Obviously the other design is going to work better as the bucket fills because the separator is outside of it, and yours shares the same volume. Give yourself the same space above to create something and it'll inherently work much better.
Compared to my current set up of ZERO dust collection, either of these will be a godsend. I'm certainly not going to worry about a few grams here or there. Both methods beat my broom.
I have a fair amount of experience with cyclonic separators. One aspect that is often not seen is the importance of the diameter of the cyclone. Separation is achieved in a cyclone by centrifugal force, the smaller the diameter of the cyclone, the faster the cyclonic action, increasing the amount of centrifugal force, and therefore achieving a higher amount of separation. Cyclones are smaller on the bottom to increase the separation force as the solids drop within the cyclone. The difference in density of the materials being separated also has a huge effect on the separation efficiency. Increasing the efficiency of a simple cyclone like the Dust Deputy would best be achieved by utilizing a longer, more exaggerated cyclone chamber, or a second cyclone that is longer and smaller in diameter in series with the first.
I know this is an older video, but well done with the tests. It scales to any size Dust Deputy they make. I too toyed with creating my own separator, needing to use a full size metal trash can. I needed 6" hose connections for my Grizzly G0944 dust collector system. After much research I came to the same conclusions and wound up purchasing the Oneida Super Dust Deputy XL. The main advantage is it utilizes the full capacity of the can it sits on without performance degradation as it fills. The bottom of the DD is just a simple funnel to the can and the can is not part of the cyclone action, just a collection bin. That plus not having to build it from scratch spending time and materials, is why I found it better to just spend the money on the Oneida (it is not cheap - $240). It works great for me.
Thanks for sharing your experience! When I made this video there were already a lot of DIY dust collector videos and I was curious how they stacked up. I'd already purchased a Dust Deputy so I wanted to see if I was missing out. The DD is relatively inexpensive and works better than both DIY options presented, so in my view it's a better option. Better to spend the time building something more useful that you can't buy instead.
I just got a Dust Deputy and to prevent the bucket from tipping and make sure the vacuum and bucket stayed together to make it easier to move, I built a small plywood cart. Essentially a rectangular box with holes in the top to fit the vacuum and bucket with wheels under it. It's simple and effective.
I did much the same... a wall bracket to hold the Super DD XL I have. It is very stable and just the right space under to slide a can beneath for change out (a couple simple wedge spacers to lift it up the final 1/2" so I can strap & seal the top that is mounted to the bottom of that shelf).
try using a second bucket for the cyclone, this way you can mount it above the collection bucket instead of being inside the bucket, that's why the dust deputy works with the bucket near full, because it does all the work above the lid, really the dust deputy wouldn't save space compared to making your own out of a bucket because it's still tall.
I would like to see a rebuild with your design outside of the bucket. It would mean sealing the outer ring, but with both dust collectors outside, you would have a better comparison.
I have a thien baffle dust collector that is vented outside and I find that when I quickly vacuum up a pile of sawdust a small amount of the sawdust goes outside. But if I'm vacuuming up stuff at a slower more even pace, the separation efficiency increases. I'm happy with the performance of the thien baffle. Mine is along the lines of the April Wilkerson conversion of a HF dust collector.
I ran into the same thing setting up for the tests. The first thing I did shove the hose into a full bucket of sawdust to see what would happen. Both systems get bogged down pretty quickly that way, but that's not really a very accurate test! I think the smaller pile of sawdust is a reasonable compromise between a real-world scenario and a repeatable test. Thanks for watching, cheers!
great methodology for testing. if I could put my 2 cents in here: you proved that as long as you keep the bucket mostly empty, it is very efficient. with that fact in mind, to empty the bucket often can be a key factor to efficiency. I have done 3 different videos on making an easy emptying bucket to my vac system (less than 10 seconds to empty) so I never let my bucket fill up. I am of the opinion that if you want an efficient dust collection, emptying the dust bucket needs to be a menial task. I have also found that I still need to clean the vac filter periodically (yearly), just not as often as I would have to without a cyclone. the fine dust still gets to the vac (& filter) and clogs up eventually. great follow up video :>)
Good video! I went with a deputy style unit much cheaper version though Ill build a better one soon. Rather than placing it on top of the lid I submerged it half into the bucket to make it less bulky.. ran PVC pipe to a Eureka vacuum motor also on the lid. works great mostly for metal dust and particles. I think you could improve the DYS baffle if it were much thinner and the intake driven directly from the wall side rather than curve into the tank. Also, it would help if you had about a foot of straight intake tube before entering the tank and perhaps heat/reshape inside end flat against wall, They all do a decent job picking up chips but it's the stuff that you don't see that kills you, the last small percentage. Dust particles larger than 100 microns will fall back to earth quickly. I would spend the money on a good washable filter that stops 3micron particles that suspend in the air indefinitely. And the most.. "bestes" filter is opening the garage door. I'm mostly regurgitating info. from the one and only Bill P. if you want an education of collecting rare dust .. his place is the one... believe his son runs it now...... billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm had the pleasure of writing him a couple of times.
let's see... the cyclone action of the dust deputy is outside the collector, the diy version has it inside the collector. could it be that this has something to do with everything? ... maybe?
I was thinking the same thing. Its not strictly a like for like comparison. Interesting results. I suspect if you used the DIY version with the baffle in a 2nd upturned bucket your results would be better still.
Just a thought if you really wanted to make it work when the bucket was fuller. Adding slots ie louvers to the bottom third of the opening in the baffle or just below it. Would reduce or eliminate the saw dust being sucked back up. Since the negative pressure created by the vortex suck it up at an angle that the louvers will prevent. But a cautionary note, if the louvers are to high they will interfere with the flow of the vortex, that would make it worse not better. BTW, Since I was considering doing the same basic thing to a trash can. (But I was going to use the 1st method you mentioned where baffle with attached an extended center outlet pipe.) So this proved what I suspected already so thx for testing it out. And for small container it would make more sense for most ppl. To add Thein baffle to the top the bucket with a more efficient tangential.
That would probably be a smart idea if I had the room for it. 5 gallon size is as big as I am gonna go with my current shop and I am still very happy with the Dust Deputy. Thanks for watching, cheers!
Its not bad. Its not the biggest its the middle size one I dont know how many gallons off hand. I normally empty it when about 3/4 full and I have it on wheels to move around the shop.
One thing I noticed about your test is that your home made one would of done better if your bucket was almost full to the bottom of the wood. I think a fair test would be to have the sawdust about a third of the way down, and then test. As the bucket fills up, it will pull the sawdust into the vac because of the bucket being full.
Nice comparison but something isn't right. The Dust Deputy will be more efficient for every particle size so you must not be weighing all the dust captured. The DD should be in t he 97%-99% efficiency range by weight for most sawdust. Also, everytime you recycle the dust you are capturing the larger particles and sending the smallest, most unhealthy particles into the air. So, by the end the cyclones should be capturing a higher % by weight than when you started. If you use fresh corn starch for every test then you should get a more realistic comparison. If you use a tangential inlet I believe your Thien baffle will provide much better efficiency for fine dust. Thanks for posting your design and tests. Every test brings new insights.
Thanks Tony, I may consider doing something like that in the future. Might also be good to do a rubber-meets-the-road type test with making a set number of cuts on the table saw and see what happens.
@Trey Gowdy actually, a few % points is very significant. For example, a cyclone that captures 86% will pass almost 15x more dust than one that captures 99%. That means you have to empty your vacuum and clean your filter 15x more often. It seems like it's not much but if you look at it in terms of the % of dust that is passed instead of the % collected it becomes much more intuitive. BTW, you should be able to vent outside with just the dust Deputy without mods. It captures 98+% of the dust (by weight) so only the finest dust passes through. Make sure the outlet isn't near an area where air gets sucked back into your shop.
Only 1 detail I would bring up, I'd call it 50% full when the dust level is 50% of the way to the baffle on the DIY version, not with only 2" left, I'd call that 90% full. So, the DIY version would be perfect if you had a larger or taller bucket like a 30 gallon barrel etc. That is what I plan to build.
wish I had made a video, but I used my dust bucket to vac up the dust from a large concrete and cinder block job.. I probably got about 150 lbs of dust, mortar, and small chunks of blocks, and while the filter in the shop vac was pretty dusty, it was still doing a fair job ..next to nothing made it to the vac... mine just has a vac port on top, and the hose from my old house vac, with its inlet port from the vac cut into the side of the bucket..i screwed it down to a cheap wooden cart from harbor freight, and drilled some holes in the wood to hold atfachments.. also works great on my blast cabinet! if anyone is thinking about making one, give it a shot! I spent about 12 bucks on my whole setup and it does amazing!
