I appreciate the expansive discussion that has followed the posting of this video. The range of opinions and perception is wonderful and fascinating. Keep 'em coming!
I liked the sound of the gen 1 better, not as bright as the gen ll. Basically the gen 1 has a fatter more round tone. Intonation is great on both horns. I owned a 610z and a 810z gen ll I preferred the 810z gen ll. Eventually I went back to my Burbank Benge 3x even though the Gen ll has better intonation and is easier to play there is a sound in deep inside the Benge that I just can’t part with. Thanks for making this great comparison video. Your playing is beautiful!!!
Being a Trumpet player Musician for over 55 years and there is no replacement for facetime with the horn and mouthpice and that means hours rather than minutes. Making an informed decision on a Trumpet and/or mouthpiece can't be rushed and I appreciate the insight you give to the task
The real crux is for those younger players and their paren'ts. Trying to convey the importance of the time they take to make an informed choice without getting lost in that shopping spree frenzy of "Ohhhhhh so pretty and shiny to make the informed choice @@chasesanborn
I still think the 8310Z, either gen, is a highly overlooked horn and is an absolute steal for the money. I love that trumpet. When all the instruments like Bach, Adams and others go over 4K in price, this is an amazing trumpet. And the fact that it’s a Vindabona style instrument, which most people actually gravitate towards without even knowing, is just a cherry on top. I’m now on a different level of an instrument, but still have the gen2 8310Z in Laquer and never getting rid of it, even though it doesn’t get as much play anymore. It’s still a lovely, lovely trumpet and a must buy today for any player really. By the way, a lot of people call it a jazz trumpet, but it’s far from it, especially when taking into account the Vindabona construction.
There are Yamaha trumpets which are priced substantially higher, notably the 9000 series. Having owned nearly all of the pro horns, I'd say it's more a matter of preference than quality. If one takes to a lower-priced instrument, bonus. If you prefer a higher-priced instrument, trumpet players still spend less on their instruments than most other musicians, especially when you consider the longevity and minimal maintenance costs. Thanks for your thoughts!
@@chasesanborn oh trumpets are in general out of control in terms of pricing. I’ve seen Bach 190S37 reaching over 5K, which to me is absolutely insane. Currently I am with a different brand and style of trumpet altogether. But yes, I’ve seen and actually tried some of the artist models from Yamaha, specifically the Vizzutti model, and the Rotary trumpet. Rotary was incredible, but out of my price range.
As tools of the trade go, a trumpet is a relatively small investment considering that the majority of professionals make their living on an instrument costing $2500-5000. Even if the trumpet is not a money-maker, it's still one of the cheapest instruments to own and operate. :)
@@chasesanborn oh absolutely. I had a chance to work with an Italian violin artist, Giuliano Carmignola, who played on a 1732 Stradivarius Baillot loaned to him by the Italian government basically. That violin was priceless. And still is, but he said before he got that, he spent upwards of 5K on strings alone. Not even counting the violin itself which some good examples cost 20-30 or even 50K USD. All I’m saying is that even with prices like that, the 8310Z is a stunning horn to play on and to get for under 3K in today’s market. Thank you for your replies and the video. Enjoyed both very much.
I actually picked up a first gen as my student horn to replace the rental I was using and it really was a steal and helped accelerating the learning process. I find it works well with the way I want to play based on my background as a flute player for 30 years. I feel I can be more efficient airwise. I got a good price on it at ACB because it had had some more extensive dent work on the bell which made it less cosmetically desireable though honestly I can't see it.
And i have felt guilty for having 6 tenor saxes. Thank you for alleviating that feeling Chase! My last acquirement is silver plated but with clear acrylic lacquer. My solid silver horns are also lacquered, so it is easy to keep the BLING affect.
Makes sense to keep tarnish at bay. Polishing a sax has got to be a bear compared to a trumpet. And that's been a response when I tell people to leave their horns out on stands if they want to get more practice in. I've never bought a ticket to see shiny horns, but I've heard magic out of "ugly" ones. #casesareforcarrying
This was fantastic. Seeing a top pro work through his process is always great. Thanks! Disclaimer: Bach, Yamaha and Stomvi player here (the expensive range, I've got more money than talent). Always silver, because I destroy laquer in months. It sounded like the silver required you to do a bit more effort. Mostly on the upper register. But when you hit it, it sounded fuller. Paradoxically, this made the laquer sound more aggresive most of the time and the silver more mellow. Maybe because you yourself were adapting to compensate? Slurs seemed slightly dirtier in the silver one. But the sound once the note settled was clearer in the silver one. Attacks on the laquer were more aggressive, but took longer to settle. The music sounded better in the silver. The tone was more apt to the music. I'd go silver in this one.
Your comments are insightful and generally in line with my own, particularly in the way I hear the tone of the Gen 1 (lacquer) as somewhat more aggressive.
I’ve own both, in the exact same finishes as yours. I played the Gen 1 for 8 years, the Gen 2 for 1 year. For me the Gen 2 has slightly more core and slots a lot more accurately, especially in the upper register. On your video, the Gen 2 sounds brighter and I experinced that too, but wondered if it was the silver. Feedback is better on the new one with the French bead. Seems you found similar experinces. The beauty of all Z horns is the ability to sound smooth and jazzy down low and zing up high. Great Big Band horn. Super versatile.
Some in the comments hear the Gen 1 as brighter, which is the subjective nature of listening. Overall, I agree with your comments. Thanks for joining the conversation!
Correct. A study (with physics) showed that an unfinished brass horn and one with silver or gold plating all sound essentially the same. The lacquer directly on the brass, which is 30X thicker, emits different sound waves.
Closed my eyes for the first couple of exercises then realized I could hear enough of a difference that I didn't need to... Def prefer the second horn and it sounded like the upper end of your working range spoke much clearer... 🙂
So far, almost everyone who has commented can hear a difference (which is a little surprising to me, but perhaps if you don't hear a difference you are less likely to comment), and the opinions are about evenly split. Thanks for sharing yours!
Gen 1to me has more projected wider, bolder ,brighter sound Type 2 tighter more contained less brilliance; better slotting as you mentioned Two totally different flavors This speaks to me as efficiency ; more output based on same input. 1 sounds like more of a lead than 2 which to me would be orchestral. To me each has its own virtues by this comparison
Although preferences vary in the comments, there is a general consensus that the Gen 1 comes across in this demonstration has having a brighter, more aggressive tone. Whether by virtue of the fact that it was a second take (I did one full take with each horn) or because the horn has some influence, my approach on the blowing was more subdued on the Gen 2.
I heard better intonation in the upper register on the Gen II. Seemed like the horn opened up a bit more in the upper register. And I did hear more evenness in the middle/low register. Just seemed like the horn helped you play more confidently and with greater ease.
My opinion only, but the octave slurs spoke more quickly and accurately on the Gen2. The range exercise also gets the Gen2 nod of approval. The notes were more secure; the high F# was more clear, again spoke sooner and had more overtones than the Gen1. Great choice! I still have my 25th Anniversary model, but use it mainly for classical playing. (My wife will not thank you because I now have to test drive that horn). Thanks for posting!
