Personally, I think it should be tied to our soul crystals, where they level and give us new abilities and stats. That way you're also forced to have it equipped to access higher levels and gameplay is directly tied to them. They're important, so they should have more emphasis placed on them
I can agree to this more so if there is a story element that points us to being [Redacted] if not finding other fragments of us being [Redacted] as we should be able to imbue our own power into the crystals or something like that
I think it starts becoming enhancing the Soul Crystals. If the answer to story progression is going to new, far away places, say other reflections or other planets, they could probably easily find a way to hand wave it such that these other realms have their own independent leveling system like Eureka. And then completing the story and maxing the level (lets say we'll keep it at 10 levels) in that realm unlocks a trait for the character that enhances the strength of your Soul such that it empowers your Soul Crystals with stat boosts, perhaps new traits and then a capstone skill when the job is at max level no matter where you are. I'm sure they could still find a way to do this if we're sticking with Etheirys, too, though I spent all my creativity on the first part of this comment, hahaha! They would have to explain why places like other reflections, flashbacks, etc weren't impacted, but I think this could be a worthwhile idea to consider.
@@HidaMan @ザン Basically exactly like the FFXI solution Mr. Happy described. It's also what is described with this thread, only with a different label - a max level cap with a separate power leveling system. GW2 is most commonly known for it, but it wasn't the first to do it, and several other games have adopted it too. Personally, I like the lore concept behind implementing this solution described here. It achieves the same idea that has worked so well for FFXI, GW2, D3, etc, but fits the lore of FFXIV.
In 6.1 when Tataru gave you the Unending Codex she said it was in case you ever hit your head and forgot the last ten years. It would be hilarious if that was how new players were handled. Start at 7.0 or 8.0 option has you wake up in an inn with no memory but the Unending Codex to tell you about everything that already happend. Preferably with the option to go back and New Game+ everything if you decided to later.
A brilliant idea 💡 And one that fits the style of ffxiv. I mean, in Realm Reborn, I remember the story going on about how the name Warriors of Light stayed with the people but noone remembered their faces.
@@romangolob2279 I think the amnesia would only trigger for those choosing to start at 7.0 or whenever the skip is chosen to start, but for people who played through everything it would continue as normal. No head bonking needed
@@carlako3238 Yeah. They already have alternate dialogues for people who have completed different stuff and ARR had different dialogues for people who had played in 1.0. If I recall what I was told correctly Minfilia recognized you, but no one else did. And I think they would still want to have an option for people to do it either way.
Yes it will never happens. Makes zero sense. No idea why he even mentioned it. Edit: i meant that i dont know how Mrhappy could consider it as a possible solution (who knows i may be wrong), though it should be mentioned as a problem of course.
At one point they might want to do it, bcs the game story will get bigger and bigger, and at one point starting from very beginning (2.0) to get to end game just doesnt sound realistic anymore. And bcs endwalker ends a saga from 1.0, they may be able to give new players option to start from 7.0 while giving all past story information ingame
They're making a product with the express purpose of reaching as most audience as possible. At one point the story, no matter how good it is, becomes a liability when you mention to any new players that the story is 300 hours long -- Nevermind that the first 50 hours of ARR stretch is awfully paced, and the first 200 hours of the gameplay being bad because of the accumulated skill pruning of earlier expansions.
@@DawnAfternoon thats a problem from vertical MMOs progression. The solution is usualy Horizontaly (unless they revolutionize the genre with a very smart solution)
Besides the discussion about what to do after level 100, I think getting to 100 should be something more interesting than just getting the last level. I think we should level to 99 naturally and then exp stops, then each class has a unique story challenge to complete to get that last level. Some classes might have to take down a mighty foe, others might have to gather ancient knowledge to have a mental breakthrough. Could be a cool flavour and tie back to the good old job quests.
I had a thought for 7.0, since Yoshi P has gone on record to say the current void story is ending in 6.55 and a major event will start off the next 10 years of expansions. What if they split the game up into Sagas, or some other appropriate term? Like we just finished the Hydaelyn-Zodiark Saga and 7.0 will start the... idk, the Merycidia Saga or whatever. Each Saga could be a self-contained story with its own start point so when you make a new character, you can choose to either start in 2.0 The Hydaelyn-Zodiark Saga or start in 7.0 Merycidia Saga with the Unending Codex filled out. This option wouldn't really be a "story skip" since it won't unlock the previous Saga's content, BUT if you DO pick to start in 7.0, you could choose to start 2.0 later if you do want that extra story.
HOLY cow, you have to get this idea out there, because i would love a concept like this. I want to see this implemented that way even if your a new player and your too far away but you want to get to the newer stories you can just go right to it making a new character
I honestly hope 7.0 is another war story. Like I genuinely love storylines where the plot is driven forward by some kind of war, like Saving Private Ryan for example (yes I've read the book and seen the film respectively. Both are great in my opinion)
This is basically exactly what i was gonna say. They could also make a new starting quest line till like level 10-15 or w/e that will actually teach people how to play the game because thats been a major complaint since the beginning of time then at the end of the quest line you can choose to go with the story of the scions or w/e this new story is. You can also use it as a way to get to know a few of the major characters that may appear in both stories and branch from there.
This works so much. All they would have to do is; assuming for a moment 7.0 is the 'golden cities of the new world+merycidia or another shard, etc. They would just have to encapsulate 90 levels of abilities into say, 30 for the 7.0 areas, This gives new players the ability to learn, while old players will still retain their legacy levels when venturing to older areas. Give new players a level 90 boost potion, since that will only be useful if wanting to do old world stuff via NG+, without the need to 'grind'. A major thing that I don't recall if Happy touched on it or not. DoL/DoH jobs. all of those are very heavily tied to the old world. So unless they just say screw it and keep raising the level cap for crafting and gathering. A new player without access to old materials being 'stuck' in the 7.0 saga, because they would have to go and unlock 2.0-6.0 areas. SE could alleviate this by starting fresh, making any and all recipes and their materials from 7.0 onwards come from 7.0+ areas and truly abandoning anything below. But again, they would have to design an entirely new leveling experience for crafting and gathering, alongside battle jobs.
I think adding levels without calling them levels would just add confusion. If the number itself is too intimidating, then ARR alone being "level squished" to cover ~30 levels instead of 50 would help. But past that, I think solving the "catch up"/"level jump" question for new players should be a separate discussion.
Just a comment: I needed (and enjoyed) every single level in ARR. I was completely new to gaming and needed the slow learning curve. I think that the ability to purchase the level skips from the online store is good enough for those players that are experienced. There should be and hopefully always will be new players to gaming and there needs to be a way to learn how to play this kind of game. Fast forwarding through levels won’t do it for newbies like me and newbies will keep the game alive.
@@aislingeach7834 I would imagine that if they end ARR at level 30, your level would also increase more slowly, so I don't think there would be a big difference. You would still have pretty much the same skills at the same dungeons/points in the story, all that would change is the number displayed. I would also expect them to put the job upgrade at lv20 instead of lv30.
the levels as they are should remain, the last stat squish still created some issues here and there since some things did not function correctly at smaller numbers, they did eventually fix that too, but they could maybe have it level 100 max and stop there, no point adding levels indefinitely
The problem with the "once you're level 35 you can immediately go to the HW story" or something like that is how the story is written and paced. Starts of expansions are never actually where a story starts. And while there are good spots to end the story at that after e.g. most .3 patch quests that doesn't mean the .4 patch quests necessarily are good points to start either. Those also expect you to know what happened before and just being thrown in at those points would mean the player would take a while to find their bearing in the story which could alienate them just as much or more as having to play through the whole story in the first place.
That level squish will NOT work. That would mean not only squishing player levels but weapons levels, gear levels, enemy levels and thus also stats and ballancing. And that for the main game AND 4/5 expansions would be an absolute nightmare to do as developer
I’ve never understood being intimidated by a level cap. The MSQ is more than enough to get a job to max level by the time it’s over, and you’ll likely have to switch to a second job before it is just to not waste XP. And after that, leveling your other jobs only takes about a week or two with casually grinding it through dailies, without any sort of XP buffs. Add some in and it’s even faster. If someone genuinely sees a level 90, or 100, or 110, or 150 level cap and says “well that’s too much for me, I’m out” I personally don’t think they’re the type of person that would enjoy this game. The MSQ is long because it has a story to tell, yes. But the length also allows for plenty of time to actually learn the game. I don’t understand the need to rush to the endgame when you wouldn’t even be competent enough to play at that level anyways if you did. I personally had a friend that when we got him into the game, he level skipped Dragoon and had no clue how to play it. He attempted to play level 80-90 content without even knowing what positionals or combos were. And I can attest to seeing plenty of level skipped players, or players on new servers with “the road to 80” buffs that have zero idea what they’re doing because they rushed to that endgame content. So imo, story and level skips or squishes should NOT be encouraged. People need time to be able to learn how to play the game. Endgame isn’t going anywhere. If you rush to it, all you’ll be doing is wasting your own time, and up to 7 other people’s time depending on what content you’re attempting to do.
I agree totally. I needed the slow journey leveling through ARR and all the expansions. I had no clue how to play when I started and needed the time and effort through low levels to learn. My main character’s profession is at level 90 but I am still learning how to play. It is not easy when you are new to all this and it doesn’t come fast at least not for me. I left WoW because it didn’t have the story path and I couldn’t figure out what I was doing. This has been the right game for me.
Yeah reducing LVL 100 or lvl 110 to like lvl 60 just sounds lame and i had pretty much all of my tanks at LVL 90 before i even finished Stormblood due to reaping all the daily "adventurer needed" bonuses for XP and GIL And about the skipping, if you are not a FREE TO PLAY players, you can just lvl other jobs via FRONTLINE game mode, since you can change jobs at the start of the match and still get XP for the job that you want to lvl up, i basically lvl´d up my ASTRO to lvl 70 from lvl 40 via the frontline system and then i had a ton of PVE skills that i had no idea of how to use :D
@@ambercarbuncle1440p If you have a friend at max level doing cool stuff and you just start out having months of story ahead until you can actually play the cool stuff with them is not very nice. Just had a sprout recently tell me exactly that.
Guild Wars 2 has never raised their level cap passed the base game. There are absolutely ways to make levels moot at a certain point and offer meaningful progression through other avenues. I have faith in Square's team that they will find a solution that works for their game if that is the route that they want to go. I'll be here to check it out.
gw2 has more horizontal progression than 14 so it can get take full advantage of the different build variety already existing in the game when making new gear and content. 14 doesn't really have that and would need a total overhaul which isn't on the table. still doesn't mean they need to go the way of the WoW and stretch the levels past 100 i'm sure they'll make improvements and maybe even prune the levels. lord knows some jobs could use their full kit earlier on but it'd be impossible to tell how that could effect older synced stuff.
The GW2 way is really taxing on development I think, because each expansion each profession gets a new specialisation which is like a new profession of it own, so instead of just adding one or two jobs each expansions they kind of add 9 new jobs each expansion.
That's why I said that FF would find a solution that works for their game. Copy-pasting GW2's answer to progression would not work for FF, but stands as a successful example of halting the leveling curve being viable.
A level squish sounds simple enough... but it'd destroy making use of all the craftable and dungeon gear, along with making a lot of the crafting materials seemingly useless. I don't see how SE would manage to squish in all the different gear with a level squish.
The main issue I think is having (or not), new skills. Some jobs already have too much to be comfortable. If you just remove older skills and make new ones, keeping the same number of actions to place on the hotbar, you now have the issue of having 30 something skills divided over 100 levels.
some skills could just get a new version like some do already. Imagine your lv100 job has a completely different set of skills from say the lv70 version. Could make for super interesting roulettes
I may be in the minority, but i think it's fine to just go to lvl100, then 110 and keep going. If need be they can just do a stat squish to avoid number overflow like they did in EW launch, but keep the levels.
You're definitely in the minority there. I rather not go through another stat squish every 50 to 100 levels. There will also have to be the occasional major job balance, because at a certain level a job would be either too strong or weak. If he decides to stop at level 100, then I'm going to be content with it. Eventually they're going to say we cannot continue increasing the level cap just to increase it. I rather not go through another stat squish because the last boss of the current savage raid hp is in the billions because of how high our stats are becoming....again. As a player that plays mainly dps roles, I never felt as squishy as I did as a level 80 drg, who used to have over 120k hp before the 6.0 stat squish. This is just my thoughts though.
@@dawgyv72 I never played any Korean MMO for more than 10 levels and I agree with him. I don't see why MMOs need to keep their levels between 1 and 100 all the time. Maplestory didn't and Maplestory is tons of fun.
The story skip conversation is interesting to me because if there was a free option to skip the story, I probably would have taken it because of how long and daunting it looked to catch up - but I also probably wouldn't have attached to the game and would have likely quit after a month or two. The story is the only thing that separates this game from other MMOs for me, and FFXIV is the first MMO in 20 years that I played for longer than the first 30 days. The story made me so invested in the world and characters that I not only got to endgame but cared about it because of how the story had made me care about the characters and world, and I'm now on my second year of playing. So while I think it's a valid discussion on how to improve the new player experience, I think that there's a fine line between making it easier for new players to get into the game and kneecapping one of the game's most unique and important selling points.
Yeah, there is no perfect solution to that. I can't agree with you more about dropping MMOs and not caring while in FF I was not only connected to the story, to the characters in the story, but to my character. I felt like I was always a part of it and I became immersed in my main. I started caring about what my character looks like, if I have good glam for going into the desert of to ice cold zones. In WoW or other games I never cared about any of that. I was there for gameplay only, while FF makes you invested into everything. I am glad there was no instant-skip of story because if there was and I took it, I would probably quit soon after
If a story skip is done, it has to be done right. Maybe allow players an abridged version of the story rather than the real thing. Throw in a few cinematics instead of letting players try to recruit the company of heroes or something, that already cuts a few hours down. Maybe allow players the option to play the original content, or to get an abridged cinematic of a lengthy quest. Do that a few times and players will advance much quicker without sacrificing too many story. More importantly, that puts the agency of how the story can be experienced with the player. So when it catches their attention and they are not in a hurry, they can take their time, and players that are more inclined to preserve time can grab the abridged version knowing they won't miss out too much. As far as level capping is concerned. My problem with mastery levels has always been it's just level 2.0. It kicks the can down the road and makes things more complicated. A squish is more elegant. It also kicks the can down the road, but it doesn't throw an additional roadblock in front of it. Plus it's much easier to explain and wrap your head around. Try expaining that endwalker caps your characters, but then you get thingamajig levels on all characters. Just the extra and complicated bloat on the classes/jobs panel alone makes me frightened. Those systems have merit, other games have made something of them and it can work. But I remain convinced that just squishing things is easier for everyone. Whatever they choose, I just hope I can still smash the everflying fluff out of old raids unsynced for my weekly khloe book.
I don’t like the idea of paying real money to not play the game. I’d rather you can do some work in-game to earn a story skip. Like grind out a bunch of poetics. An alternative to doing the story, but not making the story obsolete.
Skipping the story would only hurt the game, there's no benefit to be gained out of it. Also throwing a new player into the endgame with all of the endgame system is ensuring they wont last a month.
I like the system of guild wars 2 where you have mastery rank that acts as its own leveling pace. It could of course come with its own skills but feels like a good alternative
Just make sure it is not mandatory in content. Like leyline gliding is mandatory to clear xera. I had to spend so many hours in maguuma to get that mastery. It was not exactly very fun
@@medivh1035 Fortunately, that was the only mistake GW2 made, everything else mastery related, is gucci. It'd be a good addition to FF14 IMO, good suggestion.
