Locking this behind a grandmaster quest with high quest point, skill, and pvm ability requirements keeps it out of reach for earlygame irons to not ruin their experience, but serve it to lategame irons that require these runes in bulk. For that reason alone I'd much rather have the tainted essence grinder than catalytic rune packs.
I think people struggle with the difference between buying resources on an ironman (shopscape and scar essence) and paying gp to use a facility that improves the gameplay loop (sand grinder, demon butler). I for one, agree that shopscape just completely goes against everything ironman is meant to be and feel like we wouldn't be in this situation if shops were all across every world to irons from the start of the game mode. I love the idea of "catalytic essence" because it means getting a drop from a boss > using said drop through a skill (runecrafting) > to produce a product to then use to keep bossing. This is at its core, what ironman should be. If we can just buy the resources we need to keep pvming, then we may as well be able to buy our food, our potions, our chins. Ironmen have to play all aspects of the game, and for some reason we just disregard skilling now because of how spoilt we are with drops and shops, and its really quite sad. I really wish the devs werent scared to rebalance the game mode and push through some integrity changes, because lets be honest, none of this is ever passing as poll, shame.
I would much rather have this than blood rune packs. Screw hopping even three times to buy runes. I'm much more concerned about the ability to get pure essence from this making daeyalt less worth. If we can get 10k pure ess per hour semi-afk (potentially much more if 1.5t is possible) there will be no reason to ever mine daeyalt.
If the two are functionally equivalent in your view, you would rather have to compete and hop for packs instead of produce your own through the skill at a premium? Bad take imo. At least with their proposal accounts would need 77 rc to "buy" the blood rune "packs".
Dude, it genuinely would take 20 minutes to buy 1 million blood runes if catalytic rune packs came out and had a stock of 250. Competition would literally not be a problem after the first week because you’re done stocking up in minutes lmao
@@Saeder I don't understand how you don't see that as more than 4x more private servery than the proposed update. The rates given in the update are absurdly high, but they match potential shop rates even without packs, and you still have to RC to get the runes. Can you please explain in more detail why you think a little bit of runecrafting is worse than zero runecrafting?
Just curious how you feel about this update now that’s it’s been out for 9 months. Having unlimited runes on Ironman didn’t seem to affect anything in my opinion. Do you still feel like skilling is weaker than pvm?
A lot of people are disagreeing with you, but I actually find myself agreeing. The Ironman game mode from the start has always had a sort of DIY spirit (Do-It-Yourself, which was a playstyle back in RS2). I've heard a lot of Irons complain about the process of gathering supplies for PvM, whether it be farming runs for herbs, Runecrafting for certain runes, Smithing for Cannonballs, etc. But to me, that's the whole point of Ironman game mode. If you don't want to skill, I'm not sure Ironman mode was ever intended for you. I definitely share your fear that eventually all skilling will become irrelevant, and it will be a matter of paying GP or doing certain bosses to gather supplies, rather than the skills that were fundamentally created to provide those supplies (i.e., bossing instead of doing herb farming runs, buying runes instead of runecrafting). I agree that this update will probably pass the poll, simply because people hate shop-scape, but this isn't a situation where we only have 2 choices. There are many updates to skilling and runecrafting specifically that could address this problem. TLDR: The whole point of ironman game mode is that we DON'T trade GP for supplies. An update specifically catered for that purpose is not appealing to me in the slightest.
I get what you’re saying about how this doesn’t make you train your skills. Yeah it would take a lot of gp to sustain but the bottom line is that you would only need to train for a few hours to sustain hundreds of hours of bloods. Would you be ok with this if it was more like 30-50k per hour?
I can appreciate that he is a far-past-maxed ironman with infinite gold and billions in bank value, but it makes me laugh him saying DT2 was a fantastic update and he loves it yet only has a cumulative 200 kill count on all bosses.
No, I don't agree rune packs are better. In what way is it 'private server stuff' if anything rune packs are the private server option. This at least ties it back to the skill in some way. I agree that I'd prefer to see skilling methods improved, but barring that this is a much better option than rune packs or increased stock.
Hey Sae, just want to say that I appreciate your passion and discussion around the game. As a late game iron myself, I really appreciate how Jagex is trying to make a method that is competitive with shop hopping but doing it in a way that is integrated (at least a little bit) with runecrafting, and a more fitting way of getting an insane amount of runes that ties into the world/lore around them. However, I agree with you that 250k/hr sounds absolutely bonkers when it's put on paper, but other than that number - I guess what about it makes it feel so private server-y to you compared to blood rune packs in a shop? Is it just how convoluted the process is? I think your focus has been on the concept of ironmen having to resort to shops = bad, and Jagex's focus is that alongside 'how can we provide a solution that isn't tied to the negative stigma/gameplay loop of buying massive stocks from shops', and this was their proposed solution - to try to tie it the game world and runecrafting skill, so it's at least a thematically appropriate way to get so many of them. I thought it was at least a step in the right direction, personally. I do think it's a bit wild that people compare this to sandstone mining, because while the process is similar, you mine all the sand yourself, and even then, it caps out around 6-7k buckets/hr at maximum efficiency. This, on the other hand, is dozens of hours runecrafting bypassed with GP - granted, it's a lot of GP. Is that appropriate, considering we can just hop shops and buy 100k+ blood runes an hour already? I honestly don't know. With all of that said, I agree with the skilling. It's a shame that it's overall pretty neglected and there could definitely be more elegant solutions to make skills more engaging/rewarding with how the game is today in 2023. At the very least, I think having people like you around in the community that are clearly passionate and have a lot of care for the game is great to see and a great thing for the game/community. Despite sometimes having minority opinions, it's good to share your thoughts on things and help people understand your point of view, and vice versa.
I think we'll just agree to disagree here, but even as a group iron, shopscape blows. I want to see skilling be updated to be actually engaging and fun as well, but I think this update is MUCH better than blood rune packs. Now the numbers you can get within a specific timeframe could definitely be re-balanced, but if we put that aside - I truly don't see how you would prefer a world with rune packs over an update that fits into the design of the game and call the one that fits the design "private server-y". If the numbers were in line with what you would get world hopping in the same timeframe, this update is clearly better than rune packs. I do think youre looking at this as a proposed solution to another problem that the community hasn't fully grapsed yet, being skilling is boring AF. This update is truly a bandaid to addressing this problem irons face with obtaining high-value runes in bulk, simple as. However, a LOT more design and thought has to go into updates for skills than an update like this takes. The skill has to provide xp/hr and be rewarding, but not too much of either or it disrupts skilling metas and disrupts the game economy. My go to example of this is looking at GOTR release and the price of nature runes. Nature's have cratered as the supply of natures has gone through the roof in part due to GOTR. Ending my essay here, but I will say I think your opinions are right but just mis-aimed a little. I think this update is great because it addresses a supply issue without impacting the actual market supply of runes/GP. It addresses another component of shopscape which we agree sucks, in a way that utilizes the skill. We also agree that skilling right now is not rewarding enough, but I am saying that the design of a skilling update is a lot higher dev effort and that the things the roadmap Jagex has given us for their focuses are in a good direction, and i hope that theres skilling updates on the horizon just past the roadmap.
Your intentions are so far on the "skilling good, shopscape bad" spectrum it's kind of awesome. But I think there are some bonuses for this solution over pure shopscape: - You still need the RC level, gear, etc.. so it gives irons an incentive to train the skill - sorry if you've addressed this I only listened to 11 minutes
Sae Bae, I think I get it. It's the rate at which you're getting the blood runes for you. I was hoping at one point you would say "this is just shopscape with extra steps". That's what I think your point is. I would say that's correct too. You're paying GP, but then you don't get the runes. Then you have to actually runecraft for a couple of hours. Which isn't a big deal, runecraft should be part of the equation in the ideal scenario, but like you said, runecraft isn't an engaging skill, and the rate at which you're doing it basically makes it shopscape, so why even add it? If the solution is "dump runes into the game", then just give me blood packs. Not only that, in the blog post it says "if we added rune packs, you would be able to get runes in an ideal scenario at a rate of about 100k per hour". WHY NOT USE THAT RATE? WHY 2.5x the "ideal" rate at which ironmen can acquire the runes? I feel like if they had led with 100k/hr for the same GP, it would be a much more reasonable pitch. Hopefully as this goes farther in development they realize that the problem is that this is just shopscape with extra steps.
i dont think any iron has a problem with needing to upkeep their runes, the current problem is that the meta way to do that atm is hopping and shopping which is boring , lazy and just not fun, blood packs are a bandaid fix that still make it shopscape but atleast ur done with shopscape alot faster. this new proposed method is essentially blood rune packs but u never need to hop, and it incorporates a little bit of skilling aswell, seems like just rune packs but better no?
This update would also put a hard cap on the price of runes for mains. Yes they're lower than the proposed costs, but this ensures they will never go above that.
My main question when it comes to being anti shopscape; at some point gp should be usable. On an iron you finish a raid, get nice alcheables, alch them, and if shopscape is eliminated you have a worthless pile of nothing. If you eliminate shops, what good is gp? It's ironman mode, not "no currencies" mode
To me, there seems to be a fundamental disagreement among irons on what role shops should play in their gamemode. One side says that shops aren't players so anything goes, the other side imagines ironman as a more completely self-built do-everything-from-scratch gamemode, and therefore everything possible should be acquired using your own skills. Nobody likes shopscape, but the Scar Essence mine seems to lean on the former while giving a light glaze of Runecraft to cover it up. Ultimately, you're still dumping money on an NPC to achieve your end goal with relatively little skilling involved. As someone who wants skilling to have a strong presence in the game through both gameplay and rewards, I'm not in love with that solution as it deals out tons of skilling rewards while heavily cutting out the gameplay - though I certainly don't think it's terrible and would much rather have it than rune packs. But, if anything, I'd take a step back and ask, "Why do we need so many blood runes?" While I've personally appreciated more things needing them to help make Runecraft profitable as a main, the pendulum's swung too far for irons where they spend excessive amounts of time Runecrafting to play other major parts of the game. So it bears asking: why do the scythe, sanguinesti, and soul bearer need blood runes to begin with instead of some alternative resource? The same goes for other items charged with runes. I think I'd much rather add a new item - let's call it Blood Extract - to existing gameplay or to a new pvm/skilling activity rather than force Runecraft to change so drastically.
