Did you know this? You can take lessons with Jason with our Trumpet Momentum Subscription Series of videos here on UA-cam. Visit www.whyharrels... to sign up.
You can take lessons with Jason with our Trumpet Momentum Subscription Series of videos here on UA-cam. Visit www.whyharrelson.com/trumpet-momentum.html to sign up.
Hi! I'm a retired and recovering pipe organ technician and builder now amusing myself by trying to tame the trumpet. For a lifetime already I've been swimming in a sea of lore about what makes for the "best" sound in organ pipes, coming to conclusions analogous to yours. I'll be diving into more of your presentations as fast as I can get to them, but in the meantime please accept my heartfelt thanks for taking on this quest for knowledge and sharing the resulting knowledge so effectively.
I read an essay by Renold Schilke basically saying the same thing. What he didn't like was lacquer on horns because of the thickness and rigidity of lacquer
Lacquer adds efficiency which was definitely not in alignment with Schilke's requirements for a "good" playing trumpet. He insisted that energy be lost everywhere in the bell to create more sparkle at the expense of control, stability, projection and overall playability. He was a smart man and a great trumpet player, but did not understand the experience from a non-pro player's perspective.
+Harrelson Trumpets thanks for the reply! It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on Schilke horns. I own a B5 myself and love it, but I haven't played many high end horns
I’m glad you did a study on this- I know with saxophones with a solid silver neck, it makes a big difference over the lacquered or raw brass neck by changing the absorption of vibration through the horn. There is a slight difference in resistance with a solid silver saxophone neck definitely!!
Very good explanation about the varius myths of trumpet finishes. My experience over years of playing is that people who do not play a trumpet add to these myths by saying"oh of course the silver sounds warmewr,brighter. They want to impress other musicians with their huge "knowledge" of music. Sax players in particular are the greatest authorities on trumpet ,especially if they have never played trumpet!
I am an amateur trumpet player, and the one thing ai did to one of my horns was put on aftermarket heavy valve caps top and bottom. It was a silver plated Yamaha Zeno 8335RS reverse tuning slide model. Changing the caps resulted in a marked deepening of the tone of the instrument. I was very surprised at the effect of changing the caps.
I'm holding two identical Schagerl rotary trumpets (Berlin C Heavy), except for the silver plating on one and gold plating on the other. Same mouthpiece- Breslmair G2. The gold plays darker/ warmer and offers a slightly slower response. The gold horn is slightly heavier, probably because of the double plating (silver plating under the gold). At loud volumes one can definitely hear a difference in "ring" where the silver one would cut more. I think it is the reduction of lower overtones in the silver rather than the reduction of overtones in the gold.
Lacquer definitely dampers and darkens the tone of a trumpet, silver plating tho seems more resonant and is brighter than lacquer. Other discussions about DCI bugles too. I play tested 2 same model DEG soprano bugles in G. One was silver plate the other chrome/nickel. The latter was louder and darker same time. It's no wonder that bugle lines in the late 80's after switching to silver plated horns lost a lot of their punch and volume. Certainly the bell throat and thickness of the material are also factors. The old 2 piston American Heritage soprano was triple the volume of a trumpet I think because of this. Bell throat so big couldn't get a cup or harmon mute in it.
I agree with all your points on sound. I have several trumpets and it appears the gold plated horns require less finish maintenance in terms of polishing when compared to a silver plated trumpet. The silver seems to tarnish much quicker than gold. I believe instruments must be silver plated before they are gold plated, as the gold does not take to the brass as easily as silver. Thank you for your post it was very informative.
Gold should not tarnish appreciably even if you left it sitting in a tub of acid or lye. If you gold instrument is loosing it's shine, I'd bet my bottom dollar that it's just getting dirty.
Great to hear, because I wanted a silver trumpet but like the warmer sound. Take it that it is to do with how it is played rather than what it is made of. So will be happy to get GSII Yamaha 4335 :)
@@harrelsontrumpets Thanks for response, only recently started to understand that and changed mouthpieces to produce a warmer sound. Thinking about getting a Getzen 907DLX (Yellow Brass) v 900DLX (Copper Bell) they should sound the same with regards tone?
I see you’ve been doing more videos recently. Would you be willing to do a trumpet material video on yellow brass vs gold brass vs red brass vs sterling/pure silver vs phosphorus bronze and their effect on projection and sound difference?
I was taught that Silver is the brightest due to the hardness of the metal, while raw brass was the darkest because there is no hard covering for the soft brass. I was also told laquer and gold are darker than silver because of the softness of the metal. My silver Bach is very bright, but one of my old teacher's raw brass Bach Strad is the darkest horn I've ever played on. Either way, this was very informative! Could you think about posting a video of what you're saying with a chart laying out the overtones so we can have more evidence of your experiment? I know it's asking a lot, but I'm very interested in this subject and would love to believe which ever side has more solid (no pun intended) evidence for their claim.
Silver is very soft and would not cause brightness in a brass instrument. Lacquer is a hard, yet it does not brighten to tone as the overtone series is determined by the tapers and volumes within the design of the instrument and not in the physical material coating. Gold is definitely not darker for the same reason and because it is typically plated at no more than 50 to 100 microns thick. It's kind of funny when people ask me to post evidence of my "claims". This is very simple science and you can do your own experiments at home with results measured on a phone spectrum analyzer application. Asking me to do the work for you is, well...lazy. Do the work! ;)
Thank you for this video! My Harrelson 905 is in a local shop now getting the gold plating patched. The tech wants to know if I want to have it lacquered to protect the plating. I absolutely love the way my horn plays and sounds. From what I'm hearing, having the horn lacquered would be ok.
I actually believed this myth too. I thought the gold plating was thicker than the silver which cause for a darker sound and for silver horns, it was brighter.
Hi. What about nickel plating? Many people say that the nickel plated finish produces a more velvety sound. Could you help me with this question? Thanks
The thicker it is, the more dead and direct sounding it is (or darker), The thinner the metal, the more it rings and pierces and sounds brassy or bright. On trumpets it doesn't show too much, but on a horn, the length of the tubing amplifies the effect of the lacquer or plating much more than the 4 foot or so trumpet.
