I found it very useful. Lots of folks felt that i ought to have counterbored first then did the long boring, but this would in my mind only work at the starting end. Long boring being as prone to wander as they are, to try to anticipate the exit hole by counterboring first would be nothing short of hubris!
Wow, getting coordinates for the bolts from the plans? That's something I might do, but I figure I'm on the compulsive side of things. Wouldn't most people use their eye to determine where the bolts go?
Well my argument was that the designer went to the trouble to show the bolt positions, and I trust that Walter Simmons might know a thing or two more than me with respect to bolt placement. It really didn’t take that long. But regardless, it is wise to determine the exit location ahead of time, so you can mark guidelines on the timbers for the long borings. As you can see, I clamped straight edges along the guidelines to sight against while boring
Much easier to drill the big hole first. What you are doing, BTW, is counterboring, not countersinking (which is a conical shaped hole). It's good practise to put a circle of bedding compound around the bolts. If any water tracks along the bolt, it then can't get out into the joint.
Duly noted on terminology. As for counterboring first that would seem to only make sense on one end since one cant anticipate exactly where youll emerge during the boring process
@@neophyteboatwrights Leo shows you how it is done at the other end of the hole at around the 5.00 mark onwards: ua-cam.com/video/9HEmOAxjBFI/v-deo.html
@@neophyteboatwrights Yes, you have to counterbore afterwards on one end of the hole - there's a special kind of forstner bit to do it, or it's possible to drive a short piece of dowel into the hole, drill a pilot/guide hole through the center of it, and use a spade bit or a brad point bit to counterbore the other end if you're not just going to leave the inside nut and bolt proud.
@@bawrytr right. Which is pretty much what we did. Nevertheless, Despite the general consensus being counterboring first is easier, i dont see a massive advantage in doing so. Seems like 6 of one half a dozen of the other. It would matter more for a big boat with very long deep boring. Otherwise using the dowel trick on both ends is not very time consuming or tricky. But next time we need to bore and counterbore we will be sure to counterbore first
I’ve thought about this and have mixed feelings. My intention is, before painting, I’ll loosen nuts and bed the washers down. Bedding the whole length of the bolts seems problematic. If water does get in the hole, then I want gravity to draw it down to the bottom. My fear is bedding compound along the bolt hole will trap whatever water does get in and won’t allow it to drain.
To the best of my knowledge, historically stopwaters were used in conjunction with bedding compound, back when tar would have been the primary bedding. But with the invention of more modern materials like polysulphide and polyurethane based compounds stopwaters tend to be a lil redundant. Nevertheless theres no harm in using a stopwater and i know current small boat builders will use them in conjunction with modern bedding compounds.
Okay, not trying to be a pedantic jerk here but the term "counter-sink" you refer to should actually be referred to as a "counter-bore". The difference is that a countersink has a tapered hole while a counter-bore is flat bottomed. Hence, counter-sinking for flat headed screws to sit flush. I mention it only because if you were to order a counter-sink bit sight unseen when you actually need to counter-bore, you would be disappointed. Counter-bore bits are pretty useful to have on hand and they often have pilot bits that correspond with the same size carriage bolt head you want to counterbore for. the auger bit technique you use works fine but a counterbore is a little easier and allows you to bore into a slanted surface by following your pilot hole.
Don't worry, Mark. The other pedantic jerks already beat you to the punch. Should have known boatbuilders would be browbeaters when it comes to terminology. The distinction between counter-boring and counter-sinking is easy enough to understand, and we've been sufficiently disciplined by the YT panjandrums to never make the same mistake again! I need to look into putting a card into the vid that announces and corrects the fault in terminology.
@@neophyteboatwrights Hahaha. The Tubes will keep you on your toes that way for sure. I just use a different word for the same thing three times in every sentence. It throws them off the scent.
Is it really necessary to do all the plotting and calculation of coordinates for each bolt. It looks like the designer just originally intended to show the number of bolts that were needed to attach the various pieces. I don’t imagine it would make much of a difference if they were off an inch or so in either direction, so long as they went through the two pieces and weren’t too close to any edge. Are these plans really intended to be precise gospel specifications or is there some wiggle room?
Yes and no. The designer didnt just draw them in willynilly. theres some considerations: forces involved etc and length of bolts, the angle determines the necessity for counterboring at the nut and washer end which needs to be considered carefully to avoid creating pockets for water that wont drain naturally. But yeah small deviations from the plans arent disastrous or anything. In some cases we tweaked the position to avoid bolts falling too close to joints. I think it depends on how well you understand the structural stresses that a particularly component is likely to experience, and in what way the bolting best supports a components function
@@neophyteboatwrights That makes sense. It’s always easier to vary from the plans if you have in depth knowledge of why the plans are the way they are. If not, then it’s always better to stick with the plans.
I like the dowel trick. Whether or not it's the best approach here, it's a good thing to know. You never know when it could come in handy.
