At 1:48, Bob states that the deep box is generally 9 5/8”, and the frame is 9 1/8”, so the difference would be 1/2” not 3/8”. 1/2” is bigger than 7/16”, so how is it that Bob is saying he’s getting proper bee space with those dimensions when the space between boxes is bigger than 7/16”. How is he getting the 3/8” space in between stacked boxes? The math doesn’t add up like he states. If there is 1/8” of space on the bottom, then the top would need to be 1/4”, but 1/2” minus 1/8” is 3/8”, so you’d end up with 1/2” spacing between boxes. I’m confused. The math doesn’t add up. Should the box be 9 1/2” if your frame is size 9 1/8”? For a 9 5/8” box, my math says your frames would need to be 9 1/4”. Any help on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
You are right, the math doesn't add up when compared to what is commonly considered normal bee-space. Although 9-5/8 inch is what is most commonly found in a deep box you will occasionally find manufacturers using 9-9/16 or 9-1/2, probably for this reason. I've heard it said that In the late 1800's A.I. Root and Mr. Dadant had an ongoing debate through their respective monthly publications as to what was the proper bee-space. Root said it was 3/8 inch and Dadant stated that 1/2 was correct. I wonder if the 1/2 inch difference that we see with a 9-5/8 box and 9-1/8 frames could be something left over from the past. I'm not sure. My opinion is that anything between 5/16 and 7/16 will work good enough, with 3/8 being ideal.
@@bobbinnie9872 Thanks for the reply! I thoroughly enjoy your videos and rewatch them quite often. They have been very helpful to me. Please keep making videos. Your decades of experience is invaluable! Best regards from the beehive state (Utah)!
Single brood management would be a great topic. I have 17 hives and did it on half this past spring. Started them way way way to strong. Cut queen cells all spring and finally split them all to discourage them. Worked with most. A couple still swarmed. Enjoy the channel. Great information.
The reason mice and rats can get into smaller openings is because they are the only vertebrate that can collapse their rib cage and wiggle through an opening smaller than they are. Once their through they can expand back to normal operation .
Bob, you have a future in Vegas as a Kenny Rogers impersonator, but don't quit your day job. Gotta know when to hold 'em! The resemblance is kinda spooky. Best basic equipment lecture ever!
Hi Bob, I wanted to let you know that I recently discovered a double Nuc with 4 large mice in both sides. I was horrified to find them. I had the bottom board at the 3/8 inch opening side. As I was closing the one Nuc entrance to trap them inside, a mouse came out and ran right back in through the entrance to the other Nuc. I lost both Nuc colonies unfortunately. I’m anticipating losing the other 6 colonies in Nucs to mice too. This year I’ll be sure to put mouse guards on them because if I hadn’t seen it I probably wouldn’t have believed it. Side note, as I took the frames out my husband was quick enough to grab each one. 4 less mice on our farm 😉
Sorry to hear of your problem. We rarely have mice with our 3/8 inch entrances. I wonder if your entrances could be just a bit larger than 3/8. It doesn't take much extra to cause trouble. I'm always surprised at what a mouse can squeeze through.
@@bobbinnie9872 not a problem Bob, and I certainly don’t fault you. I just wanted to let you know I apparently have ninja mice in Michigan 😂. I will double check the measurements on the bottom board, that’s a good thought because I was going off the seller’s description. I know you don’t ship bees, so I ordered 12 packages of Carniolans from Mann Lake. Thanks again Bob!!
@@bobbinnie9872 well Bob, you were right. My bottom board that I believed was 3/8 is actually 7/16. I checked my Flow Hives and those are spot on 3/8. So, lesson learned, don’t take a measurement at face value, double check. I appreciate your help and suggestion. I have one question about the frames from the lost Nucs. There are still frames full of capped honey. Is it safe to still use them? Also, the other frames of drawn comb? I wasn’t sure about the mice and any nastiness that they might have done to them. I thought of freezing them, but didn’t know. I appreciate any advice you can offer.
