I love these GE vs EMD videos! I've been an engineer for CSX for many years that spanned the years into the Seaboard System era. During that time there was a dogs breakfast of power available and a consist could be anything from a U18B, GP16 (Uceta), U33B, GE slug and GP38-2 all lashed together making a run to Jacksonville. Guess what, they all rode like crap! During the years you mention early on railroads were strapped for cash. The unions didn't help the railroads, the government didn't help the railroads, trucking didn't help railroads or air freight. So there was a lot of deferred maintenance. Trackage was horrible. For all the SD40-2 fans out there, excellent loco but don't forget it's ugly duckling flop SDP40F sibling. That thing was a nightmare from what I heard Amtrak crews talk about out of Tampa Union Station and Wildwood. So as an engineer that has found my butt sitting in many different seats my favorite was the U18B! I loved that little locomotive doing locals. I really enjoyed running that locomotive more than any GP38-2 or GP40-2. As for why you don't see them around anymore like you do the 38 and 40; I haven't a clue. I like these discussions because of the opinions but the only real answers could come from the bean counters in upper management. Overall, every locomotive is about the same. I really liked NS and their rebuilding program on the SD70ACU and SD70ACC. I have only had the opportunity to sit in an SD70ACU once and that was a great ride. But the GE ES44AC, ET44AH, etc are excellent too. So it really comes down as a foamer, which locomotive you really aesthetically find pleasing. My pick will always be the GE Universal series! Maybe that's because they were my first love!!!
Enjoyed your comment it’s nice to hear from an actual railroad man on the subject instead of just foamer opinion lol. I became obsessed with trains as a boy during the “dog’s breakfast era” as you mentioned haha. My grandpa took me to the old B&O mainline near Youngstown Ohio and I remember the Chessie cats running with seaboard and B&O and C&O mixed in. I’ve always been an EMD man but I have to tip my cap to GE they definitely have sold the heck out of the Evolution series and the dash 8 and 9 before that. But you definitely see way more older EMD’s than GE’s it’s not even a comparison.
@@buckeyfan7623 I got into railroading because of my grandpa and a few uncles. My grandpa worked for the L&N and a few uncles worked for Illinois Central (Gulf) all out of Louisville. As a kid we would go over to the SLS (South Louisville Shops) and I got to see it all. My grandpa's favorite ride was the SD35. I only got to be in the cab once of an SD35 and that was during my conductor years. When Chessie and Seaboard merged the Chessie equipment I was in that was former B&O was excellent. I will concede that the GE locos were maintenance heavy if compared to EMD. But when I found myself running locals into Clearwater and St Petersburg the U18B was excellent. I preferred it over EMD 4 axle power. I was sad to see them go. I still love the sound of a 7FDL engine. But like anything it truly is nothing more than opinion. CSX runs a lot of GE power so I do enjoy getting to sit in something different on occasion. Now that I'm getting old, I enjoy the comfort cabs and the AC during those hot Florida summers! I hope you always find the kid in you to wave as the engines pass! I still blow the horn to anyone who waves!
@@bigvanillasmooth6772 Thats very cool you have quite a railroad history! I live near the A line in North Carolina so I’m sure you run some of the trains that come through here. I grew up close to the old SAL in Raleigh, unfortunately it was downgraded to secondary track when I was very young so I never got to see it in it’s hey day. And yes CSX is quite boring these days with the constant parade of GEVOS lol I always keep my eyes out for a 70mac I was happy when they decided to rebuild 25 of them. I’m a big fan of the tear drop windshield EMD’s. Also I’m glad they at least ordered 10 of the tier 4 70’s. Don’t they call the u18b’s baby U boats?
@@buckeyfan7623 The U18B is definitely known as a baby boat! I'm a big fan of the ACEs. BNSF from what I've heard doesn't allow ACEs to be used by train crews due to noise and the harshness of the ride. I was in Baldwin a few weeks ago and I was excited to see the FGAR has 4 of the old FEC SD70M-2 locomotives on their roster. I do enjoy the MACs and they are a great performer. I don't get much seat time in MACs anymore but here in the Bone Valley thet were everywhere. Both GE and EMD make terrific locomotives. Some models are better than others. I was a fan of the DASH 8-40C and when CSX got the first order I picked one up at Taft Yard in the "stealth" or "ghost" livery. That was one of my favorite liveries that CSX had and I'm not a fan of the box car logo. Back in the early and mid 80s I always enjoyed walking out of the yard office to a consist with a variety of paint schemes. Railroading is a good career.
EMD slowly went downhill after the GP40-2's & SD40-2's were discontinued while GE got real busy after the results that came out when the -8's & -9's were still in production.It's really debatable about how many EMD or GE rebuilds there are compared to factory units but mostly all active units right now are literally just GE. The EMD 567,645,and 710 series will be around for years to come but their time is limited on the railroads with any of the modern EMD units that are potientally at chance of retirement or being put into storage,not including rebuilds. Another thing to remember is that GE is cheaper than EMD which is why they're much more common. The EPA really put down EMD because their two stroke motors just can't pass these stricter emissions regulations and that's why many units were retrofitted with exhaust manifold silencers to remain active.GE being four stroke makes it much more easier but also better on fuel efficiency which is where the main focus is.The most dislikable notoriety about GE units is when their 7FDL's & 7HDL's catch on fire due to another incident of blown out turbochargers or crankshaft overpressure.Regardless,nowadays you would want only GE units due to absolutely incredible tractive effort and dynamic braking when serious tonnage and long grades are involved.Alot of EMD units don't reliably uphold those important features but they've somewhat retained at having traction motors that load quickly compared to many GE units,both DC & AC. EMD units have always been great for local jobs and switching,espiecally the MP15DC's/AC's which personally I highly favor and enjoy. Never the less GE has greatly been thriving in the locomotive industry,espiecally when Wabtec got involved and took control. EMD's glory days are long gone...It is what it is.The only legitimate business they have is any rebuilds along with still manufacturing the 567,645,and 710 motors for stationary and marine apparatus only.Caterpillar acquiring EMD & PRLX was good to keep them from going under but they too have faced serious pressure because of emissions regulations,so really it became another dead end.
