Tom Arnold + Bill Paxton made me totally enjoy True Lies...has to be the most underrated Cameron film... and it's fantastic. As for 'The Abyss' I can NOT wait to see this in 4KHD...it's been wayyyyyy too long ! That film made me want to learn scuba, which eventually just changed my life.
Wow, that's awesome! Yeah, and it's not like I hate True Lies or anything - it's just my least favorite of these three. The Abyss and Aliens were a big part of my childhood. I will say though - watching True Lies again, the big takeaway was how much I miss Bill Paxton. He was so good in that and...you know, I can't think of a BAD Bill Paxton performance. That's interesting though - The Abyss made me NOT want to go in the ocean, but that's really cool that it inspired you!
I'm glad you saw the Special Edition of Aliens. That's the only way to watch Aliens now, especially after Alien Isolation. To me, this movie is the greatest sci-fi and one of the Top 3 sequels ever made. Sigourney Weaver shouldve won Best Actress. Thanks to James Cameron's writing and Sigourney Weavers acting, Ellen Ripley is one of the greatest, strongest, most iconic female characters ever put on film. To me, Aliens is a timeless masterpiece that should be ranked up there with The Wizard of Oz. We should respect Aliens, True Lies ans The Abyss as such.
It’s my favorite of these three, for sure. I’d even say it may even be more watchable than the first, but I’ve seen this movie SOOO many times! I agree with you that Ms Weaver deserved to win - her performance is so good in this! Watching these three, it also made me realize just how many movies Cameron and Ridley Scott have made with strong female characters, and not in a “we’re gonna make the male characters weak or stupid”, either. The scene that just flat out takes me out of the movie though, when it comes to the special edition (which I’ve seen MANY times) is that Hadley’s Hope scene at the beginning. It’s just not up to the standard of the rest of the film, in my opinion. Other than that, the SE is awesome!
Thanks for the great video. I love all these 4k releases. All look great to me and I don’t think there were or will be better versions in the next many years.
I didn’t even know that the Spanish BR existed before these 4Ks came out. And of the three, TL is the only one that was overly smoothed to the point that it took me out of the movie.
Awesome and honest review Rob. I just got all three of these movies yesterday and so far I’ve watched true lies and aliens, and I am totally blown away by these 4K releases. I think James Cameron knocked it out of the park with cleaning these up and i’ve owned several versions of all three of these films over the years, including laser disc, and I’ve never seen them look this good. Watching the abyss tonight and I’m sure I’m going to be blown away again.
Instead of googone try a paper towel with isopropyl alcohol, tiny amount, enough to wet the remaining sticker. Wipe off what will gently come off then re-apply, repeat until its all gone. Less chance of damage to the slipcover, less lingering odor, etc. Also I agree on your take on the Cameron release... are they perfect? No - but they are as good as they've ever been overall.
Thank you!👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Totally agree with your opinion. I love love these new 4k HDR versions. For me, it’s like watching it for the first time. I totally dislike Film Grain, don’t understand how lots of people prefer film grain when it looks so much better without while still keeping the details with sharper and better colors. Thats the whole reason for purchasing a 4K HDR TV. These are reference movies and strongly suggest a buy. People want film grain, then they should watch these movies on the original release from the 80’s on VHS cassettes on an 80’s TV 📺.
Much appreciated! I do understand wanting to preserve that original look, but I also understand that in order to attract a new audience in this day and age, a presentation like this is (for the most part) more preferable. I’m happy you’re enjoying them!
Grain is the detail in film. Remove the grain, you remove the detail. Simple. Then Cameron used AI to add detail, and a lot of the results are laughable because the tech isn't ready. Sometimes people are rubbery and smooth. Sometimes they are not. WITHIN THE SAME SHOT. You're right about sharpening, it's going on almost throughout the whole movie, resulting in ringing and halos. (HAHAHA) You don't even have to pause the image to see this stuff. I just let the film play, and realised that I was watching an AI upscale, SDR to HDR atrocity. If you can't see the glaring problems, fair enough, but don't have a (nonsensical and naive) go at people who know what they're talking about.
You talk (in many comments) about how superior your opinion is, but really, at this point, the one that matters is that Cameron himself approved these transfers. The only question at this point is whether or not YOU or anyone else should buy them. I’ve outlined the differences between them and what I thought - but if someone has purchased them and god forbid actually enjoys them…are you trying to say that your opinion is more valid?
I don’t get the negativity out there. This is a strange clique of so called enthusiasts that think they are the be all end all in deciding what looks good vs what doesn’t. Ignore them! They have an agenda as these look terrific! 👍🏻
Yes, and it’s exhausting. I thought for a while there that we were safe to have our own opinions on these releases! I guess some people just need a dragon to slay.
So far I have only seen True Lies on 4K, yes, it could look better but it's way better than the dvd we've had for decades, T2 is definitely the worst James Cameron 4K release so far, hear there's a new 4K transfer coming out at some point, hopefully it will retain the original colour, I didn't mind the slight adjustments such as fixing the window of the truck or face replacements but no doubts it'll still have the film grain scrubbed away.
I thankfully never saw that T2 transfer or the Predator transfer that was so bad. If you’re interested, there was an article over on JoBlo that explains why some of the visual changes were done to these new releases, mainly the removal of grain - made a lot of sense to me.
I think the reality is James Cameron oversaw these transfers. He’s the director and maybe this is his intended look. Titanic looked incredible. So awaiting patiently in the UK. Although I’ve had to import The Abyss
Yes, and that’s the issue, apparently. The film grain camp keep arguing the point, but the fact is that most people prefer a cleaner image, including the director himself! I get why The Abyss isn’t available there, but hopefully you love them when you receive them!
@@order42show I’m all for grain - but if the disc is in its intended form from the supervision of a director, then you only love or hate it - there is no in- between. Can’t wait to watch Aliens on 4K disc. Ive purposely saved not watching for years in the hope it would eventually arrive.
