On a consistency basis, and on the basis of their rugby culture, they absolutely do. But for those individuals with a sky-high ceiling, I'd argue other countries do that better
@@MrBlack_rugby As per my reply to this - you cannot say one nation has x and the other has y in terms of skills. You typically have to look at individuals and compare them.
I am a bok and can't answer this,both countries produce the best rugby players. The all blacks have produced incredible players as have the boks. If we look currently SA has the edge but if we look previously the ABs had the edge. Both produce incredible players.
We don’t produce better players. We’ve got the best top players right now but overall? NZ 20s, 18s, Schools are all either the best or right up there at every level. However we do produce an extraordinary amount of class forwards at the moment our 2-3 forwards still better then most nations
@@alexorjerry They can have their say at any WC semi-final or URC final. The hosts have agreed to give them all the time they need before that games...........If they make it - Brian O discord.
@@eoinh3816Football is by far the most popular sport in South Africa, you obviously aren’t South African. And 65 mil, with half of them who don’t know when they’re going to get their next meal is not the same thing as being a first world country with that population. The fact that South Africa are a third world country makes it way more impressive as well.
@@beazjohnson9865 you've probably never player rugby so you probably don't understand that things like line speed, discipline, executing game plans are all skills. Im guessing NZ has a similar view to you regarding skills, where has it gotten you recently considering NZ are more skilled 🤣
As a Saffa and 1000% Bok supporter, Aaron Smith has been the best 9 in the world for over 10 years. Even though he has retired from international rugby, he is still the best 9 in the world.
@@jaycordner3890I would pick Faf over both, without even a second thought. There is no such thing as "the best". Instead, there is what fits you and your playing style. While Faf can play the exiting style and give the ball some air, he is an absolute maestro when it comes to managing a gritty and close game. And then there is composure. Picture this: World Cup semi-final. You are either trailing by a point, or leading by a point. It's rainy conditions and you've got a slippery ball. The players are tired and sore after an intensely physical encounter. You either need to win a penalty, or defend for your life. The question isn't which one of the three (Faf, Smith or Dupont) has the most talent; the question is which one of the three has the grit to see the game through?
In his prime George Gregan was great but I like a scrummie to have the build of a flanker- Fourie du Preez or Joost. Faf is my man, although he was a bit average this year, ❤ Faf but Aaron is a bit better.
Springbok 2nd XV vs 1st XV in brackets, you may switch a few around but theyre similar quality. But this team absolutely could beat the ABs 1st XV 1. Kitshoff (Ox) 2. Marx (Mbonambi) 3. Koch (Malherbe) 4. Nortje (Eben) 5. Snyman (Mostert) 6. Kwagga (Siya) 7. Dixon (PSDT) 8. Louw (Wiese) 9. Williams (Reinach) 10. SFM (Pollard) 11. Mapimpi (Kolbe) 12. Esterhuizen (De Allende) 13. Am (Kriel) 14. Moodie (Arendse) 15. Fassi (Willie / Willemse)
100% Credit to Rassie, but our 1st and second team is virtually the same strength. Nortje, Dixon, Louw is about the only players that is a level below. All the other ones have been at one stage equal to the number 1 in their position. (Faf is not even in your team and you have 3 fullbacks...What about Lood De Jager)
@@edrianluyt8735 I was including faf and de jager as they are long term injuries. I did however include those who were injured during this season. and im not sure the rankings at 15 so i had 3
The boks won and congrats to them but they were very close games IN SOUTH AFRICA. I doubt a second 15 team could beat the all blacks at Eden park, the first string boks team would struggle to beat the ABs at Eden park.
@@rugbyguy1rugby407 I think you might be missing the point. It's not that South Africa is so much better then NZ. We may easily lose to them playing our best team. It's that our top 30 players atm. Are about the same quality. You could swap out just about any player (or any combination of players) without the quality of the team dropping. The case are made that the second 15 are pretty much as good as the first 15. A majority of the second team, was at some stage the starting player in that position. Kitshof, Mapimpi, Am, Marx etc.