Adding to that with the story skip stuff look at how GW2 handles the journals that you can choose which expac/story you want to play as long as you meet the minimum requirements (though they cap at 80 in the core game and went to masteries so FF would have to do some serious rework on their leveling system to support something similar)
Idk, I've played gw2 since 2012 but Mastery ranks always felt like a grind to me... And they just kept growing each expansion. Locking mechanics like gliding and mounts behind them also frustrates new players and drives them disinterested (though I know they improved it by giving them the raptor early on). Also the actual levels in gw2 lost their impact altogether. Leveling to 80 is basically a tutorial... Eventually you just skip leveling on new characters altogether. As a concept of extra levels after endgame, Masteries are not a bad idea, but they still add up with each new expansion. So a grind for mastery rank 455 for example would seem daunting (though in gw2 it is account wide I guess). Numbers will have to be squished anyhow, because it just feels random, unachievable and disheartening to new players. Never mind the XP grind Zzz... It reminds me of Hongmoon levels in Blade & Soul, and those were squished too iirc. We don't talk about that game though.
I think if anyone new coming into an MMO is intimidated by a level cap, maybe shouldn't be playing MMOs? That's kinda part of the MMO experience is going thru a LOT of content. I know I have a bias cause I've been playing them half my life, but I never understood that intimidation. Unless it's someone trying to rush to end game just take your time and play as much or as little as you want and you'll get there eventually. Not to mention FF sells straight up job, story and level skips.
I would really love to see something like the merit/job point system in FFXIV as much as I'd like to see gear sets that introduce additional effects instead of higher item levels. But I won't get my hopes up with the way they streamline everything. It's probably the layer of complexity affecting even the battle system (if we're talking haste effects for instance) they'd definitely want to avoid. And as soon as they'd start giving players the choice to pick stats or skills a whole bunch of other problems would arise aswell, like people demanding everyone picking the meta or they won't be allowed to come with... :/ Realisticly speaking I can see them go with a level squish or even just stopping at level 100 and going for only item level increases from there, with the added benefit for them of not needing to introduce more skills and balance everything again for already existing jobs. (They could still rework stuff, of course. To keep things fresh.)
@@Mrhappy1227 That's why I mentioned EXP. If it takes the same time to level from 1 to 90 as it does from 1 to 130, it's not any more daunting then before.
I recently started a new character in 14 so I could experience the MSQ as a new character (My main is a meteor survivor). I was level 90 before I finished Shadowbringers, and all I did was MSQ content. Getting up there in level with your first class isn't a problem. It's the 200+hours of story. FTR, the ARR story is (or at least was) slightly different if you are a meteor survivor. I need to hit up NG+and see if it's is still how I remember it.
Level squish is probably the solution. As for the story, I don't like the 'skip to next expansion' button like in WoW. In WoW, I couldn't have told you the story of any expansion prior to BFA besides the initial premise. There needs to be a way for players to experience a condensed but sensible version of the story. Maybe start folks in 6.1, have them level to 50 to get to 7.0 content, and then each time a character pops up in the story, show a recap of how you know them. This might work really well due to how the Scions are segmented in the patch content, so you wouldn't meet everyone all at once and be overwhelmed with story and info. For the extra curious then, you'd have the Unending Codex and New Game+.
Leveling new jobs is pretty painful atm. So a level squish would really help. Right now the combat is pretty bad from 1-50 or 1-60 depending on your job. But right when your job actually starts to become engaging the exp gains slow down tremendously from 60-90. Plus your only really options for leveling are either dungeons or deep dungeons + your daily roulettes. It gets old fast and sometimes you’ll be stuck doing the same dungeon that you may dislike 3-4 times. Sure you have Bozja in later levels as an option but it doesn’t actually teach you how to play your job properly and requires a good bit of time investment to unlock if you’re new. Something needs to be done. With the current leveling speeds it’s gonna be ridiculous telling a new player that to play a second or third job they’ll need to go through this process for 100 levels.
As someone who had to suffer through the hell of leveling RDM but getting lower level dungeons, I get it. Jobs that start at a higher level just do not function properly below that starting level. Why does RDM get Verthunder II and Veraero II at two different levels? Sub-Lv50 content is just… not great.
I have to completely disagree. The story is the game. If you want to skip it buy a boost. To just out level the story level and not know who someone is because a player couldn't be bothered to finish an expansion or why xyz is happening just doesn't work. Edited to correct spelling
I wonder if would be a good idea to make Advanced Jobs... ? Similar to what they did in ARR, you put two classes together to make one brand new job. Such as, you hit 100 in Sam and 100 in Nin, and you can become a Level 1 Kensei (Sword Saint)? 7.0 would max you at 100, and then starting with 8.0 you can hit Advanced Jobs or rename it to 'Careers'? The Career classes are equivalent to level 101 (fresh coat of paint) but are listed as level1, 2,3, etc. You just have to hit the prerequisites to unlock them. Maybe that's how we can get Geomancer, Green Mage, etc.
While I do understand where you're coming from, I don't think there needs to be a "solution" for players getting to the most recent content faster. Players feeling that they need to "catch up" is much more a personal problem than an issue with the game itself. On the contrary, I think the dev team's "no child left behind" approach has done more harm over the past few years as is. To be more specific, I think they should focus more on teaching players how to properly PLAY the game vs. pushing them THROUGH the game as fast as possible. No - this is not me being "elitist". Yes - I am aware that average player skill level is largely an NA data center problem (and a bit of EU from what I've heard).
For the dungeon issue that would come with the level squish, I would say either adjust the bonuses from roulettes or add new tiers. That way you have an incentive to go back and clear dungeons you may have skipped. Either clearing so many dungeons unlock a rewards threshold until you hit the max reward amount. Or just new roulettes that require certain dungeons again like how Expert works or how some of the roulettes use to work.
Story skip should not even be considered until we are at least multiple expansions into whatever the current saga is, and even then should only skip to the start of that saga (i.e. 6.1). The story is the main feature of FF14, letting people skip it is like telling them that it doesn't matter, which is doing an enormous disservice to the game and will ultimately harm new player impressions. Sure you can argue that new players don't HAVE to skip, but we all know they will if given the option.
GW2 has a system where you get to 80 from the base game itself, then anything past that is skills obtained within expansions, learned with XP and grinding in expansion areas/gathering items in said areas. while i Really Dont think they should just copy that system as is, i think they could at least analyze how that game does it.
The mastery system is a really good idea. However, I always felt like Anet was always hit or miss with what the masteries give the player, some are really great like jade bot revive and bloodstone (which is also disabled in high end content to avoid breaking the encounter) , but others only work in specific maps or aren't really all that interesting.
Borrowed power systems work well for side content (Bozja, Eureka, etc), but I feel like it's a mistake to use it in MSQ or raids. It feels awful to be given skills for an expansion only to be told "you lost it because you're in a different zone now" the moment you get to the new expansion
the only way I can think of a story skip working is if it gave you like a 5-10 minute animated story monologue telling you the major plot points you skipped before starting the next expansion. somewhat like the Genesis dlc for the later ME games that gave you a overview of the previous game and let you select some of the story 'choices' to carry over.
Why not? Just let them Start at the End of 6.0 with the complete Fresh Story Arc at lvl 80. You could Breakdown the Complete Hydaelyn/Zodiarc Arc in a 20 minute Cutscene before you Start the Game.
@@DantoriusD if i remember correctly this is actually what yoshi p brought up if i remember correctly back in the start of 6.1 or around that point yoshi p brought up that eventually once they get enough story set up for the next arc they will give the option to new players to either start in arr or start in 6.1 and go from there so personally a level squish may happen if they actually do go that route since imagine a new player choosing 6.1 only got 2-3 xpacs to lvl 100+ lvls per job?
@@DantoriusD Might work depending on where the story goes - even then, you will have no connection to the characters and any reference they make to past experiences will be completely lost on you.
Instead of level Cap they can go with a Mastery or Gear level system like GW2. I personally would prefer Mastery, because gear level would just be another nuanced way to say Item Level, while with mastery they can do something unique, like allow us to get special upgrades to already existing skills and abilities, not a vertical increase in power mind you, but more of a horizontal one, for example in TERA online you could use something similar to slightly alter a skills effects, like add a bleed to an AoE, or lower the cooldown of a certain skill when you use another skill. What they really need to do is add an option to opt out of low level dungeons via roulette, I am completely serious. I am okay with sprouts, but I don't effing want to run Sastasha every day when I just want my damn tomestones and an 8 minute dungeon shouldn't take me 25 because a sprout doesn't know wtf to do or because of the level sync no one in the party has AoE, so we are forced to slog through enemies one by one. Let the sprouts play together, to them the 25 minutes won't seem much because it's a fresh experience, but to me a 10+ year Vet, it's an effing slog and I only have 2 hours of free time every evening as is and 25 minutes is too much of a loss. Mentors can keep doing the low level dungeons if they want to mentor, but I am not a mentor and I don't want to be responsible for newbies. Now bring on the hate train.
They could have a seperate level progression per major story arc. I.E: 1-90 for AAR through endwalker and then 1-whatever level for 7.0 forward with an option to toggle between them depending on what content you're doing.
I like the idea of master levels. Would go nicely with something I'd like to see, Master Jobs. Do another job change progression into a Mastery job. At this point in the story we are done all the individual job quests, and we should get a chance to move onto a higher role.
I like the idea of jobs that upgrade the jobs but the only thing I would like to see from it is options. Like having two options where one is just a further enhanced version of say paladin and the other is they change the fundamental flow of the job but while still using their base job abilities. Like change the rotation with different upgrades and new skills. As example right now paladin goes burst with the spells making them more like a holy knight than a paladin, so what if the alternate option flips that so it is spells support the melee instead by giving a buff every time they are casted. Just examples and ideas that give jobs more differentiation amongst themselves so no two paladin is the same. I know that would mean more work for them but it is the type of thing I would like to see if they do something past the level cap.
@@ronmexico7256 Yeah, everything about it leans against them getting it done but it would be nice. I know a lot of people that want jobs to have more differentiation but to do so would take a lot of work, especially if for there to be 2 advanced jobs for every job that would be a lot of management. It would be cool but as of this point I have no idea what they plan to do for a new system to replace leveling that just isn't another leveling system.
I personally only ever found that ignoring the story altogether only makes me drop MMO's and other games because there's only so much pretty lights and flashes can do while mindlessly grinding. Also boosting to the qualifying level also comes with every skill that class(es) posses and the daunting amount of system bombardment is also a quit moment. So I've always been against content skipping. Making things more streamline is one thing but throwing a new player into the wolves, specially if they arent MMO veterans already, its almost guaranting them dropping, I think.
Option number 3: 8.0 (or 7.0 idk) is back to level 1 akin to doing a prestige in modern games, or ascended job just like in Ragnarok Online. If you're to visit, or undersize a past content, you will be be leveled back to an appropriate level, or the max lv prior to getting a prestige accordingly. Undersizing the last max level content would have your stat augmented solely by the prestige gear's max ilevel and stats.
Most dungeons are unlocked via MSQ or sidequests that open up via MSQ progress. All of the one's that unlock at certain levels can just have iLVL requirements -- which they really already should do. Lot's of new players end up overleveling the MSQ, unlocking dungeons like Qarn and Aurum Vale early, and then getting demolished by trash packs due to low iLVL unless they slow pull.
After level 100,do the level squish to 50 and make the raid/dungeon level requirements to half,and round up/down which ever there is no conflicting dungeon/raid requirements. Ex satasha lvl requirements now is 15 so cut down half to 7,5 and round down to 7 so now satasha lvl requirements is 7.for raid such as ucob just cut it half from 70 to 35
I like the idea of "Ascended" jobs, when you reach 100 and we go wherever the story takes us, we 'go beyond' our normal power and 'ascend' to a higher power. So say a Paladin would become a 'High Paladin', Dragoon becoming a 'High Dragoon' etc. etc. It would set us back at Level 1, but with the power of a former Level 100 and our rotation changes in the ascended form. In reality it'd all just be a fresh coat of paint and particle effects, but the base code would just be giving us our stat increases as we would normally get. And we could call it like, Level 10a or something. The idea would obviously need tweaking to fit the game and future game design, but I like it a lot as a starting point. Granted it doesn't solve the issue of people complaining about having to gain 100+ levels, but this is the first I've ever heard that complaint (not that it doesn't exist I'm sure).
I don't understand the problem with the current level system. What are the downsides of just increasing levels? Large damage/hp numbers have been handled by stat squishes so far. Seems fine to continue. I do think skill bloat is a problem, but that is a separate issue. (Personally, I think all skills should be handed out at lower levels, and just make high levels purely for equipment and story progression. A cool idea could be to have upgraded skill animations as a leveling reward as opposed to getting entirely new skills.) A level squish would make job quests more confusing imo. Right now, it is easy to remember that ARR job quests are every 5 levels. If levels get squished, it gets confusing. Especially for older players who are used to and have memorized the levels needed for all the unlocks. Even if you squished the levels, it doesn't change the fact that you have to do the MSQ. So it's not getting rid of the barrier to entry.
Personally I just assumed we would get to level 99 eventually. 🤔 Because it’s a Final Fantasy tradition. 😆 But it’s certainly not necessary. Of course, that will depend on what kind of content Yoshi’s team still want to implement. Stronger enemies don’t necessarily require stronger skills. Hmmm.... 🤔 If they increase the level cap won’t they need to add new skills? And if so, won’t they need to tweak the old ones? Again? Am I the only one who feels we have too many skills already on our hotbars? 😅
In my head cannon I assumed they'd create a "Advanced Job" or "Ascended Job" system similar to job stones. Such as Paladin -> Holy Knight / Judge or something, and then have a 99 Job / 10 (incremental increase with expansion) Advanced Job. In terms of tying it in with the game's lore, they could even make it so the trials of the 12 are a part of the ascension path. In the past I was thinking they'd end the story arc at level 99 and then have the Ascended Job start at level 1 (but with similar combat strength as a 99) and then make it so you can choose which arc you want to start in as a level 1 class or a level 1 Ascended Job.
most suggestion here dont solve the problem. Something extreme needs to be done to solve their concerns about leveling. Get rid of levels through experience. Tie leveling to job quests then later tie them to role quests
I would like them to keep the lvl numbers as is. Instead calling it lvl 101, call it lvl 1. For new players, have them choose to start at ARR or start at the new expansion. The new players can choose and learn there jobs by a new Hall of the novice story line to learn fundamentals and core mechanics of the game. It’s not a perfect idea, but something that can be tweaked.
I believe that, by the end of 6.5, we will have the means to travel to other shards and will have resolved the plot with the Thirteenth. This will give us the option to visit other shards. To resolve the problem with levels, I would add a system of leveling tied specifically to each shard, basically saying that our "attunement" with the shard is growing, allowing us to reach full strength again, and level syncing our stats down while still retaining our overall level. Call it crystal level or something similar, then give us new abilities unique to each shard. Endgame savage level gear could have a eureka-like effect, giving special bonuses while in that shard, still giving an overall sense of progression. Also solves the problem of needing stat squishes in the future, since we're just growing to our current insane level of strength again. I don't think it's a perfect system, but I do think it's an interesting solution that works with the probable story progression (exploring and helping the other shards, while some greater threat to the shards as a whole grows in the background) that also gives an in for new players to skip the current story, since they could be a strong adventurer testing the shard-teleportation system. If the FFXIV team goes the shards route, we have a ton of potential, not just for leveling, but for stories. Imagine leveling in a new shard while also mentoring a younger version of ourselves, similar to the relationship with Iroha in FFXI.