There is a persistent myth that thicker metal "deadens" sound, but this is completely untrue. I have proven it hundreds of times. There are some instruments that are built with thick metal that do indeed sound dead, but the cause is not the thicker metal in the general terms you have stated. Many people believe that amplitude or "loudness" is directly related to metal thickness as well, which it actually it, but in the opposite way as another myth. The thicker the metal, the more amplitude is possible. Thinner metal will be overcome by the anti-nodal vibrations reducing the maximum amplitude to a much smaller value.
Harrelson Trumpets So would you say the material that thickens the horn would most have the effect, whether lacquer or raw brass? the length of the horn does amplify the effect right? The difference between a lacquered trumpet and raw trumpet wouldn't be too noticeable, but a lacquered horn would be much more noticeable to it's raw brass counterpart, correct? I actually have a lacquered horn that's quite worn and I want to get the lacquer stripped, and I was wondering what difference that may make, aside from looking much, much better.
Re-lacquering a trumpet with thick lacquer is really the only way to improve efficiency of an instrument that has been worn excessively over time. Unless you plan on major modifications. The other option is to simply purchase some Sculpy clay and bake it onto the horn.
There are other ways of improving efficiency, but a horn that is very worn will always have issues on specific partials where the anti-nodes set the thinner metal into vibration.
What analysis criteria did you use in college to determine this? I question it because of the following.From a physics stand point adding metal (uniform all over plating) will darken and focus the sound. It is just that simple. With 6 very good trumpeters here were the conclusions:Yamaha 6310Z raw brass: Had the best behind the horn feedback and brightness.Yamaha 6310Z lacquer less player feedback sounded less bright and less feedback behind the horn.Yamaha 6310Z silver plated even less behind the horn feedback more focused and darker sound. The horn weighed nearly 2 ounces more than the lacquer and raw brass. Adding a uniform weight to the entire horn (silver plating) is similar to a thicker metal. 100% agreed that the horn sounded darker and projected outward better but behind the horn feedback was reduced.Yamaha 6310Z Gold plated over top of silver plate. 100% agreed that the behind the horn feedback reduced even more. However the sound projected to listener was the most focused and 100% agreed that it was darker sounding which makes perfect sense because adding an extra ounce of weight (the gold plating) on top of the silver plating and once again an addition of weight or more metal added yielded the darkest sound.I saw the same scenario as above with:A lacquered Wild Thing A silver plated Wild Thing A Gold plated Wild Thing (gold plated over silver)From a physics stand point adding metal (uniform all over plating) will darken and focus the sound. It is just that simple.
A scientific study aims to isolate variables to study just one at a time. You are apparently comparing numerous variables within the same set of measurements while claiming the plating and or lacquer are the only variable. You are far from drawing any conclusions. The simplest way to measure energy loss, tone color and feedback variations between coatings is to isolate them entirely. Build a trumpet with a removable bell system, then make 5 IDENTICAL bells. They must all be the exact same taper/flare, thickness throughout every cross-cut, end diameter, bell wire, bead fill, weight and screw mechanism. Now lacquer bell #1, silver plate bell #2, silver + gold plate bell #3, lacquer bell #4 and leave bell #5 raw brass. Using a spectrum analyzer behind the mouthpiece and approximately 3 feet in front of the bell while using an ultrasound directed at the bell from the side, mechanically drive a pitch through the instrument at five different amplitudes ranging up to 120 dB. Repeat on at least 6 pitches (frequencies) throughout the range of the instrument. Now publish your findings and post your results on this page. OR schedule a physics consult with me at Harrelson Trumpets. :)
Not true wantmy! Im with the rest of the crowd that adding metal will not dull the sound, since metal vibrates as metal. If there is ANY difference, it is so small as to be not worth mentioning. Most of the response is due to the build of the instrument.
The way I made my cornet darker was by trying different mouthpieces until I found an M3 which went to a Conn marching mellophone ( the french horn/trumpet looking model) and THAT made it really dark. It doesnt have that...Ssssss - hissssing sound.
This answers all my questions. Who knew my trumpet is less efficient cause most of the lacquer is gone? In the past I've heard silver makes it darker but now I know it does nothing.
And if your bell was repaired and straightened out again, is it possible that this makes the bell sound more dull, less vibrant, less noble? I really have that feeling with my King Golden Flair which is now no longer a living thing in my hands. (Of course it still sounds acceptable)
The problem I had when I played trumpet decades ago was that some were plated better than others. My Signet lost its plating so easily. It went from beautiful two tone to ugh.
You've been hearing from people that are lacking education on how brass instruments are made. It is relatively easy to build 2, 10 or even 100 trumpets to be identical, but it does require work! We use techniques and implement inspection processes that guarantee consistency and results. Harrelson trumpets are not designed to be identical as we custom build every trumpet to the player's specifications. However, we do make identical horns once in awhile if there is a reason (two different clients order the same configuration). You're welcome to schedule a shop visit and see for yourself how we achieve this highest accuracy and consistency in the brass instrument industry today. Email us at harrelsontrumpets@gmail.com
Hi! Thanks for the video. I've got a question - if plating does not affects the tone colour characteristics then why there is almost no plated french horns or trombones? It cannot be caused by the extra costs because silver plating on much bigger tubas is very common.
Personally I think it's mostly cultural. Raw horns and silver plated trombones used to be more common, but I think these ideas about silver instruments being bright have contributed to a lack of them presently. Nearly all orchestral trombone and horn players are going for a huge dark sound these days. Tuba players idolize the Chicago York tubas, which were silver plated. I think they are also more likely to go for instruments that have absolutely gigantic bores and tapers but are otherwise set up to be bright (thin metal and silver plating, for example). I personally think that combo can produce a very versatile instrument, and even a pro is going to have trouble putting enough pressure and air into a .748 bore, 20in bell, 6/4 taper contrabass to cause it to break up! Heck some Kaiser tubas are .846 bore! A bit of silver isn't going to do diddly squat for the sound on something like that!
i had noticed the silver nickel trumpets had a mellower tone to them, at least my bach did compared to my stabdard gold brass trumpet, but then again the bach is the high end pro horn and the conn i had was a intermediate level horn
well from what i could tell its nickel because its gota few small sraches and dings and you dont see brass under it, so, ill have to double check but this horn is the Stradivarius Bach it is the professional horn that was bough in mid 70s if i rember right
I have a question about lacquer.. I'm restoring a '65 Old's Super and I'm curious what the differences in sound and durability between a Nitrocellulose lacquer and an epoxy lacquer would be? (And if there are any specific brands of each type of lacquer that you would recommend). Thanks! -Steve R.