@@edrianluyt8735 my point is still valid to the OP’s opinion that the boks second team could beat the AB’s first 15. I simply stated that I doubt the boks 2nd string team would beat the ABs first team at Eden park when their 2 games in South Africa against both teams first string teams was so close.
They hamstring themselves by that ridiculous policy, who are they trying to please? Same thing with Australia, they got serious sponsorship money, and pissed it down the drain instead of strengthening the structures and signing players to proper cntracts, it's mad. The 2 countries' rugby heads should be arrested and charged for weakening SH rugby.
@@Ravens1300 No one would stay in NZ, it would be sad. I think the ABs need 5 marquee players that can be picked from overseas after being an AB. That would solve it.
Here is something to consider. So for the first ninety years of the Springboks, rugby was a "white" sport due Apartheid. People of colour could play it, but funding, coaching and facilities was a giant obstacle. With ±10% of our population playing, we set up an incredible rugby system that fed the most dominant team throughout the entire amateur era. No team, not even the All Blacks, was as dominant for as long as the Springboks were. The players we produced even then are S-tier; guys like Danie Gerber, Mannetjies Roux, Frik Du Preez, Naas Botha, Jan Ellis, Gerald Bosch etc. Then came the end of Apartheid and we had to make shift - black representation was mandated and therefore initiatives were started to make the sport more accessible. This unfortunately went hand in hand with some political meddling, stern quota requirements and whatnot...but by hook or by crook, we got systems in place in order to development black talent and push them towards the formidable system we've built. Players of colour in especially the Cape provinces and the Xhosa people have taken to rugby. So basically, take the 10% of the population that produced Danie Gerber and Naas Botha and then add another 20% of the population that produced the likes of Kolisi, Nche, Am, Paulse, Kolbe and Habana. Zulu, Tswana, Sotho etc are less developed in their rugby cycle, but they'll get there. If we could dominate the way we did with only 10% of our population... Engaging the other 90 to feed into our rugby conveyor is a rather frightening prospect.
The saddest thing about the political meddling is that it actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise. I remember the post 1995 teams that the Springboks fielded, from the lily white team that lost to the BI Lions in 1997 under Markgraaff to the sheer tokenism of later teams where the bare minimum of non-white players were included, mostly on the wing "where they could do the least damage". The forced inclusion made us look at the 'other 90%' and we have reaped some fantastic rewards as a result, but I strongly believe that if it wasn't for the quota system, we never would have heard of Bryan Habana, Kurt Lee Arendse, Lukhanyo Am, Siya Kolisi, to name a few, because there would be no reason to include them in the first place. With our attitude of resisting black inclusion in the first place, and by that I mean systems and coaching, we lost out on some great players who could potentially have played a lot more than they ever did; Kennedy Tsimba, Kaya Malotana, Gobani Bobo, Solly Tyibilika.. all ended up on the fringes but we had the attitude of preferring the bigger Afrikaans boys, especially those from historic rugby schools.
I was talking to an English bloke on Facebook a few days ago, and this was basically the same position I held, we are going to do some magnificent things in Rugby when the ground structures are accessible to most of our population, currently it's still not easy to even play barefoot rugga for a significant chuck of our populace, the moment we get that and the culture and traditions established, Rugby might end up being as big, if not bigger than footy in our country. The governance of our rugby is certainly more proffessional than those clowns at SAFA.
