Thank you Craft Computing for this wonderful video. From what I can tell, there seems to be a considerable difference in temperatures between different cards with this cooler, with some people running theirs at 85-90C under gaming loads. It's hard to define what exactly causes this, perhaps it's just silicon quality. I hope you still enjoy your build, and I will continue to do my very best to further improve this product.
I don't think it's a thermal transfer problem. It's either air volume or pressure when the case is closed. I'm going to try drilling a couple more holes around the fan and see if that frees up the airflow.
@@CraftComputing did you try perhaps using some foam tape between case and GPU to add some resistance to the air paths that intake hot air from the adjacent internals? Not sure if the air within that case is hot or not so it may not be relevant.
There's a printable case fan shroud on printables that will let you install a 140mm on the bottom of the case (Minisforum MS-01 - 140mm Fan Cover), and it works quite well for keeping the CPU and NVME drives cool. Should do a decent job for the GPU too
@@thenanook - I'm only seeing ~60-63C at 80% load on my proxmox setup - several VM's & LXCs... maybe a higher CFM fan? Mine moves ~57CFM @ 2K RPNM (full speed), dead quiet
I love the performance density you got here :) 1. PTM7950 should help a noticeable amount, the faster you can get heat into that copper block, the more efficient the heat transfer to air will be. 2. Consider removing the low profile bracket to allow more airflow out of the case. You could expand your 3D printed fan shroud to wrap around the card a bit to help hold the card in place.
Part of the issue could be the copper heatsink itself. Its great at transferring heat away from the heat source but its not super great at dissipating it compared to the likes of aluminium. Thats why a lot of heatsinks are made out of part copper and part aluminium or have vapour chambers to assist with cooling. The small out of air that the tiny fan moves isnt much help either.
@@Rose.Of.Hizaki The reasons to use aluminium instead of copper have to be down to cost and weight savings. In the past, there are full copper heatsinks like Thermalright TRUE Copper for LGA775 that weighs 1.9kg and today we also get AXP-100 full copper for sale.
I have a RTX 2000E ADA in my MS-01 which doesn't need any modification. Its performance should be similar to a RTX 4050 at 50W TDP. Not as fast as a RTX 4000 ADA, but I'm mainly using it to run LLMs which is good enough for half the cost.
The problem you're running into is pressure. The case runs at positive pressure, and doesn't have enough exhaust flow. You should fully expose the fan of the GPU cooler (dremel, drill press, etc, pick your poison) Then, find where the hot exhaust is currently exiting the box (hold your hand around the vents, it'll be obvious) and remove any obstructions from the heat sources to the outside of the case via that exhaust location. Make sure you check the whole thing, as it may be leaking hot air from more than one location. It's also very likely that if you're running in that orientation, the hot air is pooling at the top of the case and heating the card, which means you likely need to cut the case directly above the card, for the length of the card. If you want this to look OEM, you'll have to do one of two things. One, cut all the mesh out of the case and replace it with permissive fabric/plastic mesh. The mesh you choose should be freer flowing (lower volume of material) than the current hole pattern (easy to calculate if you can measure it, subtract hole from square that fits around the holes, measure the gap between holes to find your square size). That lets you put vents in anywhere. Get black mesh material, rattle can the case back to black, install mesh (hot glue is fine) and you're done. Second method is match the hole size with a drill bit, determine the hole spacing, use a mill to drill additional holes, many many additional holes. You can use a drill press and a center punch, it's drudgery, mill is the correct choice. Mount it to a piece of hardwood with hot glue so you're not clamping the metal directly, put on a techno playlist, get it done. When it is done, rattle can black and you're done. There is no way without a case mod that this works. It's a pipe dream. You need more holes. You may also be able to get extra spicy while you're in there and add an exhaust fan somewhere in the case, that will also help if you can find a good location for it, ideally on top. Very tight quarters there, good luck.
What a great idea. The MS01 is impressive for its formfactor. Maybe in a few years i will re-purpose mine which is currently a NFS Server Server with 4 M.2 SSD (to hold all my vm disks for my promox cluster) into a very portable pc for lan partys.
Ordered my cooler a few weeks ago and anxiously waiting for it to arrive. Glad to see some real world usage of the setup I'm hoping to do some local LLM on.
Did you try different type of thermal paste? I heard the Arctic Silver isn’t that good in comparison to newer pastes. You can check Jayztwocents video he tried this exact paste, I remember it scored terribly.
BLOWER COOLERS have very serious limitations. For one thing, the FURTHER you have to push the air the LESS efficient it gets (deltaT, and physical air resistance). And your fan usually ends up quite small limiting the air it can push withouth being too noisy. That's why in laptops you have HEATPIPES pushing air through HEATSINKS that are put as close to the exhaust as possible... but being TOO CLOSE to the exhaust limits the surface area of the heatsink so you're back to a fundamental inability to remove heat energy efficiently. I suspect the ideal setup would be to have heatpipes-> heatsink-> 2x larger fans blow THROUGH the heatsink then right out of the case but I don't know what's available for modding cards like this... something comparable to a Noctua NH-L12s but with two fans in a rectangular shape. (reversing with fans on TOP might be more optimal, but it depends on the rest of the case setup, CPU cooler, exhaust etc. Fans pulling air in might cool the GPU better but then you dump more heat into the rest of the case. Everything needs to be planned carefully.)