Up until the early 1990's, EMD was definitely preferred (especially the SD40-2) for reliability reasons, but once the C40-8W became available, GE started to erase the reliability disadvantage. The current ES44 _Evolution_ locomotives are well-liked units, and all the major railroads in North America have fielded large numbers of them.
EMD began to go downhill once they discontinued the GP40-2's & SD40-2's from production,even though they will always remain for years to come.Almost anything else they built after that had nothing but problems here and there.Although,for road switching they did a really good job when the MP15DC's/AC's were debuted and even though they have long been removed from class one service they remnant numerously at alot of industries where switching is required.GE greatly improved once the -8's came out compared to the ugly -7's.The -7's had great tractive effort but all other things sucked about them.The -8's brought more horsepower,traction,and microprocessors which really began rivalry with EMD.Later on,at first AC traction with the addition of HTC R trucks on EMD units was great but GE once again took what they had and made it better. GE units have always had stronger traction motors and higher tractive effort,but they take too long when they have to load.With EMD,their traction motors actually load faster (Both DC & AC) but aren't great on longevity or traction. If you deal with mountain regions and serious tonnage,GE power is the way to go and their dynamic braking is incredible compared to nearly every EMD unit out there. If you have to be on the move quick or there is any local job and/or switching then EMD units are always great for that.In modern times the real advantage that EMD has retained is that their 567,645, and 710 series are some of the best motors ever built.GE's 7FDL's & 7HDL's have always been known with causing fires and blowing out turbochargers.Logically because their four stroke it's easy to pass any emissions testing and less fuel is consumed.The EPA is also what brought down EMD because their two stroke motors can't pass modern emissions testing.This is why exhaust manifold silencers were made.EMD should stick with stationary and marine apparatus where regulations are little to none because that's really where they can keep business going.Even with Caterpillar becoming their parent company,the EPA has brought them down as well. EMD's days of staying in locomotive manufacturing is dead.
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Another problem for EMD from the mid’70’s was the dismal build quality of units built in London. It got progressively worse through the ‘90’s when LaGrange production was stopped.
Don't care what anyone says!!! The SD70s are the best looking and sounding. Pretty awesome to watch both parts being put together all in one! Thank you AC.
I have a bit of an attitude toward GE. A while back, I can't remember the exact year but it may have been in the 90's, Jeffrey Immelt of GE took a grant of millions to keep US businesses afloat, but after receiving the grant Immelt shut down the division and moved it off shore. Our tax dollars went to fund business operations in other countries. I have been a straight EMD/Progress Rail fan ever since.
I hadn't heard that before but if there's any truth to it I can certainly understand your disdain toward GE. Thanks for watching and sharing your opinion.
I really liked this video. Im a huge fan of both Locomotive brands but I really do love the SD70Ace and the larger converted SD70 ACU those locomotives look so cool. Thanks for this great video.
I’ll say this, on GE’s they have scheduled oil changes whereas with EMD the oil only gets changed if there’s some kind of failure or if it becomes contaminated with the cooling water
The best locomotive manufacturer is the one who, when developing a state-of-the-art locomotive, also attaches great importance to the ergonomics of the driver's workplace. Of course there are legal requirements for the approval of a locomotive in the respective country and certain philosophies of the respective manufacturer who builds a locomotive. However, the workplace design is very important for the train driver so that he can also work well with a high degree of concentration and without tiring. How are the levers, switches and displays arranged? Do the displays glare at night? How are the ventilation, heating and cooling arranged. What is the seat like? How is the toilet designed? How loud is it on the locomotive when you drive the locomotive? Does the locomotive vibrate heavily? Does the locomotive also forgive operating errors by the locomotive driver? Is the locomotive easy to maintain when serviced in the workshop? Is the locomotive digitally networked with the manufacturer and the workshop? How does the locomotive react to faults? Can the locomotive automatically fix the faults itself? Can the train driver fix a fault quickly? Can the workshop or the manufacturer fix the faults remotely via the Internet? Every manufacturer of the locomotive and also the operator of the locomotive wants to make money. However, one should not forget the engine driver when redesigning a locomotive. Because currently through him you only earn the big money.
As a retired engineer, I will give you two views on it. Newer SD70s didn't ride well although they can pull. GEs will pull anything, but they are slow to accelerate. I did see more turbos go on the GEs, but they are generally reliable. Nothing beats the older EMDs. I will take an SD40 or GPs over anything that's new now. Just my opinion.
Many years ago I read those details about EMD and GE's. I also believe that GE finance helped kill EMD sale. I blame GM corprate for allowing it to have a 10 billion, yes I said billion dollar pension shortfall in the automotive sector so they startrd not putting money into EMD. GE just took over and ran with it. Buyer became nervous about buying new EMD's. I think GM sold EMD for around 2 billion dollars to a investment group before Cat cam along. Excellent video AC.
Thought you might be interested in this. I was watching one of those accident compilations and the first one featured a NS engine hitting a truck tractor and pushing it along the track. It was a 2-engine package, and the Wabash was in the trail position. Next video showed the Savannah & Atlanta in the lead hitting a tractor trailer. You may already know about this, but I thought you might want to know if not. This was posted sometime last year. Having been on the lead SP engine going about 30 mph when we hit a tractor-trailer on Long Point Road in Houston in the long ago, I can say it barely scratched the engine. Not sure about the S&A damage, however.