@randomlyfactual1943 are you drunk? In what universe were the South Africans more dominant than the AB's for more than a few brief periods??? Just look at your overall records against the top tier teams vs NZ. It's not even a close comparison! 🤣 I know you saffa fans can be delusional at times but mate, you need to go see a doctor or something because you have lost it! 😳
I agree mostly with what you are saying but also have to disagree in some cases. Guys like Bryan Habana (KES), Ngobane Bobo (Rondebosch) and Kagiso Rabada in cricket (St Stithians College) went to the schools they did by virtue of their parents and not by scholarships and were exceptional schoolboy sportsmen and made it all the way on skill and reputation alone. Bryan Habana was not given a special path where he ended up scoring the most tries for a Bok at 67 so in some cases the quota system played little to no role. But what you are saying overall is pretty accurate but without the quota system it would have happened too - it just would have taken longer. I say it worked out fantastically well even though at times the quotas had worked against SA results while were were all learning how to get it right.
The only team nz was the first team to won back to back wc are u stupid or just playing dumb the bokke can never won the abs zero score event now while they building up a new team u must go and asked ur Jesus for help to think 😡
Bok supporter here. I don’t agree with Danny that the Boks 2nds would definitely beat the ABs, but the fact that it’s a debate actually answers the original question. Here’s how to settle it: Who thinks the ABs 2nd team will beat the Boks? No debate there, which again, answers the question.
The ABs overseas based players who are no longer eligible could probably give the Boks a run for there money. We are not desperate enough yet to pick overseas based players as the Boks have done so maybe the ABs have more depth than the Boks.
Here is the difference - the coaches! Remember Rassmus has been in there since 2017 and has established HIS systems and look at the results! Meanwhile we have a new coach and coaching staff and our game is NOT right - why????? Because NZ rugby is deluded with this idea about running playing entertaining rugby - it does not win world cups!!!!! THe reason why the Boks are succeeding is because of their systems implemented by a great coach - that is why and what is the difference!
@@geotruthnz7013 Maybe. Out of interest can you name the overseas based team you would select to beat the Boks. That would make a pretty good debate...
That question about whether a second and third XV could beat most teams is a really good question. You wouldnt have an Eben, PSDT ot Kolbe but the quality of the players in many positions are pretty damn good for at least a second XV and quite a few for a third XV. Wings you have Mapimpi, Moodie, Edwill vd Merwe. Scrumhalves you have Williams, Reinach, Hendrikse. Centres you have Am, Esterhuizen. Flyhalves you have 2 of Libbok, Pollard, Feinberg-mgomezulu. Full Back you have 2 of Fassi, Willemse, Le Roux. We know the boks have at least 2 full packs without including players like Roos, Ben Jason Dixon, Ruan Nortje, Elrigh Louw. Considering all of that plus some URC players like Hanekom it does seem quite likely
The SA first 15 only just beat a very average NZ team in 2 home games. The second 15 would still be good, but it's absolutely crazy to say they would beat even the current ABs.
@@lunny2230 the wins were bigger than almost every game for the last 5 or 6 years. The question isn't only about the All Blacks though. It's about "most teams".
@mallencolly you been drinking a bit tonight mate? 6 point and 4 point wins? 🤷 Hardly a demolision job was it??? And the question raised in the video was about the All Blacks.
@@lunny2230 most of the games over the last 5 or 6 years have been 1 or 2 points. A few have had more than that but not that many. That's just facts Nobody said anything about a demolition job. If you read the first sentence of my comment you'll see I specifically said "most teams" I'm happy to discuss this but if you're going to argue it would probably better if you argued against what I've said not whatever you have imagined. It just works better that way. Also, you may want to have a look at those team sheets if you think either of those teams was a first XV. Like no Etzebeth in one for a start 🤣
@mallencolly results for last 5 years (since 2019) Draw NZ by 10 NZ by 2 SA by 2 SA by 16 NZ by12 NZ by 15 SA by 28 SA by 1 (WC) Please do point out how that list equates to "most of the games have been by 1-2 points". Seems like statistics, and facts aren't your strongest subjects mate. 🤷🤔 Also the video is about SA vs NZ. It's only you who made up the "most teams" part. 🤷
More class from another Ruggas Player. Well spoken Danny Care on the A Smith topic. While i agree, A smith was a better player, i am not sure we would see him taking on a question like DC did. Kudos to you. From another irritating WC X4 Saffa :)
The development of rugby amongst the black communities in our country has been a major contribution to our rugby and has given us the edge over the All Blacks. We are now in a privileged position to develop players from a much wider network and the future of rugby in our country looks great.