Private-servery is such a lazy reason to say no to something. What does that even mean? Its something you personally think would be on a private server? You could argue that a ton of updates fall under this. You could find a way to make sepulchre seem private-servery. The open field of imps he talks about could definitely be something that could fall under this vague description.
I totally agree with your sailing take. I did something similair. Im excited for it, but I voted no because Im just not sold we really need a new skill, especially when you look at the current state of skilling.
the whole concept of sailing is cool. idk why they didnt just add sailing without making it a whole skill, make it an add on to construction just do a revamp to all the existing ports and docks it does not need a whole new skill
Osrs has changed to much idk how to feel. Just fucking click on tree and get logs. Its fun. You can sit there have a drink after a long day, watch some videos, and click trees. I get people are popping salts irl while doing toa but idk how people got into osrs if they inherently find click tree and chill unfun. Tho jagex cant even get forestry through without dropping half of it so I doubt sailing will go well
@@vibes24osrsthis has been my take when i heard king condor talk about it. Without the skill the community would think of it as a minigame and would hate vote no, and in order to dedicate this much company time it has to be big, like a skill, for the company to green light it. But the community would for sure voted no to sailing as a game mechanic
Honestly this is one of the coolest updates I’ve seen suggested for irons in a long time. I think it should come along side a slight rebalance to normal runecrafting, but I see how that would impact mains and rune prices without really helping the rc/shops problem.
I reckon getting if you're gonna be getting 250k/hour, that should just come from shops, which already "feels" unnatural. If they want us to simply "dump" millions of gp into an npc, it might as well be a shop. Comparing it to sandstone would be fine, if this was ending up at like 15-20k/hour for your time. You still spend a good 15-20hours mining sand for 99 crafting. This would be 1-2hours and you're set for a year of runes? Not to mention the next issue of irons suddenly crying for more alchables to sustain their runes, instead of *actually runecrafting*. Expand on the current blood essence, make it less shit/tedious to use and stack, perhaps give it a greater effect, and give it greater availability. Maybe even make it untradeable initially, and have it downgrade to it's current form to make it tradeable. Let it work for all rune types and have it be an actual way for irons to gather runes.
200-250k bloods is definitely too many for one hour, but the gp cost is also very high. With how much gp it costs most irons would not be able to even do an entire hour of this. I don’t have a good take on fixing these issues as I’m not a game designer, but I do think the method itself is interesting and requires some rebalancing of costs and runes per hour if Jagex actually care about the runecraft skill being trained.
I think you miss the point. It cost a ton of money and just cuts down the time of hopping worlds. If you want free blood runes just run to an alter with essences and get your 10k plus an hour with no cost
In an ideal world ironmen craft their own runes and are self sufficient, but like you said everyone just wants to PVM. I see where you're coming from Jagex should make runecraft actually worth it, but how realistic do you think it is for Jagex to revamp runecraft entirely to make it one of the most hated to most liked skills before they can band-aid fix runes with rune packs or this scar update? The scar update is better because you still need 77/90 runecraft for bloods and souls. You need 93 agility for max efficient blood runecraft. I do agree the scar should not be producing 250k blood runes per hour, it definitely needs to be toned down a lot! However, there should be at least some way to pump gold into runes without being as frustrating as shops cape (even with packs). 77-99 blood runecraft is straight up just not enough blood runes to attain all end game pvm drops. If we were to remove shops as they are now, it would be silly to think every ironman has to start their journey by getting 200m runecraft through blood runes and soul runes.
The only reason i don’t like this update is I think it’s too expensive. We have to go grind out these tainted essence, then convert them for GP equivalent to DOUBLE the price a normie pays then go RC the runes ourselves? Basically shopscape but tedious shit to do instead of world hopping. I’d rather have your idea where we can RC 40k bloods/deaths/souls per hr and not have to spend my GP on them. Now I’m just gonna go camp vorkath and hydra forever even tho I don’t need anything else from there I guess..? Not a fan
I think the scar has potential, but I'm definitely on the same line of thinking as you Saeder. The numbers need to be right. I love the idea of sinking endgame GP (which is otherwise pretty useless) into drastically accelerating runecrafting. However, when I think "drastically", I think more like double or triple the efficiency of the current best RC method rather than completely blow it out of the water insomuch that you're basically negating the runecrafting aspect of it time-wise. Hope that makes sense.
At the end of the day this is only an issue because of the scythe and sang. We’ve added blood essence and then the rc ribes and true blood alter as ways to try and address this. Why not just change the fucking charge cost instead of continuing to come up with these weird ways to get around it. It just seems weird to add all this into the game to just get more blood runes for irons for two weapons
Just commenting to provide clarity regarding some confusion. Not trying to change your mind, because I think your issue lies mainly with the concept of purchasing resources for gp and the method surrounding it is kind of irrelevant. The sandstone comparison and the numbers being much lower. The rate at which you can get buckets of sand from charter ships and hopping worlds is much lower than the amount of bloods you can get by hopping worlds and buying out shops. The sandstone comparison is only to provide a successful example of removing shopscape...not as an apples to apples comparison. If you could get 100k buckets of sand an hour from shop scape, then the sandstone grinder would have delivered 150k buckets of sand an hour. 250k/runes per hour. It costs an amount that very very few Irons will ever be able to maintain more than once every couple of months. I guess the core idea being turning the cash stack of a maxed iron (already small population) with BIS supply chugging gear (even smaller) into something that they actually use. The way they currently use their cash from PvM is just shops and world hopping. Cosmic Underworld and skilling. The cosmic underworld is a perfect idea for my iron and where it's at. Needs some bloods 40k/hr at no cost sounds great. If my iron consumed bloods at the rate my main does, 40k/hr is not enough. I'd pump the cash into shopscape and get 100k/hr. The two ideas are not in competition, but rather servicing different tiers of account. Cosmic Underworld servicing a mid-late game iron vs. scar essence which is for the very niche truly endgame iron. I would agree with you about this update if Jagex could get RC to actually match world hopping. At the moment, it's not even close though, RC is a joke compared to a cashstack+shiftclick+world hopping. I personally very much agree that base RC rates should be changed (chaos capped at 2, lol), but I think the OSRS community would be very against changing something so old.
Respectfully, I don't think that 'shopscape' is as much of a problem as it was when the term was coined. I don't enjoy buying bloods, but there's also a lot of nostalgia surrounding shops in runescape for me and I wouldn't want all shops to be dead content. Some people don't enjoy skilling or care about levelling skills, but as ironmen, giving skills an obvious use like this is nice even if it is interacted with infrequently. Ultimately, i'm not against this update but I feel that rune packs are the best solution: minimum dev time, fair cost for use (maintaining use for gp on irons) and quick. But interesting to hear other opinions, everyone plays the game differently :)
i can do an hour of making potions and get 50 hours of pvm out of them. i can do similar things with fishing and cooking. runes are the outlier and im happy theyre offering a way to have this. i dont think jagex should force ironmen to do skilling as its never ever been make everything yourself, its no obtaining items from other players. ironmen never wanted to make bowls with soft clay or vials with blowing glass, we need things to do with our gp and this is an innefficent method gp wise but quick time wise. rune packs would solve the problem still but at least this lets you craft large amounts of any kind of rune which is great instead of having every rune have a pack in the shop. i am all for other solutions but i think this is a good way to get resources for otherwise useless gp
This is a pretty good argument. However I want a reason to make bowls with soft clay and I'm not even an ironman. Completely overshadowed piece of content.
This is better than blood rune packs. And here's why 1. You still have to have the rc level to craft the runes 2. You'll need to be far enough into the game to have started Desert Treasure 3. The gameplay loop is better
Ya i tried to give honest feedback before gotr came out. To help runecrafting for ironmen and mains. I was called a gate keeper. At this point i honestly dont care what happens to skilling. I'll just keep pet hunting
This is such a hard to balance prospect. They want to release a method that can compete with shopscape, while at the same time not crashing blood runes to the ground in the main economy. Basically there needs to be some serious cost behind crafting the runes, I liked their compromise but perhaps they could tone it just a bit down.
Blood runes are already currently at their floor because you can always sell them to Ali Morisane for 200gp each. There's only 2 ways I can think of to make the value of bloods go up again: 1) generate demand for bloods via content that utilizes scythe & sang. 2) reduce supply by banning all these bots that are giga-dumping bloods into the economy. That goes for all rune types really.
idk he keeps going on about the 1 hour for 250k blood runes. idk about you but i just flat out dont have 100m to spend on an hour of runecrafting on my iron. yeah i get the rate for crafting the runes is fast, but on an iron you gotta add in the time to actually get the gp to pay for it too. sae keeps saying its private server-ish, but i think going to a shop and just right click buy 250k seems more private server-ish than having a system where i have to go actually make the runes.
Props for just tackling the comments. Has to be said. Your idea with the 30k blood runes an hour will be pointless once people realise they can just buy 100k blood runes an hour. Its just simply slower, and when people want blood runes to continue pvming they will opt for the faster method anyway. This is the exact reason why this new mine is 250k bloods an hour. "Just give packs" seems ok for us players, but its an awfull discusion gameplay wise, which get explained quite well in the blog.
you keep going on the 250k bloods an hour. But they literally say in the post that they have to compete with the 100k/hr that shops provide. No1 is gonna pay multiple times the GP needed to buy the runes in shops for a marginally better rate of obtaining blood runes. I don't see how you can't grasp this.
