The Teacher - Student Relationship & Baishi in Chinese Martial Arts
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- Опубліковано 2 жов 2020
- While Chinese martial arts in the west are often taught in clubs which have a formal curriculum and rankings, in China it is very different. In this video I talk about the teacher-student relationship in China, and what it means to call someone Shifu.
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What’s your experience with your teacher? Let me know below?
OMFG thank you for saying this! I don't know if you noticed but it's not just Sifu that's used as a title that sounds like an imposing rank for a Kung Fu teacher. There is also Tai-Sifu or Dai-Sifu, Tai Sigung and lets not forget, Grandmaster. I don't mind titles like Sihing or Sijair because they are familial titles and I think give a fair understanding of what that person is supposed to be to the student, but again these are often given to people who have achieved a certain rank, for example in the PBIF, where my lineage is from, they get that title when they get a black belt. There is a certain Wing Chun teacher who styles himself the Kung Fu Genius, (pretending it's ironic but he really means it, I won't go into the origins of it but that's a dodgy story too), who made a whole video detailing all these titles and what he says they mean, and it's just ridiculous to me, and rather Orientalist.
The absolute worst though imo is Simo- this is included in the so called Kung Fu Genius' video. I don't know if you recognise that as a word in Cantonese even, (I once asked Ramsay Dewey who has lived in China for years and he had never heard of it), but it's a title bestowed on the wives of Sifus. Really. And they can also be Tai Simo if they are married to a Tai Sifu or a Grandmaster. I made a video about this called, "Using the title Simo is harmful for Women in Martial Arts," and even now there is a woman who is in her thirties and likes to present herself as progressive who puts this title in her Twitter bio like it means a damn thing. Simos never have to set foot in a Martial Arts school or learn Martial Arts, and it is really given a lot of prestige for no reason that I can understand besides it reinforcing the patriarchy in Martial Arts culture. And for me personally, it's so galling because women with that title get more respect than I do, even though I actually have trained for years and can outdo most of their husbands. They get more respect than women who have trained a lot generally, I talk about this in my video, which I'm not linking because YT can be funny about links in comments.
My observation and experience is that these titles are used primarily to create groups and hierarchies which are hard to break, and are most likely to be given to those who are favoured, rather than those who most deserve it. They are used a lot for gatekeeping. I have many times made it clear I am not interested in titles, but the thing is, I feel like I get less resprct because I don't go around calling myself Grandmistress or something, it's so ridiculous. Grandmasters btw are mostly self declared; after all, who is going to appoint one? Another Grandmaster? My observation is that Grandmasters are Grandmasters because they convince people they are.
@@mattiethemongoose3rd Simo/shimu 师母 is just “wife of shifu”, it has nothing to do with actual training. Because you should regard your shifu as your own father in traditional Confucian thinking, you should regard his wife as your own mother too. Whether she trains or not is irrelevant. However, a female teacher would also be called Shifu and not Shimu, although in modern China most people would be more likely to use Laoshi as its not gendered
@@MonkeyStealsPeach I know that Simo just means wife of Shifu, the problem is the way it's used in the West. Perhaps you do not experience the awfulness of the hierarchies where you are, and I am certain you have no clue about how misogyny and patriarchy affects women in Martial Arts here. I have no teacher, I have been forced to learn on my own because of misogynist teachers, and the wife of the man who was supposed to be my Sifu has been very much involved in the problems. None of the people called Sifu I have known have been like you say they should be, and it's kind of ridiculous for any of these Simos to be like my mother. They are not like mothers.