NZ produce better rugby players than any other country in the world. SA might have more rugby players playing internationally around the globe, but pure talent and better players, NZ produce more. The past 10 test matches between the two country’s is a clear example of that fact. We won’t go into the past 30yrs, because that would be embarrassing for SA. But, in saying all that, to me, SA is the number 1 team in the world (don’t care what rankings say) and the two best players in the world are PSDT and Coby.
Couldn't resist posting the Boks' second team / third team 1. Steenekamp/ Kitshoff 2. Marx / Grobbelaar 3. Koch / Louw. 4. Kleyn / Moerat 5. RG / De Jager 6. Van Staden / Smith 7. Louw / BJD 8. Hanekom / Roos 9. Williams / Hendrikse 10. Pollard / Libbok 11. Mapimpi / vd Merwe 12. Esterhuizen / Am 13. Am / Moodie 14. Moodie / Van der Merwe 15. Fassie / Le Roux
Bok fan. I think SA and NZ are very equal these days, much more so than the past which was one sided. Also I don't believe England under deliver. Last 4 World Cups finals they've played 3...England also been top 2-3 in six nations. I do believe English media are the teams own worst enemy. They might not have won anything but they've been up there consistently. In reality, the are playing France and Ireland best ever and Scotland as well.
Solid starters on the Boks are Ox, Eben, PSDT, Kolisi, DeAllende & Cheslin are the solid starters. The other 9 can be switched and changed depending on what the mission is. 49 different players in the rugby championship shows how deep our squad can be.
@@Edgycoo Such a dumb argument, every team got a chance to have two home games against one of the other teams. New Zealand got to play both games against Argentina at home, why didn't they win both games? Argentina play Australia twice at home, why didn't they win both games?
@@adrianpheiffer9960 argentina are lower ranked than they should be. But the top two seeds shouldnt see one get two home games thats ridiculous. Like to see how two games at eden park would go.
Ardent Springbok fan for 7o years.Yes we have real depth now.What however astounds me is that we only have one reliable place kicker in Pollard.I am perplexed ‘cause there are brilliant kicking coaches around who are not utilised.
@@mattf1998 you have to go back 7 years to find some 'evidence' to disprove the statement? Not trying to poke the bear here mate, but have you seen what has happened in competition between the two since then?
South Africa used 36 (something along those lines) of players for the TRC. They used 42+ if you extend for the June test. Just the TRC team (players who actually played), gets you 3 teams. Surely we are not even questioning the strength of the 3rd team's forward pack. Trevor N, Thomas Du Toit, can't even make the 3rd team. Hooker would be a genuine 3rd team player (the weakest link) - probably Grobbelaar or Venter. Locks would be Jean Klein, Moorat, or Nortje. World class. Etzebeth, Mostert, De Jager, Snyman are in the first 2 teams. And the loosies would be Marco van staaden, Elrich Louw or Evan Roos and Cameroon Hannekom. That pack is ridiculous, with one lossie and the hooker being the weakest position. Backline would be ridiculous - we have 5 world class half-backs (Faf, Reinach, Hendrikse, Williams and Morne) at the moment, Libbok would be 10, Moodie at centre, Fassie at 15, Van der merwe on one wing, and the other prob Grant Williams (plenty half backs to spare), and the final centre could be Hartzenburg, David Kriel. In summary, Hooker, one loosie and one centre would be the weakest positions (and only weak because the later 2 haven't any international experience) - for a 3rd team that is an impressive line-up.