One thing to also note here is that what the Dust Deputy gains in efficiency, you also loose in height and shop space. I'm building a small dust collection system to go right under my compound miter saw cabinet and will use my POS Home Depot shop vac (the one with the nice detachable blower..yet a dust barrel that is virtually impossible to empty out because of its folds and lip) - And because of the 40" height restriction of my saw cabinet I'm purchasing a 20 gallon plastic drum (30" tall x 19.5" dia.) with snap lid that I'll build the Thein baffle into. And then I'll just dump it whenever it reaches ~8 to 10 gallons.
Sounds like that will work well for the space you've got. Throwing out another idea: what if you constructed a square box to hold the sawdust instead of a round barrel? Might help you eek out that extra bit of space.📏
I'd thought of that but luckily the plastic food container barrel will fit nicely and costs $30. A custom box would cost at least $50 in materials and maybe a day of work. Im in San Diego, we have a store called Drums and Totes (may be a national chain) and you can get really nice stuff from 15 gallon up to 55 gal. or more.
I also enjoyed your tests and use two similar bucket collectors in my shop attached to 2 1/4" hose shop vacs. For the money, it seemed worthwhile to buy the Dust Deputy. I needed a shorter collector to dedicate to my tablesaw and stow under the extensions, thus the Thien baffle was a better solution. Also like the lower profile because it is sturdier and more stable than the taller cyclone. Am pleased with both and the Dust Deputy captures most of the dust dedicated to my bandsaw. Wish the inlet and outlet ports on the cyclone were sized a little larger to closer match my vac hose and was wondering if there is much loss in airflow volume and ability to capture dust at the inlet from a bandsaw or sander.
Christopher (7 MONTHS AGO ) from what I know the best you can do is to collect the dust as close to where it begins meaning producing dust covers anywhere you can nearest the production of dust. I cut the covers of my band saw to place pipe just beside the bottom guide rollers and even though it does not grab all the falling dust I think it sucks up most of the fine air particles out my garage wall as I don't use a filter for the large unit. The difficult machines to work with are the chop saw or table saw as they throw dust volume hard and fast.. you need big air to gather all that dust properly. My unit 4in pipe 1hp motor will grab the first few seconds on a chop saw then dust starts to override the vacuum strength as the dust air flow begins a pattern. it's difficult to make a good dust cover for a chop saw but what a difference without my air machine especially with MDF boards.
Nice series of tests. I enjoyed both videos. Question: What's the point of dumping the sawdust onto the floor? It seems you could have simply sucked it out of the container. By dumping the sawdust onto the floor, there's a greater chance that all the sawdust might not be vacuumed up -- which could affect your test results. (In the first video, it appeared in one of your tests that a portion of the sawdust was trapped under the cord of the vacuum and remained on the floor.)
Glad you liked the videos. I found that when vacuuming the sawdust straight out of the container, it would get sucked up too quickly and the units would get bogged down. Dumping it out allowed me to vacuum it up in a more gradual controlled way.
I love the methodology! The dust devil sits outside the bucket. the DIY sits inside the bucket. How about moving the DIY outside the bucket (looks like about the same depth as the Dust devil). Cut another bucket that fits on top of the normal bucket, put the DIY in it. Extrapolating your figures I would think that would bring them up about even.
Ive seen a video where its done like that but even without the extra thein baffle and it worked great. Just a 45 degree bend pvc pipe entering the bucket and a tube to the vaccuum. in the top
Очень удачный выбор для размещения результатов измерений - именно там, где отображается логотип канала. Удобно - ты хочешь видеть, что показывают весы, но результат заслонило логотипом. И вместо благодарности автору видео ты чувствуешь смешанные чувства)))
.about using up 50% of the bucket. it wouldnt do that if you build a thien baffle chamber to sit on top of bucket. its still much more compact than the dust deputy, also much more robust. i use a thien separator for my main separator. and have a secondary separator using a cyclone for overflow/fine dust. i know this setup sacrifice some on airflow. but it performs more than satisfactory to my needs. and it saves my filters quite a bit
Thien baffle chambers that sit on top of the bucket has been done many times before. And by just wrapping around an enclosure and making the bottom of it the lid. Your design would work in this manner too. But if you did it, moving the inlet to its side that was tangential to it could make more sense. Since it should be even more efficient. But base on your test it was not major factor.
It's not because the vacuum filter quickly gets clogged up with fine dust. This leads to severely degraded performance and can even burn out the motor. Using a fine-toothed sawblade generates almost exclusively fine dust. Not having to stop and clean out the filter every few cuts is a big win. Thanks for watching, cheers!
Good video. But you didn't answer the big questions. How much did the homemade version cost? And how long did it take to build? You can buy a knockoff of the Dust Deputy on Amazon for $20. It would be pretty hard for the homemade version to compete with THAT unless it is dirt cheap and very quick to assemble.
The DIY version cost a few bucks because I didn't have the plumbing fittings, the rest I had on hand. For me, even at $40 the Dust Deputy is a better value. I did enjoy making them and doing the experiment to see how the homemade designs stacked up the Dust Deputy. Thanks for watching, cheers!
I may be mistaken but I believe that the comparison is somewhat apples to oranges. As you said the modified design is a big improvement until the bucket gets filled. I Think the key is the distance from the two pipes to the sawdust in the bucket. The dust deputy forces the distance to be longer and so it works better as the bucket is filled. I suspect that a taller but narrower bucket, or deeper thein baffle would increase its efficiency. just a bigger trash can may be easiest solution.
I agree, but you'd still have the same problem with loss of efficiency as it fills up. I observed the effects of this by placing a flashlight inside the bucket while the vacuum was going. As it fills up the dust will start to swirl around and the effect comes amplified the fuller the bucket gets. The baffle mitigates this and having a completely 2nd stage removes it for practical purposes, at least with my two designs.
How much of the fine dust is making it to the shop vac and on its filter? The purpose of the cyclone collector is to trap more of the fine dust, rather than have it clog the vac filter or pass into the air. That fine dust that is inside the shop vac and stuck to its filter should be collected and weighed with a smaller more accurate scale.
You should seal your diy vision and put it on top of the bucket like ypu did with the other one. It probably would do better since it is not in the bucket.
Good followup. However, you still did the same thing as in the last video. The bucket was not in the same location on the scale between measurements. Having the baffle definitely helped out with the accumulation. How about testing with the baffle in various locations. Turning it 1/4 turn each test to see what the results would yield. Is it possible that the open portion in relation to the inlet tube makes a difference in performance? Another thing to consider would be raising the homemade unit up by taking some thin paneling, or thin plexiglass, and wrapping it around the collector. This would give you equal space in the bucket between the two tests. It's obvious that volume in the bucket makes a huge difference. The Dust Deputy sits above the bucket allowing 100% of the bucket to be used for collection and air circulation. The homemade version does not do this as you have it built. I know that you are following some plans that you found online, but perhaps you could make some more modifications to it and see if you can get it to be more efficient as the Dust Deputy. Look forward to more testing ;)
The tests certainly could be more rigorous and elaborate, but it partly comes down to what can reasonably fit into a short video. I think for my next build, I am going to go with a 2-stage using two buckets instead of a baffle. This UA-camr has a pretty interesting video: ua-cam.com/video/iC_yjuLgCNc/v-deo.html using that sort of design. Thanks for the suggestions and stay tuned! 📺
A proper setup cyclone such as Deputy or Chinese works very well. Its been used in industry for years such as the gas industry .I fact there are several video on industry use explain them very well. There is also a video on her doing the measurements between Thien and cyclone that shows real difference between them and cyclone advantage. especially in large multi ported systems.
Really interesting experiment but If you have the appetite you could take it a stage further. But first you have to recognise that the cyclonic action of the DD is happening above the bucket while the DIY is inside the bucket. To address that put the DIY in a taller bucket at least as tall as the existing bucket AND the DD. The comparison of efficiency can then proceed on a more equal basis with performance measured in steps of x inches in the bucket so you can detect where (or if) it tails off. You could the mark the DIY bucket with a ‘must empty line’.
Thanks Norman! I've actually started on a follow up where I use a 1.5 gal bucket as a topper so it creates a true 2-stage cyclone. I think that's going to have the highest performance of any of the DIY builds so far.