I hear the gen 1 warmer and less compact, more spread in the sound. This is how i feel about the gen 1 aswell when i've played it. Very shiny but still warm and wide, i like the sound!
What a great comparison! I agree with everything you said on how a good player can really make their horn sound different and play as they want or need it to, and that it really comes down to player preference on the sound(s) and feelings desired. There is a "curiosity" for me to want to try the various models in the 8000 series Xeno horns. I currently have an 8335IIS and it's amazing. I also have a 4335IIGS and have tried an 8335IIGS and I personally love the sound from the gold brass bell, a bit more. I'm itching to try the 8310Z and also the 8345G, and RGS models. There are so many to chose from. Great video!
One commenter said (I think jokingly) that clearly I had yet to find a Yamaha I liked. My response was that I can't find one I don't like. Your case in point.
The best thing about this video is the standards you use for measuring each characteristic of how the horn plays for you. Peter Bond mentioned a time he was on trial and they were going to can him because his tone was too generic. Creating and maintaining a signature sound can launch a career in trumpet.
Good morning Chase! I'm a big fan of your work and this channel, and I'm so glad you posted this video because it sparked a question I have for you. It's probably going to be a little long, so please prepare, and if I don't explain it well enough, just blame my lack of vocabulary. 😆 Question: How do you know that it's the horn that is better, and it's not you reacting to playing a new or different horn? How do you know you are putting in the same amount of effort into the horn, or maybe the horn forces you to use less effort? Basically, how do you know it's you and not the horn? 🤔
The player is always the biggest variable. I can pretty much guarantee if I played the whole thing a second time some opinions would switch, probably even more so if I reversed the order, starting with the Gen 2. Also, these two horns are closer than most horn match ups would be, so the differences attributable to the player are likely of even greater significance. Having switched horns so many times in my life, I know that you pretty quickly forget about the horn and focus on the real instrument--the body. Thanks for your question!
Hi Chase-always love your videos. As a pro trumpet player in Atlanta, I really appreciate your thoughtful, thorough explanations on every topic you cover. I definitely agree with you that the second generation 8310Z had more focus and seemed to slot better for you. Personally, I also found the sound a hair warmer. Of course, you play so well you would sound good on anything.
Also the caps on the bottom of the valve casings are heavier, the screw that keeps the third valve slide from falling out is beefier and has more threads. Along with with what you mentioned.
For better or worse, every horn I've ever played sounded like Chase Sanborn! :) As I said in another comment, if I had played only one horn throughout my career, I expect there would not be much difference in the way things turned out.
I haven't played in many years now, but I bought the 6310z when it first came out and sold it 7 years ago for more than I paid. Gen 2 sounded slightly sharper, and clearer, at high C than gen 1. I think about playing again, and based on this I'd certainly consider the 8310z gen 2. Q: how much of the sound difference might be due to lacquer vs silver?
The finish does add another variable and it would be more apples to apples if they were the same. I tried both lacquer and silver versions of the Gen 2 and while I and others could discern a difference, determining a preference was not so easy. I believe that Bobby Shew has always preferred lacquer. In general terms I'd say the variations attributable to the player (me, anyway) are likely to be greater than those attributable to the finish, so I think in many cases it comes down to aesthetic preference. Thanks for the question!
I bought an 8310z new when tge second version came out. A dealer was selling the original version 40% off because they wanted to stock the new version. I have played it in all kinds of settings including orchestras.
Crazy... preferred the focus of the silver horn until you started blowing. Then the character of the other horn spoke. I've been playing a lacquer 6310z for over 20 years, so I'm probably biased.
The lacquer vs. silver finishes introduce another variation into the equation, but I'd expect opinions to be split regardless. I'm sort of the opposite--I prefer what I hear as a more 'diffuse' character in the Gen 2 on the blowing.
Yep I get your points view. All models have almost imperceptible tiny details that make un huge impact on them. Love the old 6335H and his GenII (6335H II), like the 9335 Vizzutti’s model, they’ve increased different weights, shapes and materials. Completely agree with you, some Artist models complete, complement the Player, that’s why they will work for some and not for others in some perspective. About the Z models, they’re almost a different cats that I can’t named no more a Z Shew’s Model. Gen 1 are the most balanced, Gen 2 in the middle, Gen 3 the most efficient. They increased weight, new Bell and Valve Block (perhaps the New Xeno model like Chicago that make it slightly better. At least more overall balanced. Can’t say if they have a new Leadpipe, but you know how it is. Most of us, should understand that each airflow emission and mouthpiece will make a huge impact on all this differences that we feel. Who plays softer/louder, bigger/small mouthpieces with smaller/larger Drills will have it all. Personally never liked of Step Bore models, the Shew trumpet Z models, however love his Flugel Gen 1 model.
That's why there are different models that suit different players. That said, if you picked any one of the trumpets I've owned over the course of my career, and that was the only trumpet I ever owned, I think the effect on my playing would be minimal if at all. We learn to work with whatever we've got. A former student spent time in Africa working with a local community that had one trumpet shared between them. To his astonishment, he discovered that two of the valves were identical, i.e., the trumpet had a first valve in a second valve casing. Somehow or other, they had learned to work around a dysfunctional instrument. He gave them the plastic trumpet he brought with them and was trying to organize the donation of more.
I'm not a Yamaha player (1975 golden Schilke B7Lb for a long time), but the two horns I remember best also turn out to be quite rare. I was very charmed by the Vax model (6335MV) and the Till Bronner model (6330B). Both models only have been in production for a short period, and I never understood why. I would choose the MV over the RC any time.
@@chasesanborn Yes the 6330B was a Yamaha Germany product. I had the chance to try it once, it was a very easy and even playing horn with a very buttery sound, I loved it.
Thanks for the comparison and insights! As far as the technical comparisons I could take or leave either, but in the later, more musical demos, I did prefer the greater warmth and consistency of tone of the gen 1. The gen 1 has been my workhorse since 2016, which may not sound like a long time, but I only started playing in 2012 or so. Going even slightly further back on the family tree than the 6310Z, I recently acquired a nice 732 (based on a Schilke B7) from Rich Ita’s shop, and have noticed a similar effect. It seems that as Yamaha modernizes their existing horns, the sound tends to become more present and slightly more responsive. But, on the other hand, I have been doing almost all of my playing on the 732 these past weeks, and truly love its sound, even compared to the 8310Z. I got it as a backup but it will likely end up being my “classical” horn, whereas the 8310Z will end up as my big band, combo, and pep horn while I’m in school.
The sound is a combination of the instrument and the player. Finding a horn that complements your natural sound is a good goal. For me, the mouthpiece has a greater effect on tone than the horn.
Thank you for your highly interesting efforts - for me it means a lot. As I am hearing from Bose Table Speakers the 1 st Generation sounds with more attack and boldness the 2 nd Gen sounds much softer....this no bad thing but for me zthe Gen 1 responds more intensively.
Thanks for the comment--it's an intriguing cross section of opinions. I think perhaps there is more subtlety in the Gen 2, which might be heard as a positive or negative or neither for a given person or musical situation.