@@Saederthat’s a pretty toxic response in a debate lol. The number is based on a theoretical shopscape meta. They’re not trying to put in runes faster, they’re trying to keep it the same but more engaging to get.
@@Saeder It has to be significantly better than the 100k/hr shops provide or its dead content on day 1 as it costs more gp/rune than shops. I think 200-250k seems reasonable. So idk why you are bringing up 5m an hour lol. However its all a thematical approach/solution to blood rune packs, when you are treating it as a new skilling method. You only realising its for iron only and would be retarded for mains to do HALFWAY last video says enough about you. Bad takes man.
This video definitely fixed my issues with your first vid. Think your thoughts are bit more collected here. I play a main so not super invested in this topic.
This is just thematic shopscape, same price but no hopping and actually have to go to an altar to get runes, yes you can make 250k blood runes/hour but at the cost of 100m gp or you can make 10k blood runes/hour for free with normal runecrafting
I don’t get how you can spend so much time complaining about how much skilling sucks and it’s boring and yet when Jagex makes forestry as an attempt to make skilling more interactive and fun you just hate it???
18:53 this is the meaning of the whole video, it's an absurd amount of money he finally realizes here. I will literally never spend this kind of money on my iron if I can avoid it :) any other kind of update to add runes to runecrafting will be gotr x100 effect on the game economy; they can't buff runecrafting any more without breaking the game in half Saeder, you gotta look at the specific cost they're proposing and what it's compared to. There's not really any better solution than something like this, really is like a sand grinder tbh, and I highly doubt they would try to make any other ironman resource buyable, but rune shops have been in the game since the move from RS classic. If the rate seems too private server, they can scale down the essence and gp a bit. However, the issue is it's dead content on arrival if so because shops will still be faster and cheaper. If they add this, and I am in favor because it's so absurdly expensive, they can simultaneously nerf shops and slightly turn down the raw gp+reward to make it feel just a little more like runecrafting and less like making a trip to the ge. I'm not a huge fan of bandaids for broken content like this, but I'm not gonna lie I LOVED mining sandstone and grinding my own crafting xp to 99, so if they get the rate RIGHT on this, it has the potential to be really sweet and not absolutely ruin an entire chunk of the game. Ty for reading and love this level of interaction with the community ❤ 💕
Hey, I've got to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about this new Abyssal Extractor concept. While I appreciate the effort to provide an alternative way of obtaining runes and addressing the shopscape issue, I can't help but feel that it might deviate from the core gameplay principles. The introduction of the Abyssal Extractor seems like it could potentially undermine the significance of certain in-game activities, like mining for essence and using the Runecrafting skill. Rune packs or not, part of the charm of Old School RuneScape lies in the grind and effort required to achieve your goals. This new method might make it too easy for players to amass vast quantities of runes without fully engaging with the game's mechanics. Moreover, the idea of paying a hefty sum for the Extracts and then potentially incurring significant losses when selling the crafted runes doesn't sit well with me. It seems like a forced economy balancing mechanism that could negatively impact non-Iron players as well. While it's essential for the game to evolve and adapt, it's equally crucial to ensure that any changes align with the fundamental values of the game and the experiences that players have come to love. I'm curious to see how the community responds to this proposal and whether there will be some adjustments to make it feel more in line with the Old School RuneScape ethos.
I get what youre trying to saying about how this doesnt encourage training the skill, but it does encourage it more than shopscape. You want it to be more incorporated within runecrafting as a whole. You'd likely only do this thing for 1-2 hours then have your blood runes and - your gp. If they add an alternative actual runecrafting method, it would just crash the price of blood runes. Which isnt really something they are aiming to do, but they do sell for a set amount at a store so im not sure how it would impact the price at all. The point of this update is to cater to the people who dont want to train the skill, but have mills of gp they want to spend on blood runes. Theyre going to buy the blood runes in the shops regardless of this update. You would rather have more packs in the stores which would basically just be the same exact thing as this update, but they actually get to do something instead of buying from a shop, but you also dislike shopscape. I understand where you are coming from, but this new thing, will only cater to people who want to buy mass amounts of runes, it really wouldnt cater to anyone who wants to just runecraft to stack up a bunch of runes. Mains will never do this. Irons will only do this to save time from shopscape, and theyll likely only do it when they have already done rc training, because of how much gold it costs to make the runes.
The majority of people just want to click boss. If you can play 8+ hours a day, and spend that long runecrafting bloods / souls to sustain items irons have acquired (scythe, shadow etc) then that’s fantastic for ypu, but the average person who maybe plus 10-15 hours a week and just wants to raid with mates should have faster ways of using these weapons that use a lot of inputs. The alternative is making them corruptible so you grind them then, then can enjoy.
I'm all for skilling being buffed and having a high intensity skilling method for blood runes, but as long as shops exist they will always be the fastest way to aquire runes for Ironmen which is why I'm not opposed to the scar essence. You keep mentioning this 250k per hour figure but let's not forget that 250k will cost 100m gp and that is not sustainable for very long. What difference does it make if it takes 1 hour at the scar or 3 to 4 hours hopping worlds for runes, either way the 100m gp is going toward runes.
Shop scape should be intended at low or med game ironman. Should be viewed as a faster than current method of gathering resources, but at the cost of valuable xp.
This is coming from someone who thought of this idea presented but is now thinking a little differently because I think this approach is decent but too focused on GP and not enough on Runecrafting since you will craft a few hours a year to fund yourself and mains wont do it. Approach #1: Let us get these scarred things and extract them for free.. but have them take longer/less effective. That way we can gather them slowly through this skilling activity, then go use em.. like daeyalt but for increased runes. Approach #2: Have us gather them through something more active, like a fun skilling activity that involves either searching, dodging, etc....and lets say that you can gather 1 at a time, and they can't be put into the bank.. Gather one, go craft..This would make a loop involving wearing your runecrafting outfit.. getting the extract, getting your ess, crafting runes, back to get your next extract. You could make it so that you can stack/bank them and gather more that one at a time, but I think it would be cool to close the loop right away but either way it would introduce a fun skilling activity... and If done right, you could really increase the amount you can craft but it wont mess up the economy and we will actually craft runes more than a few hours a year for upkeep..
I don't understand how this doesn't encourage training skills. I can buy infinite soul rune packs at level 1 RC, but to use this method I have to train to level 90 to quickly obtain soul runes... it may not contribute much incentive to train to 99, but it at least involves the skill more than shopscape
I could find myself agreeing with you if there was no way for ironmen to buy blood runes before, but as the meta up until now for ironman bloods has been buying them from shops, i don't see how this is really an ironman integrity issue, it's turning buying blood runes, something that has existed for the entirety of ironman, into an activity and expediting it, because nobody likes buying from shops.
I don't think "it's so private server-ey" is ever a good take, people say that about literally any kind of update they don't like (to me being able to buy stuff rapidly from shops as the main way to obtain it is "private server-ey") - if you're good with blood packs being added as a qol update to fix that specific issue I see no reason why you shouldn't be in favour of a method actually integrated into the game.
That being said, I heavily agree that skilling has been horrifically overlooked and needs way more updates on the level of sepulchre, and I don't know if this is the most interesting or engaging way to get blood runes en masse.
Yeah, agreed. As much as I enjoy Sae Bae's content, it feels like his go-to response any time he doesn't like something is to call it either private server-y or toontown, and every time it makes me roll my eyes a little because of how much of an empty criticism it is, even if I completely agree with his take
Nothing is ever going to supplant Nightmare Zone as the most private-servery shit in the game and it's been in for 10 years lol
@@Nuvizzle too true. Of all things that don't warrant the "private server-y" criticism, NMZ is definitely not one of them lmao
Here's how the pure essence thing works, as I understand it. You mine tainted essence, then process it in an extractor. From there, you can either claim the product as pure essence (for no gp cost), OR you can claim the product as the new resource.
Shopscape is literally more against the ironman spirit than this place. At least here you'll still be runecrafting yourself. When you talked with Connor, he mentioned something like catching newts instead of eyes of newt packs. This seems like a similar solution. I know that we rather want to nerf a lot of things instantly, but the community will not be on board with that, so we have to take babysteps.
Also I like that your Cosmic Underworld has more engaging gameplay, but I really don't like that you can pick your RC altar, it kind of makes it pointless to use any other altar.
But he wants shopscape nerfed as well. Neither should exist rather than one or the other. I don’t think you understand his point or atleast didn’t present it correct in your comment
I was personally for things like Forestry, including the teas which was really disappointed they scrapped, but I am NOT a fan of the Scar RC they are proposing. I have a 2,100 total HCIM and would say bloods are already as common as water runes. We have 50% higher yield rc outfit, 50% higher yield blood essence, 10% higher yield diary with an additional 10% increased essence rate, and it is afk. I don't buy any runes from shops as an iron and have never ran out of any rune yet. Bloods have been perpetually in white stack to the point I cast blood barrage just for the fun of it as my water stack is lower than the bloods for barrage/bursting.
I personally hate instances in the game for irons that trade GP to exp. It goes so much against the iron experience and essentially creates a grand exchange for irons. I nearly have 99 smithing banked from actually partaking in mining activities, yet the average iron these days will just GP stack the ore shop of all of its gold ore until they have 99 banked. A lot of people mention this new update is basically just like sandstone to sand, but that too was awful as it killed off nearly every other crafting method for irons. I still do all the old methods like jewelry, battlestaves, d'hide, but now some people do the entire 99 grind off of nothing but GP to sand.