Wouldn't that just end up being a borrowed power system? What happens to your new kit when a new expansion comes out and you move to a different shard?
@@Vokoca Sort of. I'd like to think we have enough tools at this point to have a core kit, with each shard having some variation on our core kit. Using Paladin as an example, perhaps a new feature in the next shard would be that attonement becomes an ogcd, making it a much faster playstyle than before, while in the next, shield bash can combo out of holy shelltron for some good damage. New abilities could also be implemented that change up playstyle as well. Would give variation to each class based on the shard we're in, keeping the theme of shards being variations of the source. Maybe if a variation feel particularly good or fun to play, it could be included in the core class in some way? Like I said, I think the idea could use some refining before it could be implemented. Button bloat could get rough for some classes. Losing cool abilities would hurt, especially if the next shards wasn't as fun. Among other things. I'd love to hear any thoughts on how to improve the idea though.
@@Dharengo Haven't a clue, honestly. I could be entirely off base with my assumption. Could be the focus of an expansion, could run in parallel somehow? Not sure how you could use my idea and still keep those areas relevant, when they obviously need to be.
I’m just getting into heavensward, so I’m not as filled in as everyone else on what exists. But what if the solution is to create the “master jobs” on the soul crystals. A reference to ff3 in my example: after finishing the levels in the job for the soul crystal for, let’s say white mage, a quest line opens up where you can limit break it. The white mage job evolves to the “Devout” class. Or, the black mage becomes the “Magus” class. You can still equip the job stone and have access to the whm/blm classes, but a menu on the item when right clicked will allow you to limit break it back and forth. The evolved class reduces to something like level 50 or 70, but retains the stats of cap level classes
It depends on the story. I think if we keep going to shards it be shard only areas like eureka and the elemental levels. Mastery ranks are good too. But it really depends on how the story goes. I never played wow because entire chunks of story are lost when you get to a level point you zoom ahead.
WoW actually mostly fixed that in Shadowlands believe it or not. Now, as a new player you do the Battle For Azeroth story until your level 60 and then you can start Dragonflight. For any additional characters you can choose to do any expansion (or a mixture of zones you happen to like/find the most efficient or whatever) until hitting 60 and starting Dragonflight. Its actually a super nice leveling experience now, although it is a little easy.
My concern is how I'm going to fit more keybinds in my three already full hotbars.. already difficult to press 9 keys with 2 modifiers. I can't imagine having to use a third.
I personally have never had a problem with someone genuinely skipping the story if they have no interest in it. My concern though falls into two camps. One is that people unfamiliar with a game like FF14 and who have been 'trained' by other MMOs to just rush to endgame may skip, not realising how much of the game they are wasting for themselves, particularly since it can lead to them spoiling themselves if they gain interest later. I have met quite a few players, particularly from WoW, who rave about the story but said if it wasn't required they would have skipped past it all and never realised how good it was. My second issue, which is a more personal one, is that as a 'lore and story guy', I inevitably have people who have skipped and become interested in the story come to me and ask me to explain/summarise everything they have skipped. Putting aside how much time it takes, it gets REALLY tedious having to go over everything multiple times, particularly if they get impatient and want a short version. Saying 'you could always go back and play it again on New Game+' generally doesn't solve the issue either since most don't want to put that much time into it. Yeah I know, a pretty lame personal gripe but after having gone through this multiple times at this point it is getting tiresome. Doesn't help there aren't that many good summaries I can direct them to online.
I have a friend who did this to me. Where he kept asking questions and I was like go do new game plus of look at the story book in your Inn room. It’s super annoying when people do this.
Free story skips would be a mistake. The story is the premier feature of FF14, you would be doing a massive disservice to the game by essentially telling players that it doesn't matter. So many times I've seen people who say they loved the story but would have skipped it if they had been given that option because that's just what other MMOs have taught them to do. A story skip makes the game more "accessible" but in the long run will damage it because players won't get invested. More people will start, but fewer will stay.
"They gotta do something" I don't agree. It's fine how it is. So this level squish. If the pacing stays the same it just means you level half as fast. And if you level faster and do that skip content idea of yours, well what if you don't? You're leveling through half and expansion without getting any stronger? Not to mention having to rebalance everything if they change the pace of leveling. Obviously WoW changed it to play through one of several expansions in the early levels, but that really doesn't work with FFXIV. And doing 10 more levels and just calling it something different... why?
Honestly, I don't want any story skip at all in any capacity. What is the point of playing a story heavy game if you're just going to ignore it. They feel intimidated by how much story there is, then the game isn't for them. Gatekeeping is a good thing I've learned over the years.
One idea I've always had was keep the level cap at for example 50, but then have expansion levels. Like a level that goes up to 10 for that expansion. Essentially, you're gaining experience fighting in that region(s) of the world and it caps at 10. You have these 10 levels for every expansion, but you can hop around between expansions doing content there that puts levels towards that. With that system, you just hit 50 on an alt job and can just skip to leveling it in the latest expansion instead of taking it through all the others. Granted, you still have to deal with all the story a player currently has to level though.
I loved going through the entire story! I was completely new to playing an MMORPG and gaming in general. Don’t forget new players and I mean totally new raw players. We need the learning curve. There must be a way to do that no matter what established players get to skip. From experience trying WoW, the game has no impact if you don’t care about the characters and you don’t get that without living through the entire story.
I like the idea. GW2 has something called fractals, where your progression is tied to how much of a certain kind of damage you can tolerate (agony). You can't access the higher-level mini-dungeons until you have a considerably high level of agony resist. A simple and somewhat elegant solution.
I remember when I played ESO, they had a system (that they relatively recently reworked since it was kinda one sided depending on what you wanted to play) where you fill in parts of a constellation when you hit the max numerical level that improve you in various ways, but not in the way of gaining traditional levels. Would be something to consider anyways. One thing though that I have noticed is that, even when levels are capped in various dungeon and boss trials, some of them go down WAY too quickly, and can just be burned through. It would be nice to have something in place for them where (save for health and/or mechanic adjustments similar to the level 50 MSQ dungeons/Ultima Weapon fight) it wouldn't be just something you can just burn through and be done with it.
Yeah, so the deal with the trials that just seem to keel over nowadays is that they don't have item level sync. Which isn't a problem for trials below max level of that expansion, but if you get say, Singularity Reactor in Heavensward, because it has no ilvl sync, your effective ilvl when level synced is 270, which is a whole 128 item levels beyond the minimum item level around which the trial is balanced. Thankfully, it seems they started implementing ilvl sync for MSQ trials with Endwalker, so the likes of 89 and 90 trial shouldn't lose their impact over time. And maybe (at least, I hope so) they will introduce ilvl sync backwards in the future, so that the likes of Singularity Reactor, Royal Menagerie, or Dying Gasp don't just end in 5 minutes with no struggle.
What about just starting over for the story arc? You have Warrior of Light lvl 1 - 99, and at 7.0 have New Arc Name lvl 1 - 99. Just have a level tier for each 10 year arc.
A possible work around to constantly raising the level cap, keep the level capped at 100 for when 8.0 eventually drops, then shift the level cap of each expansion down by 10. ARR would need a touch of a rework from lv1-50 to lv1-40 (and eventually 1-30 for 9.0, 1-20 for 10.0 and possible 1-10 for 11.0... if the expansions ever get that far) with a bit of restructure to the MSQ, Job/Class & Sidequest levels while including a stat-squish and shift the level cap for each expansion down by 10.
If they are starting a whole new story arc, they could just have everyone start at level one. Kinda like when you switch jobs. But only for the new arc. That way new players could start at the new story if they wanted to.
Yes thats what I was thinking they could make it so that there is Two Main Story Quests each with their own unique stories that take place in completely different worlds or completely different continents.
None of the mentioned solutions solve the underlying issue. Nor do I think it’s as big of an issue to begin with. A level squish is a thing I could see happening eventually, although it is a massive undertaking, and only solves the aesthetic issue. They already have a way to skip to the next expansion though, the story skip potions. Although I am unsure about them costing real money (paying money to not play the game is kind of a no no to me), there has to be something of a barrier to it. Maybe an in-game one. Maybe it costs 5 tokens that cost 2k poetics each? Don’t get hung up on the number, it can be anything really, higher, lower, a different currency entirely, my point is you have to do something for it in-game. It’s an alternative to doing the story, but it doesn’t make the msq obsolete. But most of all, I encourage all new players to just do the story. There is no rush to get to ‘endgame’. The entire game is the game. The game doesn’t just ‘begin’ at endgame. In fact, I generally have the most fun when I’m doing new story content. Savage raiding I’ve tried. It’s whatever.
The biggest issue I see with a level squish is how they would handle the dungeons, if they go from say max level being 100 to say 50 then how do they handle the dungeons? They cant realistically just change the level required to go into them because they would also have to drastically change everything in the dungeon number wise potencially including mechanics and enemy density depending on the tools the players would have available to them at the new level after the squish.
They kinda did that already with Endwalker. Just to remind you, Level 80 tank in Shadowbringers in ilvl 520-530 gear had around 180-190k hit points at patch 5.55. In patch 6.3 lvl 90 tank in ilvl 620 gear has aroun 90-95k hit points. That is significant stat squish and all dungeons/trials/raids were affected by it because balance had to be updated.
@@SapphireDragon357 but with 2 Dungeons on the same Level AND Huge Parts of Story in between then you would feel to make absolutely 0 Progress. Were talking about roughly 10+ Hours for only 1 Level.
@@DefenderX They do require level though. You have to be X level and Y ilvl to enter a dungeon. Theres also the problem of pacing that Dante mentioned that I didnt think about. They would have to in addition to the numbers in the dungeons also have to completely repace the story to compensate for the slower level progression.
I think the main issue is not really 'stat growth' at this point but more a mean to get the new abilities or updated abilities in the player's hands. I feel that once we hit Lv.100, we technically wouldn't need to "Level up" further but we'd need a way to earn the new expansion's actions. Gear will always be the gateway to straight bigger numbers so really, if 8.0 comes around, instead of a Lv.110 cap, we could still be Lv.100 but have a system in place to earn those new abilities. That of course doesn't take in account that some jobs go through complete overhauls between expansions so that there's no bloating of the hotbars but much like some abilities end up evolving with levels instead of simply being added, I figure whatever comes in the latest expac could be dealt differently. Heck, idea that I just thought of : using a combination of role quests and Wondrous Tails for that progression. Have the role quest work as it does now but the last quest becomes a daily quest / repeatable quest, somewhat like beast tribes, that earns you "role points" of the role you're doing it for, so "Tank Points", "Healer Points", "Melee DPS Points", etc. When you accumulate enough of these points, you can invest them and unlock a new tier of abilities for that role OR pick which job of that role to unlock a new ability for. Those could be earned by doing things related to your job, like "run a Lv.80 dungeon as a tank" or "complete trial X as a healer". And either you unlock a new role tier (so all your role-related jobs get a new ability, updated ability or trait) or you use those role points to 'buy' the next ability in the tier list of the job you want. So if you earned 100 Tank Points, then you could unlock the next Dark Knight ability that's in their progression.
Well they can do a "New Game+"-ish kind of treatment to it where you're brought back down to Level 1 but you retain the abilities you have. Basically similar to the Master Level system in 11, sans the extra clutter of being a lv99, ML 10, etc.
The master levels sounds like a good system and I would prefer that over a level squish. The game can cap at level 100 then switch to master levels after that.
simple soluation you can add Star Icon which half one is required to equip a gear past level 100 and would count if it was level 105 , but won't gain any status bonus from a actually level , but use the gear to boost up your stats. So like if you finish the expansion you have 1 full star so it will be level 100 +1 star which requires a full star to equip all the gear in that current expansion and the next expansion you would need to be level 100 +2 stars.
In the lore didn't they describe a second power, Dynamis, it's what allows us to break our limits. Why not progress into Dynamis levels. Set us back to 1 and we get a whole new level system and range going forward.
That would be cool, but I imagine that with any sort of system that introduces an additional level scale, things could become cluttered really fast. You can see very easily what leve you or anyone else is right now and there is no ambiguity or confusion surrounding it. I would have to assume that this would become much worse as soon as you introduced a new number. At that point, do you still even show the old level? If not, how do you differenciate from the new level to make it as easy to parse as possible? If you don't hide it, where do you show the new number, and does it take priority over the old one? We already have stuff like the element levels for eureka, and those are pretty hard to get to unless you are currently in the content they were made for. Would new expansions have to only work with the new level system too?
@@Vokoca arguably, it could be a new expansion type thing only registerable in those areas. Although fairly pointed out that any new system will be both a step forward and back. It will be difficult to make any system work, while making everyone happy with it.
It would be cool to start giving alternate abilities but at the same time that would make raiding optimization really annoying for anyone not into that.
i still think there's a lot of fetch quests and go to x and talk to y then come back and talk to x type quests that they could cut down on. Even in the current expac they keep introducing quests that make me run through the zone I already went through just to talk to someone that I could talk to without having to run through the zone again. I think a level squish along with cutting down on a lot of the fluff in the story would go along ways to lower that barrier to entry. The biggest complaints I've heard about the new player experience is the story is to long and the early job kit is super boring to play because of the long gcd and lack of abilities.
Yeah, this is pretty much my thought. If they trimmed down the fluff with some of the early quests, and gave most jobs more buttons early (like they did with monk) or gave them more of their 70 kit pre 70, it would make the early parts of the game feel like less of a chore, and less of a quit point for new players.
One thing that comes to mind would be adding tiers to jobs or other aspects. More on the idea of giving a growth aspect with a small benefit. So after maxing out a job you could upgrade that to an epic tier, then mythic tier. Reset the levels, keep the skills but give a small stat increase. Then new player could just be one higher tier that's could be balanced closer to end game content or process faster or something similar as an option, and depending how you combine it, could even bring the system of the levesync to bring low level player up, rather than the bringing high level players lower.
Here's my solution: To keep the tradition of level progression through story I think they could keep level at 99(100) and instead of going past they could focus on powering up the MC's soul crystals. Then by powering the crystals you could still gain power and new abilities but maintaining the level cap. On a personal note that would give them a chance to bring back more characterization to individual jobs which I've always been a fan off and miss it in the newer content.
Okay so I typed up an idea (expansion specific powers), and was informed that it was similar to "borrowed power" from World of Warcraft, which was negatively received. As someone who hasn't played that game, what went wrong with expansion specific powers and why do players dislike them?
Short version:L All the stuff you earn, and grind, being taken away, only to make you grind for a suspiciously similar 'skill' in the next xpac makes you feel unimportant, and your accomplishments feel hollow
@@kremlinkoa Hmm to me that sounds like an execution problem instead of something inherent to the system. What I'm thinking of is something like 1. Not any more difficult to attain than the normal leveling process (MSQ for first job, roulettes for subsequent jobs), so no "grind". 2. Skills remain relevant through duty finder. While 8.0 skills are not used for 9.0 content, they're still used when doing content that came out during the life cycle of 8.0 though the duty finder. 3. Skills should be unique between expansions. At least 2 expansions should be waited before bringing back the same or similar skill. Thoughts?