Love this and looking for a personal take to my grave horn. I have a Yamaha YCR-8335G Neo Cornet, which i play in a Brass Band. Fantastic instrument even if the intonation can be a little off playing on the bach 1 1/2 c mouth piece. That's largely a me problem though. I like the instrument so much im looking for a great all rounder trumpet too.
Fortunately trumpets are not so expensive that most of us have to be wedded to one for life, however if I had played one trumpet only for my entire career--assuming it was a good one to start and kept in good repair--I don't imagine it would have made any difference in the player I turned out to be. I feel somewhat differently about mouthpieces. I've been through a number of them as well, although thanks to GR there have been no changes to that gear in the last 25 years.
Subtle, but to me the most obvious difference is the Gen 2 sound seems a bit more compact and focused, which I would probably prefer for the gigs (commercial/lead, always mic’ed) that I do.
I can hear the difference and I have always been partial to that warmer, more mellow sound of the brass trumpet. Perhaps the best illustration in my mind is the compare and contrast between two world class trumpet players. Philip Smith formerly of the NY Philharmonic who played a beautiful and lyric silver trumpet. And, the late Armando Ghitalla, formerly of the Boston Symphony, played that rich, mellow brass trumpet. Both were elite to say the least. But when you are playing the blues or a ballad, I want that rich mellow sound. And when you are screaming at quadruple F#, I expect that trumpet to be silver. And just to reinforce my point, Lyn Biviano that famous scream trumpet cat can be seen playing a silver horn.
Almost all trumpets are made of brass, of course, but I assume you are referring to the finish rather than the composition of the metal. For that matter, there are different alloys that fall under the general description of brass, relating mostly to the copper content as it applies to brass instruments, e.g., gold or red brass. If I were strictly comparing the two generations, it would have made sense to have both with the same finish to eliminate one variable. Even the visible difference probably has an impact on a viewer's perception. If I didn't already own the lacquer Gen 1, I might just as well have picked the lacquer Gen 2, since I didn't really have a strong feeling one way or the other. I believe Bobby Shew prefers the lacquer version of the horn designed for him. If I can get my hands on the lacquer Gen 2, perhaps I'll try to repeat the experiment. Whatever one's perception, generalities quickly come up against contradictions. You'll note that others in these comments hear the silver Gen 2 as more mellow in this demonstration (whether that's the horn or the way I interact with the horn is another matter of debate), and there exists no shortage of high notes emanating from lacquered horns. Bobby Shew's been known to belt out a few! Thanks for your comment!
Love the solo! I hear some KD-isms. One thing I noticed is how different the tuning slides are positioned. The 1st Gen is quite a ways out, whereas with the newer horn, it looks all the way pushed in. What would be the explanation for the marked difference?
I'll happily if humbly accept any comparisons to Kenny Dorham! The tuning slides are in the same position, but on the Gen 2 the first inch or so of the inner slide is silver plated so you only see a sliver of the raw brass that is the rest of the slide. I assume that's done for aesthetic reasons since the raw brass stands out more against the silver than the lacquer.
What was different about the 6310z compared to either the first or second generation 8310z? I'm on the market for a pro horn (Yamaha preferably) and I would like to know what the differences were between the 6 and 8.
The 8310Z was a fairly substantial redesign that retained the step-bore design of the 6310Z but broadened the sound and made it an easier transition from other horns, so the 8310Z appeals to a wider cross-section of players. While opinions vary in these comments on the comparison between the two generations of the 8310Z, we've yet to hear (and I've yet to meet) anyone who prefers the 6310Z, although I'm sure someone is out there with that mindset. If you are shopping for a new horn you are only likely to encounter the 8310Z. Here's a follow-up video: ua-cam.com/video/sYgfMC574dk/v-deo.html
Any thoughts on the bore size and resistance compared to, say, a Schilke B3 (with a Bach 1-1/4 or Schilke 19 mpc? Saw a quote from Maynard, years ago, in Instrumentalist magazine, to the effect of "play the largest equipment you can handle." I've always marveled that Bobby Shew plays so well on smaller, if not the smallest, instruments. I think I'd have to re-train for months to make it work.
As I've never owned a B3, I don't have any basis for comparison. Perhaps someone else in the comments might. I would not expect a 'human bellows' like Maynard to match well with the small bore of the 8310Z--that's not what it's designed for. That said, I have no problem going from a typical medium large bore to the 8310Z; it's not a radically different feel from my standpoint.
@@chasesanborn I’m a busy amateur. I use it for community band, jazz band and symphony! (I don’t tell those symphony guys what I’ve got!😉) My eyes literally got big when I first tried it 😳 after playing many candidates! This is sure worth trying!!! (PS After I’d played it for what I thought was a few minutes the rep came by and said it was a half hour and he was considering a rental fee!🤣
Hi. Thanks for this well done comparison. I would appreciate a comparison of the 8335 with the 8310z. What is the weight difference-was that a factor in your switch? How about the tone differences and responsiveness? Thank you for all your videos.
I no longer have the 8335 so I can't do a comparison video, although having done this one I wish I had. The 8335 is a really well balanced horn that covers all the bases equally well. It's been more than a year since I gravitated towards the 8310Z; I'd say the primary things that appeal to me about it are the light weight and responsiveness. As I said in the video, I could happily go back to any of the Yamaha horns I've ever owned. When they are played head to head the differences may be apparent, but once it's just you and the horn the individual qualities of the instrument recede relative to the role of the body, i.e., I sound like me on any horn, for better or worse. :)
I saw your past video about your collection of GR mouthpieces with different cups. Which mouthpiece did you use when comparing these horns? Or did you use all of them?
Good question. I don't actually remember, but I would not have changed mouthpieces since that would introduce another variable. It was either the CS66M or the CS66MS, as I use those two the most.
It's interesting to note the various adjectives that people use to describe the sound as they hear it. Also the degree to which opinion is split on which they prefer. Thanks for weighing in!
To me the sound of the Gen 2 horn is slightly more defined, punchier and a little brighter. The Gen 1 sounds more mellow. It could be my imagination providing confirmation bias however as I always expect silver horns to be brighter. I'm still playing a 6310Z though I am thinking of trying the newer model.
It's a constant question of 'do I hear that or do I think I hear that?'. I would say I'm more likely than not to agree with your description. I think you'll find a bigger difference moving from the 6310 than between the two generations of the 8310. I'm sure there are people who prefer the 6310 to the 8310, but I expect they would be in the small minority. I don't think anyone has voiced that opinion that in the comments.
Well, if you were playing lead you’d definitely want the Gen II. And I don’t think you’d lose anything with it if you were doing Chet Baker-style playing. I’m a Yamaha “artist” (hehe) myself and my low end horn is by far the best trumpet I’ve ever owned.
Some in the comments hear the Gen 1 as brighter (and therefore potentially more of a lead horn). Some hear the opposite. My own impression is that the Gen 2 has a wider range of tonal color, and stands out particularly in the jazz context.
Awesome video and playing, thank you so much. Would it be insane overkill to buy a ZII as my first trumpet? Been playing sax, bass, guitar and piano since the early/mid 70's and always wanted to explore trumpet. I'm the type of person who likes to have nice gear so that if the results are less than stellar, then I know that I alone am to blame. LOL
Trumpet is one of the cheapest instruments to buy and maintain, and the ZII is priced in the reasonable range of pro horns, so no, not insane, especially for someone who likes nice gear. Thanks for your kind words!