Great video ! Very well presented ! For myself I've pre-ordered "The Abyss" because all I have right now is a non-anamorphic DVD which is frankly unwatchable on modern equipment imo (some DVDs upscale pretty well but this one absolutely does not !). I'll hold off buying the other two until I can get a chance to see them for myself and then decide. Thanks very much. Subbed.
Much appreciated! And would you believe all of that was off the cuff? I usually do an outline and then follow it...I just started recording and suddenly it was 20 minutes! Really hope you enjoy them - The Abyss was jaw-dropping for me!
@@order42show I think it comes across that you're "speaking from the heart" so I'm not surprised that you needed no script or outline...sounds like you're a natural ! Well done ! 🙂👍
Good video, Rob. I think depending on the movie, film grain can be tolerable. I don't have my copy of Aliens yet, but I do want to know how the sound is. I don't have a detailed sound system, but is the movie in Dolby Surround?
From what I'm seeing it isn't that they are unwatchable but they could have been much better. Them not having to be preserved compared to other movies doesn't really mean they shouldn't look as good as possible. That's a cop out statement to say they shouldn't look the best. Them being mainstream shouldn't stop you from making it look how it should look. I understand using some DNR to make the grain less pronounced as the scan process exasterbates it but to remove it almost entirely is not the way. That's how they looked and that's fine. People have been using Alien's 4k as example of how good it looked and how good the HDR was. For Aliens the HDR peaks at 200nits and doesn't even use the colorspace. I'm not going to say it looks bad but they didn't use all the colors avalible on the film print even they could (okay not all but enough for Wide Color Gamit which should be the bare minimum for 4k). With audio having some noise is fine. Of course there is an amount to where it's too much but the middle ground is always there. Overall it is what it is for me they seem to look servicable enough but I can't really get mad that people wanted better. $30+ for a 4k Blu-Ray isn't cheap so people expect the best
I agree with you that they could have been better, but I did try to explain why James Cameron and the studio probably went the route they went. I don’t want to presume what JC was thinking, but if he’s not a fan of grain in the first place, and if he knows that most people don’t either… I’ll also say that in my eyes, Aliens is also a flatter film color-wise than Ridley’s, but I felt that this was a HUGE improvement from the Blu-Ray. 🤷🏻♂️
SOME grain management is necessary on Aliens. It was shot in 1985 for a 1986 release, right before Kodak introduced their fine T-grain emulsion film stocks, in very low light requiring fast film, which is grainy as shit. But grain management has to be done tastefully. Maybe a 25%-50% reduction in grain is the sweet spot.
Well, that’s the thing, right? I think the only time people talk about this subject is when the movie is moderately reduced. This was, I admit, heavily scrubbed of grain, but - Cameron gets what he wants. I’m fine with it - I understand that not everyone will like it, and I would be just as happy with the grain, but man, this is such an improvement over the Blu-Ray in my opinion, regardless. 🤷🏻♂️
The Abyss DVD was one of my first DVD purchases. THX mastering but unfortunately not anamorphic. My 4K Abyss hasn’t arrived yet and I think I will probably end up in your camp but it is a shame that we have to have conversations about this being less than perfect.
No, I get that - but there are situations where anything can be scrutinized to oblivion. I'm in the camp that I don't believe The Abyss and Aliens deserve that. (True Lies I can understand.) Hope you enjoy!
Hi there. It's my first time watching your channel, and I must say I really enjoyed the video and the manner you bring across your honest unbiased opinion. I've pre-ordered all three movies from Amazon, two are on their way and The Abyss is being delayed on top of that, I'm from South Africa and It's my first time ordering from Amazon. True Lies is one of my all time favourite movies, I first saw it on VHS in the 90's when I was a teenager. I saw Aliens for the first time much later and the same with The Abyss. I still have True Lies on VHS, I have The Abyss on DVD and I have the Blu-Ray Disc Boxset of Aliens, the same one you have. If I had to choose between these movies for 2nd and 3rd place, I think I like The Abyss more than Aliens, however Aliens is an excellent movie and one of the best sequels and might even be better than Alien for me. I cant wait to have the movies in my hand and watch them, I've been waiting for a Blu-Ray Disc of True Lies and The Abyss forever and now they are coming to 4K!
You are correct. It's maybe not up to us. But we are the ones buying those titles! You can put those versions gladly on your streaming service for the digital viewers. They don't care. But your best customers should perhaps deserve a version closer to the original format. Of course I'll buy those titles too and everyone will make their own judgment. But all this discussion could have been greatly avoided with putting out the most faithful versions. And perhaps not even trying to make them look like a movie shot yesterday. Judgment still reserved. Haven't seen them yet.
First off - BIG fan of your live show with RMB! Feels like a small world sometimes. I totally see what you're saying about giving your best customers the best possible product, but - I think from JC's point of view, that's exactly what he's trying to do. The majority of people find film grain distracting and/or inferior, INCLUDING JC. I'm ALL for the purest version available (going back to the Star Wars original trilogy), but I've realized that from their point of view they're trying to provide the most pleasing image to the most people. I don't even think it would even enter their mind to do a "clean" version for streaming and a less processed version for disc customers - I just don't think that'd be cost effective for a studio that had already almost written off physical media completely. I guess from my point of view, I can't really judge what doesn't exist, so what I have in my hand is the best looking version available for me (of course, save those few scenes in True Lies when it's REALLY distracting). I really hope that you'll find enjoyment in watching these. I'll be watching "Let's Get Physical" to see your thoughts on them!
@@order42show Thank you for watching and liking the show. That's a nice surprise and awesome. 😍 I think what is at the root of this problem too are television sets with ridiculous ootb settings and people getting used to that look. Which is a smooth degrained look. We all remember the Cruise/McQuarrie video. And we have so many cool labels who managed to give the fans exactly what they want in terms of faithful presentation. They know their customer base. So if most people like you said hate grain. They didn't get that memo luckily. 😁
I agree about the boutique labels doing less aggressive scrubbing or modification of the original image. I guess Cameron’s films fit more of that mainstream audience in my eyes. I have some friends that still like buying discs, but they usually only purchase new discs and the occasional catalog title. Maybe I just don’t have enough collectors in my life. 🤷🏻♂️ But if you and Rob keep doing those shows, I’ll be there!