@@hounddog5 That might reduce the 'we re level for the same stuff' problem, but would exacerbate the 'button bloat' problem. Because your hotbars would need the abilities for each expansion for roulettes ...unless you get the same number of 'new' abilities per job per expansion and they map to 'xpac ability #1' and 'xpac ability #2' It would still feel a bit like 'we forgot how to use this skill, so it was never really our learning' There might also be some issues using unsynced mode with content where xpac abilities were worked into the fight mechanics.
I think my option 3 would be to do separate expansion levels when 8.0 releases. Since its confirmed that 7.0 is both a new saga and capping to lvl 100. 8.0 would be a continuation of 7.0 but not directly related to ARR-EW granted you could still go through those expansions to get a past view of the lore. It makes sense to change the cap to lvl 100 for EW (granted its 90) and make 7.0 the "reset" so that new players can start the new saga without needing to go through all of ARR-EW to hit 90 and start 7.0 from there. the levels make it seem weird but hopefully it makes sense
I've aways liked the idea of interacting with classes more past level 30. After 7.0 they might also want to stop introducing entirely new jobs since we will have a ton, so some sort of specialisation that you add on top of your job which changes or adds skills could be a solution to both issues. For example, white mages could have some 'pure' specialisation which doubles down on the light aspected attacks and big direct healing, as well as a conjurer one that goes back to nature attacks and has a different and more interactive flower growing gague of some sort to build of the lillies. Pulling from lore that's already in the game you could even add stuff like a golemancer in future expansions. A cleric stance option that makes white mage into a caster dps would probably be a lot more work to essentially entirely remake, but if the developers weren't making new jobs then it's not unimaginable that they could eventually put the resources towards it eventually. Astrologians could get back their shield healing mode as well. If they wanted to pull from 2.0 there could also be some potential to have specialisations that mix two jobs' skills together requiring at least some levels in both. Containing cross-class skills into pre-made specialisations would side step having players make their own builds, so the balancing team can keep every job contained in the same performance range. Unlike arcanist's split, this kind of system would probably need each specialisation to level independently, since levelling isn't just about marking your main story progress, it also has to feel like making distinct permanent progress and it would feel very hollow to have every new specialisation already levelled when they release. Though if every current job had two or more specialisations I'd hope the levelling process wouldn't take nearly as long as max out.
I think taking the idea of an advanced job skin, more flashy spell effects etc, and having that be tied to a sort of master level, advanced level type system would resolve the issue of using leveling as a yard stick. But you then have to transition to horizontal itemization maybe. It's hard to say really. I wouldn't mind being able to "retrain" my Bard into an assassin from FFTA for example. Get to max level, then progress as a second, optional and cosmetic only job in newer expansions, or get a few new flashy paints of coat on old bard spells [or both!]
I don’t think it is a good idea to skip the story. If it’s your first time playing you need to be eased into pulling wall to wall (regardless of role) and boss mechanics. By introducing a story skip you will have a bunch of sprouts who have even less an idea of what the various markers mean how to handle mechanics. If it is not your first time you probably made an alt because you want to go through the story again. Also people can purchase story skips if they don’t want to go through the story. I played ARR to Endwalker in under 120 days. This is not a lot of time for a game which is supposed to be played long term.
I've done enough max level content over the years, both pre and post buyable skip, to know that no amount of time truly solves the issue of people not knowing markers or mechanics.
The only way to solve the issue of people not knowing mechanics or markers is to have a way to learn them. I still struggle with them. I have had my sister teaching me and that has been SO helpful. There is nothing in the game that comes close. However it does take time to learn these things. Skipping content certainly doesn’t help. I don’t know the answer to the learning issue but it would be great if there were better lessons from The Smith. There was not enough guidance there at all. I usually review. video guides of the raids, dungeons, and trials. That has been the best for me so far. However Duty Roulette will often through me into a fight that I haven’t done in a long time and remembering all the details on mechanics in that situation is not easy.
Personally I wouldn't mind either "prestige" levels or level squish, but the former feels more rewarding for existing players, cause losing levels even though it doesnt practically mean anything is not satisfying
Being able to skip to the next expansion and X level could work, but it would be cool if they prepared cut scenes to go over the story of that expansion and maybe give you the option at major points to do the corresponding dungeon/trial e.g. ("The WoL in pursuit of their captured comrades followed them all the way to enemies lair." Would you like to complete dungeon X or continue recap?)
i mean its easier to smush level 100 back down to 60, put arr - sb 50, and shb to 7.0 60, then the new level cap is at 70 after some adjustments since some of these skills need to get adjusted and changed around for lower cap
This COULD work pretty alright honestly, make each individual level feel a lot more impactful. Of course one challenge presented is all the different armors between the 50-60 and going forwards ranges. Cause, well… You’d wind up with some overlap and no reason to bother with certain sets of armor really
I suppose at some point they have to invest more on horizontal progression. Level cap may stay at 90, but in the story coming afterwards they would provide some new jobs and new systems separated from 2.0-6.x. Player may still choose to play the new story with their old jobs, but they would have a separated sets of EXP bar and level synced accordingly.
i was honestly thinking the same thing, i would love to just cap at 99 forever next expac, or maybe even 90-95 for 7.0 and 100 hard cap for the rest of the game, Ilvl covers every prog point and there is no real need to lvl after you did it ONE HUNDRED TIMES
Will be interesting to see what they do because changes to leveling also means changes to gear. Even thinking about doing an "isolated" 10 levels for each expansion wherein you grow experienced in those regions or what have you, if they want us to constantly seek gear improvement then there needs to be an incentive behind that too. While GW2 introduces new stats and elite specializations to alter gameplay, they're not "necessary' to playing the new content either while still possibly collecting pieces for the wardrobe and for side collections. Then again their story method allows for more skipping around too and not locking places behind story progression so I wonder if that would also have to change with FF...like you legitimately can't cart people to other map halves or force them into another map if they haven't reached it via story yet.
The big thing about levelsquish in my opinion would be that everything would fly by pretty fast with the already copious amounts of ways to easily level. Newer servers are given xp buffs to entice new players, menphinas earing while probably harder to get nowadays being a pre-order bonus is still something, food buff, mentor buffs. Unless they decrease the xp given and force people to trudge through leveling, I wouldn't think a squish to be a reasonable answer.
My idea of the best way to do the squish is 3-fold: 1. Squish the levels down but canonically. 2. Create a new starting experience that leads directly into the new expansion for new players (old story ad NG+ to be revisited when a player wishes it) 3. Revamp the onboarding for training new players. Make sure they get the most up to date mechanical experience.
One solution they can do (which isnt from any previous final fantasy games and is actually from a very old but still alive mmorpg called Ragnarok Online) is to implement a "Transcendence" System, where once you reach level 100 you will have the option to Transcend your limits at the cost of sacrificing all of your power/levels, reseting you back to level 1 while bestowing a new Transcendent Class to your current Class. In Ragnarok's case it was say Knight > Paladin, or Priest > High Priest, or Assassin > Assassin Cross for example. (I'm intentionally leaving out Ascendance Jobs of Ragnarok Online since im trying to introduce the concept, not bog him down with its more advanced later progression.)
Master Level makes sense. The game already didn't change too much going from ShB to EW, so every expac would just add more Master Levels to tweak the job a bit.
*semi spoiler alert read at own risk* An easy out to let people skip MSQ up to 7.0 is to have yourself experiencing a different shard of azem. So new players can wake up in 7.0 just as you do in ARR. They could also work this into the MSQ for current players story wise without "undoing" everything we did already fairly easily with not too much creativity needed (not going to list the possibilities here). Think "Chronicles of Azem" I actually would like some post job 'progression'. I dont see square doing any kind of real job power locked behind progression past max level though. However I think it would be cool if we had some sort of AESTHETIC post job progression system. Maybe being able to change/customize some skill animations would be a worthwhile post max level grind that square would prob be ok with for ff14.
Buying a skip is already an option for those not interested in the story so I don't see much point to that option. Much of the value of an expansion such as EW is built off experiencing that story and perhaps they can create an abridged version as a new player experience, but that doesn't sound very compelling either. I think it will be more that 7.0 creates a new entry point to the story in the way ARR did for 1.0. Everything up to EW will become optional nods to previous events except perhaps retroactively requiring certain encounters like they did with Crystal Tower.
Oh like in 7.0 could be a starting point type thing if I understand correctly? Like what ARR is if you didn't play 1.0 (but without destroying ARR-EW ofc)
old ex-FFXI lvl 75 player here, the Merit system seems interesting, but in terms of FFXIV applications, it sounds too similar to aspects of 2.0 and earlier that Yoshi-P and crew forcibly removed from XIV, namely the potential that min-maxing certain Merit point increases would lead to everyone just doing the same stat increases rather than risking trying more unique combinations. That was the case with the now defunct Attribute points you used to be able to allocate to different stats (RIP to all the SMNs/SCHs who always had to redo those points). I personally like the idea of putting more choices in the hands of the player on how to upgrade/customize their WoL, but in practice I don't think people would end up really embracing it in more than a couple of the same ways.
I think they'd be wasting a good opportunity to have a new starting point if they don't eventually add a "skip to 6.1" function. ITataru talking to you, presenting the Codex, every character and event being added to it as we go through it, I think it's the smartest way to handle that and I'd be surprised if they didn't
I think for the story barrier they should eventually have a super abridged version of the story through Endwalker that new players can get through faster, but still allowing new players to experience the full thing (if they want to).
I'm all for them making a super cut cinnematic, simular to what they dis with the KH franchise for players that would otherwise skip the content and try to jump into 7.0 immediately regardless. Something like X backcover or the days cinematics. If they can squish even the main story beats down into something like that, I think that would be amazing. Of course, I also think they should still have newgame+ and make it FAR less cumbersome(there are so many annoying restrictions around NG+ it's kinda insane) and I would make it so you can jump into the quests at any quest in the story quest chain, rather than /only/ being able to start at the chapter selects for NG+.
Why not just keep the level 100 and from there on just keep increasing the gearscore? The gearscore can be your level and your gear is adjusted in strength based on that
They could do something like the catch-up cutscene/animation in Mass effect games, 1-2 hours of explaining the whole expansion's story through pictures and stuff, at least to catch you up to speed
Even that would probably turn a lot of people away, because most people won't want to watch a movie before they can even start playing. But as an optional thing, it would be nice to have maybe like Yakuza 2 does, where you can split that summary into multiple videos, maybe based on certain characters, or different arcs of the ARR story.
@@Some__Guy yeah was going to mention, as an optional thing it could work, something you could do piece by piece even so you dont have to commit to 2 hours straight
Time for a new game. As far as I'm concerned you should only level so far, because at some point you have an ability problem and a power level problem. Do you keep adding more abilities and throw old ones away, scale the existing ones, or be able to earn extra xp for abilities individually to improve them? At what point how much more powerful of a boss is there to beat? How do you explain normal mobs being more powerful than a god you just beat as you continue levelling? You should always plan ahead of time of how long the story, levels, and abilities are going to go, and once they reach that point end them. There should be some sort of 8-10 year cycle for an MMORPG and about halfway through start working on a sequel or a different game. Plus that helps with aging hardware and code. FF has always been about changing up and mish mashing various genres, and I think it would be interesting to see a change of venue and abilities.
I think they could produce a well made cinematic experience resuming the history of the first 3 expansions and then allow players to skip and move on from shadowbringers
@@atelierbagur3831I assume because Shadowbringers is where the game begins to adopt more of the modern feel, and is where a lot of people feel like the game really hits it's stride. It'd be a easier sell for new players.
@@OldManInternet It also relies on people being invested with the established world. Nobody is gonna give 2 shits about Norvrandt or Ardbert if you skip everything that came before it, otherwise you get a rip-off FFX/Shin Megami Tensei/Tales of Symphonia story about going around fighting the next big monster of the week with no emotional weight or context behind it. Seriously my biggest problem with the FFXIV community overselling Shadowbringers.
Imo, the next logical decision for the story (now that one has concluded) is to allow a new entry point almost the way 2.0 did but take advantage of the system where you get different lines given to you by quest givers based on what you have completed. Then a new player could decide to start in 7.0 or they could choose to start in 2.0 all content still locked behind it's respective quests to make the story lock system continue to do it's thing. Players who are caught up would then be rewarded with different lines for being caught up. Pair this with some sort of soul stone leveling and you've solved both problems
Personally, I think it should be tied to our soul crystals, where they level and give us new abilities and stats. That way you're also forced to have it equipped to access higher levels and gameplay is directly tied to them. They're important, so they should have more emphasis placed on them
I can agree to this more so if there is a story element that points us to being [Redacted] if not finding other fragments of us being [Redacted] as we should be able to imbue our own power into the crystals or something like that
@@ShadowyDeathSin Redacted? ... mmmmkay.
@@Nimoot mostly using that as a censor in case anyone has not seen all the story so far
@@Nimoot mmkay????
How is the stones leveling any different then you leveling? What you describe seems functionally the exact same
I think it starts becoming enhancing the Soul Crystals. If the answer to story progression is going to new, far away places, say other reflections or other planets, they could probably easily find a way to hand wave it such that these other realms have their own independent leveling system like Eureka. And then completing the story and maxing the level (lets say we'll keep it at 10 levels) in that realm unlocks a trait for the character that enhances the strength of your Soul such that it empowers your Soul Crystals with stat boosts, perhaps new traits and then a capstone skill when the job is at max level no matter where you are. I'm sure they could still find a way to do this if we're sticking with Etheirys, too, though I spent all my creativity on the first part of this comment, hahaha! They would have to explain why places like other reflections, flashbacks, etc weren't impacted, but I think this could be a worthwhile idea to consider.
We could just go the Guild wars 2 route.
@@TehParismio what was it?
@@TehParismio I don't know what that means, I've never played it.
@@HidaMan @ザン Basically exactly like the FFXI solution Mr. Happy described. It's also what is described with this thread, only with a different label - a max level cap with a separate power leveling system. GW2 is most commonly known for it, but it wasn't the first to do it, and several other games have adopted it too. Personally, I like the lore concept behind implementing this solution described here. It achieves the same idea that has worked so well for FFXI, GW2, D3, etc, but fits the lore of FFXIV.
@@lauragilbert9326 Thank you for the explanation!
In 6.1 when Tataru gave you the Unending Codex she said it was in case you ever hit your head and forgot the last ten years. It would be hilarious if that was how new players were handled. Start at 7.0 or 8.0 option has you wake up in an inn with no memory but the Unending Codex to tell you about everything that already happend. Preferably with the option to go back and New Game+ everything if you decided to later.
I don't think it's too bad of an idea XD
A brilliant idea 💡 And one that fits the style of ffxiv. I mean, in Realm Reborn, I remember the story going on about how the name Warriors of Light stayed with the people but noone remembered their faces.
Nah generally people dont like to move backwards, majority wouldnt accept this
@@romangolob2279 I think the amnesia would only trigger for those choosing to start at 7.0 or whenever the skip is chosen to start, but for people who played through everything it would continue as normal. No head bonking needed
@@carlako3238 Yeah. They already have alternate dialogues for people who have completed different stuff and ARR had different dialogues for people who had played in 1.0. If I recall what I was told correctly Minfilia recognized you, but no one else did. And I think they would still want to have an option for people to do it either way.
The 'skip the story' option goes against everything the game is trying to do.
Yes it will never happens. Makes zero sense. No idea why he even mentioned it.
