Beautiful video. Hands down could rival any of the big names in terms of depth, proof, and theme centric rationality. I think you've hit several nails in the head. Looking forward to your thoughts on the title of consort. I think it is devoid of romantic implication. Just an intangible god paired with a physical lord in the realm.
@@shy221 it can't be normally put this way in political sence too😅 For example, in DA: Origins you could be a consort of Anora if you play for male noble human. But you couldn't do the same if you were a female)
I think the reason why people associate it with its romantic connotations is that, up until the Tarnished Lord, Marika had children with every consort/Elden Lord before then, and you also marry Ranni in order to become her consort, as she arguably ascends to a kind of godhood of her own. It could mean either thing.
@henrikhumle7255 I get that characters speak fondly of each other, but i dont get any sexual references. They exhault each other, flatter each other, but never comment about desire. (The prince of lothric and his brother, i believe, get the same bad wrap) Everything in the story suggests to me that Marika doesn't even give birth in a way that we would know as natural. I believe consort is just about the promise and binding of wills for one to do the will of the other. God being intangible and the consort being physically in the world. I'm just saying mogh was never a moghlester because he wasn't trying to fulfill carnal desires by stealing him.
Sometimes I think it’s better to leave certain things unanswered. Thats what has always made these games so entertaining. The ambiguity of certain things is what allows for these games to be speculated about years after release. I find that a lot of times in media, the mystery is better than the answers. That’s how games like Dark Souls 1 can have their lore still be speculated on years and years after release. You have enough answers to feel satisfied in what you know while also having enough mystery to keep you looking deeper. That’s apart of the reason why a manga/anime like One Piece can last so long. It never answers too much but doesn’t ignore questions we have. The mystery around certain characters and events build up naturally throughout the story. When One Piece ends, there will still be a ton we don’t actually know concretely.
I think I disagree with your reading of Miquella in particular. I think Miquella's story is about how he ends up repeating his mother's mistakes in trying to rectify them. I think this becomes especially clear if you compare him to Ranni, who is his antitype. The world under the Golden Order is divided in half, one which is embraced by light and one which is abandoned in shadow. Ranni's age of stars universalizes the latter: her age embraces fear, doubt, and loneliness and makes it a universal condition. Miquella by contrast wants to embrace the whole in light, and as such has to discard St. Trina, who represents his fear, doubt, and love, which are together analogues for freedom. His unalloyed gold is not a perfect mixture of death and life, but a purer form of life (and hence gold). This purer form of gold is the gold described in the Minor Erdtree incantation: it is the kindness of gold, without Order. Miquella's age would be one which embraces in light everything which Order abandoned in shadow. But this is ultimately a one-sided vision, which compromises the freedom of anyone who would submit it, as least as much as Order compromised the kindness of gold. Hence what St. Trina says about Godhood being Miquella's prison. His "acceptance of the whole of it" is actually the destruction of everything associated with darkness, including freedom.
Completely agree, especially about Ranni. Look at Leda in comparison to Blaidd. Leda goes mad and tries to prevent us from stopping Miquella. Blaidd goes mad and is forced to try and prevent us from helping Ranni. It even goes down to the way we interact with them. Leda and Blaidd can work as guides towards the player following Miquella and Ranni respectively. In the same respect, they become companions that will change locations throughout your journey. Talk to Leda after killing Mohg to continue Miquella’s mission. Talk to Blaidd after killing Radahn to continue Ranni’s mission.
@@ThiollierStTrina Please wait for my follow up video where I'll spend a very long time structuring and exploring Miquella and Radahn. You might have a different feeling when I lay my full arguments. Much love.
My understanding of Marika is that she and her people came to the Lands Between on the giant coffins, most of them having putrescence, rotting flesh melded for ages, and the survivors were the shamans, Marika included. They meld nicely in flesh because of their proximity with death and having to live with it for who knows how long in the endless sea. The hornsent dicovered them and their melding flesh, being perfect for their jar saint project, they used them up, one by one, at least the ones who remained in the village until it was Marika's turn. And they did it, she became a Saint, filled with the souls and their power, keeping her consciousness due to her bloodline perks of melding flesh. The hornsent thought she was truly the saint they've desired all this time, but we know that rancour is a powerful emotion, and they saw the one who they've "blessed" with sainthood bringing ruin to them as a betrayal, she bedded with their divine only to smite them down.
I personally think that the shamans arrived through some unexplainable mechanism to the Lands Between, not by arriving physically. The sign by the entrance to the Hinterlands describes the shamans as being "spirited away". There are places known to be physically detached from the Lands Between such as the Shadow Lands, the spirit world, and likely also whichever realm the Outer Gods operate from. With this knowledge wouldn't be far fetched to think that the shamans were spirited away from a different realm to the Lands Between
Marika being an artificial construct makes so much sense in the long run. One of my first questions years ago when I beat the game the first time was why Marika/Radagon looks cracked and broken like pottery rather than a rotting corpse. With the lore of her beginning and the origins of the jars within the Hornsent’s culture worship makes so many things line up.
@@topdeckhelix8450 I would say that Marika is a special shaman in general but I would not necessarily say that Hornsent has helped her in divinity per se. I view jar experiments as a facade of sorts. Hornsent's theoretically strong but weak spirituality in practice. Marika became a god with conquering and took it by force with elden beast alongside her. She just needed some luck and his lover at the time, Radagon's help to create a false hope for the Hornsent. Just enough of a hope to ensure her survival. Giving her enough time to retaliate with Godfrey, Elden Beast and Messmer in general. (Also put the fire giants and Placidusax timeline into perspective)
Tbh i thought the god of the world whoever it is would take on the form of the Elden ring, and with the mesmer phase 2 fights i thought that would explain the eyes (soreseals) And the way they fused would be bc marika is a shaman via sainthood and jarred up But if there was a jar in their areas this would support but im too lazy to look lool
The jars near the minor erd trees held the corpses of failed Numen saints that Marika revived using the nectar of life from the trees themselves. These bodies were later repurposed as Erdtree Guardians. Their dress is very similar to Marika and the grandmother in the tree of the Shaman village, as well as the decapitated Shamans found around the Shadow lands. She regarded them with nostalgia and utmost reverence. This role is very in line with the nature of the Shamans/Numens. They manifested their power through the faithful care and symbiosis of trees.
Fantastic video as always. Always insightful knowledge and observations in your content. I would like to mention one, tiny thing though: A lot of people seem to think that the “grandmother” referred to by marika’s braid is literally marika’s grandmother. But I think it’s fair to say it’s actually marika’s mother, as Marika is always referred to as the “mother”.
Great video! This does also have huge implications for the mending runes/game endings: Goldmask blamed the fickleness of the gods - i.e. Marika selfishly seeking vengence against the hornsent, aswell as all of her behaviours resulting from the trauma she sustained. The dung eater rune prevents unnatural rebirth through the erdtree and gradually returns the Lands Between to its native inhabitants - people with horns. The mending rune of the death prince unifies life and death by allowing life within death. All of them touch an aspect of what you explained in the video, but none address the whole thing. Repairing the elden ring without a mending rune means that things will remain mostly stagnant (except for destined death being returned). Ranni's ending is a reboot and the pursuit of an alternative source of order, but could be destined to fail, because it relies on the moon alone without also incorporating the sun, making it fundamentally lopsided/unbalanced although it does away with Marika's original sin. And the frenzy flame ending just purges everything because there is no fixing something that shouldn't exist in the first place. It's a dilemma, since none of the options deals with all issues and the frenzy ending destroys existence itself. Seemingly, there is no right choice.
Great video. Ya know, I'm starting to think that the Crucible was referring to the jars: where all life was blended together (after being chopped up and stuffed into the jar). That said, it seems to me that the Hornsent were always stuff their own people into the jar. Jar'ing didn't work until they discovered the Shaman people who's flesh harmoniously melded with others. My guess is that they were stuffing hornsent, human, dragons, etc. into the jars but they would not meld until they introduced shaman flesh.
Maybe that's why Marika's jar experiment contained hornscent innards and having these in her composition ended up causing her first children with Godfrey to be born Omens.
I suspect Marika was a Numen, Radagon was a Nox. They were combined together into one. And then Godfrey became their Lord. The specialness is in Marika's Numenness. Radagon gets shed like St. Trina, but is used as a valuable asset instead of discarded, probably so Marika can travel away from the Erd Tree I'd imagine. Then they come back together to play Dr. Jekyll and Ms. Hyde,
Can you elaborate on why you think that Radagon was just Marikas husband at the start, especially compared to St Trina who is explicitly a part of Miquella and not their own person beforehand? Also how did you imagine their "illusion" (Radagon fooling the Hornsent) working out exactly?
@@AdamPW First of all, Messmer is born at this point in time so Radagon definitely had a relationship with Marika at this point. You can interpret him as a lover rather than husband which is more formal. Both are fine by me. As to fooling hornsent, they regard Marika as "being betrayed by her". That constitutes some level of trust towards Marika. At least for a while, their hopes were pooled towards her. Grandam's item description makes it clearer how much betrayed she feels. Also, you need to explain how conveniently Marika was the sole survivor of the jar experiments? It doesnt make sense to say she did it by luck. But if she fooled hornsent to believe she was the saint they were looking for, her safety would be all but guaranteed. And Radagon as her other self was crucial to that illusion of hermaphrodite sainthood. The conjointment of the moon and sun. Of male and female. Does it make sense
@@Ontos99 Not sure if I misunderstand something in the video but it sounds to me like you said that Radagon and Marika were not one originally and only really joined each other as one body way later in Leyndell etc? Because to me the parallel of Miquella and St Trina points to the fact that Marika and Radagon were from the start one and Radagon was just an aspect of Marika like St Trina for Miquella. I know the often cited line "O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self." is often seen as proof that Radagon was not always Marika but I understand it that Radagon was simply in the process of replacing Marika as the God. What is your timeline on when Messmer was born? I thought Messmer was born after Marika became a God. Also the line "The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage." sounds to me that Messmer must have come after Mohg and Morgott? Btw, how do you believe the Fingers factored in all of this (considering how close the Shaman Village is to the Finger Ruins and also how Ymir talks about Mariks being guided by the Two Fingers)?
@@Ontos99 May I suggest an alternative: Marika was a success, but Radagon was split off from her as parts of the same jar. Messmer being a child of Radagon was also a result of alchemical combination, indicating that they were really the Red King and the White Queen. The combination was a reference to Mercurius. Mercurius was represented by the Caduceus, the twin serpent staff. He also had another form: The Abyss/Void. Messmer had the Abyssal Serpent inside him. Aside Messmer, children of Marika and Radagon always have elements of duality inside them, of Night and Day (Melina's gloam eye), of Death and Rebirth (Malenia), of male and female (Miquella). So I'm assuming Radagon and Marika were two parts of the same Jar Saint.
@@AdamPW First of all, there is no way Messmer was born after Mohg or Morgott. Messmer is PROBABLY Marika's very first child and she had him as a shaman in her village from Radagon. Messmer being born after the golden order doesnt fit with multitude of item descriptions and events. Yes. As you said I interpret Radagon to converge with Marika into a single body at that bed chamber quote you've given. Marika is urging to "become one" to Radagon and then goes on to birth Miquella and Malenia which is why they are specifically regarded as "single god born" while Messmer or Melina are not. Furthermore, I think people dont understand why Miquella has his "other self St Trina" to begin with. Precisely because he was "single god born" he also has St. Trina with himself in a single body. Just like Radagon and Marika was at the time they birthed them. That doesnt mean Radagon and Marika was "initially" in a single body because we see Miquella divest himself of Trina! Do you understand the logic? Basically the bed chamber quote is the first time these 2 bodies converged into a single body. I'll talk about the fingers in a separate episode because these videos are getting too long and dense. I hope these explanations helped a little.
@@Ontos99 I see, I see 🤔 Do you remember which events/descriptions point to Messmer being one of the first children? I agree that he definitely has very strong first-born energy :D
4:15 Unknown Origin is a Miyazaki catchphrase Unknown = *X* (cross) Origin = *O* (ring) Like the crosshair when you aim a bow It's a metaphor for Maya and Atma (respectively); with their intersection symbolising the Logos (the principle that the Rebus, Erdtree and Elden Ring are based on) "In the beginning, everything was *in opposition* to the Erdtree" Versus "In the beginning, there was the Logos" (John 1:1) Compare Malika (Marika) and Mikala (Miquella) with the word, 'Kalima', the Arabic equivalent of Logos (see also Kalameet v.s. Kalimat)
Great connection with Bayle but remember Godwyn was there. The red lightening is to symbolize the betrayal of the dragons. So any dragon using red lightening betrayed that old order. I feel as though the godskin nobles also helped Becasue it never says they’re against them. They used the power to kill “gods” until they got to ahead of themselves. The heighest ranking Nobel wears a snake skin. So it can be argued he skinned the primordial snake. The snake Mesmer uses in the second form is white. But it can also be viewed as Marika covering her bases. That also might be why she kills Godwyn. Seems as though anyone with any history that dates that far back she wanted to get rid of. Miquella was hanging around Godwyn a lot. Dang I felt Marika needed a strong motive to be a god to represent an order that she never believed in. The course of the game we find out why she did it and how she wants to rid the land of the greater will. Which is good because the games lets us choose to either get rid of a “higher” power or establish a new “higher power”. I feel as though Dung eater represents hornsent coming back. He is driven mad by the visions and the activity the hornsent did out of “religion”. A lot of actions are seen as a “blessing”.
This interpretation of the early events makes me think even more about the Gloam-eyed Queen. She had the other rune, the Death rune. How did it cone into her possession? When? It seems like she was Numen as well and maybe ascended soon after Marika. In that case, she either took what was abandoned by Marika to avoid conflict or Marika herself granted her the other rune. So, there is a possibility that Marika didn't reject death, she just wanted it to not be around her specifically. The Gloam-eyed Queen then had space to rule, time to get a husband and breed children. She also took care of the Gate, executing any new god who came out of there with her children's help. And then something went wrong. The Erdtree reached maturity but the remaining Numen grew suspicious of the Two Fingers. They didn't trust the new Order, especially after meeting the astrologers who new of their mother. They contacted the Gloam-eyed Queen and with her help made a special dagger which they used to stab Matyr. They failed. And as punishment, Marika exiled them underground where they built cities and nurtured a plan to make a god of their own. But in attempt to construct a new Gate of Divinity, they almost ended up extinct. The GEQ on the other hand was defeated, her rune taken. It is possible that Melina played a great part in this. Whether she was the GEQ herself at one point but charmed and imprisoned to serve the Order or she housed her spirit sealed. Either way, she cannot remember anyting due to Marika's meddling with her memory. Yet, even without memory she still found her original path, brought destined death back and burned the Erdtree. The catalyst was us making her realize how hurt her older brother was by their mother. But she had her suspicions even before that, as she witnessed the fruits of all Marika's decitions which remained in the land for eternity. There are debates around the reason behind the shattering. A popular theiry is that Marika couldn't bare the loss of a beloved child. But after this video, I guess the reason was that she couldn't bare any loss in general. She build an Order of Life, and still some was slaughtered in a way that couldn't be reversed. So what is even the point then? She made all that, and stolill didn't get what she wanted. Melina played great part in fighting the Frenzied Flame, a task later picked up by her successor in spirit - Trina. One sought to eradicate the FF, whereas the other believed it could coexist with life if a proper approach is taken. Melina, when alive, was killing those who carried FF because it nullified the point of life and death, and it presented a threat to spirits, which were in shamans' care. But she also carried out assassinations on behalf of the remaining Numens (that is why she was taught the secret incantation). She was the link between Numens and the GEQ. St. Trina, on the other hand, was keeping the FF from growing uncontrollably through lullabies, proving that even the FF is part of natural order, and that great pain can be cured through systematic care.
Totally agree with dualistic nature of pot saints. The omen aren’t really cursed just new hornsent, Marika can pop out all types of children because she is many things, explaining the random red hair radagon has as well. I believe the lamenters mask is a saint as well, and they tossed it because of the red hair reminding them of the fire giants that haunt their dreams
It was mentioned that Mesmer Gaius and Radahn were friends and sort of older brothers to Radahn: Gaius and Radahn were good rivals in their youth, and this sorcery is a product of their friendly competition, Both were as elder brothers to the lion, and both were cursed from birth. In spite of, or perhaps because of this very reason, Gaius was both Messmer's friend and the leader of his men. And then Rellana was given a blessing by Renalla to fight alongside Mesmer to fight the war against the hornsent. So probably Marika and Radagon went separated paths much earlier.