@CraftComputing I am not one of those "fight me in the comments" guys for this. Your TIM selection and application was excellent. AS5 is still a top tier TIM and you put it on as near to perfect as I can tell.
Bigger fan? Remove the support bracket for a less restrictive flow out the back? Better thermal paste (maybe even liquid metal)? Maybe even modify the case cover with some holes that line up with the other ones. A possible thing you might also do is use the case lid like a heat spreader...
I'm a mechanical engineer and I know quite a bit about thermal stuff. First, did you try to evaluate the performance of the new cooler using an open test bench at full load? The idea is get a base line for the best performance vs temps with no air restrictions. Second, compare the results you got from the open test bench with the actual build when the case is closed. Third, the main idea to enhance thermal performance is based on two parts: better inlet air, and no circulated hot (exhaust) air. For the inlet, I suggest making an opening (not just holes) on top of the gpu fan and make sure to use rubber pads to seal the space around the fan inside the case (100% external inlet air). For the exhaust, make sure all the hot air is pushed outside the case (try to close the sides of the gpu or use thermal tapes to seal all the sides of the gpu that may leak hot air inside the case) and rubber pads between the gpu and the case to seal all leaked hot air. I've done something similar to an old pc case and I had to add a fan on top of the gpu to force more fresh air into the case.
You should check out the Lenovo P3 tiny. I run a ADA 4000 SFF with n3rdware cooler and it seems to work much better then what you've reported. I also have it sitting on top of a laptop cooling pad to give it some extra airflow.
Watching people apply Arctic Silver to an exposed die reminds me of putting thermal paste on an Athlon XP and praying that you don't chip the die when you put on a heatsink. Modern heatspreaders feel like cheating in comparison.
You can put some heatpads on the card to contact the case of the MS-01. This should help alot with getting the heat out of the card and transferring it to a bigger metal surface.
dude that mini pc can be a bad ass plex server. If there is a small form factor multi-nvme adapter, you could slap on a bunch of ssd's on it, and run plex/jellyfin , it looks like a great homelab box
Thank you for this video! I was considering buying one of these but couldn't find any performance data. I suspected it wouldn't be adequate and you confirmed it! It's barely adequate with the stock cooler and my 3D rendering.
Well, my approach is making sure fresh air intake (like you did with the shroud). And the second thing is making sure the hot air is exhausted out of the case with additional shrouds. Few days ago I got an Idea for another use for my MS-01 - "steam (always docked) deck" console. It is currently used as a micro server with proxmox that runs OpenWRT + OMV + Arch machine for things like dockers and other controllers like Omada SDN + OpenELEC. Don't know if you remember, but I asked you if you played with iGPU passthrough. Now I'm happy to report that OpenELEC is happily playing back 4K HDR with whatever auodio passthrough via HDMI (or any of the USB-C). Even CEC works great with the help of pulse-eight adapter. That means the PCIe slot is free. So I came across ETA Prime video about single slot, half height 3050 6Gb by Yeston. It looked to me a bit underpowered. But seems like it either it, ada 2000 or wait and seen. Anyway the Idea is to add another VM, pass through some kind of GPU and have some fun with friends and family.
13:58 The AS5 maybe a limiting factor, I'd replace it with either Thermal Grizzly Kryosheet thermal pad or Honeywell PTM7950. As for the shroud, I'd attach a 3D-printed snorkel magnetically (CA glue a flexible neodymium ring into the snorkel bottom) to the side of the case just over the fan in the GPU cooler.
That is awesome, I love how compact this beast of a PC is. I have some ideas to improve thermals non-destructively, in case you haven't lost patience yet and got out the dremel ;) Your fan shroud design could be elongated a bit, so it takes advantage of more of the holes in the factory case lid. @9:48 you can see the shroud only covers about half of the factory holes. You could also try closing the shrouds opening towards the back, to force the fan to suck the air from outside instead of the rear (even though I don't think the air there is far above ambient). Another factor could be radiant heat from the large stainless cover of the cooler. With the lid closed, that heat gets nowhere, relying completely on the air flow. Maybe you can find a way to conduct the heat to the case somehow, but that is difficult with the cases sliding mechanism. As a lot of other commenters said, as much as I love AS5, it might not be up to the task. Maybe a better thermal paste gets you another degree or two.
A couple ideas: 1. Swap out the AS5 for something more modern. TFX or PTM7950 2. Ditch thermal pads on the die side of the PCB for putty (absolutely not K5 pro, you want one of the real thermal puttys that has a clay-like texture) 3. This last one is more of a stretch but you can get 20x10mm fans to get more air movement.
It's ironic you did this video. I have it's sister system, the barebox MS-A1 with the occulink port coming in. I've already got the rest of the pieces. Been considering doing a video on the build of the system. Could be fun. :)
I think liquid metal coould bring the temps down a few degrees in this sort of really high density thermal situation, but if it's cooler limited I might be wrong there and I know that's a bit risky on such an expensive card. This is more modding the actual cooler but you could try soldering some very thin but wide heat pipes to the section of the cooler that touches the die of and use THICC thermal pads to make rest of the gpu make contact with the cooler. Or the same with a single slot gpu vapor chamber if you can find one via aliexpressfu haha. Last weird idea is using front panel to distribute some heat with another THICC thermal pad but yeah man I dunno. I'm sure you'll find something, you got this!