Edit: i meant that i dont know how Mrhappy could consider it as a possible solution (who knows i may be wrong), though it should be mentioned as a problem of course.
They've already expressed this as a concern for the future. They clearly think it's an important aspect to consider.
At one point they might want to do it, bcs the game story will get bigger and bigger, and at one point starting from very beginning (2.0) to get to end game just doesnt sound realistic anymore. And bcs endwalker ends a saga from 1.0, they may be able to give new players option to start from 7.0 while giving all past story information ingame
They're making a product with the express purpose of reaching as most audience as possible. At one point the story, no matter how good it is, becomes a liability when you mention to any new players that the story is 300 hours long -- Nevermind that the first 50 hours of ARR stretch is awfully paced, and the first 200 hours of the gameplay being bad because of the accumulated skill pruning of earlier expansions.
@@DawnAfternoon thats a problem from vertical MMOs progression. The solution is usualy Horizontaly (unless they revolutionize the genre with a very smart solution)
Besides the discussion about what to do after level 100, I think getting to 100 should be something more interesting than just getting the last level. I think we should level to 99 naturally and then exp stops, then each class has a unique story challenge to complete to get that last level. Some classes might have to take down a mighty foe, others might have to gather ancient knowledge to have a mental breakthrough. Could be a cool flavour and tie back to the good old job quests.
That’s actually a pretty cool idea
That's level cap quests and Maat from ffxi.
I had a thought for 7.0, since Yoshi P has gone on record to say the current void story is ending in 6.55 and a major event will start off the next 10 years of expansions. What if they split the game up into Sagas, or some other appropriate term? Like we just finished the Hydaelyn-Zodiark Saga and 7.0 will start the... idk, the Merycidia Saga or whatever. Each Saga could be a self-contained story with its own start point so when you make a new character, you can choose to either start in 2.0 The Hydaelyn-Zodiark Saga or start in 7.0 Merycidia Saga with the Unending Codex filled out. This option wouldn't really be a "story skip" since it won't unlock the previous Saga's content, BUT if you DO pick to start in 7.0, you could choose to start 2.0 later if you do want that extra story.
HOLY cow, you have to get this idea out there, because i would love a concept like this. I want to see this implemented that way even if your a new player and your too far away but you want to get to the newer stories you can just go right to it making a new character
I honestly hope 7.0 is another war story. Like I genuinely love storylines where the plot is driven forward by some kind of war, like Saving Private Ryan for example (yes I've read the book and seen the film respectively. Both are great in my opinion)
This is basically exactly what i was gonna say. They could also make a new starting quest line till like level 10-15 or w/e that will actually teach people how to play the game because thats been a major complaint since the beginning of time then at the end of the quest line you can choose to go with the story of the scions or w/e this new story is. You can also use it as a way to get to know a few of the major characters that may appear in both stories and branch from there.
This works so much. All they would have to do is; assuming for a moment 7.0 is the 'golden cities of the new world+merycidia or another shard, etc. They would just have to encapsulate 90 levels of abilities into say, 30 for the 7.0 areas, This gives new players the ability to learn, while old players will still retain their legacy levels when venturing to older areas. Give new players a level 90 boost potion, since that will only be useful if wanting to do old world stuff via NG+, without the need to 'grind'.
A major thing that I don't recall if Happy touched on it or not. DoL/DoH jobs. all of those are very heavily tied to the old world. So unless they just say screw it and keep raising the level cap for crafting and gathering. A new player without access to old materials being 'stuck' in the 7.0 saga, because they would have to go and unlock 2.0-6.0 areas. SE could alleviate this by starting fresh, making any and all recipes and their materials from 7.0 onwards come from 7.0+ areas and truly abandoning anything below. But again, they would have to design an entirely new leveling experience for crafting and gathering, alongside battle jobs.
Don't they already refer to it as the Hydaelyn-Zodiark saga?
I think if they plan to convert to a new progression method for future Expacs, 100 is a good spot to stop the normal levelling progression with.
I just want it to be an even 100
@@jackbordar2727 literally. 100. Clean.
Lv. 99 Just for the old FF nostalgia
@@user-ko3sd9qj2h Personally, keep it at 99. The 100th level can be the first level of mastery, prestige, etc that Yoshi-P wants to try.
I think adding levels without calling them levels would just add confusion.
If the number itself is too intimidating, then ARR alone being "level squished" to cover ~30 levels instead of 50 would help. But past that, I think solving the "catch up"/"level jump" question for new players should be a separate discussion.
Just a comment: I needed (and enjoyed) every single level in ARR. I was completely new to gaming and needed the slow learning curve. I think that the ability to purchase the level skips from the online store is good enough for those players that are experienced. There should be and hopefully always will be new players to gaming and there needs to be a way to learn how to play this kind of game. Fast forwarding through levels won’t do it for newbies like me and newbies will keep the game alive.
@@aislingeach7834 I would imagine that if they end ARR at level 30, your level would also increase more slowly, so I don't think there would be a big difference. You would still have pretty much the same skills at the same dungeons/points in the story, all that would change is the number displayed. I would also expect them to put the job upgrade at lv20 instead of lv30.
the levels as they are should remain, the last stat squish still created some issues here and there since some things did not function correctly at smaller numbers, they did eventually fix that too, but they could maybe have it level 100 max and stop there, no point adding levels indefinitely
@@aislingeach7834 If ARR takes 20-30 levels instead of 50. Getting from level 1 to 2 will take longer. You still have your slow learning curve
i would say squish arr to just 10 level like other expantions then they'll free up 4 expantions worth of levels
The problem with the "once you're level 35 you can immediately go to the HW story" or something like that is how the story is written and paced. Starts of expansions are never actually where a story starts. And while there are good spots to end the story at that after e.g. most .3 patch quests that doesn't mean the .4 patch quests necessarily are good points to start either. Those also expect you to know what happened before and just being thrown in at those points would mean the player would take a while to find their bearing in the story which could alienate them just as much or more as having to play through the whole story in the first place.
That level squish will NOT work.
That would mean not only squishing player levels but weapons levels, gear levels, enemy levels and thus also stats and ballancing.
And that for the main game AND 4/5 expansions would be an absolute nightmare to do as developer
I’ve never understood being intimidated by a level cap. The MSQ is more than enough to get a job to max level by the time it’s over, and you’ll likely have to switch to a second job before it is just to not waste XP. And after that, leveling your other jobs only takes about a week or two with casually grinding it through dailies, without any sort of XP buffs. Add some in and it’s even faster. If someone genuinely sees a level 90, or 100, or 110, or 150 level cap and says “well that’s too much for me, I’m out” I personally don’t think they’re the type of person that would enjoy this game.
The MSQ is long because it has a story to tell, yes. But the length also allows for plenty of time to actually learn the game. I don’t understand the need to rush to the endgame when you wouldn’t even be competent enough to play at that level anyways if you did. I personally had a friend that when we got him into the game, he level skipped Dragoon and had no clue how to play it. He attempted to play level 80-90 content without even knowing what positionals or combos were. And I can attest to seeing plenty of level skipped players, or players on new servers with “the road to 80” buffs that have zero idea what they’re doing because they rushed to that endgame content.
So imo, story and level skips or squishes should NOT be encouraged. People need time to be able to learn how to play the game. Endgame isn’t going anywhere. If you rush to it, all you’ll be doing is wasting your own time, and up to 7 other people’s time depending on what content you’re attempting to do.
Yeah FF XIV is a game about the journey if you want to play it just for the endgame this might not be the MMO for you
I agree totally. I needed the slow journey leveling through ARR and all the expansions. I had no clue how to play when I started and needed the time and effort through low levels to learn. My main character’s profession is at level 90 but I am still learning how to play. It is not easy when you are new to all this and it doesn’t come fast at least not for me. I left WoW because it didn’t have the story path and I couldn’t figure out what I was doing. This has been the right game for me.
Yeah reducing LVL 100 or lvl 110 to like lvl 60 just sounds lame and i had pretty much all of my tanks at LVL 90 before i even finished Stormblood due to reaping all the daily "adventurer needed" bonuses for XP and GIL
And about the skipping, if you are not a FREE TO PLAY players, you can just lvl other jobs via FRONTLINE game mode, since you can change jobs at the start of the match and still get XP for the job that you want to lvl up, i basically lvl´d up my ASTRO to lvl 70 from lvl 40 via the frontline system and then i had a ton of PVE skills that i had no idea of how to use :D
@Sara Øverby not every job starts at 1 only the arr jobs do (and blue mage but shh) HW is 30, SB is 50, Shadowbringers is 60, EW is 70
@@ambercarbuncle1440p If you have a friend at max level doing cool stuff and you just start out having months of story ahead until you can actually play the cool stuff with them is not very nice. Just had a sprout recently tell me exactly that.
GW2 has a good progression concept with mastery system when a new expansion comes out and new zones
Guild Wars 2 has never raised their level cap passed the base game. There are absolutely ways to make levels moot at a certain point and offer meaningful progression through other avenues. I have faith in Square's team that they will find a solution that works for their game if that is the route that they want to go. I'll be here to check it out.
gw2 has more horizontal progression than 14 so it can get take full advantage of the different build variety already existing in the game when making new gear and content. 14 doesn't really have that and would need a total overhaul which isn't on the table.
still doesn't mean they need to go the way of the WoW and stretch the levels past 100 i'm sure they'll make improvements and maybe even prune the levels. lord knows some jobs could use their full kit earlier on but it'd be impossible to tell how that could effect older synced stuff.
The GW2 way is really taxing on development I think, because each expansion each profession gets a new specialisation which is like a new profession of it own, so instead of just adding one or two jobs each expansions they kind of add 9 new jobs each expansion.
That's why I said that FF would find a solution that works for their game. Copy-pasting GW2's answer to progression would not work for FF, but stands as a successful example of halting the leveling curve being viable.
A level squish sounds simple enough... but it'd destroy making use of all the craftable and dungeon gear, along with making a lot of the crafting materials seemingly useless. I don't see how SE would manage to squish in all the different gear with a level squish.
The main issue I think is having (or not), new skills. Some jobs already have too much to be comfortable. If you just remove older skills and make new ones, keeping the same number of actions to place on the hotbar, you now have the issue of having 30 something skills divided over 100 levels.
some skills could just get a new version like some do already. Imagine your lv100 job has a completely different set of skills from say the lv70 version. Could make for super interesting roulettes
I may be in the minority, but i think it's fine to just go to lvl100, then 110 and keep going. If need be they can just do a stat squish to avoid number overflow like they did in EW launch, but keep the levels.
You've played way too many Korean MMOs lol
You're definitely in the minority there. I rather not go through another stat squish every 50 to 100 levels. There will also have to be the occasional major job balance, because at a certain level a job would be either too strong or weak. If he decides to stop at level 100, then I'm going to be content with it. Eventually they're going to say we cannot continue increasing the level cap just to increase it. I rather not go through another stat squish because the last boss of the current savage raid hp is in the billions because of how high our stats are becoming....again. As a player that plays mainly dps roles, I never felt as squishy as I did as a level 80 drg, who used to have over 120k hp before the 6.0 stat squish. This is just my thoughts though.
Its trash for new players since its already painful enough to go through all the expansions up to 100, there needs to be alternatives
Same here, I see no point in endlessly pushing down the levels back to be between 1 and 100. Not sure why companies keep trying to "solve" that.
@@dawgyv72 I never played any Korean MMO for more than 10 levels and I agree with him. I don't see why MMOs need to keep their levels between 1 and 100 all the time. Maplestory didn't and Maplestory is tons of fun.
The story skip conversation is interesting to me because if there was a free option to skip the story, I probably would have taken it because of how long and daunting it looked to catch up - but I also probably wouldn't have attached to the game and would have likely quit after a month or two.
The story is the only thing that separates this game from other MMOs for me, and FFXIV is the first MMO in 20 years that I played for longer than the first 30 days. The story made me so invested in the world and characters that I not only got to endgame but cared about it because of how the story had made me care about the characters and world, and I'm now on my second year of playing.
So while I think it's a valid discussion on how to improve the new player experience, I think that there's a fine line between making it easier for new players to get into the game and kneecapping one of the game's most unique and important selling points.
Yeah, there is no perfect solution to that. I can't agree with you more about dropping MMOs and not caring while in FF I was not only connected to the story, to the characters in the story, but to my character. I felt like I was always a part of it and I became immersed in my main. I started caring about what my character looks like, if I have good glam for going into the desert of to ice cold zones.
In WoW or other games I never cared about any of that. I was there for gameplay only, while FF makes you invested into everything. I am glad there was no instant-skip of story because if there was and I took it, I would probably quit soon after
If a story skip is done, it has to be done right. Maybe allow players an abridged version of the story rather than the real thing. Throw in a few cinematics instead of letting players try to recruit the company of heroes or something, that already cuts a few hours down.
Maybe allow players the option to play the original content, or to get an abridged cinematic of a lengthy quest. Do that a few times and players will advance much quicker without sacrificing too many story. More importantly, that puts the agency of how the story can be experienced with the player. So when it catches their attention and they are not in a hurry, they can take their time, and players that are more inclined to preserve time can grab the abridged version knowing they won't miss out too much.
As far as level capping is concerned. My problem with mastery levels has always been it's just level 2.0. It kicks the can down the road and makes things more complicated. A squish is more elegant. It also kicks the can down the road, but it doesn't throw an additional roadblock in front of it. Plus it's much easier to explain and wrap your head around. Try expaining that endwalker caps your characters, but then you get thingamajig levels on all characters. Just the extra and complicated bloat on the classes/jobs panel alone makes me frightened. Those systems have merit, other games have made something of them and it can work. But I remain convinced that just squishing things is easier for everyone. Whatever they choose, I just hope I can still smash the everflying fluff out of old raids unsynced for my weekly khloe book.
I don’t like the idea of paying real money to not play the game. I’d rather you can do some work in-game to earn a story skip. Like grind out a bunch of poetics. An alternative to doing the story, but not making the story obsolete.
Skipping the story would only hurt the game, there's no benefit to be gained out of it. Also throwing a new player into the endgame with all of the endgame system is ensuring they wont last a month.
@@aftertone3146 I reject that notion. If someone takes the system seriously they can learn it. As is evident by the people who can do it.
I don't see the issue going up more levels past 100 but I guess I'm weird
I like the system of guild wars 2 where you have mastery rank that acts as its own leveling pace. It could of course come with its own skills but feels like a good alternative
Just make sure it is not mandatory in content. Like leyline gliding is mandatory to clear xera. I had to spend so many hours in maguuma to get that mastery. It was not exactly very fun
@@medivh1035 100% agreed there!!!
@@medivh1035 Fortunately, that was the only mistake GW2 made, everything else mastery related, is gucci. It'd be a good addition to FF14 IMO, good suggestion.
Adding to that with the story skip stuff look at how GW2 handles the journals that you can choose which expac/story you want to play as long as you meet the minimum requirements (though they cap at 80 in the core game and went to masteries so FF would have to do some serious rework on their leveling system to support something similar)
Idk, I've played gw2 since 2012 but Mastery ranks always felt like a grind to me... And they just kept growing each expansion. Locking mechanics like gliding and mounts behind them also frustrates new players and drives them disinterested (though I know they improved it by giving them the raptor early on).
Also the actual levels in gw2 lost their impact altogether. Leveling to 80 is basically a tutorial... Eventually you just skip leveling on new characters altogether.