As an engineer of these two engines I've gotten mixed but all the csx guys love there ge es44s they just keep on moving and are tanks of the railroad idvsay om my expierence ge ultimately wins the day espiacally fir more modern standards that apply to today's Locomotives
Shame Superdave with NS isn't around on youtube anymore to get his engineer opinion. Dj'strains might answer the question since is still with CSX and has been 20+yrs now
I'm a locomotive engineer and I love the SD40-2, but the new GEs are the best locomotives out there today. I really enjoy the ride and pulling power of the ES44s. Never ran an ET.
I have always been a fan of GE and I wish they were selected to work with Brush Traction and used the technology of the Dash 8/9 in the Class 60 production. As the UK Class 60 would have been a more successful locomotive and a first for GE to venture into the UK in the 1990's. GE has made a UK Class 70 which sounds nice but its mainly EMD Class 66's that are working freight trains in the UK.
This is like asking me which of my kids do I love the most. Or Indian vs Harley Davidson. Or coconut cake vs coconut cream pie. Only answer I have is the same only different.
Being all old locos are EMDs, I figured GE locos are like Mercedes - after racking up miles, they are crazy to maintain epair so RR's toss them. Because the big RR's only own them for several years, they sell them eturn them just like Mercedes owners sell them and get a new one- just like GE locos.
Wabtec (GE) is the clear and obvious winner over Progress Rail (EMD) by a wide margin. Lower initial investment cost + Substantially lower fuel costs = A very easy decision for railroad locomotive purchasers. EMD may have a great history but that history also has great failures, consequential mistakes, and almost unbelievable corporate incompetency. It reminds me of the blunders of my personal favorite locomotive builder, ALCO.
Every engineer that I know that works for Norfolk Southern says that the GE is the workhorse of locomotives, if you notice BNSF from Kansas City West uses 90% of GE Locomotives because they will out pull the EMD’s when it comes to heavy loads and end those mountains headed west even UP Uses mostly GE’s going out west and CSX and Norfolk Southern I would say 75% of their locomotive fleet is GE’s so in my boat the GE’s must outperform the EMD‘s
Just because a fleet is 75% something doesn't automatically make it better. Like mentioned in the video, GE is a massive corporation and can incentivize the hell out of their product to sell more, and factor in providing their own financing department as well. Money talks and GE had that massive advantage for decades.
EMD had a very distinct disadvantage. Bad engine. It was made better by GM's big money but a bad design is a bad design. Yeah, in it's day the competition was worse. Cummins had a better design but could not beat GM until the later years because the solid idea would win out eventually. Caterpillar was a solid design for railroads and farm equipment but awful for trucks. Caterpillar would eventually improve too. GM doggedly stuck with the original Winton Engine through thick and thin. Yes the GM engine was great for it's day but would eventually lose to better designs and politics.
Ge engine blocks are cast iron, while emd engine blocks are steel from a machinist pov emd blocks are much easier to machine on emd specs are less tolerant than ge and emds in my opinion are work on because anything can be fixed on a emd if the customer has the money
The one thing GE had over EMD was the more robust electrical system. The GE dynamic braking circuitry was noticeably stronger than the Delco-Remy system. If an ALCO was leading an F3 the F3 was likely to cut out when they were pulling at 900+ amps. Translated, But for the problematic 244 engines, ALCO was able to be the better choice for railroads in that era.
I personally think EMD is the best because if you look around, there are GP9s and even F7s out there in freight service on short lines with their original engines and they were built in the 1950s yet the oldest GE you’ll see out there still in revenue service is most likely a D7 And you can’t do a EMD, GE comparison without mentioning break downs or major mechanical issues, while yes EMD Seems to have more electronic issues their engines run way better for the most part. Yet you have GE, I can’t even count on one hand the amount of GE Locomotives I’ve seen with fire damage, yet I can count on one hand the amount of EMD locomotives I’ve seen with fire damage We also can’t forget about that one UP GE that exploded I think last year or so, and the most I’ve seen from EMD is a dynamic brake fan shooting out of its casing, there most likely has been worse from EMD but I haven’t seen it so I can’t really say for sure Another reason is GE is cheap, their locomotives seemingly weren’t made to last, they were made to rack and profit. But EMDs have stood the test of time but at the cost of being expensive. To praise EMD a little more here, there was this one time where me and some friends where foaming up in Duluth where CN runs very heavy trains, mainly ore trains. and me and my friends went to a spot that was on an upgrade, and this train had 3 EMDs upfront with a lot of or cars behind then and the train was so heavy that it was literally moving less than 3 mph past us in notch 8 and we even heard on the radio the crew saying “ I don’t think we’re gonna make it” but those EMDs proved them wrong and kept going even though they were damn near close to stalling But obviously both companies have their ups and downs and it’s still a very hard decision but personally I think EMD is better but GE still makes very good locomotives
EMD had a great reputation but kind of lost its lead with the questionable 645-20 engine on the SD45's, which were major fuel guzzlers and had issues with crankshafts breaking.
Well...from a train chaser for many years,I see a lot of SD-40 2s,SD-50s,and GP-38s......what I dont see are the supposed saviour Dash 8s or ANY U-boats. I travel all of Pennsylvania,N.J.,Dela Md,Va. Like both companies.....but just saying
Politics son, Politics. The CAFE standards was created to ruin GM, The manufacturer of very large things, Trains, Earth Movers, Trucks, Buses, pickups and cars. GM did not make clown cars so now the clown car manufacturers are now the big guys.
EMD is far superior to garbage engineering. Not only are EMD's classic, but you can still see F units and SD40's running today. Garbage engineering could never make a locomotive like the F units or SD40's.
I am so very tired of these debates about these two bilders!builders! Companies make excellent units and if you take care of them and keep them well maintained, they can last a lifetime! These debates must stop. I'm not going to compare one to the other. I like both Companies, and I like both locomotives they both look good and they sound good .and, they get the job done.