I would consider spliting the case in half with a divider, the cpu is potentially causing the gpu side of the case to heatsoak, also removing the mesh for the gpu fan as that will at least double your airflow with the mesh design that they used on that case panel
An observation i've made with this PC formfactor: If you check out how lenovo designs their GPU cooler, is that they don't exhaust trough the i/o, but have a opening before the i/o in the GPU and case shroud, with a little ramp to guide the air out that way. Would make the heatsink shorter, but also remove a lot of restriction for the air to move more freely. Maybe if the cooler was designed like the new RTX 2000e design, with an open shroud at the end? Or maybe the fan is just not good enough. COmparing it to the 2000e fan it does look... antiquated.
I will buy the one for my 4060 LP when it comes out. It's very cool. And yeah, the LTT mini is fantastic! I bought all three of their screwdrivers and love them.
There seems to be a lot of surface area on the cooler that could contact the sliding case cover via a springing mechanism. If the needed heat dissipation is close enough that might keep it down in the 80s C.
7:41 Maybe close the few mm gap between the the heatsink shroud and the rear I/O panel with kapton tape or something to prevent hot air from recirculating back into the case. You can put thermal pads to sink heat from the metal shroud to the case panel
there's another option if you wanted a single slot low profile card- yeston just released a single slot low profile RTX 3050 recently. retailing at around $200 it's quite a nice middle ground between this and the lower tier a310/rx6400
I haven't had that Old Chico beer, but if you enjoy a lighter wheat bear, I 100% recommend Boulevard Brewing's Wheat beer. They're a good sized brewery in Kansas City that do some good work in the community, and Boulevard Wheat is TASTY. Absolutely delicious, although it is unfiltered, unlike the one you have in the video
Maybe a thermal pad should be added from copper to the outside of the case. Or, holes should be drilled in the outside case panel. It looks like a good graphics mod.
I would try some different thermal pastes. in addition, make some kind of shroud to cover the little gap at the end of the heatsink to make sure all the hot air goes out of the bracket and not inside the case itself. If that doesnt work, it looks like the holes in the case block some of the gpu fan so a little persuasion with a dremel and a new 3d printed intake shroud should help as well
I was looking for the answer to my ms-01 graphics card problem, you gave it to me, thanks. Seems like a better play to run the oculink 4090 if you spend this kind of cash, cool idea though.
I remember cooling an Nvme on the backside of my mobo making it to contact with a waaaay to thick thermal pad , to the motherborad tray and it was steady at 35°. You could make contact the whole card heatsink to the case enclosure and use it a dissipating surface. 😂
Perhaps you could thermal tape a copper shim so that it’s bridged to the case? You could also thermal glue a slim heat pipe to the cpu cooler. Could help 1c XD.
I have no idea if they have a viable retail product yet, but Frore Systems was working on extremely slim, solid-state cooling. Maybe that could be of use.
So it sounds like the biggest problem is airflow. The heatsink (HS) being a chunk of metal is cool and all, but if you sliced more holes in it and made it 3 fans, eschwing the 'blower' style idea. Just throw as much air speed at it and let the case sort out where the air will go...
You COULD always just trying retrofitting the n3rdware cooler with a slightly bigger fan, if the heatsink and the GPU itself, will tolerate it. Given that you are able to run the GPU at full tilt when the case is open, but can't when the case it closed, suggests that the fan struggles to maintain the required volumetric flow rate for effective and efficient heat transfer given the increase in static pressure, when the case is closed. You'll either need to find a better 40 mm x 40 mm fan that is more capable (at overcoming the static pressure), or just getting a slightly bigger fan overall.
I would love to put the 4000 ada in my dell 3060 compact, it could fit even the dual slot cooler, but i feel that the single slot cooler and a 3d printed shroud to pull fresh air from the front of the pc would work nicely
The MS01 runs quite hot even with nothing in the slot - my case gets warm to the touch when it's running non-idle and with a few M.2 drives onboard. The flow through the card area is low so that card is basically having to do double duty in bringing in fresh air and exhausting it without much assist. First thing I would try is to put a low-speed fan blowing INTO the case, making sure to not interfere with the two existing internal fans' flow. This could be done with an external shroud - someone else in comments mentioned some discussion on the forums too, but I haven't looked. I was thinking of putting an HBA card in there to drive some external SAS storage, but I'm wary of the airflow issue there too.
Jumping in before I watch this - I received my 4000SFF slimline cooler a few days ago , but I'm having trouble with the memory junction temp topping out at 102 degrees and throttling when installed in the MS-01. Re-pasted a couple of times without success... so far. [edit] and now I've watched this and had my fears confirmed. Back to the drawing board, monty.
@@ychto This is at full load (Heaven 4.0) - I'm trying worst case scenario first. I even tried removing the side rails to reverse fit the case shell, so the removable panel was on the top; to provide more opportunity for modding a solution or printing a shroud, but the shell would need a fair bit of modding to make it mate correctly with the front and rear panels. I did notice that the heat soak took longer when the MS-01 was mounted vertically.
I wonder if just pointing a desk fan at the case would help, To me it looks like the low profile cooler relies on case airflow to get a bit more cooling,
You can control the GPU fan already in software and he said that was attempted. The problem isn't fan speed it's air pressure and direction. Even 25W TDP cards get hot in the small space. I wish minisforum would have made the chassis true 2U and used the extra headroom to be 1.5 slot + extra header for a fan so we don't need to power added fans over USB 5V.
