What Is Mouthpiece Refacing
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- Опубліковано 11 кві 2019
- Here's some thoughts on mouthpiece refacing. IMPORTANT - never work on your own mouthpiece. Never attempt this process without proper training and guidance. ALSO never have your primary mouthpiece refaced! Mouthpieces always play different after refacing.
Anyway, it occurred to me that a lot of people might not understand this process, its purpose, its scope, and the amount of skill required. If you already know about this process you probably will already know a lot of this information. If you are new to it or just want to hear some boring man talk about mouthpieces for 16 minutes sit back, grab a drink, and enjoy. Please share, like, and subscribe.
"I don't know what I'm doing, and I don't suggest you do it either!" hahah
i’m planning on making mouthpieces, this was very useful, thank you
I have to quote your initial comments on this footage:
"Never work on your own mouthpiece"
"Mouthpiece refacing requires many years of study, practice, trial and error"
And then let me rephrase, if I may.
If you (want to and) get into the repairing mouthpieces craftmanship, I guess you have to work on your own (and most inexpensive) mouthpieces in order to study, and practice on them, with lots of hours of trial and error.
Along of course with the guidance of a master of this craftmanship.
Otherwise, we will run out of technicians...
Aside from the above comment, you provided us a great and infirmative footage!
lol
Yes. And many mouthpieces will be ruined before you become proficient. That's just the way it is.
Feeler sizes needed are: .0015" (referred to as "one and a half thousandths"). This is used to measure the facing length. It is quite delicate, and some guys use .002", though that gives a slightly shorter, about 1 mm shorter, measured length. Does not matter as long as you are consistent. Next is .010" (ten thousandths). Then .014", .024" or .025" (will give the same measurement), .030" or .031" (will give the same measurement), .048" or .050", .063", .077" or .078" (2 mm), .094". There are two types of glass gauges. One type, the zero is not on the edge, but about 2 mm away from the edge. I prefer the "zero edge". The zero is right on the edge. The mouthpiece can be placed on the glass and the mouthpiece and glass pushed lightly against a vertical surface, such as the edge of your workbench, to align the mouthpiece to zero on the glass. The wands are fine for measuring tip with most clarinet mouthpieces, but for sax mouthpieces with a good "roll over" baffle the wand sometimes hits the roll over, not the tip rail, resulting in a false reading. I use the gauge fixture from Theo Wanne or the one I have from long ago from Winslow (long out of business) holding digital gauges fitted with a small ball tip. The ball tip will contact the tip rail at only one point, giving an accurate and repeatable reading without scratching the tip rail. For plastic and hard rubber, 600 grit silicon carbide paper will do most jobs, but 800 and 1000 sometimes used for a little polishing. Metal, 400 grit to start, finishing with 600. Stainless steel mouithpieces, Bergs, are VERY difficult to reface.
Very important job... Keep the good work.. Greatings from Romania.
Thank you very much for your videos. All the best
Great video! The H. Couf mouthpieces were made by J.J. Babbitt and were hard rubber, on the same quality level as Meyer.
The wrong mouthpiece can be an opportunity. My main bass clarinet piece is an open Greg Wier and I needed a backup. A "came with the horn" piece was pretty awful, so I measured the lay on the Wier piece and extended the lay on the second piece to match. I then opened up the tip, ending up with a playable backup. I also had a Yamaha plastic #7 which received the same treatment and got a similar result. Neither is as good as the Wier but either could get me out of trouble and both blow far more freely than before. Gaining confidence I rebuilt a Link Tone Edge clarinet piece with a broken tip so that it plays better than my B45. Of those 3 mouthpieces only the Yamaha had any value at all, so there was very little to lose.
I also have a Selmer E metal alto sax piece belonging to a bandmate. He wanted a wider tip and presumably looked at UA-cam. The piece is now totally asymmetrical but it does make a good, if rather expensive doorstop. He would have been far better off trading it in.
Good Job!!!ThanksAlex
Nice video!!
