Love nothing more than selecting a few CD's to play on a €300 Yamaha CD6000 5 disc player, I bought from Richer Sounds. I have it digitally connected via Audioquest Cinnamon digital cable to a Denafrips Aries 2 DAC, then played through a Rega Elicit R, to PMC Twenty5.24's. Absolutely great sound. Nice tip of the hat to Hans Beekhuyzen at the end John.
I've been living with a Marantz CD6006 for the past three years and we're still very happy together. I love to listen to CDs and hold the booklet in my hands while I'm at it. I go CD hunting twice a month and my collection has been steadily growing for very little money and I never felt in the mood to try streaming.
I am at a loss to figure out why the physical weight of two dissimilar pieces of equipment should be a factor at all, or basis for other comparisons. After all, an audio amplifier of the general type used on hi-fi stereo (or more) systems will necessarily have a heavy power transformer, heatsinks, etc; while a CD player has nothing intrinsic that weights much at all and it does not require such a heavy frame or chassis.
I ripped all my CDs to flac many year’s ago. Last month I though to myself…. “I really liked my collection of CDs” so I bought an old Sony CD player, went to the attic to get my old collection. It was like meeting my old friends. I remembered every texture, the scratches and stains from long forgotten parties and the beautiful cover arts. The special printings where you can feel the curvature with your fingertips. I’m probably not going to buy new ones but I will never throw them away
agree on that point. That and I still have to re-rip all of mine, as I was an early adopter and ripped them all back when we thought 128kb/s mp3 was sufficient. Oh dear...
I did the same thing a few yea back but suffered a fire and lost them.I was able to the same the drive I stored them on. So, I bought a good external burner, and have being burning them on to Cd's again. Actually I'm having a lot of fun doing it, It reminds when in the late 90's if you had a dual CD burners on your computer you were styling back then. Got the old sharpie out, and having a blast doing it!
Going back to listening to a lot of CD's after years of pretty much only listening to MP3's and streaming, well it's been something of a revelation. Relaxed is the perfect word for it. It's like another extra dose of clarity that just makes it that much nicer to listen to.
I buy CD's and Vinyl, regularly still, I rarely stream to be honest as I like to own my music, not borrow it from a streaming service who can remove it anytime they choose!
Nice review. Saying that the CD60 doesn't feel as substantial as the 40n integrated Amp when you rap your knuckles on it etc. is fair enough. But comparing their weight as a means of deducing build quality is pointless. As far as I know, the CD player doesn't have a heavy toroidal transformer because it has a different function than the amplifier. So it is not a fair or helpful comparison.
Toroidal transformers are smaller, lighter and more efficient than other conventional transformers. The main reason you use Toroidal Transformers is because of the low noise and low electromagnetic interference. This is thanks mainly in part to its shape and symmetry. The amount of magnetic flux that escapes outside the core is low and contained within the donut shape. The result is lower audio distortion and degradation to the sound quality, therefore ensuring that the resulting sound is clean and accurate. His take on this, IMHO, is spot on.
@@yotnit1170 I think you may have missed the point somewhat. There will almost certainly be toroidal transformers in both of the machines, it’s simply that the one in the amp will be very much larger than the one in the CD player. Add to that the array of smoothing caps and the heat sinks together with the heavier gauge metal required to carry it all and you have valid reasons for the amp being heavier. My Musical Fidelity CD player is about 8Kg, where as my amp from the same brand is 23Kg. No way is the CD player less well built. As regards John’s other observations about the missing lights etc, there is a lot more margin to play with in £2 1/2k than there is in £900.
Good point. Not sure why your comment has elicited the responses it has. You are correct, it is comparing apples to oranges. That being said however, if he were to compare the build quality to the other two, which he could have, then he could have made his point. Just my opinion as always.
I’m glad you were able to discern and audible difference between the CD players. I’ve read that a cd transport just reads the digital information and that it’s all down to the DAC and amplifier to how things sound, which makes sense, but I remember when I purchased a £1,000 HD Blue-ray player and thought to myself that I could now get rid of my Lynn Classik CD player, and just use the Blue-ray player, when I wanted to listen to CD’s, but the sound from the Lynn is far superior, even when I use direct mode on both players, into my amplifier, so the DAC in the amp would convert the digital information from the players, rather than their inbuilt DACS. I could hear a big difference in sound, so I guess the circuitry in different players, does influence the sound.
Great topic because I happen to own a late 80's vintage Marantz CD-60. Has TDA-1541 ladder Dacs and the magical everlasting Philps CD swing arm mechanism. Very much appreciate the comments that it's all about what you prefer as being the most important thing. Thanks for doing what you do John !!!
I own the Technics SL-G700 which does both streaming and CD/SACD playback. So, it is using the same DAC, but the CD playback is better sounding. The difference may not be night & day, but it also isn't subtle. And here is the thing about the millions of titles... yes, it is nice to have options but realistically you will only listen to a tiny fraction. Let us say you are 20 years old and you will average listening to 10 new albums a week, every week, until you are 80 years old. Doing the math (60 * 52 * 10) you would only get to 31,200 albums in your lifetime, and when you consider for a lot of your life you will be so busy that getting to 10 a week will be a stretch, many of those albums you will only listen to once. So, realistically, having a CD/LP collection of 700-1500 items will be plenty for 95% of the music loving population.
"I own the Technics SL-G700 which does both streaming and CD/SACD playback. So, it is using the same DAC, but the CD playback is better sounding. The difference may not be night & day, but it also isn't subtle." 👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻 Thank you for sharing this. It's another valuable data point in this discussion.
Hans Beekhuyzen would be pleased with your closing line. Indeed, we all enjoy our music. Thanks for the great video as always. I love and will never part with my CD's ever.
Hi, I’ve a cd11 tribute and the blue sound node you talked about and I came to the same conclusion as you. Both are played through a a11 tribute amp and Dali Oberon 1 speakers. The CD player just sounds better and is my preferred way to listen to my music but sometimes it’s just convenient to use the streamer.
I'm with you on the sound of CD's. When I listen to a CD quality track streaming from Qobuz through Audirvana then into my external DAC, then swap to CD transport into the same DAC at the same volume level, the CD still has the edge for me, it has a more solid sound with much greater bass control and weight but without losing any resolution. I try this every couple of months just for fun and for me the CD still has the edge.
I am a great fan of Ken Ishiwata. He also secretly designed the Sonus Faber Musica amp, which I have, while working for Marantz and it sounds absolutely warm and lovely. I am glad to found your channel, very nice videos. Greetings from germany!
Just unboxed my new CD60 and listening to the Carpenters, so very pleased with the sound. Using an old Arcam A65+ and entry level Infinity speakers on the desktop to get the day started (BW706S2 arriving later today). I have demo'd this CD using my 3700H and Sony 4K player, as well as other equipment, I just thought it must be a bad CD. Now I am feeling emotion and drawn into the music, Karen's voice has beautiful vibrato and a little guitar solo popped up in there I never even noticed and it sounded great, music can really have a powerful effect emotionally when it sounds right. Anyway, just throwing in my 2 cents, I have not streamed this album to compare, but just here to tell you the CD60 sounds amazing, and might be worth it to old peeps like me that have a lot of CD's laying around.
Great choice of music, my friend! Nobody beats the voice of Karen Carpenter! ❤ I've been using my Oppo DV-980H since new in 2007. It's been a wonderful deck! But.... Now I'm now in the market for a new CD deck. I've noticed on occasion a bit of blank spots on some discs. So; the Marantz CD6007 & CD60 are on my radar.
I've just bought a Marantz SA-12SE. As you probably know, it's basically a Ruby SACD Ki as a production model. I've had a CD63 Ki, a CD17 Ki, a Pearl SACD Ki - and now this SA-12. I just love it, it easily surpasses all the previous players I've had. The sound quality is really something. Although it's subtly warmer than the Pearl, slightly less attack - but it's more transparent and more musical. The drawer slowly slides in and out in a positively regal manner!
About 25yrs ago I bought the Marantz CD63 ki sig & thought it was wonderful but after a few years lust got the better of me & I replaced it with the Marantz CD17 ki sig which I too thought was wonderful and still do and still have it. I only use it about once a week but it sounds lush when I do so. Cheers.... 👍
I opened up a remote control from a Cambridge Audio Azur 650r once to clean up some contacts. It has a premium feel to it, metal surface at the top and feels weighty and substantial. Inside the case was the circuit board and the silicone button panel as you'd expect, but also a piece of metal weight that does nothing except to give the unit it's weight. 😃 So really, one could modify any remote control and add some stick-on wheel weights if you enjoy that tactile feeling.
Do vinyl, CD's and stream. We live in a convenience oriented world. Your streaming setups leave a lot to be desired. Love it all! In five years we'll have the option of a neural implant that will make it all obsolete 😁
Was thinking about this just this morning as I played a cd on my system and it sounded fantastic! The present 'giveaway' prices of CDs also makes them really attractive!
I enjoy buying CD's and also enjoy ripping them to .flac for easier transport, but as I'm learning more about "how" to enjoy these two digital formats it seems people lean towards the CD. Why is that? If both sets of data are identical bit for bit why would a laser read 1's and 0's sound better then 1's and 0's streamed into the same DAC have different sound signatures?