The hair splitting in the comments is really a gas. Great work. I certainly get the point and appreciate your taking the time to put up the results. I'm still flabbergasted that a Thein separates near that much along a racetrack that short.
good video. im a great believer in the thien baffle. what you built is a basic diy version. if you followed all the ideas on the thien forum you would end up with much higher efficiencies. when i testes mine i got 99% effficiency on a 45 gallon test run a normal speeds. if you built a full on pimped out set up with the foolowing you would get better resultsdouble height chambertop hat styleside inletround to rectangular transition on the inlet allowing 10% area for lossesthin chamfered baffle edgeno suppport holding the bafflebellmouth outlet air straightener on the outletim thinking about remaking my 50mm version so i might run a test like this
That would be interesting to see, Alan. Do you have plans or a write-up that documents your build? I have a very small basement workshop so the 5gal size is perfect for me. I still want to try building another cyclone collector that uses a 2.5gal bucket for the first stage and see what kind of results I can get with that.
not really any write up on it but if you pop over to the thien forum you can read up on my build and loads of others. retired 2 has a great thread on his build that does some testing. im planning to rebuold my 50 mm one, i expanded the shop so i have some room to use it again. im planning to use a cnc to make it. make it a double height or even a tripple. i would like to try a cone under the baffel to drop into a 5gallon bucket. so that i can mount the seperator on the wall out of the way , i have an 8" double height top hat with rectangular inlet for my main dust colection pipe. it works great. it does let a bit of fine dust fromm the drum sander past but its easy to clean that off the pleated filters with the paddle thing inside that you turn
Hello, I work in a metal workshop and I would be interested in how well this device also works with fine metal dust, metal flakes and small stones because I only ever see tests on youtube with wood dust. Thanks
The cyclone version of the collector will trap very fine dust, though I am not sure what the particle size is. Oneida doesn't have that detail in their specifications. I can tell you that that my vacuum's filter doesn't get clogged at all when I use this. I'd suggest simply trying it out a cyclone separator and seeing if it works well enough. I've seen DIY separators that use a water bath to trap fine particles. Thanks for watching, cheers!
I would suspect that it would work better on metal shavings than wood, since metal is heavier than wood and would stay at the bottom of the bucket better. Hack'n Build made a good point about the water bath. That would help if your metal in your shop were super fine.
Because vacuuming it off the ground more accurately simulates what happens during use of a power tool. The tool doesn't spit out large chunks of dust. When vacuuming up a huge pile like that, the separators don't perform properly. Thanks for watching, cheers.
I always wonder how much difference the size of the exit hole would make. If you make the diameter larger the air travels slower and gravity is more effective. But how effective would that be overall?
@@super-z8943 yeah I was switching between needing the pressure to make the cyclone or using gravity. Thank you for the link, I will most definitely read it when I have time
@@super-z8943 yes, but the centrifuge makes particles heavier than air go down, mass is definitely a factor but having a proper centrifuge is more important
@@Baer1990 yes, but particle mass is out of your control and gravity is always constant no matter what design you use. Centrifugal force and particle velocity is in your hand and only thing that matters. Lower radius designs works better for finer dust while compromising CFM efficiency. Read the paper, it is a proper technical research paper.
It's harsh to say the dust deputy works better with a 90% full bucket when your diy decider uses the bucket space itself where the DD does not. So this solution is pretty awesome!
True, but the DD still performs better than the baffle design so it's useful to point that out. You couldimprove performance out of the baffle design by using a larger bucket and emptying sooner. Thanks for watching, cheers!
To be fair, the Dust Deputy is closer to 99+% efficient for the test that was performed here. He noted in the first video that he believed some of the dust must have been trapped in the hose for the Dust Deputy test which is why it read 86% instead 99%+. I'm sure that was the case. It will be 100% efficient for particles over 100 microns and drops down to around 95% for particles the consistency of corn starch such as fine grit sanding dust. Both the Dust Deputy and the Thien separator are great solutions. Thanks for sharing your builds and testing.
Based on the numbers, sure - but you'd need a 6' high bucket! In all fairness think that the 186g measurements I took (in the previous video) were a result from dust getting stuck inte hose around the intake port as opposed to being stuck in the vacuum. There is also a bit more fine dust going into the bucket with the baffle design. At some point I may do a third iteration to hopefully get performance closer to the Dust Deputy.
Hack 'n Build I thought the same. I also was wondering what would happen if when you put the sawdust in the bucket if you had run the shop vac to ensure loose debris would be sucked out. Then the bucket could be weighed. Not a criticism, just an observation. Thanks for the test though.
If I understand the question, I did try this before settling on this method for testing. A big mass of sawdust would be sucked up relatively quickly and both get bogged down in that case, so that's why I dump it out. The dump it all on the floor method could be improved my dumping onto a piece of plywood. I would probably just inspect visually rather than weighing it because the amount left (if any) would be so minute the scale wouldn't pick it up. Thanks for watching, cheers!
Hack 'n Build sorry, I didn't really explain myself properly. I meant when you add the 25% if you ran the motor first, then any loose debris would end up in the shop vac and would you a real world zero when the first weigh was done. Mind you, I suppose that would possibly mean with the DIY cyclone that it would possibly suck a lot into the shop vac. Loved your comparisons, very thorough. I have been thinking of the DIY one but may consider a road cone based cyclone.
Glad it was helpful. I think the roadcone version would be the way to go compared to a baffle design, my guess is that you'd get pretty good performance without a lot of tweaking.
Need to get your thoughts on something. I want to build a large cyclone to remove soil from the basement of my 1880 home. I envision using a wheeled walk-behind leaf blower/vac. Then I will use a large bulk bag to collect the dirt. Perhaps use flexible drain hose and a square plywood cover on top of the bag. I don't want the dirt to hit the blade and chance damaging it. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
Any vac that would be effective enough to hook up to a power tool ought to work, you just need enough suction to draw the air in to the cyclone and get the cyclonic action going.
your dust collector cut by 50% the volume capacity of the bucket, because of that you may consider a full success what it collects. Adding more bucket capacity, let me say a extra bucket under the one used for tests, dust can fall thrugh a hole, I'll do one for my workshop, many thanks from italy
You can ditch all the wood and fix the performance easily. Build the cyclone in a smaller pail, glue it to the cover of a larger pail make holes as needed. DONE.
I just want to add to what another commenter said. Yes, these devices work well but the most harmful particles are still in the air unless you have a 1 micron or less filter on board. I think a full face filter provides the ultimate protection in addition to the dust collector. The human body is the ultimate dust collector starting with nose hair then on down to the cellular level.. Everything works fine unless you overwhelm the system. A lifetime of breathing sawdust, etc may eventually show up as one of many types of lung disease-COPD, Black Lung, Brown Lung. etc.
Same here. I have an air filter running and wear a dust mask when I remember (usually if I know I am going to be running the saw for more than a couple of cuts).
Good grief not only have I watched a dozen dust cyclone videos now but it took a dozen to get to 1 with someone actually did some measurement well done nice comparison interesting I wonder if that air filter pleated air filter which is a scam like printer ink is the limiting Factor wouldn't it all be going off as it fills up
I never put one together. It's based roughly off a Thein baffle design. If you google it, there should be some plans you can find. The parts for this one are the plywood discs, scrap wood, fasteners, 1 PVC elbow, 2 PVC couplers and some short lengths of PVC pipe. All 1.5". I'd suggest building a conical one though, if you're going to go through the effort to make one. Cheers.
The comparison you're talking about (check 6:40 for the results), but changing the design to be similar to the Dust Deputy would be another comparison all together.
Hack 'n Build thanks for the reply man looking at building one of these my self. awesome video. Are you thinking of building a redesigned one that sits on top?
I tried making a DIY extractor but it collapsed first a 5 gallon bucket, then a plastic 30 gallon trash can and also a metal 30 gallon trash can...believe it or not. Im not sure why.
That's happened to me too. It also will happen much more readily if the intake hose gets plugged up. I took two of the bad buckets and epoxied them together. I also placed a layer of pebbles in the first bucket for added weight. Haven't had the problem since then.
Too much vacuum: *always* keep at least one dust gate open. Otherwise, for every 1 PSI (pounds per square inch) of vacuum, every square foot (12" x 12") of bucket or can gets 12 x 12 = 144 pounds of force on it. Air is 14PSI at sea level, so maximum possible force is 14 PSI x 12" x 12" = 2,016 pounds per square foot. Not realistic here because dust collectors and shop vacs can't pull that much of a vacuum, but you get the idea.