My biggest issue with new updates like this is they add it without updating any of the old methods, essentially eclipsing ever past method for whatever the new shiny feature is. Forestry did this well as you could do the new shiny method, but they also updated all the old woodcutting methods making it so that almost nothing was left behind the new skilling curve. Things like tick teaks and afk redwoods are still viable despite forestry existing, but things like Scar RC just kills old methods without updating them at all.
I like this option over Rune Packs purely because it involves more skilling reqs and perks. Like sure, you wouldn't need to be Runecrafting for hours with 61 runes made per essence, but having stuff like the Colossal Pouch would still reduce the number of trips you'd need to make and your other buffs like the Outfit would still help you craft additional runes. If you just add Blood Rune packs, then what is the point of getting 77 RC or RC buffs on an Iron? You'd just shop and hop, but more quickly with Rune Packs. I do agree that it would be nicer to have a more engaging method than the bulk of the activity come from paying GP, but if this method was more engaging and made half the runes per hour (50K), it still could incentivize irons to buy from shops if they have GP and just wanted the runes quickly.
I will vote yes on this option and I will also vote yes to the cool interactive rune crafting method designed & proposed in the future
spot on. Sae keeps ignoring people telling him it involves RC purely because he wants it to be 30 hours of RC to match the amount of runes, but then ignores that DOESNT COMPETE with shops, which is ALL this update is tryign to do. You can still RC blood runes regularly for 25 hours to get the 250k blood runes, and not spend ANY gp on it. But thats just training RC. Its not faster or better than shop buying and re-earning GP, this method IS.
Why is gold some taboo resource that ironmen are not allowed to use? It's a resource like any other and should have some uses. I earned my gp on an iron, which is way harder to do than on a main, and I want to have productive uses for it.
It does have uses. You need it to repair armour, buy things for your POH, pay for services like sandstone grinder, decanting potions, and making planks. This is just buying runes. It just feels better in a game mode where you are supposed to get your own resources and gear for you to use the runecraft skill to get runes, rather than just buying it
always wondered this as well. i don't play iron but i know i'd like to use the cash i'd accumulated over the years.
@@Physicismits very apparent youve never been an endgame iron nor taken any time to look into what its like if you really think any of those things put anything other than a negligible dent in an endgame iron cashstack.
@@protobones i was just offering suggestions for uses for money that make sense in ironman mode off the top of my head. Bank slots is another good money sink which also fits within the ironman play style
@@Physicism this isn't just buying runes though, its as similar to sandstone grinding as you can get.
@5:30 you think this update is more “private servery” than shopscape is? Have you played a private server before because they don’t make good creative updates, you buy everything from shops and go right to pvm/pvp
I'd much rather have the new system over rune packs, yes.
9:10 no lol. I think you once were rambling about how tedious it was to catch implings and you wanted jagex to add some area where it was just you and implings, no obstacles or anything and you’d be able to “go ham” lol
I think you are forgetting about the costs to do this activity. Its a little misleading to quote runes per hour produced without the costs that goes into it. The ones you noted in the video are not sustainable for 99.99% of ironmen, and crafting runes is still more sustainable and profitable.
bro, you live in 2007? ironmans get millions of gp eveyrwhere nowdays and we dont ahve any use for it, sure you can buy 99 flecthing and stuff haha, but thats not importen, even then, we still have millions of gold
@@gardmyhr6121 and those irons with millions of gp deep in endgame are spending that gp on runes in shops, which is the same thing
The fact that people are already playing shopmanscape means they'll do this instead, further disincentivizing actually crafting runes. They should work on better real rc methods and nerf shops/drops instead
Honestly watching this video gives a better insight where your mental is at, and honestly I agree with making skilling fun. If skilling was on par or more fun than pvm that would be the single biggest change for this game and I truly wish that was the case. However I still do wish there was even a bandaid fix for now because right now it's awful hopping a few hundred worlds to fill up a weapon one time. Maybe 250k blood runes per hour is too much but even still I don't think we should remove shopscape's 100k an hour without first addressing actually training the skill being the primary method.
Think the core of what you're saying is that it's not good game design for irons to be able to buy significant amounts of runes with gp and this update basically legitimizes that ingame. This update just allows irons to cosplay that they're skilling while basically just buying bloods from the ge with extra steps. Agree that main source of runes should be rcing but that's a little far gone with boss drops, etc. But I don't think people are understanding that point.
Your point: spirit of ironman mode is to get resources yourself through skilling methods, and have to train all skills and spend a good amount of time doing these skills in order to upkeep costs of weapons, food, etc. And this update is just shopscape disguised as a skilling update (potentially meaning they think this issue is addressed and there won't be a good way to make a lot of runes from skilling from an extended period of time. Runes in the meantime will probably be dropped en masse by the next released boss).
Most pvm ironmen: I want to go back into chambers/toa/whatever and want the runes to do it by using the drops/alchables that my favorite boss shat out but I think buying from shops doesn't feel good so I'd rather jagex put a reskin on it so I can feel like I'm rcing even though I'm basically just exchanging gp for runes
At least this is what I think the point you're trying to make is, but I think you aren't making your point very clearly if it is..
I’m an end game iron with all bis gear but I only get a few hours to play a day most days . So I’m stuck in between a decision to either spend my few hours crafting runes for shadow/sang/ scy or just scrape bottoms and always have no charges for all my best items that I spent some good time trying to acquire . I’d much rather be able to spend my gp that I don’t use on the iron and acquire huge amount that will last me a month or two of using
That's it. Phosani's Awakened Halloween GotR for solo-only mode with huge piles of bonus rewards.
and clue scrolls
how many times is bro gonna read a comment, say “i don’t know what this means” and then repeat his awful take that hinges on his convenient misunderstanding? you call the feature a “private server thingy” without any substantiation and your responses to criticisms are always off because your reading comprehension is apparently so low that youtube comments are beyond you.
While the quantity of runes per hour sounds insane, it is still a cost of 400gp per rune which is the same cost as the shops, I think they should up the cost to 30k per essence making it 500gp/blood rune though if they do not give us packs since those would have inflating prices as stock goes down.
I also would love to see Jagex refine skilling and make it fun and engaging.
I feel like the fixation on 250k runes per hour is weird. Can't you buy like 1m runes per hour for things that have packs, like fire runes? Isn't this technically less egregious than packs in terms of runes per hour? I can agree that it's kind of a cheap-feeling way to connect it to runecrafting, it doesn't really feel like a runecrafting update. But technically speaking, it achieves the same thing as adding packs (because we're still paying 400 per blood rune) but creates at least a bit of work/resistance that should be less tedious than buying and opening rune packs/hopping worlds.
I actually agree with you that I'd technically prefer a way to actually runecraft what I need, and I'm personally not opposed to 40k bloods per hour. The problem there is the economy for mains, there would have to be some way to solve that, and I'm not smart enough to figure that one out.
This is probably the "safest" option in terms of 1. "solving" shopscape and 2. not touching economy for mains. It's not a solution I'm super crazy about but I'm not opposed to it either, and I think some of the "game-ruining" statements are a little excessive.
as a person agreeing with sae bae you make a good point. but we dont need a safe option. runepacks would solve this with no impact whatsoever in a matter of seconds with 0 dev time.
big fan
Okay this would achieve the same thing as packs but, as you said in the video, it would make the concept of straight up buying a huge number of bloods seem more legitimate by making it into actual content. It would be way easier down the line to say "we've got a solution, we're getting rid of those blood rune packs now", than it will be to delete this. I think the team feels they need to fix this problem quickly but don't have enough time to do what they'd rather do, which is fix it organically. I'd rather just wait.
rune packs are easier to remove from the game than this minigame
This method wouldn't exclude the niche of the Cosmic Underworld or anything else in that space (engaging + rewarding content, with limited input cost). In fact, they could compliment each other well, since the cost associated is very steep at scale - so there'd be a balance of doing this other content for less resources per hour, but you can do it for longer.
Might be worth considering your somewhat unique position as a very end-game ironman also, which gets the privilege of avoiding some nagging parts of this method (getting base stats, getting the gp). Let's take an example:
Given the 400gp/rune rate for bloods, 100k blood runes would run 40m gp, which is about as much as you get from getting a bowfa on rate at CG. This player would spend half an hour to get their 100k blood runes, but had to do 60-70hrs of "prep" at CG to afford that. Assuming they had spent that 60-70hrs at true bloods, they'd have over triple the blood runes than through this method. This is also ignoring that they probably need that gp for other things like maxing, kingdom, etc, so it might be more worth to spend on those things before building a blood runes stack.
Basically, this method gives an expensive, low XP method for blood runes. The cost prevents this from being a camped method, and still leaves room for a lower cost, but more engaging method to get more blood runes. The take of "just give blood rune packs in stead" seems a bit out of touch (respectfully) to non-maxed/non-end-game players valuation of gp and time investment to get the skills to effectively use this method.
Shopscape isn't great, but this method at least would use skill progression and resource management to make it more thoughtful than "gp=blood rune" from the minute you get off tutorial island.
I hope you don't take the backlash personally, but maybe use it as a reminder of how important clearly communicating ideas is (especially when they might seem "controversial"). A lot of "obvious" sentiments often have to be spelled out (which also makes it easier for oneself to realise what might not be so obvious after all)
He can't understand the ideas himself. In this video he can't even understand a super basic comparison with the GP and Imp joke.
16:30 I would genuinely go the other way, I would rather have this update and remove all rune packs in the game than add rune packs for every rune. I genuinely think the analogy of the sandstone grinder is very good even if you still can't quite see it.