The traction motors just use the available power generated by the prime mover/alternator. If the diesel engine generates 4400 hp, that's the max power that'll go into the traction motors, minus some loses from power conversions.
From personal experience with the latest GE ES series and the EMD 70M-2/Ace series... GE swung and hit while EMD swung and missed with the garbage always failing computer systems.
Ha lol let me be crystal transparently clear once again one last time🤦🏽♀️: I don’t want anyone else’s supposed to be husband or husband or anyone else’s supposed to be man, nor do I wants to share somebody else’s supposed to be husband or supposed to be man!! Somebody is all in their head and thoughts with that, wrong lady for that!!💯🤔#realtalk Please get right and in order!!…
@spacecalander probably why Norfolk southern has rebuilt many of theirs into AC and has plans of many more to rebuild. I seen around 500 units is the plan according to the locomotive roster for NS
@@freedomfan4272 they don't do anything to the motor. They just convert it to SC traction and put gevo cabs in them that shake and rattle because there not meant to be on a D9
All EMDs built in the last 20 years are complete trash. GE builds a much more superior product. They're more reliable, comfortable, quiet, and they don't smell of piss like every single SD70ACe I've spent many hours in. BNSF, and this is true, has a General Order that the SD70ACe motors are not allowed to be lead locomotives on trains, and yes that is fact. The last G.O.A.T. EMD built is the SD40-2... It all went downhill after that.
The only good parts about most EMD units is that their traction motors actually load faster than any GE units,but tractive effort and reliability isn't as high as GE. AC traction for a short time was better from EMD with HTC R trucks on the early SD70 series,but GE still overthrew them and proved why they were better. EMD's 567,645,and 710 series are more reliable than most of their units that will fall apart inevitably. Even though GE's 7FDL & 7HDL motors have been famous for catching on fire,these are modern times and they easily are tier four compliant and make more power while saving more fuel because of being four stroke.EMD was destroyed by the EPA once regulations became more serious because two stroke has heavier carbon footprint.At some point all that will probably be left of EMD would be the GP40-2's & SD40-2's with the addition of the MP15DC's/AC's which are actually decent road switchers. EMD has been dead for twenty years if not more.They are better off nowadays with stationary usage and tugboats.
@@rastewart100 75is do what you want them to do. the only shitty thing is the dynamic brake doesnt really kick in til 5 ish. m-2s drop their load all the time going uphill, loud as hell, uncomfortable, wheel slip alarm all the time
![[GL][T-273] EMD vs GE: SD70ACe vs ES44AC (Part 1) | Trains 21](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/_f4IDubK77I/mqdefault.jpg)
I love these GE vs EMD videos! I've been an engineer for CSX for many years that spanned the years into the Seaboard System era. During that time there was a dogs breakfast of power available and a consist could be anything from a U18B, GP16 (Uceta), U33B, GE slug and GP38-2 all lashed together making a run to Jacksonville. Guess what, they all rode like crap! During the years you mention early on railroads were strapped for cash. The unions didn't help the railroads, the government didn't help the railroads, trucking didn't help railroads or air freight. So there was a lot of deferred maintenance. Trackage was horrible. For all the SD40-2 fans out there, excellent loco but don't forget it's ugly duckling flop SDP40F sibling. That thing was a nightmare from what I heard Amtrak crews talk about out of Tampa Union Station and Wildwood. So as an engineer that has found my butt sitting in many different seats my favorite was the U18B! I loved that little locomotive doing locals. I really enjoyed running that locomotive more than any GP38-2 or GP40-2. As for why you don't see them around anymore like you do the 38 and 40; I haven't a clue. I like these discussions because of the opinions but the only real answers could come from the bean counters in upper management. Overall, every locomotive is about the same. I really liked NS and their rebuilding program on the SD70ACU and SD70ACC. I have only had the opportunity to sit in an SD70ACU once and that was a great ride. But the GE ES44AC, ET44AH, etc are excellent too. So it really comes down as a foamer, which locomotive you really aesthetically find pleasing. My pick will always be the GE Universal series! Maybe that's because they were my first love!!!
Enjoyed your comment it’s nice to hear from an actual railroad man on the subject instead of just foamer opinion lol. I became obsessed with trains as a boy during the “dog’s breakfast era” as you mentioned haha. My grandpa took me to the old B&O mainline near Youngstown Ohio and I remember the Chessie cats running with seaboard and B&O and C&O mixed in. I’ve always been an EMD man but I have to tip my cap to GE they definitely have sold the heck out of the Evolution series and the dash 8 and 9 before that. But you definitely see way more older EMD’s than GE’s it’s not even a comparison.
@@buckeyfan7623 I got into railroading because of my grandpa and a few uncles. My grandpa worked for the L&N and a few uncles worked for Illinois Central (Gulf) all out of Louisville. As a kid we would go over to the SLS (South Louisville Shops) and I got to see it all. My grandpa's favorite ride was the SD35. I only got to be in the cab once of an SD35 and that was during my conductor years. When Chessie and Seaboard merged the Chessie equipment I was in that was former B&O was excellent. I will concede that the GE locos were maintenance heavy if compared to EMD. But when I found myself running locals into Clearwater and St Petersburg the U18B was excellent. I preferred it over EMD 4 axle power. I was sad to see them go. I still love the sound of a 7FDL engine. But like anything it truly is nothing more than opinion. CSX runs a lot of GE power so I do enjoy getting to sit in something different on occasion. Now that I'm getting old, I enjoy the comfort cabs and the AC during those hot Florida summers!
I hope you always find the kid in you to wave as the engines pass! I still blow the horn to anyone who waves!