@@sunsetheritage Freezing is a good way to store comb and honey if you have the freezer space. I was lucky enough to get a good deal on cooler and freezer space in a local food bank and routinely store many pallets of extracting supers and comb from failed colonies there. We store comb in the cooler and honey in the freezer. I've always had good luck with colonies cleaning up old mouse damage so I don't think there is anything to nasty for the bees there.
@@bobbinnie9872 thank you so much for your help. I hated the thought of having to toss out all those frames. Ironically Home Depot just delivered a 25cu ft chest freezer yesterday that I bought just for my bees and goat milk. I sure am looking forward to a new year of working with my bees. Thank you again for your time!!
You put a lot of information on those new Beek's. With the frame feeder you can only put 8 frames in a 10 frame box. This leaves extra space in the box. Does this cause the bees to fill that space with burr comb? Where in the box do you leave the extra space - uniformly spaced or extra on the outer walls with the frames against each other? I Thanks Bob for your sharing the knowledge.
We use a 1 1\2 gallon feeder which creates about 1\4 inch extra space in the box. We usually keep the feeder against the wall and let the frame on the other side swell a bit. This also can create some burr comb on the other side but we consider it minor and live with it. We do make an effort to keep our frames tight together to avoid creating buildup between them which makes them get tighter and tighter in the box over time.
I will complicate things a bit. I believe that the are four sizes of ten frame boxes: Deep, western, medium, shallow. All the older equipment I've seen the "western" is in between the height of a deep and a medium.
That would be a 7-5/8 in. When I kept bees in Oregon everyone called a 6-5/8 a western or an Illinois. In Georgia we call that a medium. Different areas may mix the terms up.
Visited your store on the way to highlands, very nice! Would you do a video describing swarm cells, supercedure cells and queen cells? Hello from pike road Alabama
They do excessive burr comb in all plastic frames because the bottom bar is too thin. I solved that issue when I went to thicker bottoms on mann lake frames. 1/4 bottom bars are too thin.
Hi Bob, great video! My question is, can you stain or Thompson's water seal (the exterior) of beehives to protect from rain elements instead of painting?
Yes, but I would let them season and air out a little before using them. I have a video coming out in a few days that will address wood preservatives for beehives.
Why does an inner cover have a recess to create the 3/8 bee space but the migratory cover sits flush. I am looking to start building migratory lids (less equipment) and wanted to be sure I was capturing any and all secrets. The one in the video seems to be built very similarly to your bottom boards with 3/4 plywood and recessed into the end boards. I know with bottom boards you create a 3/8 and 3/4 side based on your dado, wondered if you do anything similar for the migratory lids. Cant seem to find a video of you making the migratory lids.
I hope to make a video about lids soon. Flat migratory lids are simply made for the convenience and cost effectiveness. They allow for a 1/4 inch space which is barely enough for bees to use and with a bit of propolis buildup they do OK. No secrets, just simpler and less parts.
Bob Binnie at Blue Ridge Honey Company: looking forward to 2020 Nucs at Forsyth Beekeepers. Warm weather has my colonies bursting at the seams. Imagine you are going full blast now.
Hi Joe. The fall nucs you guys are getting overwintered small but are coming along well. Should be ready on time and yes we are starting to get busy. Thanks.
Do you use drone foundation year around? I have seen your video on putting up packaged bees and I don't remember seeing them. You raised a good point on using them to decrease drone comb on normal foundation. I may have to buy a couple. Thanks Bob.
We do leave our green drone frames in all year. We almost always put them next to a wall where the bees will use them for raising drones when they want and store honey in them the rest of the year. You got my curiosity up so I looked at the video and most of the colonies had one but only in one box. We try to have at least one in every colony but do occasionally miss one.
If you ever get the chance to go through and re-edit this video…there are some places where the static overwhelms the voice and important information is lost. This is particularly difficult for the hearing impaired who have the sound increased to hear what is said. Editing the sound out and replacing it with voice over would really be wonderful! I’d like to save this to come back to but it was very hard to listen to. Thanks for a great video! The information I could hear was really great!
Hi, here in the UK we don't have inner covers with a "notch". So my question is why? My first impression is I would worry about robbing by other bees and wasps?