I agree that skilling could be a lot more engaging, and that this is still a more bandaid fix when compared to a full rebalance of runecrafting, but I also think that this is a very good solution when operating within the boundaries of how runecrafting works today. It doesn't break the economy, it integrates with the lore, it speeds up a tedious and unengaging activity (hopping worlds), and it also helps with issues for other runes such as combo runes which I would love more of for casting veng and humidify in cox.
While I understand that you want these skills looked at before sailing, I personally believe that sailing is an amazing opportunity to start a skill from scratch with these ideas in mind, and take what they learn from that to rework old skills. Runecrafting is Old School, this update still feels Old School to me.
rune packs are a better bandaid fix as requires 0 dev time
@@lullfig1875 I hear you but in the blog post for this they specifically say "Even though this approach is a tad more involved than making something like rune packs, it's still very light on time requirements from developers and artists, so won't adversely impact any of the other content we've got planned in the coming weeks"
‘Idk it’s just so private servery idk what to say’ is as good of an explanation that you’re willing to give? That is a terribly weak argument, what’s wrong with a slightly more engaging form of shop-scape????
I think the bigger issue is skilling. It’s not engaging, rewarding or new. They only add mini games at this point and no actual new items in skills. I love all sorts of the game but it’s just ehp scape and pvm for money. It’s stale and they need to fill out the content for 99s. Rather than barb fish at 50/99, granite, wintertod, gold smithing, teaks, dragon bones. What happened to unlocking better content at higher levels.
And then there are other skills that are just absolutely busted. Like fishing and woodcutting. If OSRS was designed as a new game in 2024, it would be really stupid to predict that the skilling meta for certain skills would be to farm the LOWER LEVEL resources. It makes ZERO sense that the best xp in the game for woodcutting is to cut a tree that only requires 40 woodcutting and the best for fishing is to go catch fish that only require like 50-60 fishing.
@@chessmagician2024 I guess it's because back in '04 cutting magics and fishing sharks was actually a top tier AFK money maker, so you'd exchange higher xp rates for higher profits. Very much not the case any more obviously
would you be more open to this idea if it matched rates of buying blood runes? instead of the 200k runes per hour it sits around 100k?
I like the idea of a mining sandstone style gameplay loop for gathering some kind of rc catalyst. I would also really like for it to scale heavily with mining to determine how many catalyst you get per hour. I also want rc level to scale the effectiveness of the amount of runes you get instead of gp, but i know mains might not like it.
250k runes per hour is insane, but its largely gated by gp. I'm not sure how many people will actually reach those rates.
What do you think about a buff to blood essence or such essence in general. As instead of the new extract you would get a corresponding essence. Then buff said essence so you get a x3 multiplicator instead of the current x1.5 one. Maybe even combine multiplicatively with set instead of additively. Means we would also use up the essence quicker and get runes quick that way.
So if blood packs came into the game how many runes could you buy per hour? if your main hurdle is the amount this could allow you to get per hour. Are you proposing blood packs would net you less than 250k runes per hour world hopping non stop?
Coming from someone who doesn't play an ironman, but does a lot of my skilling DIY on a very limited pure build, I think I've got a similar view towards ironman mode that you do of it being meant as the harder difficulty mode. Being able to buy mass quantities of items at a shop, yet at a higher price, doesn't reflect the game mode of being a self sufficient player and instead makes them worse mains. Most ironmen rune issues seem to be related to charged weapons, why not embrace the issues and make a pvm/runecrafting update? Some type of abyssal related boss that you can fight and harvest the essence dropped (with runecrafting) to get a small amount of runes or a decent amount of charges to the weapon you want to charge? On weapons with charges compatible with the update if you fill with max charges can take an abyssal form to have a reason for non-irons to grind for it? It gives a new form of PVM to the people who want PVM, it gives unique collectors new uniques to collect, it gives ironmen an easy solution to item charges. As long as the boss feels fun and not a pain to grind, people can get the type of enjoyment of the game they are seeking while filling up their charges and training runecrafting in the process.
12:01 missed opportunity to mention ToonTown
You've convinced me, originally I was excited for the update, now I'm not so excited because your ideas make sense. But ill still vote yes because they aren't going get rid of shop scape anytime soon, if ever. Would be good if they polled suggesting the two options before they started development.
1. Remove shopscape and overhaul runecrafting
2. Add this mini game as suggested
25:19 that commenter was cringeworthy, but god damn you got him good trying to guess his favorite failed updates. You definitely came off as a normal person that could participate in a dialogue with his subscribers throughout this whole video. Bro did 0% discussing with other people and 100% reactionary scoffing at comments that hurt his feelings.
Lmao 😂 skipped to that point idk if I can finish this
Yeah, that one hurt, tbh. I didn’t need to react that way. I just get annoyed when people say I have bad takes but don’t actually mention what they are.
@@Saedersame reason everyone gets butthurt when you say something is bad for the game and give 0 reasoning
Rune Packs:
Buying Blood Runes for example: Max Number stated by Jagex in a perfect World is arround 100k / Hour.
100k divided by 250 Blood Runes per World = 400 World Hops & Buys / Hour.
Elemental Rune Packs have 80 in Stock, lets take this Number:
80 * 100 * 400 = 3'200'000 Runes / Hour with Packs (explenation below)
(80 Packs per World * 100 Runes per Pack * 400 World Hops per Hour) = 3,2M Runes per Hour with Packs.
With Rune Packs and in a perfect world with no competition you would be able to buy 12.8 times the ammount of what Jages proposed with their update (3'200'000 divided by 250k), so the Scar is a pretty good Solution!
Quick insight from someone who has played rs3, every shop in rs3 is player specific and all stock returns in around 24 hours, so the meta has just evolved shop scape into daily shop run scape. No better.
I would love to hear ideas on how to make skilling engaging without it being either make it Sepulchre or make it Wintertodt
An example he gave in the past was making mining like warden skulls. Imagine you do some afk/cooldown activity to build up to being able to do a 1t pattern and get a bunch of ore. There's definitely lots of skilling improvements that could be made in this game by embracing the rhythm of the tick system.
That sounds dope but I can’t imagine doing it for over an hour? Might be just me but even Sepulchre I can’t do for longer than 2 hours
I do love the idea of making skilling effective bossing training though
The problem I think is players don't know about the engaging methods. Mermaids domain, herbiboar, artifacts, aerial fishing, drift net, and blast mining are all engaging with decent xp while also not being over the top like sepulchre. But if you ask the average player what's their thoughts on any of those methods they probably won't know what you're talking about.
@@chriscohen9559 yeah I think the average player looks at the fastest xp on the wiki and goes with that without ever looking into other methods. I’m nearing max and have tried to try out every method for every skill along the way. That said, I think there are still a few where no method is enjoyable aka mining
"We reckon players will be able to obtain roughly 25,000 Extracts per hour (assuming they have the cash to afford them all). With these 25,000 Extracts, we anticipate that speedy players using the so-called 'True' Blood Altar could expect to craft somewhere in the region of 200,000 to 250,000 Blood runes per hour, depending on other factors like the use of Giant vs. Colossal pouches or how quickly they're able to complete runs."
I think one way to make this idea better is to just slow down the rate that you get extracts. If crafting the runes needs to be the fast part, fine whatever. But maybe if we can only obtain 5k extracts per hour or something then it would feel better?
It does not matter, you cant sell it for profit as the cost of the extracts would be too much for ge selling
I gotta say you're spot on here, and the general hate shows the state of this game and irons overall. This update is not healthy for Ironman. I've said for a while that the "Essence" of Ironman mode is gone, and people just want fast resources so they can do High Level Tier PVM with Scythe/BLood fury without putting in the time. The idea and concept of Ironman was to grind and earn your rewards. This proposed update while still being a gold sink for Irons, is the literal opposite of what Ironman mode should be. The conversation should be how to make blood runecrafting or runecrafting in general provide more resources without it destroying the game/economy for all players.
I understand the criticism towards this being a band-aid fix and a bit private servery, but i cannot imagine the playerbase and the devs being keen on another major runecrafting skilling method after already getting gotr. I surely hope that the next Skilling update will satisfy the itch you're needing to scratch.
I 100% agree that shopscape should just be removed, and buying things with GP is against the spirit of ironman. I think you did a really poor job of explaining your take in the first video, glad you were able to quickly post this update.
If it was between this scar thing and buying runepacks, I don't really see why they wouldn't do this scar thing. At least then people are incentivized to get 77 rc for bloods, get higher levels for different things like wraths etc. Even if using the scar thing isn't directly making you train those skills, you still need them to rc where as you can have 1 rc and buy bloods from the shop. Would love to hear your opinion on this ^ @saeder
you already can buy blood runes at level 3 from a shop so why not just make it faster with blood runepacks
@@lullfig1875 Because the whole idea is that shopscape is not in the true spirit of ironman. The whole idea of ironman is that you create resources for yourself utilizing the skills and monster drops in the game and you don't pay GP for things.
Shops have been in ironman since the beginning but the argument is that they're against the original spirit of the game mode and should be removed.
@@andrewadams530' spirit of the game' touch grass dude
@@chungusultimate First of all, you misquoted me. So if you're going to take the effort of putting ' ' around my words you might as well quote me properly. Secondly if you're playing ironman then you should probably touch grass also because it's an autistic game mode made for autists. Finally, I love the fact that you literally don't even have an argument for why I'm wrong, because I'm not, you simply opt for an ad hom attack. Priceless.