@Erwin de Wit thanks for the answer, and the invitation. It's hard to argue about someone hearing the difference, because it is subjective. And if you hear the difference, that's great, continue to have fun with it. But if a digital signal behaved different in different medium, computers would not work. Bits are 1 and 0, binary. Not anything else. I have a hard time understanding how you can reason with anything else.
@@fredrikfyksen the best way to answer your question is to listen to different combinations and make your own mind up. A lot of it is about personal preference.
Am using the Bluesound Node in combination with Feliks Echo mk2 headphone amp and thought I wouldn't need the Earman TrAmp Dac that I used connecting my iPad. I was wrong, without the Earman Dac the sound of the Node was thinner than I was used to. After a few weeks I decided to use the Node just for streaming and the Dac function of the Earman. Everything fell into place now and I couldn't be happier. Headphone is Denon A-HD9200. Keep up the good work, love your channel John.
God, I wish I possessed ears like yours and you explain all those different delicacies so well. Although I do have a recognised hearing issue since an army explosive accident in my 20's (40 years ago) I can still hear differences or recognise a sound I prefer. What I should really get to is we are all different in what we want & need, I personally want a crisper sound for my hearing issues which will change over time. But I still can get a sound to suit but that aside I also enjoy music for music & not too nitpicking over the slighter things. Your enthusiasm shines through thats why I watch.
All interesting points in the Streaming vs Redbook CD comparison. I am just now setting up a new system with both CD and Streaming available. I'm using the Audiolab CDT-9000 which is a transport only that will be feeding the DAC's in a NAD C658, and all streaming will be handled by the NAD C658. I do have quite a few CD's going back all the way to when CD first hit the market back in 80's including some "audiophile" CD's that are master recordings etc... So I'll be doing some comparisons vs streaming. I guess my main question on what you found comparing both formats is . . . did you compare "Hi Rez" streams to the CD? Or was it mostly 16/44.1 streams vs the Cd's? If I were going to guess, I'd think the 24/192 - 24/96 streams would be superior, but I guess I'll do the same comparisons soon to see for myself. Cheers.
I had a CD63 SE and loved it, wish I still had it. But I now have the CD60 and the Model 40N, I agree with all your analyses, I think the CD60 is elegant sounding but can still rock, it covers all bases enough for me. The biggest difference I hear between the 40N DAC and the CD60 is in bass detail, I'm amazed at bass drum textures and hearing bass players bending strings, so many things that I never heard before! I tried streaming Tidal with the 40N but hated the drop in quality compared with CD's played through the DAC coaxially. The accuracy of your review makes me confident to trust any others I see of yours 🙂
i wonder if the laid back sound of the "vintage" marantz is caused by the old readout and dac technology or from aged electronic components like electrolytic capacitors...
Hi John, I agree with you about CD vs. lossless streaming sound quality comparisons. If I have a CD or LP in my collection and I have a preference about listening to the best version, I’ll often take the time to grab it off the shelf and plop it on the platter. So even though I spend most of my time discovering new music through a streaming service, or playing familiar items from my digitized library in Roon, I still prefer listening to other mediums at times. I was wondering about this a while back, fully aware that my 20 year old Rotel RCD-971 still sounds pretty doggone fantastic. What old DAC technology is inside of that thing? And, at the risk of getting flamed here, I’ll also suggest that most of my HDCD-encoded stuff is actually really quite convincing, preferable. Jazz, pop and art music encodings included, but especially anything HDCD released by Reference Records. I know that short-lived technology like this is mostly just a footnote of the past, but so long as my CD Player keeps operating well, i’ll keep feeding the drawer with media from time to time for sure! Keep up the great work!
That was the HDCD player from Rotel that I borrowed from my local audio outlet when my Marantz CD player was on order.It sounded fantastic,I nearly cancelled my Marantz for that instead.Most of my CD collection has the HDCD marking on them.
I bought the Marantz CD60 about a week ago, the built in DAC is almost on the same level as the Schiit Modi DAC, I feel the sound is cleaner from the CD60 but maybe a little more detailed from the Schiit, almost splitting hairs here. The packaging of the Marantz CD60 is 10 times better than the Rotel CD14 mk2 and RCD-1572 mk2, I had to return a Rotel CD-14 mk2 due to a loud humming noise and an RCD-1572 mk2 due to weird car brake sound from the CD mechanism when putting CDs in. I feel the CD60 makes a little more noise from the cd mechanism than the Rotel ones. Overall, I feel that the Marantz CD60 is better built than the Rotel CD players
I have the Rotel CD14 MKII and I ALMOST bought the CD 60 but I decided to save the $100 because the CD 60 had very little in the way of reviews. May I ask which CD player you felt had the best overall sound quality and DAC? I know it’s a lot to ask but I am still within my return window and I would really appreciate a comparison between the two from someone who is passionate about it! THANK YOU!!
@@johncollins1365 I would say the sound quality is almost the same, though having both COAX and optical out on the back, the usb function and headphone jack infront does make it a better deal to go with the Marantz if you want my honest opinion
I had a lot of CD players, modified many .........build some .........but today I often go back to my thirty year old Luxman CD107 DU..........witch I modified somewhat with succes and this one comes closed to analog experience with the right PRAT............by the way it still plays with the original tubes...............
I to have found i prefer the sound of cd's versus streaming, generally (through the latest Blusound Node) but as with vinyl there is a huge difference in the quality of the recording so your milage may vary. Thank you for your content, i always enjoy.
Good day Darko, Thank you Darko Just to let you know that I subscribed to your channel at least Three years ago. I noticed your musical tastes are very similar to my own, of which is one of the reasons why I watch your video's. I like listening to your reviews. I Deeply invested into the CD format many years ago and to this day I know that I made the right decision. Streaming has it's place yes. However CD or Vinyl are my choice. Keep up the Great work and know that you are Appreciated. Kind Regards from Mark
That Rotel piece of kit looks just like my Marantz separates system, the special Ishawta version of the Marantz line that I bought back in 2006. Brushed aluminium, simple lines, and blue illumination behind the buttons. Lovely! And the sound! 👌👍😊
Ich habe einen 1995er Luxman DZ-03 Tube-CD-Player und an dessen warmen, sauberen Klang kommen die heutigen CD-Player überhaupt nicht dran! Er läuft an einem neuen 2022er HighEnd Stereo-Tube-Receiver Magnat MR 780 mit 1995er Quadral AC 4100 4-Wege-Standboxen!
Darko! It took years for me to create what i thought was a digital system that was superior to my CD player.I thought i had made my peace with CD’s and was fully on the digital train - I have Apple Music and use Audirvana on my MacBook Pro and hadn’t listened to a CD in a few years - and then I watched this latest video or yours. I thought, ‘my old CD’s in have boxed up in the storage room can’t sound as good as my Digital system with Audioquest USB cable and Ifi idefender and ipurifier!’ So dragged a couple CD’S out of storage and compared them to the iTunes stream and Audirvana digital tracks and wouldn’t you know it…. They definitely sounded more transparent and natural. Maybe i convinced myself the digital sounded better because i didn’t want the hassle of CD’s.
@@davidchingching167 I know, right? The “digital advocates” had me convinced that my life would be so much easier if I ripped my whole collection onto a hard drive, got the appropriate cabling, bought a digital streamer or computer, found the best player to use (if using a computer), download the app (if using a streamer) and then (on and on). I’ve come to really appreciate the simplicity of my CD player. It gets me listening to music more and farting around less.
Love the review. I have a ton of CDs but since I got a Bluesound vault and pulled them all onto that, plus networked to my NAD M33, I can’t imagine going back to buying CDs. I can’t tell you precisely WHY, but it seems the two viable approaches for me are network/stream and vinyl for physical media.
So glad you mentioned the CD63 this is still my CD player today, purchased in 1996 I think. I've been thinking about upgrading and I was curious to how old cd players compare to their modern day equivalent.
I have a Marantz CD6006 and listened to it through analog output for some time. It had a pleasing warm sound but i felt something was missing. I was tempted to buy more a expensive Marantz CDP but they all lack CD-Text. So i hooked it up to my Musical Fidelity V90-DAC (coax). And this combination works great for me. Better separation and detail.
There are two factors merged, which should be separated. 1 CD versus stream. 2 signal processing optimized for Redbook versus bit perfect DAC. How does the Cambridge CNX with lossless streaming via Qobuz sound, compared to CD player? I guess it can compete, since the processing is good for 16/44.
What I'd like to see is an overview of universal disc spinners. I have a decent collection of both movies and music on silver discs. I currently use a single machine (Arcam FMJ) as the hub of my system, but it's up for replacement and there seems to be precious few options out there.
I've been listening to my Denon CDC-A110 for 2 months, it's the best I've ever heard. With analog outs to a Schiit Jotunheim 2 and Audeze LCD-X, it always brings tears to my eyes. Then, I stop thinking about the price, and just enjoy the music.
I too have long thought that CDs sound better than streaming music until I discovered that the network switch was the cause. After replacing with a business Cisco switch and a 12 Volt low noise with EMI RFI Filter power supply, this has been completely upgraded.