It looks like with a taller bucket that home made solution would work just fine. As a matter of fact, if you sized it to fit a trashcan, you could have it fill a trash bag and make emptying really easy. As well as the DD works, that tall thing sticking above the container just seems like kind of a poor design.
It just occurred to me that it may be related to the fact that the lower chamber ends up as a vacuum which allows the dust/debris to be forced down once it passes over the slots. Or something along those lines...
I am pretty sure that would get dust swirling around below the baffle, which would defeat the purpose of having the baffle in the first place. Shoudln't be that hard to try out, I'd be interested in seeing what would happen.
Actually, the more I think about it, having the outlet below the baffle wouldn't prevent the finer dust from just eventually flowing back up towards the outlet. With the baffle, once particles get below it, they are completely removed from the air flow. Getting the particles to fall into the slot is the trick, which I guess is the physics happening in the Dust Deputy. I find the whole physics behind this process quite fascinating.
@@HacknBuild That doesn't make sense, all it will do is pick up some of the debris and it won't remove the sub 5 micron dust particles that cause health problems and it definitely won't remove the really dangerous sub 3 micron particles that once in the lungs stay there. It is easy to pick up the big saw "dust" debris but capturing the really small stuff requires requires a lot of air to be moved.
I installed a single Dust Deputy and found suction value to have dropped by 50 percent from before installing DD and when I checked their advice was to add another bucket and DD in parallel with existing one to receive same suction value as before. Splitting suction into two hoses right before entry in to the two DD’s and then reconnect before entry into the vacuum cleaner. I have not tried adding another DD in parallel with my existing one. If I am using equipment that produces a lot of debris then I disconnect DD and take it off line and vacuum pickup is as before. Has anyone else had the same experience?
Your cyclone is in the bucket vs the other one on top of the bucket. You'd have better results doing the same with a separate bucket. Or use a barrel or something larger.
Could be. I pretty much put the home brew solution on the shelf and continued using the Dust Deputy since I made the video because I have it and it works well for me. Thanks for watching, cheers!
I know this is just a picky but if you are going to put the magnified scale LCD up so you can see it... It might be wise to not cover that easy to see display with your logo.
Check the followup video. I figured out how to do it better by then. If you go full screen with the video, the display might be more readable. Thanks for watching, cheers.
You can buy a Chinese copy of the dust deputy off ebay for under $20. Unless you already have the PVC connectors laying around it probably doesn't pay to DIY.
I built out a prototype, but it really wasn't much better than the baffle design. I think with some tweaks it could be improved, though. I've been busy lately with boring home improvement projects, but hopefully once those are wrapped up I'll get back to more fun projects (and videos!). Thanks for watching. Cheers!
It's an inset lid so it goes inside the bucket. The top circle holds it in place and makes it easy to get on and off. It works a bit like a cork I suppose.
Pretty sure I put everything into a spreadsheet, so probably things are just getting rounded and the display values don't like up with the underlying numbers. Thanks for watching, cheers!
A very well done empirical comparison. I like your style... I've watched many videos on dust collection and I can tell ya that opinions are varied and somewhat subjective, however facts are facts and that's why I appreciate videos like this. On a side note; I'm sure there is someone out there that is saying to themselves "I'm going to 3D print myself a Dust Deputy". and to be clear: I hate those people :)
I just made one yesterday. *ua-cam.com/video/1wS6NXH9Cmg/v-deo.html&t=* My original version was like yours and once about 4 inches of dust got in the bucket, it lost huge efficiency and started sucking into the vacuum. So... I cut the bottom half of the bucket off. Sat the top half on a piece of plywood and cut the thein baffle directly into the board. Then I attached that board on top of a larger, square container (to interfere with and break up the lower airflow movement under the baffle) and it work brilliant now! The baffle isn't the best configuration, because I didn't research the best shape/size ratio. But even my crude, unmeasured version is many times better than just pipe in a bucket.
Thanks - there is definitely some improvement with the 2.0 design, but I want to test out a couple different designs that are hopefully even better. Cheers!
I have a hunch that if the thien baffle plate were made out of something very thin that it might increase the efficiency. With a chunk of 3/4" plywood for the baffle, the stream of dust particles hits the wide 3/4" plywood at the end of the slot as it is revolving around. While most of the dust goes down, some amount hits the cross section and creates turbulence. I have a window in mine and the dust makes several revolutions before all of it drops to the bottom. I've thought that if the baffle were made out of thin metal (like 12 or 14 gauge) that it would act more as a knife edge and the cross section for the dust hitting the end of the open slot would be negligible. Just a hunch....
Interesting idea Bruce. It would certainly be worth investigating. A similar effect might be achieved by putting a bevel on the top side of the baffle too.
So what I take from this is that the thein baffle is just as good but simply just needs a larger bucket! Great test and well done. Thank you for this.
That would work. Glad you found it helpful.
Actually a thien baffle is meat to sit on top of the bucket, not inside it.
Your timer, planning and video editing are VERY MUCH appreciated! Thanks!
I just LOVE how accurate you are to dissuade the detractors BEFORE they begin !! GREAT JOB !!
Thanks, Terry!
Obviously the other design is going to work better as the bucket fills because the separator is outside of it, and yours shares the same volume. Give yourself the same space above to create something and it'll inherently work much better.
Compared to my current set up of ZERO dust collection, either of these will be a godsend. I'm certainly not going to worry about a few grams here or there. Both methods beat my broom.
Yep, for sure. They're both a whole heck of a lot better than nothing!
I have a fair amount of experience with cyclonic separators. One aspect that is often not seen is the importance of the diameter of the cyclone. Separation is achieved in a cyclone by centrifugal force, the smaller the diameter of the cyclone, the faster the cyclonic action, increasing the amount of centrifugal force, and therefore achieving a higher amount of separation. Cyclones are smaller on the bottom to increase the separation force as the solids drop within the cyclone. The difference in density of the materials being separated also has a huge effect on the separation efficiency. Increasing the efficiency of a simple cyclone like the Dust Deputy would best be achieved by utilizing a longer, more exaggerated cyclone chamber, or a second cyclone that is longer and smaller in diameter in series with the first.
Thanks for the suggestions!
Thanks for showing me this Thein style. I will make one like this and use it in a 10 or 20 gal round metal garbage can.
That will work well on a big can like that. Cheers!
I know this is an older video, but well done with the tests. It scales to any size Dust Deputy they make. I too toyed with creating my own separator, needing to use a full size metal trash can. I needed 6" hose connections for my Grizzly G0944 dust collector system.
After much research I came to the same conclusions and wound up purchasing the Oneida Super Dust Deputy XL. The main advantage is it utilizes the full capacity of the can it sits on without performance degradation as it fills. The bottom of the DD is just a simple funnel to the can and the can is not part of the cyclone action, just a collection bin. That plus not having to build it from scratch spending time and materials, is why I found it better to just spend the money on the Oneida (it is not cheap - $240). It works great for me.
Thanks for sharing your experience! When I made this video there were already a lot of DIY dust collector videos and I was curious how they stacked up. I'd already purchased a Dust Deputy so I wanted to see if I was missing out. The DD is relatively inexpensive and works better than both DIY options presented, so in my view it's a better option. Better to spend the time building something more useful that you can't buy instead.
I just got a Dust Deputy and to prevent the bucket from tipping and make sure the vacuum and bucket stayed together to make it easier to move, I built a small plywood cart. Essentially a rectangular box with holes in the top to fit the vacuum and bucket with wheels under it. It's simple and effective.
Good idea.
I did much the same... a wall bracket to hold the Super DD XL I have. It is very stable and just the right space under to slide a can beneath for change out (a couple simple wedge spacers to lift it up the final 1/2" so I can strap & seal the top that is mounted to the bottom of that shelf).
Very good to the point video with fair test conditions. You did a very good job. Keep it up !
try using a second bucket for the cyclone, this way you can mount it above the collection bucket instead of being inside the bucket, that's why the dust deputy works with the bucket near full, because it does all the work above the lid, really the dust deputy wouldn't save space compared to making your own out of a bucket because it's still tall.
That might help.
FYI- Its been done, Building the two-bucket cyclone by Matthias Wandel
ua-cam.com/video/z-xhYnWDCd0/v-deo.html
I would like to see a rebuild with your design outside of the bucket. It would mean sealing the outer ring, but with both dust collectors outside, you would have a better comparison.
I think I am done building dust collectors for a while, but who knows? Thanks for watching!