@@order42show Cameron is one of my favorite directors. And his movies for me are the best amalgamation of what a Blockbuster should/can be. And he certainly puts his all into it. We were waiting so long for those two (three) titles that we just assumed they would end up being more in that boutique quality presentation realm. 😉
As someone who doesn't have a 4k display of any kind, and no dedicated 4K player(PS5 doesn't count), I have to rely on the Blu-Rays that come with these movies, and on standard 1080p displays with Blu-Rays, these movies look really good. They sound amazing, but visually, I have no problems with them. I would imagine I would probably notice issues a bit more if and when I decide to upgrade to 4K. I've seen much worse transfers: i.e. the Predator: Monster Hunter Edition. My god, the transfer on that Blu-Ray was horrendous, and I'm not someone who is picky about such things, but Predator: MHE was painfully obvious to anyone that has working eyeballs.
Absolutely, I’d heard horror stories about that Predator release. And I think it really comes down to whether or not the grain being removed bothers you. I agree with a lot of the naysayers that in a perfect world, every movie would be preserved exactly how it was shot, but Cameron himself decided to alter the prints to remove that grain. I would’ve loved to have had the choice between the original look of the film, grain included, and Cameron’s new vision, but we just didn’t get that choice. I enjoy the new transfers for what they are! When you do upgrade to 4K, you’ll have an even better experience. I’m glad you’re enjoying them!
Thank God my favourite (ALIEN) didn’t get this kind of treatment on 4K. It sucks that ALIENS couldn’t also be treated with the same care and respect. I’m not holding out much hope for THE TERMINATOR 4K release.
Well...I don't think the grain is GONE, but it's definitely minimized. All I can really say is that I enjoyed what I saw (for the most part - those few scenes in True Lies were a bit weird).
It's not just the fact that they removed film grain (which is removing detail), it's that they used this horrible AI upscale software that has made some first-class blunders throughout.
I get what you’re saying, but I didn’t notice anything out of place during The Abyss and Aliens - I actually have seen those movies quite a bit over the years, so I was trying to pay extra attention to the way they looked, and I was super impressed! Of course, I understand how some don’t like it, and that’s your choice on whether to get them or not. I’m happy with them!
I'm drawing a line in the sand... from hence forth, I only buy 4K's with grain intact...unless shot digitally without grain. The shills are going hard to ruin the medium to put their Hollywood nuts on pedestals.
Sharpening, AI fake detail, DNR, Frozen grain etc. No thanks. They should have been preserved better. It's nonsense to basically say that some films don't deserve proper film preservation and others do.
I get that, and I'm not saying they shouldn't be preserved - but my big point here is that I can only review what I have in front of me. Not what it could be - and I think what we got is much better than anything we've had before. I am no arbiter of what's good and what's not, but to my admittedly untrained eye, in motion, these are enjoyable for me to watch! Even True Lies with its handful of scenes that were distracting - still better than any official release we've ever had.
@@order42show I switched between the old blu and the UHD for Aliens a few times, and No. All those artificial shenanigans/tools that Cameron used on Aliens make it look like it was filmed today on digital. Which it wasn't. Also, These tools have introduced ringing due to sharpening. The dnr and smoothing is distracting too as it's so inconsistent. People look smooth and rubbery. And then they don't. The fake AI detail... the tech is nowhere near ready. I'll happily hold onto my old blu. (Watching on a 65inch OLED)
@order42show Understood. I'm just a tad exhausted over the "noise"/outrage over these 3 recent releases. Forums have been so toxic the last few months, I guess any 'extreme descriptive' triggers me 🙃
Really great comments. I understand everything you say. Have been thinking of getting the ALIENS 4K and you bring me closer to doing it. I go way back with the first ALIEN movies, to when they were released, then on VHS etc...Like you I prefer the 1979 film, but only slightly, since I've really come to love ALIENS. The 1979--wow I can hardly describe what seeing the first time was like. It was exactly what I wanted a sci-fi horror movie to be--absoluitely loved it, went 3 times to the theater in 1979 to see it again. With ALIENS, another BIG DEAL for loads of people. I was there on opening night and Wow....Thanks for your comments on these 4K editions. I also agree that TRUE LIES is the least of them for me--I had never seen it until the 4K digital..fun, but no comparison with the other two
Thank you for the kind words! I wasn’t able to see any of them in the theater (1 was 10 when Aliens came out) but my dad showed me them with his deft muting skills (apparently bad words were worse than an alien coming out of your chest! 😂) Hope you enjoy the 4Ks as much as I do!
I think in the era of digital compression, film grain often just trashes the compression algorithm and makes the whole thing a mess. For those who truly love it, maybe one day the TV manufacturers will put a post processing film grain effect in that can be toggled on. I personally am not a fan of film grain. It's an artifact of film technology and the era, and it might be more authentic for the time, but if I have a chance to view it with a cleaner signal, that is what I would prefer. I say all this, but also contradict myself. I prefer playing retro games on a CRT. The inherent "shittyness" that a CRT display offers trips my nostalgia, lol.
I think contradiction is part of what makes us human - sometimes we like things with absolutely no rhyme or reason! But you’re absolutely right - depending on the level of grain, that could really trip up streaming. It could actually be something that movies like this could actually be worth more to some streamers simply because of that!
Incorrect, a competently encoded blu or UHD of a grainy 16mm film looks fantastic. Also: Grain is the image. Remove the grain, you remove detail. But then Call Cameron to bring back that detail with AI? No thanks.
I meant "Shitty" in the most endearing terms. The Scanlines, The slight phosphor blur/bleed, the aperture grille, etc are all artifacts of the technology of the time. It all give it that vintage look that make all the classic games look at home and how I remember it. I bought a $750 retrotink 4K so that I could make my 4K display look like a classic CRT just for retro games. I do agree LCD for retro stuff is the true "shitty". This is usually because the built in scalers are garbage and until 4K and the Tink4K the display resolution wasn't high enough to replicate scanlines/grills, etc effectivly.
