SBMM in Single Player w/ Sony's New Patent!
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- SBMM in Modern Warfare 3 is one of the worst parts of the game. Imagine if that came to single player too. Not just CoD but any campaign game on PS5! Sony's new SBMM patent seems to indicate this may one day happen.
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I can't imagine having to fight an army of bunny hopping John Wick's armed with diamond haymakers, modded controllers, $2000 headphones, and an elite gamer chair just to beat the tutorial.
The “data” that SBMM retains player mostly comes from a few studies done for games that have SBMM and how they improved player retention. They’re quite old focusing on Halo Reach,TF2, Counter Striker, league of legends, and rocket league. But once your start digging into the systems you see the flawed thinking, the games that were studied had good SBMM systems and most modern SBMM are at an apocalyptic level of bad.
What were the differences between the old and the new systems?
@@micckeymol4396most old systems like chess decide that the only measure of skill was that a player could win, but didn’t care how or even how well you did to win. Went 1-17 but what on the winning team well you must have done something right. Went 24-0 on the loosing them a well you must have done something wrong. Used the worst set up imaginable and still won you must have done something right, use the best setup imaginable and still lose then must have done something wrong. Sat in the kill box with a shotgun and got one kill and won by one kill, who care what the crybabies think you won that’s what mattered. They pushed player of similar skill together, but didn't bias them selves by dictating what metrics define skill beyond can win. You might encounter a player who skills don't really counter yours very well or vice versa keeping things a bit more dynamic while also keeping players who are more suited to play together together. Granted this will vary a lot from game to game, COD has the massive disadvantage of being very quick and pushes some extreme reflexes for performance and theirs not to much you can do other then brute force grind out those reflexes "git gud" which makes is far more sensitive to problems when you have some really high skill players that effectively becomes untouchable to the majority of your player base.
I think it's moreso that those games actually get better when you fight people who are the same skill as you. EG rocket league is boring af if your opponent is worse than you, and just frustrating if they're a lot better than you.
COD is more interesting when the enemy team is a mix of good and bad players. The mechanics just don't hold up for higher level competitive play. EG the kill streak system is made basically obsolete if everyone is the same skill level, and most weapons are completely unviable if everyone is as good as you. So forcing you to play as hard as you can each match just deletes a lot of the cool stuff about the game.
SBMM only improves the experience in competitive games with a lot of depth. COD is more of a chill-party-game but with some skill elements. It's not good as a full competitive game.
Do you know where we can find these studies?
The problem is all the studies assume SBMM exists in a vacuum and that the only players who quit a game do so in a fit of rage during a match.
So for instance, if they reduce playlist variety to improve skill matches. A lot of people might get bored and quit a game due to lack of playlist variety. But they probably aren't going to rage quit in the middle of a match. So as far as the data is concerned, playlist variety has no impact on player retention.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with a dynamic difficulty slider. For instance, Left 4 Dead has a dynamic difficulty slider, which gave you an easier or harder challenge based on how well your team does, which made the game feel different every time you played. Resident Evil games also give you more or less ammo based on how well you do.
Do they know that dynamic difficulty already exists? They definitely can't patent that because other games already use that.
I'm probably sure I'm in a simulation, and SBMM has been heavily implemented.
My job has SBMM
@@sej3113isn’t that good?
Also bhaisaab you’re not in a simulation lol
@bobdarrick2628 😂 No, because the harder I work the more work they give me.
@@sej3113 but the more money/pay off. And I was thinking they would rank your ability with the workload they give you, so if you’re not that good u don’t have to do much. And when u improve and are better, then it’s only fair for u to do more I guess. Which as long as they pay u more, that won’t suck - that will be fine or even good.
Dynamic difficulty has been done for a long time and is a good thing in general
One of the most elemental things in games is that you want the ideal difficulty for the player where he is in "Flow", meaning not too high and not too low but sometimes dipping in both
If its too easy or too hard the game becomes unenjoyable, so finding this ideal middle ground is a key thing for majority of games.