In general, I do not recommend lacquer due to the temporary nature of this surface treatment. All lacquers will crack, peel, scratch and eventually deteriorate the finish. Epoxy lacquers are the strongest and most durable, but the most difficult to strip for refinishing in the event of a repair. The BEST solution is a raw brass coated with a nano-particle protective spray (often found in sporting goods stores).
I'm not disputing him, but with guitars, finish matters. Both electric and acoustic. You will get different tonalities based on whether you use nitro (Martins and vintage Gibson and Fenders), conversion varnish (Rickenbackers), poly/urethane/etc (lots of Strats etc), etc. etc. etc. Different.
the finish does make a huge difference on acoustic instruments made from wood where the resonating surface is usually reinforced by the lacquer, epoxy, etc.
@@harrelsontrumpets But then again, if I hear Greg Spence play a lacquer version and a silver version of the same horn, I hear a great difference (around 4:17): ua-cam.com/video/qAdFrlfUa8o/v-deo.html
So what you’re saying is, it’s more about the size and shape of the horn itself, not the metal materials it’s made of. Makes ya wonder why they continue to create different platings to begin with.
Interesting. how do you test which brightness vrs darkness with by looking at the EQ spikes on an EQ graph? bc im assuming there are objectively brighter and darker horns almost all people can distinguish by ear, but saying this horn is darker than a different dark horn this one seems somewhat subjective to say via hearing tests.
Dear all, I have a lacquered brass trumpet. Its lacquer started to strip off and raw brass becoming visible under it. Especially around the valve casings. Does it damage my instrument? or it is only for cosmetic concerns? and is there anything I can do about it? i need some maintenance tips
Ik this is late, but it's only a cosmetic concern. Re lacquering yourself is not a good idea, so if you want to re lacquer, getting it professionally done can be around 200$ from my experience
The only way it would change the sound is if it were made of the metal that it would be plated onto it. As in if a trumpet were made out of solid silver instead of silver plated brass.
I can tell the difference between a silver trumpet and a brass trumpet's sound. I can hear the difference in a song. If someone played the two of them without me being able to see them, I could tell the difference. You are changing the physics of the instrument. Silver vibrates differently than brass. Maybe if you took someone who has been only playing the silver trumpet for months and put them beside someone who has only been playing the brass trumpet for months. It's easy to be more in control of the brass vs silver sound when you play both of them regularly and transfer between the two of them, then the sounds would become more identical. I doubt the experiment went too far...
Then why can I tell the difference? I have a silver and I have a brass, and I have a silver pocket. IF I play the silver and switch immediately to the brass there's no difference. If I play the silver for a couple months and settle into playing it, same with brass... The sound becomes distinct. Maybe it's a psychosomatic effect? The silver vs brass effect on the player may have something to do with their embouchure and their level of confidence with their sound and their playing. Not sure... but I can tell the difference between the sound for whatever reason. The silver always sounds lighter and smoother, and the brass sounds more chipper and bright toned. Of course all of this is my opinion, but I think a little more research should be put into it than just relative to physics.
@@digtzydogmemechannel5670 I guess the challenge from hammelson is clear--have a shop visit then prove it to him. Let his company sponsor your trip there. Haha
Ugh...I don't like the tone (no pun intended) of some of these comments. I do appreciate the passion though. I transformed my trombone by gold plating the bell. Feels heavy and dark. For large ensembles, I'm not a fan. I was going to have the plating removed and return to lacquer, but I think I'd be better off with a different bell. Does anyone know a trombone tech in the Minneapolis area that shares the same philosophies as HarrelsonTrumpets? I wonder if something can be done with my current setup to thin out the sound a bit.
Changing or over-buffing the bell are both options to reduce efficiency, increase resonance and EVI. Keep in mind that over-buffing the bell will almost always result in less consistent notes withing the chromatic scale. You may want to talk to Jason Jimos, he's in the Twin Cities and could change the bell for you.
In my poor opinion it is the metal on the inside of the trumpet that changes its sound. The hardness of that plating would have an effect but the interior of the tubes is not plated.
This is a great example of both self-delusion, and of the fact that the three most difficult words to pronounce in the English language are I ... was ... wrong. It reminds me of the double-tongueing myth: teachers tell students to use 'd' rather than 't' when tongueing a note, in spite of the fact that a 'd' is just a 't' tongue movement plus a pre-release vocalization. Anyone who's taken a speech science/phonics class could tell you that, but I've had trumpeters curse me out for pointing out their error.
I just ran this by a true scientist friend of mine. He was very clear he's not sure what equipment you were using in the attempt to measure what properties. He said it's impossible according to the laws of science, for three non identical (objects) trumpet surfaces, raw brass, silver plated and gold plated, with three different Atomic weights and properties to produce the identical (outcome) sound. Stated another way three things that aren't the same can't sound the same. He actually laughed when I brought up the discussion.
Oh my! Your "scientist friend" is welcome to visit my Denver shop and see for himself how and why this is true. You did state that, "he was very clear he's not sure what equipment you were using in the attempt to measure what properties" so I can fill him in right here in my shop. :)
@@harrelsontrumpets I like how you answered all your arguments, backed by all your experience and research. Cmon, challenge them by letting them visit your shop, sponsored by your company in the event that they can prove you wrong. Goodlyck to all of them. Hahaha
If this is true, I must have an insane ear, since I can blindly identify raw brass silver plated and lacquered trumpet 90% of the time... so... it isn't. Because I don't have insane ear... period... thickness = dull Density=brightness, you can't have control over the brass plate before it is hammered, you are not in the forge and you can't have control over metal density or over the speed of cooling from glowing metal state... material density is everything in sound. Everything else is pointless.
I challenge you to visit my shop and prove this in person. I have tested thousands of people and they have all been fooled consistently. Even the spectrum analyzer cannot discern between silver, gold and brass 95% of the time.