The only issue with this logic would arise from the fact that Melina was born at the foot of the Erdtree. Just like Messmer, she was Radagon's child. If Radagon and Marika broke up close to the Fire giant conflict (which birthed the Erdtree, see Smithing stone 7 description) this leaves enough time for Melina to be born very early into her golden order. Radagon's last 'seed' of fire before their paths reconverged with the Renalla/Radagon - Godfrey/Marika drama much later into the timeline.
Excellent video with solid analysis. Thanks for putting this together, has given me much to think about. The part about the hornsent trying to create a hermaphrodite saint needed a bit more explanation and deeper dive into the connection/comparison of the goal of the alchemical rebis. Not because you didn’t do a good job at explaining it, but because I believe that to be pivoting evidence for your claim and thus, if someone is unfamiliar with the concept, may miss your entire point altogether. Overall, amazing work mate, keep it up!
If you believe the cut content and concepts, Miquella was god of bounty. Under him everything will prosper and multiply. And after ditching the humility and love you can see how this will be the crueler version even compared to Marika’s stagnation. He would make everything kept multiplying, his world would soon become cesspool of overpopulated mass and he has lost the ability to have empathy to his subjects’ suffering. They will eventually raised against him out of extreme suffering.
Of all the multitude of souls "lore" content creators, I believe you are the closest to the true meaning of the games. It's obvious to me that Miyazaki is heavily initiated in escotericism, alchemy, and hermeticism. We will never get the full picture, that's the intention. I've been waiting for your videos specifically on sote. Great job.
@@FunTownUS123 I do agree that alchemy is an extremely strong and prevalent theme in Elden ring which is simply ignored to be unrelated at worst and misunderstood at best by the greater lore community. Leading to in my eyes, sub par analysis/understanding of Miyazaki's vision. Furthermore we are talking about GRRM here. The song of "Ice and Fire" "Marika and Radagon" "Numens and Fire Giants" "Female and Male" "Mercury and Sulfur" "Moon and Sun" The thematic connections are extremely strong with alchemy and not choosing to integrate it within one's analysis will surely miss themes and connections very much intended by the developers. Thank you for your kind words
I am only halfway through this video but I have to say I get why people are saying this seems like head canon etc but I feel like you're making really good arguments that are largely supported by other creators like Queelag and Smough Town so your points like...make more sense with the added context of the countless other Elden Ring lore content I've already consumed lol
Fantastic video as always! I thoroughly enjoyed your focus on the importance of the spiral; as it can represent a merging of life (sun) & death (moon) to form rebirth (eclipse). Overall outstanding perspective & interpretations! You mentioned that Radagon is Messmer's father, which makes sense given Messmer's features/attributes; yet I am still left puzzled by the union of Marika & Radagon. I would love to hear more about your perspective on Radagon's origin, you mentioned a relation to the fire giants. Also what do you make of the discarded snake skin found in Bonny Village?
Hey Elden Tales. As to the shedded snake skin, Messmer has completely gone berserk like his 2nd phase, shed his skin by burning intensely (like what happened in the 2nd phase) to burn the Bonny village with him. The abyssal serpent did it. These people who tortured her mother's people surely in his eyes deserved no sympathy. So he surrendered to its wrath and this is probably why Marika gave him his eye to reduce his tendencies to go berserk. To control the abyssal serpent. I'll explain Fire giant origins of Radagon much better when I make my origin timeline video for both Radagon and Marika. I hope you enjoy that video. Thank you so much. Glad you enjoyed my analysis. My next video is focusing on not just alchemy but psychology of various characters before I make my conclusive arguments on what the ending means along with Miquella's ultimate intentions. I plan to make it my best video. I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. I should release it in a few days.
@@Ontos99 Thank you for taking the time to reply, your perspective always interests me & provides wonderful insights. I look forward to your next video about Miquella's ultimate intentions & your eventual video covering Marika & Radagon's timeline! The time & effort you put into your work is always evident.
@@EldenTales Just to be thorough, that snake skin can also be one of the ingredients hornsent used to add into the jars but again, the interpretation here depends on various vantage points. I view Messmer's pushback to be more thematically congruent with what we've seen in the 2nd phase but this is another possible interpretation of the snake skin.
@@Ontos99 I absolutely agree interpretations can vary greatly depending on your perspective. I understand what you're saying about Messmer too; although I have this strange feeling that the skin connects to Eiglay in Volcano Manor, the only other location where we find the shed skin of a large white serpent. Eiglay, the ancient snake deity, once had a religion associated with Mt. Gelmir, where they practiced ritualistic sacrifice (Serpent-God's Curved Sword). Located at the alter of the Temple of Eiglay there are spirals engraved into the columns, these spirals match the architecture of Enir-Ilim & Belurat. Within the temple are statues of winged serpents & within the DLC we can find the Serpent Crest Shield that features an engraving of a winged serpent, the shield excels at guarding against fire as well. We know that Rykard traveled to a foreign land in his youth which is where he met Tanith. Long ago, when Rykard first set eyes on Tanith, she was working as a dancer in a foreign land. Soon, he made her his consort (Consort's Mask). Tanith is also associated with the item Dancer's Castanets which states castanets used by dancers from foreign lands; the passionate dance comprises no seductiveness, but merely a dignified beauty. It's possible that Tanith was once a Dancer of Ranah, a dancer from a foreign land. Zullie the Witch in a video about the DLC shared how similar the face of Tanith is to the Dancer of Ranah. The Dancer of Ranah in the Southern Nameless Mausoleum drops the dancer's set, the hood states that the dance of Ranah is one of burning passion, and the most passionate dancers never allow their fiery dance to end, losing even their names as they dance on. To see the passion fade is to see the dancer's flame extinguished. The dancer's set is colored red to match their fiery dance. The fact that the dance is described as fiery & that Tanith ended up in Volcano Manor seems to be a connection as well. I wondered if Tanith wasn't the only thing Rykard brought back from his visit to the foreign land (Land of Shadow).
@@EldenTales Oh I see what you mean. That is cool but the problem would be Rykard wasn't born yet when this shedded skin was dropped here so although Eiglay in some form might be related, not sure if Rykard or tanith is. If we argue Rykard has travelled to the Land of shadow in his youth and somehow is the reason of this skin, that's a bit random information that doesn't gel with or connect to the Bonny village, don't you think? I'll release my Radagon origins and Snakeskin thoughts in an ambitious video in 2 days. Please let me know your thoughts and tell me if you like it.
I have a theory, that the lands of shadow has a bend in time and this bend is so intense that Miqella was able to exploit it by both finding the shadow realm and also waiting for us to do our part.
I think the only question about all this I have is the timeline. We know from Melina’s words at a church of Marika that she directly told Radagon “Thou art yet to become me. Thou art yet to become a god.” This confirms Radagon and Marika were not always one but I don’t understand how they had Messmer before Morgott Mohg and Godwyn. It’s stated specifically in Gaius remembrance that Messmer was an older brother to Radahn but does that just mean as a half older brother? Messmer had to have been born before Godwyn Mohg and Morgott but they were shackled underneath so that means the erdtree was completely created by then? Then when in the world did Radagon get with Rennala? Does this also mean that it was only after Radagon and Marika were conjoined that Miquella and Malenia were born? I need Miyazaki and George R.R. Martin to release that book Martin wrote that serves as the basis for the entire game which was said to have been created by the request of From Soft because they had planned to only create a game based off the events of this book.
@@Not____Applicable I'll explain the entire timeline from the begining of history and the elden lord finale for both Marika and Radagon in a full "origin" story in a single episode. I'll explain all the details and share my (hopefully) interesting timeline. But the next episode will focus on Miquella and Radahn.
I was skeptical for a lot of this video, but if the conflict is what you speculate from the in-game evidence, it makes more sense that the Gloam-Eyed Queen would try to retaliate against Marika and the Erdtree as well. Marika the Eternal would be an affront to the concept of death that was Meant to be balanced with life, Not sealed away by it. The Radagon and Marika stuff makes a bit more sense but is still super confusing to me, but after hearing a satisfying reason for the GEQ to go to war I was happy enough to follow along with a more open mind lol. Hope you make a lot more videos about whatever you find from the DLC that helps make sense of the base game, because that's what I'm most concerned about. The DLC itself was mostly self-contained if you ignore context of the Lands Between, so nothing new was hard to understand. The only lie to that last sentence I typed was that I never considered Radagon and Marika in a pot together? But that would explain a lot lol.
I like to think that the Hornsent actually used flesh from every race to create saints such as Marika. IMO this would explain her children’s afflictions - they each have an aspect that was used to create her. Possible evidence for this could be the snake skin found in Bonny village - which may have been partly used in jars (hence Messmer and Rykard). I’m not sure what race would provide Miquella’s affliction though… Excellent video btw - probably the best dlc one I’ve seen.
I think the bonny village butchers were tasked with putting criminals of their society and shamans together in the jars, that way they could sanctify the criminals. As for the snake skin, Marika placed a seal in Messmer's eye so I dare assume there was a point in time where Messmer did not have this seal. Perhaps he in the form of the base serpent shed his skin before? What I also find interesting is that Messmer theme song in game is very similar to Radagon's, perhaps a hint at his lineage, beside Marika of course. And regarding Radagon, perhaps unifying male and female was the point of the jar saint holy project, and Marika happened to be a success. Even though their beloved success betrayed them in the end.
Rykard wasn't afflicted, he willingly gave himself to the serpent in merging ritual to grow stronger during shattering. He is a kid of Radagon and Renalla. While Mesmmer was born with affliction and was able to shapeshift since birth.
@@rafsandomierz5313 there’s a bit of lore that states even before Rykard let himself get consumed by the serpent, he was rather serpentine. Granted that’s not necessarily an affliction
no jokes, and no disrepect, you have 2270 subscribers your video is way to good for those numbers, so indepth, you made the incromrpehensible comprehensible for me you made it make sense, thank you for this story ( i understood the gist of it but not how marikas motives actually were humanlike and made sense) THANK YOU
@@noahmei7200 tomorrow night tune in to my channel because we'll focusing on the ending of the DLC. A very in depth lore video is coming. Thank you for your kind words
This channel deserves more subs. That said Radagon is not Messmen father, Messmer is flame related, Radagon is weak to fire. Instead, Radagon was probably inside the jar with Marika. Or he was an hornsent or there was a third hornsent inside the jar. That would explain why some of Marika's son are omen: it's literally the hornsent recessive genes coming out. And she was probably considered a success giving her access to the top of the tower. Then she betrayed the hornsent killing their god\king and becoming a god herself, with the help of the two fingers
I doubt if the stone coffins brought the Marika’s and her people into the shadow realm. I think the coffins are the resting places for dead gods. Thus housing their ghosts. Perhaps, that’s why we find grate ghost gloveworts on the stone coffins a.k.a ships in the dlc.
I think marika is a perfected jar saint, the alternative seems a bit too convoluted. her and radagon were two former people placed in the same jar and thus became the same. I could also see all of her children being other aspects that were placed in her jar, that she was only able to remove through passing the aspect on to a child since they would be the only remaining shamans. This part doesnt have much backing just a personal theory. I also find godrick extremely interesting now as it seems he knows about his shaman blood and its ability to meld with other things thus the grafting began. Same goes for Rykard. And godwyn post mortem. Lastly, the gloam eyed queen and base serpent must have been an obstacle for her ascension. Since it seems like when they were defeated they were sealed (or grafted) into melina and messmer respectively.
It's a very entertaining story! I can totally see the underlying alchemical background to all the characters and especially Marika and her "divinity" as a male/female being. I personally don't think Radagon and her are separate people though, and never have been. I think the "being" Marika is the anticipated result of the jar experiments. The crucible, the intertwined spiral, personified. And the inherent duality confined to one person is the basis of her divinity. I don't think they've ever been husband and wife, and I don't think Messmer has been born before she became a god. The fact all her children suffer from supernatural afflictions, some sorts of dualities and varying degrees of "impurity" (speaking from an (al)chemical standpoint), is a consequence of her being a "dual being", meaning they were all born after the fact. I'd go further with the alchemical references, since the lore and themes of godhood focus so much on gold, and creating gold. I think Marika represents the philosopher's stone. And her children represent elements of her own creation. None as pure as her, which proofs the flaw of it all and which might've been what caused Marika to lose faith and come up with a plan to tear it all down.
I honestly don’t see the Jar Saint brand as being Marika’s+Radagon’s seals, and both of those would only become their symbols after her ascension, since they represent to her crucifixtion and fundamentalism respectively
I think you have it right but backwards. I feel like marika was a jar saint, but everything you see in the game is kind of fragments of her/his history. The world is like the collective unconscious of everything that went into the divinity jar.
I really thought we would've gotten more of a "crucible" theme in the DLC. Especially in Enir Ilim. Because like you said the hornsent are very spiritual people that worshipped the crucible. So I started to assume that we would get some more important information on the crucible. It may not be important but it is something that I found pretty fascinating.
I think the crucible being a slightly esoteric theme is very much intended. I'm personally satisfied with spiral motifs and general representation of it. I believe most people were disappointed to not see the Gloam Eyed Queen which I said she would probably not be focused on in the DLC before the game released when everyone was hyping it up with 'godskins' and whatnot. It is very clear in my mind that Melina was the former GEQ and that leaves the timeline post-Erdtree. Not pre-Erdtree which this DLC focuses on. We even saw these gravebirds which are reminiscent of the twinbird and deathbirds in the base game. The ghostflames which pre-dated the Erdtree was also fairly prevalent. So I'm not super disappointed in that. I would only like to learn a little more on Placidusax's fled god. That's my only thing.
@@Ontos99 yeah I guess so. Thinking about it I'm way more disappointed that we got nothing about the gloam eyes queen. I did get to learn more about the crucible in this DLC so I'll take what I get 😅. I definitely learned a lot more watching your video.
Umm, we have no reason to believe that Bayle was acting on behalf of Messmer or the Golden Order in general or that Messmer had any relationship with Bayle at all. The presence of undead dragons and Messmer's forces attacking them implies the opposite, really. In fact, the Ancient Dragons would have never made peace with Marika's empire if it had been allied with Bayle considering the utter hatred Placidusax feels for him to the point of founding an entire movement based on hunting his kin and eating their hearts. As we can see from the Jagged Peak Drake fighting another lesser dragon and the Jagged Peak being littered with dragon corpses, Bayle and his direct descendants are just warlike and violent in general and he challenged Placidusax simply because he felt he was the stronger one who deserved to rule. You also conspicuously left out any involvement of Metyr and her two fingers who majorly influenced Marika on what her new empire should be like and who presumably told her to merge herself with the Elden Ring to obtain godhood. The Golden Order becoming a monotheistic religion that shuns and excludes any other forms of divinity can be traced back to their desire to re-establish contact with the Greater Will by appeasing them in this way.
I think it makes more sense for Marika to have divested herself of Radagon when she was to become a god in the same way Miquella did Radagon is known to be a devout Order fundamentalist. Maybe Marika rid herself of Radagon as a way to remove the fanatical part of her indoctrination from the hornsent so she could rule without being blinded by a single belief
@@TitanAnon Although Centered Tarnished argues for this angle, I fail to see the reason why Marika would divests herself of her flesh (which already assumes they were in a single body with Radagon) to birth her golden order. We know the reason why both Miquella and Ranni divested their flesh. To be free from Marika's DNA and consequently the Greater will's control. No such burden exists for Marika. She became the dominant theocracy in the realm by force. By sheer conquest and crusades of various beings. The hornsent, Fire giants, Dragons you name it. Just as the protection of the erdtree states, by conquest did the Erdtree became the embodiment of order. Marika cant divests herself of Radagon at the birth of her golden order. They were in 2 different bodies already and they will not reconverge into a single body until "the bedchamber" quote where Marika specifically urges Radagon "to become one" "to become a god". Which is precisely why Miquella and Malenia are born of a "single god" while Messmer and melina are not. These are complex subjects that requires me to set a strong foundation. Please stay tuned for my Marika and Radagon origin timeline video.
@@Ontos99 I don't think you have to divest your flesh to divest your other self. We see that with miquella as he slowly removes pieces of himself, saint Trina included (miquellas equivalent of radagon)
And in Marika´s journey, Marika was guided by her two fingers, who in turn, are guided by their broken mother. We know they dont care what face the order takes, as long it is order. Or maybe thats the wrong message, Mydir just knows that the world needs an order, but it doesnt know what order is the perfect one, and the greater will is gonne with the answer, so she just tries whatever it works.
Super solid video, you are saying stuff I have been thinking that I haven't seen others fully submit to, like the hornsent sacrifices at the gate of divinity is marikas doing. Others are saying this is a structure made by the hornsent, but I think you are right on this. One thing I disagree with is the stuff on Radi and Mari, I think it is pretty clear due to no shirt and no breasts that the DLC trailer is showing Marika and Radagon already merged.