Didn’t we get this in Left for dead where the AI would increase or decrease pickup and mob density based on how well the player was doing? The idea being that the game was better when the player was on their toes, but generic stat slider balancing wouldn’t work as it wouldn’t compensate for the variety of different players and their way of playing.
Probably why left 4 dead hold up so well.
Modern Mario Kart (both multiplayer and single player) dose something similar where it calculates your drops not by random but by weighting your position and distance from first or last trying to keep the races from becoming blowout and keep player on their toes.
Their is also a indie side scroller (single player and multiplayer) where the loosing players get power up and not the winning players, and trying to keep players on their toes by not letting things getting to far apart.
And of course some looter are putting together that garbage RNG is never fun and increases the rare loot chance the longer your go with out it(again making it easier if you go to long with out power).
You know now that we think about it these systems seem rather standard and common part of game design.
this sounds pretty cool as a OPTION along side the standard easy normal hard difficulties. sometimes the hardest difficulty in games isn’t enough
Well sorry to burst your bubble but since RE4 adaptive difficulty has been in games and it has never been optional.
Its not going to be optional
fully agree. also nice to not have to worry about difficulty. as long as there are zero pay2win elements this could be abused to push the player towards, i'm fine with it as an "automatic difficulty" option.
@@trashaimgamer7822 good thing RE isn’t hard lol
Not sure how I feel about this.
I think in principle it could be good providing there is transparency and players have a choice on it to enable it or not.
It could add more challenging gameplay and/or boss fights to those who are interested.
If players don’t get a choice, then it’s a dogshit idea lmao
Have you ever played re4 that game already did this.
i actually agee very much with this
dynamic difficulty has been a thing for a long time. just look at the original resident evil 4. It had a system very similar and has been praised for it for years
L4D did something like this back in 2008 but some people will still somehow make this a COD conspiracy theory
Difficulty adjustment has been in single player games for a very long time.
that sounds pretty cool actually. They would never force this, as the trend in their own games is to allow more and more difficulty customization by the player (for example TLOU2 accessibility options). Adding this as an option would be actually great, imo
I just won't game anymore. They're basically turning your genuine experience into an addictive, up & down rollercoaster. Aka gambling. It's not a game if there is something manipulating the outcome. RIP gaming.
Right! If I wanted to gamble, I'd go gamble!
If SBMM comes to single player games I'm probably throwing in the towel myself
Your aware games with dynamic difficulty already exist if you like re4 og that game already has it left 4 dead had dynamic difficulty 0
@@habijjj I legit had no idea. Whatever happened to selecting your own difficulty? Why should dynamic difficulty exist in the first place? Serious question.
@@Islander1975 To be fair if RE4 and L4D didn't have it one would be a cake walk even on the hardest difficulty, and the other would get repetitive real quick. In RE4 both original and new it looks to see how you're doing and gives ammo and health items based off it, in L4D it's how many special infected or hordes you will get each run as well as placements of said zombies along with guns, and healing items.
Dynamic difficulty has been a thing for years. Even PS2 games like Ratchet and Clank had adaptive difficulty where less health crates spawn the better you do and more health crates spawn the worse you do and the sequel Going Commando also added/reduced enemy spawns based on your performance. As long as you can continue to play single player games offline, there really shouldn’t be any issues (I know unfortunately offline gaming is dying for no reason)
Not to sound like I’m raining on your parade but this doesn’t sound entirely new. Fun fact the original Spyro on the PlayStation 1 had something similar where if you were doing really well in the game and it was too easy the enemies would actually be more difficult it’s really interesting
Dynamic difficulty doesn't inherently sound like a bad idea, but it really shouldn't be patented
This has actually been a thing for a very long time, Resident Evil 4 on GameCube did this.
Difficulty Adjustment has been in Resident Evil since like 2005.
What happened to the good ol' days of choosing your difficulty and playing offline at your own pace?
Only time I like this 'idea' is with Left 4 Dead's director, where it's dynamic and fun. Maybe we can be optimistic
7:32 You hit the nail on the head here. Real difficulty change is forcing you to engage situations differently. To continue your Souls-like comparison, regardless of how large a boss' health bar gets or how much harder they hit, the attack timings, windows to counterattack, etc. are still the same. A true change in difficulty would be tweaking patterns of attack and windows for evasion.