I've owned exactly 2 trumpets, both Strads. Only changed bc the first was a large bore and I gradually found I couldn't play it as long as in the olden days. Found the receipt when I sold it... I had it 42 years. Interestingly, my current horn is also silver (sterling bell); the old one was lacquered brass. :-) I also dropped my mp from 1.5C to 3C at the same time. I assume you retained the same mp. My first horn was new. My current horn is 3rd hand. I listened with headphones, and yes there is a difference. But I can't say one sounds "better" or more mellow or brighter; they are just different. And to my ear, both changed as you went further in the video. I guess I would sort of expect that... Curious if you can actually "feel" the difference? Any chance you could do a double-blind? Might there be something phycological going on? Playing music is an art, after all. Long before I felt the need to downgrade my bore, Bach brought a bunch of horns to my local store. I tried 6 or 8 strads; some were the same model. And they were all subtly different, even the same ones! So yes, I believe you can tell the difference between generations. Would be really interesting if you tried several gen 2s that are supposedly "identical"? Playing trumpet has always been an avocation for me. I generally enjoy all your music videos and rarely come away without learning something. I learned a lot with this one. Thank you.
If the audience was 'blind' and I played the same thing twice on the same horn, telling them I had switched, people would hear a difference. That is both a psychological and a physical phenomena, in that it is impossible for me to play something exactly the same. The effect is not lost on the performer--there is a vested interest in wanting the newest horn to sound the best. If I were playing the horns without knowing which is which, I THINK I could tell the difference, however I'm sure I would not be 100% correct. Of course, we are comparing two very similar horns, making the distinction quite subtle. It would be even more so if I was playing two supposedly identical horns. (No two horns will ever truly be identical, although Yamaha is a class-leader when it comes to consistency.) When I was comparing the Gen 2 in lacquer and silver, much like your comment I could hear a difference but had no clear preference. As I listen to the demo, I'm aware of the difference in the way I played something. For example, on the blowing, I recorded one full take on each horn and then switched between them in the edit to avoid trying to quickly put one horn down and pick up another. My approach on the second take (the silver Gen 2) is more subdued both in style and volume. I had to try to balance the volume in the edit because hearing one horn played louder will influence the perception of tone quality. I believe the horn has some influence in the way I played, but I think the greater factor is the difference between a first take and a second take. It would be an interesting experiment to play the entire demonstration again, reversing the order in which I played the horns, starting with the Gen 2 each time. There is another factor when comparing a new horn to one you've been playing--familiarity. I've done multiple-horn comparisons in front of a live audience; people often prefer my own horn because they can hear that I sound most comfortable on it. That's less a factor in this case, because the horns are so similar and I had been playing the Gen 2 for a couple of months when I made this video.
This may have been covered somewhere else, but I found it interesting that your tuning slide was about an inch out as far as I could tell. Are we playing on the sharp end of the slot?? FWTW, and in HMO, given what I perceived from this distance as the core of the Gen II, that would make it the winner in my books. I think I would buy it in lacquer.
My tuning slide is out a little less than an inch on any horn--that's where it needs to be for me. I'm pretty aware of where the slots are and where the best compromise position for my slide is. The slide position varies with the individual, but I've known quite a few students who have the slide too far in and have developed the habit of pushing down on the pitch, sometimes in an attempt to produce a 'jazz' sound. The slide position is the same on both Gen 1 and 2, but it looks deceiving because the first part of the tuning slide is silver plated on the Gen 2.
I've done more experimenting and can hear a clear difference on recordings especially on the jazz side. I might post another comparison. Thanks for sharing your opinion!
That's another indication of which generation is which. There are a few other clues as well, but I think the valve buttons are the easiest to spot. The smooth ones on the Gen 1 stand out.
Google translation: "Gen 2 sounds brighter and seems like it has more resistance." It's interesting how different people hear one or the other horn as brighter.
I appreciate the expansive discussion that has followed the posting of this video. The range of opinions and perception is wonderful and fascinating. Keep 'em coming!
I liked the sound of the gen 1 better, not as bright as the gen ll. Basically the gen 1 has a fatter more round tone. Intonation is great on both horns. I owned a 610z and a 810z gen ll I preferred the 810z gen ll. Eventually I went back to my Burbank Benge 3x even though the Gen ll has better intonation and is easier to play there is a sound in deep inside the Benge that I just can’t part with. Thanks for making this great comparison video. Your playing is beautiful!!!
Thanks for sharing your impressions and personal experience, not to mention your kind words!
That gen II brightness is the silver speaking, I think.
Being a Trumpet player Musician for over 55 years and there is no replacement for facetime with the horn and mouthpice and that means hours rather than minutes. Making an informed decision on a Trumpet and/or mouthpiece can't be rushed and I appreciate the insight you give to the task
If it's a choice between the practice room and the music store, the choice is clear. Thanks for that!
The real crux is for those younger players and their paren'ts. Trying to convey the importance of the time they take to make an informed choice without getting lost in that shopping spree frenzy of "Ohhhhhh so pretty and shiny to make the informed choice @@chasesanborn
I still think the 8310Z, either gen, is a highly overlooked horn and is an absolute steal for the money. I love that trumpet. When all the instruments like Bach, Adams and others go over 4K in price, this is an amazing trumpet. And the fact that it’s a Vindabona style instrument, which most people actually gravitate towards without even knowing, is just a cherry on top. I’m now on a different level of an instrument, but still have the gen2 8310Z in Laquer and never getting rid of it, even though it doesn’t get as much play anymore. It’s still a lovely, lovely trumpet and a must buy today for any player really. By the way, a lot of people call it a jazz trumpet, but it’s far from it, especially when taking into account the Vindabona construction.
There are Yamaha trumpets which are priced substantially higher, notably the 9000 series. Having owned nearly all of the pro horns, I'd say it's more a matter of preference than quality. If one takes to a lower-priced instrument, bonus. If you prefer a higher-priced instrument, trumpet players still spend less on their instruments than most other musicians, especially when you consider the longevity and minimal maintenance costs. Thanks for your thoughts!
@@chasesanborn oh trumpets are in general out of control in terms of pricing. I’ve seen Bach 190S37 reaching over 5K, which to me is absolutely insane. Currently I am with a different brand and style of trumpet altogether. But yes, I’ve seen and actually tried some of the artist models from Yamaha, specifically the Vizzutti model, and the Rotary trumpet. Rotary was incredible, but out of my price range.
As tools of the trade go, a trumpet is a relatively small investment considering that the majority of professionals make their living on an instrument costing $2500-5000. Even if the trumpet is not a money-maker, it's still one of the cheapest instruments to own and operate. :)
@@chasesanborn oh absolutely. I had a chance to work with an Italian violin artist, Giuliano Carmignola, who played on a 1732 Stradivarius Baillot loaned to him by the Italian government basically. That violin was priceless. And still is, but he said before he got that, he spent upwards of 5K on strings alone. Not even counting the violin itself which some good examples cost 20-30 or even 50K USD.