I don’t want to brag but it would be interesting to see the explanation from protocol point of view. TCP is reliable and deterministic so I would be surprised to see packets lost or coming in of out of order to the Dac. I can understand more or less data available from CD depending on the quality of the drive subsystem, which influence the sound quality. But never seen valid explanation for network devices. Unless we are taking into account analog domain and dirty stuff not filtered out. But then again - it is not a network/protocol thing.
@@Marszczak I use the Cisco SG250-08 switch with a AUDIOPHONICS LPSU25 Linear Regulated Power Supply EMI RFI Filter 12V 1.25A 25VA. This as a replacement of a Sitecom switch with a standard powersupply.
Well that was very interesting. I had the base model of the CD-63 (not the SE version you have here John) for over two decades. It's still going strong - I gave it to a friend last year. I'm hoping to give the KI Signature version a listen at some point, which was by all accounts particularly good fun. I'd rather download FLAC these days than buy a CD (for environmental and storage reasons), but occasionally I want something that's just not available to download. And then I do get it on CD.
There are as many streaming tracks that sound better than CD so it's important to compare the exact same tracks. Like comparing vinyl pressings, it all depends on who did the mastering and production and how it was converted. It is difficult to find the true information on where the original stream was derived from. So it's not simply CD sounds better than streaming as bits should be bits.
Another great video, John. Here’s the question I was hoping you’d address: what sort of differences would you anticipate possibly hearing between all three of these CD players if you compared them as transports only (digital out to a common DAC)? Thanks!
At the end it should all be down to the DAC quality on the cd and the streaming players, assuming the content has the exact same information (0s and 1s).
I like this trend back to physical media. But I’m also listening to albums, not tracks or playlists - so this “back to the 80’s” approach works for me. I wonder how CD transport & external dac solutions works vs modern CD “integrated’s” like these lovely Japanese offerings?
Way back in the 90’s , the high end store I worked, developed a CD player using a high end Philips transport ( can’t remember the model # ) and we also sold Krell Digital. The Boss, Eric Hudgens, said that the player would go into such a high amount of error correction “ jitter “ that it would sound “ warmer “ to our customers . I have all of it running through my Krell system and love the music. Never had to reboot my VPI TT. Love your channel
I've recently bought a Rotel Ra1592mk2 and RCD 1572mk2. I find that using balanced XLR cables (and obviously the cd's dac) sounds a lot better than a coaxial cable and the amp's dac. Admittedly the XLR cables are a lot more expensive than the coaxial but the difference is quite pronounced. Assuming they both use the same updated T.I. dacs, do you think balanced input/ouputs sound inherently better than using the cd player as a transport?
Ofcourse it does Darko...doh. Streaming uses algorithmic processes to churn the music to your ears, where as CDs give you the bit for bit music as it was mastered by a studio engineer. No compression no added digital artifacts. Just plain music as intended by the artist. Buy a CD and use streaming as an audition platform before you buy... support vinyl and CD and physical media. Dont become slaves to the subscription services who want to rent out your favourite music to you...
I also agree and think CDs and certain CD players have the edge over streaming in comparable conditions. But as you pointed out in your other video, CDs still have many advantages over streaming and often vinyl (which I also love and collect). I have an old Rotel RCD-865BX that I actually found for $6 at the thrift store that has a beautiful sound, and when connected to the RME ADI-2-DAC (FS) via coaxial it also sounds wonders. Long (er) live CD! 💿
I'm totally with you, still not prepared to give up on CDs, but for convenience, my entire CD collection is ripped to Flac and stored on my home network, so I can stream locally to my Node 2. Someone is going to tell me I am missing out on some sound quality, I'm sure, but it works just fine for me. II enjoyed the little nod to Hans Beekhuyzen at the end there. Does he know you borrowed his tagline?
I made the fatal error of ripping all cds to apple mp3 (whatever the short term was) . Started to rip to flac but realised time restraints. Decided to wipe all from comp, free up space and go back to cd. Arcam cd72 and marantz cd7300 doing what they do best.
I think the issue of the clocking of the digital data stream bears more investigation. The pathway from the source (lets say Qobuz) through the internet to the home (cable modem, ethernet, wifi) to the streamer and to the dac has many handshakes along the way. In my setup, I send the digital data from my streamer to the asynchronous USB input of my dac (RME ADI-2 DAC). The RME therefore controls the clock (and has a very accurate one). My belief is that this negates many sources of jitter along the way. Playing a cd is a much more direct pathway and doesn’t suffer from as many data handshakes along the way as streaming.
Never ditched CD's... I use all 3 modes (Stream, Vinyl and CD's) all through my Moon Neo Ace, I have no complaints on any versions, Qobuz can vary sometimes (not sure why) CD's are still the favoured mode and i've tried comparison between DACs in the Moon Ace via Coaxial, Analogue and Optical. Analogue sounds by far the most natural sound....using an Arcam UDP 411, not the very best CD, maybe a CD transport alone would sound better with the Ace DAC ? but i'm happy with what I hear...isn't that what its all about?
So what exactly is the difference between the CD60 and the CD 6007? And which of Marantz's models play SACD and DSD Cds, and perhaps even BluRay? And what is the best amp and speaker to pair this with?
to carry on looking for ‘that sound’ I played my wife a 30 second sound byte from the same song “crime of the century” by supertramp. I played the LP on a pimped up Rega p3 with a mp500 cartridge, a chrome tape recording on my naganichi c3 cassette recorder of the lossless song streamed from Apple, the same source recorded onto my B77 revox R2R, the CD, and finally streamed. I asked my wife to listen and make a rescission of best to worse (what ever that means) so did one stand out to you…..did one make you want to listen longer, enjoy it more….what were your thoughts. Apart from thinking I’m bonkers she said……‘I preferred the version played 3rd’ so my mid 70’s B77 R2R won through. It’s strange how we all have a listening experience and although she said ‘they all sound good’ the lossless recording sounded better via a tape (albeit a good tape) being dragged over a magnetic head, through a analogue input of my amp.
In my teenage Years I got just that same vintage marantz CD Player. A cd63 se, if I recall it right. And I have to say, I agree. I tried to exchange it with newer, "more detailled, but also sterile" sounding players when Denon produced their Lineup in the 2000s, went happily back to the old marantz. It got replaced only by its own successors, the "newer vintage" models CD17 mk2, and the CD14, which I found 3 years ago for an incredible price. Talking of a few hundreds of dollars, not thousands. The cd14 is now happily playing in my high end chain, connected to ayon auris, kronzillas, and wilson sasha 2s... It certainly still feels like it belongs there. And it gives its competing Linn Akkurate ds3 Streamer a run for the Money... If i want the maximum of details, i choose the Linn and hi res, but if I want the sound to go really deep and touch me in a natural way, I fumble around with those not so convenient discs. Its just... hollistically, the more natural experience. And: the cd63se... that 12 pound plastic bomber, is still in our family, playing in my fathers girlfriends house... Talking about sustainability, there you go!
As a result of this video I decided to do my first ever direct comparison between a track on a CD and the same track through Spotify (Elzabetta Brusa's Fireworks, on Naxos). The digital signal is put through the same external Rega DAC. The difference was clear, but not as large as I had expected. Streaming produced a slightly brighter and more open sound, and seemed a bit vague and splashy compared with the CD, which was more explicit and solid in delivery. But the noticeable thing was that the CD sounded rather wooden and constrained, and almost mechanical to the ear. I wonder whether streaming's softening of the sound made it seem less effortful and more fluid and free, perhaps like LPs do, when compared with the precision and objectivity of CD. Of course, on a different track there could be different results, and I suspect the sound of some Spotify files is well below what they could be. It may be worth doing a comparison of the same album on CD, LP, and streaming, to see what the differences are between the three. Thanks for the video.
I have a high-end Cambridge blue ray player, cd's sound great in it . I also have progressive dvd player's from the 90's that I buy all the time at goodwill and flea markets, both Sony's and pioneers. They sound just as good as the 1500.00 dollar Cambridge. I buy them for five to twenty dollars.
Great information as always. If an external DAC is used in place of the internal DAC on the Node and the same external DAC was used with the CD players would the same comparisons still hold between CDs and streaming?
Love my CDs especially classical. Listened to the blue sound thing at a dealers last week v a Marantz 6007 CD and it underwhelmed me. Nowhere near as good as my little iFi Zen DAC signature mk 2. The winner was a Linn LP12 playing three 50 year old classical albums. Beautiful imaging and so exciting. Showing my age I guess. Shame the budget Linn cost more than my Skoda is worth…… I may dig out my 40 year old Yamaha cassette deck next…Dolby C and all that. Then I can play all the cassettes I made with my mates at Uni in the late 70s……..
John I sold my mint condition CD63 Ki Signature a little while back(had it from new) and I am now suffering sellers remorse.Even tried to get it back but no luck.I really enjoy warm lush sound and the KI had that in spades.What I get from this review is that the closest sounding streamer to the 63 is your Node,which cannot be too different to my 63KI(though I have never heard the vanilla 63).Was looking at buying the Node,that way I can stream and also attach a NAD cd player I have to the Node to enjoy the warm sound of the Node's DAC.Thank you for your reviews John,really.