I have a thien baffle dust collector that is vented outside and I find that when I quickly vacuum up a pile of sawdust a small amount of the sawdust goes outside. But if I'm vacuuming up stuff at a slower more even pace, the separation efficiency increases. I'm happy with the performance of the thien baffle. Mine is along the lines of the April Wilkerson conversion of a HF dust collector.
I ran into the same thing setting up for the tests. The first thing I did shove the hose into a full bucket of sawdust to see what would happen. Both systems get bogged down pretty quickly that way, but that's not really a very accurate test! I think the smaller pile of sawdust is a reasonable compromise between a real-world scenario and a repeatable test. Thanks for watching, cheers!
great methodology for testing. if I could put my 2 cents in here: you proved that as long as you keep the bucket mostly empty, it is very efficient. with that fact in mind, to empty the bucket often can be a key factor to efficiency. I have done 3 different videos on making an easy emptying bucket to my vac system (less than 10 seconds to empty) so I never let my bucket fill up. I am of the opinion that if you want an efficient dust collection, emptying the dust bucket needs to be a menial task. I have also found that I still need to clean the vac filter periodically (yearly), just not as often as I would have to without a cyclone. the fine dust still gets to the vac (& filter) and clogs up eventually. great follow up video :>)
It might not make it if you put a thin shirt over the exit hole on your dust collector..
Good video! I went with a deputy style unit much cheaper version though Ill build a better one soon. Rather than placing it on top of the lid I submerged it half into the bucket to make it less bulky.. ran PVC pipe to a Eureka vacuum motor also on the lid. works great mostly for metal dust and particles. I think you could improve the DYS baffle if it were much thinner and the intake driven directly from the wall side rather than curve into the tank. Also, it would help if you had about a foot of straight intake tube before entering the tank and perhaps heat/reshape inside end flat against wall, They all do a decent job picking up chips but it's the stuff that you don't see that kills you, the last small percentage. Dust particles larger than 100 microns will fall back to earth quickly. I would spend the money on a good washable filter that stops 3micron particles that suspend in the air indefinitely. And the most.. "bestes" filter is opening the garage door. I'm mostly regurgitating info. from the one and only Bill P. if you want an education of collecting rare dust .. his place is the one... believe his son runs it now...... billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm had the pleasure of writing him a couple of times.
Thanks for the suggestions!
let's see...
the cyclone action of the dust deputy is outside the collector, the diy version has it inside the collector.
could it be that this has something to do with everything? ... maybe?
This is exactly what I was about to post. The distance between the output (to the vacuum) is further from the collected dust on the deputy.
I was thinking the same thing. Its not strictly a like for like comparison. Interesting results. I suspect if you used the DIY version with the baffle in a 2nd upturned bucket your results would be better still.
Just a thought if you really wanted to make it work when the bucket was fuller. Adding slots ie louvers to the bottom third of the opening in the baffle or just below it. Would reduce or eliminate the saw dust being sucked back up. Since the negative pressure created by the vortex suck it up at an angle that the louvers will prevent. But a cautionary note, if the louvers are to high they will interfere with the flow of the vortex, that would make it worse not better.
BTW, Since I was considering doing the same basic thing to a trash can. (But I was going to use the 1st method you mentioned where baffle with attached an extended center outlet pipe.) So this proved what I suspected already so thx for testing it out. And for small container it would make more sense for most ppl. To add Thein baffle to the top the bucket with a more efficient tangential.
Get a bigger container. I use a very rigid sump pump basket that holds about 30 gallons with a Thein baffle. Works great.
That would probably be a smart idea if I had the room for it. 5 gallon size is as big as I am gonna go with my current shop and I am still very happy with the Dust Deputy. Thanks for watching, cheers!
I built a Thein top hat to go on a blue barrel. Works great. Used my old busted vack as the top hat. Saved a fortune in bags.
Nice. How much does a barrel like that weigh when it's full of sawdust?
Its not bad. Its not the biggest its the middle size one I dont know how many gallons off hand. I normally empty it when about 3/4 full and I have it on wheels to move around the shop.
One thing I noticed about your test is that your home made one would of done better if your bucket was almost full to the bottom of the wood. I think a fair test would be to have the sawdust about a third of the way down, and then test. As the bucket fills up, it will pull the sawdust into the vac because of the bucket being full.
I'll keep that in mind if I ever do another one of these things.
Nice comparison but something isn't right. The Dust Deputy will be more efficient for every particle size so you must not be weighing all the dust captured. The DD should be in t he 97%-99% efficiency range by weight for most sawdust.
Also, everytime you recycle the dust you are capturing the larger particles and sending the smallest, most unhealthy particles into the air. So, by the end the cyclones should be capturing a higher % by weight than when you started.
If you use fresh corn starch for every test then you should get a more realistic comparison.
If you use a tangential inlet I believe your Thien baffle will provide much better efficiency for fine dust.
Thanks for posting your design and tests. Every test brings new insights.
Thanks Tony, I may consider doing something like that in the future. Might also be good to do a rubber-meets-the-road type test with making a set number of cuts on the table saw and see what happens.
Concerning starch, be aware that most vacuum cleaners are not explosion proof (open motor) where some have a separate cooling flow.
@Trey Gowdy actually, a few % points is very significant. For example, a cyclone that captures 86% will pass almost 15x more dust than one that captures 99%. That means you have to empty your vacuum and clean your filter 15x more often.
It seems like it's not much but if you look at it in terms of the % of dust that is passed instead of the % collected it becomes much more intuitive.
BTW, you should be able to vent outside with just the dust Deputy without mods. It captures 98+% of the dust (by weight) so only the finest dust passes through. Make sure the outlet isn't near an area where air gets sucked back into your shop.
@Trey Gowdy i used a dyson after the thien before the shop vac got great results, i have a vid of it here ua-cam.com/video/Khrwpm57nO0/v-deo.html
Only 1 detail I would bring up, I'd call it 50% full when the dust level is 50% of the way to the baffle on the DIY version, not with only 2" left, I'd call that 90% full. So, the DIY version would be perfect if you had a larger or taller bucket like a 30 gallon barrel etc. That is what I plan to build.
wish I had made a video, but I used my dust bucket to vac up the dust from a large concrete and cinder block job.. I probably got about 150 lbs of dust, mortar, and small chunks of blocks, and while the filter in the shop vac was pretty dusty, it was still doing a fair job ..next to nothing made it to the vac...
mine just has a vac port on top, and the hose from my old house vac, with its inlet port from the vac cut into the side of the bucket..i screwed it down to a cheap wooden cart from harbor freight, and drilled some holes in the wood to hold atfachments..
also works great on my blast cabinet!
if anyone is thinking about making one, give it a shot! I spent about 12 bucks on my whole setup and it does amazing!
I hope you are wearing a respirator! A 3M or AOSafety half-mask P95 or P100 costs $20, while new lungs...
One thing to also note here is that what the Dust Deputy gains in efficiency, you also loose in height and shop space. I'm building a small dust collection system to go right under my compound miter saw cabinet and will use my POS Home Depot shop vac (the one with the nice detachable blower..yet a dust barrel that is virtually impossible to empty out because of its folds and lip) - And because of the 40" height restriction of my saw cabinet I'm purchasing a 20 gallon plastic drum (30" tall x 19.5" dia.) with snap lid that I'll build the Thein baffle into. And then I'll just dump it whenever it reaches ~8 to 10 gallons.
Sounds like that will work well for the space you've got. Throwing out another idea: what if you constructed a square box to hold the sawdust instead of a round barrel? Might help you eek out that extra bit of space.📏
I'd thought of that but luckily the plastic food container barrel will fit nicely and costs $30. A custom box would cost at least $50 in materials and maybe a day of work. Im in San Diego, we have a store called Drums and Totes (may be a national chain) and you can get really nice stuff from 15 gallon up to 55 gal. or more.
I also enjoyed your tests and use two similar bucket collectors in my shop attached to 2 1/4" hose shop vacs. For the money, it seemed worthwhile to buy the Dust Deputy. I needed a shorter collector to dedicate to my tablesaw and stow under the extensions, thus the Thien baffle was a better solution. Also like the lower profile because it is sturdier and more stable than the taller cyclone. Am pleased with both and the Dust Deputy captures most of the dust dedicated to my bandsaw. Wish the inlet and outlet ports on the cyclone were sized a little larger to closer match my vac hose and was wondering if there is much loss in airflow volume and ability to capture dust at the inlet from a bandsaw or sander.