You know - at least when it comes to Cameron, he was always on the forefront of technology, so I agree that he would’ve shot all his films on digital if he could have. I get the idea behind the grain comments - I also want to preserve the movies in their optimum quality, but we’re not getting those! We have what we have, and what we have is pretty great!
Which is the point. They didn't have digital cameras back then. This is a 1986 film. Films are a product of their time. They represent the eras they were made in. To tamper with that is altering film history and creating a completely different product which i not supposed to exist. If you like hyper clean video, go watch UA-cam. Don't bring such fallacious logic as grain = VHS. VHS was a noisy format. Noise and film grain are NOT the same. Film grain IS the detail. It holds the detail captured by the camera. Removing film grain is removing that original, fine detail. The fake detail you see on this UHD is created by AI. Just zoom into any shot and see how plasticky and warped, smudged the picture looks, as a result of excessive image manipulation. No professional good quality film restoration puts older films whose negatives exist through an AI upscaler and calls it a day. It's a cheap effort and it shows.
I understand what you’re saying, and you do make fine points. I’ve seen The Abyss and Aliens many times over the years, and in motion, I honestly didn’t notice anything as egregious as those scenes in True Lies. They were amazingly sharp, but didn’t destroy the image (to my admittedly untrained eye). As a consumer, I’m happy with my purchase! 🤷🏻♂️
@@order42show, 4K UHD is an enthusiast format, as the casual movie viewer has shifted to streaming. So, I personally feel those who spend their hard-earned money to buy such expensive products should not be satisfied by the bare minimum. This way it becomes easier for the owners of those products to make a cheap item and sell it at profit, fooling their customers. It's your money. You should care more, I feel. Also, if such inferior products become popular and sell well, this will lead to more subpar releases in the future and film restoration will be compromised. The producers will realise that they can care less and still get away with it because consumers don't demand better products.
Never ben a fan of film grain. Keeping it real, it was a side effect of either the film stock, or compromises in ISO vs set lighting. I dont think film makers sought out ways to 'create' film grain back then for stylistic purposes. It was something that was tolerated. It seems to be most prominent in movies from the 80s, Im not sure why. Aliens had strong film grain, which didnt exist in the previous movie Alien. And I never liked it. If they were able to remove it without making everthing soft and doughy, than Im all for it. Especially by today's standards where now Im used to seeing things perfectly sharp and crisp. So when I watch old movies with strong film grain, it actually bothers me now.
They removed the grain, which removed inherent detail. Then they tried to bring back that detail with AI with ridiculous results. No thanks. Also, people do look rubbery sometimes. Also artificial sharpening. euh. why would you like an image that is artificially sharper that also results in visible halos and ringing?
I get it. When it is present, I adjust to it. The story is what’s most important for me. But, that’s exactly why some studios, and in this case, Cameron himself decided to remove it. The result is a more modern look, which understandably can ruffle feathers for those who want that pure experience.
Well, that’s a different thing altogether. If film grain is present on the original print of a movie, it should be there on a home release - but JC/the studio didn’t want it. 🤷🏻♂️ (I don’t know if it adds much to a game.)
Depending on the movie, it’s not that noticeable - I watched High Plains Drifter and Thunderbolt and Lightfoot recently - those had VERY noticeable grain throughout!
True Lies is FUNNY! Cameron wanted to lighten up after his dire, gloomy, depressing Cold War nuclear paranoia thrillers Terminator, The Abyss and T2. I think he succeeded!
Um…okay? It wasn’t intentional - in fact, I’d heard that from another review, so, I guess they got it wrong. I had no idea there was a bootleg at all a few days ago.
@@order42show Resen, which released the True Lies BD, is a legal home video brand in Spain, not a bootleg one. They do their own masters, however and thank God for that. It's because they used their own master that we have an option to watch the film with the original grain intact and without this excessive AI processing. In most cases, it's ideal to receive filmmaker-approved masters, but not so when it comes to Cameron, Peter Jackson, George Lucas and certain other filmmakers.
Tom Arnold + Bill Paxton made me totally enjoy True Lies...has to be the most underrated Cameron film... and it's fantastic. As for 'The Abyss' I can NOT wait to see this in 4KHD...it's been wayyyyyy too long ! That film made me want to learn scuba, which eventually just changed my life.
Wow, that's awesome! Yeah, and it's not like I hate True Lies or anything - it's just my least favorite of these three. The Abyss and Aliens were a big part of my childhood. I will say though - watching True Lies again, the big takeaway was how much I miss Bill Paxton. He was so good in that and...you know, I can't think of a BAD Bill Paxton performance.
That's interesting though - The Abyss made me NOT want to go in the ocean, but that's really cool that it inspired you!
I'm glad you saw the Special Edition of Aliens. That's the only way to watch Aliens now, especially after Alien Isolation. To me, this movie is the greatest sci-fi and one of the Top 3 sequels ever made.
Sigourney Weaver shouldve won Best Actress. Thanks to James Cameron's writing and Sigourney Weavers acting, Ellen Ripley is one of the greatest, strongest, most iconic female characters ever put on film.
To me, Aliens is a timeless masterpiece that should be ranked up there with The Wizard of Oz. We should respect Aliens, True Lies ans The Abyss as such.
It’s my favorite of these three, for sure. I’d even say it may even be more watchable than the first, but I’ve seen this movie SOOO many times! I agree with you that Ms Weaver deserved to win - her performance is so good in this! Watching these three, it also made me realize just how many movies Cameron and Ridley Scott have made with strong female characters, and not in a “we’re gonna make the male characters weak or stupid”, either.
The scene that just flat out takes me out of the movie though, when it comes to the special edition (which I’ve seen MANY times) is that Hadley’s Hope scene at the beginning. It’s just not up to the standard of the rest of the film, in my opinion. Other than that, the SE is awesome!