There is no analyzer can compete human ear, id like to accept the challenge but I'm not in your same country and can't travel to you, ps I have perfect pitch ear btw, i just can identify up to 37 simultaneously note in orchestra, I always doing it for fun it in theater with my colleagues, for me it's normal, but people keep watching me as an alien,
Oh boy, here we go again! Another expert that is conveniently unable to dispute science in person. This is exactly why so many musicians distrust science, because the snake oil gets on everything.
Well just saying my point view, science is real, analyzer is real metal is real, what little spikes, little sharpness, little flatness little imperfections, do to our nervous systems can't be explained with science, and can't be registered with science, I get different emotions with different trumpets and yes I get different emotions with different finish, I don't have to prove to anyone I enjoy my music and my instruments which I can identify, and I'm sure I'd enjoy one of your thousands trumpet out there if I could try them... science is the maximum truth, but if u believe in science you must accept every analyzer is way less powerful than brain, brain reacts to stimuli in different way, more or less convenient, but different, brain can ear things cpu can't, sorry to inform you that computers are less advanced than neurons
When did this become a conversation about the power of a brain versus a spectrum analyzer? Being objective is the role of the analyzer and being subjective is the role of the human brain. They each have their purpose and I use each as intended. I stand by my original statement and expound, "Humans (and their emotions) cannot distinguish between various trumpet finishes to include; raw brass, silver plate and gold plate". This can be proven by building one trumpet with three identical interchangeable bells that exhibit these three finish variations. I HAVE done this and the results are fascinating. Trumpet players and listeners hear no difference and blindly guess again and again with no consistent results or accuracy. I'm sure you have a great ear and that you believe there should be recognition for your abilities, but arguing science may not be the best route for you. :)
If you actually believe 4 non-identical instruments with 4 different materials that have 4 different weights and atomic principles actually sound identical there's no point in furthering this discussion. Enjoy your scientific measurement equipment.
If you would like to have a real conversation about the science behind the sound, then visit my shop in Denver. I'm not sure why you're stating the instruments are of different weights and non-identical. In my experiments, I used the EXACT SAME instrument in all plating and lacquer variations. This was done to ensure the weight and composition did not change throughout the experiment. If you would like to reproduce my results, I'm happy to walk you through the apparatus and process in person. :)
Wrong. Please take the exact same make and model of trumpet one raw brass, one lacquer, one silver, one gold with the same trumpet player with the same mouthpiece. Let us hear all four and then we will decide if they sound different. Whatever you measured in your laboratory has no reality to the human ear. I have played the exact same model Benge Claude Gordon in a lacquer and in a silver and they sound different they play different.
I believe you have experienced exactly what you say, BUT I guarantee those horns were NOT exactly the same. Physics is not something that can be tested with the human ear and trust. You must confirm every aspect of each horn is exactly the same. The simplest way to do this is by testing the horn in brass, then plate the same horn silver and test, then plate the same horn in gold and test, then apply lacquer and test. That would give you the most accurate results. I have done this and hundreds of other experiments with conclusive results. This can also be done by using a modular bell trumpet while changing only the bell plating, etc.
Harrelson Trumpets "The map is not the territory" The machines you use to measure anything are created by man looking for something. Consider for a moment that the human ear is capable of hearing something man has not yet figured out how to measure and quantify in a laboratory. Is that conceivable to you? How long did it take once they figured out photography to learn how to photograph the human aura? Indian Mystic spoke of it for 5000 years before modern technology was able to photograph it. My mother was able to see people's Aura and watch the color change as their emotions changed. People thought she was crazy until they learned of Karelian photography. Then she wasn't crazy anymore she was exceptional. The degree of human sensitivity and awareness is beyond the measurement from simple man-made machine. Perhaps expand your sense of awareness and possibility. Just some thoughts.
Your argument is irrelevant to the matter at hand. It is scientifically possible to discern differences that even the human ear cannot detect in the sound generated by musical instruments. Comparing two very different instruments that also have different finishes, as in your example, proves nothing. Such results are thrown out in scientific studies as are too many unknown variables to an "experiment" that has no defined parameters.
Harrelson Trumpets You're young. Science has new discoveries which prove old science and theories obsolete. Have you heard of the fourth dimension? I'll say this again, just because your science cannot measure it today does not negate its existence.
Harrelson Trumpets Let's quantify something else if possible. Have you measured the sound difference between a regular Schilke mouthpiece and a Schilke heavyweight mouthpiece? They play different and they sound different do they measure different in your laboratory with your science? if you can, please do the experiment and post the results.
You can take lessons with Jason with our Trumpet Momentum Subscription Series of videos here on UA-cam. Visit www.whyharrelson.com/trumpet-momentum.html to sign up.
Hi! I'm a retired and recovering pipe organ technician and builder now amusing myself by trying to tame the trumpet. For a lifetime already I've been swimming in a sea of lore about what makes for the "best" sound in organ pipes, coming to conclusions analogous to yours. I'll be diving into more of your presentations as fast as I can get to them, but in the meantime please accept my heartfelt thanks for taking on this quest for knowledge and sharing the resulting knowledge so effectively.
thank you!
I read an essay by Renold Schilke basically saying the same thing. What he didn't like was lacquer on horns because of the thickness and rigidity of lacquer
Lacquer adds efficiency which was definitely not in alignment with Schilke's requirements for a "good" playing trumpet. He insisted that energy be lost everywhere in the bell to create more sparkle at the expense of control, stability, projection and overall playability. He was a smart man and a great trumpet player, but did not understand the experience from a non-pro player's perspective.
+Harrelson Trumpets thanks for the reply! It would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on Schilke horns. I own a B5 myself and love it, but I haven't played many high end horns
I’m glad you did a study on this- I know with saxophones with a solid silver neck, it makes a big difference over the lacquered or raw brass neck by changing the absorption of vibration through the horn. There is a slight difference in resistance with a solid silver saxophone neck definitely!!
The resistance cannot change unless the shape of the cavity has changed.
Very good explanation about the varius myths of trumpet finishes. My experience over years of playing is that people who do not play a trumpet add to these myths by saying"oh of course the silver sounds warmewr,brighter. They want to impress other musicians with their huge "knowledge" of music. Sax players in particular are the greatest authorities on trumpet ,especially if they have never played trumpet!
hilarious and probably accurate!
Sax players play more relaxed, they have bigger instruments and so they get all the girls after they played Baker Street or Careless Whisper.