Glad you enjoyed it. Thanks for watching, Christopher!
Christopher (7 MONTHS AGO ) from what I know the best you can do is to collect the dust as close to where it begins meaning producing dust covers anywhere you can nearest the production of dust. I cut the covers of my band saw to place pipe just beside the bottom guide rollers and even though it does not grab all the falling dust I think it sucks up most of the fine air particles out my garage wall as I don't use a filter for the large unit. The difficult machines to work with are the chop saw or table saw as they throw dust volume hard and fast.. you need big air to gather all that dust properly. My unit 4in pipe 1hp motor will grab the first few seconds on a chop saw then dust starts to override the vacuum strength as the dust air flow begins a pattern. it's difficult to make a good dust cover for a chop saw but what a difference without my air machine especially with MDF boards.
Great information, thank you. I think one of the factors here is absence of the tangential nozzle. It's a hassle, but I'm considering making one.
Glad you found it helpful, good luck with your build!
Thank you kindly
Nice series of tests. I enjoyed both videos. Question: What's the point of dumping the sawdust onto the floor? It seems you could have simply sucked it out of the container. By dumping the sawdust onto the floor, there's a greater chance that all the sawdust might not be vacuumed up -- which could affect your test results. (In the first video, it appeared in one of your tests that a portion of the sawdust was trapped under the cord of the vacuum and remained on the floor.)
Glad you liked the videos. I found that when vacuuming the sawdust straight out of the container, it would get sucked up too quickly and the units would get bogged down. Dumping it out allowed me to vacuum it up in a more gradual controlled way.
I love the methodology!
The dust devil sits outside the bucket. the DIY sits inside the bucket.
How about moving the DIY outside the bucket (looks like about the same depth as the Dust devil).
Cut another bucket that fits on top of the normal bucket, put the DIY in it.
Extrapolating your figures I would think that would bring them up about even.
Ive seen a video where its done like that but even without the extra thein baffle and it worked great. Just a 45 degree bend pvc pipe entering the bucket and a tube to the vaccuum. in the top
Очень удачный выбор для размещения результатов измерений - именно там, где отображается логотип канала. Удобно - ты хочешь видеть, что показывают весы, но результат заслонило логотипом. И вместо благодарности автору видео ты чувствуешь смешанные чувства)))
.about using up 50% of the bucket. it wouldnt do that if you build a thien baffle chamber to sit on top of bucket. its still much more compact than the dust deputy, also much more robust. i use a thien separator for my main separator. and have a secondary separator using a cyclone for overflow/fine dust. i know this setup sacrifice some on airflow. but it performs more than satisfactory to my needs. and it saves my filters quite a bit
Have you tried the setup using just the cyclone collector?
Thien baffle chambers that sit on top of the bucket has been done many times before. And by just wrapping around an enclosure and making the bottom of it the lid. Your design would work in this manner too.
But if you did it, moving the inlet to its side that was tangential to it could make more sense. Since it should be even more efficient.
But base on your test it was not major factor.
So what is the point? Isn't it just as easy to empty the vacuum as the bucket?
It's not because the vacuum filter quickly gets clogged up with fine dust. This leads to severely degraded performance and can even burn out the motor. Using a fine-toothed sawblade generates almost exclusively fine dust. Not having to stop and clean out the filter every few cuts is a big win. Thanks for watching, cheers!
Good test! What's the difference in suction between using both?
I didn't really test that, though it didn't seem like there was much difference between the two from what I can remember.
Good video. But you didn't answer the big questions. How much did the homemade version cost? And how long did it take to build? You can buy a knockoff of the Dust Deputy on Amazon for $20. It would be pretty hard for the homemade version to compete with THAT unless it is dirt cheap and very quick to assemble.
The DIY version cost a few bucks because I didn't have the plumbing fittings, the rest I had on hand. For me, even at $40 the Dust Deputy is a better value. I did enjoy making them and doing the experiment to see how the homemade designs stacked up the Dust Deputy. Thanks for watching, cheers!
buy a "rain gauge", its quite cheap. you can make a cyclone system with that and it's a hard plastic too
Might be a bit small.
I may be mistaken but I believe that the comparison is somewhat apples to oranges. As you said the modified design is a big improvement until the bucket gets filled. I Think the key is the distance from the two pipes to the sawdust in the bucket. The dust deputy forces the distance to be longer and so it works better as the bucket is filled. I suspect that a taller but narrower bucket, or deeper thein baffle would increase its efficiency. just a bigger trash can may be easiest solution.
I agree, but you'd still have the same problem with loss of efficiency as it fills up. I observed the effects of this by placing a flashlight inside the bucket while the vacuum was going. As it fills up the dust will start to swirl around and the effect comes amplified the fuller the bucket gets. The baffle mitigates this and having a completely 2nd stage removes it for practical purposes, at least with my two designs.
How much of the fine dust is making it to the shop vac and on its filter?
The purpose of the cyclone collector is to trap more of the fine dust, rather than have it clog the vac filter or pass into the air.
That fine dust that is inside the shop vac and stuck to its filter should be collected and weighed with a smaller more accurate scale.
For the Deputy, practically none. For the DIY option, some.
You should seal your diy vision and put it on top of the bucket like ypu did with the other one. It probably would do better since it is not in the bucket.
Thanks for the suggestion, let us know how it works if you try it.
Good followup. However, you still did the same thing as in the last video. The bucket was not in the same location on the scale between measurements. Having the baffle definitely helped out with the accumulation.
How about testing with the baffle in various locations. Turning it 1/4 turn each test to see what the results would yield. Is it possible that the open portion in relation to the inlet tube makes a difference in performance?
Another thing to consider would be raising the homemade unit up by taking some thin paneling, or thin plexiglass, and wrapping it around the collector. This would give you equal space in the bucket between the two tests. It's obvious that volume in the bucket makes a huge difference. The Dust Deputy sits above the bucket allowing 100% of the bucket to be used for collection and air circulation. The homemade version does not do this as you have it built. I know that you are following some plans that you found online, but perhaps you could make some more modifications to it and see if you can get it to be more efficient as the Dust Deputy.
Look forward to more testing ;)
The tests certainly could be more rigorous and elaborate, but it partly comes down to what can reasonably fit into a short video. I think for my next build, I am going to go with a 2-stage using two buckets instead of a baffle. This UA-camr has a pretty interesting video: ua-cam.com/video/iC_yjuLgCNc/v-deo.html using that sort of design. Thanks for the suggestions and stay tuned! 📺
A proper setup cyclone such as Deputy or Chinese works very well. Its been used in industry for years such as the gas industry .I fact there are several video on industry use explain them very well. There is also a video on her doing the measurements between Thien and cyclone that shows real difference between them and cyclone advantage. especially in large multi ported systems.
Interesting factoid David, thanks for sharing.
Hi, can you post that video? it is not easy to find it... thx
Toyota use the same principle in the air intakes for their Land Cruiser vehicles, so the sand and large particles don't go in the filter.
Really interesting experiment but If you have the appetite you could take it a stage further. But first you have to recognise that the cyclonic action of the DD is happening above the bucket while the DIY is inside the bucket. To address that put the DIY in a taller bucket at least as tall as the existing bucket AND the DD. The comparison of efficiency can then proceed on a more equal basis with performance measured in steps of x inches in the bucket so you can detect where (or if) it tails off. You could the mark the DIY bucket with a ‘must empty line’.
Thanks Norman! I've actually started on a follow up where I use a 1.5 gal bucket as a topper so it creates a true 2-stage cyclone. I think that's going to have the highest performance of any of the DIY builds so far.
The hair splitting in the comments is really a gas. Great work. I certainly get the point and appreciate your taking the time to put up the results. I'm still flabbergasted that a Thein separates near that much along a racetrack that short.
Thanks buddy. Glad you enjoyed the video and the discussion 🤣
cut bottom off of vacuum and mount vacuum on top of larger bucket.
I thought about doing doming like that but it's too much work.
Did you have your vacuum on full power or adjusted?