Thanks for the great video. I love all these 4k releases. All look great to me and I don’t think there were or will be better versions in the next many years.
Thank you for watching! Yeah, I’m so happy with them, and it’s frustrating to see so many completely trash them. Glad you’re happy with them, too!
The Spanish Blu Ray, despite its shortcomings, at least lets you see more detail and grain, the downside is that it looks a little darker.
I didn’t even know that the Spanish BR existed before these 4Ks came out. And of the three, TL is the only one that was overly smoothed to the point that it took me out of the movie.
Awesome and honest review Rob. I just got all three of these movies yesterday and so far I’ve watched true lies and aliens, and I am totally blown away by these 4K releases. I think James Cameron knocked it out of the park with cleaning these up and i’ve owned several versions of all three of these films over the years, including laser disc, and I’ve never seen them look this good. Watching the abyss tonight and I’m sure I’m going to be blown away again.
Thanks so much! Yeah, I’m really happy with what we got. And for me, The Abyss was the best looking of the bunch, so you’re in for a treat!
Instead of googone try a paper towel with isopropyl alcohol, tiny amount, enough to wet the remaining sticker. Wipe off what will gently come off then re-apply, repeat until its all gone. Less chance of damage to the slipcover, less lingering odor, etc. Also I agree on your take on the Cameron release... are they perfect? No - but they are as good as they've ever been overall.
Thanks, I’ll give that a shot! And as for the quality - yes, all I can review is what we have in front of us, and I enjoy these. I’m happy with them!
Thank you!👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Totally agree with your opinion. I love love these new 4k HDR versions. For me, it’s like watching it for the first time. I totally dislike Film Grain, don’t understand how lots of people prefer film grain when it looks so much better without while still keeping the details with sharper and better colors. Thats the whole reason for purchasing a 4K HDR TV. These are reference movies and strongly suggest a buy.
People want film grain, then they should watch these movies on the original release from the 80’s on VHS cassettes on an 80’s TV 📺.
Much appreciated! I do understand wanting to preserve that original look, but I also understand that in order to attract a new audience in this day and age, a presentation like this is (for the most part) more preferable.
I’m happy you’re enjoying them!
@@order42showWhat’s also wonderful are the Dolby Atmos effects. My theater system got worked up. It’s amazing how great it sounds.
Yes, it was very nice! Love a good surround track!
Grain is the detail in film. Remove the grain, you remove the detail. Simple. Then Cameron used AI to add detail, and a lot of the results are laughable because the tech isn't ready. Sometimes people are rubbery and smooth. Sometimes they are not. WITHIN THE SAME SHOT. You're right about sharpening, it's going on almost throughout the whole movie, resulting in ringing and halos. (HAHAHA) You don't even have to pause the image to see this stuff. I just let the film play, and realised that I was watching an AI upscale, SDR to HDR atrocity. If you can't see the glaring problems, fair enough, but don't have a (nonsensical and naive) go at people who know what they're talking about.
You talk (in many comments) about how superior your opinion is, but really, at this point, the one that matters is that Cameron himself approved these transfers. The only question at this point is whether or not YOU or anyone else should buy them. I’ve outlined the differences between them and what I thought - but if someone has purchased them and god forbid actually enjoys them…are you trying to say that your opinion is more valid?
I don’t get the negativity out there. This is a strange clique of so called enthusiasts that think they are the be all end all in deciding what looks good vs what doesn’t. Ignore them! They have an agenda as these look terrific! 👍🏻
Yes, and it’s exhausting. I thought for a while there that we were safe to have our own opinions on these releases! I guess some people just need a dragon to slay.
So far I have only seen True Lies on 4K, yes, it could look better but it's way better than the dvd we've had for decades, T2 is definitely the worst James Cameron 4K release so far, hear there's a new 4K transfer coming out at some point, hopefully it will retain the original colour, I didn't mind the slight adjustments such as fixing the window of the truck or face replacements but no doubts it'll still have the film grain scrubbed away.
I thankfully never saw that T2 transfer or the Predator transfer that was so bad. If you’re interested, there was an article over on JoBlo that explains why some of the visual changes were done to these new releases, mainly the removal of grain - made a lot of sense to me.
I think the reality is James Cameron oversaw these transfers. He’s the director and maybe this is his intended look. Titanic looked incredible. So awaiting patiently in the UK. Although I’ve had to import The Abyss
Yes, and that’s the issue, apparently. The film grain camp keep arguing the point, but the fact is that most people prefer a cleaner image, including the director himself!
I get why The Abyss isn’t available there, but hopefully you love them when you receive them!
@@order42show I’m all for grain - but if the disc is in its intended form from the supervision of a director, then you only love or hate it - there is no in- between. Can’t wait to watch Aliens on 4K disc. Ive purposely saved not watching for years in the hope it would eventually arrive.
Absolutely!
Great video ! Very well presented ! For myself I've pre-ordered "The Abyss" because all I have right now is a non-anamorphic DVD which is frankly unwatchable on modern equipment imo (some DVDs upscale pretty well but this one absolutely does not !). I'll hold off buying the other two until I can get a chance to see them for myself and then decide. Thanks very much. Subbed.
Much appreciated! And would you believe all of that was off the cuff? I usually do an outline and then follow it...I just started recording and suddenly it was 20 minutes!
Really hope you enjoy them - The Abyss was jaw-dropping for me!
@@order42show I think it comes across that you're "speaking from the heart" so I'm not surprised that you needed no script or outline...sounds like you're a natural ! Well done ! 🙂👍
Thanks so much!
Good video, Rob. I think depending on the movie, film grain can be tolerable. I don't have my copy of Aliens yet, but I do want to know how the sound is. I don't have a detailed sound system, but is the movie in Dolby Surround?
It’s got a Dolby Atmos track and 4.1 Dolby Surround on the Theatrical cut. Audio is nice!