I'll modify that part of the headcanon in my next video. You'll like the final version to say the least ;)) I will release it in a few days. Don't forget to subscribe to not miss it. I wanna hear your thoughts. Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it
I think Godfrey was there when Marika ascended to Godhood by walking through the gate of dvinity, Godfrey probably fought the fight for Marika. Probably very likely to Miquella and his lord Radahn. And after that, Godfrey was sent out to fight Marika's enemies, so who knows what Marika did in the meantime. And with so many hints in the game that Radagon is Messmer's father and Messmer serving as an older brother to Radahn, I suppose Marika and Radagon may have been one and the same at the very beginning. But of course there's the whole quote where Marika tells Radagon that he's yet to become one with her. And I guess it's not very certain either if Messmer is older than the golden lineage, Mohg, Morgott and Godwyn. But I'm not sure if there's any info on that. Though I do think that after Godfrey served his purpose by ridding the world of Marika's potential enemies, the grace left his eyes and he and his men were banished from the Lands Between by Marika and her people. Only to return as a last resort...
I like this reading! I actually didn’t notice the distinction between the bodies of Enir-Ilim-that was a particularly great observation. Keep up the good work, I’m looking forward to the next part
I do not know what these terms mean but I always do my best to improve my work a little bit each video. Thank you for the suggestions and I'll try to have a better sound quality in the next video
Really well made video! I think it sheds a lot of light into the origins of Marika better than others have. Quick question, when you say around 23:57 that Messmer helped to seal the fire giants forge, don't you mean Godfrey? Asking because you say just before that that Messmer uses Bayle to help fight the former dragon lord Placidusax while Godfrey is used to bring down the fire giants to create an environment where the erdtree can grow and fluorish...so why is Messmer suddenly helping with sealing the forge as well? Is there any evidence of this?
No. You heard it right. Messmer is sealing the flames of the forge, not Godfrey. Only the fireborn can interact with the Fire Giant's forge which is precisely why his little sister, Melina re-activates the Forge in the base game to burn the Erdtree. Messmer sealed the forge of the Fire Giants at the order of Marika, while Melina 'unsealed' it for us to gain entry to the Erdtree. Both are demigods who 'bore the vision of fire' My arguments and interpretations are almost always thematic or strongly reinforced by sub-text. Thank you for kind words. Let me know if you want me to elaborate on something else.
Well Done, We’ll Put Together! I Believe Marika IS the Woman In Manse Castle Painting. She Went There To Learn About The Horsnsent Faith/Divinity, SEDUCED Midra and became the Lady Of The Church (She Has 2 Golden Braids In The Painting) Together Marika And Midra Discovered And Made Contact With METYR (there’s cloths in the church covering and hiding finger pillars, the same we see in the finger ruins, the tunnel fingers to Metyrs arena) Soon After This, Marika Was Given Power And A Mission By Metyr or Her Own 2 Fingers And LEFT… She Stole The Sacred Rite Scroll Along With All Of Midras Information She Squeezed Out Of Midra, Who Is The Leader Of The Hornsent Religion At The Time. She ABANDONED AND BETRAYED Midras (The Seduction And Betrayl The Trailer Spoke Of) She Then Continued Her Travels To The Spiral Tree/Divine Gate, But Before Going She Made One Last Stop In Her Village And Placed The Gold Erttree Spell As Well As CUT OFF ONE OF HER BRAIDS. She Then Continued To Become A God. MEANWHILE! During This Time! Midras Was Becoming So Overwhelmed With Grief, Anger, MADNESS, That He Ended Up Summoning Something Else From Metyr…. The 3 Fingers!!! During This Despair A New Church Lady Of The Church/Nun Was Hired/Appointed To Help Midra Quell His Madness, Nanaya! (Her Corpse Has Raven BLACK hair, NO BRAIDS. She Is NOT the woman in the painting. Just holding the same position Marika had after Marika left the church. Similar to when u apply for a job and take the previous managers position) Nanaya Helped Him Endure Is Madness But Not Too Long The Inquisition Showed Up And Put Everyone To The Holy Lance. By this time I’m sure Marika was fighting her way up the tower. -Some Hints/Reasonings •Manse Church Painting Flowers, Hinterlands is the only other place where we see so many MULTICOLORED flowers. Also both locations hidden under Shadow Keep. •Marika Was Not One Of The Shaman Put InJars, So Where Did She Go In Order For Her To Return To Find The Village Emtpy?? She Was At Manse Church •HOW Did Marika know what to do or where to go or even what her missions should be?? Metyre along with all of the secret information she manipulated out of Midra (The Leader Of The Religion) Gave Her Enough Info And Power To Begin Her Ascension. •Why does Hornsent Grandam Call Marika A STRUMPET! Because she SEDUCED The Head Of Their Religion! 😲💃 There’s a few others Ginge connecting points too. Can’t remember off the top of my head. But I’m like 99% positive these are the events that happened before Marika walked through the gate! 🤓🤯
If you would have to be a god...what god would you be? Someone like Marika that cared only about herself and gained power just to fulfill her ambitions and goals? A kind and just sovereign that looks over his lands and keeps everything in order? A god of war that would build a powerful army and conquer everyone else to build the strongest nation of the land? Or something completely different?
@@Sargatas I've never thought about it but in general I'm a humanistic person. And I also value individualistic freedom. I'd probably be seen as a relatively fair and just ruler who tries to keep just enough chaos so that "the order" isnt prone to shattering ;)
Excellent analysis, Ontos. Brought up some new points that I had never considered and reinforced a few that have circulated in the community. Slightly unrelated, I continue to find myself a bit too concerned with the physical geography of the land of shadows. For instance, I try to find a way to understand how the stone coffins of the cerulean coast arrived there. I'll add details in a reply to this comment to keep this message shorter, if you're interested in reading some speculation.
My first thought as to the origin of these stone coffins connects to how we see a network of coffins being used for transportation in the ruins of the ancient civilization (Uhl? Uld?) under The Lands Between, that seem to pre-date the Eternal Cities. We also see that these smaller coffins can move via scripts of light, which has since the release of Shadow of the Erdtree, seemingly become a reference to the magic-script-writing capabilities of the smiths of the ancient forges. Given the imagery of the giant stone coffins as boats, and their likely origin in the Uhl civilization, it's fair to speculate that they drifted magically using the smithscript, ending up at the cerulean coast and inside the stone coffin fissure beneath it, where the putrefied flesh is congealing. The visual depiction of a massive underground ocean (the one that can be seen from the ancestral woods next to Nokron) adjacent to the Uhl civilization (my speculated origin of the giant stone coffins) is also reminiscent of methods of reaching the underworld in ancient mythologies. The boat-like form of the stone coffins (as well as the existence of the Tibia Mariners) further cements my speculation that crossing a body of water is part of the passage into the underworld, in this case, the Land of Shadow, where all death ultimately drifts. A key detail is the bull-figurehead on these stone coffins, tying them to the Uhl civilization. The bull is closely associated with Gugalanna in Sumerian mythology, representing the underworld and divine retribution. Sumerian/Babylonian imagery seems to be a common theme among the Uhl civilization. This reinforces the idea that the stone coffins were intended for a journey into the underworld, or a passage for the dead. This naturally leads to the contents of the coffins. I speculate that the coffins contain the dead bodies of first-generation Albinaurics, created before the Eternal Cities, possibly by the Uhl civilization. This goes against my perception of the majority speculation in the community that the albinaurics were all created by the Eternal. Also, the Albinaurics, with their silver blood and tendency to lose the use of their legs, are deeply connected to arcaneness. This arcaneness could be a connection revealing why the putrescence, or specifically, the putrescent knight's remembrance weapon, derives power from arcaneness. The lifeforms in the giant stone coffins are said to be tainted, which harkens back to the fact that albinaurics are considered to be tainted lifeforms, fairly well-cementing the speculation that it is albinaurics in the giant stone coffins. Additionally, I speculate that the spirit plant (ghost glovewort) cultivation by the Eternal Cities, and potentially by the Uhl civilization, could be the method by which Albinaurics are given life. My vision of this process is that the liquid silver metal droplets form the structure of the albinaurics bodies, but the residual spiritual energy that dwells in ghost glovewort, or simply any residual spiritual energy, which seems to be abundant in the underground of the lands between, could form the basis of the life energy that is inserted into the bodies of albinaurics. This too could explain why the albinaurics are seen as tainted. They would essentially have been given residual life energy from the spirits of the dead. Not too far off from Those Who Live in Death, conceptually. If the Uhl civilization did partake in these practices, the ethereal or spirit nature of the Albinaurics' source of life might explain why their legs eventually fade. This fading is reminiscent of the spiritgraves in the land of shadows, which also eventually fade. I speculate that both the spiritgraves and the Albinaurics' blood likely contain the essence of spirits, tying their existence to the life force absorbed from the spirits of the dead. To put it simply, the ripples with which albinaurics are so heavily associated could be the metal droplets being dropped into a body of water containing spirits, possibly the underground ocean next to Nokron. The spirits could then inhabit the metal droplets which form the physical structure of the albinaurics' bodies. Alternatively, the spirits in the ghost glovewort could be used directly in the inserting of spirit energy into the metal droplets. As another new connection, the Albinaurics originate from liquid silver metal droplets, which seem to be a natural progression from the molten liquid metal droplets found in the ruins of the smiths of the ancient forges. The ancient smiths' artifacts, such as the ancient meteoric ore greatsword, also derives strength from arcaneness, similarly to albinaurics, further cementing the speculated connections between the smiths, their light scripts, and the light scripts used by the ancient civilization, as well as between the arcaneness of the ancient smiths and the arcaneness of the albinaurics. From all of this, I think that it is plausible that the Uhl civilization inherited some of the forging and light-scripting techniques of the smiths of the ancient forges. They formed the first generation of Albinaurics from these liquid metal droplets, which are given life through the life energy of spirits, and eventually placed them into the stone coffins which ended up in the Cerulean Coast. Unrelated to all of the above is a few other points which I would like to bring up that I thought of while researching today. First off, Marika's acceptance of godhood in Enir-Ilim, to me, represents her accepting the power of the spiral, or the crucible, which I see as a power to manipulate life. The imagery of the spiral directly ties to the physical appearance of DNA, which seems to be running haywire in the Hornsent. If Marika accepted godhood from the god of the hornsent, or the god of life, or the crucible (or some divine beast, which I am assuming points back somehow to the dynasty of beasts that predated humanity), then perhaps that led to her control over life-giving processes, and perhaps even can explain her ability to become Radagon. Maybe her transformation into him is a manipulation of her own genetic code. I am aware of many of the other theories regarding Radagon's origins, and am not against them. Simply providing another idea. I think that the rampant evolution of lifeforms associated with the crucible, and the imagery of the spiral and DNA will end up leading somewhere in piecing together the lore of this series.
I can agree with most of what you said here, the history of the Lands Between is spirals within spirals and even the smallest details seem like a *microcosm* of the greater whole. I think that Radagon could have been a product of the Hornsent "Jar Saint" process; perhaps they tried merging Fire Giant body parts with Marika? I hope none of the art you used in this video was A.I. generated though.
Well, as I've alluded to, I view the Jar experiments to be a facade of sorts. So I can't necessarily subscribe to the idea that Radagon was created as a product of their Jar rituals as in my interpretation, Radagon is a person of his own with a fire giant origin due to his red locks. He and Marika (who is of Numen shamanistic origin) are two separate bodies UNTIL they converge to become 'one body' with the bedchamber quote way later into the timeline. This insight is such that it elegantly explains why Messmer and Melina weren't born of a single god unlike Miquella and Malenia. Because at that point in time, Radagon and Marika were still 2 different bodies. While the lore specifically points out how Miquella and Malenia was born of a 'single god' because Marika and Radagon actually converged into a single body at that point in time. Explaining how and why Miquella turned out to be the 'unalloyed gold' while Messmer and Melina weren't. Does that make sense? I'll make a timeline and origin video for Radagon and Marika soon. Hope you look forward to it, Solibrae
@@Ontos99 Sure, that would explain why Messmer and Melina aren't described in the same way as Miquella and Malenia. I just think that Marika and Radagon being merged together somehow by the Jar ritual explains why they're two separate personalities in one body. I am curious to see that timeline and origin video of course! Did you read the last bit of my comment? I would like to know where you found the art used in this video.
I have just written radagon and marika on google and chose a picture. I don't use AI stuff. Well, that's an interesting idea. However, I think both Marika and Radagon were 'intrinsically' the two parts of the rebis and always had the ability to at least theoretically merge. So Hornsent's rituals probably weren't what merged them. As if that is true then why would Radagon still pursue 'to be complete' as written in the Radagon's icon. I think he was legitimately pursuing this unknown spiritual completion he never experienced, broke up with Marika, broke up with Renalla, rekindled his relationship with Marika once again, finally trusting her this time around and having that spiritual union he always desired. That's very thematically strong to me. Radagon and Marika being of a single body by the hornsent experiments would kinda weaken the motivational narrative here but most importantly Messmer and Melina should have been also regarded as a single god born but that seems exclusively linked to Malenia and Melina.
@@Ontos99 Fair enough then, it is fine by me as long as you're not knowingly using A.I. art. ;) True, it would make them seem less special in some way. Perhaps Marika and Radagon's dual existence inspired the Jar ritual in the first place?
Not necessarily hypocrisy but you always reap what you sow. As all Last of us 2 players know, the cycle of violence always begets more. You can't fault Hornsent for at least wanting to retaliate in the shadow realm. Thats why they are so gung ho about Miquella's ascension. Overthrowing Marika and the Erdtree.
Great video. There is one issue with your timeline. Mesmer's crusade includes Rellana sister of Rennala. That means it had to happen after the marriage of Radigon and Rennala which was long after Merika's ascension to godhood. Prior to Radigon & Rennala's marriage, they were at war.
The remembrance states a direct rebellion by Rellana: 'Rellana disavowed her birthright and chose to stand at Messmer's side' This means Rellana is not bound by the war between the Carians and the Lyndell. This doesn't need to happen after the marriage. In fact, the opposite. Rennalla doesn't have a say in Rellana's decisions here which is precisely why it was deemed as a 'betrayal' or 'disavowing her birthright' which was related to the moon. So associating with Messmer was blasphemy. This is actually a case FOR why it happened prior to Radagon and Renalla's marriage as if it happened afterwards, Rellana would not be considered to be have betrayed the Carians.
Furthermore, remember that Renalla has married Radagon eventually meaning she is ALSO sympathetic to the idea of 'conjoining the moon and fire' which is precisely what Rellana has done by becoming Messmer's sword. Rellana and Rennala are not that different when all is said and done. The only difference was that Rennala was betrayed by Radagon while Rellana was not. I assume Messmer stayed loyal to her in their relationship.
A lot of this is headcanon. We don't know if Marika is Numen (it's ambiguous). We don't know if Shaman are Numen. I don't think Numen are even mentioned in the DLC. The symbol on the jar saint forehead isn't a 1:1 of Marika + Radagon scarseal. Nothing says Marika was ever in a jar. Nothing says Radagon is a fire giant. Nokron is never said to be the place of Marika's people.
@@TheChocoboWhisperer First of all, tell me your interpretations on what the symbol on the jar saint forehead means. Read the fire giant's braid description to see Radagon's fire giant origins. This is a thematic reference to sulphur and sun in the alchemical lore. One part of the rebis which we know Radagon to be. "The red king" if you will. Numens are directly written in the base game to be Marika's origins and race. Shamanism is a spiritual path and practice. You cant ignore direct lore information given in the base game and separate shamans to be an entirely different race to Numens, effectively changing Marika's origin story. Let me be more precise. You CAN do that but I'd need some evidence in the DLC where "not all shamans may not be of Numen origin" That would only seed doubt into not everyone being Numen. But Marika's numen origin is not open to interpretation. Hope this helps out. Furthermore 'the eternal cities" is regarding in the game files to be marika's home. Marika the 'eternal" line arises from this connection. I understand not everyone is conscious of these subtler themes. Please stay tuned for my origin story video for both Radagon and Marika. Much love
@@Ontos99 I don't have an interpretation of the jar saint forehead symbol. It's not explained in the game. It doesn't match the scarseals. The Giant's Red Braid doesn't state Radagon is a fire giant. It's ambiguous. It could be saying the giants cursed him. It could be saying red hair is a curse itself. If Radagon is a fire giant, why doesn't he have the size or proportions of one, or have a face on his abdomen like all the other giants? Numen are not explicitly stated to be Marika's race. They're "of the same stock" as Marika. This could mean they're the same family/clan/people, or that they share a common heritage without Marika actually being Numen. It's ambiguous. It is open to interpretation. I don't need to provide any evidence that Shaman are not Numen. Where's the evidence that they are? Like I said, Numen aren't mentioned in the DLC. Don't you find that odd? Why introduce this new concept of Shaman if it's synonymous with Numen? The 'game files' are not necessarily reliable. Lore, story and characters can be rewritten and the game files remain unchanged. The Putrescent Knight is called 'GloamEyedKnight' in the files, but he's a knight of St Trina in the actual game.
