”Turns out chaos don’t need an anvil, their anvil is also their hammer, and points denial and also f*ck you” really cracked me up XD some top tier analysis right there!
@@CloseOrder Very true.. Bit crazy that chaos lord on dragon + 2 mounted lvl 4 Sorcerer lords are allowed at 2k, they will have almost no items but still :P
Interesting about Minotaurs. They took a nerf after a previous FAQ said slaughter’s call only worked on Primal Fury inspired frenzy. However that ruling was not in the last FAQ so at the present time Minotaurs are actually a bit better RAW because you can put a hero level bull in there with a Beserker blade and give them all frenzy. So four of them with hand weapons would be around 20 str 5 -2 ap attacks after impact hits on the charge (with a banner of outrage to help ensure the primal fury passes). I hope that combo remains available after the next FAQ
"Dogs Of War Badlands Ogre Bulls may be taken as Mercenaries in any army made using any GrandArmy composition list that includes a Mercenaries category." They can go in Legacy armies, and there's only a 1/18 chance of being forced into ambush. Other than that, they're as you said kinda more flexible ogre bulls with no real category points competition and which can go in armies which need them way more. Access to greatweapon ogres offers a crazy amount of help to, say, skaven.
Also Empire. I wrote my Empire Army list to Max out my Mercenaries allotment with them. And I plan to use Landsknecht Ogre proxies to model them in theme with the rest of the army. I also plan to run them as unit fillers if I ever go to a tournament that doesn't allow mercs.
The idea around the msu terror iron guts mainly arrived out of frustration against fanatics, and I'll admit isn't great(read useless against all undead, daemons and other armies that are immune to terror because they cause fear). The squads are only 144pts, 150pts with veteran, so you can take two of those and a block of 7/8 bulls to fill out your core. The main use for them is the guts can sit in marching column in a wood and cause terror checks while not being at risk from fanatics because marching column prevents them from charge moving and so they can't leave the wood. However what compounds this is that a unit must take a terror check per terror causing unit that declares a charge against it. So lets say a goblin unit fails one of the two terror checks from the guts, they can potentially redirect into another squad and cause more terror checks. Also since the oppoents unit takes the check the moment a charge is declared, you never over allocate the checks. beyond this you can easily take a tyrant/brusier BSB on stone horn, 2 units of mournfangs and a lvl4 with demon slayer scars in the bulls for 6 terror causing units plus a cannon i guess depending on magic items, i would try and position from either outside 15 with the swiftstride units to try and bait fanatics out and then only declare charges with the marching column guts from safety, or try and terror bomb a single unit with everything until it failed and i could move on to the next, until the process started all over again with redirects. I should stress that this was only vaguely successful because i played it against a goblin list and then skaven, but also because we also put down terrain so i could move out of deployment and still be in a wood. Also I'm only vaguely sure that terror checks stack because it doesn't say they don't unlike fear and it happens as charges are declared which happen one by one, so I could just be wrong about that, at which point ignore everything I've said
@@CloseOrder The faq for the main rule books says uses the phrase "they don't move at all and the charge fails" when talking about why units in marching column can still declare charges so I've presumed they just don't move
This is an awesome video. Such a useful overview for those who don't have much time to study all the unit entries and experience playing them all. Looking forward to insights on other unit types! Keep it up!
The best use case for skirmish screen on kroxis imo is defensive - you run the Skinks out far ahead of the krox, such that the unit you want to engage can't reach the krox even with a maximum roll. You flee charge with the Skinks and they have to travel their full distance which lands then close to the krox. Even if the Skinks are fleeing the krox can still charge through them. It's very good for zoning cavalry but basically means your krox need to hang back 17" or more from the action, which if your game plan involves rushing doesn't work so well.
@@CloseOrder yes, vs something like grail knights where they really don't want to be waiting around eating free Skink shots it can be a nice lose-lose situation for your opponent
I've been playing around with the 2+ save Minotaur unit in core, unsure how well I like but seems decent (at least on paper). I'd love to hear you guys get into more Beastmen discussion - there's not too much competitive content for them out online. Fun stuff, looking forward to more tier lists.