From what I'm seeing it isn't that they are unwatchable but they could have been much better. Them not having to be preserved compared to other movies doesn't really mean they shouldn't look as good as possible. That's a cop out statement to say they shouldn't look the best. Them being mainstream shouldn't stop you from making it look how it should look. I understand using some DNR to make the grain less pronounced as the scan process exasterbates it but to remove it almost entirely is not the way. That's how they looked and that's fine. People have been using Alien's 4k as example of how good it looked and how good the HDR was. For Aliens the HDR peaks at 200nits and doesn't even use the colorspace. I'm not going to say it looks bad but they didn't use all the colors avalible on the film print even they could (okay not all but enough for Wide Color Gamit which should be the bare minimum for 4k). With audio having some noise is fine. Of course there is an amount to where it's too much but the middle ground is always there. Overall it is what it is for me they seem to look servicable enough but I can't really get mad that people wanted better. $30+ for a 4k Blu-Ray isn't cheap so people expect the best
I agree with you that they could have been better, but I did try to explain why James Cameron and the studio probably went the route they went. I don’t want to presume what JC was thinking, but if he’s not a fan of grain in the first place, and if he knows that most people don’t either…
I’ll also say that in my eyes, Aliens is also a flatter film color-wise than Ridley’s, but I felt that this was a HUGE improvement from the Blu-Ray. 🤷🏻♂️
SOME grain management is necessary on Aliens. It was shot in 1985 for a 1986 release, right before Kodak introduced their fine T-grain emulsion film stocks, in very low light requiring fast film, which is grainy as shit. But grain management has to be done tastefully. Maybe a 25%-50% reduction in grain is the sweet spot.
Well, that’s the thing, right? I think the only time people talk about this subject is when the movie is moderately reduced. This was, I admit, heavily scrubbed of grain, but - Cameron gets what he wants. I’m fine with it - I understand that not everyone will like it, and I would be just as happy with the grain, but man, this is such an improvement over the Blu-Ray in my opinion, regardless. 🤷🏻♂️
I'm very happy with all 3 movies.
There for a while I thought I was the only one! Good to hear!
The Abyss DVD was one of my first DVD purchases. THX mastering but unfortunately not anamorphic. My 4K Abyss hasn’t arrived yet and I think I will probably end up in your camp but it is a shame that we have to have conversations about this being less than perfect.
No, I get that - but there are situations where anything can be scrutinized to oblivion. I'm in the camp that I don't believe The Abyss and Aliens deserve that. (True Lies I can understand.) Hope you enjoy!
Hi there. It's my first time watching your channel, and I must say I really enjoyed the video and the manner you bring across your honest unbiased opinion.
I've pre-ordered all three movies from Amazon, two are on their way and The Abyss is being delayed on top of that, I'm from South Africa and It's my first time ordering from Amazon.
True Lies is one of my all time favourite movies, I first saw it on VHS in the 90's when I was a teenager. I saw Aliens for the first time much later and the same with The Abyss.
I still have True Lies on VHS, I have The Abyss on DVD and I have the Blu-Ray Disc Boxset of Aliens, the same one you have. If I had to choose between these movies for 2nd and 3rd place, I think I like The Abyss more than Aliens, however Aliens is an excellent movie and one of the best sequels and might even be better than Alien for me.
I cant wait to have the movies in my hand and watch them, I've been waiting for a Blu-Ray Disc of True Lies and The Abyss forever and now they are coming to 4K!
I appreciate the kind words! These are really fun movies to revisit, and I hope that you’re as pleased with the results as I was!
You are correct. It's maybe not up to us. But we are the ones buying those titles! You can put those versions gladly on your streaming service for the digital viewers. They don't care. But your best customers should perhaps deserve a version closer to the original format.
Of course I'll buy those titles too and everyone will make their own judgment. But all this discussion could have been greatly avoided with putting out the most faithful versions. And perhaps not even trying to make them look like a movie shot yesterday.
Judgment still reserved. Haven't seen them yet.
First off - BIG fan of your live show with RMB! Feels like a small world sometimes.
I totally see what you're saying about giving your best customers the best possible product, but - I think from JC's point of view, that's exactly what he's trying to do. The majority of people find film grain distracting and/or inferior, INCLUDING JC. I'm ALL for the purest version available (going back to the Star Wars original trilogy), but I've realized that from their point of view they're trying to provide the most pleasing image to the most people.
I don't even think it would even enter their mind to do a "clean" version for streaming and a less processed version for disc customers - I just don't think that'd be cost effective for a studio that had already almost written off physical media completely.
I guess from my point of view, I can't really judge what doesn't exist, so what I have in my hand is the best looking version available for me (of course, save those few scenes in True Lies when it's REALLY distracting).
I really hope that you'll find enjoyment in watching these. I'll be watching "Let's Get Physical" to see your thoughts on them!
@@order42show Thank you for watching and liking the show. That's a nice surprise and awesome. 😍
I think what is at the root of this problem too are television sets with ridiculous ootb settings and people getting used to that look. Which is a smooth degrained look. We all remember the Cruise/McQuarrie video. And we have so many cool labels who managed to give the fans exactly what they want in terms of faithful presentation. They know their customer base. So if most people like you said hate grain. They didn't get that memo luckily. 😁
I agree about the boutique labels doing less aggressive scrubbing or modification of the original image. I guess Cameron’s films fit more of that mainstream audience in my eyes. I have some friends that still like buying discs, but they usually only purchase new discs and the occasional catalog title. Maybe I just don’t have enough collectors in my life. 🤷🏻♂️
But if you and Rob keep doing those shows, I’ll be there!
@@order42show Cameron is one of my favorite directors. And his movies for me are the best amalgamation of what a Blockbuster should/can be. And he certainly puts his all into it. We were waiting so long for those two (three) titles that we just assumed they would end up being more in that boutique quality presentation realm. 😉
As someone who doesn't have a 4k display of any kind, and no dedicated 4K player(PS5 doesn't count), I have to rely on the Blu-Rays that come with these movies, and on standard 1080p displays with Blu-Rays, these movies look really good. They sound amazing, but visually, I have no problems with them. I would imagine I would probably notice issues a bit more if and when I decide to upgrade to 4K. I've seen much worse transfers: i.e. the Predator: Monster Hunter Edition. My god, the transfer on that Blu-Ray was horrendous, and I'm not someone who is picky about such things, but Predator: MHE was painfully obvious to anyone that has working eyeballs.