I found it very useful. Lots of folks felt that i ought to have counterbored first then did the long boring, but this would in my mind only work at the starting end. Long boring being as prone to wander as they are, to try to anticipate the exit hole by counterboring first would be nothing short of hubris!
Wow, getting coordinates for the bolts from the plans? That's something I might do, but I figure I'm on the compulsive side of things. Wouldn't most people use their eye to determine where the bolts go?
Well my argument was that the designer went to the trouble to show the bolt positions, and I trust that Walter Simmons might know a thing or two more than me with respect to bolt placement. It really didn’t take that long. But regardless, it is wise to determine the exit location ahead of time, so you can mark guidelines on the timbers for the long borings. As you can see, I clamped straight edges along the guidelines to sight against while boring
Much easier to drill the big hole first. What you are doing, BTW, is counterboring, not countersinking (which is a conical shaped hole).
It's good practise to put a circle of bedding compound around the bolts. If any water tracks along the bolt, it then can't get out into the joint.
Duly noted on terminology. As for counterboring first that would seem to only make sense on one end since one cant anticipate exactly where youll emerge during the boring process
@@neophyteboatwrights Leo shows you how it is done at the other end of the hole at around the 5.00 mark onwards: ua-cam.com/video/9HEmOAxjBFI/v-deo.html
Appreciate it
@@neophyteboatwrights Yes, you have to counterbore afterwards on one end of the hole - there's a special kind of forstner bit to do it, or it's possible to drive a short piece of dowel into the hole, drill a pilot/guide hole through the center of it, and use a spade bit or a brad point bit to counterbore the other end if you're not just going to leave the inside nut and bolt proud.
@@bawrytr right. Which is pretty much what we did. Nevertheless, Despite the general consensus being counterboring first is easier, i dont see a massive advantage in doing so. Seems like 6 of one half a dozen of the other. It would matter more for a big boat with very long deep boring. Otherwise using the dowel trick on both ends is not very time consuming or tricky. But next time we need to bore and counterbore we will be sure to counterbore first
Just curious, do you not put bedding compound on the bolts and holes to keep water from following along their paths?
I’ve thought about this and have mixed feelings. My intention is, before painting, I’ll loosen nuts and bed the washers down. Bedding the whole length of the bolts seems problematic. If water does get in the hole, then I want gravity to draw it down to the bottom. My fear is bedding compound along the bolt hole will trap whatever water does get in and won’t allow it to drain.
Better to counterbore first, uh like others have pointed out I see. :-)
Is the bedding compound better than a stop water? Or is it just different?
To the best of my knowledge, historically stopwaters were used in conjunction with bedding compound, back when tar would have been the primary bedding. But with the invention of more modern materials like polysulphide and polyurethane based compounds stopwaters tend to be a lil redundant. Nevertheless theres no harm in using a stopwater and i know current small boat builders will use them in conjunction with modern bedding compounds.
Okay, not trying to be a pedantic jerk here but the term "counter-sink" you refer to should actually be referred to as a "counter-bore". The difference is that a countersink has a tapered hole while a counter-bore is flat bottomed. Hence, counter-sinking for flat headed screws to sit flush. I mention it only because if you were to order a counter-sink bit sight unseen when you actually need to counter-bore, you would be disappointed. Counter-bore bits are pretty useful to have on hand and they often have pilot bits that correspond with the same size carriage bolt head you want to counterbore for. the auger bit technique you use works fine but a counterbore is a little easier and allows you to bore into a slanted surface by following your pilot hole.
Don't worry, Mark. The other pedantic jerks already beat you to the punch. Should have known boatbuilders would be browbeaters when it comes to terminology. The distinction between counter-boring and counter-sinking is easy enough to understand, and we've been sufficiently disciplined by the YT panjandrums to never make the same mistake again! I need to look into putting a card into the vid that announces and corrects the fault in terminology.
@@neophyteboatwrights Hahaha. The Tubes will keep you on your toes that way for sure. I just use a different word for the same thing three times in every sentence. It throws them off the scent.
Is it really necessary to do all the plotting and calculation of coordinates for each bolt. It looks like the designer just originally intended to show the number of bolts that were needed to attach the various pieces. I don’t imagine it would make much of a difference if they were off an inch or so in either direction, so long as they went through the two pieces and weren’t too close to any edge. Are these plans really intended to be precise gospel specifications or is there some wiggle room?
Yes and no. The designer didnt just draw them in willynilly. theres some considerations: forces involved etc and length of bolts, the angle determines the necessity for counterboring at the nut and washer end which needs to be considered carefully to avoid creating pockets for water that wont drain naturally. But yeah small deviations from the plans arent disastrous or anything. In some cases we tweaked the position to avoid bolts falling too close to joints. I think it depends on how well you understand the structural stresses that a particularly component is likely to experience, and in what way the bolting best supports a components function
@@neophyteboatwrights That makes sense. It’s always easier to vary from the plans if you have in depth knowledge of why the plans are the way they are. If not, then it’s always better to stick with the plans.
Precisely!
BORING.
An incredible feat in raw wit
And counterboring too.