We've always developed good rugby players in the past. Especially through our school and varsity systems. But since Dr Johan Erasmus took charge, We've turned great players into superstars. That is the advantage of excellent leadership. #forever green&gold. Go bokke 🇿🇦
I read recently that the fastest dying sports in NZ and Aus is rugby union. I can’t believe this. Is this true? That’s not good for both those countries, and equally not good for world rugby. As for SA, the supply of talent that’s been opened up in the rural areas is phenomenal. The beast is finally being unleashed. The future for SA rugby looks strong.
Good concept to apply to Rugby! A little shilling for the Bok fans thrown in. Got to admire it. The more complimentary you can be to Bok fans the quicker you'll grow.
One thing to consider to is all the Springboks are born and bred in South Africa. The All Blacks have always dabbled in the other Pacific Island nations. Further, the depth argument at this point clearly in favour of South Africa.
South Africa have tradtionally used Zimbabwean players. Plus think of all the top players New Zeland produces for other nations. Bundi Aki, James Low,Gibson Parl, Antonio, Meafou.
@@BertFlashman There have been like 5 foreign born Springboks in the last 35 years. And 1 in last 15. That’s nothing compared to the All Blacks. To say they’ve traditionally always used Zimbabweans is an outrageous exaggeration. And the Springboks have also had a lot of great exports to other countries. Look at Scotland right now. England, France and Ireland have all had their share as well. Your points are moot.
I think NZ gets a lot of immigration from Samoa, Tonga and the like where rugby is very popular. I believe there are more NZ born players in the Samoan and Tongan teams at the World Cup. SA tends to get immigrants from countries where football (soccer) is most popular to play.
Boks pull the Irish pants down, in both the world cups and head to head between the 2 teams🇿🇦🙂. Irish rugby are in the Boks shadow and always have been 👌🏻🙂
If the current All Blacks played last year, they would have essentially been considered a second team and yet they held up pretty well against the Boks in the TRC.
If NZ super rugby teams could play more competitive opposition they would be back to their own high standards and you would not have this discussion. Meanwhile SA who have 10 times more players got the luxury to take part in two quality competitions at the same time. Thats winning the lottery. And winning comes more regularly now that they don't have to play Nz teams anymore.
Rassie himself doesn't pick the best players, he chooses the RIGHT players. He likes mongrel dogs, not flash. He wants guys that will stay in the fight even when the cause is lost.
Loved this lads… In the past 8years or so SA have been on the up, I think SA leaving the SR. Lead to the drop in form of NZL and Aus. . . They need replenish and rebuilding, as for producing quality players or athletes. I’d argue and say that the reason we see 7/3 or 8/2 split it’s because most current SA players are quite versatile! Danny raised a valid point about Andre . . . Lastly England have not been a consistent outfit, especially with the quality they’ve had over the years.
South Africa were the worst performing teams in Super Rugby so I don't buy in to that. The ABs are coming back, NZ just had a tough few years with lockdowns etc and we are now ready to roll again.
@@geotruthnz7013 there’s no denying that the AB’s will bounce back again. The standard of rugby has dropped in the SR Pacific, look at Aussies for instance…
@@GT-fmf6170 The Aussie teams aren't as bad as what people think. They are playing against historically the best franchises in the world who the South African teams struggled against as well only winning super titles 3 times, Aussies won 4 titles. People love to bag others comps to make themselves feel better which is not needed.
@@geotruthnz7013 what have Aussie achieved in the past 8 years? Let’s play the ball here mate , The AB’s have dominated world rugby for a minute or two. I am not delusional when I say we’re in our golden era, and we have quality in depth ! In closing NZL will always be our greatest rival, one day we’ll have a pint and talk more about rugby 👊🏿🍻
@@GT-fmf6170 Ozzy have a reasonable amount of average players who are alright at club level but they haven't yet stepped up on the International stage. The OZ franchises also get some kiwis to play which helps with the teams quality. This whole chat is in response to your club comp dig though and not internationals. But long live the Springboks, at least International Rugby is more interesting again.