@@Ontos99 something interesting from watching atranished Archeologist is the “coffins” in cerulean coast are represented in the ancient ruins beneath the lands between, near Nokron and Nokstella. If we assume the numen arrived in the lands between in these stone ships, then that ancient civilization could have been founded by them and eventually go on to create the Eternal Cities. The ants in the nameless eternal cities also drop Numen runes from the corpses they have fed on, cool stuff!
@@jordanbrown3816 That's a very high-quality insight from Tarnished Archeologist. I was not aware of the coffins literally representing the ones near Nokron. Let me watch that video.
@@Ontos99 it’s his “how outsiders brought the erdtree to the lands between” video. It’s pre-dlc so may not be correct on all parts but there is definitely good insights in there
I did agree until the end. Horsent do not deserve vengeance for what they did. They were lucky Marika hated them too much. Marika didn't put them through torture as they did to her people. Yes, they both committed genocide but one is more cruel than the other.
I didnt say Hornsent deserved their retribution. I said the Hornsent wanted it and hoped Miquella's new reign would make Erdtree and Marika wrenched from divinity. I do not support the idea of vengeance in this manner.
It is pretty interesting. I never realized the Radagon and Fire Giant connect. I would think Radagon's redhair would represent the influence of the Fell God on Shaman/Ascended Jar Saint Marika. Radagon would have been "birthed" from the jar ritual and not biologically from the giants. Unless the hornsent tossed in some giant...ingredients. Man, what a messed up story 😂. Red hair is a sign of the Fell God influence. Lol, Radahn is so wholesome that he "embraced" his red-hair. He was truly too good for the Lands Between An aside, biblically the Nephilim are connected to the serpent. At least with rebellion against the Christian Lord. Messmer is the son of Radagon.
I'm not ashamed to admit I'd submit willingly to Miquella and his divine hair cape. If the " foundation" of his Age of Compassion is his Circlet of Light does that mean it would have replaced the Elden Ring or the Erdtree/Scadutree if he was successful?
That's a good idea and a very plausible possibility. It would probably be replaced as the current 'Elden ring symbol' as that ring always represents the current laws of nature.Miquella aimed to change it radically in his age of compassion.
A very good video with some extremely interesting musings, however i am not aware of any in game lore dumps that seem to imply Ragagon was present or fought in the wars of the giants or even before, which casts shadow of his parentage of Messmer during this point in time. If anything, them both having red hair, along with Melina, his sister, may actually indicate a common parent for the 3 of them, and all which that implies. And seeing as all the giants had red hair and their god was a god of unending world devouring flame....... well, by now we see that some of Marika's children have a strong fire affinity. So i propose the following hypothesis, what if Marika lay with the ancient god of the giants, and used him and his people, to fuel her ascent, only to betray them later, after they were the only thing left that could still burn her Tree? Few final points. First, there doesn't seem to be any indication of the dragons and drakes feuding having anything to do with Marika and the Hornsent. Second, and i think most important, the Grandam refers to Marika as the seductress, not the seduct, implying it was Marika who seduced someone or something, which ended in their downfall and betrayal. Whom did she seduce is never explicitly stated. It may be that she seduced the Hornsent themselves, or the Greater will, or possibly some third outer god, like the god of the giants.
This is dope and all but the game says Merika has contact with the mother fingers and blessed her with the power to free her people and create the erdtree it wasn't her surviving the jar ritual
Yes of course. The elden beast and the fingers is what allows her to become a god in the shadow realm. Not the Jar ritual practices of the Hornsent which (admittedly an interesting attempt) failed in producing the desired saints. The video doesn't focus on the fingers and elden beast. They need their own separate episode explaining their contact and relation to Marika. Glad you enjoyed it
The golden strands of the Elden Ring making up the 'The Life Rune' she also symbolizes in 'Marika's Soreseal'. Elden Beast music plays in the background. This is the start of Marika's Golden Order of Life Reinforcing and Death Denying theocracy. Nothing to do with Godskins, GEQ or snakes which is something I already said countless times prior to the launch of the game in my trailer analysis. Hope this helps. Much love.
Imo there are several problems with this theory, chief among them being that it seems to almost entirely exonerate Radagon, even though it's much more like that he was the one who orchestrated the war on the Hornsent, and the fact that the timeline suggests that the Hornsent were allowed to go on existing and practicing their culture for a long time after Marika's ascension. Radagon's Golden Order fundamentalism far better explains the crusade against those without Grace than Marika's seemingly gentle nature, and nothing about her seems to suggest that she was desperate for revenge. Secondly, this theory completely fails to take into account the influence and actions of the Two Fingers, the Elden Beast and the Greater Will, and how these may have influenced Marika.
@@henrikhumle7255 Nothing about her was "desperate for revenge"? Her entire people of shamans were degraded and stuffed into jar. Of course Marika desires "desperately" for retribution Furthermore, elden beast and greater will is inside narrative and I do take it into account with the protection of the erdtree item description. Just that this video doesnt focus on it as I'll have a separate video focusing on the greater will elden ring and the fingers
@@Ontos99 Marika, nor any item associated with her, ever suggests that she is out for revenge. You're making that up. You have no idea how she actually felt because the game never goes into detail about it; for all we know, she was benevolent enough to forgive the Hornsent for what they did. But she never extended her Grace to them, and graceless being are in opposition to the Golden Order, and Radagon is a fundamentalist, whereas Marika's Minor Erdtree is described simply as gold without order. Do you understand what fundamentalism is? If you do, surely you would agree that it makes a lot more sense to assume that it was Radagon, not Marika, who would order Messmer to eradicate the graceless Hornsent and finally stamp out their culture, rather than Marika, who is never described as being vengeful or cruel. Marika most likely covered it up and sealed the lands of the Hornsent, her son and his army away, fearful of what might happen once their crusade had ended. You can't just say that Marika suffered at the hands of the Hornsent and then extrapolate from that that she would want to avenge herself and her people through such brutal measures. If anything, Marika made herself a god to establish an order that would be less cruel; not AS cruel. And that implies that she forgave them, now that they were no longer a threat to her or her people who, mind you, got away and established themselves, before they were banished underground. Nothing in the lore suggests that Marika was cruel, wrathful or malevolent. The same, however, cannot be said for Radagon, who invaded Liurnia multiple times and was a confirmed religious fanatic/fundamentalist. For all intents and purposes, Marika was most likely a lot like Miquella. She had good intentions, but her order, in the end, was flawed, and eventually it came to rely on faith alone, rather than the healing power of her Erdtree. And we know that she did what she did under the influence of the Fingers and, by extension, the Greater Will; a critical fact that you obviously can't just ignore in a video about Marika, future video or not.
@@Ontos99 Marika and Radagon are the same person, and for all intents and purposes, Messmer could have been mislead by Radagon posing as Marika if that's what Radagon wanted. Or maybe Messmer simply doesn't distinguish between the two of them. How can you say that "Radagon has nothing to do with it" when he IS Marika?
@@henrikhumle7255 Everything in the lore points that Marika still disdains and actively tries to supress her past. The sheer fact that she locks up Omens below the sewers is a tastement that Marika led the crusade on the hornsent with Messmer. Both omens and hornsent are crucible touched with their horns. The lore is extremely clear on this point. Radagon is exactly the opposite. He embraced the crucible qualities with his misbegottens. "The wolf of Radagon" along with his greatsword being in a misbegotten fight in mountaintops of the giants. If anything, Radagon is highly pro crucible and would not agree with Marika shackling both Mohg and Morgott. Saying Marika didnt want retribution against Hornsent and all the blame lies on "Radagon" is a complete misunderstanding of the narrative. Furthermore, Fundamentalism is all but scholarship in name which is an item description you should know about. It doesnt mean dogmatism or anything like that. Keep that in mind. Marika is not like Miquella who tried to embrace the whole of it whether graceful or malign. I do agree that Marika started her order with benevolent intentions but it quickly turned sour. There is a reason why Miquella regards her order as "old order". They are not the same and Miquella's vision is not to replace her but to create a better world. To rebel against her mother. Which is again clear with his Haligtree project. Hope these explanations help. Much love
I'm not sure about the middle part - Marika being a Saint and Radagon helping her. It sound very interesting, but there is nothing in game that remotely confirms it . I loved the rest though. Does removing the rune of death upon Golden Order's creation mean that the Godskins and the Gloam-eyed Queen are involved in this? It is said that she had it before Maliketh took it from her. Could it be her body in the story trailer? Marika was probably already guided by Metyr, chosen as a emperyan and given Maliketh as her Shadow-bound beast. You didn't mention it, so...
8:32 I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by the Greater Will creating a fracture; because the 'first fracture' is really when the One Great splits between that of order and chaos (the greater will, and the frenzied flame). The Greater Will "didn't create" anything. In a world where meddling Gods fight for power and influence, the Greater Will won. And it wasn't until Marika became a God that the "other fracture" occurred (the removal of death from the cycle of life, as a force within the Elden Ring). Would appreciate an explanation of what you meant here. Thank you!
Of course. Allow me to explain albyx. Ymir refers to Greater will as their mother, how they were all created by star dust. This is alluding to a fairly early origin timeline where life is slowly being created by the greater will within an evolutionary timeline. Not necessarily the very first 'fracture' maybe but still early enough in the timeline where the Greater will created duality out of the 'One great' where everything was in a state of non duality. This is a complex subject which is discussed very thoroughly in my 'Elden Ring's Metaphysics' video. Please give that a watch whenever you have some free time. Much love
Wow. Did the greater will intend originally to unite everyone in the lands between and metyr thinking she knew the plan instead of merging she worked to replace the order. Numen had trouble giving birth so this would give them life too.
cant follow you in the whole radagon/marika part... i need a kinder garden kid style explanation pls.. 1+1.. where and how did radagon first appears or manifest himself? min 15 to 19 is full of holes, pls help D:
I think Radagon is the result of the Hornsent merging Fire Giant body parts with Marika in their Jar rituals, but I don't know exactly what Ontos thinks about that of course.
@@Solibrae i can't support the theory that marika is another result (successfull or not) of the jar rituals.. because think about it.. why would she hate the hornsent if they made her in the first place? its not like "ahh they are killing my people" no.. all of them are experiments..and, if marika is a "result" (and one of the lasts ones) then she never saw nor experienced any massacre of the shaman, and them her hatred towards the hornsent have no foundation at all.. idk, something still missing
@@GonK90 She could still remember her past life before she became a "saint" and feel more connected to the Shamans than her fellow "saints". Whether she was one of the first or last created she'd still be able to know what happened to the rest of her people, from first-hand experience and/or learning it from others. It looks like the ritual was a big part of Hornsent culture so I doubt that anybody in the Land of Shadow at the time wasn't aware of it, especially the very people being subjected to the process.
Im having a hard time following some of the logic in this vid, so forgive me if I misunderstand anything in this comment. I think there are some good points in the video, but some of the points feel somewhat headcanon-ish. Especially the bit about Radagon's feelings on the giant war feels like somewhat of a stretch. And also the bit about Marika staunchly rejecting anything that reminded her of the hornsent/crucible is also somewhat confusing, considering the status of the Crucible knights under Godfrey proving that there was at least some reverance for the crucible in early erdtree culture.
Their devetion to Godfrey might have been what gave them status and revelance. The same way Morgott became the king of Layandell Morgott the grace given.
@@davidmingle5910Of course, David. Let me elaborate a little here for you. Fire giant issue needs to be addressed as we know for a fact that Radagon and Marika birthed Messmer prior and afterwards "something" happened. Marika held Godfrey's hand in marriage in her reign. That "something" needs to be explained to have an inherently consistent logic. Fire giant part of the video is my solution to this problem. Feel free to rewatch that section and think about it some more As to suppressing the curcible and horns, this is fairly self evident as omens along with misbegottens and other crucble touched races are suppressed or scorned in Marika's era. Just having crucible knights (which were commanded by Godfrey mind you) doesnt mean Marika is symphathetic to the crucible idea in general or finds it desirable as anything but a weapon against her enemies at the begining of her order. Hope these helped explaining the logic a little more. Much love.
Radagon is not of fire giant descent. there is no evidence besides his hair stating so, and even the description of the giants braid only states that radagon hated his red hair ,mot likely because it was a symbol of an enemy of the erdtree, not because it was his lineage. Radagon was a champion of the Golden Order and the Erdtree, who are thematically opposed of the fire giants. he is not of them.
I think ur confusing the desired outcome the primeval sorcerours were trying to achieve and a consequence of their endevours.no one seeks ego death and im not really sure thats what happened to them but i am certain what happened to them.is only a byproducy of their search like madness is a byproduct of trying to understand the unknowable. Whats funny is that the demihuman swordmaster seemed to know this
Where exactly did you find that radagon was indeed a fire giant kin and where did you read that he felt betrayed by them being wiped out? I'm sorry but in all the years ive played and "studied" this game theres not one confirmation on that so unless you found one idk man just seems like head canon to me
@@mastersonic707 no, Marika is Numen and therefore so is Radagon as they’re a single person but they’re also 2 separate entities. Just like Miquella and Trina were 1 person but they were 2 separate entities and that’s why Miquella was able to shed her from his body, so that he can ascend to godhood.
@@cosseybomb There are actually proofs other than Giant's red braid description (regarding Radagon) but I dont have time to explain everything in this video. Please stay tuned for my "origin" story analysis for both Radagon and Marika coming up in the future where the entire relationship and timeline will be explored in heavy detail and item descriptions
Beautiful video. Hands down could rival any of the big names in terms of depth, proof, and theme centric rationality. I think you've hit several nails in the head.
Looking forward to your thoughts on the title of consort. I think it is devoid of romantic implication. Just an intangible god paired with a physical lord in the realm.
@@Bbmag23 Thank you for your kind words
i think everyone knows the word consort isn't meant romantically.
they just say it for the miquellester meme 😂
@@shy221 it can't be normally put this way in political sence too😅
For example, in DA: Origins you could be a consort of Anora if you play for male noble human. But you couldn't do the same if you were a female)
I think the reason why people associate it with its romantic connotations is that, up until the Tarnished Lord, Marika had children with every consort/Elden Lord before then, and you also marry Ranni in order to become her consort, as she arguably ascends to a kind of godhood of her own. It could mean either thing.
@henrikhumle7255 I get that characters speak fondly of each other, but i dont get any sexual references.
They exhault each other, flatter each other, but never comment about desire. (The prince of lothric and his brother, i believe, get the same bad wrap)
Everything in the story suggests to me that Marika doesn't even give birth in a way that we would know as natural.
I believe consort is just about the promise and binding of wills for one to do the will of the other. God being intangible and the consort being physically in the world.
I'm just saying mogh was never a moghlester because he wasn't trying to fulfill carnal desires by stealing him.
I also wish this wasn’t the only dlc we got. We need another dlc about the gloam eyed queen Godwyn and what god the dragons worshipped.
Counterpoint: we do not need this
I agree I would love some more gloom eyed queen lore
Sometimes I think it’s better to leave certain things unanswered. Thats what has always made these games so entertaining. The ambiguity of certain things is what allows for these games to be speculated about years after release. I find that a lot of times in media, the mystery is better than the answers. That’s how games like Dark Souls 1 can have their lore still be speculated on years and years after release. You have enough answers to feel satisfied in what you know while also having enough mystery to keep you looking deeper. That’s apart of the reason why a manga/anime like One Piece can last so long. It never answers too much but doesn’t ignore questions we have. The mystery around certain characters and events build up naturally throughout the story. When One Piece ends, there will still be a ton we don’t actually know concretely.
Bro we need another elden ring instead of a dlc 😂 many people will say that is too much, how can we have too much elden ring damn 😂
@@froghugger41counter counterpoint we need this😂
And everyone thought the golden order was messed up lol
I think I disagree with your reading of Miquella in particular. I think Miquella's story is about how he ends up repeating his mother's mistakes in trying to rectify them. I think this becomes especially clear if you compare him to Ranni, who is his antitype. The world under the Golden Order is divided in half, one which is embraced by light and one which is abandoned in shadow. Ranni's age of stars universalizes the latter: her age embraces fear, doubt, and loneliness and makes it a universal condition. Miquella by contrast wants to embrace the whole in light, and as such has to discard St. Trina, who represents his fear, doubt, and love, which are together analogues for freedom. His unalloyed gold is not a perfect mixture of death and life, but a purer form of life (and hence gold). This purer form of gold is the gold described in the Minor Erdtree incantation: it is the kindness of gold, without Order. Miquella's age would be one which embraces in light everything which Order abandoned in shadow. But this is ultimately a one-sided vision, which compromises the freedom of anyone who would submit it, as least as much as Order compromised the kindness of gold. Hence what St. Trina says about Godhood being Miquella's prison. His "acceptance of the whole of it" is actually the destruction of everything associated with darkness, including freedom.