Strangely enough, CoD campaigns manage difficulty like this decently well. Enemies get more accurate, more aggressive, will throw back uncooked grenades...
Love ya Drift0r. Good video
Video games like RE have done this for years idk why it’s a huge deal now
This isn't really anything new. Multiple games over the years have made the game easier or harder depending on your in game performance like Resident Evil dropping more health and ammo when you get hit and die a lot.
But that's deterministic, thus equal for everyone and works the same a decade later as it does on release. The difficulty adjustment is then part of the game, not something that's tied to you as a person through Bill Gates's profile on you.
Thing is we already have difficulty settings right so why do we need a system like this? I don't dislike it as much in Single-Player games if its implemented properly but that's difficult to do well. Similar to SBMM in MP games, some games have SBMM systems that actual work decently but then you have games like CoD and Overwatch. If they intend to get rid of difficult settings though entirely for a system like this though that would kill many games in my opinion.
Driftor played Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing! No shot! I was just talking about that game the other day. I give Mavis Beacon credit for being the most useful video game I have ever learned how to play. Every person in my class learned how to type with Mavis Beacon our 7th greade year. Every time I see somebody pecking away on their keyboard with one finger on one hand, I think to myself that this person needed Mavis Beacon. I was at like 72 wpm at the end of the class. That ain't bad, I'm a gifted gamer tho so I took to it like a challenge
I saw that transition 👀 Good stuff Drift0r
I would hope that it would be an option in the difficulty settings instead of it being forced on you. It sounds cool if implemented correctly but only time will tell.
Because making games sweaty every single match makes people want to stay. Makes sense.
I would wait before crying.
RE4 did have an adaptive difficulty.
And Sony games like Horizon, SPIDERMAN, GOW etc are kinda “fair” on max difficulty.
You can always tank 1 attack and there are too many checkpoints, which is a very good thing IMO.
And finally, it’s not PvP, so the system should help the player’s Flow.
This can be good if done properly and would be an option in difficulty section. Last month I was playing two games with very bad difficulty scaling and it wasnt fun to play to the point that I just abandoned one of these games.
Theyre trying reeaaaaaalllly hard to receive a suspicious package in the mail.
This is just fear mongering 'cause you didn't know this feature has existed before in past video games, not even Sony specific ones too. It was generally there to protect lower skilled players by lowering the challenge while still giving higher skilled players an engaging experience. The only new thing about this patent is the fact that this is getting processed through a server, and it would certainly suck if this gets used as an excuse to make more single-player experiences require an online connection.
If it's optional, then it would be very easy to spin it as a good feature. It's like the Apple slowing down iPhones thing that eventually ended up as a lawsuit (necessary for some devices to prevent random shutdowns).
Difficulty in general is both a hard game design issue (watch the video essay) and a complex cultural issue (internet outrage, diverse playerbase, etc.). I want game studios to at least put thought into designing the difficulties and don't resort to the trivial solution of scaling up/down enemy stats.
2:17 "A lot of companies patent things and then don't use them"
I'm looking at you WB Games! They patented the brilliant Nemesis system and only used it in Shadow of Mordor and its sequel. They aren't currently using it and they're preventing other studios from using it. A cool gameplay feature is just collecting dust. Maybe it will be used in Wonder Woman, but who knows?
It depends.
if you make it a matter of applying more tactics that should be ok, but if you just make it a more tense "first one to shoot and hit wins" kind of deal....
Driftor, you are blowing this out of proportion. L4D and B4B have made dynamic difficulty in a similar realm. This is most likely an option on the console or the game as an accessibility feature, allowing flexibility for every player instead of the standard easy medium hard. They will not force you to use this feature as you have zero proof of that claim. I can guarantee this won’t be forced.