@@MonkeyStealsPeach OK look, I get that if it works with men who are Shifus as you talk about in this video then Simo would mean something, but that's not how it is in the West. We only see the teachers or Sifus either at the school or at school events. Typically we would not go to the Sifu's house, the man who was supposed to be mine never usually told his students his address. The woman he was married to but separated from by the time I went to for lessons was in the school teaching and was trained to an advanced level before they separated. However, if she didn't teach and never learned none of her then husband's students would be likely to have ever met her. This other woman I talked about who has Simo in her Twitter bio, her husband used to teach in a very big school but does not teach in a school now, only online. She has been in a few of his videos but never spoke, and has never been in a position to or shown any interest in building up any kind of relationship with his online students. If he was still teaching in the school he used to teach in, or in a school where he lives now, and if she ever met any of his students, it might mean something, but it does not under the current circumstances and to put Simo in her Twitter bio in this case seems utterly ridiculous to me.
The teachers I have dealt with are very good at convincing their students to be loyal to them, but they are abusive too, and gatekeep for their own convenience, and the title Simo is used to make it seem like the best thing a woman can do in Martial Arts is to marry a Sifu, not to be good at Martial Arts herself. They certainly act like it's more important for women to marry Sifus than to be good at Martial Arts in their own right.
Baishi ceremony and teacher-student relationship is both one of the best things in CMA and one of the worst. I have so many good memories of dinning with my sifu and hearing the stories of his youth in China, when his student had his car stolen of a family member fallen ill, he would do something to help. Other stuff I've trained (boxing, muay thai, aikido, bjj) simply doesn't have this relationship, it is more of a client-costumer one.
But also, many teachers hide information, stall the student's progress, charge extras and act as cult leader thanks to that, all for "protecting precious knowledge and a millenar tradition", despite those secrets are easily learned in any MMA gym, in a much shorter time with much better training methods.
If you can learn in an MMA gym the same techniques and principles you have learned under your shifu that only says something about your style and your shifu, not about the world of gongfu. The body mechanics and details of how to utilize my body I have learned under my shifu are so vastly specific and different from anything you would learn in an MMA gym that I could never say something like this. It would not only be absolutely wrong, it would be an insult to say that. And I haven't even received a baishi and still have learned such fascinating and unusual principles of how to move and use my body in general, it is simply a COMPLETELY other world of how motion is perceived, thought, taught and practiced. It is so different and yet so genius that I benefit from this training in every other martial art and sport I do. An MMA gym doesn't teach me same things at all, they teach different stuff, which complements gongfu training, but it can't replace it even in the slightest sense.
To add, what you describe is more pertaining to the north who are more authentic Chinese where they are deeply entrenched in "li" (a prescribed Confucius protocol spelling proper behavior). Not so much in the south (or overseas) where "li" is more loose. So you can still pay your way to learn the skills while paying due respect to the Shifu without going through the ceremony. Just to clarify for those who may be confused thinking "baishi" is the only way to learn "real" skills.
One big happy fam with: first uncle,second auntie,third bro,fifth sis,sixth cousin's,all immidiate fam. Have a number in their rank seniority.
Cool, well explained as always :) It is difficult to explain just like you said and also very natural in away.
Thanks Nabil. It is hard to explain these differences between east and west clearly
Really good explanation, very similar to my experience.
Thank you for yet another great video. The material and explanation is as accurate as it can and should be.
I can only explain my experiences a long time ago. True your teacher is your teacher and a lot more. There were 2 classes of students. The open door students and the closed door students. The closed door they used Sifu. Open door it was the equivalent of mister it worked because the Chinese arts it’s a journey and not all
want to commit to so much time in their life and learning it for health and fitness as an open door student is fine.
I enjoyed a lot this comments 🥰 thanks a lot! ✨🙏
Thanks for sharing your thougths about the traditional relationship in Chinese martial arts community. Very enlightening words and very interesting images, indeed.
Hey, this is a great explanation of the subject. It's often pretty hard to convey this meaning in the west, where a lot of people like the title "shifu", and want a kind of military grade. I'll share your video to my own school !
Thank you, such a needed wake up call.
Great video, great explanation, great bridge between cultures.
I got my baishijie last year. My master really care differently since that. Both shifu and shimu. Shimu is my masters wife.
Very very interesting!!! Thanks for sharing!!!