@@bigvanillasmooth6772 Thats very cool you have quite a railroad history! I live near the A line in North Carolina so I’m sure you run some of the trains that come through here. I grew up close to the old SAL in Raleigh, unfortunately it was downgraded to secondary track when I was very young so I never got to see it in it’s hey day. And yes CSX is quite boring these days with the constant parade of GEVOS lol I always keep my eyes out for a 70mac I was happy when they decided to rebuild 25 of them. I’m a big fan of the tear drop windshield EMD’s. Also I’m glad they at least ordered 10 of the tier 4 70’s. Don’t they call the u18b’s baby U boats?
@@buckeyfan7623 The U18B is definitely known as a baby boat! I'm a big fan of the ACEs. BNSF from what I've heard doesn't allow ACEs to be used by train crews due to noise and the harshness of the ride. I was in Baldwin a few weeks ago and I was excited to see the FGAR has 4 of the old FEC SD70M-2 locomotives on their roster. I do enjoy the MACs and they are a great performer. I don't get much seat time in MACs anymore but here in the Bone Valley thet were everywhere. Both GE and EMD make terrific locomotives. Some models are better than others. I was a fan of the DASH 8-40C and when CSX got the first order I picked one up at Taft Yard in the "stealth" or "ghost" livery. That was one of my favorite liveries that CSX had and I'm not a fan of the box car logo. Back in the early and mid 80s I always enjoyed walking out of the yard office to a consist with a variety of paint schemes. Railroading is a good career.
EMD slowly went downhill after the GP40-2's & SD40-2's were discontinued while GE got real busy after the results that came out when the -8's & -9's were still in production.It's really debatable about how many EMD or GE rebuilds there are compared to factory units but mostly all active units right now are literally just GE.
The EMD 567,645,and 710 series will be around for years to come but their time is limited on the railroads with any of the modern EMD units that are potientally at chance of retirement or being put into storage,not including rebuilds.
Another thing to remember is that GE is cheaper than EMD which is why they're much more common.
The EPA really put down EMD because their two stroke motors just can't pass these stricter emissions regulations and that's why many units were retrofitted with exhaust manifold silencers to remain active.GE being four stroke makes it much more easier but also better on fuel efficiency which is where the main focus is.The most dislikable notoriety about GE units is when their 7FDL's & 7HDL's catch on fire due to another incident of blown out turbochargers or crankshaft overpressure.Regardless,nowadays you would want only GE units due to absolutely incredible tractive effort and dynamic braking when serious tonnage and long grades are involved.Alot of EMD units don't reliably uphold those important features but they've somewhat retained at having traction motors that load quickly compared to many GE units,both DC & AC.
EMD units have always been great for local jobs and switching,espiecally the MP15DC's/AC's which personally I highly favor and enjoy.
Never the less GE has greatly been thriving in the locomotive industry,espiecally when Wabtec got involved and took control.
EMD's glory days are long gone...It is what it is.The only legitimate business they have is any rebuilds along with still manufacturing the 567,645,and 710 motors for stationary and marine apparatus only.Caterpillar acquiring EMD & PRLX was good to keep them from going under but they too have faced serious pressure because of emissions regulations,so really it became another dead end.
Up until the early 1990's, EMD was definitely preferred (especially the SD40-2) for reliability reasons, but once the C40-8W became available, GE started to erase the reliability disadvantage. The current ES44 _Evolution_ locomotives are well-liked units, and all the major railroads in North America have fielded large numbers of them.
EMD began to go downhill once they discontinued the GP40-2's & SD40-2's from production,even though they will always remain for years to come.Almost anything else they built after that had nothing but problems here and there.Although,for road switching they did a really good job when the MP15DC's/AC's were debuted and even though they have long been removed from class one service they remnant numerously at alot of industries where switching is required.GE greatly improved once the -8's came out compared to the ugly -7's.The -7's had great tractive effort but all other things sucked about them.The -8's brought more horsepower,traction,and microprocessors which really began rivalry with EMD.Later on,at first AC traction with the addition of HTC R trucks on EMD units was great but GE once again took what they had and made it better.
GE units have always had stronger traction motors and higher tractive effort,but they take too long when they have to load.With EMD,their traction motors actually load faster (Both DC & AC) but aren't great on longevity or traction.
If you deal with mountain regions and serious tonnage,GE power is the way to go and their dynamic braking is incredible compared to nearly every EMD unit out there.
If you have to be on the move quick or there is any local job and/or switching then EMD units are always great for that.In modern times the real advantage that EMD has retained is that their 567,645,
and 710 series are some of the best motors ever built.GE's 7FDL's & 7HDL's have always been known with causing fires and blowing out turbochargers.Logically because their four stroke it's easy to pass any emissions testing and less fuel is consumed.The EPA is also what brought down EMD because their two stroke motors can't pass modern emissions testing.This is why exhaust manifold silencers were made.EMD should stick with stationary and marine apparatus where regulations are little to none because that's really where they can keep business going.Even with Caterpillar becoming their parent company,the EPA has brought them down as well.
EMD's days of staying in locomotive manufacturing is dead.
I don’t think you can go wrong with either of these Manufacturers. Thanks to Rob for Sponsoring your last two (2) videos and for Serving 🇺🇸 our Country. 👍🙏
Very good and informative. Your 'speedtalk' narrative is clear and understandable, and your voice pitch was easy on the ears.
The SD70ACe looks the best to me. The squared off nose, the huge radiator, the sound, the K5LLA Horns they can have, just makes it look amazing.
Spend 12 hours in one and you'll think otherwise...
I work for BHP, in Rail, we still use SD70ACe locomotives, that's all we use now. We got rid of the AC6000's, SD40's and the -8's
As a railroader, i appreciate these videos! great work and the information is very accurate!
Another problem for EMD from the mid’70’s was the dismal build quality of units built in London. It got progressively worse through the ‘90’s when LaGrange production was stopped.
I worked a number of times at ALCO POWER in Watertown NY
What a Plant !!
My all time favorite locomotives are SD40-2s but as far as today’s units I love the big GEs! I amazed at what they can pull!