It allows condensation to escape. You are right though , it could provide a "robbing entrance" if the colony is weak. Brother Adam, in his book "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey" made mention of needing to provide moisture a way to escape in your moist climate in the winter.
@@bobbinnie9872 ok makes sense. I will give it a try on my stronger colony this winter, after getting my better half to modify one of my current "crown boards" as we call them in the uk! lol
We are blessed to not have a major problem with beetles so I have never done anything. If we have trouble it's generally because a colony is compromised in some way. Our best defense is healthy colonies and full sun. We definitely see more when colonies are in the shade.
Hi Bob, I really enjoy learning from your videos. I am a first year hobby, backyard beekeeper here in southern Oregon. I went with all western size 8 frame equipment and am noticing that that I can actually fit 9 frames in the boxes. With 9 I’m sure bee space is violated so do you think I should just push all the frames to the middle or to one side? I really appreciate your advice.
If your 8 frame equipment is the correct dimension it should not be able to hold 9 frames if they are also the right dimension. As to your question, we always squeeze our frames tightly to the center.
I think it depends on where you buy your frames. 9 Dadant frames fit in my 8 frame boxes. No problem with bee space, the bees like it just fine, but 1) Because they are tight, they are harder to get out when doing inspections, and 2) the combs won't be drawn out as thick for honey supers. So I sometimes have 9 frames in my brood boxes but always 8 frames spaced out evenly in my honey supers for easy uncapping and extraction.
For most people it's best to start in the spring. Nucs and packages come with a fresh queen in the spring so you shouldn't have to worry about requeening the first year and this also gives you the opportunity to grow in skill as the bees grow into the season.
Since the queen is the one who lays the drones and the workers, then isn't it the queen who decides where to lay the drones? Why would she be attracted to the drone frame when she has all the other frames to lay on? Also, if the workers do build cells on the drone frame how do they get the queen to go over to the side to lay eggs? Thanks
Many say that the queen doesn't run the colony but that the colony runs the queen. This is only partially true. The colony definitely chooses what cells to build and which cells are prepared for laying but the queen distinguishes what these cells are and chooses where to lay. Read this study for more. www.sciencemag.org/news/2007/11/queen-bees-control-sex-young-after-all
Interesting how different (in details) the boxes are. But why do you have gaps on top and on the bottom. Why not just have the bee space on the top or the bottom. I guess this would be easier to manufacture and you only need to measure one distance. But maybe I am overlooking something?
You want your boxes to be interchangeable. Therefore, you use a bottom board to establish the gap (and size the gap depending on the season/small gap for winter). You still should have an upper escape hole, and hence the telescoping cover, and the top board that can be put in winter (notch up to keep drafts out of the hive better) or notch down (easier egress).. just my $0.015 worth
Ether way would work fine. Most inner covers also have a thin side and a deeper side. Traditionally the notch being up provides th proper bee space underneath.
At 1:48, Bob states that the deep box is generally 9 5/8”, and the frame is 9 1/8”, so the difference would be 1/2” not 3/8”. 1/2” is bigger than 7/16”, so how is it that Bob is saying he’s getting proper bee space with those dimensions when the space between boxes is bigger than 7/16”. How is he getting the 3/8” space in between stacked boxes? The math doesn’t add up like he states. If there is 1/8” of space on the bottom, then the top would need to be 1/4”, but 1/2” minus 1/8” is 3/8”, so you’d end up with 1/2” spacing between boxes. I’m confused. The math doesn’t add up. Should the box be 9 1/2” if your frame is size 9 1/8”? For a 9 5/8” box, my math says your frames would need to be 9 1/4”. Any help on this would be appreciated. Thanks.
You are right, the math doesn't add up when compared to what is commonly considered normal bee-space. Although 9-5/8 inch is what is most commonly found in a deep box you will occasionally find manufacturers using 9-9/16 or 9-1/2, probably for this reason. I've heard it said that In the late 1800's A.I. Root and Mr. Dadant had an ongoing debate through their respective monthly publications as to what was the proper bee-space. Root said it was 3/8 inch and Dadant stated that 1/2 was correct. I wonder if the 1/2 inch difference that we see with a 9-5/8 box and 9-1/8 frames could be something left over from the past. I'm not sure. My opinion is that anything between 5/16 and 7/16 will work good enough, with 3/8 being ideal.