I play saxophone and can confirm that sax players would indeed be ones to happen to know everything about all other instruments (except their own). XD
Play both but started playing trumpet at 13yrs only now returning some 50yrs later :)
I am an amateur trumpet player, and the one thing ai did to one of my horns was put on aftermarket heavy valve caps top and bottom. It was a silver plated Yamaha Zeno 8335RS reverse tuning slide model. Changing the caps resulted in a marked deepening of the tone of the instrument. I was very surprised at the effect of changing the caps.
I friggin knew it! Thanks for the informative video, the last bit about lacquer is icing on the cake.
I'm holding two identical Schagerl rotary trumpets (Berlin C Heavy), except for the silver plating on one and gold plating on the other. Same mouthpiece- Breslmair G2. The gold plays darker/ warmer and offers a slightly slower response. The gold horn is slightly heavier, probably because of the double plating (silver plating under the gold). At loud volumes one can definitely hear a difference in "ring" where the silver one would cut more.
I think it is the reduction of lower overtones in the silver rather than the reduction of overtones in the gold.
Hilarious
@@harrelsontrumpets Why is that hilarious?
@@bobcat24 because you're not describing an objective comparison. One trumpet was most likely buffed thinner than the other.
Lacquer definitely dampers and darkens the tone of a trumpet, silver plating tho seems more resonant and is brighter than lacquer. Other discussions about DCI bugles too. I play tested 2 same model DEG soprano bugles in G. One was silver plate the other chrome/nickel. The latter was louder and darker same time. It's no wonder that bugle lines in the late 80's after switching to silver plated horns lost a lot of their punch and volume. Certainly the bell throat and thickness of the material are also factors. The old 2 piston American Heritage soprano was triple the volume of a trumpet I think because of this. Bell throat so big couldn't get a cup or harmon mute in it.
I agree with all your points on sound. I have several trumpets and it appears the gold plated horns require less finish maintenance in terms of polishing when compared to a silver plated trumpet. The silver seems to tarnish much quicker than gold. I believe instruments must be silver plated before they are gold plated, as the gold does not take to the brass as easily as silver. Thank you for your post it was very informative.
Gold should not tarnish appreciably even if you left it sitting in a tub of acid or lye. If you gold instrument is loosing it's shine, I'd bet my bottom dollar that it's just getting dirty.
Great to hear, because I wanted a silver trumpet but like the warmer sound. Take it that it is to do with how it is played rather than what it is made of. So will be happy to get GSII Yamaha 4335 :)
the mouthpiece will determine the warmth of tone just as much as the leadpipe and bell.
@@harrelsontrumpets Thanks for response, only recently started to understand that and changed mouthpieces to produce a warmer sound. Thinking about getting a Getzen 907DLX (Yellow Brass) v 900DLX (Copper Bell) they should sound the same with regards tone?
I see you’ve been doing more videos recently. Would you be willing to do a trumpet material video on yellow brass vs gold brass vs red brass vs sterling/pure silver vs phosphorus bronze and their effect on projection and sound difference?
I was taught that Silver is the brightest due to the hardness of the metal, while raw brass was the darkest because there is no hard covering for the soft brass. I was also told laquer and gold are darker than silver because of the softness of the metal.
My silver Bach is very bright, but one of my old teacher's raw brass Bach Strad is the darkest horn I've ever played on.
Either way, this was very informative! Could you think about posting a video of what you're saying with a chart laying out the overtones so we can have more evidence of your experiment?
I know it's asking a lot, but I'm very interested in this subject and would love to believe which ever side has more solid (no pun intended) evidence for their claim.
Silver is very soft and would not cause brightness in a brass instrument. Lacquer is a hard, yet it does not brighten to tone as the overtone series is determined by the tapers and volumes within the design of the instrument and not in the physical material coating. Gold is definitely not darker for the same reason and because it is typically plated at no more than 50 to 100 microns thick.
It's kind of funny when people ask me to post evidence of my "claims". This is very simple science and you can do your own experiments at home with results measured on a phone spectrum analyzer application. Asking me to do the work for you is, well...lazy. Do the work! ;)
Thank you for this video! My Harrelson 905 is in a local shop now getting the gold plating patched. The tech wants to know if I want to have it lacquered to protect the plating. I absolutely love the way my horn plays and sounds. From what I'm hearing, having the horn lacquered would be ok.
I think it is common sense that plating does not change the tone of a horn. Plating is all about looks.
I wish it were "common" sense :)
I actually believed this myth too. I thought the gold plating was thicker than the silver which cause for a darker sound and for silver horns, it was brighter.
Hi. What about nickel plating? Many people say that the nickel plated finish produces a more velvety sound. Could you help me with this question? Thanks
Nickel plating is very hard and adds to the upper overtones increasing brightness very slightly.
The thicker it is, the more dead and direct sounding it is (or darker), The thinner the metal, the more it rings and pierces and sounds brassy or bright. On trumpets it doesn't show too much, but on a horn, the length of the tubing amplifies the effect of the lacquer or plating much more than the 4 foot or so trumpet.
There is a persistent myth that thicker metal "deadens" sound, but this is completely untrue. I have proven it hundreds of times. There are some instruments that are built with thick metal that do indeed sound dead, but the cause is not the thicker metal in the general terms you have stated. Many people believe that amplitude or "loudness" is directly related to metal thickness as well, which it actually it, but in the opposite way as another myth. The thicker the metal, the more amplitude is possible. Thinner metal will be overcome by the anti-nodal vibrations reducing the maximum amplitude to a much smaller value.
Harrelson Trumpets So would you say the material that thickens the horn would most have the effect, whether lacquer or raw brass? the length of the horn does amplify the effect right? The difference between a lacquered trumpet and raw trumpet wouldn't be too noticeable, but a lacquered horn would be much more noticeable to it's raw brass counterpart, correct? I actually have a lacquered horn that's quite worn and I want to get the lacquer stripped, and I was wondering what difference that may make, aside from looking much, much better.
Re-lacquering a trumpet with thick lacquer is really the only way to improve efficiency of an instrument that has been worn excessively over time. Unless you plan on major modifications. The other option is to simply purchase some Sculpy clay and bake it onto the horn.