That’s why Ranni is the true GOAT. Her quest line was well worth it. Even if I needed a guide lol
Completely agree, especially about Ranni. Look at Leda in comparison to Blaidd. Leda goes mad and tries to prevent us from stopping Miquella. Blaidd goes mad and is forced to try and prevent us from helping Ranni. It even goes down to the way we interact with them. Leda and Blaidd can work as guides towards the player following Miquella and Ranni respectively. In the same respect, they become companions that will change locations throughout your journey. Talk to Leda after killing Mohg to continue Miquella’s mission. Talk to Blaidd after killing Radahn to continue Ranni’s mission.
@@naterodMiquella would be the goat if he just rizzed up the tranished (player character) instead of Radahn 😔
@@ThiollierStTrina Please wait for my follow up video where I'll spend a very long time structuring and exploring Miquella and Radahn. You might have a different feeling when I lay my full arguments. Much love.
@@alter6243age of compassion 😂
Hell yeah 😂
My understanding of Marika is that she and her people came to the Lands Between on the giant coffins, most of them having putrescence, rotting flesh melded for ages, and the survivors were the shamans, Marika included.
They meld nicely in flesh because of their proximity with death and having to live with it for who knows how long in the endless sea.
The hornsent dicovered them and their melding flesh, being perfect for their jar saint project, they used them up, one by one, at least the ones who remained in the village until it was Marika's turn.
And they did it, she became a Saint, filled with the souls and their power, keeping her consciousness due to her bloodline perks of melding flesh.
The hornsent thought she was truly the saint they've desired all this time, but we know that rancour is a powerful emotion, and they saw the one who they've "blessed" with sainthood bringing ruin to them as a betrayal, she bedded with their divine only to smite them down.
I personally think that the shamans arrived through some unexplainable mechanism to the Lands Between, not by arriving physically. The sign by the entrance to the Hinterlands describes the shamans as being "spirited away". There are places known to be physically detached from the Lands Between such as the Shadow Lands, the spirit world, and likely also whichever realm the Outer Gods operate from. With this knowledge wouldn't be far fetched to think that the shamans were spirited away from a different realm to the Lands Between
Marika being an artificial construct makes so much sense in the long run. One of my first questions years ago when I beat the game the first time was why Marika/Radagon looks cracked and broken like pottery rather than a rotting corpse. With the lore of her beginning and the origins of the jars within the Hornsent’s culture worship makes so many things line up.
@@topdeckhelix8450 I would say that Marika is a special shaman in general but I would not necessarily say that Hornsent has helped her in divinity per se. I view jar experiments as a facade of sorts. Hornsent's theoretically strong but weak spirituality in practice. Marika became a god with conquering and took it by force with elden beast alongside her. She just needed some luck and his lover at the time, Radagon's help to create a false hope for the Hornsent. Just enough of a hope to ensure her survival. Giving her enough time to retaliate with Godfrey, Elden Beast and Messmer in general. (Also put the fire giants and Placidusax timeline into perspective)
Tbh i thought the god of the world whoever it is would take on the form of the Elden ring, and with the mesmer phase 2 fights i thought that would explain the eyes (soreseals)
And the way they fused would be bc marika is a shaman via sainthood and jarred up
But if there was a jar in their areas this would support but im too lazy to look lool
@@Ontos99 I mean... Just look at her statue. She obviously reuses prompts designed by the hornsent. Probably to lower their guard.
Dude your channel deserves so much more recognition this is fantastic. Ties things together very well
Glad you enjoyed it Seamus! I'm happy with my community and I hope we are all having fun
The jars near the minor erd trees held the corpses of failed Numen saints that Marika revived using the nectar of life from the trees themselves. These bodies were later repurposed as Erdtree Guardians. Their dress is very similar to Marika and the grandmother in the tree of the Shaman village, as well as the decapitated Shamans found around the Shadow lands. She regarded them with nostalgia and utmost reverence. This role is very in line with the nature of the Shamans/Numens. They manifested their power through the faithful care and symbiosis of trees.
Fantastic video as always. Always insightful knowledge and observations in your content.
I would like to mention one, tiny thing though: A lot of people seem to think that the “grandmother” referred to by marika’s braid is literally marika’s grandmother. But I think it’s fair to say it’s actually marika’s mother, as Marika is always referred to as the “mother”.
Great video! This does also have huge implications for the mending runes/game endings:
Goldmask blamed the fickleness of the gods - i.e. Marika selfishly seeking vengence against the hornsent, aswell as all of her behaviours resulting from the trauma she sustained.
The dung eater rune prevents unnatural rebirth through the erdtree and gradually returns the Lands Between to its native inhabitants - people with horns.
The mending rune of the death prince unifies life and death by allowing life within death.
All of them touch an aspect of what you explained in the video, but none address the whole thing. Repairing the elden ring without a mending rune means that things will remain mostly stagnant (except for destined death being returned). Ranni's ending is a reboot and the pursuit of an alternative source of order, but could be destined to fail, because it relies on the moon alone without also incorporating the sun, making it fundamentally lopsided/unbalanced although it does away with Marika's original sin. And the frenzy flame ending just purges everything because there is no fixing something that shouldn't exist in the first place.
It's a dilemma, since none of the options deals with all issues and the frenzy ending destroys existence itself. Seemingly, there is no right choice.
Great video.
Ya know, I'm starting to think that the Crucible was referring to the jars: where all life was blended together (after being chopped up and stuffed into the jar).
That said, it seems to me that the Hornsent were always stuff their own people into the jar. Jar'ing didn't work until they discovered the Shaman people who's flesh harmoniously melded with others. My guess is that they were stuffing hornsent, human, dragons, etc. into the jars but they would not meld until they introduced shaman flesh.
I think the jar ritual was made to honor the crucible
@@garbageprince and to "create a saint". reminds me of what the Nox were doing with the silver tears.
Maybe that's why Marika's jar experiment contained hornscent innards and having these in her composition ended up causing her first children with Godfrey to be born Omens.
@@MozartBased my thoughts exactly. and that snake skin near Bonny Village might have source for some snake as well, and that could explain Messmer.
@@MozartBasedthat explains so much
I suspect Marika was a Numen, Radagon was a Nox. They were combined together into one. And then Godfrey became their Lord. The specialness is in Marika's Numenness. Radagon gets shed like St. Trina, but is used as a valuable asset instead of discarded, probably so Marika can travel away from the Erd Tree I'd imagine. Then they come back together to play Dr. Jekyll and Ms. Hyde,
Can you elaborate on why you think that Radagon was just Marikas husband at the start, especially compared to St Trina who is explicitly a part of Miquella and not their own person beforehand? Also how did you imagine their "illusion" (Radagon fooling the Hornsent) working out exactly?
@@AdamPW First of all, Messmer is born at this point in time so Radagon definitely had a relationship with Marika at this point. You can interpret him as a lover rather than husband which is more formal. Both are fine by me.
As to fooling hornsent, they regard Marika as "being betrayed by her". That constitutes some level of trust towards Marika. At least for a while, their hopes were pooled towards her. Grandam's item description makes it clearer how much betrayed she feels. Also, you need to explain how conveniently Marika was the sole survivor of the jar experiments? It doesnt make sense to say she did it by luck. But if she fooled hornsent to believe she was the saint they were looking for, her safety would be all but guaranteed. And Radagon as her other self was crucial to that illusion of hermaphrodite sainthood. The conjointment of the moon and sun. Of male and female.
Does it make sense
@@Ontos99 Not sure if I misunderstand something in the video but it sounds to me like you said that Radagon and Marika were not one originally and only really joined each other as one body way later in Leyndell etc? Because to me the parallel of Miquella and St Trina points to the fact that Marika and Radagon were from the start one and Radagon was just an aspect of Marika like St Trina for Miquella. I know the often cited line "O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me. Thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us be shattered, both. Mine other self." is often seen as proof that Radagon was not always Marika but I understand it that Radagon was simply in the process of replacing Marika as the God.
What is your timeline on when Messmer was born? I thought Messmer was born after Marika became a God. Also the line "The first demigods were The Elden Lord Godfrey and his offspring, the golden lineage." sounds to me that Messmer must have come after Mohg and Morgott?
Btw, how do you believe the Fingers factored in all of this (considering how close the Shaman Village is to the Finger Ruins and also how Ymir talks about Mariks being guided by the Two Fingers)?
@@Ontos99 May I suggest an alternative: Marika was a success, but Radagon was split off from her as parts of the same jar. Messmer being a child of Radagon was also a result of alchemical combination, indicating that they were really the Red King and the White Queen. The combination was a reference to Mercurius. Mercurius was represented by the Caduceus, the twin serpent staff. He also had another form: The Abyss/Void. Messmer had the Abyssal Serpent inside him.
Aside Messmer, children of Marika and Radagon always have elements of duality inside them, of Night and Day (Melina's gloam eye), of Death and Rebirth (Malenia), of male and female (Miquella). So I'm assuming Radagon and Marika were two parts of the same Jar Saint.
@@AdamPW First of all, there is no way Messmer was born after Mohg or Morgott. Messmer is PROBABLY Marika's very first child and she had him as a shaman in her village from Radagon. Messmer being born after the golden order doesnt fit with multitude of item descriptions and events.
Yes. As you said I interpret Radagon to converge with Marika into a single body at that bed chamber quote you've given. Marika is urging to "become one" to Radagon and then goes on to birth Miquella and Malenia which is why they are specifically regarded as "single god born" while Messmer or Melina are not.
Furthermore, I think people dont understand why Miquella has his "other self St Trina" to begin with.
Precisely because he was "single god born" he also has St. Trina with himself in a single body. Just like Radagon and Marika was at the time they birthed them.
That doesnt mean Radagon and Marika was "initially" in a single body because we see Miquella divest himself of Trina!
Do you understand the logic? Basically the bed chamber quote is the first time these 2 bodies converged into a single body.
I'll talk about the fingers in a separate episode because these videos are getting too long and dense.
I hope these explanations helped a little.
@@Ontos99 I see, I see 🤔
Do you remember which events/descriptions point to Messmer being one of the first children? I agree that he definitely has very strong first-born energy :D
4:15 Unknown Origin is a Miyazaki catchphrase
Unknown = *X* (cross)
Origin = *O* (ring)
Like the crosshair when you aim a bow
It's a metaphor for Maya and Atma (respectively); with their intersection symbolising the Logos (the principle that the Rebus, Erdtree and Elden Ring are based on)
"In the beginning, everything was *in opposition* to the Erdtree"
Versus
"In the beginning, there was the Logos" (John 1:1)
Compare Malika (Marika) and Mikala (Miquella) with the word, 'Kalima', the Arabic equivalent of Logos (see also Kalameet v.s. Kalimat)
So eager to hear what you have to say in this video. Pre-emotive love and remark!!! Will watch fully when I wake up!
@@K8theKind I hope you'll enjoy it, Luaeria. Please let me know your thoughts afterwards
15:52 plus they tainted the pots with the condemned, there are criminals in those pots that i think create the rancorous spirits in the inner meat
Great connection with Bayle but remember Godwyn was there. The red lightening is to symbolize the betrayal of the dragons. So any dragon using red lightening betrayed that old order. I feel as though the godskin nobles also helped Becasue it never says they’re against them. They used the power to kill “gods” until they got to ahead of themselves. The heighest ranking Nobel wears a snake skin. So it can be argued he skinned the primordial snake. The snake Mesmer uses in the second form is white. But it can also be viewed as Marika covering her bases. That also might be why she kills Godwyn. Seems as though anyone with any history that dates that far back she wanted to get rid of. Miquella was hanging around Godwyn a lot. Dang I felt Marika needed a strong motive to be a god to represent an order that she never believed in. The course of the game we find out why she did it and how she wants to rid the land of the greater will. Which is good because the games lets us choose to either get rid of a “higher” power or establish a new “higher power”. I feel as though Dung eater represents hornsent coming back. He is driven mad by the visions and the activity the hornsent did out of “religion”. A lot of actions are seen as a “blessing”.
This interpretation of the early events makes me think even more about the Gloam-eyed Queen. She had the other rune, the Death rune. How did it cone into her possession? When?
It seems like she was Numen as well and maybe ascended soon after Marika. In that case, she either took what was abandoned by Marika to avoid conflict or Marika herself granted her the other rune. So, there is a possibility that Marika didn't reject death, she just wanted it to not be around her specifically.
The Gloam-eyed Queen then had space to rule, time to get a husband and breed children. She also took care of the Gate, executing any new god who came out of there with her children's help.
And then something went wrong. The Erdtree reached maturity but the remaining Numen grew suspicious of the Two Fingers. They didn't trust the new Order, especially after meeting the astrologers who new of their mother.
They contacted the Gloam-eyed Queen and with her help made a special dagger which they used to stab Matyr. They failed. And as punishment, Marika exiled them underground where they built cities and nurtured a plan to make a god of their own. But in attempt to construct a new Gate of Divinity, they almost ended up extinct.
The GEQ on the other hand was defeated, her rune taken. It is possible that Melina played a great part in this. Whether she was the GEQ herself at one point but charmed and imprisoned to serve the Order or she housed her spirit sealed. Either way, she cannot remember anyting due to Marika's meddling with her memory. Yet, even without memory she still found her original path, brought destined death back and burned the Erdtree. The catalyst was us making her realize how hurt her older brother was by their mother. But she had her suspicions even before that, as she witnessed the fruits of all Marika's decitions which remained in the land for eternity.
There are debates around the reason behind the shattering. A popular theiry is that Marika couldn't bare the loss of a beloved child. But after this video, I guess the reason was that she couldn't bare any loss in general. She build an Order of Life, and still some was slaughtered in a way that couldn't be reversed. So what is even the point then? She made all that, and stolill didn't get what she wanted.
Melina played great part in fighting the Frenzied Flame, a task later picked up by her successor in spirit - Trina. One sought to eradicate the FF, whereas the other believed it could coexist with life if a proper approach is taken. Melina, when alive, was killing those who carried FF because it nullified the point of life and death, and it presented a threat to spirits, which were in shamans' care. But she also carried out assassinations on behalf of the remaining Numens (that is why she was taught the secret incantation). She was the link between Numens and the GEQ. St. Trina, on the other hand, was keeping the FF from growing uncontrollably through lullabies, proving that even the FF is part of natural order, and that great pain can be cured through systematic care.
Totally agree with dualistic nature of pot saints. The omen aren’t really cursed just new hornsent, Marika can pop out all types of children because she is many things, explaining the random red hair radagon has as well.
I believe the lamenters mask is a saint as well, and they tossed it because of the red hair reminding them of the fire giants that haunt their dreams
This is real good my man, you're gonna do well with these. Very interesting and very coherent.
It was mentioned that Mesmer Gaius and Radahn were friends and sort of older brothers to Radahn: Gaius and Radahn were good rivals in their youth, and this
sorcery is a product of their friendly competition, Both were as elder brothers to the lion, and both were cursed from birth. In spite of, or perhaps because of this very reason, Gaius was both Messmer's friend and the leader of his men. And then Rellana was given a blessing by Renalla to fight alongside Mesmer to fight the war against the hornsent. So probably Marika and Radagon went separated paths much earlier.
The only issue with this logic would arise from the fact that Melina was born at the foot of the Erdtree. Just like Messmer, she was Radagon's child. If Radagon and Marika broke up close to the Fire giant conflict (which birthed the Erdtree, see Smithing stone 7 description) this leaves enough time for Melina to be born very early into her golden order. Radagon's last 'seed' of fire before their paths reconverged with the Renalla/Radagon - Godfrey/Marika drama much later into the timeline.
Excellent video with solid analysis. Thanks for putting this together, has given me much to think about.
The part about the hornsent trying to create a hermaphrodite saint needed a bit more explanation and deeper dive into the connection/comparison of the goal of the alchemical rebis. Not because you didn’t do a good job at explaining it, but because I believe that to be pivoting evidence for your claim and thus, if someone is unfamiliar with the concept, may miss your entire point altogether.
Overall, amazing work mate, keep it up!
I'm thinking of doing a purely alchemy focused video for elden ring to crystalize this point. Thank you for your kind words.