@@CraftComputing Try without any bracket so it can exhaust as easy as possible, I think it can help something also other people mentioned tht you should try to use PTM7950
It's not a SFF case dude. Look up what the MS-01 is maybe? This being a mod for the MS-01 specifically, if he were to use a whole other computer as you suggest, there would be no point to this whole video, would there? The MS-01 is not SFF in the sense of the standard people call SFF, you cannot case swap it, so replacing the case means replacing the motherboard and power supply, and at that point you'd be better off swapping the rest too, and voilà you have no video of it because no one cares about another build video of a generic SFF gaming PC. Since you'd be stupid to run this graphics card in an SFF build - most SFF cases can take a bigger GPU which would mean you would be stupid to run A4000 Ada gen in it, and therefore you'd be better off with 100% different parts - you'd have a faster cheaper computer with potential for more RAM etc.
A thought about your 3d printed gasket: Seems like it would still pull in hot air due to NOT having a closed backside (unless I'm missing something) Maybe printing a full slanted cylinder to cover the full fan hole might be better?
*Jokingly debates thermal paste application methods* No, but seriously, your method is just as valid as the classic dot that spreads when you mount the cooler. Both work well-it's just that the dot feels more like a straightforward, no-fuss approach, while your method has a bit of an esoteric flair! It's always interesting how vexed some get over thermal paste, it's such an odd thing to be passionate about. For those of us who understand how thermal paste works and its purpose, it's so easy to verify if an application works well or not :D
i wonder if one could design an exhaust fan system for that little case? like something that sat up against the rear or snapped onto the rear with a nice fan.
Minisforum - please make V2 of this product about 1/4" larger in all directions and perhaps source some fans from Noctua and then take my money, well, more of it. But seriously, if it was just a touch bigger it would make a huge difference
can you make a video showcasing ... what you can do with the card and ms-01. Like a top 10 things to do or something. would be interessting to know different usecases for this. I can only think about some AI / maschine learning / transcoding usecases.
YOU NEED PTM7950!!!!!!! Might not seem like it will matter, but it does. I have a nuc x15 ARC gaming laptop and it does the same thing, until I used ptm7950, still runs the fans like crazy but temps lowered just enough to keep it around 86c so it doesn't throttle.
Looks like the fan is 1/3rd occluded by the case. It would be interesting to see if you slid the case partially open (so the fan intake had the full vent) if this would be enough, then I wonder if n3rdware could do a new model moving the fan across....
I would be cool to see rtx 3050, 4060 to become single slot, just for 3 HDMI is all you need in my opinion, and making the fan thinner like the video shown, with the fan at the rear, similar look of the Nvidia gtx 10 series design
Thank you Craft Computing for this wonderful video. From what I can tell, there seems to be a considerable difference in temperatures between different cards with this cooler, with some people running theirs at 85-90C under gaming loads. It's hard to define what exactly causes this, perhaps it's just silicon quality. I hope you still enjoy your build, and I will continue to do my very best to further improve this product.
@@n3rdware thank you for making such an awesome product!
liquid metal it
I don't think it's a thermal transfer problem. It's either air volume or pressure when the case is closed. I'm going to try drilling a couple more holes around the fan and see if that frees up the airflow.
@@CraftComputing Uh i thought **non-destructive** :P
@@CraftComputing did you try perhaps using some foam tape between case and GPU to add some resistance to the air paths that intake hot air from the adjacent internals? Not sure if the air within that case is hot or not so it may not be relevant.
There's a printable case fan shroud on printables that will let you install a 140mm on the bottom of the case (Minisforum MS-01 - 140mm Fan Cover), and it works quite well for keeping the CPU and NVME drives cool. Should do a decent job for the GPU too
Beat me to it. This 👆☝
i have it, and gou still 80-90
@@thenanook - I'm only seeing ~60-63C at 80% load on my proxmox setup - several VM's & LXCs... maybe a higher CFM fan? Mine moves ~57CFM @ 2K RPNM (full speed), dead quiet
While i'm sure that will help, it kinda cuts in to the whole "tiny af" idea and at that point, one might just go with a bigger 3-4 liter PC.
just looked at pics of that and its so ridiculous I love it
I would probably consider 3d printing a cover for the case with extra ventilation holes
I love the performance density you got here :)
1. PTM7950 should help a noticeable amount, the faster you can get heat into that copper block, the more efficient the heat transfer to air will be.
2. Consider removing the low profile bracket to allow more airflow out of the case. You could expand your 3D printed fan shroud to wrap around the card a bit to help hold the card in place.
Part of the issue could be the copper heatsink itself. Its great at transferring heat away from the heat source but its not super great at dissipating it compared to the likes of aluminium. Thats why a lot of heatsinks are made out of part copper and part aluminium or have vapour chambers to assist with cooling. The small out of air that the tiny fan moves isnt much help either.
@@Rose.Of.Hizaki The reasons to use aluminium instead of copper have to be down to cost and weight savings. In the past, there are full copper heatsinks like Thermalright TRUE Copper for LGA775 that weighs 1.9kg and today we also get AXP-100 full copper for sale.
Was thinking ptm7950 as well.
I’m in the same boat. MS-01, RTX 4000 ada SFF and N3rdware cooler. I’m not giving up making this work!