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Great explanation. Thank you!
Duō xiè lǎo shī! Very precise and insightful explanation Will.
Pretty good explanation, Will!
Nice Vídeo, Thank You very much for sharing, Greetings from Santiago of Chile.
Very well done thank you
Excellent! 👏👏
Thank you for this eye opener. This view is lost in Martial Arts because of commercialization and everybody wear his title as Shifu or Sensei in japanese.
Very interesting! My shifu in Qingdao is trained in the a traditional family of mantis, yet views Chinese martial arts in a more modern way. Thus, no baishi ceremony. And yes, more of a family feeling.
Are you still in Qingdao? If so I live in Qingdao right now. I’m planning on moving soon though.
Great topic
This video was very useful for me! Thank you very much! I am from Russia. I agree that is is hard to use this names nowadays, but at least using 70 % of it will save Martial arts. May be someone will need this: 师父, 老师, 拜师, 入门.
There is a southern praying mantis school in Australia with Henry Sue as the main teacher called circular tong long. I don't know if you are close too them or not but it would be cool if you could check it out and do an interview with them if your able too.
this is just what I expected when saw the title. I was just taken as a disciple few weeks ago, and always have tough the same you just explain. My Shifu was in China, and when he came back last year he said that things should be different, should be more at the "chinese way", 'cos we're a traditional school, you know, so that commitment you talked about... that's the key.
Thanks a lot, I will use this video to show my students and martial brothers what is this about. Xie xie, Will, and amitabha! Cheers from Argentina!
Hello, Will! You have really interesting channel! Can you answer for my question? :) Should disiple ask for baishi or teacher offers it? Thanks
Hey! I asked my teacher on several occasions and it took him about 3 years to finally accept
In northern China at any rate, "shifu" is a generic term used for a range of professionals who work with their hands, such as a bus driver or capenter - you often get a country bus to stop where you want by shouting out "shifu, I want to get out!". Seems to me that "shifu" is rarely used by martial teachers in the north, who prefer "laoshi", but does get used in the south. Is this right?
That’s 师傅 not 师父, different word. You hear Laoshi used a lot because those people are more than likely casual students... as I said Shifu is a very personal term reserved for use when you become a disciple.
I like your sofa! :P
I’ve moved apartments since I filmed that
Great video Will, as usual 🙂 My experience starting my practice in Europe is similar to what you talked about. Westerners taking the "mystic" side of the martial arts and exaggerating them a lot.
I was also thinking about the term 师父, in my experience if someone is skilled at their craft you could call this person 师傅, have you encountered this?
Right, but as you know Chinese language derives its meaning from the character used not the sound. So while 师父 and 师傅 sound the same to a westerner, in Chinese there is no relation between these words. 师傅 is just a polite term to address someone who works with their hands such as a driver, repairman or chef.
@@MonkeyStealsPeach thanks for your reply. I have noticed in some performances where there are practitioners of different styles the narrator might present the performer with the term 师傅 after their name, as a polite way of introducing them. On another note, just out of curiosity, what is your view of people calling themselves "great grandmaster"?
I despise the word grandmaster. Somebody suggested I put it in my titles to be more clickbaitey, but I refused
I feel like the master-disciple relation stemmed from confucian tradition quite a bit: symbolic rituals, hierarchy, family, mutual responsibility and such
(btw 父 actually is the falling tone in standard mandarin)
Damn it! I still always mess up my tones
@@MonkeyStealsPeach Just say you're speaking a rare dialect.
Nice video! My Bai Mei Pai shifu does not have baishi publicly, it's a closed door ceremony. It is not a party or celebration, nothing special just give respect to ancestors and teacher, and swear that you are dedicated to lift and preserve the style. And this preserve the style can be a burden, it is mandatory, these are expectations en the responsibility is on your shoulders. In his live time he had only 5 students sworn in while he taught a few thousand of students at several schools. With baishi comes the gift of the book, you are allowed to copy painfully by hand.