I've been a user of the Rotel CD11 Tribute for quite a few months and the dac in it sounds really really good. It is an upgrade to the Allo DACs (inside Boss2, Katana), which i think already sounds substantially better than the usually thin and harsh sounding DACs in the market.
I'm pretty sure it's not fair to say streaming is weaker sounding than CDs when using two different DACs. A better way would be to do a level matched blind test with the two sources and one DAC. 😉 As always, thank you for the video.
I upgraded my old 1000€ setup to a Marantz 40 + Metas and just recently found my old but trusted Sony CD player broke on me due to old age. I'm not sure if I will ever replace it though. The space it takes is pretty significant and I'm living on minimalist space of less than 20sqm. In an ideal world, Spotify lossless would roll out in Germany in the next 12 months, because I don't like the fragmentation of having multiple streaming services, and many releases are just not on other platforms - so that Vinyl and Spotify could satisfy all my needs ... But that's a whole other story.
It seems few reviewers state whether the CD player/s being reviewed are compatible with playing CDR discs. I have made hundreds of bit to bit copies at normal rate recorded on blank media with my now buried JVC and Marantz recorders. It is of importance to me and maybe some others while searching for a new cd player. As always, thank you for the review.I
I bought the marantz CD 60 a month ago and was blown away by the sound quality of my CDs using that CD player. Especially, purple rain..I don't even have the remastered cd and it sounded so good, that streaming just can't compare to it.
I have a SA15 S2 CD player and I use its dac which is great with a NA 7004.Marantz is the thing for me in stéréo Hifi and They match a PM 11s1 that has a smooth tube like player but fed with very good cables and plug etc for electricity (Wibex,Oyaide ).It simply bring them to a higher level
I think you said it: "Price appropriate". I've seen many posts on Audiogon saying that to equal or best the sound from a good $900 CD player (or higher) you have to spend about $4000 on your streaming front end (streamer and DAC) and also have to replace your Internet router with something better as well. So, yes, streaming gives us access to thousands and thousands of albums, but for a significantly lower price point we can get equal or better sound quality by playing our own CDs. Of course, there's nothing wrong with spending $4000 or more on your digital front end to get good results if that budget is within your means and desires. For me, I think streaming sounds "good enough" for music discovery and general listening, but if I find something I really like, I'll buy the CD (or vinyl). Also, note that the delta between the CD player and the streamer becomes even less if you feed the CD player into your $2000 DAC - the one you bought so your streaming sounds as good as or better than a CD.
@@ProffAndy they not only replace their Internet router with one that is "better", they add a special Ethernet switch of some kind and they buy all new linear power supplies for everything, plus a power conditioner to plug everything in, and high end Ethernet cables. The goal is to remove as much inherent electrical noise and voltage variances from ever being an issue with getting a good data stream into their streamer and DAC. Can they hear a difference? They say they can. But for me, I'm happy to spend about $1000 on a streamer and $1000 on a DAC and just be happy listening to the music. In my den on my AVR I'm using a cheap $79 WiiM Mini streamer to feed it's internal DAC via an optical cable and to me, it sounds fine, as least on that system with the Wharfedale bookshelf speakers I'm using. In my living room I want something more price appropriate to the rest of the gear that ekes out more performance. Is it worth it? Well maybe. This is basically a fun hobby and lets us appreciate music very well. I have friends that spend more than $1500 on lenses for their amateur photography passion, so to each their own.
I think that if the DAC sounds different, it is either the digital transport or the power supply for those chips. So feeding the DAC of the CD connected analog to the 40N with the digital signal of the Node N130 would sound better than the Heos streamed song directly going through the Marantz? If that happens they should improve that with a better edition. I have a NE8005 and an SA8005 from Marantz, and the NE sounds a bit better (timing is better), but the difference is so tiny, that there could be other side effects. It is a pity they did not have SACD transport in the new CD player like in the 30N, but that is a bit higher in price. The only comparable to the Marantz CD 60 is the new Denon DCD-900NE CD. It would be interesting to compare. Marantz has higher numbers for lower classes now, so if they do not name it CD40 but CD60 it seems to be matching a lower class in power supply and housing materials.
I still use a NAD cd player and hooked it up with audioquest cinnamon toslink to my Metrum Acoustic dac… wow just wow!! Better the rca to the amplifier… CD sounds amazing!! And it always works!
You discussed considerations as a factor, but I didn't hear you mention the prohibited price of $1000. Most people would consider that too high of a price. There must be decent cd players in the $300 to $500? I use my 4k Sony player connected to a onyko receiver and cd playback sounds pretty good. I'm aware that it is nothing like the Marantz cd player but again there must be a cd player that will give you a decent playback?
Hi John. I have done countless demos of CD vs Streaming and CD always wins. It has a 3d sound field that streaming just does not seem to muster. I have heard streamers up to around £10k and a £5k CD player will walk all over it. This included hi-res streams vs CD too. Something is lost with streaming. I hope we do not end up taking a sonic step back, all in the name of convenience.
If your streamer can’t produce a “3d sound field “ , there’s something wrong with other parts of your system or the streamer . Streamers typically don’t suffer from imaging issues in my experience when used with a good DAC .
Awesome comparison, cheers! You've said in the past that the DAC and transport help each other out - is that the reason why the players beat the streamer? If so, does it make sense to buy a transport and DAC separately?
What are those short “ad breaks” in your videos ? There is no actual ad, just some frames from the video with “ad break” written on them and a sound of electric zapping.
I stream, but if I really want to sit and listen, I still enjoy putting a disc on. Funny enough, I use a Marantz CD67 mkII, which I prefer the sound to than many new CD players.
Hi John, Dutch hifi reviewers commented that the DAC inside the 40N is not the best, in terms of sound quality. Neither is the HEOS streamer in terms of functionality. I would prefer to go for separates: Music Fidelity M2Si, SMSL D300 and Argon Audio Solo (or Node) and save some money. Or go for the Rega Elicit MkV with integrated DAC and separate streamer and spend a bit more but have amplification at a totally different level. In the streaming vs CD sound quality discussion the DAC plays a crucial role and that is were the Marantz 40N is a bit of disappointment, especially because Denon (A110) and Marantz (30 CD) know how to implement DACs.
What's the take away from this? Any clue of an explanation? CD are still digital audio after all so we can wonder if it's about the dac, or is it really related to the "streaming part"? Is there still the same liveliness when listening from the USB flash drive?
You are 100% right. I've passed the last month lisening to a bunch of different setup, including high resolution from Tidal hifi plus. Started with wiim, then bluesound node, using a DX3 pro+ dac to realise that my roku 4k stick sounds better then both streamer. And then i tried a cd from a blueray, going HDMI in to my tv, then optical to the dx3 and it sounds even better then from Tidal. And i even compared with full mqa songs from the bluesound node to a topping E50 wich Fully unfold mqa and it didn't sound better then cd from my blueray. And it had to be master quality songs cause if it was CD quality it sounded worst then from my roku. So now, i'm wondering if a cd player like the rotel Will sound better then my blueray cause the dx3 is a really good sounding dac for me cause i like clean sound.
Absolutely right, CDs are a real bargain right now as well, pick them up for 50p in charity shops. There's a lot of junk, but good recordings are there, Naxos, Deutche Gramaphon, EMI etc can all be found easily.
Love nothing more than selecting a few CD's to play on a €300 Yamaha CD6000 5 disc player, I bought from Richer Sounds. I have it digitally connected via Audioquest Cinnamon digital cable to a Denafrips Aries 2 DAC, then played through a Rega Elicit R, to PMC Twenty5.24's. Absolutely great sound. Nice tip of the hat to Hans Beekhuyzen at the end John.
Same way I feel on my 10k Wadia cd plyer and my top loading vacuum tube cd player!
I've been living with a Marantz CD6006 for the past three years and we're still very happy together. I love to listen to CDs and hold the booklet in my hands while I'm at it. I go CD hunting twice a month and my collection has been steadily growing for very little money and I never felt in the mood to try streaming.
I love your presentation style and down to earth attitude, probably one of the best audio channels bar none. Thank you always.
I am at a loss to figure out why the physical weight of two dissimilar pieces of equipment should be a factor at all, or basis for other comparisons. After all, an audio amplifier of the general type used on hi-fi stereo (or more) systems will necessarily have a heavy power transformer, heatsinks, etc; while a CD player has nothing intrinsic that weights much at all and it does not require such a heavy frame or chassis.
I ripped all my CDs to flac many year’s ago. Last month I though to myself…. “I really liked my collection of CDs” so I bought an old Sony CD player, went to the attic to get my old collection. It was like meeting my old friends. I remembered every texture, the scratches and stains from long forgotten parties and the beautiful cover arts. The special printings where you can feel the curvature with your fingertips. I’m probably not going to buy new ones but I will never throw them away
agree on that point. That and I still have to re-rip all of mine, as I was an early adopter and ripped them all back when we thought 128kb/s mp3 was sufficient. Oh dear...
I did the same thing a few yea back but suffered a fire and lost them.I was able to the same the drive I stored them on. So, I bought a good external burner, and have being burning them on to Cd's again. Actually I'm having a lot of fun doing it, It reminds when in the late 90's if you had a dual CD burners on your computer you were styling back then. Got the old sharpie out, and having a blast doing it!