I have a RTX 2000E ADA in my MS-01 which doesn't need any modification. Its performance should be similar to a RTX 4050 at 50W TDP. Not as fast as a RTX 4000 ADA, but I'm mainly using it to run LLMs which is good enough for half the cost.
The problem you're running into is pressure. The case runs at positive pressure, and doesn't have enough exhaust flow.
You should fully expose the fan of the GPU cooler (dremel, drill press, etc, pick your poison)
Then, find where the hot exhaust is currently exiting the box (hold your hand around the vents, it'll be obvious) and remove any obstructions from the heat sources to the outside of the case via that exhaust location. Make sure you check the whole thing, as it may be leaking hot air from more than one location.
It's also very likely that if you're running in that orientation, the hot air is pooling at the top of the case and heating the card, which means you likely need to cut the case directly above the card, for the length of the card.
If you want this to look OEM, you'll have to do one of two things. One, cut all the mesh out of the case and replace it with permissive fabric/plastic mesh. The mesh you choose should be freer flowing (lower volume of material) than the current hole pattern (easy to calculate if you can measure it, subtract hole from square that fits around the holes, measure the gap between holes to find your square size). That lets you put vents in anywhere. Get black mesh material, rattle can the case back to black, install mesh (hot glue is fine) and you're done.
Second method is match the hole size with a drill bit, determine the hole spacing, use a mill to drill additional holes, many many additional holes. You can use a drill press and a center punch, it's drudgery, mill is the correct choice. Mount it to a piece of hardwood with hot glue so you're not clamping the metal directly, put on a techno playlist, get it done. When it is done, rattle can black and you're done.
There is no way without a case mod that this works. It's a pipe dream. You need more holes. You may also be able to get extra spicy while you're in there and add an exhaust fan somewhere in the case, that will also help if you can find a good location for it, ideally on top. Very tight quarters there, good luck.
There is a less destructive option in the Minis forum
I thought you had a straw in your beer at first glance 😂
What a great idea. The MS01 is impressive for its formfactor. Maybe in a few years i will re-purpose mine which is currently a NFS Server Server with 4 M.2 SSD (to hold all my vm disks for my promox cluster) into a very portable pc for lan partys.
I literally just did the same thing to my RTX A2000. Sleek little kit.
Ordered my cooler a few weeks ago and anxiously waiting for it to arrive. Glad to see some real world usage of the setup I'm hoping to do some local LLM on.
Did you try different type of thermal paste? I heard the Arctic Silver isn’t that good in comparison to newer pastes. You can check Jayztwocents video he tried this exact paste, I remember it scored terribly.
Most thermal pastes are within a degree or two. It's not going to change much.
BLOWER COOLERS have very serious limitations.
For one thing, the FURTHER you have to push the air the LESS efficient it gets (deltaT, and physical air resistance). And your fan usually ends up quite small limiting the air it can push withouth being too noisy.
That's why in laptops you have HEATPIPES pushing air through HEATSINKS that are put as close to the exhaust as possible... but being TOO CLOSE to the exhaust limits the surface area of the heatsink so you're back to a fundamental inability to remove heat energy efficiently.
I suspect the ideal setup would be to have heatpipes-> heatsink-> 2x larger fans blow THROUGH the heatsink then right out of the case but I don't know what's available for modding cards like this... something comparable to a Noctua NH-L12s but with two fans in a rectangular shape. (reversing with fans on TOP might be more optimal, but it depends on the rest of the case setup, CPU cooler, exhaust etc. Fans pulling air in might cool the GPU better but then you dump more heat into the rest of the case. Everything needs to be planned carefully.)
@CraftComputing
I am not one of those "fight me in the comments" guys for this. Your TIM selection and application was excellent. AS5 is still a top tier TIM and you put it on as near to perfect as I can tell.
Cool idea. you could mount a large low profile fan as the case side. 3d print a sidecover to acomedate the fan to make it a clean setup.
That was awesome. I have that card as well and looking to put it in the tiniest pc I can. Great inspiration.
Bigger fan? Remove the support bracket for a less restrictive flow out the back? Better thermal paste (maybe even liquid metal)? Maybe even modify the case cover with some holes that line up with the other ones.
A possible thing you might also do is use the case lid like a heat spreader...
I'm a mechanical engineer and I know quite a bit about thermal stuff.
First, did you try to evaluate the performance of the new cooler using an open test bench at full load? The idea is get a base line for the best performance vs temps with no air restrictions.
Second, compare the results you got from the open test bench with the actual build when the case is closed.
Third, the main idea to enhance thermal performance is based on two parts: better inlet air, and no circulated hot (exhaust) air.
For the inlet, I suggest making an opening (not just holes) on top of the gpu fan and make sure to use rubber pads to seal the space around the fan inside the case (100% external inlet air).
For the exhaust, make sure all the hot air is pushed outside the case (try to close the sides of the gpu or use thermal tapes to seal all the sides of the gpu that may leak hot air inside the case) and rubber pads between the gpu and the case to seal all leaked hot air.
I've done something similar to an old pc case and I had to add a fan on top of the gpu to force more fresh air into the case.
You should check out the Lenovo P3 tiny. I run a ADA 4000 SFF with n3rdware cooler and it seems to work much better then what you've reported. I also have it sitting on top of a laptop cooling pad to give it some extra airflow.
Super fun! Gonna definitely look at their gear.
Watching people apply Arctic Silver to an exposed die reminds me of putting thermal paste on an Athlon XP and praying that you don't chip the die when you put on a heatsink. Modern heatspreaders feel like cheating in comparison.