There are other ways of improving efficiency, but a horn that is very worn will always have issues on specific partials where the anti-nodes set the thinner metal into vibration.
What analysis criteria did you use in college to determine this? I question it because of the following.From a physics stand point adding metal (uniform all over plating) will darken and focus the sound. It is just that simple. With 6 very good trumpeters here were the conclusions:Yamaha 6310Z raw brass: Had the best behind the horn feedback and brightness.Yamaha 6310Z lacquer less player feedback sounded less bright and less feedback behind the horn.Yamaha 6310Z silver plated even less behind the horn feedback more focused and darker sound. The horn weighed nearly 2 ounces more than the lacquer and raw brass. Adding a uniform weight to the entire horn (silver plating) is similar to a thicker metal. 100% agreed that the horn sounded darker and projected outward better but behind the horn feedback was reduced.Yamaha 6310Z Gold plated over top of silver plate. 100% agreed that the behind the horn feedback reduced even more. However the sound projected to listener was the most focused and 100% agreed that it was darker sounding which makes perfect sense because adding an extra ounce of weight (the gold plating) on top of the silver plating and once again an addition of weight or more metal added yielded the darkest sound.I saw the same scenario as above with:A lacquered Wild Thing A silver plated Wild Thing A Gold plated Wild Thing (gold plated over silver)From a physics stand point adding metal (uniform all over plating) will darken and focus the sound. It is just that simple.
A scientific study aims to isolate variables to study just one at a time. You are apparently comparing numerous variables within the same set of measurements while claiming the plating and or lacquer are the only variable. You are far from drawing any conclusions. The simplest way to measure energy loss, tone color and feedback variations between coatings is to isolate them entirely. Build a trumpet with a removable bell system, then make 5 IDENTICAL bells. They must all be the exact same taper/flare, thickness throughout every cross-cut, end diameter, bell wire, bead fill, weight and screw mechanism. Now lacquer bell #1, silver plate bell #2, silver + gold plate bell #3, lacquer bell #4 and leave bell #5 raw brass. Using a spectrum analyzer behind the mouthpiece and approximately 3 feet in front of the bell while using an ultrasound directed at the bell from the side, mechanically drive a pitch through the instrument at five different amplitudes ranging up to 120 dB. Repeat on at least 6 pitches (frequencies) throughout the range of the instrument. Now publish your findings and post your results on this page. OR schedule a physics consult with me at Harrelson Trumpets. :)
BTW...there is no plater in the world that adds an ounce of gold plating to a trumpet.
Not true wantmy! Im with the rest of the crowd that adding metal will not dull the sound, since metal vibrates as metal. If there is ANY difference, it is so small as to be not worth mentioning. Most of the response is due to the build of the instrument.
The way I made my cornet darker was by trying different mouthpieces until I found an M3 which went to a Conn marching mellophone ( the french horn/trumpet looking model) and THAT made it really dark. It doesnt have that...Ssssss - hissssing sound.
This answers all my questions. Who knew my trumpet is less efficient cause most of the lacquer is gone? In the past I've heard silver makes it darker but now I know it does nothing.
And if your bell was repaired and straightened out again, is it possible that this makes the bell sound more dull, less vibrant, less noble? I really have that feeling with my King Golden Flair which is now no longer a living thing in my hands. (Of course it still sounds acceptable)
its in your head
Yes, the bell could have been hardened and/or softened which can change the resonance on some or many partials.
The problem I had when I played trumpet decades ago was that some were plated better than others. My Signet lost its plating so easily. It went from beautiful two tone to ugh.
I've always heard that it's impossible to make two identical horns. How close to identical do the horns have to be to make a meaningful comparison?
You've been hearing from people that are lacking education on how brass instruments are made. It is relatively easy to build 2, 10 or even 100 trumpets to be identical, but it does require work! We use techniques and implement inspection processes that guarantee consistency and results. Harrelson trumpets are not designed to be identical as we custom build every trumpet to the player's specifications. However, we do make identical horns once in awhile if there is a reason (two different clients order the same configuration). You're welcome to schedule a shop visit and see for yourself how we achieve this highest accuracy and consistency in the brass instrument industry today. Email us at harrelsontrumpets@gmail.com
Hi! Thanks for the video. I've got a question - if plating does not affects the tone colour characteristics then why there is almost no plated french horns or trombones? It cannot be caused by the extra costs because silver plating on much bigger tubas is very common.
Personally I think it's mostly cultural. Raw horns and silver plated trombones used to be more common, but I think these ideas about silver instruments being bright have contributed to a lack of them presently. Nearly all orchestral trombone and horn players are going for a huge dark sound these days.
Tuba players idolize the Chicago York tubas, which were silver plated. I think they are also more likely to go for instruments that have absolutely gigantic bores and tapers but are otherwise set up to be bright (thin metal and silver plating, for example). I personally think that combo can produce a very versatile instrument, and even a pro is going to have trouble putting enough pressure and air into a .748 bore, 20in bell, 6/4 taper contrabass to cause it to break up! Heck some Kaiser tubas are .846 bore! A bit of silver isn't going to do diddly squat for the sound on something like that!
i had noticed the silver nickel trumpets had a mellower tone to them, at least my bach did compared to my stabdard gold brass trumpet, but then again the bach is the high end pro horn and the conn i had was a intermediate level horn
I've never seen a Bach plated in nickel. Are you sure it wasn't silver over brass?
well from what i could tell its nickel because its gota few small sraches and dings and you dont see brass under it, so, ill have to double check but this horn is the Stradivarius Bach it is the professional horn that was bough in mid 70s if i rember right
I have a question about lacquer.. I'm restoring a '65 Old's Super and I'm curious what the differences in sound and durability between a Nitrocellulose lacquer and an epoxy lacquer would be? (And if there are any specific brands of each type of lacquer that you would recommend).
Thanks!
-Steve R.
In general, I do not recommend lacquer due to the temporary nature of this surface treatment. All lacquers will crack, peel, scratch and eventually deteriorate the finish. Epoxy lacquers are the strongest and most durable, but the most difficult to strip for refinishing in the event of a repair. The BEST solution is a raw brass coated with a nano-particle protective spray (often found in sporting goods stores).