@@bobbinnie9872 Thanks for the reply! I thoroughly enjoy your videos and rewatch them quite often. They have been very helpful to me. Please keep making videos. Your decades of experience is invaluable! Best regards from the beehive state (Utah)!
Sounds like you already have figured it out….but you were VERY specific and repetitive in letting him know his mistake…so helpful.
You, sir, are a wealth of information! Thank You for putting that seminar together, and sharing it via UA-cam.
always nice to watch new methods in the beekeeping life" great set up
Single brood management would be a great topic. I have 17 hives and did it on half this past spring. Started them way way way to strong. Cut queen cells all spring and finally split them all to discourage them. Worked with most. A couple still swarmed. Enjoy the channel. Great information.
Thanks, good idea.
Just got into bee keeping Bob these lectures and UA-cam have been no end of help ty
👌
Thanks.
Never thought about the light and bees not drawing comb to the bottom,good point Bob
Thanks
The reason mice and rats can get into smaller openings is because they are the only vertebrate that can collapse their rib cage and wiggle through an opening smaller than they are. Once their through they can expand back to normal operation .
Ouch.
Bob sounds and looks like Kenny Rogers brother!pretty cool, Great info.
Bob, you have a future in Vegas as a Kenny Rogers impersonator, but don't quit your day job. Gotta know when to hold 'em! The resemblance is kinda spooky. Best basic equipment lecture ever!
Hi Bob, I wanted to let you know that I recently discovered a double Nuc with 4 large mice in both sides. I was horrified to find them. I had the bottom board at the 3/8 inch opening side. As I was closing the one Nuc entrance to trap them inside, a mouse came out and ran right back in through the entrance to the other Nuc. I lost both Nuc colonies unfortunately. I’m anticipating losing the other 6 colonies in Nucs to mice too. This year I’ll be sure to put mouse guards on them because if I hadn’t seen it I probably wouldn’t have believed it.
Side note, as I took the frames out my husband was quick enough to grab each one. 4 less mice on our farm 😉
Sorry to hear of your problem. We rarely have mice with our 3/8 inch entrances. I wonder if your entrances could be just a bit larger than 3/8. It doesn't take much extra to cause trouble. I'm always surprised at what a mouse can squeeze through.
@@bobbinnie9872 not a problem Bob, and I certainly don’t fault you. I just wanted to let you know I apparently have ninja mice in Michigan 😂. I will double check the measurements on the bottom board, that’s a good thought because I was going off the seller’s description. I know you don’t ship bees, so I ordered 12 packages of Carniolans from Mann Lake. Thanks again Bob!!
@@bobbinnie9872 well Bob, you were right. My bottom board that I believed was 3/8 is actually 7/16. I checked my Flow Hives and those are spot on 3/8. So, lesson learned, don’t take a measurement at face value, double check. I appreciate your help and suggestion. I have one question about the frames from the lost Nucs. There are still frames full of capped honey. Is it safe to still use them? Also, the other frames of drawn comb? I wasn’t sure about the mice and any nastiness that they might have done to them. I thought of freezing them, but didn’t know. I appreciate any advice you can offer.
@@sunsetheritage Freezing is a good way to store comb and honey if you have the freezer space. I was lucky enough to get a good deal on cooler and freezer space in a local food bank and routinely store many pallets of extracting supers and comb from failed colonies there. We store comb in the cooler and honey in the freezer. I've always had good luck with colonies cleaning up old mouse damage so I don't think there is anything to nasty for the bees there.
@@bobbinnie9872 thank you so much for your help. I hated the thought of having to toss out all those frames. Ironically Home Depot just delivered a 25cu ft chest freezer yesterday that I bought just for my bees and goat milk. I sure am looking forward to a new year of working with my bees. Thank you again for your time!!
You put a lot of information on those new Beek's. With the frame feeder you can only put 8 frames in a 10 frame box. This leaves extra space in the box. Does this cause the bees to fill that space with burr comb? Where in the box do you leave the extra space - uniformly spaced or extra on the outer walls with the frames against each other? I Thanks Bob for your sharing the knowledge.