Going back to listening to a lot of CD's after years of pretty much only listening to MP3's and streaming, well it's been something of a revelation. Relaxed is the perfect word for it. It's like another extra dose of clarity that just makes it that much nicer to listen to.
I buy CD's and Vinyl, regularly still, I rarely stream to be honest as I like to own my music, not borrow it from a streaming service who can remove it anytime they choose!
Nice hat tip at the end to Hans Beekhuyzen.
Nice review. Saying that the CD60 doesn't feel as substantial as the 40n integrated Amp when you rap your knuckles on it etc. is fair enough. But comparing their weight as a means of deducing build quality is pointless. As far as I know, the CD player doesn't have a heavy toroidal transformer because it has a different function than the amplifier. So it is not a fair or helpful comparison.
Companies have been known to add weights to products to take advantage of perceived value.
Toroidal transformers are smaller, lighter and more efficient than other conventional transformers. The main reason you use Toroidal Transformers is because of the low noise and low electromagnetic interference. This is thanks mainly in part to its shape and symmetry. The amount of magnetic flux that escapes outside the core is low and contained within the donut shape. The result is lower audio distortion and degradation to the sound quality, therefore ensuring that the resulting sound is clean and accurate. His take on this, IMHO, is spot on.
@@yotnit1170 I think you may have missed the point somewhat. There will almost certainly be toroidal transformers in both of the machines, it’s simply that the one in the amp will be very much larger than the one in the CD player. Add to that the array of smoothing caps and the heat sinks together with the heavier gauge metal required to carry it all and you have valid reasons for the amp being heavier.
My Musical Fidelity CD player is about 8Kg, where as my amp from the same brand is 23Kg. No way is the CD player less well built.
As regards John’s other observations about the missing lights etc, there is a lot more margin to play with in £2 1/2k than there is in £900.
Linn ikemi 4.0 k.g. but sound auiophile.
Good point. Not sure why your comment has elicited the responses it has. You are correct, it is comparing apples to oranges.
That being said however, if he were to compare the build quality to the other two, which he could have, then he could have made his point. Just my opinion as always.
I’m glad you were able to discern and audible difference between the CD players. I’ve read that a cd transport just reads the digital information and that it’s all down to the DAC and amplifier to how things sound, which makes sense, but I remember when I purchased a £1,000 HD Blue-ray player and thought to myself that I could now get rid of my Lynn Classik CD player, and just use the Blue-ray player, when I wanted to listen to CD’s, but the sound from the Lynn is far superior, even when I use direct mode on both players, into my amplifier, so the DAC in the amp would convert the digital information from the players, rather than their inbuilt DACS. I could hear a big difference in sound, so I guess the circuitry in different players, does influence the sound.
I agree although it’s Linn not Lynn. 🤪
@@Roamany-Jones I think auto correct decided to change it, without me realising 😄
I love it when you get an old bit of gear out and compare it to modern HiFi.
CDs are so underrated these days. People actually think they are outdated tech, when they do indeed sound the best.
Absolutely
They do one thing and they do it well, which is play CDs. One of the most mature technologies we have.
Great topic because I happen to own a late 80's vintage Marantz CD-60. Has TDA-1541 ladder Dacs and the magical everlasting Philps CD swing arm mechanism. Very much appreciate the comments that it's all about what you prefer as being the most important thing. Thanks for doing what you do John !!!
I own the Technics SL-G700 which does both streaming and CD/SACD playback. So, it is using the same DAC, but the CD playback is better sounding. The difference may not be night & day, but it also isn't subtle.
And here is the thing about the millions of titles... yes, it is nice to have options but realistically you will only listen to a tiny fraction. Let us say you are 20 years old and you will average listening to 10 new albums a week, every week, until you are 80 years old. Doing the math (60 * 52 * 10) you would only get to 31,200 albums in your lifetime, and when you consider for a lot of your life you will be so busy that getting to 10 a week will be a stretch, many of those albums you will only listen to once. So, realistically, having a CD/LP collection of 700-1500 items will be plenty for 95% of the music loving population.
"I own the Technics SL-G700 which does both streaming and CD/SACD playback. So, it is using the same DAC, but the CD playback is better sounding. The difference may not be night & day, but it also isn't subtle."
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Thank you for sharing this. It's another valuable data point in this discussion.
Hans Beekhuyzen would be pleased with your closing line. Indeed, we all enjoy our music. Thanks for the great video as always. I love and will never part with my CD's ever.
Hi, I’ve a cd11 tribute and the blue sound node you talked about and I came to the same conclusion as you. Both are played through a a11 tribute amp and Dali Oberon 1 speakers. The CD player just sounds better and is my preferred way to listen to my music but sometimes it’s just convenient to use the streamer.
👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻
Thank you for sharing this. Another valuable data point in this discussion.
I'm with you on the sound of CD's. When I listen to a CD quality track streaming from Qobuz through Audirvana then into my external DAC, then swap to CD transport into the same DAC at the same volume level, the CD still has the edge for me, it has a more solid sound with much greater bass control and weight but without losing any resolution. I try this every couple of months just for fun and for me the CD still has the edge.
I am a great fan of Ken Ishiwata. He also secretly designed the Sonus Faber Musica amp, which I have, while working for Marantz and it sounds absolutely warm and lovely. I am glad to found your channel, very nice videos. Greetings from germany!
Just unboxed my new CD60 and listening to the Carpenters, so very pleased with the sound. Using an old Arcam A65+ and entry level Infinity speakers on the desktop to get the day started (BW706S2 arriving later today). I have demo'd this CD using my 3700H and Sony 4K player, as well as other equipment, I just thought it must be a bad CD. Now I am feeling emotion and drawn into the music, Karen's voice has beautiful vibrato and a little guitar solo popped up in there I never even noticed and it sounded great, music can really have a powerful effect emotionally when it sounds right. Anyway, just throwing in my 2 cents, I have not streamed this album to compare, but just here to tell you the CD60 sounds amazing, and might be worth it to old peeps like me that have a lot of CD's laying around.
Great choice of music, my friend! Nobody beats the voice of Karen Carpenter! ❤ I've been using my Oppo DV-980H since new in 2007. It's been a wonderful deck! But.... Now I'm now in the market for a new CD deck. I've noticed on occasion a bit of blank spots on some discs. So; the Marantz CD6007 & CD60 are on my radar.
I've just bought a Marantz SA-12SE. As you probably know, it's basically a Ruby SACD Ki as a production model.
I've had a CD63 Ki, a CD17 Ki, a Pearl SACD Ki - and now this SA-12. I just love it, it easily surpasses all the previous players I've had. The sound quality is really something. Although it's subtly warmer than the Pearl, slightly less attack - but it's more transparent and more musical.
The drawer slowly slides in and out in a positively regal manner!
About 25yrs ago I bought the Marantz CD63 ki sig & thought it was wonderful but after a few years lust got the better of me & I replaced it with the Marantz CD17 ki sig which I too thought was wonderful and still do and still have it. I only use it about once a week but it sounds lush when I do so. Cheers.... 👍
I opened up a remote control from a Cambridge Audio Azur 650r once to clean up some contacts. It has a premium feel to it, metal surface at the top and feels weighty and substantial. Inside the case was the circuit board and the silicone button panel as you'd expect, but also a piece of metal weight that does nothing except to give the unit it's weight. 😃 So really, one could modify any remote control and add some stick-on wheel weights if you enjoy that tactile feeling.
Another great episode. Fantastic content. Can't go wrong with Marantz or Rotel...
Do vinyl, CD's and stream. We live in a convenience oriented world. Your streaming setups leave a lot to be desired. Love it all! In five years we'll have the option of a neural implant that will make it all obsolete 😁
Get the music ear worms already without that step change…..
Was thinking about this just this morning as I played a cd on my system and it sounded fantastic! The present 'giveaway' prices of CDs also makes them really attractive!
I enjoy buying CD's and also enjoy ripping them to .flac for easier transport, but as I'm learning more about "how" to enjoy these two digital formats it seems people lean towards the CD. Why is that? If both sets of data are identical bit for bit why would a laser read 1's and 0's sound better then 1's and 0's streamed into the same DAC have different sound signatures?
I am also interested in a FLAC comparison. Is there also a bigger difference in music sound by using higher end DACs? Thank you
It won't sound different, because bits 1 and 0s, not magic.
@@fredrikfyksen you need to listen to John’s latest podcast…
@Erwin de Wit thanks for the answer, and the invitation.
It's hard to argue about someone hearing the difference, because it is subjective. And if you hear the difference, that's great, continue to have fun with it.
But if a digital signal behaved different in different medium, computers would not work. Bits are 1 and 0, binary. Not anything else. I have a hard time understanding how you can reason with anything else.
@@fredrikfyksen the best way to answer your question is to listen to different combinations and make your own mind up. A lot of it is about personal preference.
Am using the Bluesound Node in combination with Feliks Echo mk2 headphone amp and thought I wouldn't need the Earman TrAmp Dac that I used connecting my iPad. I was wrong, without the Earman Dac the sound of the Node was thinner than I was used to. After a few weeks I decided to use the Node just for streaming and the Dac function of the Earman. Everything fell into place now and I couldn't be happier. Headphone is Denon A-HD9200. Keep up the good work, love your channel John.