You can put some heatpads on the card to contact the case of the MS-01. This should help alot with getting the heat out of the card and transferring it to a bigger metal surface.
Very slick setup for a mini pc. Thanks for sharing this was awesome.
it needs small triple cooler fans and mesh filled holes in the case - you can make it work
i like your consistency of always being Jeff (unlike that other Jeff who we never know who'll be next time)
dude that mini pc can be a bad ass plex server.
If there is a small form factor multi-nvme adapter, you could slap on a bunch of ssd's on it, and run plex/jellyfin , it looks like a great homelab box
Thank you for this video! I was considering buying one of these but couldn't find any performance data. I suspected it wouldn't be adequate and you confirmed it! It's barely adequate with the stock cooler and my 3D rendering.
Well, my approach is making sure fresh air intake (like you did with the shroud). And the second thing is making sure the hot air is exhausted out of the case with additional shrouds.
Few days ago I got an Idea for another use for my MS-01 - "steam (always docked) deck" console. It is currently used as a micro server with proxmox that runs OpenWRT + OMV + Arch machine for things like dockers and other controllers like Omada SDN + OpenELEC. Don't know if you remember, but I asked you if you played with iGPU passthrough. Now I'm happy to report that OpenELEC is happily playing back 4K HDR with whatever auodio passthrough via HDMI (or any of the USB-C). Even CEC works great with the help of pulse-eight adapter. That means the PCIe slot is free.
So I came across ETA Prime video about single slot, half height 3050 6Gb by Yeston. It looked to me a bit underpowered. But seems like it either it, ada 2000 or wait and seen.
Anyway the Idea is to add another VM, pass through some kind of GPU and have some fun with friends and family.
This video is helpful. I’m saving up for this exact gpu.
13:45 A server fan strapped to the intake of the MS-01
How about adding an external fan? Maybe one with high static pressure.
13:58 The AS5 maybe a limiting factor, I'd replace it with either Thermal Grizzly Kryosheet thermal pad or Honeywell PTM7950. As for the shroud, I'd attach a 3D-printed snorkel magnetically (CA glue a flexible neodymium ring into the snorkel bottom) to the side of the case just over the fan in the GPU cooler.
That is awesome, I love how compact this beast of a PC is. I have some ideas to improve thermals non-destructively, in case you haven't lost patience yet and got out the dremel ;)
Your fan shroud design could be elongated a bit, so it takes advantage of more of the holes in the factory case lid. @9:48 you can see the shroud only covers about half of the factory holes.
You could also try closing the shrouds opening towards the back, to force the fan to suck the air from outside instead of the rear (even though I don't think the air there is far above ambient).
Another factor could be radiant heat from the large stainless cover of the cooler. With the lid closed, that heat gets nowhere, relying completely on the air flow. Maybe you can find a way to conduct the heat to the case somehow, but that is difficult with the cases sliding mechanism.
As a lot of other commenters said, as much as I love AS5, it might not be up to the task. Maybe a better thermal paste gets you another degree or two.
What if you add some thicc thermal pads between the gpu and the chassy and or motherboard that might dissipate some watt.
A couple ideas:
1. Swap out the AS5 for something more modern. TFX or PTM7950
2. Ditch thermal pads on the die side of the PCB for putty (absolutely not K5 pro, you want one of the real thermal puttys that has a clay-like texture)
3. This last one is more of a stretch but you can get 20x10mm fans to get more air movement.
man, MS-A1 and MS-01 look so similar I wouldn't have recognized the difference!
It's ironic you did this video. I have it's sister system, the barebox MS-A1 with the occulink port coming in. I've already got the rest of the pieces. Been considering doing a video on the build of the system. Could be fun. :)
I think liquid metal coould bring the temps down a few degrees in this sort of really high density thermal situation, but if it's cooler limited I might be wrong there and I know that's a bit risky on such an expensive card.
This is more modding the actual cooler but you could try soldering some very thin but wide heat pipes to the section of the cooler that touches the die of and use THICC thermal pads to make rest of the gpu make contact with the cooler. Or the same with a single slot gpu vapor chamber if you can find one via aliexpressfu haha.
Last weird idea is using front panel to distribute some heat with another THICC thermal pad but yeah man I dunno.
I'm sure you'll find something, you got this!
Arctic silver is my favorite paste. Been using it for years, and only have to replace every 8 years or so.
I would consider spliting the case in half with a divider, the cpu is potentially causing the gpu side of the case to heatsoak, also removing the mesh for the gpu fan as that will at least double your airflow with the mesh design that they used on that case panel
An observation i've made with this PC formfactor: If you check out how lenovo designs their GPU cooler, is that they don't exhaust trough the i/o, but have a opening before the i/o in the GPU and case shroud, with a little ramp to guide the air out that way. Would make the heatsink shorter, but also remove a lot of restriction for the air to move more freely. Maybe if the cooler was designed like the new RTX 2000e design, with an open shroud at the end? Or maybe the fan is just not good enough. COmparing it to the 2000e fan it does look... antiquated.
I will buy the one for my 4060 LP when it comes out. It's very cool. And yeah, the LTT mini is fantastic! I bought all three of their screwdrivers and love them.
There seems to be a lot of surface area on the cooler that could contact the sliding case cover via a springing mechanism. If the needed heat dissipation is close enough that might keep it down in the 80s C.