Nice layman's overview. Refacing can be amazing, but I don't know how to adjust the facing in discrete areas. Any clues?
Agreed!, you need to find a craftsman......I knew Freddie Gregory and had the good fortune to live 2 miles from him in NW London in the late 90's and 2000's. Freddie would call me up and want me to come over to try mouthpieces sent by "name" players - especially once he'd made a copy of that mouthpiece.
In hindsight it was a fascinating time, Freddie was a colorful character, to say the least. At 8:53 Andy does the same procedure that Freddie did on my 1931 Master Link, saving that mouthpiece and lending me a eureka moment as regards why Steve Grossman loved those pieces.
dig. thanks for sharing this. I'll bet that was a magical time. I love this stuff and am always learning and understanding more. Cheers man.
so good!
Yeah, I enjoyed this
I think that I may try it with an old mouthpiece i have, Just Hoping that I could manufacture the HOLY GRAIL of mouthpieces, you never know lol
The Brilhart Ebolin was made from plastic by Arnold Brilhart and used by Gene Ammons, Bud Shank and Benny Carter.
Well, man, you asked for reaction. Looking at retirement "career" options, and I think you've successfully scared me away from this option. ;) Appreciate it, though, because this WAS very informative.
I was looking at a Pro resurfacers site. It would cost more the price of an already expensive mouthpiece to re-work. No chance; just bin it or sell it 🙄.
would you be kind and give us some links for the tools you use? I would like to experiment and I am sure , alot other might be interested
The problem may not be the mouthpiece. It may be due to improper or inadequate embouchure adaptation.
Hey man! Nice overview!
thanks. I was just checking out your channel. Someday when this is all over I'd love to send you a piece to do. stay safe and healthy!
@@saxophonegeeks Thanks man! I've been subscribed to yours for a while, I enjoy your videos. You stay safe and healthy as well!
Do you work on berg larsens? I ruined mine. Lol idiot me.
I was just about ( to-day ) to try and fix a metal Link with uneven rails? It blows great but isn't reed friendly at all. After watching this vid I'm thinking maybe trying to fix it myself isn't such a good idea after all? Is there a re-facer out here you'd personally recommend? On another note thanks to you showing "us" how to use a Link lig I'm now back ( after 20 years of using a Selmer lig on my metal link ) to using a Link lig and it works great.. Great vid thanks for sharing.. dk
Contact Brian Powell , in Dayton ,ohio
@@grantkoeller8911 thanks grant
Many thanks for this interesting video. I ask to you where is possible to purchase the tools that you use?
Music medic has some of the measuring tools. Some folks make their own tools, and the needle files should be cheap and available online.
what brand and / or where to get that measuring tool around 3:15? Can find only very rough ones. Thanks
Unfortunately they're hard to find. They were part of the "Morgan Refacing Kit' which is no longer produced. You might find a kit on eBay if you watch for a while. Most people now use the millimeter gauge type. there also were there little wedge type gauges I think made back in the day by Babbitt, but they are very rare. good luck.
Ha great stuff
Great video! I think refacing is too hard, but I would like to be able to measure a mouthpiece, especialy when I buy a used one. Can you please tell me where I can buy the glass and the wand? Thank you
no but if you do some searching online, eBay, social media woodwind pages, you might be able to find something for sale. I'd like to find a glass one myself. the one I have is a plastic replacement. The set would have come with a nice glass gauge. Long gone.
The feeler gauges are used for all kinds of mechanical stuff - my dad had a set for stuff like engine valve adjustment and spark plug gap. I don't think they're usually removed from the "fan" because folding it back up protects them from getting dented or bent.