Personally I'd rather they completely overhaul runecrafting multipliers. For example, at 99 all elemental runes have a 20x multiplier, 2x on souls (with true altar), 2x on wrath, 4x on bloods, 8x on deaths and chaos. 3x on astral, law, nature, combination runes, and 4x on cosmics. Obviously scaling up from original levels. Then add in a high intensity method for essence but in the reverse of daeylt essence instead of giving bonus xp it gives a multiplier for runes. Having 2 options a high intensity option similarly to 1.5t daeylt vs just afk. I find it pretty awful that you need to runecraft at 99 with dairy cape for an hour to have enough bloods/deaths for 2400 casts of barrage. Rs3 ironman is actually pretty good on skilling and skilling in rs3 is WAY better than on osrs. Currently fletching t95 arrows is the only main gripe for upkeep costs as it's like 1 to 1. As most skilling methods are between 1 hour of skilling to 6-10 hours of pvm.
“This just sounds like blood rune packs with extra steps…”
exactly.. because ur spending gp to buy runes
A big part of this that you and a lot of other people seem to be glossing over is that the scar mine is locked behind DT2, rune packs would not be. Locking this behind a grandmaster quest with high quest point, skill, and pvm ability requirements keeps it out of reach for earlygame irons to not ruin their experience, but serve it to lategame irons that require these runes in bulk. For that reason alone I'd much rather have the tainted essence grinder than catalytic rune packs.
I think people struggle with the difference between buying resources on an ironman (shopscape and scar essence) and paying gp to use a facility that improves the gameplay loop (sand grinder, demon butler). I for one, agree that shopscape just completely goes against everything ironman is meant to be and feel like we wouldn't be in this situation if shops were all across every world to irons from the start of the game mode.
I love the idea of "catalytic essence" because it means getting a drop from a boss > using said drop through a skill (runecrafting) > to produce a product to then use to keep bossing. This is at its core, what ironman should be. If we can just buy the resources we need to keep pvming, then we may as well be able to buy our food, our potions, our chins. Ironmen have to play all aspects of the game, and for some reason we just disregard skilling now because of how spoilt we are with drops and shops, and its really quite sad.
I really wish the devs werent scared to rebalance the game mode and push through some integrity changes, because lets be honest, none of this is ever passing as poll, shame.
I would much rather have this than blood rune packs. Screw hopping even three times to buy runes. I'm much more concerned about the ability to get pure essence from this making daeyalt less worth. If we can get 10k pure ess per hour semi-afk (potentially much more if 1.5t is possible) there will be no reason to ever mine daeyalt.
bud. I hate buying fire runes for my trident of the seas. I hate spending time hopping for 3 trident charges. I would love an alternative
If the two are functionally equivalent in your view, you would rather have to compete and hop for packs instead of produce your own through the skill at a premium? Bad take imo. At least with their proposal accounts would need 77 rc to "buy" the blood rune "packs".
Dude, it genuinely would take 20 minutes to buy 1 million blood runes if catalytic rune packs came out and had a stock of 250. Competition would literally not be a problem after the first week because you’re done stocking up in minutes lmao
@@Saeder I don't understand how you don't see that as more than 4x more private servery than the proposed update. The rates given in the update are absurdly high, but they match potential shop rates even without packs, and you still have to RC to get the runes. Can you please explain in more detail why you think a little bit of runecrafting is worse than zero runecrafting?
Just curious how you feel about this update now that’s it’s been out for 9 months. Having unlimited runes on Ironman didn’t seem to affect anything in my opinion. Do you still feel like skilling is weaker than pvm?
Let's say this update is coming into the game, how would you improve it?
Love the idea of bringing old content up to speed instead of this p garbage they suggest
100%
I’m all for this coming into the game
A lot of people are disagreeing with you, but I actually find myself agreeing. The Ironman game mode from the start has always had a sort of DIY spirit (Do-It-Yourself, which was a playstyle back in RS2). I've heard a lot of Irons complain about the process of gathering supplies for PvM, whether it be farming runs for herbs, Runecrafting for certain runes, Smithing for Cannonballs, etc. But to me, that's the whole point of Ironman game mode. If you don't want to skill, I'm not sure Ironman mode was ever intended for you. I definitely share your fear that eventually all skilling will become irrelevant, and it will be a matter of paying GP or doing certain bosses to gather supplies, rather than the skills that were fundamentally created to provide those supplies (i.e., bossing instead of doing herb farming runs, buying runes instead of runecrafting).
I agree that this update will probably pass the poll, simply because people hate shop-scape, but this isn't a situation where we only have 2 choices. There are many updates to skilling and runecrafting specifically that could address this problem.
TLDR: The whole point of ironman game mode is that we DON'T trade GP for supplies. An update specifically catered for that purpose is not appealing to me in the slightest.
amen. this needs to be pinned comment
I get what you’re saying about how this doesn’t make you train your skills. Yeah it would take a lot of gp to sustain but the bottom line is that you would only need to train for a few hours to sustain hundreds of hours of bloods. Would you be ok with this if it was more like 30-50k per hour?
Yes. Anything lower than 250k I’d be more okay with. 30k would be optimal imo
I can appreciate that he is a far-past-maxed ironman with infinite gold and billions in bank value, but it makes me laugh him saying DT2 was a fantastic update and he loves it yet only has a cumulative 200 kill count on all bosses.
No, I don't agree rune packs are better. In what way is it 'private server stuff' if anything rune packs are the private server option. This at least ties it back to the skill in some way.
I agree that I'd prefer to see skilling methods improved, but barring that this is a much better option than rune packs or increased stock.
I tried to watch the live on this but the play back stutters. I have this issue with other live play backs as well. Makes it unwatchable
Hey Sae, just want to say that I appreciate your passion and discussion around the game. As a late game iron myself, I really appreciate how Jagex is trying to make a method that is competitive with shop hopping but doing it in a way that is integrated (at least a little bit) with runecrafting, and a more fitting way of getting an insane amount of runes that ties into the world/lore around them.
However, I agree with you that 250k/hr sounds absolutely bonkers when it's put on paper, but other than that number - I guess what about it makes it feel so private server-y to you compared to blood rune packs in a shop? Is it just how convoluted the process is? I think your focus has been on the concept of ironmen having to resort to shops = bad, and Jagex's focus is that alongside 'how can we provide a solution that isn't tied to the negative stigma/gameplay loop of buying massive stocks from shops', and this was their proposed solution - to try to tie it the game world and runecrafting skill, so it's at least a thematically appropriate way to get so many of them. I thought it was at least a step in the right direction, personally.
I do think it's a bit wild that people compare this to sandstone mining, because while the process is similar, you mine all the sand yourself, and even then, it caps out around 6-7k buckets/hr at maximum efficiency. This, on the other hand, is dozens of hours runecrafting bypassed with GP - granted, it's a lot of GP. Is that appropriate, considering we can just hop shops and buy 100k+ blood runes an hour already? I honestly don't know.
With all of that said, I agree with the skilling. It's a shame that it's overall pretty neglected and there could definitely be more elegant solutions to make skills more engaging/rewarding with how the game is today in 2023. At the very least, I think having people like you around in the community that are clearly passionate and have a lot of care for the game is great to see and a great thing for the game/community. Despite sometimes having minority opinions, it's good to share your thoughts on things and help people understand your point of view, and vice versa.
In this video, comments from people that realized lategame ironman mode is shit and dont want to de-iron
🤣
I think we'll just agree to disagree here, but even as a group iron, shopscape blows. I want to see skilling be updated to be actually engaging and fun as well, but I think this update is MUCH better than blood rune packs. Now the numbers you can get within a specific timeframe could definitely be re-balanced, but if we put that aside - I truly don't see how you would prefer a world with rune packs over an update that fits into the design of the game and call the one that fits the design "private server-y". If the numbers were in line with what you would get world hopping in the same timeframe, this update is clearly better than rune packs.
I do think youre looking at this as a proposed solution to another problem that the community hasn't fully grapsed yet, being skilling is boring AF. This update is truly a bandaid to addressing this problem irons face with obtaining high-value runes in bulk, simple as. However, a LOT more design and thought has to go into updates for skills than an update like this takes. The skill has to provide xp/hr and be rewarding, but not too much of either or it disrupts skilling metas and disrupts the game economy. My go to example of this is looking at GOTR release and the price of nature runes. Nature's have cratered as the supply of natures has gone through the roof in part due to GOTR.
Ending my essay here, but I will say I think your opinions are right but just mis-aimed a little. I think this update is great because it addresses a supply issue without impacting the actual market supply of runes/GP. It addresses another component of shopscape which we agree sucks, in a way that utilizes the skill. We also agree that skilling right now is not rewarding enough, but I am saying that the design of a skilling update is a lot higher dev effort and that the things the roadmap Jagex has given us for their focuses are in a good direction, and i hope that theres skilling updates on the horizon just past the roadmap.
Your intentions are so far on the "skilling good, shopscape bad" spectrum it's kind of awesome. But I think there are some bonuses for this solution over pure shopscape:
- You still need the RC level, gear, etc.. so it gives irons an incentive to train the skill
- sorry if you've addressed this I only listened to 11 minutes
Sae Bae, I think I get it. It's the rate at which you're getting the blood runes for you. I was hoping at one point you would say "this is just shopscape with extra steps". That's what I think your point is. I would say that's correct too. You're paying GP, but then you don't get the runes. Then you have to actually runecraft for a couple of hours. Which isn't a big deal, runecraft should be part of the equation in the ideal scenario, but like you said, runecraft isn't an engaging skill, and the rate at which you're doing it basically makes it shopscape, so why even add it? If the solution is "dump runes into the game", then just give me blood packs.
Not only that, in the blog post it says "if we added rune packs, you would be able to get runes in an ideal scenario at a rate of about 100k per hour". WHY NOT USE THAT RATE? WHY 2.5x the "ideal" rate at which ironmen can acquire the runes? I feel like if they had led with 100k/hr for the same GP, it would be a much more reasonable pitch. Hopefully as this goes farther in development they realize that the problem is that this is just shopscape with extra steps.
i dont think any iron has a problem with needing to upkeep their runes, the current problem is that the meta way to do that atm is hopping and shopping which is boring , lazy and just not fun, blood packs are a bandaid fix that still make it shopscape but atleast ur done with shopscape alot faster. this new proposed method is essentially blood rune packs but u never need to hop, and it incorporates a little bit of skilling aswell, seems like just rune packs but better no?