If you believe the cut content and concepts, Miquella was god of bounty. Under him everything will prosper and multiply. And after ditching the humility and love you can see how this will be the crueler version even compared to Marika’s stagnation. He would make everything kept multiplying, his world would soon become cesspool of overpopulated mass and he has lost the ability to have empathy to his subjects’ suffering. They will eventually raised against him out of extreme suffering.
Of all the multitude of souls "lore" content creators, I believe you are the closest to the true meaning of the games. It's obvious to me that Miyazaki is heavily initiated in escotericism, alchemy, and hermeticism. We will never get the full picture, that's the intention. I've been waiting for your videos specifically on sote. Great job.
@@FunTownUS123 I do agree that alchemy is an extremely strong and prevalent theme in Elden ring which is simply ignored to be unrelated at worst and misunderstood at best by the greater lore community. Leading to in my eyes, sub par analysis/understanding of Miyazaki's vision.
Furthermore we are talking about GRRM here. The song of "Ice and Fire" "Marika and Radagon" "Numens and Fire Giants" "Female and Male" "Mercury and Sulfur" "Moon and Sun" The thematic connections are extremely strong with alchemy and not choosing to integrate it within one's analysis will surely miss themes and connections very much intended by the developers.
Thank you for your kind words
I am only halfway through this video but I have to say I get why people are saying this seems like head canon etc but I feel like you're making really good arguments that are largely supported by other creators like Queelag and Smough Town so your points like...make more sense with the added context of the countless other Elden Ring lore content I've already consumed lol
Fantastic video as always! I thoroughly enjoyed your focus on the importance of the spiral; as it can represent a merging of life (sun) & death (moon) to form rebirth (eclipse). Overall outstanding perspective & interpretations! You mentioned that Radagon is Messmer's father, which makes sense given Messmer's features/attributes; yet I am still left puzzled by the union of Marika & Radagon. I would love to hear more about your perspective on Radagon's origin, you mentioned a relation to the fire giants. Also what do you make of the discarded snake skin found in Bonny Village?
Hey Elden Tales.
As to the shedded snake skin, Messmer has completely gone berserk like his 2nd phase, shed his skin by burning intensely (like what happened in the 2nd phase) to burn the Bonny village with him. The abyssal serpent did it. These people who tortured her mother's people surely in his eyes deserved no sympathy. So he surrendered to its wrath and this is probably why Marika gave him his eye to reduce his tendencies to go berserk. To control the abyssal serpent.
I'll explain Fire giant origins of Radagon much better when I make my origin timeline video for both Radagon and Marika. I hope you enjoy that video.
Thank you so much. Glad you enjoyed my analysis. My next video is focusing on not just alchemy but psychology of various characters before I make my conclusive arguments on what the ending means along with Miquella's ultimate intentions. I plan to make it my best video.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on it. I should release it in a few days.
@@Ontos99 Thank you for taking the time to reply, your perspective always interests me & provides wonderful insights. I look forward to your next video about Miquella's ultimate intentions & your eventual video covering Marika & Radagon's timeline! The time & effort you put into your work is always evident.
@@EldenTales Just to be thorough, that snake skin can also be one of the ingredients hornsent used to add into the jars but again, the interpretation here depends on various vantage points.
I view Messmer's pushback to be more thematically congruent with what we've seen in the 2nd phase but this is another possible interpretation of the snake skin.
@@Ontos99 I absolutely agree interpretations can vary greatly depending on your perspective. I understand what you're saying about Messmer too; although I have this strange feeling that the skin connects to Eiglay in Volcano Manor, the only other location where we find the shed skin of a large white serpent. Eiglay, the ancient snake deity, once had a religion associated with Mt. Gelmir, where they practiced ritualistic sacrifice (Serpent-God's Curved Sword).
Located at the alter of the Temple of Eiglay there are spirals engraved into the columns, these spirals match the architecture of Enir-Ilim & Belurat. Within the temple are statues of winged serpents & within the DLC we can find the Serpent Crest Shield that features an engraving of a winged serpent, the shield excels at guarding against fire as well. We know that Rykard traveled to a foreign land in his youth which is where he met Tanith.
Long ago, when Rykard first set eyes on Tanith, she was working as a dancer in a foreign land. Soon, he made her his consort (Consort's Mask). Tanith is also associated with the item Dancer's Castanets which states castanets used by dancers from foreign lands; the passionate dance comprises no seductiveness, but merely a dignified beauty. It's possible that Tanith was once a Dancer of Ranah, a dancer from a foreign land. Zullie the Witch in a video about the DLC shared how similar the face of Tanith is to the Dancer of Ranah.
The Dancer of Ranah in the Southern Nameless Mausoleum drops the dancer's set, the hood states that the dance of Ranah is one of burning passion, and the most passionate dancers never allow their fiery dance to end, losing even their names as they dance on. To see the passion fade is to see the dancer's flame extinguished. The dancer's set is colored red to match their fiery dance. The fact that the dance is described as fiery & that Tanith ended up in Volcano Manor seems to be a connection as well.
I wondered if Tanith wasn't the only thing Rykard brought back from his visit to the foreign land (Land of Shadow).
@@EldenTales Oh I see what you mean. That is cool but the problem would be Rykard wasn't born yet when this shedded skin was dropped here so although Eiglay in some form might be related, not sure if Rykard or tanith is.
If we argue Rykard has travelled to the Land of shadow in his youth and somehow is the reason of this skin, that's a bit random information that doesn't gel with or connect to the Bonny village, don't you think?
I'll release my Radagon origins and Snakeskin thoughts in an ambitious video in 2 days. Please let me know your thoughts and tell me if you like it.
I have a theory, that the lands of shadow has a bend in time and this bend is so intense that Miqella was able to exploit it by both finding the shadow realm and also waiting for us to do our part.
My Miquella video is releasing in 2 hours to explore these subjects ;)
I think the only question about all this I have is the timeline. We know from Melina’s words at a church of Marika that she directly told Radagon “Thou art yet to become me. Thou art yet to become a god.” This confirms Radagon and Marika were not always one but I don’t understand how they had Messmer before Morgott Mohg and Godwyn. It’s stated specifically in Gaius remembrance that Messmer was an older brother to Radahn but does that just mean as a half older brother? Messmer had to have been born before Godwyn Mohg and Morgott but they were shackled underneath so that means the erdtree was completely created by then? Then when in the world did Radagon get with Rennala? Does this also mean that it was only after Radagon and Marika were conjoined that Miquella and Malenia were born? I need Miyazaki and George R.R. Martin to release that book Martin wrote that serves as the basis for the entire game which was said to have been created by the request of From Soft because they had planned to only create a game based off the events of this book.
@@Not____Applicable I'll explain the entire timeline from the begining of history and the elden lord finale for both Marika and Radagon in a full "origin" story in a single episode. I'll explain all the details and share my (hopefully) interesting timeline. But the next episode will focus on Miquella and Radahn.
"When he glimpsed the skeleton in the closet".
Good video. Lots of things to ponder in this video snd the comments. I like the alchemy research and cultural research poured into this.
I was skeptical for a lot of this video, but if the conflict is what you speculate from the in-game evidence, it makes more sense that the Gloam-Eyed Queen would try to retaliate against Marika and the Erdtree as well. Marika the Eternal would be an affront to the concept of death that was Meant to be balanced with life, Not sealed away by it. The Radagon and Marika stuff makes a bit more sense but is still super confusing to me, but after hearing a satisfying reason for the GEQ to go to war I was happy enough to follow along with a more open mind lol. Hope you make a lot more videos about whatever you find from the DLC that helps make sense of the base game, because that's what I'm most concerned about. The DLC itself was mostly self-contained if you ignore context of the Lands Between, so nothing new was hard to understand.
The only lie to that last sentence I typed was that I never considered Radagon and Marika in a pot together? But that would explain a lot lol.
I’ve been patiently waiting ontos for your sote story time can’t wait for the deep dive I know you cooking up keep it up 💪🏿💪🏿✊🏾
Wow. Just wow. The analysis of the horned statue is simply brilliant. Subbing rn
I like to think that the Hornsent actually used flesh from every race to create saints such as Marika. IMO this would explain her children’s afflictions - they each have an aspect that was used to create her. Possible evidence for this could be the snake skin found in Bonny village - which may have been partly used in jars (hence Messmer and Rykard). I’m not sure what race would provide Miquella’s affliction though… Excellent video btw - probably the best dlc one I’ve seen.
I think the bonny village butchers were tasked with putting criminals of their society and shamans together in the jars, that way they could sanctify the criminals.
As for the snake skin, Marika placed a seal in Messmer's eye so I dare assume there was a point in time where Messmer did not have this seal. Perhaps he in the form of the base serpent shed his skin before?
What I also find interesting is that Messmer theme song in game is very similar to Radagon's, perhaps a hint at his lineage, beside Marika of course.
And regarding Radagon, perhaps unifying male and female was the point of the jar saint holy project, and Marika happened to be a success. Even though their beloved success betrayed them in the end.
Rykard wasn't afflicted, he willingly gave himself to the serpent in merging ritual to grow stronger during shattering.
He is a kid of Radagon and Renalla.
While Mesmmer was born with affliction and was able to shapeshift since birth.
@@rafsandomierz5313 there’s a bit of lore that states even before Rykard let himself get consumed by the serpent, he was rather serpentine. Granted that’s not necessarily an affliction
no jokes, and no disrepect, you have 2270 subscribers your video is way to good for those numbers, so indepth, you made the incromrpehensible comprehensible for me you made it make sense, thank you for this story ( i understood the gist of it but not how marikas motives actually were humanlike and made sense) THANK YOU
@@noahmei7200 tomorrow night tune in to my channel because we'll focusing on the ending of the DLC. A very in depth lore video is coming. Thank you for your kind words
This channel deserves more subs. That said Radagon is not Messmen father, Messmer is flame related, Radagon is weak to fire. Instead, Radagon was probably inside the jar with Marika. Or he was an hornsent or there was a third hornsent inside the jar. That would explain why some of Marika's son are omen: it's literally the hornsent recessive genes coming out. And she was probably considered a success giving her access to the top of the tower. Then she betrayed the hornsent killing their god\king and becoming a god herself, with the help of the two fingers
Never thought about Radagon’s weakness to fire in relation to the lore! That’s a very interesting observation to ponder 🤔
I doubt if the stone coffins brought the Marika’s and her people into the shadow realm. I think the coffins are the resting places for dead gods. Thus housing their ghosts. Perhaps, that’s why we find grate ghost gloveworts on the stone coffins a.k.a ships in the dlc.
I think marika is a perfected jar saint, the alternative seems a bit too convoluted. her and radagon were two former people placed in the same jar and thus became the same.
I could also see all of her children being other aspects that were placed in her jar, that she was only able to remove through passing the aspect on to a child since they would be the only remaining shamans. This part doesnt have much backing just a personal theory.
I also find godrick extremely interesting now as it seems he knows about his shaman blood and its ability to meld with other things thus the grafting began. Same goes for Rykard. And godwyn post mortem.
Lastly, the gloam eyed queen and base serpent must have been an obstacle for her ascension. Since it seems like when they were defeated they were sealed (or grafted) into melina and messmer respectively.
It's a very entertaining story! I can totally see the underlying alchemical background to all the characters and especially Marika and her "divinity" as a male/female being. I personally don't think Radagon and her are separate people though, and never have been. I think the "being" Marika is the anticipated result of the jar experiments. The crucible, the intertwined spiral, personified. And the inherent duality confined to one person is the basis of her divinity. I don't think they've ever been husband and wife, and I don't think Messmer has been born before she became a god. The fact all her children suffer from supernatural afflictions, some sorts of dualities and varying degrees of "impurity" (speaking from an (al)chemical standpoint), is a consequence of her being a "dual being", meaning they were all born after the fact.
I'd go further with the alchemical references, since the lore and themes of godhood focus so much on gold, and creating gold. I think Marika represents the philosopher's stone. And her children represent elements of her own creation. None as pure as her, which proofs the flaw of it all and which might've been what caused Marika to lose faith and come up with a plan to tear it all down.
This is a good video! Wonderful thoughts, I enjoyed this with the approach about contrasts and how they add to the overall theme
And thus, Marika (a Numen) dreamed of a world of Life to escape her reality of Death.
I honestly don’t see the Jar Saint brand as being Marika’s+Radagon’s seals, and both of those would only become their symbols after her ascension, since they represent to her crucifixtion and fundamentalism respectively
5:28 hey i just realized this is Romina
Loved the video!
By the way, what was the song at around 30:03? I cant recall the name
It is a song from a game called Xenoblade chronicles 3
This is an awesome video! You’ve given me a lot to think about. I was shocked to see you only have 2k subs. Definitely earned a sub from me!
I think you have it right but backwards. I feel like marika was a jar saint, but everything you see in the game is kind of fragments of her/his history. The world is like the collective unconscious of everything that went into the divinity jar.
I really thought we would've gotten more of a "crucible" theme in the DLC. Especially in Enir Ilim. Because like you said the hornsent are very spiritual people that worshipped the crucible. So I started to assume that we would get some more important information on the crucible. It may not be important but it is something that I found pretty fascinating.
I think the crucible being a slightly esoteric theme is very much intended. I'm personally satisfied with spiral motifs and general representation of it.
I believe most people were disappointed to not see the Gloam Eyed Queen which I said she would probably not be focused on in the DLC before the game released when everyone was hyping it up with 'godskins' and whatnot. It is very clear in my mind that Melina was the former GEQ and that leaves the timeline post-Erdtree. Not pre-Erdtree which this DLC focuses on.
We even saw these gravebirds which are reminiscent of the twinbird and deathbirds in the base game. The ghostflames which pre-dated the Erdtree was also fairly prevalent. So I'm not super disappointed in that.
I would only like to learn a little more on Placidusax's fled god. That's my only thing.
@@Ontos99 yeah I guess so. Thinking about it I'm way more disappointed that we got nothing about the gloam eyes queen. I did get to learn more about the crucible in this DLC so I'll take what I get 😅. I definitely learned a lot more watching your video.
Great stuff! Really compelling considering the themes of duality at play
Your theory explains why the Scadutree has two trunks, huh.
Umm, we have no reason to believe that Bayle was acting on behalf of Messmer or the Golden Order in general or that Messmer had any relationship with Bayle at all. The presence of undead dragons and Messmer's forces attacking them implies the opposite, really. In fact, the Ancient Dragons would have never made peace with Marika's empire if it had been allied with Bayle considering the utter hatred Placidusax feels for him to the point of founding an entire movement based on hunting his kin and eating their hearts. As we can see from the Jagged Peak Drake fighting another lesser dragon and the Jagged Peak being littered with dragon corpses, Bayle and his direct descendants are just warlike and violent in general and he challenged Placidusax simply because he felt he was the stronger one who deserved to rule.
You also conspicuously left out any involvement of Metyr and her two fingers who majorly influenced Marika on what her new empire should be like and who presumably told her to merge herself with the Elden Ring to obtain godhood. The Golden Order becoming a monotheistic religion that shuns and excludes any other forms of divinity can be traced back to their desire to re-establish contact with the Greater Will by appeasing them in this way.
I think it makes more sense for Marika to have divested herself of Radagon when she was to become a god in the same way Miquella did
Radagon is known to be a devout Order fundamentalist. Maybe Marika rid herself of Radagon as a way to remove the fanatical part of her indoctrination from the hornsent so she could rule without being blinded by a single belief
@@TitanAnon Although Centered Tarnished argues for this angle, I fail to see the reason why Marika would divests herself of her flesh (which already assumes they were in a single body with Radagon) to birth her golden order.
We know the reason why both Miquella and Ranni divested their flesh. To be free from Marika's DNA and consequently the Greater will's control.
No such burden exists for Marika. She became the dominant theocracy in the realm by force. By sheer conquest and crusades of various beings. The hornsent, Fire giants, Dragons you name it. Just as the protection of the erdtree states, by conquest did the Erdtree became the embodiment of order.
Marika cant divests herself of Radagon at the birth of her golden order. They were in 2 different bodies already and they will not reconverge into a single body until "the bedchamber" quote where Marika specifically urges Radagon "to become one" "to become a god". Which is precisely why Miquella and Malenia are born of a "single god" while Messmer and melina are not.
These are complex subjects that requires me to set a strong foundation. Please stay tuned for my Marika and Radagon origin timeline video.
@@Ontos99 I don't think you have to divest your flesh to divest your other self. We see that with miquella as he slowly removes pieces of himself, saint Trina included (miquellas equivalent of radagon)
And in Marika´s journey, Marika was guided by her two fingers, who in turn, are guided by their broken mother. We know they dont care what face the order takes, as long it is order. Or maybe thats the wrong message, Mydir just knows that the world needs an order, but it doesnt know what order is the perfect one, and the greater will is gonne with the answer, so she just tries whatever it works.