Seeing this, I would have gone with that Arc A310 and some Noctua thermal paste, honestly. But it’s incredible you got so far with this!
You sold me with the LTT screwdriver, a magnetic top!!!
Embarking on a project means we're going to get a seven-part series that spans over two years?; again?
I do hope so.
Those are the best
hearty chuckle after reading your comment, touche
7:41 Maybe close the few mm gap between the the heatsink shroud and the rear I/O panel with kapton tape or something to prevent hot air from recirculating back into the case. You can put thermal pads to sink heat from the metal shroud to the case panel
there's another option if you wanted a single slot low profile card- yeston just released a single slot low profile RTX 3050 recently. retailing at around $200 it's quite a nice middle ground between this and the lower tier a310/rx6400
I haven't had that Old Chico beer, but if you enjoy a lighter wheat bear, I 100% recommend Boulevard Brewing's Wheat beer. They're a good sized brewery in Kansas City that do some good work in the community, and Boulevard Wheat is TASTY. Absolutely delicious, although it is unfiltered, unlike the one you have in the video
If you tried a little harder, you probably could have gotten an extra 1/4" of thermal paste on that GPU 🤣 That is a work of art, sweet build!
Maybe a thermal pad should be added from copper to the outside of the case. Or, holes should be drilled in the outside case panel. It looks like a good graphics mod.
I would try some different thermal pastes. in addition, make some kind of shroud to cover the little gap at the end of the heatsink to make sure all the hot air goes out of the bracket and not inside the case itself. If that doesnt work, it looks like the holes in the case block some of the gpu fan so a little persuasion with a dremel and a new 3d printed intake shroud should help as well
I was looking for the answer to my ms-01 graphics card problem, you gave it to me, thanks. Seems like a better play to run the oculink 4090 if you spend this kind of cash, cool idea though.
Could you fit a 20mm fan in the front and tie it in to 12v somewhere? Dremel out some of the supports on the front of the case to increase air flow.
I remember cooling an Nvme on the backside of my mobo making it to contact with a waaaay to thick thermal pad , to the motherborad tray and it was steady at 35°. You could make contact the whole card heatsink to the case enclosure and use it a dissipating surface. 😂
Ah yes. This is the dream machine ^_^
The PCI bracket seems to be rather restrictive. Maybe just cut the bars holding the sides together? I wouldn't count that as destructive.
This screams perfect QubesOS for me. Virt-Manager gaming is noice
Perhaps you could thermal tape a copper shim so that it’s bridged to the case? You could also thermal glue a slim heat pipe to the cpu cooler. Could help 1c XD.
I would put in some PTM 7950 and maybe add in a few 80mm fans to get the air flowing.
I have no idea if they have a viable retail product yet, but Frore Systems was working on extremely slim, solid-state cooling. Maybe that could be of use.
So it sounds like the biggest problem is airflow. The heatsink (HS) being a chunk of metal is cool and all, but if you sliced more holes in it and made it 3 fans, eschwing the 'blower' style idea. Just throw as much air speed at it and let the case sort out where the air will go...
Fierce little thingy!
can u dremel some holes in the side for a few 40x10mm fans? whould they fit?
How about some thermal pads between the shroud & case? Maybe that'll help dissipate some heat by using the case as additional heat sink
You COULD always just trying retrofitting the n3rdware cooler with a slightly bigger fan, if the heatsink and the GPU itself, will tolerate it.
Given that you are able to run the GPU at full tilt when the case is open, but can't when the case it closed, suggests that the fan struggles to maintain the required volumetric flow rate for effective and efficient heat transfer given the increase in static pressure, when the case is closed.
You'll either need to find a better 40 mm x 40 mm fan that is more capable (at overcoming the static pressure), or just getting a slightly bigger fan overall.
print your own outer case a little thicker and include room for an intake fan
I would love to put the 4000 ada in my dell 3060 compact, it could fit even the dual slot cooler, but i feel that the single slot cooler and a 3d printed shroud to pull fresh air from the front of the pc would work nicely
3d print a taller cover for the side door better airflow? Similar to pi hat cases that have extra extension height to them
3d print your own cover to fit a stock rtx4000ada
What I want is a bigger case, with a PCI bus extension to the side and room for a full size gpu and internal PSU.
The MS01 runs quite hot even with nothing in the slot - my case gets warm to the touch when it's running non-idle and with a few M.2 drives onboard. The flow through the card area is low so that card is basically having to do double duty in bringing in fresh air and exhausting it without much assist. First thing I would try is to put a low-speed fan blowing INTO the case, making sure to not interfere with the two existing internal fans' flow. This could be done with an external shroud - someone else in comments mentioned some discussion on the forums too, but I haven't looked. I was thinking of putting an HBA card in there to drive some external SAS storage, but I'm wary of the airflow issue there too.
Jumping in before I watch this - I received my 4000SFF slimline cooler a few days ago , but I'm having trouble with the memory junction temp topping out at 102 degrees and throttling when installed in the MS-01. Re-pasted a couple of times without success... so far.
[edit] and now I've watched this and had my fears confirmed. Back to the drawing board, monty.
It takes a while to fine tune. I'm doing 1440p and capping at 60 and playing at high/very high graphic fidelity. Gotta just find the right tweak.
hope you are able to figure out those thermal problems.