Interesting - I wonder if this will make programming more efficient. Let’s say easy mode has certain variables and parameters developers have to account for, and medium mode has another set of parameters, and hard mode yet another set of parameters- maybe with new technologies you can leave all that out, saving time and money and resources. Idk just thinking aloud here
As long as its a toggle itll be fine. Forza has a kinda skill based system. If you are winning races by a large amount it will be like "you're easily winning its time to increase the difficulty. Would you like to increase to X for and extra 25% credits".
But you get to chose. If its a locked sbmm for single player i probably wont even both ahjng the game.
This is wild
What’s the option of easy normal and hard then ?
I couldn't think of a WORSE idea. I like to challenge myself and start on highest difficulty and work my way down if need be. If I can't work my way down... I don't play game.
WHAT IS THE WORLD COMING TO?!
Bro never played single player games... Adaptive difficulty has been a thing since RE4.
I can only imagine veteran mode in call of duty being super rough now if it goes through. Imagine having to sweat in single player 😂
Most likely veteran is already going to be the difficulty cap the only harder thing is realism and that difficulty is a whole nother thing entirely.
I remember CoD4 and the never ending spawns. You had to push up to a point or they would not stop coming on the hardest difficulty. Was so proud of myself to get through hell. Even bragged to my friends about beating mile high club super fast.
I think what might be frustrating or rather sad is if you’re looking for a challenge, and you take a bit of a beating while you git gud so the game automatically bumps you down.
SOG/Muta has talked a lot recently about DRM free games, or why owning physical copies matters, but at the same time half games you have a disk for force you to go online to play/update before u can play..
It's kinda messed up, we don't own games when bought online only, we rent them. and if its a game that relies on online jsut for single player, or mut;iplayer, it may become unplayable after the server for the SINGLE PLAYER GAME go offline.
Making me value my retro/physical games/game consoles of past (ps3 and before) even more
Online connected single-player / campaigns with true AI driven NPC's that dynamically respond to your play style will be cool eventually... the stuff today and this patent sound like dynamic "how good is the NPC's aimbot?" sliders. I welcome the idea of dropping into a warzone like setting with hundreds or thousands of autonomous AI drive NPC's responding tactically and working together against us...
imagine they can not just heal each other but repair and build / upgrade and deploy battle tactics against you in real time... they will be better then us! sounds fun to me, let's just keep that in games and not just help create Skynet lol
This is a lot like the EOMM Activision and EA have patented for single player and PVE games.
This is only for the MP side, but they're so full of it saying SBMM retains players. Older titles did NOT have it, and when I used to look on say Blops 1 I'd see like 400k players online at it's time of release on 1 platform BTW before crossplay. And it stayed around that till the next CoD came out. And I know it had zero SBMM cause I sat on over a 4KD and 3 W/L and never once did I sweat, and ya know what? The players didn't just leave.
Anyone saying it's good for retention just know I left and all my friends cause 1: they suffer because if I do well now they gotta fight those kinda players and they are not like me. They don't got a competitve bone in their bodies, and 2 no one wants every match to feel like 1mil is on the line. Every few matches is fine, but back then if I wanted to sweat I did GB matches.
I thought it would be used the opposite way. It will lower the difficulty in incremental steps for everyone to make sure the game never becomes too challenging. This will allow bad players to set the difficulty to hard, then the game can secretly decrease it to regular or recruit to make them think that they're really good can keep them playing longer. obvi I dont know what Sony is thinking, but that was my first assumption when I read the title
That would be my thought too, seems ridiculous to do it any other way, it would push customers away from their games
i got a feeling sony only did this to stop others from doing it. i doubt they would impliment it. well if they did they would probably give you the option to have dynamic difficulty but in all honesty i wouldnt put it past sony to trademark/copyright something just to stop others having it
Honestly I really like this. Not because I like SBMM, but it adds an exploratory space to create more dynamic single player video games. Obviously if there is only one scaling difficulty that’s bad, but I don’t think it would be very widely implemented. And if it was, i don’t care I just won’t play/buy the game. I think there’s a negative connotation to SBMM that feeds into the bias against the patent. I’m glad someone is trying it. Single-player games often suffer from feeling “samey” which impacts replay value, so being able to reduce that could make for a better single player experience
I have no issue with this as long as there is a traditional difficulty select such as easy, medium, hard, and dynamic. Or a way to disable it entirely. It could be a fun option
I don't actually have an issue with games readjusting their difficulty on the fly if I'm just stomping through the game, but it needs to be an option not always on
This is ridiculous. SBMM may actually bring back arcades since that would be a more organic experience.