If you begin with a mouthpiece with a .075" tip opening, and the thickness of the tip is .040", to bring it to .105" tip opening would mean you would need to remove .105" - .075" = .030" of material. If the tip thickness is only .040", then .040" - .030" = .010" remaining thickness. This razor thin tip would be very delicate and easy to break. No, you just can't do this. If you then file back the tip you have also lost some of the tip opening gained. Some jobs like this are just a losing proposition. If you take material from the table in an attempt to angle the tip up you will create an abrupt angle at the break, or where the facing comes away from the table. You will end up with a facing that has a sharp curve at the break, and long nearly flat region. It just doesn't work out. This is like wanting to bore out an automotive engine, only to run into the water jacket, or stroke the engine (longer throw on the crankshaft) only to find the connecting rods hit the inside of the block. There are limits to what you can do.
sure. and then you have to cut back window to a proper shape. Tons of experience is required. Like like playing. Just like rebuilding 283s and 327s and 8BAs.
Good morning, I would like to learn how to reface, I'm from Brazil, could you help me?
I teach online zoom lessons and would be willing to teach you mouthpiece theory and concepts which would help you get started. email me at thesaxophonegeek@gmail.com to talk about setting this up.
I didn’t understand how you measured the tip opening by putting the metal piece in vertically
it's a tool specifically designed for the purpose.
What is the name of that caliper
Its metric , than he converts to 1000th's of an inch
Its called a tip wand
Wow🎷🎷
I enjoyed it. L
Check out SYOS in Paris. Seriously. That is the future of getting exactly what you want. Infinite parameters. Love your Vlog!
I met the lady who makes them here in boston. I'm aware of them but didn't try any. Didn't have the time and I'm not a fan of plastic as a material. I do notice a lot of people playing them as they gain popularity and presence on the inter webs. Not my thing. I'll wait till they start showing up on eBay for $2. THat's my time!
I can dig it! Ha! Keep on Bro!@@saxophonegeeks
Saxophone Geek I have SYOS pieces that desperately need refacing. They are not perfect.
just 3d printed my second mouthpiece..it makes a sound....not quite a sax sound... Gotta face and set it correctly. Learning and ready to go
I noticed there is some even uneven parts on my face. Is it dangerous to just sand that down just one pass?
never ever work on your main piece. You can never undo what you have done. If it plays OK leave it alone. Start looking for another mouthpiece. You'll be glad you did.
Its called a facing not a face.
@@grantkoeller8911 and yet another reason why should not do it
Don't use sandpaper on your face.
I turned a mediocre piece into a killer with judicious adjustment with. a couple of swipes.
Is it possible to reface the mouthpiece from 0.72 to 0.67? I’m trying to work around an alto sax mouthpiece.
you would have to sand the table down a bit to make sure the tip opening becomes smaller
where I can get dud mouthpieces??
eBay. local music stores. Maybe schools that had music programs that went defunct. Try fan pages on social media. Try Craigs list.
The American practice of referring to the various mouthpiece parameters or dimensions by numbers or stars makes no sense. The continental practice is much more sensible and direct. When a mouthpiece is listed as having a face length of 24mm, and a tip opening of 2.00mm, there is no need to refer to special tables or charts that convert these insane numbers to either inches or millimeters . The Erick Brand method of facing and tip opening is needlessly cumbersome. Just specify the facing length as so many millimeters and he tip opening in millimeters. The type of facing curve is more complicated and made so much more so by the introduction of computer technology into what could be just a qualitative description of the facing curve as being either American , French or German. The American curve is the simplest being in fact more a straight line, the French and German facings have been made totally complicated and totally incomprehensible. What is essential to the entire exercise is that the mouthpiece performs as desired by the player. There is an entire world of empirically derived information and techniques and there is really no need to be a Ph. D. in mathematics to work the mouthpiece to the players satisfaction. The most satisfactory mouthpieces were made by the masters in the days of Adolphe Sax and later with no application of mathematics or computer involvement.
The standard American system of mouthpiece tip openings is in 1000th.s of an inch. The Otto Link system is used for tenor, 5, 5*, 6, 6*, 7, 7*, 8, 8* 9 and so forth.... and the Meyer system is used for Alto 4MM, 5MM, 6MM, 7MM, 8MM, 9MM,
The Selmer system is metric and uses letters , B, B*, C, C*, C,**, D, E, F, G,
The Erick Brand method of facing length is used and the number is doubled what the glass gauge says.