We use a 1 1\2 gallon feeder which creates about 1\4 inch extra space in the box. We usually keep the feeder against the wall and let the frame on the other side swell a bit. This also can create some burr comb on the other side but we consider it minor and live with it. We do make an effort to keep our frames tight together to avoid creating buildup between them which makes them get tighter and tighter in the box over time.
I will complicate things a bit. I believe that the are four sizes of ten frame boxes: Deep, western, medium, shallow. All the older equipment I've seen the "western" is in between the height of a deep and a medium.
That would be a 7-5/8 in. When I kept bees in Oregon everyone called a 6-5/8 a western or an Illinois. In Georgia we call that a medium. Different areas may mix the terms up.
Visited your store on the way to highlands, very nice! Would you do a video describing swarm cells, supercedure cells and queen cells? Hello from pike road Alabama
Hi Jay. It's on my list. There's already a little information in our video "Is it OK to use swarm cells to raise queens?" Thanks
Great video. When you assembly brood boxes with finger joints do you use nails or screws and what size?
We usually use #8 x 2 in. Torx head screws.
They do excessive burr comb in all plastic frames because the bottom bar is too thin. I solved that issue when I went to thicker bottoms on mann lake frames. 1/4 bottom bars are too thin.
Hi Bob, great video! My question is, can you stain or Thompson's water seal (the exterior) of beehives to protect from rain elements instead of painting?
Yes, but I would let them season and air out a little before using them. I have a video coming out in a few days that will address wood preservatives for beehives.
I use foundation less frames. I'm surprised you neglected to mention them.
Good point. I always forget something when I'm trying to hurry.
He is Bob Ross of bee keeping
Why does an inner cover have a recess to create the 3/8 bee space but the migratory cover sits flush. I am looking to start building migratory lids (less equipment) and wanted to be sure I was capturing any and all secrets. The one in the video seems to be built very similarly to your bottom boards with 3/4 plywood and recessed into the end boards. I know with bottom boards you create a 3/8 and 3/4 side based on your dado, wondered if you do anything similar for the migratory lids. Cant seem to find a video of you making the migratory lids.
I hope to make a video about lids soon. Flat migratory lids are simply made for the convenience and cost effectiveness. They allow for a 1/4 inch space which is barely enough for bees to use and with a bit of propolis buildup they do OK. No secrets, just simpler and less parts.
Well done Sir. Standard is good.
Thanks
Bob Binnie at Blue Ridge Honey Company: looking forward to 2020 Nucs at Forsyth Beekeepers. Warm weather has my colonies bursting at the seams. Imagine you are going full blast now.
Hi Joe. The fall nucs you guys are getting overwintered small but are coming along well. Should be ready on time and yes we are starting to get busy. Thanks.
you said deep box 9 5/8 high, how wide is the deep box, ty for teaching/ info
Standard width for ten frame equipment in this country is 16-1/4 inch.
Do you use drone foundation year around? I have seen your video on putting up packaged bees and I don't remember seeing them. You raised a good point on using them to decrease drone comb on normal foundation. I may have to buy a couple. Thanks Bob.
We do leave our green drone frames in all year. We almost always put them next to a wall where the bees will use them for raising drones when they want and store honey in them the rest of the year. You got my curiosity up so I looked at the video and most of the colonies had one but only in one box. We try to have at least one in every colony but do occasionally miss one.
If you ever get the chance to go through and re-edit this video…there are some places where the static overwhelms the voice and important information is lost. This is particularly difficult for the hearing impaired who have the sound increased to hear what is said. Editing the sound out and replacing it with voice over would really be wonderful! I’d like to save this to come back to but it was very hard to listen to. Thanks for a great video! The information I could hear was really great!
Sorry for that.
Thanks appreciate you sharing your experience.
Thank you for your comment.
Hi, here in the UK we don't have inner covers with a "notch". So my question is why? My first impression is I would worry about robbing by other bees and wasps?