SBMM IRL moment
I would think this would be an option like easy medium hard. It would be a cool option to start out a single player game easier and have the game scale with you
I think it's going to be more option based for SP games similar to the director mode that you've discussed in Left 4 Dead.
I'm not super concerned about it to be honest.
This is why I like FromSoftware design philosophy, especially with Elden Ring.
One difficulty: Hard
But there are multiple ways in which you can lower the difficulty i.e. leveling, items, weaknesses/resistances, etc.
If this is "increase enemy healthbar" difficulty, I am terrified.
There's nothing more fun than a game with bullet sponge enemies, Sure loved gotham knights.
You can do basic math right? Your own second states disproves your first statement. If has a massive curve of setting depending on how much your grind.
I don't think it'll be a problem. People might just be calling it SBMM for clicks when it's just a dynamic difficulty slider and there's no point for game developers to force people to use it in single player games because that will just hurt everyone whereas actual SBMM hurts some, but helps the overall playerbase.
At this point they can keep their games for themselves, honestly. Getting REAL sick of this bs.
There are games that already scale difficulty this one specifically uses servers. Re4 og has dynamic difficulty.
I dont mind the option for this. I remember playing Ghost of Tsushima.The highest difficulty was too hard but the second highest was too easy. So idm an option that will bascially be in-between those 2
These developers & corporations are so scummy & annoying like what world do we live in ? Whats wrong with letting your consumer chose their difficulty like games have done for eternity
It’s not the devs or corporations it’s the government requiring it in the games.
I think it would be cool if it had an analysis for how you play and breakdowns of your playstyle
I wonder if video game data would be useful to sell to other companies. Could be an incentive
Adaptive difficulty has been in games since the original Resident Evil 4. It's hardly a new patent. It is very obviously in the RE4 remake as well.
So they just made scaling difficulty with more steps? Now if they can just make some games I want to play.
This doesn't seem new. I remember Resident Evil 4 (2005) had a similar feature where the sturdiness of enemies would adjust based on how well you were doing.
Overwatches matchmaking literally turned me off of the game. My friends and I wanted to try a new multiplayer game couple month’s ago when they played by themselves it was fine when we partied up instant sweats. We were all brand new to the game we got steamrolled every match. We quit and never looked back, I swear developers have no idea what’s going on because if they did they would put these terrible match making algorithms in place.
So I’m gonna have to buy a second system reverse boost, then go to the campaign that hopefully has co-op just to enjoy my campaign!
While SBMM has literally NO place in COD public matches for the reasons you and Ace have articulated ad nauseum - all of which are completely valid in my opinion. However, I think this system could be useful in single player games. I literally don't play them because they are boring as heck. If they were more of a challenge, they might capture my attention. This is so long as the implementation is done correctly. I think this dynamic difficulty should only be implemented at the player's option or on the harder settings.
If they want to have a monopoly on this travesty and sue everyone else for SBMM in single-player games, fine by me! That would be patents working for good for once.
Jokes aside, I already dislike dynamic, unspoken difficulty adjustments in games. Died a little when I saw a recent video demonstrating it in the Ratchet and Clank trilogy. But at least that can be written off as difficulty change that is deterministic, equal for everyone, and doesn't follow you from one game to another as a person. SBMM in single-player completely muddies the water for what it means to beat a game. Imagine if people ran around saying they had climbed Mount Everest, and then they meant they only got halfway up.
Imo the issue isn't that it exists, the issue is whether or not you'll be able to disable it. Like I could see some players enjoying an "ultra hardcore" single player difficulty, but it should be optional, not forced.
So this is how liberty dies. With thunderous patents...
Actually I think this is cool as hell. As long as it is an option you can enable anyways. I would love it if games would cater to your skill in the moment.