As a concept of extra levels after endgame, Masteries are not a bad idea, but they still add up with each new expansion. So a grind for mastery rank 455 for example would seem daunting (though in gw2 it is account wide I guess). Numbers will have to be squished anyhow, because it just feels random, unachievable and disheartening to new players. Never mind the XP grind Zzz...
It reminds me of Hongmoon levels in Blade & Soul, and those were squished too iirc. We don't talk about that game though.
I think if anyone new coming into an MMO is intimidated by a level cap, maybe shouldn't be playing MMOs? That's kinda part of the MMO experience is going thru a LOT of content. I know I have a bias cause I've been playing them half my life, but I never understood that intimidation. Unless it's someone trying to rush to end game just take your time and play as much or as little as you want and you'll get there eventually. Not to mention FF sells straight up job, story and level skips.
I would really love to see something like the merit/job point system in FFXIV as much as I'd like to see gear sets that introduce additional effects instead of higher item levels. But I won't get my hopes up with the way they streamline everything. It's probably the layer of complexity affecting even the battle system (if we're talking haste effects for instance) they'd definitely want to avoid. And as soon as they'd start giving players the choice to pick stats or skills a whole bunch of other problems would arise aswell, like people demanding everyone picking the meta or they won't be allowed to come with... :/
Realisticly speaking I can see them go with a level squish or even just stopping at level 100 and going for only item level increases from there, with the added benefit for them of not needing to introduce more skills and balance everything again for already existing jobs. (They could still rework stuff, of course. To keep things fresh.)
I don't get why devs and players are so afraid to see "110" or "120". As long as the EXP is relative, it's a nothing burger.
The current players aren't, but a new player is likely to be put off by such a daunting task.
@@Mrhappy1227 That's why I mentioned EXP. If it takes the same time to level from 1 to 90 as it does from 1 to 130, it's not any more daunting then before.
I recently started a new character in 14 so I could experience the MSQ as a new character (My main is a meteor survivor). I was level 90 before I finished Shadowbringers, and all I did was MSQ content.
Getting up there in level with your first class isn't a problem. It's the 200+hours of story.
FTR, the ARR story is (or at least was) slightly different if you are a meteor survivor. I need to hit up NG+and see if it's is still how I remember it.
Level squish is probably the solution. As for the story, I don't like the 'skip to next expansion' button like in WoW. In WoW, I couldn't have told you the story of any expansion prior to BFA besides the initial premise. There needs to be a way for players to experience a condensed but sensible version of the story. Maybe start folks in 6.1, have them level to 50 to get to 7.0 content, and then each time a character pops up in the story, show a recap of how you know them. This might work really well due to how the Scions are segmented in the patch content, so you wouldn't meet everyone all at once and be overwhelmed with story and info. For the extra curious then, you'd have the Unending Codex and New Game+.
Leveling new jobs is pretty painful atm. So a level squish would really help.
Right now the combat is pretty bad from 1-50 or 1-60 depending on your job. But right when your job actually starts to become engaging the exp gains slow down tremendously from 60-90. Plus your only really options for leveling are either dungeons or deep dungeons + your daily roulettes. It gets old fast and sometimes you’ll be stuck doing the same dungeon that you may dislike 3-4 times. Sure you have Bozja in later levels as an option but it doesn’t actually teach you how to play your job properly and requires a good bit of time investment to unlock if you’re new.
Something needs to be done. With the current leveling speeds it’s gonna be ridiculous telling a new player that to play a second or third job they’ll need to go through this process for 100 levels.
As someone who had to suffer through the hell of leveling RDM but getting lower level dungeons, I get it. Jobs that start at a higher level just do not function properly below that starting level. Why does RDM get Verthunder II and Veraero II at two different levels? Sub-Lv50 content is just… not great.
I have to completely disagree. The story is the game. If you want to skip it buy a boost. To just out level the story level and not know who someone is because a player couldn't be bothered to finish an expansion or why xyz is happening just doesn't work.
Edited to correct spelling
I wonder if would be a good idea to make Advanced Jobs... ? Similar to what they did in ARR, you put two classes together to make one brand new job. Such as, you hit 100 in Sam and 100 in Nin, and you can become a Level 1 Kensei (Sword Saint)? 7.0 would max you at 100, and then starting with 8.0 you can hit Advanced Jobs or rename it to 'Careers'? The Career classes are equivalent to level 101 (fresh coat of paint) but are listed as level1, 2,3, etc. You just have to hit the prerequisites to unlock them. Maybe that's how we can get Geomancer, Green Mage, etc.
Intresting :)
I like this Idea
They already moved away from that idea.
While I do understand where you're coming from, I don't think there needs to be a "solution" for players getting to the most recent content faster. Players feeling that they need to "catch up" is much more a personal problem than an issue with the game itself.
On the contrary, I think the dev team's "no child left behind" approach has done more harm over the past few years as is. To be more specific, I think they should focus more on teaching players how to properly PLAY the game vs. pushing them THROUGH the game as fast as possible.
No - this is not me being "elitist". Yes - I am aware that average player skill level is largely an NA data center problem (and a bit of EU from what I've heard).
For the dungeon issue that would come with the level squish, I would say either adjust the bonuses from roulettes or add new tiers. That way you have an incentive to go back and clear dungeons you may have skipped. Either clearing so many dungeons unlock a rewards threshold until you hit the max reward amount. Or just new roulettes that require certain dungeons again like how Expert works or how some of the roulettes use to work.
Story skip should not even be considered until we are at least multiple expansions into whatever the current saga is, and even then should only skip to the start of that saga (i.e. 6.1). The story is the main feature of FF14, letting people skip it is like telling them that it doesn't matter, which is doing an enormous disservice to the game and will ultimately harm new player impressions. Sure you can argue that new players don't HAVE to skip, but we all know they will if given the option.
GW2 has a system where you get to 80 from the base game itself, then anything past that is skills obtained within expansions, learned with XP and grinding in expansion areas/gathering items in said areas. while i Really Dont think they should just copy that system as is, i think they could at least analyze how that game does it.
GW2 is an excellent one to borrow from for this idea.
Yes, GW2 is horizontal progression, not vertical progression. It would be a good move after the lvl 100 cap.
The mastery system is a really good idea. However, I always felt like Anet was always hit or miss with what the masteries give the player, some are really great like jade bot revive and bloodstone (which is also disabled in high end content to avoid breaking the encounter) , but others only work in specific maps or aren't really all that interesting.
Borrowed power systems work well for side content (Bozja, Eureka, etc), but I feel like it's a mistake to use it in MSQ or raids.
It feels awful to be given skills for an expansion only to be told "you lost it because you're in a different zone now" the moment you get to the new expansion
I don't think that story skip would work. People would have no idea what is happening by the time they would hit stormblood entry level :/
the only way I can think of a story skip working is if it gave you like a 5-10 minute animated story monologue telling you the major plot points you skipped before starting the next expansion. somewhat like the Genesis dlc for the later ME games that gave you a overview of the previous game and let you select some of the story 'choices' to carry over.
Why not? Just let them Start at the End of 6.0 with the complete Fresh Story Arc at lvl 80. You could Breakdown the Complete Hydaelyn/Zodiarc Arc in a 20 minute Cutscene before you Start the Game.
@@DantoriusD if i remember correctly this is actually what yoshi p brought up if i remember correctly back in the start of 6.1 or around that point yoshi p brought up that eventually once they get enough story set up for the next arc they will give the option to new players to either start in arr or start in 6.1 and go from there so personally a level squish may happen if they actually do go that route since imagine a new player choosing 6.1 only got 2-3 xpacs to lvl 100+ lvls per job?
@@DantoriusD Might work depending on where the story goes - even then, you will have no connection to the characters and any reference they make to past experiences will be completely lost on you.
Instead of level Cap they can go with a Mastery or Gear level system like GW2. I personally would prefer Mastery, because gear level would just be another nuanced way to say Item Level, while with mastery they can do something unique, like allow us to get special upgrades to already existing skills and abilities, not a vertical increase in power mind you, but more of a horizontal one, for example in TERA online you could use something similar to slightly alter a skills effects, like add a bleed to an AoE, or lower the cooldown of a certain skill when you use another skill.
What they really need to do is add an option to opt out of low level dungeons via roulette, I am completely serious. I am okay with sprouts, but I don't effing want to run Sastasha every day when I just want my damn tomestones and an 8 minute dungeon shouldn't take me 25 because a sprout doesn't know wtf to do or because of the level sync no one in the party has AoE, so we are forced to slog through enemies one by one. Let the sprouts play together, to them the 25 minutes won't seem much because it's a fresh experience, but to me a 10+ year Vet, it's an effing slog and I only have 2 hours of free time every evening as is and 25 minutes is too much of a loss. Mentors can keep doing the low level dungeons if they want to mentor, but I am not a mentor and I don't want to be responsible for newbies.
Now bring on the hate train.
They could have a seperate level progression per major story arc. I.E: 1-90 for AAR through endwalker and then 1-whatever level for 7.0 forward with an option to toggle between them depending on what content you're doing.
This guy has nailed it 👏
I like the idea of master levels. Would go nicely with something I'd like to see, Master Jobs. Do another job change progression into a Mastery job. At this point in the story we are done all the individual job quests, and we should get a chance to move onto a higher role.
I like the idea of jobs that upgrade the jobs but the only thing I would like to see from it is options. Like having two options where one is just a further enhanced version of say paladin and the other is they change the fundamental flow of the job but while still using their base job abilities. Like change the rotation with different upgrades and new skills. As example right now paladin goes burst with the spells making them more like a holy knight than a paladin, so what if the alternate option flips that so it is spells support the melee instead by giving a buff every time they are casted. Just examples and ideas that give jobs more differentiation amongst themselves so no two paladin is the same. I know that would mean more work for them but it is the type of thing I would like to see if they do something past the level cap.
That's good, maybe masterclass for each role. Rip to dps jobs since theres so many
@@TorchicEX while this sounds great it would sadly go against the teams general design philosophy
@@ronmexico7256 Yeah, everything about it leans against them getting it done but it would be nice. I know a lot of people that want jobs to have more differentiation but to do so would take a lot of work, especially if for there to be 2 advanced jobs for every job that would be a lot of management. It would be cool but as of this point I have no idea what they plan to do for a new system to replace leveling that just isn't another leveling system.
I personally only ever found that ignoring the story altogether only makes me drop MMO's and other games because there's only so much pretty lights and flashes can do while mindlessly grinding. Also boosting to the qualifying level also comes with every skill that class(es) posses and the daunting amount of system bombardment is also a quit moment. So I've always been against content skipping. Making things more streamline is one thing but throwing a new player into the wolves, specially if they arent MMO veterans already, its almost guaranting them dropping, I think.
Option number 3: 8.0 (or 7.0 idk) is back to level 1 akin to doing a prestige in modern games, or ascended job just like in Ragnarok Online. If you're to visit, or undersize a past content, you will be be leveled back to an appropriate level, or the max lv prior to getting a prestige accordingly. Undersizing the last max level content would have your stat augmented solely by the prestige gear's max ilevel and stats.
Will never happen but I still want advanced job upgrades, Like Black Mage -> Black Wizzard/Magus etc
How does a level squish as you described affect queueing for dungeons? I imagine the entry level for those would have to be adjusted.
Most dungeons are unlocked via MSQ or sidequests that open up via MSQ progress. All of the one's that unlock at certain levels can just have iLVL requirements -- which they really already should do. Lot's of new players end up overleveling the MSQ, unlocking dungeons like Qarn and Aurum Vale early, and then getting demolished by trash packs due to low iLVL unless they slow pull.
After level 100,do the level squish to 50 and make the raid/dungeon level requirements to half,and round up/down which ever there is no conflicting dungeon/raid requirements.
Ex satasha lvl requirements now is 15 so cut down half to 7,5 and round down to 7 so now satasha lvl requirements is 7.for raid such as ucob just cut it half from 70 to 35
I like the idea of "Ascended" jobs, when you reach 100 and we go wherever the story takes us, we 'go beyond' our normal power and 'ascend' to a higher power. So say a Paladin would become a 'High Paladin', Dragoon becoming a 'High Dragoon' etc. etc. It would set us back at Level 1, but with the power of a former Level 100 and our rotation changes in the ascended form.
In reality it'd all just be a fresh coat of paint and particle effects, but the base code would just be giving us our stat increases as we would normally get. And we could call it like, Level 10a or something. The idea would obviously need tweaking to fit the game and future game design, but I like it a lot as a starting point. Granted it doesn't solve the issue of people complaining about having to gain 100+ levels, but this is the first I've ever heard that complaint (not that it doesn't exist I'm sure).
Kinda like a class promotion from Fire Emblem
@@strategicjedi7667 or just like a class promotion from the original Final Fantasy. Red, Black, and White Mages became Red, Black, and White Wizards
Sword Saint for Paladin
@@tenjenk Yes then you can feel like TG Cid from Final fantasy tactics that would be sweet lol
Levels could stop at 100, but have main or side content quests "unlock" gear tiers or ability upgrades or the like.
I don't understand the problem with the current level system. What are the downsides of just increasing levels? Large damage/hp numbers have been handled by stat squishes so far. Seems fine to continue. I do think skill bloat is a problem, but that is a separate issue. (Personally, I think all skills should be handed out at lower levels, and just make high levels purely for equipment and story progression. A cool idea could be to have upgraded skill animations as a leveling reward as opposed to getting entirely new skills.)
A level squish would make job quests more confusing imo. Right now, it is easy to remember that ARR job quests are every 5 levels. If levels get squished, it gets confusing. Especially for older players who are used to and have memorized the levels needed for all the unlocks. Even if you squished the levels, it doesn't change the fact that you have to do the MSQ. So it's not getting rid of the barrier to entry.
I really want the higher level skills available to the lower level
Imagine a poor sprout first time to an mmo having at level 16 45 skills, come on 🤣
@@Talking_Ed "it not that hard all you do is-" 1 minute rotation
Personally I just assumed we would get to level 99 eventually. 🤔 Because it’s a Final Fantasy tradition. 😆 But it’s certainly not necessary. Of course, that will depend on what kind of content Yoshi’s team still want to implement. Stronger enemies don’t necessarily require stronger skills. Hmmm.... 🤔 If they increase the level cap won’t they need to add new skills? And if so, won’t they need to tweak the old ones? Again? Am I the only one who feels we have too many skills already on our hotbars? 😅
In my head cannon I assumed they'd create a "Advanced Job" or "Ascended Job" system similar to job stones. Such as Paladin -> Holy Knight / Judge or something, and then have a 99 Job / 10 (incremental increase with expansion) Advanced Job. In terms of tying it in with the game's lore, they could even make it so the trials of the 12 are a part of the ascension path. In the past I was thinking they'd end the story arc at level 99 and then have the Ascended Job start at level 1 (but with similar combat strength as a 99) and then make it so you can choose which arc you want to start in as a level 1 class or a level 1 Ascended Job.
Sounds neat what would black mage be? Black Wizards?
@@DarkZeroUnit Grand Wizards, lol.
(Actually don't. It's a bad connotation)
That's what the Class system was originally. A way to get more levels out by requiring you to level another class to get to Jobs.
@@notmousse what about dark knights dark templar?
@@janematthews9087 I'd go for black wizard
most suggestion here dont solve the problem. Something extreme needs to be done to solve their concerns about leveling. Get rid of levels through experience. Tie leveling to job quests then later tie them to role quests
I would like them to keep the lvl numbers as is. Instead calling it lvl 101, call it lvl 1. For new players, have them choose to start at ARR or start at the new expansion. The new players can choose and learn there jobs by a new Hall of the novice story line to learn fundamentals and core mechanics of the game. It’s not a perfect idea, but something that can be tweaked.