God, I wish I possessed ears like yours and you explain all those different delicacies so well. Although I do have a recognised hearing issue since an army explosive accident in my 20's (40 years ago) I can still hear differences or recognise a sound I prefer. What I should really get to is we are all different in what we want & need, I personally want a crisper sound for my hearing issues which will change over time. But I still can get a sound to suit but that aside I also enjoy music for music & not too nitpicking over the slighter things. Your enthusiasm shines through thats why I watch.
All interesting points in the Streaming vs Redbook CD comparison. I am just now setting up a new system with both CD and Streaming available. I'm using the Audiolab CDT-9000 which is a transport only that will be feeding the DAC's in a NAD C658, and all streaming will be handled by the NAD C658. I do have quite a few CD's going back all the way to when CD first hit the market back in 80's including some "audiophile" CD's that are master recordings etc... So I'll be doing some comparisons vs streaming.
I guess my main question on what you found comparing both formats is . . . did you compare "Hi Rez" streams to the CD? Or was it mostly 16/44.1 streams vs the Cd's? If I were going to guess, I'd think the 24/192 - 24/96 streams would be superior, but I guess I'll do the same comparisons soon to see for myself.
Cheers.
I had a CD63 SE and loved it, wish I still had it. But I now have the CD60 and the Model 40N, I agree with all your analyses, I think the CD60 is elegant sounding but can still rock, it covers all bases enough for me. The biggest difference I hear between the 40N DAC and the CD60 is in bass detail, I'm amazed at bass drum textures and hearing bass players bending strings, so many things that I never heard before! I tried streaming Tidal with the 40N but hated the drop in quality compared with CD's played through the DAC coaxially. The accuracy of your review makes me confident to trust any others I see of yours 🙂
i wonder if the laid back sound of the "vintage" marantz is caused by the old readout and dac technology or from aged electronic components like electrolytic capacitors...
Hi John, I agree with you about CD vs. lossless streaming sound quality comparisons. If I have a CD or LP in my collection and I have a preference about listening to the best version, I’ll often take the time to grab it off the shelf and plop it on the platter. So even though I spend most of my time discovering new music through a streaming service, or playing familiar items from my digitized library in Roon, I still prefer listening to other mediums at times. I was wondering about this a while back, fully aware that my 20 year old Rotel RCD-971 still sounds pretty doggone fantastic. What old DAC technology is inside of that thing? And, at the risk of getting flamed here, I’ll also suggest that most of my HDCD-encoded stuff is actually really quite convincing, preferable. Jazz, pop and art music encodings included, but especially anything HDCD released by Reference Records. I know that short-lived technology like this is mostly just a footnote of the past, but so long as my CD Player keeps operating well, i’ll keep feeding the drawer with media from time to time for sure!
Keep up the great work!
That was the HDCD player from Rotel that I borrowed from my local audio outlet when my Marantz CD player was on order.It sounded fantastic,I nearly cancelled my Marantz for that instead.Most of my CD collection has the HDCD marking on them.
I bought the Marantz CD60 about a week ago, the built in DAC is almost on the same level as the Schiit Modi DAC, I feel the sound is cleaner from the CD60 but maybe a little more detailed from the Schiit, almost splitting hairs here.
The packaging of the Marantz CD60 is 10 times better than the Rotel CD14 mk2 and RCD-1572 mk2, I had to return a Rotel CD-14 mk2 due to a loud humming noise and an RCD-1572 mk2 due to weird car brake sound from the CD mechanism when putting CDs in.
I feel the CD60 makes a little more noise from the cd mechanism than the Rotel ones.
Overall, I feel that the Marantz CD60 is better built than the Rotel CD players
I have the Rotel CD14 MKII and I ALMOST bought the CD 60 but I decided to save the $100 because the CD 60 had very little in the way of reviews. May I ask which CD player you felt had the best overall sound quality and DAC? I know it’s a lot to ask but I am still within my return window and I would really appreciate a comparison between the two from someone who is passionate about it! THANK YOU!!
@@johncollins1365 I would say the sound quality is almost the same, though having both COAX and optical out on the back, the usb function and headphone jack infront does make it a better deal to go with the Marantz if you want my honest opinion
@@ragkong thank you so much for taking the time to reply! I sincerely appreciate it. That is useful information indeed. Once again, thank you
I had a lot of CD players, modified many .........build some .........but today I often go back to my thirty year old Luxman CD107 DU..........witch I modified somewhat with succes and this one comes closed to analog experience with the right PRAT............by the way it still plays with the original tubes...............
I to have found i prefer the sound of cd's versus streaming, generally (through the latest Blusound Node) but as with vinyl there is a huge difference in the quality of the recording so your milage may vary.
Thank you for your content, i always enjoy.
Good day Darko,
Thank you Darko
Just to let you know that I subscribed to your channel at least Three years ago.
I noticed your musical tastes are very similar to my own, of which is one of the reasons why I watch your video's.
I like listening to your reviews.
I Deeply invested into the CD format many years ago and to this day I know that I made the right decision.
Streaming has it's place yes. However CD or Vinyl are my choice.
Keep up the Great work and know that you are Appreciated.
Kind Regards from Mark
That Rotel piece of kit looks just like my Marantz separates system, the special Ishawta version of the Marantz line that I bought back in 2006. Brushed aluminium, simple lines, and blue illumination behind the buttons. Lovely! And the sound! 👌👍😊
Love the sound of 16bit audio quality
Ich habe einen 1995er Luxman DZ-03 Tube-CD-Player und an dessen warmen, sauberen Klang kommen die heutigen CD-Player überhaupt nicht dran! Er läuft an einem neuen 2022er HighEnd Stereo-Tube-Receiver Magnat MR 780 mit 1995er Quadral AC 4100 4-Wege-Standboxen!
Darko! It took years for me to create what i thought was a digital system that was superior to my CD player.I thought i had made my peace with CD’s and was fully on the digital train - I have Apple Music and use Audirvana on my MacBook Pro and hadn’t listened to a CD in a few years - and then I watched this latest video or yours. I thought, ‘my old CD’s in have boxed up in the storage room can’t sound as good as my Digital system with Audioquest USB cable and Ifi idefender and ipurifier!’ So dragged a couple CD’S out of storage and compared them to the iTunes stream and Audirvana digital tracks and wouldn’t you know it…. They definitely sounded more transparent and natural. Maybe i convinced myself the digital sounded better because i didn’t want the hassle of CD’s.
What's the hassle?
Press open, insert cd press play.
Difficult procedure.
@@davidchingching167 I know, right? The “digital advocates” had me convinced that my life would be so much easier if I ripped my whole collection onto a hard drive, got the appropriate cabling, bought a digital streamer or computer, found the best player to use (if using a computer), download the app (if using a streamer) and then (on and on). I’ve come to really appreciate the simplicity of my CD player. It gets me listening to music more and farting around less.
I agree, I have several videos on streaming dacs but my preference is CD format
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Love the review. I have a ton of CDs but since I got a Bluesound vault and pulled them all onto that, plus networked to my NAD M33, I can’t imagine going back to buying CDs. I can’t tell you precisely WHY, but it seems the two viable approaches for me are network/stream and vinyl for physical media.
So glad you mentioned the CD63 this is still my CD player today, purchased in 1996 I think. I've been thinking about upgrading and I was curious to how old cd players compare to their modern day equivalent.
Keep the 63 iv tried the 6007 it's nowhere as good the old marantz cd players are better
I have a Marantz CD6006 and listened to it through analog output for some time. It had a pleasing warm sound but i felt something was missing. I was tempted to buy more a expensive Marantz CDP but they all lack CD-Text. So i hooked it up to my Musical Fidelity V90-DAC (coax). And this combination works great for me. Better separation and detail.
There are two factors merged, which should be separated. 1 CD versus stream. 2 signal processing optimized for Redbook versus bit perfect DAC. How does the Cambridge CNX with lossless streaming via Qobuz sound, compared to CD player? I guess it can compete, since the processing is good for 16/44.
What I'd like to see is an overview of universal disc spinners. I have a decent collection of both movies and music on silver discs. I currently use a single machine (Arcam FMJ) as the hub of my system, but it's up for replacement and there seems to be precious few options out there.
The Marantz Model 30n SACD network player is truly a companion player/streamer for the Model30 amp and it is superb as well as identically priced.
I've been listening to my Denon CDC-A110 for 2 months, it's the best I've ever heard. With analog outs to a Schiit Jotunheim 2 and Audeze LCD-X, it always brings tears to my eyes. Then, I stop thinking about the price, and just enjoy the music.
😂
I too have long thought that CDs sound better than streaming music until I discovered that the network switch was the cause. After replacing with a business Cisco switch and a 12 Volt low noise with EMI RFI Filter power supply, this has been completely upgraded.
What Cisco business switch has 12v power supply? How did you replace the ps?
Wow interesting. So the cause for Johns finding considering the bluesound Node's lesser quality might well be in the network...