I'm not disputing him, but with guitars, finish matters. Both electric and acoustic. You will get different tonalities based on whether you use nitro (Martins and vintage Gibson and Fenders), conversion varnish (Rickenbackers), poly/urethane/etc (lots of Strats etc), etc. etc. etc. Different.
the finish does make a huge difference on acoustic instruments made from wood where the resonating surface is usually reinforced by the lacquer, epoxy, etc.
What about the saxophones? Is it the same? Thank you!
Jason, I wish you would have played each of those horns with the same mouthpiece, so we could HEAR your point.
+C. Bart The trumpets in this video are NOT all the same. Playing them would not have offered any value to this video.
But if you add silver or a gold layer, you add mass to a trumpet, so that should change the sound?
Mass is less of a factor than material characteristics. Regardless, the mass added by plating is only 1-2 grams, not enough to change the resonance.
@@harrelsontrumpets thanks for explaining. Is the amount of silver on a trumpet in total only 1-2 grams,? I thought it would be more...good to know.
@@harrelsontrumpets But then again, if I hear Greg Spence play a lacquer version and a silver version of the same horn, I hear a great difference (around 4:17): ua-cam.com/video/qAdFrlfUa8o/v-deo.html
So what you’re saying is, it’s more about the size and shape of the horn itself, not the metal materials it’s made of. Makes ya wonder why they continue to create different platings to begin with.
Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying as this is how the physical world works. Various finishes are offered to be pleasing aesthetically.
What if you use spray polyurethane rather than lacquer? It is much more durable.
Interesting. how do you test which brightness vrs darkness with by looking at the EQ spikes on an EQ graph? bc im assuming there are objectively brighter and darker horns almost all people can distinguish by ear, but saying this horn is darker than a different dark horn this one seems somewhat subjective to say via hearing tests.
We use an ultrasound and a spectrometer :)
so, there's no point to a gold plated trumpet instead of a sliver plated?
Thank you!💫
What if you have a fully silver trumpet. Yes, it might be a bit heavy but… 🤷♂️
The results would depend on the alloy of silver, thickness of the tubing and bell, and the hardness of the bell.
Dear all,
I have a lacquered brass trumpet. Its lacquer started to strip off and raw brass becoming visible under it. Especially around the valve casings. Does it damage my instrument? or it is only for cosmetic concerns? and is there anything I can do about it? i need some maintenance tips
Ik this is late, but it's only a cosmetic concern. Re lacquering yourself is not a good idea, so if you want to re lacquer, getting it professionally done can be around 200$ from my experience
Great Facts!📯🎶
thanks
The only way it would change the sound is if it were made of the metal that it would be plated onto it. As in if a trumpet were made out of solid silver instead of silver plated brass.
Bingo!
I can tell the difference between a silver trumpet and a brass trumpet's sound. I can hear the difference in a song. If someone played the two of them without me being able to see them, I could tell the difference.
You are changing the physics of the instrument. Silver vibrates differently than brass. Maybe if you took someone who has been only playing the silver trumpet for months and put them beside someone who has only been playing the brass trumpet for months. It's easy to be more in control of the brass vs silver sound when you play both of them regularly and transfer between the two of them, then the sounds would become more identical. I doubt the experiment went too far...
Digtzy Dog I guarantee you cannot tell the difference. Visit my Denver shop and see for yourself.
Then why can I tell the difference? I have a silver and I have a brass, and I have a silver pocket. IF I play the silver and switch immediately to the brass there's no difference. If I play the silver for a couple months and settle into playing it, same with brass... The sound becomes distinct. Maybe it's a psychosomatic effect? The silver vs brass effect on the player may have something to do with their embouchure and their level of confidence with their sound and their playing. Not sure... but I can tell the difference between the sound for whatever reason. The silver always sounds lighter and smoother, and the brass sounds more chipper and bright toned. Of course all of this is my opinion, but I think a little more research should be put into it than just relative to physics.
@@digtzydogmemechannel5670 because your a beg
@@digtzydogmemechannel5670 I guess the challenge from hammelson is clear--have a shop visit then prove it to him. Let his company sponsor your trip there. Haha
@@reynarbarte7743 Why would we pay for a test we know will fail? We have 27 years of experience testing trumpets and trumpet players in the lab. :)
the plating absolutely affects the tone of the instrument, silver plating brings out the high overtones- creating a “brighter” sound
this is physically proven to be untrue. I'm happy to demonstrate on the Muse trumpet in our showroom.
Harrelson Trumpets the sonic affect of the plating becomes more amplified as the size of the instrument increases- it is the most noticeable on tuba
Does the same apply for saxophones?
yes!
Ugh...I don't like the tone (no pun intended) of some of these comments. I do appreciate the passion though. I transformed my trombone by gold plating the bell. Feels heavy and dark. For large ensembles, I'm not a fan. I was going to have the plating removed and return to lacquer, but I think I'd be better off with a different bell. Does anyone know a trombone tech in the Minneapolis area that shares the same philosophies as HarrelsonTrumpets? I wonder if something can be done with my current setup to thin out the sound a bit.
Changing or over-buffing the bell are both options to reduce efficiency, increase resonance and EVI. Keep in mind that over-buffing the bell will almost always result in less consistent notes withing the chromatic scale. You may want to talk to Jason Jimos, he's in the Twin Cities and could change the bell for you.
In my poor opinion it is the metal on the inside of the trumpet that changes its sound. The hardness of that plating would have an effect but the interior of the tubes is not plated.
love this guy! It is like the myth that Gibson les Paul has more sustain than a fender etc. It is not true, it was tested. Harrelson : @
:)
Confirmation bias is a big thing under musicians. We had conspiracy theories even before we had the term.
What about plastic trumpets
they project very poorly and lack any resonance
Or trade it in for a new one good answer .
;)
This is a great example of both self-delusion, and of the fact that the three most difficult words to pronounce in the English language are I ... was ... wrong. It reminds me of the double-tongueing myth: teachers tell students to use 'd' rather than 't' when tongueing a note, in spite of the fact that a 'd' is just a 't' tongue movement plus a pre-release vocalization. Anyone who's taken a speech science/phonics class could tell you that, but I've had trumpeters curse me out for pointing out their error.
I want that shirt.....