Just to add a little more on the word "Sifu", which literally means "Master" in whatever skills, be it martial arts, cooking, brick laying, pottery, wood craving, repairs, traditional medicine, arts, music, even driving etc.. So it is OK and respectful to call highly skilled craftsmen, "Sifu" even if they are not your "teachers"...including calling China's bus, taxi drivers "Sifu", especially the older experience folks, a very common practice with the Chinese all over the world...Good job and well done. Cheers
That is 师傅 not 师父, already been discussed in comments below
@@MonkeyStealsPeach Thanks for pointing out.
😁😁😁
@@MonkeyStealsPeach By the way, you are really doing a great job, sharing the videos on all research, its history, its masters, of these martial arts, some little known, all over China. I am not from China and hence, my chinese is not really up to mark and with you explaining in English, is like wow, it is so enlightening. Thanks and keep up the great work. Cheers.
Laoshi in Cantonese is the same?
I don’t speak Cantonese, so I am not too sure how they would say it. Maybe something like Lo-si?
Laoshi in Cantonese is pronounce as “lou-si” (low-C). It means teacher but not as formal as shifu. Lou-Si can largely and most of the time refers to an academic teacher.
Great thanks a lot
More like relationship of a master of the art with a disciple
Great video. I'm not sure I can properly convey myself so I mean no disrespect. Do you see that process being lessened or ignored more often in the West due to the different cultural expectations interacting? Or to put it another way, if you find a reputable teacher is it something to ask up front about to know ahead of time or not?
I don't have experience in Chinese arts yet but my experience when I did traditional Japanese Swordsmanship was honestly hit and miss. It ended up feeling like the "relationship" didn't keep pace with my own growth both as a person and a practitioner. Leaving me leery of the whole concept as something else required in an implicit fashion to actually learn the "true" style/art beyond the paying for class and making time for class/personal practice while already juggling an adult life. I know that is probably a result of both my personal history and Western American biases but is something that niggles at me when I research or look at schools.
I’m not really sure how to answer you on that one. I mean I was sharing my experience in China and how the culture/society works there. It is a challenge how to keep the art “authentic” once it’s imported into a totally different society where people’s expectations and attitudes are different. That’s kind of what I was getting at at the end of the vid where I say it often becomes a kind of exoticism and a caricature of what western people think Asian culture is.
As I said in the video too, the Chinese way isnt about schools and classes, so I suppose if someone is teaching in that way then I suppose there is no need for the “something else required”. I’d be suspicious of a school doing that as it could just be about wanting some kind of extra payment
Monkey Steals Peach thanks for replying! I didn’t phrase it well but I think that really just hit it on the head when you reiterated the Chinese way isn’t school or class based and something that works for one approach may not and shouldn’t be forced into being a requirement within a different approach. Which is what always made me uncomfortable when an actual school and regular fee based instruction also brought up this extra baishi requirement. (Edited for detail)
So at the Jow Ga school I go to in the USA, they do use Sifu as a title, and explained to me that the assistant instructors you call "Sifu ___" and if you just say "Sifu" it is understood you are talking about "Sifu Sifu".
That same assistant instructor also told me about the father figure role in chinese culture, and that we don't do it to such a degree, but we are all in the Jow Ga family.
"Sifu Sifu" is a good male role model and he does invite the more dedicated students to closed sessions.
We don't have ranks, but if you learn all the forms on the list you get a black "instructor" sash. So yeah, we need a better title for assistant instructors.
There really needs to be a standard/ bodies of commissioners that set a standard.
Teachers have a history of where they come from.Then they discriminate there's always a reason why students don't move on.
To become masters, to watch a 'pure blood' move up get comfy in 6 months, while you've been there for 6 years.
To watch under the table deals and watch people move up , learn techniques that have been kept from you.
Sucks.
dislikes from people who introduce themselves as "Sifu Bill."
Seafood Bill