Did you set the intro to your facecam by mistake? Genuinely curious
I believe that, by the end of 6.5, we will have the means to travel to other shards and will have resolved the plot with the Thirteenth. This will give us the option to visit other shards. To resolve the problem with levels, I would add a system of leveling tied specifically to each shard, basically saying that our "attunement" with the shard is growing, allowing us to reach full strength again, and level syncing our stats down while still retaining our overall level. Call it crystal level or something similar, then give us new abilities unique to each shard. Endgame savage level gear could have a eureka-like effect, giving special bonuses while in that shard, still giving an overall sense of progression.
Also solves the problem of needing stat squishes in the future, since we're just growing to our current insane level of strength again.
I don't think it's a perfect system, but I do think it's an interesting solution that works with the probable story progression (exploring and helping the other shards, while some greater threat to the shards as a whole grows in the background) that also gives an in for new players to skip the current story, since they could be a strong adventurer testing the shard-teleportation system.
If the FFXIV team goes the shards route, we have a ton of potential, not just for leveling, but for stories. Imagine leveling in a new shard while also mentoring a younger version of ourselves, similar to the relationship with Iroha in FFXI.
This sounds like a fantastic idea.
Wouldn't that just end up being a borrowed power system? What happens to your new kit when a new expansion comes out and you move to a different shard?
@@Vokoca Sort of. I'd like to think we have enough tools at this point to have a core kit, with each shard having some variation on our core kit. Using Paladin as an example, perhaps a new feature in the next shard would be that attonement becomes an ogcd, making it a much faster playstyle than before, while in the next, shield bash can combo out of holy shelltron for some good damage. New abilities could also be implemented that change up playstyle as well. Would give variation to each class based on the shard we're in, keeping the theme of shards being variations of the source. Maybe if a variation feel particularly good or fun to play, it could be included in the core class in some way?
Like I said, I think the idea could use some refining before it could be implemented. Button bloat could get rough for some classes. Losing cool abilities would hurt, especially if the next shards wasn't as fun. Among other things. I'd love to hear any thoughts on how to improve the idea though.
What about Meracydia and the New World?
@@Dharengo Haven't a clue, honestly. I could be entirely off base with my assumption. Could be the focus of an expansion, could run in parallel somehow? Not sure how you could use my idea and still keep those areas relevant, when they obviously need to be.
I’m just getting into heavensward, so I’m not as filled in as everyone else on what exists. But what if the solution is to create the “master jobs” on the soul crystals. A reference to ff3 in my example: after finishing the levels in the job for the soul crystal for, let’s say white mage, a quest line opens up where you can limit break it. The white mage job evolves to the “Devout” class. Or, the black mage becomes the “Magus” class. You can still equip the job stone and have access to the whm/blm classes, but a menu on the item when right clicked will allow you to limit break it back and forth. The evolved class reduces to something like level 50 or 70, but retains the stats of cap level classes
It depends on the story. I think if we keep going to shards it be shard only areas like eureka and the elemental levels. Mastery ranks are good too. But it really depends on how the story goes. I never played wow because entire chunks of story are lost when you get to a level point you zoom ahead.
WoW actually mostly fixed that in Shadowlands believe it or not. Now, as a new player you do the Battle For Azeroth story until your level 60 and then you can start Dragonflight. For any additional characters you can choose to do any expansion (or a mixture of zones you happen to like/find the most efficient or whatever) until hitting 60 and starting Dragonflight. Its actually a super nice leveling experience now, although it is a little easy.
My concern is how I'm going to fit more keybinds in my three already full hotbars.. already difficult to press 9 keys with 2 modifiers. I can't imagine having to use a third.
I personally have never had a problem with someone genuinely skipping the story if they have no interest in it. My concern though falls into two camps. One is that people unfamiliar with a game like FF14 and who have been 'trained' by other MMOs to just rush to endgame may skip, not realising how much of the game they are wasting for themselves, particularly since it can lead to them spoiling themselves if they gain interest later. I have met quite a few players, particularly from WoW, who rave about the story but said if it wasn't required they would have skipped past it all and never realised how good it was.
My second issue, which is a more personal one, is that as a 'lore and story guy', I inevitably have people who have skipped and become interested in the story come to me and ask me to explain/summarise everything they have skipped. Putting aside how much time it takes, it gets REALLY tedious having to go over everything multiple times, particularly if they get impatient and want a short version. Saying 'you could always go back and play it again on New Game+' generally doesn't solve the issue either since most don't want to put that much time into it. Yeah I know, a pretty lame personal gripe but after having gone through this multiple times at this point it is getting tiresome. Doesn't help there aren't that many good summaries I can direct them to online.
I have a friend who did this to me. Where he kept asking questions and I was like go do new game plus of look at the story book in your Inn room. It’s super annoying when people do this.
Free story skips would be a mistake. The story is the premier feature of FF14, you would be doing a massive disservice to the game by essentially telling players that it doesn't matter. So many times I've seen people who say they loved the story but would have skipped it if they had been given that option because that's just what other MMOs have taught them to do. A story skip makes the game more "accessible" but in the long run will damage it because players won't get invested. More people will start, but fewer will stay.
@@VideogamesPang The story is pretty amateurish and even repulsively bad at times, nobody who skips is missing much.
"They gotta do something"
I don't agree. It's fine how it is. So this level squish. If the pacing stays the same it just means you level half as fast. And if you level faster and do that skip content idea of yours, well what if you don't? You're leveling through half and expansion without getting any stronger? Not to mention having to rebalance everything if they change the pace of leveling. Obviously WoW changed it to play through one of several expansions in the early levels, but that really doesn't work with FFXIV.
And doing 10 more levels and just calling it something different... why?
Honestly, I don't want any story skip at all in any capacity. What is the point of playing a story heavy game if you're just going to ignore it. They feel intimidated by how much story there is, then the game isn't for them. Gatekeeping is a good thing I've learned over the years.
One idea I've always had was keep the level cap at for example 50, but then have expansion levels. Like a level that goes up to 10 for that expansion. Essentially, you're gaining experience fighting in that region(s) of the world and it caps at 10. You have these 10 levels for every expansion, but you can hop around between expansions doing content there that puts levels towards that. With that system, you just hit 50 on an alt job and can just skip to leveling it in the latest expansion instead of taking it through all the others.
Granted, you still have to deal with all the story a player currently has to level though.
Been saying that's what wow needs to do for years.
I loved going through the entire story! I was completely new to playing an MMORPG and gaming in general. Don’t forget new players and I mean totally new raw players. We need the learning curve. There must be a way to do that no matter what established players get to skip. From experience trying WoW, the game has no impact if you don’t care about the characters and you don’t get that without living through the entire story.
I like the idea. GW2 has something called fractals, where your progression is tied to how much of a certain kind of damage you can tolerate (agony). You can't access the higher-level mini-dungeons until you have a considerably high level of agony resist. A simple and somewhat elegant solution.
I remember when I played ESO, they had a system (that they relatively recently reworked since it was kinda one sided depending on what you wanted to play) where you fill in parts of a constellation when you hit the max numerical level that improve you in various ways, but not in the way of gaining traditional levels. Would be something to consider anyways.
One thing though that I have noticed is that, even when levels are capped in various dungeon and boss trials, some of them go down WAY too quickly, and can just be burned through. It would be nice to have something in place for them where (save for health and/or mechanic adjustments similar to the level 50 MSQ dungeons/Ultima Weapon fight) it wouldn't be just something you can just burn through and be done with it.
Yeah, so the deal with the trials that just seem to keel over nowadays is that they don't have item level sync. Which isn't a problem for trials below max level of that expansion, but if you get say, Singularity Reactor in Heavensward, because it has no ilvl sync, your effective ilvl when level synced is 270, which is a whole 128 item levels beyond the minimum item level around which the trial is balanced.
Thankfully, it seems they started implementing ilvl sync for MSQ trials with Endwalker, so the likes of 89 and 90 trial shouldn't lose their impact over time. And maybe (at least, I hope so) they will introduce ilvl sync backwards in the future, so that the likes of Singularity Reactor, Royal Menagerie, or Dying Gasp don't just end in 5 minutes with no struggle.
@@val7885 Well if they can give full on reworks to the level 50 MSQ dungeons as well as Ultima Weapon, I wouldn't rule it out at all :)
What about just starting over for the story arc? You have Warrior of Light lvl 1 - 99, and at 7.0 have New Arc Name lvl 1 - 99. Just have a level tier for each 10 year arc.
A possible work around to constantly raising the level cap, keep the level capped at 100 for when 8.0 eventually drops, then shift the level cap of each expansion down by 10. ARR would need a touch of a rework from lv1-50 to lv1-40 (and eventually 1-30 for 9.0, 1-20 for 10.0 and possible 1-10 for 11.0... if the expansions ever get that far) with a bit of restructure to the MSQ, Job/Class & Sidequest levels while including a stat-squish and shift the level cap for each expansion down by 10.
If they are starting a whole new story arc, they could just have everyone start at level one. Kinda like when you switch jobs. But only for the new arc. That way new players could start at the new story if they wanted to.
Yes thats what I was thinking they could make it so that there is Two Main Story Quests each with their own unique stories that take place in completely different worlds or completely different continents.
Some Asian system of "reincarnation". You will be level 1 again, but you will be stronger compare to the original level.
I would like to be able to move around or sort the saved waymark sets so I can group up similar ones and keep it nice and tidy.
None of the mentioned solutions solve the underlying issue. Nor do I think it’s as big of an issue to begin with. A level squish is a thing I could see happening eventually, although it is a massive undertaking, and only solves the aesthetic issue.
They already have a way to skip to the next expansion though, the story skip potions. Although I am unsure about them costing real money (paying money to not play the game is kind of a no no to me), there has to be something of a barrier to it. Maybe an in-game one. Maybe it costs 5 tokens that cost 2k poetics each? Don’t get hung up on the number, it can be anything really, higher, lower, a different currency entirely, my point is you have to do something for it in-game. It’s an alternative to doing the story, but it doesn’t make the msq obsolete.
But most of all, I encourage all new players to just do the story. There is no rush to get to ‘endgame’. The entire game is the game. The game doesn’t just ‘begin’ at endgame. In fact, I generally have the most fun when I’m doing new story content. Savage raiding I’ve tried. It’s whatever.
If we get master levels, can we get some job complexity back with it?
The biggest issue I see with a level squish is how they would handle the dungeons, if they go from say max level being 100 to say 50 then how do they handle the dungeons? They cant realistically just change the level required to go into them because they would also have to drastically change everything in the dungeon number wise potencially including mechanics and enemy density depending on the tools the players would have available to them at the new level after the squish.
They kinda did that already with Endwalker. Just to remind you, Level 80 tank in Shadowbringers in ilvl 520-530 gear had around 180-190k hit points at patch 5.55. In patch 6.3 lvl 90 tank in ilvl 620 gear has aroun 90-95k hit points. That is significant stat squish and all dungeons/trials/raids were affected by it because balance had to be updated.
Dungeons are already every 2 levels. Would be real easy to make one for every level instead.
@@SapphireDragon357 but with 2 Dungeons on the same Level AND Huge Parts of Story in between then you would feel to make absolutely 0 Progress. Were talking about roughly 10+ Hours for only 1 Level.
They dont require lvl, they require item level. And the items require lvl.
So what would the problem be?
@@DefenderX They do require level though. You have to be X level and Y ilvl to enter a dungeon. Theres also the problem of pacing that Dante mentioned that I didnt think about. They would have to in addition to the numbers in the dungeons also have to completely repace the story to compensate for the slower level progression.
I think the main issue is not really 'stat growth' at this point but more a mean to get the new abilities or updated abilities in the player's hands. I feel that once we hit Lv.100, we technically wouldn't need to "Level up" further but we'd need a way to earn the new expansion's actions. Gear will always be the gateway to straight bigger numbers so really, if 8.0 comes around, instead of a Lv.110 cap, we could still be Lv.100 but have a system in place to earn those new abilities.
That of course doesn't take in account that some jobs go through complete overhauls between expansions so that there's no bloating of the hotbars but much like some abilities end up evolving with levels instead of simply being added, I figure whatever comes in the latest expac could be dealt differently.
Heck, idea that I just thought of : using a combination of role quests and Wondrous Tails for that progression. Have the role quest work as it does now but the last quest becomes a daily quest / repeatable quest, somewhat like beast tribes, that earns you "role points" of the role you're doing it for, so "Tank Points", "Healer Points", "Melee DPS Points", etc. When you accumulate enough of these points, you can invest them and unlock a new tier of abilities for that role OR pick which job of that role to unlock a new ability for. Those could be earned by doing things related to your job, like "run a Lv.80 dungeon as a tank" or "complete trial X as a healer".
And either you unlock a new role tier (so all your role-related jobs get a new ability, updated ability or trait) or you use those role points to 'buy' the next ability in the tier list of the job you want. So if you earned 100 Tank Points, then you could unlock the next Dark Knight ability that's in their progression.
Well they can do a "New Game+"-ish kind of treatment to it where you're brought back down to Level 1 but you retain the abilities you have. Basically similar to the Master Level system in 11, sans the extra clutter of being a lv99, ML 10, etc.
No
@@project_Akira k
Why can they add the command for non PC players
The master levels sounds like a good system and I would prefer that over a level squish. The game can cap at level 100 then switch to master levels after that.
simple soluation you can add Star Icon which half one is required to equip a gear past level 100 and would count if it was level 105 , but won't gain any status bonus from a actually level , but use the gear to boost up your stats.
So like if you finish the expansion you have 1 full star so it will be level 100 +1 star which requires a full star to equip all the gear in that current expansion and the next expansion you would need to be level 100 +2 stars.
In the lore didn't they describe a second power, Dynamis, it's what allows us to break our limits. Why not progress into Dynamis levels. Set us back to 1 and we get a whole new level system and range going forward.
That would be cool, but I imagine that with any sort of system that introduces an additional level scale, things could become cluttered really fast. You can see very easily what leve you or anyone else is right now and there is no ambiguity or confusion surrounding it. I would have to assume that this would become much worse as soon as you introduced a new number. At that point, do you still even show the old level? If not, how do you differenciate from the new level to make it as easy to parse as possible? If you don't hide it, where do you show the new number, and does it take priority over the old one?
We already have stuff like the element levels for eureka, and those are pretty hard to get to unless you are currently in the content they were made for. Would new expansions have to only work with the new level system too?
@@Vokoca arguably, it could be a new expansion type thing only registerable in those areas. Although fairly pointed out that any new system will be both a step forward and back. It will be difficult to make any system work, while making everyone happy with it.
It would be cool to start giving alternate abilities but at the same time that would make raiding optimization really annoying for anyone not into that.
i still think there's a lot of fetch quests and go to x and talk to y then come back and talk to x type quests that they could cut down on. Even in the current expac they keep introducing quests that make me run through the zone I already went through just to talk to someone that I could talk to without having to run through the zone again. I think a level squish along with cutting down on a lot of the fluff in the story would go along ways to lower that barrier to entry. The biggest complaints I've heard about the new player experience is the story is to long and the early job kit is super boring to play because of the long gcd and lack of abilities.