Super solid video, you are saying stuff I have been thinking that I haven't seen others fully submit to, like the hornsent sacrifices at the gate of divinity is marikas doing. Others are saying this is a structure made by the hornsent, but I think you are right on this.
One thing I disagree with is the stuff on Radi and Mari, I think it is pretty clear due to no shirt and no breasts that the DLC trailer is showing Marika and Radagon already merged.
I'll modify that part of the headcanon in my next video. You'll like the final version to say the least ;)) I will release it in a few days. Don't forget to subscribe to not miss it. I wanna hear your thoughts.
Thanks. Glad you enjoyed it
I think Godfrey was there when Marika ascended to Godhood by walking through the gate of dvinity, Godfrey probably fought the fight for Marika. Probably very likely to Miquella and his lord Radahn.
And after that, Godfrey was sent out to fight Marika's enemies, so who knows what Marika did in the meantime.
And with so many hints in the game that Radagon is Messmer's father and Messmer serving as an older brother to Radahn, I suppose Marika and Radagon may have been one and the same at the very beginning.
But of course there's the whole quote where Marika tells Radagon that he's yet to become one with her. And I guess it's not very certain either if Messmer is older than the golden lineage, Mohg, Morgott and Godwyn. But I'm not sure if there's any info on that. Though I do think that after Godfrey served his purpose by ridding the world of Marika's potential enemies, the grace left his eyes and he and his men were banished from the Lands Between by Marika and her people.
Only to return as a last resort...
I like this reading! I actually didn’t notice the distinction between the bodies of Enir-Ilim-that was a particularly great observation.
Keep up the good work, I’m looking forward to the next part
Is it the truth? Is it a diary of charbroil Miyazaki? 😂
Laura says it is not the truth. Leda, blade of Miquella, also says it is not the truth.
Amazing vid, one thing tho ur mic seems to pick up lows way more than other sounds a slight curve on the lower end with an eq may help.
I do not know what these terms mean but I always do my best to improve my work a little bit each video. Thank you for the suggestions and I'll try to have a better sound quality in the next video
Really well made video! I think it sheds a lot of light into the origins of Marika better than others have.
Quick question, when you say around 23:57 that Messmer helped to seal the fire giants forge, don't you mean Godfrey? Asking because you say just before that that Messmer uses Bayle to help fight the former dragon lord Placidusax while Godfrey is used to bring down the fire giants to create an environment where the erdtree can grow and fluorish...so why is Messmer suddenly helping with sealing the forge as well? Is there any evidence of this?
No. You heard it right. Messmer is sealing the flames of the forge, not Godfrey. Only the fireborn can interact with the Fire Giant's forge which is precisely why his little sister, Melina re-activates the Forge in the base game to burn the Erdtree.
Messmer sealed the forge of the Fire Giants at the order of Marika, while Melina 'unsealed' it for us to gain entry to the Erdtree. Both are demigods who 'bore the vision of fire'
My arguments and interpretations are almost always thematic or strongly reinforced by sub-text. Thank you for kind words. Let me know if you want me to elaborate on something else.
Well Done, We’ll Put Together!
I Believe Marika IS the Woman In Manse Castle Painting. She Went There To Learn About The Horsnsent Faith/Divinity, SEDUCED Midra and became the Lady Of The Church (She Has 2 Golden Braids In The Painting)
Together Marika And Midra Discovered And Made Contact With METYR (there’s cloths in the church covering and hiding finger pillars, the same we see in the finger ruins, the tunnel fingers to Metyrs arena)
Soon After This, Marika Was Given Power And A Mission By Metyr or Her Own 2 Fingers And LEFT… She Stole The Sacred Rite Scroll Along With All Of Midras Information She Squeezed Out Of Midra, Who Is The Leader Of The Hornsent Religion At The Time. She ABANDONED AND BETRAYED Midras (The Seduction And Betrayl The Trailer Spoke Of)
She Then Continued Her Travels To The Spiral Tree/Divine Gate, But Before Going She Made One Last Stop In Her Village And Placed The Gold Erttree Spell As Well As CUT OFF ONE OF HER BRAIDS. She Then Continued To Become A God.
MEANWHILE! During This Time! Midras Was Becoming So Overwhelmed With Grief, Anger, MADNESS, That He Ended Up Summoning Something Else From Metyr…. The 3 Fingers!!!
During This Despair A New Church Lady Of The Church/Nun Was Hired/Appointed To Help Midra Quell His Madness, Nanaya! (Her Corpse Has Raven BLACK hair, NO BRAIDS. She Is NOT the woman in the painting. Just holding the same position Marika had after Marika left the church. Similar to when u apply for a job and take the previous managers position)
Nanaya Helped Him Endure Is Madness But Not Too Long The Inquisition Showed Up And Put Everyone To The Holy Lance.
By this time I’m sure Marika was fighting her way up the tower.
-Some Hints/Reasonings
•Manse Church Painting Flowers, Hinterlands is the only other place where we see so many MULTICOLORED flowers. Also both locations hidden under Shadow Keep.
•Marika Was Not One Of The Shaman Put InJars, So Where Did She Go In Order For Her To Return To Find The Village Emtpy?? She Was At Manse Church
•HOW Did Marika know what to do or where to go or even what her missions should be?? Metyre along with all of the secret information she manipulated out of Midra (The Leader Of The Religion) Gave Her Enough Info And Power To Begin Her Ascension.
•Why does Hornsent Grandam Call Marika A STRUMPET! Because she SEDUCED The Head Of Their Religion! 😲💃
There’s a few others Ginge connecting points too. Can’t remember off the top of my head. But I’m like 99% positive these are the events that happened before Marika walked through the gate! 🤓🤯
If you would have to be a god...what god would you be? Someone like Marika that cared only about herself and gained power just to fulfill her ambitions and goals? A kind and just sovereign that looks over his lands and keeps everything in order? A god of war that would build a powerful army and conquer everyone else to build the strongest nation of the land? Or something completely different?
@@Sargatas I've never thought about it but in general I'm a humanistic person. And I also value individualistic freedom. I'd probably be seen as a relatively fair and just ruler who tries to keep just enough chaos so that "the order" isnt prone to shattering ;)
@@Ontos99 I see😁
Excellent analysis, Ontos. Brought up some new points that I had never considered and reinforced a few that have circulated in the community.
Slightly unrelated, I continue to find myself a bit too concerned with the physical geography of the land of shadows. For instance, I try to find a way to understand how the stone coffins of the cerulean coast arrived there.
I'll add details in a reply to this comment to keep this message shorter, if you're interested in reading some speculation.
My first thought as to the origin of these stone coffins connects to how we see a network of coffins being used for transportation in the ruins of the ancient civilization (Uhl? Uld?) under The Lands Between, that seem to pre-date the Eternal Cities. We also see that these smaller coffins can move via scripts of light, which has since the release of Shadow of the Erdtree, seemingly become a reference to the magic-script-writing capabilities of the smiths of the ancient forges.
Given the imagery of the giant stone coffins as boats, and their likely origin in the Uhl civilization, it's fair to speculate that they drifted magically using the smithscript, ending up at the cerulean coast and inside the stone coffin fissure beneath it, where the putrefied flesh is congealing.
The visual depiction of a massive underground ocean (the one that can be seen from the ancestral woods next to Nokron) adjacent to the Uhl civilization (my speculated origin of the giant stone coffins) is also reminiscent of methods of reaching the underworld in ancient mythologies. The boat-like form of the stone coffins (as well as the existence of the Tibia Mariners) further cements my speculation that crossing a body of water is part of the passage into the underworld, in this case, the Land of Shadow, where all death ultimately drifts.
A key detail is the bull-figurehead on these stone coffins, tying them to the Uhl civilization. The bull is closely associated with Gugalanna in Sumerian mythology, representing the underworld and divine retribution. Sumerian/Babylonian imagery seems to be a common theme among the Uhl civilization. This reinforces the idea that the stone coffins were intended for a journey into the underworld, or a passage for the dead.
This naturally leads to the contents of the coffins. I speculate that the coffins contain the dead bodies of first-generation Albinaurics, created before the Eternal Cities, possibly by the Uhl civilization. This goes against my perception of the majority speculation in the community that the albinaurics were all created by the Eternal. Also, the Albinaurics, with their silver blood and tendency to lose the use of their legs, are deeply connected to arcaneness. This arcaneness could be a connection revealing why the putrescence, or specifically, the putrescent knight's remembrance weapon, derives power from arcaneness. The lifeforms in the giant stone coffins are said to be tainted, which harkens back to the fact that albinaurics are considered to be tainted lifeforms, fairly well-cementing the speculation that it is albinaurics in the giant stone coffins.
Additionally, I speculate that the spirit plant (ghost glovewort) cultivation by the Eternal Cities, and potentially by the Uhl civilization, could be the method by which Albinaurics are given life. My vision of this process is that the liquid silver metal droplets form the structure of the albinaurics bodies, but the residual spiritual energy that dwells in ghost glovewort, or simply any residual spiritual energy, which seems to be abundant in the underground of the lands between, could form the basis of the life energy that is inserted into the bodies of albinaurics. This too could explain why the albinaurics are seen as tainted. They would essentially have been given residual life energy from the spirits of the dead. Not too far off from Those Who Live in Death, conceptually. If the Uhl civilization did partake in these practices, the ethereal or spirit nature of the Albinaurics' source of life might explain why their legs eventually fade. This fading is reminiscent of the spiritgraves in the land of shadows, which also eventually fade. I speculate that both the spiritgraves and the Albinaurics' blood likely contain the essence of spirits, tying their existence to the life force absorbed from the spirits of the dead. To put it simply, the ripples with which albinaurics are so heavily associated could be the metal droplets being dropped into a body of water containing spirits, possibly the underground ocean next to Nokron. The spirits could then inhabit the metal droplets which form the physical structure of the albinaurics' bodies. Alternatively, the spirits in the ghost glovewort could be used directly in the inserting of spirit energy into the metal droplets.
As another new connection, the Albinaurics originate from liquid silver metal droplets, which seem to be a natural progression from the molten liquid metal droplets found in the ruins of the smiths of the ancient forges. The ancient smiths' artifacts, such as the ancient meteoric ore greatsword, also derives strength from arcaneness, similarly to albinaurics, further cementing the speculated connections between the smiths, their light scripts, and the light scripts used by the ancient civilization, as well as between the arcaneness of the ancient smiths and the arcaneness of the albinaurics.
From all of this, I think that it is plausible that the Uhl civilization inherited some of the forging and light-scripting techniques of the smiths of the ancient forges. They formed the first generation of Albinaurics from these liquid metal droplets, which are given life through the life energy of spirits, and eventually placed them into the stone coffins which ended up in the Cerulean Coast.
Unrelated to all of the above is a few other points which I would like to bring up that I thought of while researching today. First off, Marika's acceptance of godhood in Enir-Ilim, to me, represents her accepting the power of the spiral, or the crucible, which I see as a power to manipulate life. The imagery of the spiral directly ties to the physical appearance of DNA, which seems to be running haywire in the Hornsent. If Marika accepted godhood from the god of the hornsent, or the god of life, or the crucible (or some divine beast, which I am assuming points back somehow to the dynasty of beasts that predated humanity), then perhaps that led to her control over life-giving processes, and perhaps even can explain her ability to become Radagon. Maybe her transformation into him is a manipulation of her own genetic code. I am aware of many of the other theories regarding Radagon's origins, and am not against them. Simply providing another idea. I think that the rampant evolution of lifeforms associated with the crucible, and the imagery of the spiral and DNA will end up leading somewhere in piecing together the lore of this series.
I can agree with most of what you said here, the history of the Lands Between is spirals within spirals and even the smallest details seem like a *microcosm* of the greater whole. I think that Radagon could have been a product of the Hornsent "Jar Saint" process; perhaps they tried merging Fire Giant body parts with Marika?
I hope none of the art you used in this video was A.I. generated though.
Well, as I've alluded to, I view the Jar experiments to be a facade of sorts. So I can't necessarily subscribe to the idea that Radagon was created as a product of their Jar rituals as in my interpretation, Radagon is a person of his own with a fire giant origin due to his red locks.
He and Marika (who is of Numen shamanistic origin) are two separate bodies UNTIL they converge to become 'one body' with the bedchamber quote way later into the timeline.
This insight is such that it elegantly explains why Messmer and Melina weren't born of a single god unlike Miquella and Malenia. Because at that point in time, Radagon and Marika were still 2 different bodies.
While the lore specifically points out how Miquella and Malenia was born of a 'single god' because Marika and Radagon actually converged into a single body at that point in time. Explaining how and why Miquella turned out to be the 'unalloyed gold' while Messmer and Melina weren't.
Does that make sense?
I'll make a timeline and origin video for Radagon and Marika soon. Hope you look forward to it, Solibrae
@@Ontos99 Sure, that would explain why Messmer and Melina aren't described in the same way as Miquella and Malenia. I just think that Marika and Radagon being merged together somehow by the Jar ritual explains why they're two separate personalities in one body.
I am curious to see that timeline and origin video of course! Did you read the last bit of my comment? I would like to know where you found the art used in this video.
I have just written radagon and marika on google and chose a picture. I don't use AI stuff.
Well, that's an interesting idea. However, I think both Marika and Radagon were 'intrinsically' the two parts of the rebis and always had the ability to at least theoretically merge.
So Hornsent's rituals probably weren't what merged them. As if that is true then why would Radagon still pursue 'to be complete' as written in the Radagon's icon. I think he was legitimately pursuing this unknown spiritual completion he never experienced, broke up with Marika, broke up with Renalla, rekindled his relationship with Marika once again, finally trusting her this time around and having that spiritual union he always desired.
That's very thematically strong to me. Radagon and Marika being of a single body by the hornsent experiments would kinda weaken the motivational narrative here but most importantly Messmer and Melina should have been also regarded as a single god born but that seems exclusively linked to Malenia and Melina.
@@Ontos99 Fair enough then, it is fine by me as long as you're not knowingly using A.I. art. ;)
True, it would make them seem less special in some way. Perhaps Marika and Radagon's dual existence inspired the Jar ritual in the first place?
Loved the video Ontos!! You get Marika and her hypocrisy!! Lol
Not necessarily hypocrisy but you always reap what you sow. As all Last of us 2 players know, the cycle of violence always begets more. You can't fault Hornsent for at least wanting to retaliate in the shadow realm.
Thats why they are so gung ho about Miquella's ascension. Overthrowing Marika and the Erdtree.
Great video. There is one issue with your timeline. Mesmer's crusade includes Rellana sister of Rennala. That means it had to happen after the marriage of Radigon and Rennala which was long after Merika's ascension to godhood. Prior to Radigon & Rennala's marriage, they were at war.
The remembrance states a direct rebellion by Rellana: 'Rellana disavowed her birthright and chose to stand at Messmer's side'
This means Rellana is not bound by the war between the Carians and the Lyndell. This doesn't need to happen after the marriage. In fact, the opposite.
Rennalla doesn't have a say in Rellana's decisions here which is precisely why it was deemed as a 'betrayal' or 'disavowing her birthright' which was related to the moon.
So associating with Messmer was blasphemy. This is actually a case FOR why it happened prior to Radagon and Renalla's marriage as if it happened afterwards, Rellana would not be considered to be have betrayed the Carians.
Furthermore, remember that Renalla has married Radagon eventually meaning she is ALSO sympathetic to the idea of 'conjoining the moon and fire' which is precisely what Rellana has done by becoming Messmer's sword.
Rellana and Rennala are not that different when all is said and done. The only difference was that Rennala was betrayed by Radagon while Rellana was not. I assume Messmer stayed loyal to her in their relationship.
Thx for the episode
@@Dressyone223 You are welcome
A lot of this is headcanon. We don't know if Marika is Numen (it's ambiguous). We don't know if Shaman are Numen. I don't think Numen are even mentioned in the DLC. The symbol on the jar saint forehead isn't a 1:1 of Marika + Radagon scarseal. Nothing says Marika was ever in a jar. Nothing says Radagon is a fire giant. Nokron is never said to be the place of Marika's people.
@@TheChocoboWhisperer First of all, tell me your interpretations on what the symbol on the jar saint forehead means.
Read the fire giant's braid description to see Radagon's fire giant origins. This is a thematic reference to sulphur and sun in the alchemical lore. One part of the rebis which we know Radagon to be. "The red king" if you will.
Numens are directly written in the base game to be Marika's origins and race. Shamanism is a spiritual path and practice. You cant ignore direct lore information given in the base game and separate shamans to be an entirely different race to Numens, effectively changing Marika's origin story. Let me be more precise. You CAN do that but I'd need some evidence in the DLC where "not all shamans may not be of Numen origin"
That would only seed doubt into not everyone being Numen. But Marika's numen origin is not open to interpretation. Hope this helps out.