All I’m saying is that even with prices like that, the 8310Z is a stunning horn to play on and to get for under 3K in today’s market. Thank you for your replies and the video. Enjoyed both very much.
I actually picked up a first gen as my student horn to replace the rental I was using and it really was a steal and helped accelerating the learning process. I find it works well with the way I want to play based on my background as a flute player for 30 years. I feel I can be more efficient airwise. I got a good price on it at ACB because it had had some more extensive dent work on the bell which made it less cosmetically desireable though honestly I can't see it.
And i have felt guilty for having 6 tenor saxes. Thank you for alleviating that feeling Chase! My last acquirement is silver plated but with clear acrylic lacquer. My solid silver horns are also lacquered, so it is easy to keep the BLING affect.
Six saxophones = twelve trumpets, at the very least. I've not known lacquer to be applied over silver.
Well one learns something new every day if one is lucky! LOL@@chasesanborn
Makes sense to keep tarnish at bay. Polishing a sax has got to be a bear compared to a trumpet. And that's been a response when I tell people to leave their horns out on stands if they want to get more practice in. I've never bought a ticket to see shiny horns, but I've heard magic out of "ugly" ones. #casesareforcarrying
This was fantastic. Seeing a top pro work through his process is always great. Thanks!
Disclaimer: Bach, Yamaha and Stomvi player here (the expensive range, I've got more money than talent). Always silver, because I destroy laquer in months.
It sounded like the silver required you to do a bit more effort. Mostly on the upper register. But when you hit it, it sounded fuller.
Paradoxically, this made the laquer sound more aggresive most of the time and the silver more mellow. Maybe because you yourself were adapting to compensate?
Slurs seemed slightly dirtier in the silver one. But the sound once the note settled was clearer in the silver one.
Attacks on the laquer were more aggressive, but took longer to settle.
The music sounded better in the silver. The tone was more apt to the music.
I'd go silver in this one.
Your comments are insightful and generally in line with my own, particularly in the way I hear the tone of the Gen 1 (lacquer) as somewhat more aggressive.
I’ve own both, in the exact same finishes as yours. I played the Gen 1 for 8 years, the Gen 2 for 1 year. For me the Gen 2 has slightly more core and slots a lot more accurately, especially in the upper register. On your video, the Gen 2 sounds brighter and I experinced that too, but wondered if it was the silver. Feedback is better on the new one with the French bead. Seems you found similar experinces. The beauty of all Z horns is the ability to sound smooth and jazzy down low and zing up high. Great Big Band horn. Super versatile.
Some in the comments hear the Gen 1 as brighter, which is the subjective nature of listening. Overall, I agree with your comments. Thanks for joining the conversation!
Correct. A study (with physics) showed that an unfinished brass horn and one with silver or gold plating all sound essentially the same. The lacquer directly on the brass, which is 30X thicker, emits different sound waves.
I am in complete accord with your assessment of the horns. And I am a sax player and a nerd!
You are a charter member of the club.
Closed my eyes for the first couple of exercises then realized I could hear enough of a difference that I didn't need to... Def prefer the second horn and it sounded like the upper end of your working range spoke much clearer... 🙂
So far, almost everyone who has commented can hear a difference (which is a little surprising to me, but perhaps if you don't hear a difference you are less likely to comment), and the opinions are about evenly split. Thanks for sharing yours!
Agreed with you on this. As far as aesthetic point of view, I like the rounded valve caps.
@@markellis9646 I'm with you on that. I suspect it is an 'economy of scale' decision.
Excellent video Chase. I just bought the horn and I’m amazed by its great sound and intonation.
Not so amazing for a Yamaha, but glad you like the horn, and thanks for your kind words.
Gen 1to me has more projected wider, bolder ,brighter sound Type 2 tighter more contained less brilliance; better slotting as you mentioned Two totally different flavors This speaks to me as efficiency ; more output based on same input. 1 sounds like more of a lead than 2 which to me would be orchestral. To me each has its own virtues by this comparison
Although preferences vary in the comments, there is a general consensus that the Gen 1 comes across in this demonstration has having a brighter, more aggressive tone. Whether by virtue of the fact that it was a second take (I did one full take with each horn) or because the horn has some influence, my approach on the blowing was more subdued on the Gen 2.
To me it sounds like gen 1 has more of a fatter and laid back tone, and generation 2 feels more higher pitched and brighter.
I heard better intonation in the upper register on the Gen II. Seemed like the horn opened up a bit more in the upper register. And I did hear more evenness in the middle/low register.
Just seemed like the horn helped you play more confidently and with greater ease.
Thanks for weighing in, Michael. The divergence of perspective is fascinating and speaks to how we can drive ourselves crazy!
I had a Gen I a few years ago and sold it. Dumb! Got another Gen I last month and it will stay this time. They are great horns!
I'd be lying if I said I'd never re-bought something I had previously owned. That's been true even with clothing from Goodwill! :)
love both sounds but I prefer the lacquered horn get 1's tone. A bit more wider and round IMO. Thanks for the great videos Chase!!!
So far, early in the comments, the opinions are about evenly split. Thanks for weighing in!
My opinion only, but the octave slurs spoke more quickly and accurately on the Gen2. The range exercise also gets the Gen2 nod of approval. The notes were more secure; the high F# was more clear, again spoke sooner and had more overtones than the Gen1. Great choice! I still have my 25th Anniversary model, but use it mainly for classical playing. (My wife will not thank you because I now have to test drive that horn). Thanks for posting!
Opinions are all any of us have! Thanks for sharing yours, and apologies to your wife...:)
I hear the gen 1 warmer and less compact, more spread in the sound. This is how i feel about the gen 1 aswell when i've played it. Very shiny but still warm and wide, i like the sound!
Another vote for Gen 1. I expected to get a variety of responses, at that is turning out to be true. Thanks for yours!
@@chasesanborn for allround work i would choose the gen 2. But for soloistic purposes the gen 1. Well played by the way you sound great
@@Trollet532 Thank you!
What a great comparison! I agree with everything you said on how a good player can really make their horn sound different and play as they want or need it to, and that it really comes down to player preference on the sound(s) and feelings desired. There is a "curiosity" for me to want to try the various models in the 8000 series Xeno horns. I currently have an 8335IIS and it's amazing. I also have a 4335IIGS and have tried an 8335IIGS and I personally love the sound from the gold brass bell, a bit more. I'm itching to try the 8310Z and also the 8345G, and RGS models. There are so many to chose from. Great video!
One commenter said (I think jokingly) that clearly I had yet to find a Yamaha I liked. My response was that I can't find one I don't like. Your case in point.
This was excellent, thank you! Insightful, helpful.
Glad to hear that, and thanks for saying so!
The best thing about this video is the standards you use for measuring each characteristic of how the horn plays for you. Peter Bond mentioned a time he was on trial and they were going to can him because his tone was too generic. Creating and maintaining a signature sound can launch a career in trumpet.
I've just uploaded a follow up with more improvisation comparison. A 'signature sound' or unique voice is the goal of every musician.
Good morning Chase!