It allows condensation to escape. You are right though , it could provide a "robbing entrance" if the colony is weak. Brother Adam, in his book "Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey" made mention of needing to provide moisture a way to escape in your moist climate in the winter.
@@bobbinnie9872 ok makes sense. I will give it a try on my stronger colony this winter, after getting my better half to modify one of my current "crown boards" as we call them in the uk! lol
Bob….may I ask what the weapon of choice is for hive beetles?
We are blessed to not have a major problem with beetles so I have never done anything. If we have trouble it's generally because a colony is compromised in some way. Our best defense is healthy colonies and full sun. We definitely see more when colonies are in the shade.
Hi Bob, I really enjoy learning from your videos. I am a first year hobby, backyard beekeeper here in southern Oregon. I went with all western size 8 frame equipment and am noticing that that I can actually fit 9 frames in the boxes. With 9 I’m sure bee space is violated so do you think I should just push all the frames to the middle or to one side? I really appreciate your advice.
If your 8 frame equipment is the correct dimension it should not be able to hold 9 frames if they are also the right dimension. As to your question, we always squeeze our frames tightly to the center.
I think it depends on where you buy your frames. 9 Dadant frames fit in my 8 frame boxes. No problem with bee space, the bees like it just fine, but 1) Because they are tight, they are harder to get out when doing inspections, and 2) the combs won't be drawn out as thick for honey supers. So I sometimes have 9 frames in my brood boxes but always 8 frames spaced out evenly in my honey supers for easy uncapping and extraction.
I am interested in starting a backyard setup. When is the best time in the year to start?
For most people it's best to start in the spring. Nucs and packages come with a fresh queen in the spring so you shouldn't have to worry about requeening the first year and this also gives you the opportunity to grow in skill as the bees grow into the season.
So what is the notch for in the inner cover? You stated "a good inner cover will have a notch".
It helps condensation to escape upward.
So do you slide the telescoping lid over against the notch so that it does not become a second entrance?
Hi Bob. Do you mark your queens so they’re easier to find?
We carry a marking pen with us and mark every queen we see to make her easy to spot next time.
love this guys
Thank you.
Oops I meant Bruce lol😂
www.morganhoney.com/
Thanks from orinimelissa
Which company are you referring to when you refer to Bruce’s company
morganhoney.com/
Thank you
Since the queen is the one who lays the drones and the workers, then isn't it the queen who decides where to lay the drones?
Why would she be attracted to the drone frame when she has all the other frames to lay on?
Also, if the workers do build cells on the drone frame how do they get the queen to go over to the side to lay eggs? Thanks
Many say that the queen doesn't run the colony but that the colony runs the queen. This is only partially true. The colony definitely chooses what cells to build and which cells are prepared for laying but the queen distinguishes what these cells are and chooses where to lay. Read this study for more. www.sciencemag.org/news/2007/11/queen-bees-control-sex-young-after-all
Interesting how different (in details) the boxes are. But why do you have gaps on top and on the bottom. Why not just have the bee space on the top or the bottom. I guess this would be easier to manufacture and you only need to measure one distance. But maybe I am overlooking something?
No, you're not overlooking anything. It's just someones idea from years ago and it stuck.
You want your boxes to be interchangeable. Therefore, you use a bottom board to establish the gap (and size the gap depending on the season/small gap for winter). You still should have an upper escape hole, and hence the telescoping cover, and the top board that can be put in winter (notch up to keep drafts out of the hive better) or notch down (easier egress).. just my $0.015 worth
What size is the hole in the migratory cover?
70mm to fit a standard quart jar lid.
@@bobbinnie9872 thanks for the reply. Lord willing were going to make a drive down to the store Saturday.
"Especially with ladies." lol
Supper
Thank you.
Why does the notch should be faced up?
Ether way would work fine. Most inner covers also have a thin side and a deeper side. Traditionally the notch being up provides th proper bee space underneath.
👌🍷
Unique comment. Thanks, I think.
Bob Yeah mate great informative video, thanks
Do you use a queen excluder?
We use excluders when we have singles but rarely on double deeps and yes we do have to occasionally contend with brood when we do that.
@@bobbinnie9872 thank you