They are available on our website www.harrelsontrumpets.com
I just ran this by a true scientist friend of mine. He was very clear he's not sure what equipment you were using in the attempt to measure what properties. He said it's impossible according to the laws of science, for three non identical (objects) trumpet surfaces, raw brass, silver plated and gold plated, with three different Atomic weights and properties to produce the identical (outcome) sound. Stated another way three things that aren't the same can't sound the same. He actually laughed when I brought up the discussion.
Oh my! Your "scientist friend" is welcome to visit my Denver shop and see for himself how and why this is true. You did state that, "he was very clear he's not sure what equipment you were using in the attempt to measure what properties" so I can fill him in right here in my shop. :)
@@harrelsontrumpets I like how you answered all your arguments, backed by all your experience and research. Cmon, challenge them by letting them visit your shop, sponsored by your company in the event that they can prove you wrong. Goodlyck to all of them. Hahaha
I actually believed this myth. So basically it was an illusion then to players.
Yes :)
you have a silver plated trumpet - try a completley silver trumpet
he’s talking about the material of the plating in this video not the material of the trumpet
If this is true, I must have an insane ear, since I can blindly identify raw brass silver plated and lacquered trumpet 90% of the time... so... it isn't. Because I don't have insane ear... period... thickness = dull
Density=brightness, you can't have control over the brass plate before it is hammered, you are not in the forge and you can't have control over metal density or over the speed of cooling from glowing metal state... material density is everything in sound. Everything else is pointless.
I challenge you to visit my shop and prove this in person. I have tested thousands of people and they have all been fooled consistently. Even the spectrum analyzer cannot discern between silver, gold and brass 95% of the time.
There is no analyzer can compete human ear, id like to accept the challenge but I'm not in your same country and can't travel to you, ps I have perfect pitch ear btw, i just can identify up to 37 simultaneously note in orchestra, I always doing it for fun it in theater with my colleagues, for me it's normal, but people keep watching me as an alien,
Oh boy, here we go again! Another expert that is conveniently unable to dispute science in person. This is exactly why so many musicians distrust science, because the snake oil gets on everything.
Well just saying my point view, science is real, analyzer is real metal is real, what little spikes, little sharpness, little flatness little imperfections, do to our nervous systems can't be explained with science, and can't be registered with science, I get different emotions with different trumpets and yes I get different emotions with different finish, I don't have to prove to anyone I enjoy my music and my instruments which I can identify, and I'm sure I'd enjoy one of your thousands trumpet out there if I could try them... science is the maximum truth, but if u believe in science you must accept every analyzer is way less powerful than brain, brain reacts to stimuli in different way, more or less convenient, but different, brain can ear things cpu can't, sorry to inform you that computers are less advanced than neurons
When did this become a conversation about the power of a brain versus a spectrum analyzer? Being objective is the role of the analyzer and being subjective is the role of the human brain. They each have their purpose and I use each as intended. I stand by my original statement and expound, "Humans (and their emotions) cannot distinguish between various trumpet finishes to include; raw brass, silver plate and gold plate". This can be proven by building one trumpet with three identical interchangeable bells that exhibit these three finish variations. I HAVE done this and the results are fascinating. Trumpet players and listeners hear no difference and blindly guess again and again with no consistent results or accuracy. I'm sure you have a great ear and that you believe there should be recognition for your abilities, but arguing science may not be the best route for you. :)
If you actually believe 4 non-identical instruments with 4 different materials that have 4 different weights and atomic principles actually sound identical there's no point in furthering this discussion. Enjoy your scientific measurement equipment.
If you would like to have a real conversation about the science behind the sound, then visit my shop in Denver. I'm not sure why you're stating the instruments are of different weights and non-identical. In my experiments, I used the EXACT SAME instrument in all plating and lacquer variations. This was done to ensure the weight and composition did not change throughout the experiment. If you would like to reproduce my results, I'm happy to walk you through the apparatus and process in person. :)
@@harrelsontrumpets well said
Where’s the science though, my child?
Where's my Father? ;)
Wrong. Please take the exact same make and model of trumpet one raw brass, one lacquer, one silver, one gold with the same trumpet player with the same mouthpiece. Let us hear all four and then we will decide if they sound different. Whatever you measured in your laboratory has no reality to the human ear. I have played the exact same model Benge Claude Gordon in a lacquer and in a silver and they sound different they play different.
I believe you have experienced exactly what you say, BUT I guarantee those horns were NOT exactly the same. Physics is not something that can be tested with the human ear and trust. You must confirm every aspect of each horn is exactly the same. The simplest way to do this is by testing the horn in brass, then plate the same horn silver and test, then plate the same horn in gold and test, then apply lacquer and test. That would give you the most accurate results. I have done this and hundreds of other experiments with conclusive results. This can also be done by using a modular bell trumpet while changing only the bell plating, etc.
Harrelson Trumpets
"The map is not the territory"
The machines you use to measure anything are created by man looking for something. Consider for a moment that the human ear is capable of hearing something man has not yet figured out how to measure and quantify in a laboratory. Is that conceivable to you?
How long did it take once they figured out photography to learn how to photograph the human aura?
Indian Mystic spoke of it for 5000 years before modern technology was able to photograph it.
My mother was able to see people's Aura and watch the color change as their emotions changed. People thought she was crazy until they learned of Karelian photography. Then she wasn't crazy anymore she was exceptional.
The degree of human sensitivity and awareness is beyond the measurement from simple man-made machine.
Perhaps expand your sense of awareness and possibility.
Just some thoughts.
Your argument is irrelevant to the matter at hand. It is scientifically possible to discern differences that even the human ear cannot detect in the sound generated by musical instruments. Comparing two very different instruments that also have different finishes, as in your example, proves nothing. Such results are thrown out in scientific studies as are too many unknown variables to an "experiment" that has no defined parameters.
Harrelson Trumpets
You're young. Science has new discoveries which prove old science and theories obsolete. Have you heard of the fourth dimension?
I'll say this again, just because your science cannot measure it today does not negate its existence.
Harrelson Trumpets
Let's quantify something else if possible. Have you measured the sound difference between a regular Schilke mouthpiece and a Schilke heavyweight mouthpiece?
They play different and they sound different do they measure different in your laboratory with your science?
if you can, please do the experiment and post the results.
Instruments are not jewelry; They should not be gold or silver plated.
that's one opinion ;)