I'm a big fan of your work and this channel, and I'm so glad you posted this video because it sparked a question I have for you. It's probably going to be a little long, so please prepare, and if I don't explain it well enough, just blame my lack of vocabulary. 😆
Question: How do you know that it's the horn that is better, and it's not you reacting to playing a new or different horn? How do you know you are putting in the same amount of effort into the horn, or maybe the horn forces you to use less effort?
Basically, how do you know it's you and not the horn? 🤔
The player is always the biggest variable. I can pretty much guarantee if I played the whole thing a second time some opinions would switch, probably even more so if I reversed the order, starting with the Gen 2. Also, these two horns are closer than most horn match ups would be, so the differences attributable to the player are likely of even greater significance. Having switched horns so many times in my life, I know that you pretty quickly forget about the horn and focus on the real instrument--the body. Thanks for your question!
@@chasesanborn
Thanks for your answer.
BTW, I agree with you about the Gen 2. From here, it even sounds like the targets are larger.
Liked and subscribed! Really enjoyed this video, watched 3 times already. Your playing is very relaxing! Thank you! Gen ll!
I'm glad you enjoyed it!
@@chasesanbornYour video sealed the deal, watched it today and purchased the “ll” a few hours ago, it’s sitting next to me. Thanks a ton!
Surely my commission from Yamaha is in the mail...:)
Hi Chase-always love your videos. As a pro trumpet player in Atlanta, I really appreciate your thoughtful, thorough explanations on every topic you cover. I definitely agree with you that the second generation 8310Z had more focus and seemed to slot better for you. Personally, I also found the sound a hair warmer. Of course, you play so well you would sound good on anything.
Flattery will get you everywhere! Thanks for sharing your impressions and for your kind words!
Also the caps on the bottom of the valve casings are heavier, the screw that keeps the third valve slide from falling out is beefier and has more threads. Along with with what you mentioned.
As you say, there are a number of changes, some visible, some not. The valve buttons are the most obvious.
They both sound like Chase Sanborn! To me the gen 2 seems more focussed and ‘cleaner’. I’m sure I’d be happy with either though.
For better or worse, every horn I've ever played sounded like Chase Sanborn! :) As I said in another comment, if I had played only one horn throughout my career, I expect there would not be much difference in the way things turned out.
I haven't played in many years now, but I bought the 6310z when it first came out and sold it 7 years ago for more than I paid.
Gen 2 sounded slightly sharper, and clearer, at high C than gen 1. I think about playing again, and based on this I'd certainly consider the 8310z gen 2.
Q: how much of the sound difference might be due to lacquer vs silver?
The finish does add another variable and it would be more apples to apples if they were the same. I tried both lacquer and silver versions of the Gen 2 and while I and others could discern a difference, determining a preference was not so easy. I believe that Bobby Shew has always preferred lacquer. In general terms I'd say the variations attributable to the player (me, anyway) are likely to be greater than those attributable to the finish, so I think in many cases it comes down to aesthetic preference. Thanks for the question!
Studies have shown it's about the laquer and not about the metal (gold, raw brass, silver). Laquer is 30X thicker than plating.
I bought an 8310z new when tge second version came out. A dealer was selling the original version 40% off because they wanted to stock the new version. I have played it in all kinds of settings including orchestras.
Faced with a choice between a Gen 2 and a Gen 1 at a 40% savings, that would be a hard call. Thanks for sharing your experience!
I concur with your observations.
Thanks for that. I'm going to post a second comparison to see if any opinions change one way or the other.
Crazy... preferred the focus of the silver horn until you started blowing. Then the character of the other horn spoke.
I've been playing a lacquer 6310z for over 20 years, so I'm probably biased.
The lacquer vs. silver finishes introduce another variation into the equation, but I'd expect opinions to be split regardless. I'm sort of the opposite--I prefer what I hear as a more 'diffuse' character in the Gen 2 on the blowing.
Yep I get your points view. All models have almost imperceptible tiny details that make un huge impact on them.
Love the old 6335H and his GenII (6335H II), like the 9335 Vizzutti’s model, they’ve increased different weights, shapes and materials. Completely agree with you, some Artist models complete, complement the Player, that’s why they will work for some and not for others in some perspective. About the Z models, they’re almost a different cats that I can’t named no more a Z Shew’s Model. Gen 1 are the most balanced, Gen 2 in the middle, Gen 3 the most efficient. They increased weight, new Bell and Valve Block (perhaps the New Xeno model like Chicago that make it slightly better. At least more overall balanced. Can’t say if they have a new Leadpipe, but you know how it is.
Most of us, should understand that each airflow emission and mouthpiece will make a huge impact on all this differences that we feel. Who plays softer/louder, bigger/small mouthpieces with smaller/larger Drills will have it all.
Personally never liked of Step Bore models, the Shew trumpet Z models, however love his Flugel Gen 1 model.
That's why there are different models that suit different players. That said, if you picked any one of the trumpets I've owned over the course of my career, and that was the only trumpet I ever owned, I think the effect on my playing would be minimal if at all. We learn to work with whatever we've got.
A former student spent time in Africa working with a local community that had one trumpet shared between them. To his astonishment, he discovered that two of the valves were identical, i.e., the trumpet had a first valve in a second valve casing. Somehow or other, they had learned to work around a dysfunctional instrument. He gave them the plastic trumpet he brought with them and was trying to organize the donation of more.
I'm not a Yamaha player (1975 golden Schilke B7Lb for a long time), but the two horns I remember best also turn out to be quite rare. I was very charmed by the Vax model (6335MV) and the Till Bronner model (6330B). Both models only have been in production for a short period, and I never understood why. I would choose the MV over the RC any time.
I'd forgotten about the 6335MV. I had one at some point. Never seen the 6330B--I'm guessing maybe it was only sold in Europe.
@@chasesanborn Yes the 6330B was a Yamaha Germany product. I had the chance to try it once, it was a very easy and even playing horn with a very buttery sound, I loved it.
Thanks for the comparison and insights! As far as the technical comparisons I could take or leave either, but in the later, more musical demos, I did prefer the greater warmth and consistency of tone of the gen 1. The gen 1 has been my workhorse since 2016, which may not sound like a long time, but I only started playing in 2012 or so. Going even slightly further back on the family tree than the 6310Z, I recently acquired a nice 732 (based on a Schilke B7) from Rich Ita’s shop, and have noticed a similar effect. It seems that as Yamaha modernizes their existing horns, the sound tends to become more present and slightly more responsive. But, on the other hand, I have been doing almost all of my playing on the 732 these past weeks, and truly love its sound, even compared to the 8310Z. I got it as a backup but it will likely end up being my “classical” horn, whereas the 8310Z will end up as my big band, combo, and pep horn while I’m in school.
The sound is a combination of the instrument and the player. Finding a horn that complements your natural sound is a good goal. For me, the mouthpiece has a greater effect on tone than the horn.
Thank you for your highly interesting efforts - for me it means a lot. As I am hearing from Bose Table Speakers the 1 st Generation sounds with more attack and boldness the 2 nd Gen sounds much softer....this no bad thing but for me zthe Gen 1 responds more intensively.