Have you guys considered that chaos troll and ogres are not only for warriors but also Beastmen ? Still not great but beast can get more uses out of them
It's also just sad that they're bottom of this list, because they're such a weird and cool model. One of the best things about playing Chaos Dwarfs is that people are always excited to see them across the table. What does all this mad shit do? :D So it's unfortunate that we don't really want to take the metal fire daemons.
Going to need about a dozen more videos like this, maybe starting with Behemoths seeing as how they're the perennial threat on Old World tables right now. Or maybe even chariots, because chariots.
@@CloseOrder Oh that's silly of me, somehow I had it mixed up that the Behemoth video I saw from you was from SquareBased or something. Alright, that's Behemoths scratched off, maybe we can get Chariots next? :)
@@CloseOrder Sounds good, actually hoping for Monstrous Cav given the obvious and significant outliers in that category, and I'd love to see some I didn't expect or even know about and how they stack up against the two obvious ones I have in mind.
In terms of a tier list we're rating units against each other - if you want to run the units that are less competitive but you like more, don't let me stop you!
Obviously there's not going to be as in depth analysis for armies you don't actively play, so I'll expand on the ushabti thing. If we're adding in armies of infamy (and we are, because those trolls are garbage without the troll horde), we need to talk about mortuary cult and how it impacts the units. First up, resing units; priests get +1, meaning you can bring back 5 wounds on these guys from just your general. Resing in general, imo, easily makes up for no reroll on the Regen, and the reliability of bringing back two models from general+bsb really pushes it to a frustration point. Second, draining wounds to power spells; you can do it to ushabti and sling out spells super reliably. Transform that LVL 1 into a LVL 4; send out spirit vortex at a +7 (or 9). Third, the rest of the magic synergy. You generally three wizards in that list, and if you've got a bunch of wizards and a bunch of ushabti, you'll be taking cursed blades for rerolling 1s to hit. If you're taking lots of casters, then you're taking at least one casket for another +1 to cast/bound per. That also means you'll have light of protection for a 6+ ward and blanket -1 to be hit. So those ushabti are really going to: be hitting on 4s rerolling 1s with greatbows; be -1 to hit with a 5+, 6+, 6+; be healed usually around 7 wounds per turn if they're focussed; powering up the casting super hard. Oh and their Regen isn't ignored by flaming attacks. Easily top of S.
Nurglings are absolutely far above your assessment, and you really need to give them some respect. You mentioned rat swarms and how they die easily. Nurglings have 4 additional layers of defence above them (reroll 6s to hit, Toughness 3 on a swarm, 5+ ward, 6+ regen) and 40% more wounds. On top of that, they have poisoned attacks so will pull the odd wound off of things they have no business fighting. They are 6.5 points per wound. You can run demonolpgy with them for a cute 24” move in any direction with skirmish. They cause fear. I run 2 units of 4, which is 56 wounds for 360 core points in 2 units. Your core can be unkillable slime and furies, which might compete for strongest overall core in the game. Then you fill out with GUO, Soul Grinder, Flies and Beasts as needed. Mono nurgle is incredibly powerful, and that’s not counting including off theme demons to fix gaps in your game plan.
”Turns out chaos don’t need an anvil, their anvil is also their hammer, and points denial and also f*ck you” really cracked me up XD some top tier analysis right there!
Chaos Dragon, coming to a deployment zone near you (yours)
@@CloseOrder Very true.. Bit crazy that chaos lord on dragon + 2 mounted lvl 4 Sorcerer lords are allowed at 2k, they will have almost no items but still :P
Yeah the points are the only limiter there!
@@CloseOrder Why not instead (and hear me out) put the Lvl 4 on a Dragon!?! Then you have plenty of points for the Puppet I mean magic items.
@@chriscousens111 I got something cooking for the Arcane Journal that might or might not include a Sorcerer on Dragon (despite his sad T5 😢)
Interesting about Minotaurs. They took a nerf after a previous FAQ said slaughter’s call only worked on Primal Fury inspired frenzy. However that ruling was not in the last FAQ so at the present time Minotaurs are actually a bit better RAW because you can put a hero level bull in there with a Beserker blade and give them all frenzy. So four of them with hand weapons would be around 20 str 5 -2 ap attacks after impact hits on the charge (with a banner of outrage to help ensure the primal fury passes). I hope that combo remains available after the next FAQ
Don't forget the chaos trolls, ogres and spawn can be taken by beastmen too!