This update would also put a hard cap on the price of runes for mains.
Yes they're lower than the proposed costs, but this ensures they will never go above that.
My main question when it comes to being anti shopscape; at some point gp should be usable. On an iron you finish a raid, get nice alcheables, alch them, and if shopscape is eliminated you have a worthless pile of nothing. If you eliminate shops, what good is gp? It's ironman mode, not "no currencies" mode
To me, there seems to be a fundamental disagreement among irons on what role shops should play in their gamemode. One side says that shops aren't players so anything goes, the other side imagines ironman as a more completely self-built do-everything-from-scratch gamemode, and therefore everything possible should be acquired using your own skills. Nobody likes shopscape, but the Scar Essence mine seems to lean on the former while giving a light glaze of Runecraft to cover it up. Ultimately, you're still dumping money on an NPC to achieve your end goal with relatively little skilling involved.
As someone who wants skilling to have a strong presence in the game through both gameplay and rewards, I'm not in love with that solution as it deals out tons of skilling rewards while heavily cutting out the gameplay - though I certainly don't think it's terrible and would much rather have it than rune packs.
But, if anything, I'd take a step back and ask, "Why do we need so many blood runes?" While I've personally appreciated more things needing them to help make Runecraft profitable as a main, the pendulum's swung too far for irons where they spend excessive amounts of time Runecrafting to play other major parts of the game. So it bears asking: why do the scythe, sanguinesti, and soul bearer need blood runes to begin with instead of some alternative resource? The same goes for other items charged with runes. I think I'd much rather add a new item - let's call it Blood Extract - to existing gameplay or to a new pvm/skilling activity rather than force Runecraft to change so drastically.
Private-servery is such a lazy reason to say no to something. What does that even mean? Its something you personally think would be on a private server? You could argue that a ton of updates fall under this. You could find a way to make sepulchre seem private-servery. The open field of imps he talks about could definitely be something that could fall under this vague description.
I totally agree with your sailing take. I did something similair. Im excited for it, but I voted no because Im just not sold we really need a new skill, especially when you look at the current state of skilling.
the whole concept of sailing is cool. idk why they didnt just add sailing without making it a whole skill, make it an add on to construction just do a revamp to all the existing ports and docks it does not need a whole new skill
Osrs has changed to much idk how to feel. Just fucking click on tree and get logs. Its fun. You can sit there have a drink after a long day, watch some videos, and click trees. I get people are popping salts irl while doing toa but idk how people got into osrs if they inherently find click tree and chill unfun. Tho jagex cant even get forestry through without dropping half of it so I doubt sailing will go well
@@vibes24osrsthis has been my take when i heard king condor talk about it. Without the skill the community would think of it as a minigame and would hate vote no, and in order to dedicate this much company time it has to be big, like a skill, for the company to green light it. But the community would for sure voted no to sailing as a game mechanic
Honestly this is one of the coolest updates I’ve seen suggested for irons in a long time. I think it should come along side a slight rebalance to normal runecrafting, but I see how that would impact mains and rune prices without really helping the rc/shops problem.
Dont worry rune prices are already at the floor. Might as well fuck it up more honestly who cares. Gotr and the outfit already did enough damages
I reckon getting if you're gonna be getting 250k/hour, that should just come from shops, which already "feels" unnatural. If they want us to simply "dump" millions of gp into an npc, it might as well be a shop.
Comparing it to sandstone would be fine, if this was ending up at like 15-20k/hour for your time. You still spend a good 15-20hours mining sand for 99 crafting. This would be 1-2hours and you're set for a year of runes? Not to mention the next issue of irons suddenly crying for more alchables to sustain their runes, instead of *actually runecrafting*.
Expand on the current blood essence, make it less shit/tedious to use and stack, perhaps give it a greater effect, and give it greater availability. Maybe even make it untradeable initially, and have it downgrade to it's current form to make it tradeable. Let it work for all rune types and have it be an actual way for irons to gather runes.
Great insights! Thanks for your thoughts :D
200-250k bloods is definitely too many for one hour, but the gp cost is also very high. With how much gp it costs most irons would not be able to even do an entire hour of this. I don’t have a good take on fixing these issues as I’m not a game designer, but I do think the method itself is interesting and requires some rebalancing of costs and runes per hour if Jagex actually care about the runecraft skill being trained.
gp is 0 time bro
this months Gnome monkey
I think you miss the point. It cost a ton of money and just cuts down the time of hopping worlds. If you want free blood runes just run to an alter with essences and get your 10k plus an hour with no cost
I do like the cosmetic under world and have a great idea there. But why not both?
In an ideal world ironmen craft their own runes and are self sufficient, but like you said everyone just wants to PVM. I see where you're coming from Jagex should make runecraft actually worth it, but how realistic do you think it is for Jagex to revamp runecraft entirely to make it one of the most hated to most liked skills before they can band-aid fix runes with rune packs or this scar update?
The scar update is better because you still need 77/90 runecraft for bloods and souls. You need 93 agility for max efficient blood runecraft. I do agree the scar should not be producing 250k blood runes per hour, it definitely needs to be toned down a lot! However, there should be at least some way to pump gold into runes without being as frustrating as shops cape (even with packs).
77-99 blood runecraft is straight up just not enough blood runes to attain all end game pvm drops. If we were to remove shops as they are now, it would be silly to think every ironman has to start their journey by getting 200m runecraft through blood runes and soul runes.
Dude sae bae's reading comprehension skills are absolutely appauling. I would bet any amount of money he scored below 50th percentile on ACTs / SATs
who is Paul?
The only reason i don’t like this update is I think it’s too expensive.
We have to go grind out these tainted essence, then convert them for GP equivalent to DOUBLE the price a normie pays then go RC the runes ourselves? Basically shopscape but tedious shit to do instead of world hopping.
I’d rather have your idea where we can RC 40k bloods/deaths/souls per hr and not have to spend my GP on them.
Now I’m just gonna go camp vorkath and hydra forever even tho I don’t need anything else from there I guess..? Not a fan
I think shopscape is way more private server then this idea.
For a huge majority skilling has never and will never be fun and that's fine. The action doesn't have to be rewarding if the outcome is.
I think the scar has potential, but I'm definitely on the same line of thinking as you Saeder. The numbers need to be right. I love the idea of sinking endgame GP (which is otherwise pretty useless) into drastically accelerating runecrafting. However, when I think "drastically", I think more like double or triple the efficiency of the current best RC method rather than completely blow it out of the water insomuch that you're basically negating the runecrafting aspect of it time-wise. Hope that makes sense.
Agreed.
At the end of the day this is only an issue because of the scythe and sang. We’ve added blood essence and then the rc ribes and true blood alter as ways to try and address this. Why not just change the fucking charge cost instead of continuing to come up with these weird ways to get around it. It just seems weird to add all this into the game to just get more blood runes for irons for two weapons
Just commenting to provide clarity regarding some confusion. Not trying to change your mind, because I think your issue lies mainly with the concept of purchasing resources for gp and the method surrounding it is kind of irrelevant.
The sandstone comparison and the numbers being much lower. The rate at which you can get buckets of sand from charter ships and hopping worlds is much lower than the amount of bloods you can get by hopping worlds and buying out shops. The sandstone comparison is only to provide a successful example of removing shopscape...not as an apples to apples comparison. If you could get 100k buckets of sand an hour from shop scape, then the sandstone grinder would have delivered 150k buckets of sand an hour.
250k/runes per hour. It costs an amount that very very few Irons will ever be able to maintain more than once every couple of months. I guess the core idea being turning the cash stack of a maxed iron (already small population) with BIS supply chugging gear (even smaller) into something that they actually use. The way they currently use their cash from PvM is just shops and world hopping.
Cosmic Underworld and skilling. The cosmic underworld is a perfect idea for my iron and where it's at. Needs some bloods 40k/hr at no cost sounds great. If my iron consumed bloods at the rate my main does, 40k/hr is not enough. I'd pump the cash into shopscape and get 100k/hr. The two ideas are not in competition, but rather servicing different tiers of account. Cosmic Underworld servicing a mid-late game iron vs. scar essence which is for the very niche truly endgame iron.
I would agree with you about this update if Jagex could get RC to actually match world hopping. At the moment, it's not even close though, RC is a joke compared to a cashstack+shiftclick+world hopping. I personally very much agree that base RC rates should be changed (chaos capped at 2, lol), but I think the OSRS community would be very against changing something so old.
I like your suggestion around catalytic runes. Much of pvm drops should be reworked to enhance skilling as opposed to providing finished products.
Respectfully, I don't think that 'shopscape' is as much of a problem as it was when the term was coined. I don't enjoy buying bloods, but there's also a lot of nostalgia surrounding shops in runescape for me and I wouldn't want all shops to be dead content. Some people don't enjoy skilling or care about levelling skills, but as ironmen, giving skills an obvious use like this is nice even if it is interacted with infrequently. Ultimately, i'm not against this update but I feel that rune packs are the best solution: minimum dev time, fair cost for use (maintaining use for gp on irons) and quick. But interesting to hear other opinions, everyone plays the game differently :)
100%. if u wanna "bandaid fix" just add blood rune packs instead of over complicating the process.
i can do an hour of making potions and get 50 hours of pvm out of them. i can do similar things with fishing and cooking. runes are the outlier and im happy theyre offering a way to have this. i dont think jagex should force ironmen to do skilling as its never ever been make everything yourself, its no obtaining items from other players. ironmen never wanted to make bowls with soft clay or vials with blowing glass, we need things to do with our gp and this is an innefficent method gp wise but quick time wise. rune packs would solve the problem still but at least this lets you craft large amounts of any kind of rune which is great instead of having every rune have a pack in the shop. i am all for other solutions but i think this is a good way to get resources for otherwise useless gp
This is a pretty good argument.