Furthermore 'the eternal cities" is regarding in the game files to be marika's home. Marika the 'eternal" line arises from this connection. I understand not everyone is conscious of these subtler themes. Please stay tuned for my origin story video for both Radagon and Marika.
Much love
@@Ontos99 I don't have an interpretation of the jar saint forehead symbol. It's not explained in the game. It doesn't match the scarseals.
The Giant's Red Braid doesn't state Radagon is a fire giant. It's ambiguous. It could be saying the giants cursed him. It could be saying red hair is a curse itself. If Radagon is a fire giant, why doesn't he have the size or proportions of one, or have a face on his abdomen like all the other giants?
Numen are not explicitly stated to be Marika's race. They're "of the same stock" as Marika. This could mean they're the same family/clan/people, or that they share a common heritage without Marika actually being Numen. It's ambiguous. It is open to interpretation.
I don't need to provide any evidence that Shaman are not Numen. Where's the evidence that they are? Like I said, Numen aren't mentioned in the DLC. Don't you find that odd? Why introduce this new concept of Shaman if it's synonymous with Numen?
The 'game files' are not necessarily reliable. Lore, story and characters can be rewritten and the game files remain unchanged. The Putrescent Knight is called 'GloamEyedKnight' in the files, but he's a knight of St Trina in the actual game.
@@Ontos99 something interesting from watching atranished Archeologist is the “coffins” in cerulean coast are represented in the ancient ruins beneath the lands between, near Nokron and Nokstella. If we assume the numen arrived in the lands between in these stone ships, then that ancient civilization could have been founded by them and eventually go on to create the Eternal Cities. The ants in the nameless eternal cities also drop Numen runes from the corpses they have fed on, cool stuff!
@@jordanbrown3816 That's a very high-quality insight from Tarnished Archeologist. I was not aware of the coffins literally representing the ones near Nokron. Let me watch that video.
@@Ontos99 it’s his “how outsiders brought the erdtree to the lands between” video. It’s pre-dlc so may not be correct on all parts but there is definitely good insights in there
I did agree until the end. Horsent do not deserve vengeance for what they did. They were lucky Marika hated them too much. Marika didn't put them through torture as they did to her people. Yes, they both committed genocide but one is more cruel than the other.
I didnt say Hornsent deserved their retribution. I said the Hornsent wanted it and hoped Miquella's new reign would make Erdtree and Marika wrenched from divinity. I do not support the idea of vengeance in this manner.
@Ontos99 sorry maybe I mistook Hornsent's dialogue as you agreeing with him.
A great joy to watch, very insteresting :)
Glad you liked it, George
All the fanart of mogh and morgott laughing and being bros 😢
It is pretty interesting. I never realized the Radagon and Fire Giant connect. I would think Radagon's redhair would represent the influence of the Fell God on Shaman/Ascended Jar Saint Marika. Radagon would have been "birthed" from the jar ritual and not biologically from the giants. Unless the hornsent tossed in some giant...ingredients.
Man, what a messed up story 😂. Red hair is a sign of the Fell God influence. Lol, Radahn is so wholesome that he "embraced" his red-hair. He was truly too good for the Lands Between
An aside, biblically the Nephilim are connected to the serpent. At least with rebellion against the Christian Lord. Messmer is the son of Radagon.
Man I thought that spiral wrapped around the people on that statue in Enir ilim were snakes. I was looking so hard for some lore to explain them.
I'm not ashamed to admit I'd submit willingly to Miquella and his divine hair cape.
If the " foundation" of his Age of Compassion is his Circlet of Light does that mean it would have replaced the Elden Ring or the Erdtree/Scadutree if he was successful?
That's a good idea and a very plausible possibility. It would probably be replaced as the current 'Elden ring symbol' as that ring always represents the current laws of nature.Miquella aimed to change it radically in his age of compassion.
I was looking forward to this video
Divinity of the albinurics is next video!
Onto have a video idea, not albinuric related. Wanna hear it?
Great video! What music did you use around 6:18? It sounds like a remix of the Elden Beast music but it's quite unique!
I need a dlc about the giant pot outside the colosseum in caelid.
Starts to fall apart at Radagon.
Great quality!
A very good video with some extremely interesting musings, however i am not aware of any in game lore dumps that seem to imply Ragagon was present or fought in the wars of the giants or even before, which casts shadow of his parentage of Messmer during this point in time. If anything, them both having red hair, along with Melina, his sister, may actually indicate a common parent for the 3 of them, and all which that implies. And seeing as all the giants had red hair and their god was a god of unending world devouring flame....... well, by now we see that some of Marika's children have a strong fire affinity. So i propose the following hypothesis, what if Marika lay with the ancient god of the giants, and used him and his people, to fuel her ascent, only to betray them later, after they were the only thing left that could still burn her Tree?
Few final points. First, there doesn't seem to be any indication of the dragons and drakes feuding having anything to do with Marika and the Hornsent. Second, and i think most important, the Grandam refers to Marika as the seductress, not the seduct, implying it was Marika who seduced someone or something, which ended in their downfall and betrayal. Whom did she seduce is never explicitly stated. It may be that she seduced the Hornsent themselves, or the Greater will, or possibly some third outer god, like the god of the giants.
Kind of thinking...the Radagon/Marika soreseal sign kind of looks like an upside down Spiral Tree Sigil...
This is dope and all but the game says Merika has contact with the mother fingers and blessed her with the power to free her people and create the erdtree it wasn't her surviving the jar ritual
Yes of course. The elden beast and the fingers is what allows her to become a god in the shadow realm. Not the Jar ritual practices of the Hornsent which (admittedly an interesting attempt) failed in producing the desired saints. The video doesn't focus on the fingers and elden beast. They need their own separate episode explaining their contact and relation to Marika. Glad you enjoyed it
I still haven't seen any convincing theories about the identity of the white entity into which Marika reaches and grabs the gooey stuff. Any thoughts?
The golden strands of the Elden Ring making up the 'The Life Rune' she also symbolizes in 'Marika's Soreseal'.
Elden Beast music plays in the background. This is the start of Marika's Golden Order of Life Reinforcing and Death Denying theocracy.
Nothing to do with Godskins, GEQ or snakes which is something I already said countless times prior to the launch of the game in my trailer analysis.
Hope this helps. Much love.
Imo there are several problems with this theory, chief among them being that it seems to almost entirely exonerate Radagon, even though it's much more like that he was the one who orchestrated the war on the Hornsent, and the fact that the timeline suggests that the Hornsent were allowed to go on existing and practicing their culture for a long time after Marika's ascension. Radagon's Golden Order fundamentalism far better explains the crusade against those without Grace than Marika's seemingly gentle nature, and nothing about her seems to suggest that she was desperate for revenge.
Secondly, this theory completely fails to take into account the influence and actions of the Two Fingers, the Elden Beast and the Greater Will, and how these may have influenced Marika.
@@henrikhumle7255 Radagon has nothing to do with the war on the hornsent. It is of Marika and Messmer's crusade, not Radagon
@@henrikhumle7255 Nothing about her was "desperate for revenge"?
Her entire people of shamans were degraded and stuffed into jar. Of course Marika desires "desperately" for retribution
Furthermore, elden beast and greater will is inside narrative and I do take it into account with the protection of the erdtree item description. Just that this video doesnt focus on it as I'll have a separate video focusing on the greater will elden ring and the fingers
@@Ontos99 Marika, nor any item associated with her, ever suggests that she is out for revenge. You're making that up. You have no idea how she actually felt because the game never goes into detail about it; for all we know, she was benevolent enough to forgive the Hornsent for what they did. But she never extended her Grace to them, and graceless being are in opposition to the Golden Order, and Radagon is a fundamentalist, whereas Marika's Minor Erdtree is described simply as gold without order.
Do you understand what fundamentalism is? If you do, surely you would agree that it makes a lot more sense to assume that it was Radagon, not Marika, who would order Messmer to eradicate the graceless Hornsent and finally stamp out their culture, rather than Marika, who is never described as being vengeful or cruel. Marika most likely covered it up and sealed the lands of the Hornsent, her son and his army away, fearful of what might happen once their crusade had ended.
You can't just say that Marika suffered at the hands of the Hornsent and then extrapolate from that that she would want to avenge herself and her people through such brutal measures. If anything, Marika made herself a god to establish an order that would be less cruel; not AS cruel. And that implies that she forgave them, now that they were no longer a threat to her or her people who, mind you, got away and established themselves, before they were banished underground.
Nothing in the lore suggests that Marika was cruel, wrathful or malevolent. The same, however, cannot be said for Radagon, who invaded Liurnia multiple times and was a confirmed religious fanatic/fundamentalist.
For all intents and purposes, Marika was most likely a lot like Miquella. She had good intentions, but her order, in the end, was flawed, and eventually it came to rely on faith alone, rather than the healing power of her Erdtree. And we know that she did what she did under the influence of the Fingers and, by extension, the Greater Will; a critical fact that you obviously can't just ignore in a video about Marika, future video or not.
@@Ontos99 Marika and Radagon are the same person, and for all intents and purposes, Messmer could have been mislead by Radagon posing as Marika if that's what Radagon wanted. Or maybe Messmer simply doesn't distinguish between the two of them.
How can you say that "Radagon has nothing to do with it" when he IS Marika?
@@henrikhumle7255 Everything in the lore points that Marika still disdains and actively tries to supress her past.
The sheer fact that she locks up Omens below the sewers is a tastement that Marika led the crusade on the hornsent with Messmer. Both omens and hornsent are crucible touched with their horns.
The lore is extremely clear on this point. Radagon is exactly the opposite. He embraced the crucible qualities with his misbegottens. "The wolf of Radagon" along with his greatsword being in a misbegotten fight in mountaintops of the giants. If anything, Radagon is highly pro crucible and would not agree with Marika shackling both Mohg and Morgott.
Saying Marika didnt want retribution against Hornsent and all the blame lies on "Radagon" is a complete misunderstanding of the narrative.
Furthermore, Fundamentalism is all but scholarship in name which is an item description you should know about. It doesnt mean dogmatism or anything like that. Keep that in mind.
Marika is not like Miquella who tried to embrace the whole of it whether graceful or malign.
I do agree that Marika started her order with benevolent intentions but it quickly turned sour. There is a reason why Miquella regards her order as "old order".
They are not the same and Miquella's vision is not to replace her but to create a better world. To rebel against her mother. Which is again clear with his Haligtree project.
Hope these explanations help. Much love
This is why love is the only answer. Not hate or revenge or repression. Love
This is awesome! Great theory and video.
Fantastic video.
I'm not sure about the middle part - Marika being a Saint and Radagon helping her. It sound very interesting, but there is nothing in game that remotely confirms it . I loved the rest though. Does removing the rune of death upon Golden Order's creation mean that the Godskins and the Gloam-eyed Queen are involved in this? It is said that she had it before Maliketh took it from her. Could it be her body in the story trailer? Marika was probably already guided by Metyr, chosen as a emperyan and given Maliketh as her Shadow-bound beast. You didn't mention it, so...
30:23 What is the name of that epic Orchestral song at the end??
8:32 I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean by the Greater Will creating a fracture; because the 'first fracture' is really when the One Great splits between that of order and chaos (the greater will, and the frenzied flame). The Greater Will "didn't create" anything. In a world where meddling Gods fight for power and influence, the Greater Will won. And it wasn't until Marika became a God that the "other fracture" occurred (the removal of death from the cycle of life, as a force within the Elden Ring).
Would appreciate an explanation of what you meant here. Thank you!
Of course. Allow me to explain albyx. Ymir refers to Greater will as their mother, how they were all created by star dust. This is alluding to a fairly early origin timeline where life is slowly being created by the greater will within an evolutionary timeline. Not necessarily the very first 'fracture' maybe but still early enough in the timeline where the Greater will created duality out of the 'One great' where everything was in a state of non duality. This is a complex subject which is discussed very thoroughly in my 'Elden Ring's Metaphysics' video. Please give that a watch whenever you have some free time. Much love
Wow. Did the greater will intend originally to unite everyone in the lands between and metyr thinking she knew the plan instead of merging she worked to replace the order. Numen had trouble giving birth so this would give them life too.
Really interesting
Wait are you saying markia and radagon were husband and wife and converged together to become one?! That's an awesome theory
Question;
Why do you think Bayle is Messmer's " pet"?
Also i dont think that radagon is hornsent or giant, i think he is plant.radagin marika are a mingling of human and plant
cant follow you in the whole radagon/marika part... i need a kinder garden kid style explanation pls.. 1+1..
where and how did radagon first appears or manifest himself? min 15 to 19 is full of holes, pls help D:
I think Radagon is the result of the Hornsent merging Fire Giant body parts with Marika in their Jar rituals, but I don't know exactly what Ontos thinks about that of course.
@@Solibrae i can't support the theory that marika is another result (successfull or not) of the jar rituals.. because think about it.. why would she hate the hornsent if they made her in the first place? its not like "ahh they are killing my people" no.. all of them are experiments..and, if marika is a "result" (and one of the lasts ones) then she never saw nor experienced any massacre of the shaman, and them her hatred towards the hornsent have no foundation at all.. idk, something still missing
@@GonK90 She could still remember her past life before she became a "saint" and feel more connected to the Shamans than her fellow "saints". Whether she was one of the first or last created she'd still be able to know what happened to the rest of her people, from first-hand experience and/or learning it from others.
It looks like the ritual was a big part of Hornsent culture so I doubt that anybody in the Land of Shadow at the time wasn't aware of it, especially the very people being subjected to the process.
Ofc a Xenoblade fan has the best analysis
Im having a hard time following some of the logic in this vid, so forgive me if I misunderstand anything in this comment. I think there are some good points in the video, but some of the points feel somewhat headcanon-ish. Especially the bit about Radagon's feelings on the giant war feels like somewhat of a stretch. And also the bit about Marika staunchly rejecting anything that reminded her of the hornsent/crucible is also somewhat confusing, considering the status of the Crucible knights under Godfrey proving that there was at least some reverance for the crucible in early erdtree culture.
Their devetion to Godfrey might have been what gave them status and revelance.
The same way Morgott became the king of Layandell Morgott the grace given.
@@davidmingle5910Of course, David. Let me elaborate a little here for you.
Fire giant issue needs to be addressed as we know for a fact that Radagon and Marika birthed Messmer prior and afterwards "something" happened. Marika held Godfrey's hand in marriage in her reign. That "something" needs to be explained to have an inherently consistent logic. Fire giant part of the video is my solution to this problem. Feel free to rewatch that section and think about it some more
As to suppressing the curcible and horns, this is fairly self evident as omens along with misbegottens and other crucble touched races are suppressed or scorned in Marika's era. Just having crucible knights (which were commanded by Godfrey mind you) doesnt mean Marika is symphathetic to the crucible idea in general or finds it desirable as anything but a weapon against her enemies at the begining of her order.
Hope these helped explaining the logic a little more. Much love.
suppose that makes sense👍
Radagon is not of fire giant descent. there is no evidence besides his hair stating so, and even the description of the giants braid only states that radagon hated his red hair ,mot likely because it was a symbol of an enemy of the erdtree, not because it was his lineage. Radagon was a champion of the Golden Order and the Erdtree, who are thematically opposed of the fire giants. he is not of them.
So, you ignore Radagon's fire imbued children Messmer and Melina as well when you say 'Radagon has nothing to do with the Fire Giants'?
Well done. I like it
I think ur confusing the desired outcome the primeval sorcerours were trying to achieve and a consequence of their endevours.no one seeks ego death and im not really sure thats what happened to them but i am certain what happened to them.is only a byproducy of their search like madness is a byproduct of trying to understand the unknowable.
Whats funny is that the demihuman swordmaster seemed to know this
Wait what? Radagon is a fire giant? How does that work?
Where exactly did you find that radagon was indeed a fire giant kin and where did you read that he felt betrayed by them being wiped out? I'm sorry but in all the years ive played and "studied" this game theres not one confirmation on that so unless you found one idk man just seems like head canon to me
Giants red braid item description
@@Not____ApplicableSo Queen Marika was a Giant?
@@mastersonic707 no, Marika is Numen and therefore so is Radagon as they’re a single person but they’re also 2 separate entities. Just like Miquella and Trina were 1 person but they were 2 separate entities and that’s why Miquella was able to shed her from his body, so that he can ascend to godhood.
@@cosseybomb There are actually proofs other than Giant's red braid description (regarding Radagon) but I dont have time to explain everything in this video. Please stay tuned for my "origin" story analysis for both Radagon and Marika coming up in the future where the entire relationship and timeline will be explored in heavy detail and item descriptions
@@GrandWizardCaprisun I knew, I'm just questioning him