Before the video starts i just wanna say that ge makes my absolute favorite locomotives, them and alco
Don't care what anyone says!!! The SD70s are the best looking and sounding. Pretty awesome to watch both parts being put together all in one! Thank you AC.
I have a bit of an attitude toward GE. A while back, I can't remember the exact year but it may have been in the 90's, Jeffrey Immelt of GE took a grant of millions to keep US businesses afloat, but after receiving the grant Immelt shut down the division and moved it off shore. Our tax dollars went to fund business operations in other countries. I have been a straight EMD/Progress Rail fan ever since.
I hadn't heard that before but if there's any truth to it I can certainly understand your disdain toward GE. Thanks for watching and sharing your opinion.
That was during the Obama years which he was buddy buddy with Obama
I really liked this video. Im a huge fan of both Locomotive brands but I really do love the SD70Ace and the larger converted SD70 ACU those locomotives look so cool. Thanks for this great video.
I’ll say this, on GE’s they have scheduled oil changes whereas with EMD the oil only gets changed if there’s some kind of failure or if it becomes contaminated with the cooling water
The best locomotive manufacturer is the one who, when developing a state-of-the-art locomotive, also attaches great importance to the ergonomics of the driver's workplace. Of course there are legal requirements for the approval of a locomotive in the respective country and certain philosophies of the respective manufacturer who builds a locomotive. However, the workplace design is very important for the train driver so that he can also work well with a high degree of concentration and without tiring. How are the levers, switches and displays arranged? Do the displays glare at night? How are the ventilation, heating and cooling arranged. What is the seat like? How is the toilet designed? How loud is it on the locomotive when you drive the locomotive? Does the locomotive vibrate heavily? Does the locomotive also forgive operating errors by the locomotive driver? Is the locomotive easy to maintain when serviced in the workshop? Is the locomotive digitally networked with the manufacturer and the workshop? How does the locomotive react to faults? Can the locomotive automatically fix the faults itself? Can the train driver fix a fault quickly? Can the workshop or the manufacturer fix the faults remotely via the Internet? Every manufacturer of the locomotive and also the operator of the locomotive wants to make money. However, one should not forget the engine driver when redesigning a locomotive. Because currently through him you only earn the big money.
As a retired engineer, I will give you two views on it. Newer SD70s didn't ride well although they can pull. GEs will pull anything, but they are slow to accelerate. I did see more turbos go on the GEs, but they are generally reliable. Nothing beats the older EMDs. I will take an SD40 or GPs over anything that's new now. Just my opinion.
Awesome show AC, EMD For me ,i did notice their is sill a lot of SD 40's.
Plus the EMD Prime mover sounds awesome .....just saying .
Many years ago I read those details about EMD and GE's. I also believe that GE finance helped kill EMD sale. I blame GM corprate for allowing it to have a 10 billion, yes I said billion dollar pension shortfall in the automotive sector so they startrd not putting money into EMD. GE just took over and ran with it. Buyer became nervous about buying new EMD's. I think GM sold EMD for around 2 billion dollars to a investment group before Cat cam along. Excellent video AC.
An ACe sounds way better in my opinion. Be nice if GE would do a refresh of their locos. Same style since 1970s.
Glad to see you back in the swing of things AC!!
Thanks AC I am waiting to see what CAT does they are trying to up the game
Thought you might be interested in this. I was watching one of those accident compilations and the first one featured a NS engine hitting a truck tractor and pushing it along the track. It was a 2-engine package, and the Wabash was in the trail position. Next video showed the Savannah & Atlanta in the lead hitting a tractor trailer. You may already know about this, but I thought you might want to know if not. This was posted sometime last year. Having been on the lead SP engine going about 30 mph when we hit a tractor-trailer on Long Point Road in Houston in the long ago, I can say it barely scratched the engine. Not sure about the S&A damage, however.
EMDSD70ace will always be my favorite locos
EMD for me,,,and sound so good
As an engineer of these two engines I've gotten mixed but all the csx guys love there ge es44s they just keep on moving and are tanks of the railroad idvsay om my expierence ge ultimately wins the day espiacally fir more modern standards that apply to today's Locomotives
Thanks Mr enclopedia AC. If to see old power look to Hoboken terminal or seacauaes NJT main line
Great channel bro! Enjoy your knowledge! Thanks!
Shame Superdave with NS isn't around on youtube anymore to get his engineer opinion. Dj'strains might answer the question since is still with CSX and has been 20+yrs now
I'm a locomotive engineer and I love the SD40-2, but the new GEs are the best locomotives out there today. I really enjoy the ride and pulling power of the ES44s. Never ran an ET.
I want to see Cowl Unit Modern Day EMD & GE locomotives.
2 minutes in--thanks for the NS heritage units! so cool!
NS and NCDOT have gotten the 710 to T4 now but it requires DEF which means its unlikely to see use outside of yard and shortline use.
I know an NS engineer who prefers GE, he says their quieter and grip the track better.
I really like these EMD Vs GE Series . Like the EMD's a little more then the GE imo.
I always wonder is this your Bike in the Video AC ?
Yes. It was at the time.
Does EMD still exists? Or GE is ruling the entire locomotive market?
EMD still exists under Caterpillar/Progress Rail
@@Trains21 thank you very much for informing this.
I have always been a fan of GE and I wish they were selected to work with Brush Traction and used the technology of the Dash 8/9 in the Class 60 production. As the UK Class 60 would have been a more successful locomotive and a first for GE to venture into the UK in the 1990's. GE has made a UK Class 70 which sounds nice but its mainly EMD Class 66's that are working freight trains in the UK.
This is like asking me which of my kids do I love the most.
Or Indian vs Harley Davidson.
Or coconut cake vs coconut cream pie.
Only answer I have is the same only different.