It's not adjustable, it is always full power.
good video. im a great believer in the thien baffle. what you built is a basic diy version. if you followed all the ideas on the thien forum you would end up with much higher efficiencies. when i testes mine i got 99% effficiency on a 45 gallon test run a normal speeds. if you built a full on pimped out set up with the foolowing you would get better resultsdouble height chambertop hat styleside inletround to rectangular transition on the inlet allowing 10% area for lossesthin chamfered baffle edgeno suppport holding the bafflebellmouth outlet air straightener on the outletim thinking about remaking my 50mm version so i might run a test like this
That would be interesting to see, Alan. Do you have plans or a write-up that documents your build? I have a very small basement workshop so the 5gal size is perfect for me. I still want to try building another cyclone collector that uses a 2.5gal bucket for the first stage and see what kind of results I can get with that.
not really any write up on it but if you pop over to the thien forum you can read up on my build and loads of others. retired 2 has a great thread on his build that does some testing. im planning to rebuold my 50 mm one, i expanded the shop so i have some room to use it again. im planning to use a cnc to make it. make it a double height or even a tripple. i would like to try a cone under the baffel to drop into a 5gallon bucket. so that i can mount the seperator on the wall out of the way , i have an 8" double height top hat with rectangular inlet for my main dust colection pipe. it works great. it does let a bit of fine dust fromm the drum sander past but its easy to clean that off the pleated filters with the paddle thing inside that you turn
2020 but anyway, you should stack two buckets to make it deeper
Hello, I work in a metal workshop and I would be interested in how well this device also works with fine metal dust, metal flakes
and small stones because I only ever see tests on youtube with wood dust. Thanks
The cyclone version of the collector will trap very fine dust, though I am not sure what the particle size is. Oneida doesn't have that detail in their specifications. I can tell you that that my vacuum's filter doesn't get clogged at all when I use this. I'd suggest simply trying it out a cyclone separator and seeing if it works well enough. I've seen DIY separators that use a water bath to trap fine particles. Thanks for watching, cheers!
I would suspect that it would work better on metal shavings than wood, since metal is heavier than wood and would stay at the bottom of the bucket better. Hack'n Build made a good point about the water bath. That would help if your metal in your shop were super fine.
Good video, but I have to ask - why dump out the sawdust to vacuum it up? Save a step and vacuum it out of the container.
Because vacuuming it off the ground more accurately simulates what happens during use of a power tool. The tool doesn't spit out large chunks of dust. When vacuuming up a huge pile like that, the separators don't perform properly. Thanks for watching, cheers.
I always wonder how much difference the size of the exit hole would make. If you make the diameter larger the air travels slower and gravity is more effective.
But how effective would that be overall?
Well, you guessed it wrong.
Larger exit hole means lower efficiency. I just read a research paper today.
www.hindawi.com/journals/amp/2019/7134309/
@@super-z8943 yeah I was switching between needing the pressure to make the cyclone or using gravity. Thank you for the link, I will most definitely read it when I have time
@@Baer1990 This doesn't have much to do with pressure or gravity directly. Particle velocity and centrifugal force are key factors.
@@super-z8943 yes, but the centrifuge makes particles heavier than air go down, mass is definitely a factor but having a proper centrifuge is more important
@@Baer1990 yes, but particle mass is out of your control and gravity is always constant no matter what design you use.
Centrifugal force and particle velocity is in your hand and only thing that matters. Lower radius designs works better for finer dust while compromising CFM efficiency.
Read the paper, it is a proper technical research paper.
I like your design better. It’s more compact, portable, and unbreakable.
loved the follow up video.....I feel the inspiration flowing into my small brain...thanks that was awesome
You're welcome!
It's harsh to say the dust deputy works better with a 90% full bucket when your diy decider uses the bucket space itself where the DD does not. So this solution is pretty awesome!
True, but the DD still performs better than the baffle design so it's useful to point that out. You couldimprove performance out of the baffle design by using a larger bucket and emptying sooner. Thanks for watching, cheers!
Hack 'n Build thank you for the video!
Scienced the shit out of it - excellent. BTW, doesnt need to take up any of your bucket if you make it a separate unit that sits on top
Thanks, Prez. 8-)
"Scienced the shit out of it" and did some mean ciphering (hillbilly kind not the code breaking kind) :)
To be fair, the Dust Deputy is closer to 99+% efficient for the test that was performed here. He noted in the first video that he believed some of the dust must have been trapped in the hose for the Dust Deputy test which is why it read 86% instead 99%+. I'm sure that was the case. It will be 100% efficient for particles over 100 microns and drops down to around 95% for particles the consistency of corn starch such as fine grit sanding dust.
Both the Dust Deputy and the Thien separator are great solutions. Thanks for sharing your builds and testing.
So, if we get a taller bucket the DIY will continue to beat the Deputy.
Based on the numbers, sure - but you'd need a 6' high bucket! In all fairness think that the 186g measurements I took (in the previous video) were a result from dust getting stuck inte hose around the intake port as opposed to being stuck in the vacuum. There is also a bit more fine dust going into the bucket with the baffle design. At some point I may do a third iteration to hopefully get performance closer to the Dust Deputy.
Hack 'n Build I thought the same. I also was wondering what would happen if when you put the sawdust in the bucket if you had run the shop vac to ensure loose debris would be sucked out. Then the bucket could be weighed. Not a criticism, just an observation. Thanks for the test though.
If I understand the question, I did try this before settling on this method for testing. A big mass of sawdust would be sucked up relatively quickly and both get bogged down in that case, so that's why I dump it out. The dump it all on the floor method could be improved my dumping onto a piece of plywood. I would probably just inspect visually rather than weighing it because the amount left (if any) would be so minute the scale wouldn't pick it up. Thanks for watching, cheers!
Hack 'n Build sorry, I didn't really explain myself properly. I meant when you add the 25% if you ran the motor first, then any loose debris would end up in the shop vac and would you a real world zero when the first weigh was done. Mind you, I suppose that would possibly mean with the DIY cyclone that it would possibly suck a lot into the shop vac. Loved your comparisons, very thorough. I have been thinking of the DIY one but may consider a road cone based cyclone.
Glad it was helpful. I think the roadcone version would be the way to go compared to a baffle design, my guess is that you'd get pretty good performance without a lot of tweaking.
Need to get your thoughts on something. I want to build a large cyclone to remove soil from the basement of my 1880 home. I envision using a wheeled walk-behind leaf blower/vac. Then I will use a large bulk bag to collect the dirt. Perhaps use flexible drain hose and a square plywood cover on top of the bag. I don't want the dirt to hit the blade and chance damaging it. Let me know your thoughts. Thanks.
Enjoyed, Good Video, IT can be done. I collect less than 4 micron from my squat Cyclone PRE-FILTER Cheers
Thanks for watching, RJ. Glad to hear your setup is working out for you. 😎
What size of shop vac do you need to have the deputy function properly?
Any vac that would be effective enough to hook up to a power tool ought to work, you just need enough suction to draw the air in to the cyclone and get the cyclonic action going.
your dust collector cut by 50% the volume capacity of the bucket, because of that you may consider a full success what it collects. Adding more bucket capacity, let me say a extra bucket under the one used for tests, dust can fall thrugh a hole, I'll do one for my workshop, many thanks from italy
You can ditch all the wood and fix the performance easily. Build the cyclone in a smaller pail, glue it to the cover of a larger pail make holes as needed. DONE.
With The Dust Dep I owned, I could wait till the bucket was totaly topped out before I had to empty.
Have you used your design for hand sanding? Fine dust
No I haven't, but it should work so long as you can devise some sort of a catcher attachment for the hose. Thanks for watching, cheers!
I love the dust deputy it’s worth the money spent
Agreed. Just buy the thing and then use the extra time to work on higher-value projects.
I just want to add to what another commenter said. Yes, these devices work well but the most harmful particles are still in the air unless you have a 1 micron or less filter on board. I think a full face filter provides the ultimate protection in addition to the dust collector. The human body is the ultimate dust collector starting with nose hair then on down to the cellular level.. Everything works fine unless you overwhelm the system. A lifetime of breathing sawdust, etc may eventually show up as one of many types of lung disease-COPD, Black Lung, Brown Lung. etc.
Same here. I have an air filter running and wear a dust mask when I remember (usually if I know I am going to be running the saw for more than a couple of cuts).
Great, but I think the point is to save your filters and make cleaning out the dust easier (smaller bucket)
UR riight. Just adding to the conversation.
Good grief not only have I watched a dozen dust cyclone videos now but it took a dozen to get to 1 with someone actually did some measurement well done nice comparison interesting I wonder if that air filter pleated air filter which is a scam like printer ink is the limiting Factor wouldn't it all be going off as it fills up
Glad you found it helpful. Not sure about the filters, I just use the basic "workshop" ones. Thanks for watching, cheers.
Very cool! Thanks for sharing.
Where is the materials list/design doc for this thing?