Absolutely, I’d heard horror stories about that Predator release. And I think it really comes down to whether or not the grain being removed bothers you.
I agree with a lot of the naysayers that in a perfect world, every movie would be preserved exactly how it was shot, but Cameron himself decided to alter the prints to remove that grain. I would’ve loved to have had the choice between the original look of the film, grain included, and Cameron’s new vision, but we just didn’t get that choice.
I enjoy the new transfers for what they are! When you do upgrade to 4K, you’ll have an even better experience. I’m glad you’re enjoying them!
Thank God my favourite (ALIEN) didn’t get this kind of treatment on 4K.
It sucks that ALIENS couldn’t also be treated with the same care and respect.
I’m not holding out much hope for THE TERMINATOR 4K release.
I mean…I enjoy it. 🤷🏻♂️
Triumph! Enjoyed my copy of all three movies. They never looked better on screen.
Excellent! I’m glad you’re enjoying them!
@@order42show 👍
I'm happy for you that you unable to see the glaring problems on this release.
I’m happy that you continue to assume that your opinion matters more than others.
@order42show Would it make you happy if others' opinions matter more than mine? Get real. Lol
Depends what's more important video detail or a grain less film
Well...I don't think the grain is GONE, but it's definitely minimized. All I can really say is that I enjoyed what I saw (for the most part - those few scenes in True Lies were a bit weird).
It's not just the fact that they removed film grain (which is removing detail), it's that they used this horrible AI upscale software that has made some first-class blunders throughout.
I get what you’re saying, but I didn’t notice anything out of place during The Abyss and Aliens - I actually have seen those movies quite a bit over the years, so I was trying to pay extra attention to the way they looked, and I was super impressed!
Of course, I understand how some don’t like it, and that’s your choice on whether to get them or not. I’m happy with them!
@@order42show Aliens shows sharpening, smoothing DNR, ringing, and frozen grain. That's just to begin with.
Is Aliens 4k full widescreen?
It was shot at 1.85 - VERY close to 16:9. It filled my screen.
@@order42showI'm sure there is some missing, I saw this in the cinema many years ago and it was definitely wider screen!?
No, that was always 1.85. I wonder if they matted it to appear wider?
@@order42showmaybe it's because it was so long ago, I was young and the screen was massive...
Lucky! First time I saw it was with my dad, recorded off of HBO, with him trying (and failing) to mute out the bad words! 😂
I'm drawing a line in the sand... from hence forth, I only buy 4K's with grain intact...unless shot digitally without grain. The shills are going hard to ruin the medium to put their Hollywood nuts on pedestals.
That’s totally your prerogative!
But…are you saying I’m a shill? If so, where can I get my money?
Sharpening, AI fake detail, DNR, Frozen grain etc. No thanks. They should have been preserved better. It's nonsense to basically say that some films don't deserve proper film preservation and others do.
I get that, and I'm not saying they shouldn't be preserved - but my big point here is that I can only review what I have in front of me. Not what it could be - and I think what we got is much better than anything we've had before.
I am no arbiter of what's good and what's not, but to my admittedly untrained eye, in motion, these are enjoyable for me to watch! Even True Lies with its handful of scenes that were distracting - still better than any official release we've ever had.
@@order42show I switched between the old blu and the UHD for Aliens a few times, and No. All those artificial shenanigans/tools that Cameron used on Aliens make it look like it was filmed today on digital. Which it wasn't. Also, These tools have introduced ringing due to sharpening. The dnr and smoothing is distracting too as it's so inconsistent. People look smooth and rubbery. And then they don't. The fake AI detail... the tech is nowhere near ready. I'll happily hold onto my old blu. (Watching on a 65inch OLED)
Travesty? Sticker goop is a travesty? Oy.🤨
The title comes from a review from someone else who called these releases a travesty - I was making a joke about the stickers.
@order42show Understood. I'm just a tad exhausted over the "noise"/outrage over these 3 recent releases. Forums have been so toxic the last few months, I guess any 'extreme descriptive' triggers me 🙃
Sorry! I was more trying to filter through the noise - I’ve also seen a lot of those threads over on the Blu-Ray.com forums!
Really great comments. I understand everything you say. Have been thinking of getting the ALIENS 4K and you bring me closer to doing it. I go way back with the first ALIEN movies, to when they were released, then on VHS etc...Like you I prefer the 1979 film, but only slightly, since I've really come to love ALIENS. The 1979--wow I can hardly describe what seeing the first time was like. It was exactly what I wanted a sci-fi horror movie to be--absoluitely loved it, went 3 times to the theater in 1979 to see it again. With ALIENS, another BIG DEAL for loads of people. I was there on opening night and Wow....Thanks for your comments on these 4K editions. I also agree that TRUE LIES is the least of them for me--I had never seen it until the 4K digital..fun, but no comparison with the other two
Thank you for the kind words! I wasn’t able to see any of them in the theater (1 was 10 when Aliens came out) but my dad showed me them with his deft muting skills (apparently bad words were worse than an alien coming out of your chest! 😂)
Hope you enjoy the 4Ks as much as I do!
@@order42showGreat story! thanks 😎
I think in the era of digital compression, film grain often just trashes the compression algorithm and makes the whole thing a mess. For those who truly love it, maybe one day the TV manufacturers will put a post processing film grain effect in that can be toggled on. I personally am not a fan of film grain. It's an artifact of film technology and the era, and it might be more authentic for the time, but if I have a chance to view it with a cleaner signal, that is what I would prefer.
I say all this, but also contradict myself. I prefer playing retro games on a CRT. The inherent "shittyness" that a CRT display offers trips my nostalgia, lol.
I think contradiction is part of what makes us human - sometimes we like things with absolutely no rhyme or reason!