However I want a reason to make bowls with soft clay and I'm not even an ironman. Completely overshadowed piece of content.
This is better than blood rune packs. And here's why
1. You still have to have the rc level to craft the runes
2. You'll need to be far enough into the game to have started Desert Treasure
3. The gameplay loop is better
Ya i tried to give honest feedback before gotr came out. To help runecrafting for ironmen and mains. I was called a gate keeper.
At this point i honestly dont care what happens to skilling. I'll just keep pet hunting
This is such a hard to balance prospect. They want to release a method that can compete with shopscape, while at the same time not crashing blood runes to the ground in the main economy. Basically there needs to be some serious cost behind crafting the runes, I liked their compromise but perhaps they could tone it just a bit down.
Blood runes are already currently at their floor because you can always sell them to Ali Morisane for 200gp each. There's only 2 ways I can think of to make the value of bloods go up again: 1) generate demand for bloods via content that utilizes scythe & sang. 2) reduce supply by banning all these bots that are giga-dumping bloods into the economy. That goes for all rune types really.
idk he keeps going on about the 1 hour for 250k blood runes. idk about you but i just flat out dont have 100m to spend on an hour of runecrafting on my iron.
yeah i get the rate for crafting the runes is fast, but on an iron you gotta add in the time to actually get the gp to pay for it too.
sae keeps saying its private server-ish, but i think going to a shop and just right click buy 250k seems more private server-ish than having a system where i have to go actually make the runes.
Props for just tackling the comments. Has to be said.
Your idea with the 30k blood runes an hour will be pointless once people realise they can just buy 100k blood runes an hour. Its just simply slower, and when people want blood runes to continue pvming they will opt for the faster method anyway. This is the exact reason why this new mine is 250k bloods an hour.
"Just give packs" seems ok for us players, but its an awfull discusion gameplay wise, which get explained quite well in the blog.
you keep going on the 250k bloods an hour. But they literally say in the post that they have to compete with the 100k/hr that shops provide. No1 is gonna pay multiple times the GP needed to buy the runes in shops for a marginally better rate of obtaining blood runes. I don't see how you can't grasp this.
So why not just make it 5 million blood runes per hour if you have the money? That's fine to you, right?
@@Saederthat’s a pretty toxic response in a debate lol. The number is based on a theoretical shopscape meta. They’re not trying to put in runes faster, they’re trying to keep it the same but more engaging to get.
@@Saeder It has to be significantly better than the 100k/hr shops provide or its dead content on day 1 as it costs more gp/rune than shops. I think 200-250k seems reasonable. So idk why you are bringing up 5m an hour lol. However its all a thematical approach/solution to blood rune packs, when you are treating it as a new skilling method. You only realising its for iron only and would be retarded for mains to do HALFWAY last video says enough about you. Bad takes man.
Sorry for coming off harsh. Been reading comments all morning lmao.
blood rune packs is like 5m blood runes per hour so might aswell spend less time playing the game doing that@@L0rdp4nc4k3
This video definitely fixed my issues with your first vid. Think your thoughts are bit more collected here. I play a main so not super invested in this topic.
This is just thematic shopscape, same price but no hopping and actually have to go to an altar to get runes, yes you can make 250k blood runes/hour but at the cost of 100m gp or you can make 10k blood runes/hour for free with normal runecrafting
I don’t get how you can spend so much time complaining about how much skilling sucks and it’s boring and yet when Jagex makes forestry as an attempt to make skilling more interactive and fun you just hate it???
18:53 this is the meaning of the whole video, it's an absurd amount of money he finally realizes here. I will literally never spend this kind of money on my iron if I can avoid it :) any other kind of update to add runes to runecrafting will be gotr x100 effect on the game economy; they can't buff runecrafting any more without breaking the game in half Saeder, you gotta look at the specific cost they're proposing and what it's compared to. There's not really any better solution than something like this, really is like a sand grinder tbh, and I highly doubt they would try to make any other ironman resource buyable, but rune shops have been in the game since the move from RS classic.
If the rate seems too private server, they can scale down the essence and gp a bit. However, the issue is it's dead content on arrival if so because shops will still be faster and cheaper. If they add this, and I am in favor because it's so absurdly expensive, they can simultaneously nerf shops and slightly turn down the raw gp+reward to make it feel just a little more like runecrafting and less like making a trip to the ge. I'm not a huge fan of bandaids for broken content like this, but I'm not gonna lie I LOVED mining sandstone and grinding my own crafting xp to 99, so if they get the rate RIGHT on this, it has the potential to be really sweet and not absolutely ruin an entire chunk of the game.
Ty for reading and love this level of interaction with the community ❤ 💕
Hey, I've got to admit that I'm a bit skeptical about this new Abyssal Extractor concept. While I appreciate the effort to provide an alternative way of obtaining runes and addressing the shopscape issue, I can't help but feel that it might deviate from the core gameplay principles.
The introduction of the Abyssal Extractor seems like it could potentially undermine the significance of certain in-game activities, like mining for essence and using the Runecrafting skill. Rune packs or not, part of the charm of Old School RuneScape lies in the grind and effort required to achieve your goals. This new method might make it too easy for players to amass vast quantities of runes without fully engaging with the game's mechanics.
Moreover, the idea of paying a hefty sum for the Extracts and then potentially incurring significant losses when selling the crafted runes doesn't sit well with me. It seems like a forced economy balancing mechanism that could negatively impact non-Iron players as well.
While it's essential for the game to evolve and adapt, it's equally crucial to ensure that any changes align with the fundamental values of the game and the experiences that players have come to love. I'm curious to see how the community responds to this proposal and whether there will be some adjustments to make it feel more in line with the Old School RuneScape ethos.
I get what youre trying to saying about how this doesnt encourage training the skill, but it does encourage it more than shopscape. You want it to be more incorporated within runecrafting as a whole. You'd likely only do this thing for 1-2 hours then have your blood runes and - your gp. If they add an alternative actual runecrafting method, it would just crash the price of blood runes. Which isnt really something they are aiming to do, but they do sell for a set amount at a store so im not sure how it would impact the price at all. The point of this update is to cater to the people who dont want to train the skill, but have mills of gp they want to spend on blood runes. Theyre going to buy the blood runes in the shops regardless of this update. You would rather have more packs in the stores which would basically just be the same exact thing as this update, but they actually get to do something instead of buying from a shop, but you also dislike shopscape.
I understand where you are coming from, but this new thing, will only cater to people who want to buy mass amounts of runes, it really wouldnt cater to anyone who wants to just runecraft to stack up a bunch of runes. Mains will never do this. Irons will only do this to save time from shopscape, and theyll likely only do it when they have already done rc training, because of how much gold it costs to make the runes.
The majority of people just want to click boss. If you can play 8+ hours a day, and spend that long runecrafting bloods / souls to sustain items irons have acquired (scythe, shadow etc) then that’s fantastic for ypu, but the average person who maybe plus 10-15 hours a week and just wants to raid with mates should have faster ways of using these weapons that use a lot of inputs. The alternative is making them corruptible so you grind them then, then can enjoy.
I'm all for skilling being buffed and having a high intensity skilling method for blood runes, but as long as shops exist they will always be the fastest way to aquire runes for Ironmen which is why I'm not opposed to the scar essence.
You keep mentioning this 250k per hour figure but let's not forget that 250k will cost 100m gp and that is not sustainable for very long. What difference does it make if it takes 1 hour at the scar or 3 to 4 hours hopping worlds for runes, either way the 100m gp is going toward runes.
he proposed nerfing shops to make it more balanced so that you dont feel forced to buy from shops
Aren't they talking about letting players corrupt scythe so it's not a constant drain of input cost?
Shop scape should be intended at low or med game ironman.
Should be viewed as a faster than current method of gathering resources, but at the cost of valuable xp.
This is coming from someone who thought of this idea presented but is now thinking a little differently because I think this approach is decent but too focused on GP and not enough on Runecrafting since you will craft a few hours a year to fund yourself and mains wont do it. Approach #1: Let us get these scarred things and extract them for free.. but have them take longer/less effective. That way we can gather them slowly through this skilling activity, then go use em.. like daeyalt but for increased runes. Approach #2: Have us gather them through something more active, like a fun skilling activity that involves either searching, dodging, etc....and lets say that you can gather 1 at a time, and they can't be put into the bank.. Gather one, go craft..This would make a loop involving wearing your runecrafting outfit.. getting the extract, getting your ess, crafting runes, back to get your next extract. You could make it so that you can stack/bank them and gather more that one at a time, but I think it would be cool to close the loop right away but either way it would introduce a fun skilling activity... and If done right, you could really increase the amount you can craft but it wont mess up the economy and we will actually craft runes more than a few hours a year for upkeep..
I don't understand how this doesn't encourage training skills. I can buy infinite soul rune packs at level 1 RC, but to use this method I have to train to level 90 to quickly obtain soul runes... it may not contribute much incentive to train to 99, but it at least involves the skill more than shopscape
Fair play
I could find myself agreeing with you if there was no way for ironmen to buy blood runes before, but as the meta up until now for ironman bloods has been buying them from shops, i don't see how this is really an ironman integrity issue, it's turning buying blood runes, something that has existed for the entirety of ironman, into an activity and expediting it, because nobody likes buying from shops.