Nope. The Node sounds the same (to me) when used with an Ethernet cable and over wifi.
I don’t want to brag but it would be interesting to see the explanation from protocol point of view. TCP is reliable and deterministic so I would be surprised to see packets lost or coming in of out of order to the Dac. I can understand more or less data available from CD depending on the quality of the drive subsystem, which influence the sound quality. But never seen valid explanation for network devices.
Unless we are taking into account analog domain and dirty stuff not filtered out. But then again - it is not a network/protocol thing.
@@Marszczak I use the Cisco SG250-08 switch with a AUDIOPHONICS LPSU25 Linear Regulated Power Supply EMI RFI Filter 12V 1.25A 25VA. This as a replacement of a Sitecom switch with a standard powersupply.
Well that was very interesting. I had the base model of the CD-63 (not the SE version you have here John) for over two decades. It's still going strong - I gave it to a friend last year. I'm hoping to give the KI Signature version a listen at some point, which was by all accounts particularly good fun. I'd rather download FLAC these days than buy a CD (for environmental and storage reasons), but occasionally I want something that's just not available to download. And then I do get it on CD.
There are as many streaming tracks that sound better than CD so it's important to compare the exact same tracks. Like comparing vinyl pressings, it all depends on who did the mastering and production and how it was converted. It is difficult to find the true information on where the original stream was derived from. So it's not simply CD sounds better than streaming as bits should be bits.
Definitely. Then in order the be compared properly they'd have to be played through the same dac as well...
Another great video, John. Here’s the question I was hoping you’d address: what sort of differences would you anticipate possibly hearing between all three of these CD players if you compared them as transports only (digital out to a common DAC)? Thanks!
At the end it should all be down to the DAC quality on the cd and the streaming players, assuming the content has the exact same information (0s and 1s).
I like this trend back to physical media. But I’m also listening to albums, not tracks or playlists - so this “back to the 80’s” approach works for me. I wonder how CD transport & external dac solutions works vs modern CD “integrated’s” like these lovely Japanese offerings?
Way back in the 90’s , the high end store I worked, developed a CD player using a high end Philips transport ( can’t remember the model # ) and we also sold Krell Digital. The Boss, Eric Hudgens, said that the player would go into such a high amount of error correction “ jitter “ that it would sound “ warmer “ to our customers . I have all of it running through my Krell system and love the music. Never had to reboot my VPI TT. Love your channel
I've recently bought a Rotel Ra1592mk2 and RCD 1572mk2. I find that using balanced XLR cables (and obviously the cd's dac) sounds a lot better than a coaxial cable and the amp's dac. Admittedly the XLR cables are a lot more expensive than the coaxial but the difference is quite pronounced.
Assuming they both use the same updated T.I. dacs, do you think balanced input/ouputs sound inherently better than using the cd player as a transport?
A good comparison to CD60 would be Denafrips Ares DAC/Audiolab 6000CDT.
Ofcourse it does Darko...doh. Streaming uses algorithmic processes to churn the music to your ears, where as CDs give you the bit for bit music as it was mastered by a studio engineer. No compression no added digital artifacts. Just plain music as intended by the artist. Buy a CD and use streaming as an audition platform before you buy... support vinyl and CD and physical media. Dont become slaves to the subscription services who want to rent out your favourite music to you...
I also agree and think CDs and certain CD players have the edge over streaming in comparable conditions. But as you pointed out in your other video, CDs still have many advantages over streaming and often vinyl (which I also love and collect). I have an old Rotel RCD-865BX that I actually found for $6 at the thrift store that has a beautiful sound, and when connected to the RME ADI-2-DAC (FS) via coaxial it also sounds wonders. Long (er) live CD! 💿
I'm totally with you, still not prepared to give up on CDs, but for convenience, my entire CD collection is ripped to Flac and stored on my home network, so I can stream locally to my Node 2. Someone is going to tell me I am missing out on some sound quality, I'm sure, but it works just fine for me. II enjoyed the little nod to Hans Beekhuyzen at the end there. Does he know you borrowed his tagline?
I made the fatal error of ripping all cds to apple mp3 (whatever the short term was) . Started to rip to flac but realised time restraints. Decided to wipe all from comp, free up space and go back to cd. Arcam cd72 and marantz cd7300 doing what they do best.
I think the issue of the clocking of the digital data stream bears more investigation. The pathway from the source (lets say Qobuz) through the internet to the home (cable modem, ethernet, wifi) to the streamer and to the dac has many handshakes along the way. In my setup, I send the digital data from my streamer to the asynchronous USB input of my dac (RME ADI-2 DAC). The RME therefore controls the clock (and has a very accurate one). My belief is that this negates many sources of jitter along the way. Playing a cd is a much more direct pathway and doesn’t suffer from as many data handshakes along the way as streaming.
Hi Harry I think John's latest podcast with Mark Jenkins on digital audio would be of great interest to you as they get pretty deep into this.
Never ditched CD's... I use all 3 modes (Stream, Vinyl and CD's) all through my Moon Neo Ace, I have no complaints on any versions, Qobuz can vary sometimes (not sure why) CD's are still the favoured mode and i've tried comparison between DACs in the Moon Ace via Coaxial, Analogue and Optical. Analogue sounds by far the most natural sound....using an Arcam UDP 411, not the very best CD, maybe a CD transport alone would sound better with the Ace DAC ? but i'm happy with what I hear...isn't that what its all about?
So what exactly is the difference between the CD60 and the CD 6007? And which of Marantz's models play SACD and DSD Cds, and perhaps even BluRay? And what is the best amp and speaker to pair this with?
to carry on looking for ‘that sound’ I played my wife a 30 second sound byte from the same song “crime of the century” by supertramp. I played the LP on a pimped up Rega p3 with a mp500 cartridge, a chrome tape recording on my naganichi c3 cassette recorder of the lossless song streamed from Apple, the same source recorded onto my B77 revox R2R, the CD, and finally streamed. I asked my wife to listen and make a rescission of best to worse (what ever that means) so did one stand out to you…..did one make you want to listen longer, enjoy it more….what were your thoughts. Apart from thinking I’m bonkers she said……‘I preferred the version played 3rd’ so my mid 70’s B77 R2R won through.
It’s strange how we all have a listening experience and although she said ‘they all sound good’ the lossless recording sounded better via a tape (albeit a good tape) being dragged over a magnetic head, through a analogue input of my amp.
In my teenage Years I got just that same vintage marantz CD Player. A cd63 se, if I recall it right. And I have to say, I agree. I tried to exchange it with newer, "more detailled, but also sterile" sounding players when Denon produced their Lineup in the 2000s, went happily back to the old marantz.
It got replaced only by its own successors, the "newer vintage" models CD17 mk2, and the CD14, which I found 3 years ago for an incredible price. Talking of a few hundreds of dollars, not thousands.
The cd14 is now happily playing in my high end chain, connected to ayon auris, kronzillas, and wilson sasha 2s... It certainly still feels like it belongs there. And it gives its competing Linn Akkurate ds3 Streamer a run for the Money... If i want the maximum of details, i choose the Linn and hi res, but if I want the sound to go really deep and touch me in a natural way, I fumble around with those not so convenient discs. Its just... hollistically, the more natural experience.
And: the cd63se... that 12 pound plastic bomber, is still in our family, playing in my fathers girlfriends house... Talking about sustainability, there you go!
As a result of this video I decided to do my first ever direct comparison between a track on a CD and the same track through Spotify (Elzabetta Brusa's Fireworks, on Naxos). The digital signal is put through the same external Rega DAC. The difference was clear, but not as large as I had expected. Streaming produced a slightly brighter and more open sound, and seemed a bit vague and splashy compared with the CD, which was more explicit and solid in delivery. But the noticeable thing was that the CD sounded rather wooden and constrained, and almost mechanical to the ear. I wonder whether streaming's softening of the sound made it seem less effortful and more fluid and free, perhaps like LPs do, when compared with the precision and objectivity of CD. Of course, on a different track there could be different results, and I suspect the sound of some Spotify files is well below what they could be. It may be worth doing a comparison of the same album on CD, LP, and streaming, to see what the differences are between the three. Thanks for the video.
Epic taste in Grace Jones Slave to the Rhythm... I played that on vinyl Saturday night. Track 2 is tasty.
I think that was Grace Jones's Compass Sessions CD in the background (if that was what the Grace Jones CD you spotted)?
I have a high-end Cambridge blue ray player, cd's sound great in it .
I also have progressive dvd player's from the 90's that I buy all the time at goodwill and flea markets, both Sony's and pioneers.
They sound just as good as the 1500.00 dollar Cambridge.
I buy them for five to twenty dollars.
Could you specify better which models are you referring? Thanks!
That's cool😊
Great information as always.
If an external DAC is used in place of the internal DAC on the Node and the same external DAC was used with the CD players would the same comparisons still hold between CDs and streaming?
Love my CDs especially classical. Listened to the blue sound thing at a dealers last week v a Marantz 6007 CD and it underwhelmed me. Nowhere near as good as my little iFi Zen DAC signature mk 2.