But you’re absolutely right - depending on the level of grain, that could really trip up streaming. It could actually be something that movies like this could actually be worth more to some streamers simply because of that!
Incorrect, a competently encoded blu or UHD of a grainy 16mm film looks fantastic. Also: Grain is the image. Remove the grain, you remove detail. But then Call Cameron to bring back that detail with AI? No thanks.
I don’t think CRT was shitty. I only retired my Phillips CRT 7 years ago. I thought LCD was shitty. I went straight from SD CRT to 4K LED.
I meant "Shitty" in the most endearing terms. The Scanlines, The slight phosphor blur/bleed, the aperture grille, etc are all artifacts of the technology of the time. It all give it that vintage look that make all the classic games look at home and how I remember it. I bought a $750 retrotink 4K so that I could make my 4K display look like a classic CRT just for retro games. I do agree LCD for retro stuff is the true "shitty". This is usually because the built in scalers are garbage and until 4K and the Tink4K the display resolution wasn't high enough to replicate scanlines/grills, etc effectivly.
If you want to watch grain, go get a vhs. If they had digital, they would have shot digital at the time.
You know - at least when it comes to Cameron, he was always on the forefront of technology, so I agree that he would’ve shot all his films on digital if he could have. I get the idea behind the grain comments - I also want to preserve the movies in their optimum quality, but we’re not getting those! We have what we have, and what we have is pretty great!
Which is the point. They didn't have digital cameras back then. This is a 1986 film. Films are a product of their time. They represent the eras they were made in. To tamper with that is altering film history and creating a completely different product which i not supposed to exist. If you like hyper clean video, go watch UA-cam. Don't bring such fallacious logic as grain = VHS. VHS was a noisy format. Noise and film grain are NOT the same. Film grain IS the detail. It holds the detail captured by the camera. Removing film grain is removing that original, fine detail. The fake detail you see on this UHD is created by AI. Just zoom into any shot and see how plasticky and warped, smudged the picture looks, as a result of excessive image manipulation. No professional good quality film restoration puts older films whose negatives exist through an AI upscaler and calls it a day. It's a cheap effort and it shows.
I understand what you’re saying, and you do make fine points. I’ve seen The Abyss and Aliens many times over the years, and in motion, I honestly didn’t notice anything as egregious as those scenes in True Lies. They were amazingly sharp, but didn’t destroy the image (to my admittedly untrained eye). As a consumer, I’m happy with my purchase! 🤷🏻♂️
But they didn't have digital at the time. Your point is void.
@@order42show, 4K UHD is an enthusiast format, as the casual movie viewer has shifted to streaming. So, I personally feel those who spend their hard-earned money to buy such expensive products should not be satisfied by the bare minimum. This way it becomes easier for the owners of those products to make a cheap item and sell it at profit, fooling their customers. It's your money. You should care more, I feel. Also, if such inferior products become popular and sell well, this will lead to more subpar releases in the future and film restoration will be compromised. The producers will realise that they can care less and still get away with it because consumers don't demand better products.
Rub-a-dub-dub
Scrub-scrub-scrub!
🤔
Never ben a fan of film grain. Keeping it real, it was a side effect of either the film stock, or compromises in ISO vs set lighting. I dont think film makers sought out ways to 'create' film grain back then for stylistic purposes. It was something that was tolerated. It seems to be most prominent in movies from the 80s, Im not sure why. Aliens had strong film grain, which didnt exist in the previous movie Alien. And I never liked it. If they were able to remove it without making everthing soft and doughy, than Im all for it. Especially by today's standards where now Im used to seeing things perfectly sharp and crisp. So when I watch old movies with strong film grain, it actually bothers me now.
They removed the grain, which removed inherent detail. Then they tried to bring back that detail with AI with ridiculous results. No thanks. Also, people do look rubbery sometimes. Also artificial sharpening. euh. why would you like an image that is artificially sharper that also results in visible halos and ringing?
I get it. When it is present, I adjust to it. The story is what’s most important for me. But, that’s exactly why some studios, and in this case, Cameron himself decided to remove it. The result is a more modern look, which understandably can ruffle feathers for those who want that pure experience.
In the case of Abyss and Aliens and most of True Lies, the results were pretty good! Seeing them in motion is not bad at all, in my opinion.
yeah im not a film grain person, i even turn it off in games BUT it depends on the game
Well, that’s a different thing altogether. If film grain is present on the original print of a movie, it should be there on a home release - but JC/the studio didn’t want it. 🤷🏻♂️
(I don’t know if it adds much to a game.)
@@order42show i never really noticed grain on movies but i wasnt looking for it lol
Depending on the movie, it’s not that noticeable - I watched High Plains Drifter and Thunderbolt and Lightfoot recently - those had VERY noticeable grain throughout!
True Lies is a real stinker of a movie. Cant believe the hype around it.
Ha, I’ve not met anyone that disliked it on that level! Although…the world felt a little smaller back in ‘94. I’ll agree it’s not the best!
People who play FIFA unironically are in no position to criticize anything.
@@NinjaRunningWild Funny you made the effort to check my 5 year old videos for this comment 🙂
True Lies is FUNNY! Cameron wanted to lighten up after his dire, gloomy, depressing Cold War nuclear paranoia thrillers Terminator, The Abyss and T2. I think he succeeded!
While it’s not my favorite, I’m glad I own it. But that’s why film is fun to discuss, everyone’s taste is different.
Yes, man. You are. The True Lies Bootleg BR is not Mexican, it's Spanish. That would be exactly like mixing up a Yank and a Limey.
Um…okay? It wasn’t intentional - in fact, I’d heard that from another review, so, I guess they got it wrong. I had no idea there was a bootleg at all a few days ago.
@@order42show Resen, which released the True Lies BD, is a legal home video brand in Spain, not a bootleg one. They do their own masters, however and thank God for that. It's because they used their own master that we have an option to watch the film with the original grain intact and without this excessive AI processing. In most cases, it's ideal to receive filmmaker-approved masters, but not so when it comes to Cameron, Peter Jackson, George Lucas and certain other filmmakers.