"Dogs Of War
Badlands Ogre Bulls may be taken as Mercenaries in any army made using any GrandArmy composition list that includes a Mercenaries category."
They can go in Legacy armies, and there's only a 1/18 chance of being forced into ambush. Other than that, they're as you said kinda more flexible ogre bulls with no real category points competition and which can go in armies which need them way more. Access to greatweapon ogres offers a crazy amount of help to, say, skaven.
Oh hell yeah! As much as I hate mercs I'm going to have a genuine think about whether I try them in Skaven
Also Empire. I wrote my Empire Army list to Max out my Mercenaries allotment with them. And I plan to use Landsknecht Ogre proxies to model them in theme with the rest of the army.
I also plan to run them as unit fillers if I ever go to a tournament that doesn't allow mercs.
Definitely in theme! I feel like as for playstyle the Demigryph Knights do a similar role for me
The idea around the msu terror iron guts mainly arrived out of frustration against fanatics, and I'll admit isn't great(read useless against all undead, daemons and other armies that are immune to terror because they cause fear). The squads are only 144pts, 150pts with veteran, so you can take two of those and a block of 7/8 bulls to fill out your core.
The main use for them is the guts can sit in marching column in a wood and cause terror checks while not being at risk from fanatics because marching column prevents them from charge moving and so they can't leave the wood. However what compounds this is that a unit must take a terror check per terror causing unit that declares a charge against it. So lets say a goblin unit fails one of the two terror checks from the guts, they can potentially redirect into another squad and cause more terror checks. Also since the oppoents unit takes the check the moment a charge is declared, you never over allocate the checks.
beyond this you can easily take a tyrant/brusier BSB on stone horn, 2 units of mournfangs and a lvl4 with demon slayer scars in the bulls for 6 terror causing units plus a cannon i guess depending on magic items, i would try and position from either outside 15 with the swiftstride units to try and bait fanatics out and then only declare charges with the marching column guts from safety, or try and terror bomb a single unit with everything until it failed and i could move on to the next, until the process started all over again with redirects.
I should stress that this was only vaguely successful because i played it against a goblin list and then skaven, but also because we also put down terrain so i could move out of deployment and still be in a wood. Also I'm only vaguely sure that terror checks stack because it doesn't say they don't unlike fear and it happens as charges are declared which happen one by one, so I could just be wrong about that, at which point ignore everything I've said
As I understand the marching column/charge interaction it would be a failed charge - so you'd still move a failed charge distance with the Ironguts
@@CloseOrder The faq for the main rule books says uses the phrase "they don't move at all and the charge fails" when talking about why units in marching column can still declare charges so I've presumed they just don't move
@@nothingbettertodo66 interesting! I'll have to re-read that - sounds like my understanding on it might be wrong
I accept the statements regarding my spawn, however…when that killing blow comes off they’re S tier!
70% of the time it works every time
Chaos trolls can get additional hand weapons for more attacks, I think they're still solid.
This is an awesome video. Such a useful overview for those who don't have much time to study all the unit entries and experience playing them all. Looking forward to insights on other unit types! Keep it up!
The best use case for skirmish screen on kroxis imo is defensive - you run the Skinks out far ahead of the krox, such that the unit you want to engage can't reach the krox even with a maximum roll. You flee charge with the Skinks and they have to travel their full distance which lands then close to the krox. Even if the Skinks are fleeing the krox can still charge through them.
It's very good for zoning cavalry but basically means your krox need to hang back 17" or more from the action, which if your game plan involves rushing doesn't work so well.
That's a good shout! And the skinks put out enough hurt you definitely want to shut them down, so you need to pressure them somewhere
@@CloseOrder yes, vs something like grail knights where they really don't want to be waiting around eating free Skink shots it can be a nice lose-lose situation for your opponent
I've been playing around with the 2+ save Minotaur unit in core, unsure how well I like but seems decent (at least on paper). I'd love to hear you guys get into more Beastmen discussion - there's not too much competitive content for them out online.
Fun stuff, looking forward to more tier lists.
2+ save Minotaurs? Eager to hear about them!
What is the Skaven list you mentioned around the 30 min mark?
If I was talking about Gutter Runners it's the list from any of the BatReps Ivey done with Skaven in on this channel
Have you guys considered that chaos troll and ogres are not only for warriors but also Beastmen ?