We're all at the same skill level Jerry
Ive seen stuff like this before. In multiplayer sounds annoying but ive no problem with dynamic difficulty in single player games
Good stuff❤
Ahhh so this is the stuff Johnny Silverhand was warning us about...
The only bad part is it gathering data but also kinda good cause rhen if games use dynamic difficulty like normal the patent wont effect them.
I just woke up & now I see this I'm going to bed
The only thing I care about is choice. As long as you can choose it as an option it will be fine. But on the same token, why not just do what other games already do and just let you change the difficulty in-game? It feels like they are trying to get rid of player choice in many other apsects by making tailored experiences designed to keep you "hooked" in other ways, so i hope it doesnt become that
So one of Sony’s game which is mlb the show has a dynamic difficulty mode and that’s completely an optional difficulty setting over there when playing against the cpu
I like the idea, but this needs to have a mandatory toggle for this feature.
Resident evil has dynamic difficulty since Resident evil 4 so i dont see why this is being blown out of proportion
I partly disagree with the first argument.
The chill, player vibe is the one way of looking at it, but the other is developers intentions.
The system like this could be easily used for making sure that the player is experiencing the game as it was intended. And it is something that is important in a piece of art. If the artist wants the game to be challenging (from example in a survival or horror game) the system lik this could ensure that.
But like I said - I’m only partly convinced by that because it’s obvious that in the hands of companies like EA, Activision etc. it could also be used simply for players retention. To make the game always challenging and with that - keep the player in it.
I get that from the business side of things (I’m a bizdev in a small gamedev studio myself) but my trust for the ethical use of new technologies in big companies has been greatly challenged in the past few years.
Resident Evil 4 did this but offline way back in 2004
Hold on, the real question is:
Will AI have some safe spaces?
This isn't new or scary. Dynamic difficulty adjustment has been a thing for years.
A lot of games use dynamic difficulty scaling. Examples being you die and some enemies dont spawn in again after a couple attempts.
I can't remember what game it was (doom possibly) where any one hit will never kill you out of nowhere. You'll be down to 1 hp and die from the slightest next touch so that you don't just get unexpectedly ganked.
The difficulty level of many games (easy, normal hard etc) adjusts the impact these systems can have.
Dynamic difficulty was a huge point of contention when the souls games and their cousins were getting poor reviews from media because they were too difficult
OSRS Tutorial Island about to be much harder...
This is going to boost my interest in classic games only. That's it.
They really know how to kill my love for video games huh... I'm trying to get a refund from Battlenet as there's many problems on my end that cease to get fixed and the game is near unplayable (packet burst, 3 day voice ban lasting 40 days) not being able to get streaks or communicate has ruined my love for cod.
I only play RPGs on easy-mid difficulties. I like to hone in on the progression and exploration rather than challenging myself in crazy battles. I like relaxing man. If I die in Skyrim to a random bounty hunter I usually rage quit. If I was getting super challenged all game long Id probably just quit the game all together.
Those who play god of war will break controllers with the Valkyries.
EA has been doing this in NHL they have an adaptive difficulty setting.
Players-“Remove SBMM”
Companies-“Add SBMM to single player got it”
I hate honestly that they keep adding online to single player we all know why so they can make more money off us!
Adaptive difficulty has exiszed since the og RE4. It's hatdly a new thing. It has nothing to do with "online".
As an additional concern, bout to put on the tin foil hat. How much you wanna bet that SOME companies will use this tech to further dive into mobile game territory.
They see you're doing well and amp difficulty by an insane amount, then when to die, you're greeted with a "BUY THIS LEGENDARY TO PERFORM BETTER" Screen, or something of that sort. Smh
There is already stuff like this out there in games like RE4/dead space remake
People can tell very fast if they're being manipulated in games
Hey drift! I know that music isn't your thing but I'd like to suggest " disarm" by smashing pumpkins
When people see you before they see you rigged
This literally only really affects people who are super good at games, but the average player doesn't have to sweat in SBMM
U mean in Singleplayer or in general?