Thanks for the comment--it's an intriguing cross section of opinions. I think perhaps there is more subtlety in the Gen 2, which might be heard as a positive or negative or neither for a given person or musical situation.
Love this and looking for a personal take to my grave horn. I have a Yamaha YCR-8335G Neo Cornet, which i play in a Brass Band. Fantastic instrument even if the intonation can be a little off playing on the bach 1 1/2 c mouth piece. That's largely a me problem though. I like the instrument so much im looking for a great all rounder trumpet too.
Fortunately trumpets are not so expensive that most of us have to be wedded to one for life, however if I had played one trumpet only for my entire career--assuming it was a good one to start and kept in good repair--I don't imagine it would have made any difference in the player I turned out to be. I feel somewhat differently about mouthpieces. I've been through a number of them as well, although thanks to GR there have been no changes to that gear in the last 25 years.
Subtle, but to me the most obvious difference is the Gen 2 sound seems a bit more compact and focused, which I would probably prefer for the gigs (commercial/lead, always mic’ed) that I do.
Thanks for weighing in!
I can hear the difference and I have always been partial to that warmer, more mellow sound of the brass trumpet. Perhaps the best illustration in my mind is the compare and contrast between two world class trumpet players. Philip Smith formerly of the NY Philharmonic who played a beautiful and lyric silver trumpet. And, the late Armando Ghitalla, formerly of the Boston Symphony, played that rich, mellow brass trumpet. Both were elite to say the least. But when you are playing the blues or a ballad, I want that rich mellow sound. And when you are screaming at quadruple F#, I expect that trumpet to be silver. And just to reinforce my point, Lyn Biviano that famous scream trumpet cat can be seen playing a silver horn.
Almost all trumpets are made of brass, of course, but I assume you are referring to the finish rather than the composition of the metal. For that matter, there are different alloys that fall under the general description of brass, relating mostly to the copper content as it applies to brass instruments, e.g., gold or red brass.
If I were strictly comparing the two generations, it would have made sense to have both with the same finish to eliminate one variable. Even the visible difference probably has an impact on a viewer's perception. If I didn't already own the lacquer Gen 1, I might just as well have picked the lacquer Gen 2, since I didn't really have a strong feeling one way or the other. I believe Bobby Shew prefers the lacquer version of the horn designed for him. If I can get my hands on the lacquer Gen 2, perhaps I'll try to repeat the experiment.
Whatever one's perception, generalities quickly come up against contradictions. You'll note that others in these comments hear the silver Gen 2 as more mellow in this demonstration (whether that's the horn or the way I interact with the horn is another matter of debate), and there exists no shortage of high notes emanating from lacquered horns. Bobby Shew's been known to belt out a few! Thanks for your comment!
I played a gen 1 from December of 2006, and switched to a gen 2 in silver, in May of 2023.
and now I am curious and hope very much to find a similar sound comparison video of yours YTR9333CH versus NY....thanks...
I no longer own the Chicago.
Love the solo! I hear some KD-isms. One thing I noticed is how different the tuning slides are positioned. The 1st Gen is quite a ways out, whereas with the newer horn, it looks all the way pushed in. What would be the explanation for the marked difference?
I'll happily if humbly accept any comparisons to Kenny Dorham! The tuning slides are in the same position, but on the Gen 2 the first inch or so of the inner slide is silver plated so you only see a sliver of the raw brass that is the rest of the slide. I assume that's done for aesthetic reasons since the raw brass stands out more against the silver than the lacquer.
What was different about the 6310z compared to either the first or second generation 8310z?
I'm on the market for a pro horn (Yamaha preferably) and I would like to know what the differences were between the 6 and 8.
The 8310Z was a fairly substantial redesign that retained the step-bore design of the 6310Z but broadened the sound and made it an easier transition from other horns, so the 8310Z appeals to a wider cross-section of players. While opinions vary in these comments on the comparison between the two generations of the 8310Z, we've yet to hear (and I've yet to meet) anyone who prefers the 6310Z, although I'm sure someone is out there with that mindset. If you are shopping for a new horn you are only likely to encounter the 8310Z. Here's a follow-up video: ua-cam.com/video/sYgfMC574dk/v-deo.html
Any thoughts on the bore size and resistance compared to, say, a Schilke B3 (with a Bach 1-1/4 or Schilke 19 mpc? Saw a quote from Maynard, years ago, in Instrumentalist magazine, to the effect of "play the largest equipment you can handle." I've always marveled that Bobby Shew plays so well on smaller, if not the smallest, instruments. I think I'd have to re-train for months to make it work.
As I've never owned a B3, I don't have any basis for comparison. Perhaps someone else in the comments might. I would not expect a 'human bellows' like Maynard to match well with the small bore of the 8310Z--that's not what it's designed for. That said, I have no problem going from a typical medium large bore to the 8310Z; it's not a radically different feel from my standpoint.
I have a dark horse favorite! 5330 MRC 😮❤
Designed for Mariachi, that is one of the few Yamaha trumpets that I've never played.
@@chasesanborn I’m a busy amateur. I use it for community band, jazz band and symphony! (I don’t tell those symphony guys what I’ve got!😉) My eyes literally got big when I first tried it 😳 after playing many candidates! This is sure worth trying!!! (PS After I’d played it for what I thought was a few minutes the rep came by and said it was a half hour and he was considering a rental fee!🤣
Hi. Thanks for this well done comparison. I would appreciate a comparison of the 8335 with the 8310z. What is the weight difference-was that a factor in your switch? How about the tone differences and responsiveness? Thank you for all your videos.
I no longer have the 8335 so I can't do a comparison video, although having done this one I wish I had. The 8335 is a really well balanced horn that covers all the bases equally well. It's been more than a year since I gravitated towards the 8310Z; I'd say the primary things that appeal to me about it are the light weight and responsiveness. As I said in the video, I could happily go back to any of the Yamaha horns I've ever owned. When they are played head to head the differences may be apparent, but once it's just you and the horn the individual qualities of the instrument recede relative to the role of the body, i.e., I sound like me on any horn, for better or worse. :)
I saw your past video about your collection of GR mouthpieces with different cups. Which mouthpiece did you use when comparing these horns? Or did you use all of them?
Good question. I don't actually remember, but I would not have changed mouthpieces since that would introduce another variable. It was either the CS66M or the CS66MS, as I use those two the most.
Great musician and great trumpets!!!
If you are referring to me, thank you. If you are referring to Bobby Shew, without a doubt. And on the trumpets, we agree.
The 8310Z does have a distinct sound; the Gen II sounds to me a little more a like a typical trumpet for whatever reason (brighter?).
Thanks for sharing your impressions!
In the music the gen2 sounds a bit dryer. The gen1 sounds rounder and somehow softer and more pleasing to my ear.
It's interesting to note the various adjectives that people use to describe the sound as they hear it. Also the degree to which opinion is split on which they prefer. Thanks for weighing in!
To me the sound of the Gen 2 horn is slightly more defined, punchier and a little brighter. The Gen 1 sounds more mellow. It could be my imagination providing confirmation bias however as I always expect silver horns to be brighter. I'm still playing a 6310Z though I am thinking of trying the newer model.