Still not great but beast can get more uses out of them
Ungrim likes these 😎🤘🔥
Brays can't take Battle Magic. So that's why you never see it.
Yeah we correct that about 5 minutes after we start talking about it
@CloseOrder yup, I heard that. I wish though!
"Look how they massacred my boys" - me, a K'daai enjoyer
It's also just sad that they're bottom of this list, because they're such a weird and cool model. One of the best things about playing Chaos Dwarfs is that people are always excited to see them across the table. What does all this mad shit do? :D So it's unfortunate that we don't really want to take the metal fire daemons.
Going to need about a dozen more videos like this, maybe starting with Behemoths seeing as how they're the perennial threat on Old World tables right now. Or maybe even chariots, because chariots.
Well have I got good news for you - I'm doing these every two weeks and the one I did 2 weeks ago was Behemoths!
@@CloseOrder Oh that's silly of me, somehow I had it mixed up that the Behemoth video I saw from you was from SquareBased or something. Alright, that's Behemoths scratched off, maybe we can get Chariots next? :)
I've got a couple of spicy ones in the pipeline! It very much depends what each guest wants to talk about
@@CloseOrder Sounds good, actually hoping for Monstrous Cav given the obvious and significant outliers in that category, and I'd love to see some I didn't expect or even know about and how they stack up against the two obvious ones I have in mind.
Ready for my ogres to be mid at best
Don't always pick the best, mix it up, the awesome models justify using them, it's sad you wouldn't use minotaurs because you have dragon ogres. :(
In terms of a tier list we're rating units against each other - if you want to run the units that are less competitive but you like more, don't let me stop you!
Obviously there's not going to be as in depth analysis for armies you don't actively play, so I'll expand on the ushabti thing.
If we're adding in armies of infamy (and we are, because those trolls are garbage without the troll horde), we need to talk about mortuary cult and how it impacts the units.
First up, resing units; priests get +1, meaning you can bring back 5 wounds on these guys from just your general. Resing in general, imo, easily makes up for no reroll on the Regen, and the reliability of bringing back two models from general+bsb really pushes it to a frustration point.
Second, draining wounds to power spells; you can do it to ushabti and sling out spells super reliably. Transform that LVL 1 into a LVL 4; send out spirit vortex at a +7 (or 9).
Third, the rest of the magic synergy. You generally three wizards in that list, and if you've got a bunch of wizards and a bunch of ushabti, you'll be taking cursed blades for rerolling 1s to hit. If you're taking lots of casters, then you're taking at least one casket for another +1 to cast/bound per. That also means you'll have light of protection for a 6+ ward and blanket -1 to be hit.
So those ushabti are really going to: be hitting on 4s rerolling 1s with greatbows; be -1 to hit with a 5+, 6+, 6+; be healed usually around 7 wounds per turn if they're focussed; powering up the casting super hard.
Oh and their Regen isn't ignored by flaming attacks.
Easily top of S.
Nurglings are absolutely far above your assessment, and you really need to give them some respect. You mentioned rat swarms and how they die easily. Nurglings have 4 additional layers of defence above them (reroll 6s to hit, Toughness 3 on a swarm, 5+ ward, 6+ regen) and 40% more wounds. On top of that, they have poisoned attacks so will pull the odd wound off of things they have no business fighting. They are 6.5 points per wound. You can run demonolpgy with them for a cute 24” move in any direction with skirmish. They cause fear.
I run 2 units of 4, which is 56 wounds for 360 core points in 2 units. Your core can be unkillable slime and furies, which might compete for strongest overall core in the game. Then you fill out with GUO, Soul Grinder, Flies and Beasts as needed. Mono nurgle is incredibly powerful, and that’s not counting including off theme demons to fix gaps in your game plan.
I support troll supremacy.
Where would you put Skin Wolves on this list now?
A tier maybe? I like them, there's some limiting factors to them but I think they're a solid unit to slot into a list or to build around
@@CloseOrder how would you build around? I have 6 and love them.
A Daemonolgy caster on Daemonic Mount.
Can't Skirmish, but puts them at 4 attacks S5 AP-1 base before picking an upgrade or rolling frenzy etc
1:40 and no timestamps 😂
Feel free to volunteer yourself for the free labour 👍
Time stamps - or doing the units in the order shown would be nice :)