Being all old locos are EMDs, I figured GE locos are like Mercedes - after racking up miles, they are crazy to maintain
epair so RR's toss them. Because the big RR's only own them for several years, they sell them
eturn them just like Mercedes owners sell them and get a new one- just like GE locos.
GEVO says hello
Wabtec (GE) is the clear and obvious winner over Progress Rail (EMD) by a wide margin. Lower initial investment cost + Substantially lower fuel costs = A very easy decision for railroad locomotive purchasers. EMD may have a great history but that history also has great failures, consequential mistakes, and almost unbelievable corporate incompetency. It reminds me of the blunders of my personal favorite locomotive builder, ALCO.
Excellent capture my friend like and Greetings
Every engineer that I know that works for Norfolk Southern says that the GE is the workhorse of locomotives, if you notice BNSF from Kansas City West uses 90% of GE Locomotives because they will out pull the EMD’s when it comes to heavy loads and end those mountains headed west even UP Uses mostly GE’s going out west and CSX and Norfolk Southern I would say 75% of their locomotive fleet is GE’s so in my boat the GE’s must outperform the EMD‘s
Just because a fleet is 75% something doesn't automatically make it better. Like mentioned in the video, GE is a massive corporation and can incentivize the hell out of their product to sell more, and factor in providing their own financing department as well. Money talks and GE had that massive advantage for decades.
GE is definitely top dog these days, not in the 80,s EMD was top dog.
EMD had a very distinct disadvantage. Bad engine. It was made better by GM's big money but a bad design is a bad design. Yeah, in it's day the competition was worse. Cummins had a better design but could not beat GM until the later years because the solid idea would win out eventually. Caterpillar was a solid design for railroads and farm equipment but awful for trucks. Caterpillar would eventually improve too. GM doggedly stuck with the original Winton Engine through thick and thin. Yes the GM engine was great for it's day but would eventually lose to better designs and politics.
AC, what are the power units being used in the new class 69 in the UK. I believe Progress Rail are doing the upgrade process
I would like to see the T4ś compared
I don't care what nobody says about the sd70ace.i like these girls.ge may have beaten them, but I will take the sd70 aces any day!
I am no expert, just a YUGE GM fan.
EMDs sound better at run 8 and lasts longer
My favorite is EMD always
Ge engine blocks are cast iron, while emd engine blocks are steel from a machinist pov emd blocks are much easier to machine on emd specs are less tolerant than ge and emds in my opinion are work on because anything can be fixed on a emd if the customer has the money
The one thing GE had over EMD was the more robust electrical system. The GE dynamic braking circuitry was noticeably stronger than the Delco-Remy system. If an ALCO was leading an F3 the F3 was likely to cut out when they were pulling at 900+ amps. Translated, But for the problematic 244 engines, ALCO was able to be the better choice for railroads in that era.
Great video AC enjoyed
Do all locomotive builders have a set standard for the gearing the traction motors, do all locomotives pull the same
The sd70ace does has 4300 but tier 3 has 4500
Oi foamer chill your shit
@@Mcnibbus woah dont swaer
AC it says on Wikipedia that BNSF ordered 23 SD70ace....Im not sure if they are tier four units or not. What do you know about em?
Probably tier 3 credit units but it would be sweet to see tier 4’s
@@michaeldennis9063 Very much true
You'll still see 60 year old or more GP9s running; while 40+ year old Geeps and SD40-2s are everywhere. That says all you need to know really.
Doesn’t really say much actually. Because EMD isn’t what it once was. Sorry.
Trains are so efficient at moving cargo that they should get a pass from the epa, they dont evin account for a whole percent of pollution
You have a awesome point. I agree😅
EMD go Brrr
I personally think EMD is the best because if you look around, there are GP9s and even F7s out there in freight service on short lines with their original engines and they were built in the 1950s
yet the oldest GE you’ll see out there still in revenue service is most likely a D7
And you can’t do a EMD, GE comparison without mentioning break downs or major mechanical issues, while yes EMD Seems to have more electronic issues their engines run way better for the most part. Yet you have GE, I can’t even count on one hand the amount of GE Locomotives I’ve seen with fire damage, yet I can count on one hand the amount of EMD locomotives I’ve seen with fire damage
We also can’t forget about that one UP GE that exploded I think last year or so, and the most I’ve seen from EMD is a dynamic brake fan shooting out of its casing, there most likely has been worse from EMD but I haven’t seen it so I can’t really say for sure
Another reason is GE is cheap, their locomotives seemingly weren’t made to last, they were made to rack and profit. But EMDs have stood the test of time but at the cost of being expensive.
To praise EMD a little more here, there was this one time where me and some friends where foaming up in Duluth where CN runs very heavy trains, mainly ore trains. and me and my friends went to a spot that was on an upgrade, and this train had 3 EMDs upfront with a lot of or cars behind then and the train was so heavy that it was literally moving less than 3 mph past us in notch 8 and we even heard on the radio the crew saying “ I don’t think we’re gonna make it” but those EMDs proved them wrong and kept going even though they were damn near close to stalling
But obviously both companies have their ups and downs and it’s still a very hard decision but personally I think EMD is better but GE still makes very good locomotives
EMD had a great reputation but kind of lost its lead with the questionable 645-20 engine on the SD45's, which were major fuel guzzlers and had issues with crankshafts breaking.
Seems long distance mainlines run GE but on shortlines even on major railroads run emd older locomotives
emd is the best motor out there and the new motors are having a lot of problems w the def units
For me it is EMD'S all the way.
want is the difference ES44AC and the ES44c4
ES44C4 is a NS rebuilt ES44AC. NS likes to rebuild a lot of their units like their AC44CWs to AC44C6Ms. Just something NS does
@@TyDeSimone I believe you mean their standard cab and wide cab Dash 9s rebuilt to AC44C6M. NS never ordered any AC44CWs if I recalled
@@TyDeSimone The ES44C4 is an ES44AC with only 4 powered axles. BNSF has them NS doesn't have any
Emd is best
sd70ACe are 3rd greatest diesel locomotive in america es44ac isnt in the list
Well...from a train chaser for many years,I see a lot of SD-40 2s,SD-50s,and GP-38s......what I dont see are the supposed saviour Dash 8s or ANY U-boats.