It's a constant question of 'do I hear that or do I think I hear that?'. I would say I'm more likely than not to agree with your description. I think you'll find a bigger difference moving from the 6310 than between the two generations of the 8310. I'm sure there are people who prefer the 6310 to the 8310, but I expect they would be in the small minority. I don't think anyone has voiced that opinion that in the comments.
Well, if you were playing lead you’d definitely want the Gen II.
And I don’t think you’d lose anything with it if you were doing Chet Baker-style playing.
I’m a Yamaha “artist” (hehe) myself and my low end horn is by far the best trumpet I’ve ever owned.
Some in the comments hear the Gen 1 as brighter (and therefore potentially more of a lead horn). Some hear the opposite. My own impression is that the Gen 2 has a wider range of tonal color, and stands out particularly in the jazz context.
Awesome video and playing, thank you so much. Would it be insane overkill to buy a ZII as my first trumpet? Been playing sax, bass, guitar and piano since the early/mid 70's and always wanted to explore trumpet. I'm the type of person who likes to have nice gear so that if the results are less than stellar, then I know that I alone am to blame. LOL
Trumpet is one of the cheapest instruments to buy and maintain, and the ZII is priced in the reasonable range of pro horns, so no, not insane, especially for someone who likes nice gear. Thanks for your kind words!
Great Video! What tune were you improvising over?
I had to go back and listen to answer that question. The tune is The Second Time Around.
your sound amazing
That's generous of you to say that, thanks!
I've owned exactly 2 trumpets, both Strads. Only changed bc the first was a large bore and I gradually found I couldn't play it as long as in the olden days. Found the receipt when I sold it... I had it 42 years. Interestingly, my current horn is also silver (sterling bell); the old one was lacquered brass. :-) I also dropped my mp from 1.5C to 3C at the same time. I assume you retained the same mp.
My first horn was new. My current horn is 3rd hand.
I listened with headphones, and yes there is a difference. But I can't say one sounds "better" or more mellow or brighter; they are just different. And to my ear, both changed as you went further in the video. I guess I would sort of expect that... Curious if you can actually "feel" the difference? Any chance you could do a double-blind? Might there be something phycological going on? Playing music is an art, after all.
Long before I felt the need to downgrade my bore, Bach brought a bunch of horns to my local store. I tried 6 or 8 strads; some were the same model. And they were all subtly different, even the same ones! So yes, I believe you can tell the difference between generations. Would be really interesting if you tried several gen 2s that are supposedly "identical"?
Playing trumpet has always been an avocation for me. I generally enjoy all your music videos and rarely come away without learning something. I learned a lot with this one. Thank you.
If the audience was 'blind' and I played the same thing twice on the same horn, telling them I had switched, people would hear a difference. That is both a psychological and a physical phenomena, in that it is impossible for me to play something exactly the same. The effect is not lost on the performer--there is a vested interest in wanting the newest horn to sound the best.
If I were playing the horns without knowing which is which, I THINK I could tell the difference, however I'm sure I would not be 100% correct. Of course, we are comparing two very similar horns, making the distinction quite subtle. It would be even more so if I was playing two supposedly identical horns. (No two horns will ever truly be identical, although Yamaha is a class-leader when it comes to consistency.) When I was comparing the Gen 2 in lacquer and silver, much like your comment I could hear a difference but had no clear preference.
As I listen to the demo, I'm aware of the difference in the way I played something. For example, on the blowing, I recorded one full take on each horn and then switched between them in the edit to avoid trying to quickly put one horn down and pick up another. My approach on the second take (the silver Gen 2) is more subdued both in style and volume. I had to try to balance the volume in the edit because hearing one horn played louder will influence the perception of tone quality. I believe the horn has some influence in the way I played, but I think the greater factor is the difference between a first take and a second take. It would be an interesting experiment to play the entire demonstration again, reversing the order in which I played the horns, starting with the Gen 2 each time.
There is another factor when comparing a new horn to one you've been playing--familiarity. I've done multiple-horn comparisons in front of a live audience; people often prefer my own horn because they can hear that I sound most comfortable on it. That's less a factor in this case, because the horns are so similar and I had been playing the Gen 2 for a couple of months when I made this video.
Case is the man 🎺🔥🔥🔥🔥
OOPS Chase in the man on Trumpet.
Thanks for the 'h' and the kind words! :)
This may have been covered somewhere else, but I found it interesting that your tuning slide was about an inch out as far as I could tell. Are we playing on the sharp end of the slot?? FWTW, and in HMO, given what I perceived from this distance as the core of the Gen II, that would make it the winner in my books. I think I would buy it in lacquer.
My tuning slide is out a little less than an inch on any horn--that's where it needs to be for me. I'm pretty aware of where the slots are and where the best compromise position for my slide is. The slide position varies with the individual, but I've known quite a few students who have the slide too far in and have developed the habit of pushing down on the pitch, sometimes in an attempt to produce a 'jazz' sound.
The slide position is the same on both Gen 1 and 2, but it looks deceiving because the first part of the tuning slide is silver plated on the Gen 2.
Above all, sounds of Silver plating, and Lacquer plated instruments, are two worlds..🎉🎉😂😂
I wouldn't say it's the most significant factor, but it makes a difference for sure.
I liked the gen 2 better in every case, especially the softer jazz solos.
I've done more experimenting and can hear a clear difference on recordings especially on the jazz side. I might post another comparison. Thanks for sharing your opinion!
Love more the sound of the second it is softer.
It's a split decision. Note the previous comment.
A priori I preferred the G2 until you play a jazz solo, as if the G1 was more suitable for solos.
Watch this one and see if your opinion stays the same. ua-cam.com/video/8WIXAoc4xU0/v-deo.html
6310 ZS❤️
A vote for the original.
@@chasesanborn yes me too
I have silver Bobby Shew 6310 ZS. Amazing sound after many years of using.
You missed the 70ies YTR 632, it sounds better than those Shew horns..you play nice on both.
My time with Yamaha horns began with the 6335H. What sounds better is a subjective judgment, as the comments illustrate.
The gen 2 doesn't say when yamaha was founded, in the bell engraving.
That's another indication of which generation is which. There are a few other clues as well, but I think the valve buttons are the easiest to spot. The smooth ones on the Gen 1 stand out.
Why Yamaha? Have you visited the Bach factory? Mt Vernon or Elkhart?
I have been a Yamaha Artist for decades, which is why I was invited toJapan to tour the factories. I have not toured the Bach facilities.
@chasesanborn you are very talented! Years of practice experience
More of the latter than the former in my case.
Gen2 ,более ярче и чувствуется есть сопротивление больше чем в 1.
Google translation: "Gen 2 sounds brighter and seems like it has more resistance."
It's interesting how different people hear one or the other horn as brighter.
@@chasesanborn Thank you.
I liked first gen.
It's a split decision. Note the next comment.
I guess you can't find a Yamaha trumpet you like. I'd change brands.
More to the point, I can't find one I don't like. :) Nor can I find a company that does more to support music education.
@@chasesanborn It was just a little joke based on that exhaustive litany of horns! Keep searching, Chase!
1°
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