I never put one together. It's based roughly off a Thein baffle design. If you google it, there should be some plans you can find. The parts for this one are the plywood discs, scrap wood, fasteners, 1 PVC elbow, 2 PVC couplers and some short lengths of PVC pipe. All 1.5". I'd suggest building a conical one though, if you're going to go through the effort to make one. Cheers.
To make this a fair comparison you would have to fill the dust deputy up half way or design the other cyclone to sit on top.
The comparison you're talking about (check 6:40 for the results), but changing the design to be similar to the Dust Deputy would be another comparison all together.
Hack 'n Build thanks for the reply man looking at building one of these my self. awesome video. Are you thinking of building a redesigned one that sits on top?
I tried making a DIY extractor but it collapsed first a 5 gallon bucket, then a plastic 30 gallon trash can and also a metal 30 gallon trash can...believe it or not. Im not sure why.
That's happened to me too. It also will happen much more readily if the intake hose gets plugged up. I took two of the bad buckets and epoxied them together. I also placed a layer of pebbles in the first bucket for added weight. Haven't had the problem since then.
Too much vacuum: *always* keep at least one dust gate open. Otherwise, for every 1 PSI (pounds per square inch) of vacuum, every square foot (12" x 12") of bucket or can gets 12 x 12 = 144 pounds of force on it.
Air is 14PSI at sea level, so maximum possible force is 14 PSI x 12" x 12" = 2,016 pounds per square foot. Not realistic here because dust collectors and shop vacs can't pull that much of a vacuum, but you get the idea.
It looks like with a taller bucket that home made solution would work just fine. As a matter of fact, if you sized it to fit a trashcan, you could have it fill a trash bag and make emptying really easy. As well as the DD works, that tall thing sticking above the container just seems like kind of a poor design.
It's possible, but with what I know now I wouldn't attempt a baffle design, I would just buy or make a cyclone. Thanks for watching, cheers!
From an engineering standpoint, why isn't the outlet of the infeed pipe below the baffle?
It just occurred to me that it may be related to the fact that the lower chamber ends up as a vacuum which allows the dust/debris to be forced down once it passes over the slots. Or something along those lines...
I am pretty sure that would get dust swirling around below the baffle, which would defeat the purpose of having the baffle in the first place. Shoudln't be that hard to try out, I'd be interested in seeing what would happen.
Actually, the more I think about it, having the outlet below the baffle wouldn't prevent the finer dust from just eventually flowing back up towards the outlet. With the baffle, once particles get below it, they are completely removed from the air flow. Getting the particles to fall into the slot is the trick, which I guess is the physics happening in the Dust Deputy. I find the whole physics behind this process quite fascinating.
What is the aim here, fine dust collection or debris collection?
It is to separate the fine dust from the larger particles and debris so your shop vac's filter doesn't get clogged.
@@HacknBuild That doesn't make sense, all it will do is pick up some of the debris and it won't remove the sub 5 micron dust particles that cause health problems and it definitely won't remove the really dangerous sub 3 micron particles that once in the lungs stay there. It is easy to pick up the big saw "dust" debris but capturing the really small stuff requires requires a lot of air to be moved.
I installed a single Dust Deputy and found suction value to have dropped by 50 percent from before installing DD and when I checked their advice was to add another bucket and DD in parallel with existing one to receive same suction value as before. Splitting suction into two hoses right before entry in to the two DD’s and then reconnect before entry into the vacuum cleaner. I have not tried adding another DD in parallel with my existing one. If I am using equipment that produces a lot of debris then I disconnect DD and take it off line and vacuum pickup is as before. Has anyone else had the same experience?
can you explain me, why the in tube have to be placed in that position? They can't be placed under? over the container...
There are other designs
ua-cam.com/video/9w8jXS8Fjh8/v-deo.html. This comes in from the side of the bucket.
I was going off the Thein baffle design, that's how he did it originally.
Your cyclone is in the bucket vs the other one on top of the bucket. You'd have better results doing the same with a separate bucket. Or use a barrel or something larger.
Could be. I pretty much put the home brew solution on the shelf and continued using the Dust Deputy since I made the video because I have it and it works well for me. Thanks for watching, cheers!
Awesome use of science; this is a very helpful video!
Everyday science for the workshop. Glad you enjoyed it, thanks for watching!
@@HacknBuild your shop vac lid is on the wrong way around
I know this is just a picky but if you are going to put the magnified scale LCD up so you can see it... It might be wise to not cover that easy to see display with your logo.
Check the followup video. I figured out how to do it better by then. If you go full screen with the video, the display might be more readable. Thanks for watching, cheers.
I will be making one myself
It gets the job done!
You can buy a Chinese copy of the dust deputy off ebay for under $20. Unless you already have the PVC connectors laying around it probably doesn't pay to DIY.
Seems like a lot of work when you can buy a dust collector for $20. If you figure in time and materials where is the savings?
Some people just like making things.
You needed to weigh the vacuum filter before and after.
QHow are you getting on with the new design you mentioned you were working on in Dec17?
I built out a prototype, but it really wasn't much better than the baffle design. I think with some tweaks it could be improved, though. I've been busy lately with boring home improvement projects, but hopefully once those are wrapped up I'll get back to more fun projects (and videos!). Thanks for watching. Cheers!
@Mike Norris Sorry to hear you're disappointed.
Good work!
Thank you! Cheers!
Very goog, congratulations on this work
Thanks, Claudio 👍
I will not trade my Dust Deputy, it can handle all my dust right up to the top of the bucket.
They do work quite well!
can i ask what the benefit from the smaller circle is?
It's an inset lid so it goes inside the bucket. The top circle holds it in place and makes it easy to get on and off. It works a bit like a cork I suppose.
You should have 2 bucket setup
That is coming in part #3 😊
Кольцевой вырез в нижней плите нужно бы сделать поближе к впускной трубе, кроме того, полезно наклонить эту трубу вниз.
i saw the filter cloged with dust
You did?
What vac do you use?
At min 4:45 it says 541.4, ... how did you end up with 546
Pretty sure I put everything into a spreadsheet, so probably things are just getting rounded and the display values don't like up with the underlying numbers. Thanks for watching, cheers!
A very well done empirical comparison. I like your style... I've watched many videos on dust collection and I can tell ya that opinions are varied and somewhat subjective, however facts are facts and that's why I appreciate videos like this. On a side note; I'm sure there is someone out there that is saying to themselves "I'm going to 3D print myself a Dust Deputy". and to be clear: I hate those people :)
Interesting and nicely done
Thanks, Fishman!
I just made one yesterday. *ua-cam.com/video/1wS6NXH9Cmg/v-deo.html&t=* My original version was like yours and once about 4 inches of dust got in the bucket, it lost huge efficiency and started sucking into the vacuum. So... I cut the bottom half of the bucket off. Sat the top half on a piece of plywood and cut the thein baffle directly into the board. Then I attached that board on top of a larger, square container (to interfere with and break up the lower airflow movement under the baffle) and it work brilliant now! The baffle isn't the best configuration, because I didn't research the best shape/size ratio. But even my crude, unmeasured version is many times better than just pipe in a bucket.
Good follow up....thanks
Thanks - there is definitely some improvement with the 2.0 design, but I want to test out a couple different designs that are hopefully even better. Cheers!
I have a hunch that if the thien baffle plate were made out of something very thin that it might increase the efficiency. With a chunk of 3/4" plywood for the baffle, the stream of dust particles hits the wide 3/4" plywood at the end of the slot as it is revolving around. While most of the dust goes down, some amount hits the cross section and creates turbulence. I have a window in mine and the dust makes several revolutions before all of it drops to the bottom. I've thought that if the baffle were made out of thin metal (like 12 or 14 gauge) that it would act more as a knife edge and the cross section for the dust hitting the end of the open slot would be negligible. Just a hunch....
Interesting idea Bruce. It would certainly be worth investigating. A similar effect might be achieved by putting a bevel on the top side of the baffle too.
Yes, I added a bevel at each end of the slot. The bevel is in the opposite direction at each end of the slot to assist in directing the air. .
Did you notice if it works better having the bevel or did you add it from the getgo?
So the point.. where is more efective??
I prefer the cyclone design.
Your gonna need a bigger bucket.
Great. Thanks!
Good Job
Thanks for watching 👍
good review
Glad you liked it. Cheers!
So, bottom line... The Dust Deputy is still the best.
I think so. If you have the money to spend, go for it. If you don't have money, the other options are good if you already have the materials.
@@HacknBuild Thanks the fast reply! I appreciate the work you put into this.