The winner was a Linn LP12 playing three 50 year old classical albums. Beautiful imaging and so exciting. Showing my age I guess. Shame the budget Linn cost more than my Skoda is worth……
I may dig out my 40 year old Yamaha cassette deck next…Dolby C and all that. Then I can play all the cassettes I made with my mates at Uni in the late 70s……..
Isn't it normal that the 40n is heavier as an amplifier compared to a cd player?
John I sold my mint condition CD63 Ki Signature a little while back(had it from new) and I am now suffering sellers remorse.Even tried to get it back but no luck.I really enjoy warm lush sound and the KI had that in spades.What I get from this review is that the closest sounding streamer to the 63 is your Node,which cannot be too different to my 63KI(though I have never heard the vanilla 63).Was looking at buying the Node,that way I can stream and also attach a NAD cd player I have to the Node to enjoy the warm sound of the Node's DAC.Thank you for your reviews John,really.
When done right , cd sounds fantastic 😊
You should have shown how incredibly fast the cd63 goes from insert to play! I’d be interested what you think of a cd63ki or and a modified one
I’ve just invested in a Primare DD15 to play through my RME ADI 2….. It sounds superb.
What about if you buy $150 CD playing into a $500 dac? How's that compare to $1000 CD player?
I've been a user of the Rotel CD11 Tribute for quite a few months and the dac in it sounds really really good. It is an upgrade to the Allo DACs (inside Boss2, Katana), which i think already sounds substantially better than the usually thin and harsh sounding DACs in the market.
I like both CD 💿 z and streaming. Both have their dark and bright sides.
I'm pretty sure it's not fair to say streaming is weaker sounding than CDs when using two different DACs.
A better way would be to do a level matched blind test with the two sources and one DAC. 😉
As always, thank you for the video.
I upgraded my old 1000€ setup to a Marantz 40 + Metas and just recently found my old but trusted Sony CD player broke on me due to old age. I'm not sure if I will ever replace it though. The space it takes is pretty significant and I'm living on minimalist space of less than 20sqm. In an ideal world, Spotify lossless would roll out in Germany in the next 12 months, because I don't like the fragmentation of having multiple streaming services, and many releases are just not on other platforms - so that Vinyl and Spotify could satisfy all my needs ... But that's a whole other story.
Has Spotify made yet another promise of lossless that they'll like break (again!)?
It seems few reviewers state whether the CD player/s being reviewed are compatible with playing CDR discs. I have made hundreds of bit to bit copies at normal rate recorded on blank media with my now buried JVC and Marantz recorders. It is of importance to me and maybe some others while searching for a new cd player. As always, thank you for the review.I
I bought the marantz CD 60 a month ago and was blown away by the sound quality of my CDs using that CD player. Especially, purple rain..I don't even have the remastered cd and it sounded so good, that streaming just can't compare to it.
I have a SA15 S2 CD player and I use its dac which is great with a NA 7004.Marantz is the thing for me in stéréo Hifi and They match a PM 11s1 that has a smooth tube like player but fed with very good cables and plug etc for electricity (Wibex,Oyaide ).It simply bring them to a higher level
The best way to upgrade any system regardless of cost is to smoke a joint whilst listening😊
True 😊
🤣😅
😀lol right!!!
🎉
Best change to my listening habits I ever made
When you say "the delta between" do you mean 'difference'?
I think you said it: "Price appropriate". I've seen many posts on Audiogon saying that to equal or best the sound from a good $900 CD player (or higher) you have to spend about $4000 on your streaming front end (streamer and DAC) and also have to replace your Internet router with something better as well. So, yes, streaming gives us access to thousands and thousands of albums, but for a significantly lower price point we can get equal or better sound quality by playing our own CDs.
Of course, there's nothing wrong with spending $4000 or more on your digital front end to get good results if that budget is within your means and desires.
For me, I think streaming sounds "good enough" for music discovery and general listening, but if I find something I really like, I'll buy the CD (or vinyl).
Also, note that the delta between the CD player and the streamer becomes even less if you feed the CD player into your $2000 DAC - the one you bought so your streaming sounds as good as or better than a CD.
Replace your I regret router with something better. Really ? How would that improve sound quality ?
@@ProffAndy they not only replace their Internet router with one that is "better", they add a special Ethernet switch of some kind and they buy all new linear power supplies for everything, plus a power conditioner to plug everything in, and high end Ethernet cables.
The goal is to remove as much inherent electrical noise and voltage variances from ever being an issue with getting a good data stream into their streamer and DAC.
Can they hear a difference? They say they can.
But for me, I'm happy to spend about $1000 on a streamer and $1000 on a DAC and just be happy listening to the music.
In my den on my AVR I'm using a cheap $79 WiiM Mini streamer to feed it's internal DAC via an optical cable and to me, it sounds fine, as least on that system with the Wharfedale bookshelf speakers I'm using.
In my living room I want something more price appropriate to the rest of the gear that ekes out more performance.
Is it worth it? Well maybe. This is basically a fun hobby and lets us appreciate music very well. I have friends that spend more than $1500 on lenses for their amateur photography passion, so to each their own.
I think that if the DAC sounds different, it is either the digital transport or the power supply for those chips. So feeding the DAC of the CD connected analog to the 40N with the digital signal of the Node N130 would sound better than the Heos streamed song directly going through the Marantz? If that happens they should improve that with a better edition. I have a NE8005 and an SA8005 from Marantz, and the NE sounds a bit better (timing is better), but the difference is so tiny, that there could be other side effects. It is a pity they did not have SACD transport in the new CD player like in the 30N, but that is a bit higher in price. The only comparable to the Marantz CD 60 is the new Denon DCD-900NE CD. It would be interesting to compare. Marantz has higher numbers for lower classes now, so if they do not name it CD40 but CD60 it seems to be matching a lower class in power supply and housing materials.
CD images - oh yeah, that Grace Jones two-disc collection of her Island Records recordings is wonderful.
The 'Hot-blooded' Slave To The Rhythm is just 🔥
I still use a NAD cd player and hooked it up with audioquest cinnamon toslink to my Metrum Acoustic dac… wow just wow!! Better the rca to the amplifier… CD sounds amazing!! And it always works!
You discussed considerations as a factor, but I didn't hear you mention the prohibited price of $1000. Most people would consider that too high of a price. There must be decent cd players in the $300 to $500?
I use my 4k Sony player connected to a onyko receiver and cd playback sounds pretty good. I'm aware that it is nothing like the Marantz cd player but again there must be a cd player that will give you a decent playback?
I use Sony Blu Ray players for CD playback in three of my systems and they sound great.
Hi John. I have done countless demos of CD vs Streaming and CD always wins. It has a 3d sound field that streaming just does not seem to muster. I have heard streamers up to around £10k and a £5k CD player will walk all over it. This included hi-res streams vs CD too.
Something is lost with streaming. I hope we do not end up taking a sonic step back, all in the name of convenience.
If your streamer can’t produce a “3d sound field “ , there’s something wrong with other parts of your system or the streamer . Streamers typically don’t suffer from imaging issues in my experience when used with a good DAC .
Awesome comparison, cheers! You've said in the past that the DAC and transport help each other out - is that the reason why the players beat the streamer? If so, does it make sense to buy a transport and DAC separately?
What are those short “ad breaks” in your videos ? There is no actual ad, just some frames from the video with “ad break” written on them and a sound of electric zapping.
I stream, but if I really want to sit and listen, I still enjoy putting a disc on. Funny enough, I use a Marantz CD67 mkII, which I prefer the sound to than many new CD players.
Hi John, Dutch hifi reviewers commented that the DAC inside the 40N is not the best, in terms of sound quality. Neither is the HEOS streamer in terms of functionality. I would prefer to go for separates: Music Fidelity M2Si, SMSL D300 and Argon Audio Solo (or Node) and save some money. Or go for the Rega Elicit MkV with integrated DAC and separate streamer and spend a bit more but have amplification at a totally different level. In the streaming vs CD sound quality discussion the DAC plays a crucial role and that is were the Marantz 40N is a bit of disappointment, especially because Denon (A110) and Marantz (30 CD) know how to implement DACs.
What's the take away from this? Any clue of an explanation? CD are still digital audio after all so we can wonder if it's about the dac, or is it really related to the "streaming part"?
Is there still the same liveliness when listening from the USB flash drive?
You are 100% right. I've passed the last month lisening to a bunch of different setup, including high resolution from Tidal hifi plus. Started with wiim, then bluesound node, using a DX3 pro+ dac to realise that my roku 4k stick sounds better then both streamer. And then i tried a cd from a blueray, going HDMI in to my tv, then optical to the dx3 and it sounds even better then from Tidal. And i even compared with full mqa songs from the bluesound node to a topping E50 wich Fully unfold mqa and it didn't sound better then cd from my blueray. And it had to be master quality songs cause if it was CD quality it sounded worst then from my roku. So now, i'm wondering if a cd player like the rotel Will sound better then my blueray cause the dx3 is a really good sounding dac for me cause i like clean sound.
Absolutely right, CDs are a real bargain right now as well, pick them up for 50p in charity shops. There's a lot of junk, but good recordings are there, Naxos, Deutche Gramaphon, EMI etc can all be found easily.
Very nice video for the people that are seeking for a CD player. In that way, have you tested the Marantz CD6007?