Yeah, this is pretty much my thought. If they trimmed down the fluff with some of the early quests, and gave most jobs more buttons early (like they did with monk) or gave them more of their 70 kit pre 70, it would make the early parts of the game feel like less of a chore, and less of a quit point for new players.
One thing that comes to mind would be adding tiers to jobs or other aspects. More on the idea of giving a growth aspect with a small benefit. So after maxing out a job you could upgrade that to an epic tier, then mythic tier. Reset the levels, keep the skills but give a small stat increase.
Then new player could just be one higher tier that's could be balanced closer to end game content or process faster or something similar as an option, and depending how you combine it, could even bring the system of the levesync to bring low level player up, rather than the bringing high level players lower.
Here's my solution:
To keep the tradition of level progression through story I think they could keep level at 99(100) and instead of going past they could focus on powering up the MC's soul crystals. Then by powering the crystals you could still gain power and new abilities but maintaining the level cap.
On a personal note that would give them a chance to bring back more characterization to individual jobs which I've always been a fan off and miss it in the newer content.
Okay so I typed up an idea (expansion specific powers), and was informed that it was similar to "borrowed power" from World of Warcraft, which was negatively received. As someone who hasn't played that game, what went wrong with expansion specific powers and why do players dislike them?
Short version:L
All the stuff you earn, and grind, being taken away, only to make you grind for a suspiciously similar 'skill' in the next xpac makes you feel unimportant, and your accomplishments feel hollow
@@kremlinkoa Hmm to me that sounds like an execution problem instead of something inherent to the system. What I'm thinking of is something like
1. Not any more difficult to attain than the normal leveling process (MSQ for first job, roulettes for subsequent jobs), so no "grind".
2. Skills remain relevant through duty finder. While 8.0 skills are not used for 9.0 content, they're still used when doing content that came out during the life cycle of 8.0 though the duty finder.
3. Skills should be unique between expansions. At least 2 expansions should be waited before bringing back the same or similar skill.
Thoughts?
@@hounddog5 That might reduce the 'we re level for the same stuff' problem, but would exacerbate the 'button bloat' problem. Because your hotbars would need the abilities for each expansion for roulettes
...unless you get the same number of 'new' abilities per job per expansion and they map to 'xpac ability #1' and 'xpac ability #2'
It would still feel a bit like 'we forgot how to use this skill, so it was never really our learning'
There might also be some issues using unsynced mode with content where xpac abilities were worked into the fight mechanics.
@@kremlinkoa Those are definitely super great points that I did not consider!
I think my option 3 would be to do separate expansion levels when 8.0 releases. Since its confirmed that 7.0 is both a new saga and capping to lvl 100. 8.0 would be a continuation of 7.0 but not directly related to ARR-EW granted you could still go through those expansions to get a past view of the lore. It makes sense to change the cap to lvl 100 for EW (granted its 90) and make 7.0 the "reset" so that new players can start the new saga without needing to go through all of ARR-EW to hit 90 and start 7.0 from there. the levels make it seem weird but hopefully it makes sense
Basically level 1-100 could be the current skills and rotation level 100+ could be brand new skills for every class.
Endgame players would abhor this. If new players started in 7.0 that would probably be more welcomed
I left WoW because I couldn’t experience the entire story. I think all new players should have at least the option to go through ARR to EW.
I've aways liked the idea of interacting with classes more past level 30. After 7.0 they might also want to stop introducing entirely new jobs since we will have a ton, so some sort of specialisation that you add on top of your job which changes or adds skills could be a solution to both issues.
For example, white mages could have some 'pure' specialisation which doubles down on the light aspected attacks and big direct healing, as well as a conjurer one that goes back to nature attacks and has a different and more interactive flower growing gague of some sort to build of the lillies. Pulling from lore that's already in the game you could even add stuff like a golemancer in future expansions. A cleric stance option that makes white mage into a caster dps would probably be a lot more work to essentially entirely remake, but if the developers weren't making new jobs then it's not unimaginable that they could eventually put the resources towards it eventually. Astrologians could get back their shield healing mode as well.
If they wanted to pull from 2.0 there could also be some potential to have specialisations that mix two jobs' skills together requiring at least some levels in both. Containing cross-class skills into pre-made specialisations would side step having players make their own builds, so the balancing team can keep every job contained in the same performance range.
Unlike arcanist's split, this kind of system would probably need each specialisation to level independently, since levelling isn't just about marking your main story progress, it also has to feel like making distinct permanent progress and it would feel very hollow to have every new specialisation already levelled when they release. Though if every current job had two or more specialisations I'd hope the levelling process wouldn't take nearly as long as max out.
I think taking the idea of an advanced job skin, more flashy spell effects etc, and having that be tied to a sort of master level, advanced level type system would resolve the issue of using leveling as a yard stick. But you then have to transition to horizontal itemization maybe. It's hard to say really. I wouldn't mind being able to "retrain" my Bard into an assassin from FFTA for example. Get to max level, then progress as a second, optional and cosmetic only job in newer expansions, or get a few new flashy paints of coat on old bard spells [or both!]
Why not draw inspiration from Bozja? Just have an alternate leveling system that only applies to synced content from that specific expansion.
I don’t think it is a good idea to skip the story. If it’s your first time playing you need to be eased into pulling wall to wall (regardless of role) and boss mechanics. By introducing a story skip you will have a bunch of sprouts who have even less an idea of what the various markers mean how to handle mechanics.
If it is not your first time you probably made an alt because you want to go through the story again. Also people can purchase story skips if they don’t want to go through the story.
I played ARR to Endwalker in under 120 days. This is not a lot of time for a game which is supposed to be played long term.
I've done enough max level content over the years, both pre and post buyable skip, to know that no amount of time truly solves the issue of people not knowing markers or mechanics.
The only way to solve the issue of people not knowing mechanics or markers is to have a way to learn them. I still struggle with them. I have had my sister teaching me and that has been SO helpful. There is nothing in the game that comes close. However it does take time to learn these things. Skipping content certainly doesn’t help. I don’t know the answer to the learning issue but it would be great if there were better lessons from The Smith. There was not enough guidance there at all. I usually review. video guides of the raids, dungeons, and trials. That has been the best for me so far. However Duty Roulette will often through me into a fight that I haven’t done in a long time and remembering all the details on mechanics in that situation is not easy.
@@Mrhappy1227 We need hall of novice: raid lmao
Personally I wouldn't mind either "prestige" levels or level squish, but the former feels more rewarding for existing players, cause losing levels even though it doesnt practically mean anything is not satisfying
Being able to skip to the next expansion and X level could work, but it would be cool if they prepared cut scenes to go over the story of that expansion and maybe give you the option at major points to do the corresponding dungeon/trial e.g. ("The WoL in pursuit of their captured comrades followed them all the way to enemies lair." Would you like to complete dungeon X or continue recap?)
I hope and think we will get to lvl 99 then hit 100 only during the last trial as a major event
i mean its easier to smush level 100 back down to 60, put arr - sb 50, and shb to 7.0 60, then the new level cap is at 70 after some adjustments since some of these skills need to get adjusted and changed around for lower cap
This COULD work pretty alright honestly, make each individual level feel a lot more impactful.
Of course one challenge presented is all the different armors between the 50-60 and going forwards ranges. Cause, well… You’d wind up with some overlap and no reason to bother with certain sets of armor really
@@Starlitsoul0359 i would just throw most of the end game gear in the trashbin, turn them all except for tome gear into level 1 glam armor
I suppose at some point they have to invest more on horizontal progression. Level cap may stay at 90, but in the story coming afterwards they would provide some new jobs and new systems separated from 2.0-6.x. Player may still choose to play the new story with their old jobs, but they would have a separated sets of EXP bar and level synced accordingly.
i was honestly thinking the same thing, i would love to just cap at 99 forever next expac, or maybe even 90-95 for 7.0 and 100 hard cap for the rest of the game, Ilvl covers every prog point and there is no real need to lvl after you did it ONE HUNDRED TIMES
Will be interesting to see what they do because changes to leveling also means changes to gear. Even thinking about doing an "isolated" 10 levels for each expansion wherein you grow experienced in those regions or what have you, if they want us to constantly seek gear improvement then there needs to be an incentive behind that too. While GW2 introduces new stats and elite specializations to alter gameplay, they're not "necessary' to playing the new content either while still possibly collecting pieces for the wardrobe and for side collections. Then again their story method allows for more skipping around too and not locking places behind story progression so I wonder if that would also have to change with FF...like you legitimately can't cart people to other map halves or force them into another map if they haven't reached it via story yet.
*_Finishes getting all crafters to 90..._* Now they raised the level cap to 100? AWW, COME ON MAN!!!
@@no-stresscat1519 lol the pains of the crafting tribe always being last for peeps who want it as free as possible
The big thing about levelsquish in my opinion would be that everything would fly by pretty fast with the already copious amounts of ways to easily level. Newer servers are given xp buffs to entice new players, menphinas earing while probably harder to get nowadays being a pre-order bonus is still something, food buff, mentor buffs. Unless they decrease the xp given and force people to trudge through leveling, I wouldn't think a squish to be a reasonable answer.
My idea of the best way to do the squish is 3-fold:
1. Squish the levels down but canonically.
2. Create a new starting experience that leads directly into the new expansion for new players (old story ad NG+ to be revisited when a player wishes it)
3. Revamp the onboarding for training new players. Make sure they get the most up to date mechanical experience.
One solution they can do (which isnt from any previous final fantasy games and is actually from a very old but still alive mmorpg called Ragnarok Online) is to implement a "Transcendence" System, where once you reach level 100 you will have the option to Transcend your limits at the cost of sacrificing all of your power/levels, reseting you back to level 1 while bestowing a new Transcendent Class to your current Class. In Ragnarok's case it was say Knight > Paladin, or Priest > High Priest, or Assassin > Assassin Cross for example.
(I'm intentionally leaving out Ascendance Jobs of Ragnarok Online since im trying to introduce the concept, not bog him down with its more advanced later progression.)
Master Level makes sense. The game already didn't change too much going from ShB to EW, so every expac would just add more Master Levels to tweak the job a bit.
*semi spoiler alert read at own risk*
An easy out to let people skip MSQ up to 7.0 is to have yourself experiencing a different shard of azem. So new players can wake up in 7.0 just as you do in ARR. They could also work this into the MSQ for current players story wise without "undoing" everything we did already fairly easily with not too much creativity needed (not going to list the possibilities here). Think "Chronicles of Azem"
I actually would like some post job 'progression'. I dont see square doing any kind of real job power locked behind progression past max level though. However I think it would be cool if we had some sort of AESTHETIC post job progression system. Maybe being able to change/customize some skill animations would be a worthwhile post max level grind that square would prob be ok with for ff14.
Buying a skip is already an option for those not interested in the story so I don't see much point to that option. Much of the value of an expansion such as EW is built off experiencing that story and perhaps they can create an abridged version as a new player experience, but that doesn't sound very compelling either. I think it will be more that 7.0 creates a new entry point to the story in the way ARR did for 1.0. Everything up to EW will become optional nods to previous events except perhaps retroactively requiring certain encounters like they did with Crystal Tower.
Oh like in 7.0 could be a starting point type thing if I understand correctly? Like what ARR is if you didn't play 1.0 (but without destroying ARR-EW ofc)
old ex-FFXI lvl 75 player here, the Merit system seems interesting, but in terms of FFXIV applications, it sounds too similar to aspects of 2.0 and earlier that Yoshi-P and crew forcibly removed from XIV, namely the potential that min-maxing certain Merit point increases would lead to everyone just doing the same stat increases rather than risking trying more unique combinations. That was the case with the now defunct Attribute points you used to be able to allocate to different stats (RIP to all the SMNs/SCHs who always had to redo those points).
I personally like the idea of putting more choices in the hands of the player on how to upgrade/customize their WoL, but in practice I don't think people would end up really embracing it in more than a couple of the same ways.
I think they'd be wasting a good opportunity to have a new starting point if they don't eventually add a "skip to 6.1" function. ITataru talking to you, presenting the Codex, every character and event being added to it as we go through it, I think it's the smartest way to handle that and I'd be surprised if they didn't
Skipping story is a terrible idea, at least now you have to pay to ruin your experience.
I think for the story barrier they should eventually have a super abridged version of the story through Endwalker that new players can get through faster, but still allowing new players to experience the full thing (if they want to).
I'm all for them making a super cut cinnematic, simular to what they dis with the KH franchise for players that would otherwise skip the content and try to jump into 7.0 immediately regardless. Something like X backcover or the days cinematics. If they can squish even the main story beats down into something like that, I think that would be amazing. Of course, I also think they should still have newgame+ and make it FAR less cumbersome(there are so many annoying restrictions around NG+ it's kinda insane) and I would make it so you can jump into the quests at any quest in the story quest chain, rather than /only/ being able to start at the chapter selects for NG+.
Why not just keep the level 100 and from there on just keep increasing the gearscore? The gearscore can be your level and your gear is adjusted in strength based on that
They could do something like the catch-up cutscene/animation in Mass effect games, 1-2 hours of explaining the whole expansion's story through pictures and stuff, at least to catch you up to speed
Even that would probably turn a lot of people away, because most people won't want to watch a movie before they can even start playing. But as an optional thing, it would be nice to have maybe like Yakuza 2 does, where you can split that summary into multiple videos, maybe based on certain characters, or different arcs of the ARR story.
@@Some__Guy yeah was going to mention, as an optional thing it could work, something you could do piece by piece even so you dont have to commit to 2 hours straight
Time for a new game. As far as I'm concerned you should only level so far, because at some point you have an ability problem and a power level problem. Do you keep adding more abilities and throw old ones away, scale the existing ones, or be able to earn extra xp for abilities individually to improve them? At what point how much more powerful of a boss is there to beat? How do you explain normal mobs being more powerful than a god you just beat as you continue levelling?
You should always plan ahead of time of how long the story, levels, and abilities are going to go, and once they reach that point end them. There should be some sort of 8-10 year cycle for an MMORPG and about halfway through start working on a sequel or a different game. Plus that helps with aging hardware and code. FF has always been about changing up and mish mashing various genres, and I think it would be interesting to see a change of venue and abilities.
I think they could produce a well made cinematic experience resuming the history of the first 3 expansions and then allow players to skip and move on from shadowbringers
Great idea, like an echo flashback.
Why Shadowbringers? That expansion is part of the ARR-EW arc. Makes more sense to do all of that with the 4 expansions and for 7.0 be a starting point
@@atelierbagur3831I assume because Shadowbringers is where the game begins to adopt more of the modern feel, and is where a lot of people feel like the game really hits it's stride. It'd be a easier sell for new players.
They'd never let players do that when they already sell skips on the mogstation
@@OldManInternet It also relies on people being invested with the established world. Nobody is gonna give 2 shits about Norvrandt or Ardbert if you skip everything that came before it, otherwise you get a rip-off FFX/Shin Megami Tensei/Tales of Symphonia story about going around fighting the next big monster of the week with no emotional weight or context behind it.
Seriously my biggest problem with the FFXIV community overselling Shadowbringers.
Imo, the next logical decision for the story (now that one has concluded) is to allow a new entry point almost the way 2.0 did but take advantage of the system where you get different lines given to you by quest givers based on what you have completed.
Then a new player could decide to start in 7.0 or they could choose to start in 2.0 all content still locked behind it's respective quests to make the story lock system continue to do it's thing. Players who are caught up would then be rewarded with different lines for being caught up.
Pair this with some sort of soul stone leveling and you've solved both problems