@@ychto This is at full load (Heaven 4.0) - I'm trying worst case scenario first. I even tried removing the side rails to reverse fit the case shell, so the removable panel was on the top; to provide more opportunity for modding a solution or printing a shroud, but the shell would need a fair bit of modding to make it mate correctly with the front and rear panels. I did notice that the heat soak took longer when the MS-01 was mounted vertically.
@ yeah and I had mine set vertically. I mean I ran the thing all of PDXLAN.
@@ychto Nice job. Was this for esports titles or were you running something with a bit of heft to it? 😁
There is RTX 3050 by Yeston, which is single slot. It's a bit better gaming option than cards you mentioned. But for workload it's way slower :)
I wonder if just pointing a desk fan at the case would help, To me it looks like the low profile cooler relies on case airflow to get a bit more cooling,
What about plugging the GPU fan into the motherboard and cranking in up manually?
You can control the GPU fan already in software and he said that was attempted. The problem isn't fan speed it's air pressure and direction. Even 25W TDP cards get hot in the small space. I wish minisforum would have made the chassis true 2U and used the extra headroom to be 1.5 slot + extra header for a fan so we don't need to power added fans over USB 5V.
sierra nevada bigfoot ale is my absolute favorite. if you haven’t tried it, you need to.
Bigfoot is fantastic!
Glad I’m not crazy, I’m having same issue with the A2000. I’m ok with my case being off as well but had to point a small fan at the box.
That fan needs to be just alittle bigger but that cooler looks so good especially for the price
Have you tried not using the original lff bracket - and creating a shroud for the A4000 to lessen the mDP restriction at the exhaust?
The kit comes with a single slot SFF bracket, and is much more open than the OEM one.
@@CraftComputing Try without any bracket so it can exhaust as easy as possible, I think it can help something also other people mentioned tht you should try to use PTM7950
Perhaps do some testing in a slightly larger SFF case?
It's not a SFF case dude. Look up what the MS-01 is maybe? This being a mod for the MS-01 specifically, if he were to use a whole other computer as you suggest, there would be no point to this whole video, would there? The MS-01 is not SFF in the sense of the standard people call SFF, you cannot case swap it, so replacing the case means replacing the motherboard and power supply, and at that point you'd be better off swapping the rest too, and voilà you have no video of it because no one cares about another build video of a generic SFF gaming PC. Since you'd be stupid to run this graphics card in an SFF build - most SFF cases can take a bigger GPU which would mean you would be stupid to run A4000 Ada gen in it, and therefore you'd be better off with 100% different parts - you'd have a faster cheaper computer with potential for more RAM etc.
A simple change may be removing the I/O bracket to let more air past the display ports?
A thought about your 3d printed gasket:
Seems like it would still pull in hot air due to NOT having a closed backside (unless I'm missing something)
Maybe printing a full slanted cylinder to cover the full fan hole might be better?
Chico is my fav wheat, almost a lawnmower, it is hard to find here in Baja Oklahoma though.
@CraftCompting .. make your own external case and add a 14cm vent.. if you don't mind it being about 3cm higher .... cheers
*Jokingly debates thermal paste application methods*
No, but seriously, your method is just as valid as the classic dot that spreads when you mount the cooler. Both work well-it's just that the dot feels more like a straightforward, no-fuss approach, while your method has a bit of an esoteric flair! It's always interesting how vexed some get over thermal paste, it's such an odd thing to be passionate about. For those of us who understand how thermal paste works and its purpose, it's so easy to verify if an application works well or not :D
Using just a dot on a bare piece of silicon is asking for trouble. If it does not cover the entire chip you will damage your hardware.
@@DanishNighthawk I have tested it using a glass cube and I can see it spread and cover the whole die :)
i wonder if one could design an exhaust fan system for that little case? like something that sat up against the rear or snapped onto the rear with a nice fan.
The cooler design reminds me of the Radeon Pro low profile graphics cards.
Minisforum - please make V2 of this product about 1/4" larger in all directions and perhaps source some fans from Noctua and then take my money, well, more of it. But seriously, if it was just a touch bigger it would make a huge difference
Needs a cooler upgrade...
Get a mini fridge
Install it in the mini-fridge
Poke holes in it so it won't die
Thicc Boi GPU - nice
can you make a video showcasing ... what you can do with the card and ms-01.
Like a top 10 things to do or something. would be interessting to know different usecases for this.
I can only think about some AI / maschine learning / transcoding usecases.
might have to fully print a shell with better airflow
Just 3d print a new outer cover for the ms-01
That cooler could be useful on the back of my M4 iPad Pro
YOU NEED PTM7950!!!!!!! Might not seem like it will matter, but it does. I have a nuc x15 ARC gaming laptop and it does the same thing, until I used ptm7950, still runs the fans like crazy but temps lowered just enough to keep it around 86c so it doesn't throttle.
Looks like the fan is 1/3rd occluded by the case. It would be interesting to see if you slid the case partially open (so the fan intake had the full vent) if this would be enough, then I wonder if n3rdware could do a new model moving the fan across....
Maybe add thermal pad against the case and the cooler and it will do the trick
Maybe I’ll buy the custom heat sink then wait a couple of years for the a4000 to be available on the used market .
I would be cool to see rtx 3050, 4060 to become single slot, just for 3 HDMI is all you need in my opinion, and making the fan thinner like the video shown, with the fan at the rear, similar look of the Nvidia gtx 10 series design