I travel all of Pennsylvania,N.J.,Dela Md,Va.
Like both companies.....but just saying
Ge all the way
Just look at the sales. If you can’t figure out which is better there’s no hope for you.
6:07 name of loco
EMD is better. Change my mind. Go ahead, il wait.
No need to. You are indeed correct
70+ % market share by GE/Wabtec. That is all the explanation you need!
@@stephenbroughman3231 doesn't change the fact that their locomotives are shit and have a ton of problems
@@ReadingAreaRailfan you’re referring to EMD right? 😉
@@AnontheGOAT no, pretty sure I said GE 😁
Politics son, Politics. The CAFE standards was created to ruin GM, The manufacturer of very large things, Trains, Earth Movers, Trucks, Buses, pickups and cars. GM did not make clown cars so now the clown car manufacturers are now the big guys.
Your right your no engineer !
Neither are you, troll.
You’re*
You’re*
EMD is far superior to garbage engineering. Not only are EMD's classic, but you can still see F units and SD40's running today. Garbage engineering could never make a locomotive like the F units or SD40's.
If it is garbage engineering, then why does GE/Wabtec have 70+ percent market share. You are just stuck in the past!!!!!
@@stephenbroughman3231 politics son
@@billdurant3560 oh boy here come the excuses 🥴
@@AnontheGOAT yes you are full of them for sure. You must have the good drugs
@@billdurant3560 Yours are better than mine in this case.
I am so very tired of these debates about these two bilders!builders! Companies make excellent units and if you take care of them and keep them well maintained, they can last a lifetime! These debates must stop. I'm not going to compare one to the other. I like both Companies, and I like both locomotives they both look good and they sound good .and, they get the job done.
EMD's sound better and that's undisputed.
Doesnt the train horsepower depend on the trains traction motors instead of the engines?????? The traction motors is what houses the horsepower.
The traction motors just use the available power generated by the prime mover/alternator. If the diesel engine generates 4400 hp, that's the max power that'll go into the traction motors, minus some loses from power conversions.
Horsepower is not the most important thing on a locomotive, tractive effort (how much you can pull) is what you're looking for.
EMD makes better looking locomotives unlike GE now owned by Wabtec
There is very little difference in the appearance of both.
I live the emd sound
@@stephenbroughman3231 can hardly tell them apart unless you are a rail fan
Main difference is the nose. And GE’s looks better IMO.
@@AnontheGOAT the hood units seem to be better looking
according to you that both have been around a long long time then the one, GM, has been around way longer makes it better.
From personal experience with the latest GE ES series and the EMD 70M-2/Ace series... GE swung and hit while EMD swung and missed with the garbage always failing computer systems.
Ha lol let me be crystal transparently clear once again one last time🤦🏽♀️: I don’t want anyone else’s supposed to be husband or husband or anyone else’s supposed to be man, nor do I wants to share somebody else’s supposed to be husband or supposed to be man!! Somebody is all in their head and thoughts with that, wrong lady for that!!💯🤔#realtalk Please get right and in order!!…
Dash 9s are junk. lol
True
@spacecalander probably why Norfolk southern has rebuilt many of theirs into AC and has plans of many more to rebuild. I seen around 500 units is the plan according to the locomotive roster for NS
@@freedomfan4272 they don't do anything to the motor. They just convert it to SC traction and put gevo cabs in them that shake and rattle because there not meant to be on a D9
All EMDs built in the last 20 years are complete trash. GE builds a much more superior product. They're more reliable, comfortable, quiet, and they don't smell of piss like every single SD70ACe I've spent many hours in. BNSF, and this is true, has a General Order that the SD70ACe motors are not allowed to be lead locomotives on trains, and yes that is fact. The last G.O.A.T. EMD built is the SD40-2... It all went downhill after that.
The only good parts about most EMD units is that their traction motors actually load faster than any GE units,but tractive effort and reliability isn't as high as GE.
AC traction for a short time was better from EMD with HTC R trucks on the early SD70 series,but GE still overthrew them and proved why they were better.
EMD's 567,645,and 710 series are more reliable than most of their units that will fall apart inevitably.
Even though GE's 7FDL & 7HDL motors have been famous for catching on fire,these are modern times and they easily are tier four compliant and make more power while saving more fuel because of being four stroke.EMD was destroyed by the EPA once regulations became more serious because two stroke has heavier carbon footprint.At some point all that will probably be left of EMD would be the GP40-2's & SD40-2's with the addition of the MP15DC's/AC's which are actually decent road switchers.
EMD has been dead for twenty years if not more.They are better off nowadays with stationary usage and tugboats.
The SD70ACe models BNSF have blacklisted from leading are from the first run of them, which do not have isolated cabs. The 9300 series IIRC.
sd70m-2s are the worst. GEs are junk. 75is, sd40s, and gp9s are the last good ones left. *speaking from experience*
Could you elaborate on your opinion of the 75is vs the m-2s?
@@rastewart100 75is do what you want them to do. the only shitty thing is the dynamic brake doesnt really kick in til 5 ish. m-2s drop their load all the time going uphill, loud as hell, uncomfortable, wheel slip alarm all the time
@@benjlar1902 Ok interesting, Thanks
ford and Chevy? try again.
It's not GE anymore. It's Wabtec.
Ya but the locomotive division of Wabtec is still called GE. Therefore the models are still called GE XXXX.
Does EMD still exists? Or GE is ruling the entire locomotive market?