It is very close but at the moment I think SA is ahead and if SA will have a second team who can consistantly play together then I agree that they might beat the All Blacks. I won't say will coz anything can happen on the day and that would be ignorant but a team with the likes of Libbok, Cameron etc is crazy to think of.
Yeah let's just forget how you take the cream of the pacific islands or the fact that 80% of South Africans are not interested in rugby ( but boy is that changing) and play football.
The real problem this year for the AB's has been 10 and 9. Now they have Roigard back and hopefully next year Mounga they will be a completely different beast with those two players. Mounga is clearly the best 10 in the world and Roigard will take that mantle off Dupont in the coming years.
Currently, Springboks easily. 2nd team for sure would be fairer competition for the All Blacks but this does not take away from the quality the All Blacks produce. Hulle weet nie wat ons weet nie
That first argument broke the second he said "to play their brand" because how many South Africans are playing across the rugby WORLD, his argument has no foothold because an argument can be made that the Boks are the most versatile side currently. It's been a minute since the world was excited about a NZ player 🤷
SA pool their players from citizens. Apart from this, SA could have very bad, but give Rassie the accolade. I know everyone will go at me for that, but Rassie build the person!
As a Springbok Supporter - I say we heading into the direction where our 2nd team could possibly beat NZ 1st, in 2 years mayeb but not now. (We just beat them at home)
@@rileyfreeman9726honestly I swear bok fans were born yesterday 😂, they got memory loss of when we used to smoke them 57-0, 57-14, we are no where near as trash as they used to be 😅
South Africa without first choice 15 in no one is injured: 1. Kitshoff 2. Mbonambi 3. Koch 4. Snyman 5. Mostert 6. Kwagga 7. Louw 8. Roos 9. Williams 10. Libbok 11. Mapimpi 12. Esterhuizen 13. Am 14. Moodie 15. Fassi, Willie, SFM
The all blacks particularly since 87 have set the benchmark in the evolution of Rugby. Today The Speed, skills and Style of Rugby perpetuated by NZ transformed the game away from South African Style of Play at that time focused on huge men up front to pound you into the dirt which allowed the fleet footed backs to spring into action.This type of game bought much success for the Boks.However the ABs went the otherway ,Set phase play the platform was transitioned to multi phase attack particularly in open or broken play which speed up the game to NZs benefit and SAs decline.The mighty Boks whom i say play the toughest Rugby discovered "Tough ain't Enough"As a player,coach and Managerial person almost 50 years of Linement up my nose this is what I have learnt and observed.South Africa has gone back to its strengths and style of play .Rassie has done nothing more than return to what works,The bomb squad proved my point ,Top heavy forwards will always grind skilled players into the dirt 5 yards out 9 out of 10.
It's an easy debate. If.you picked a 23 out of SA and NZ right now youd have 15 Boks and 8 Kiwis. SA still getting a few players back from injury and a few new stars coming into the mix.
So is NZ wait until you see how good a player Roigard becomes. He will rival if not be better than Dupont and score way way more tries than him. Southafrica are weak at halfback and 10 if NZ get Mounga back next year.
SA were lucky to beat NZ in the last 3 tests they have played. Boks have a great team at the moment. Similarly the All Blacks had a great team between 2011 and 2017.SA second xv would lose.
The 2nd v 1st XV , the only position where there might be a short coming for SA is replacing PSTD 2nd XV that will make it a 1 point game vs AB's 1st XV Kitshof , Marx , Trevor , Snyman,Klein , Smith , Dixon , /Louw , Williams ,Mngomozulu , Mapimpi , Esterhuizen , Am , E vd Merwe , Le Roux Considering a First XV Ox , Bongi ,Malherbe , Etzebeth , Nortje , Kolisi, Du Toit , Wiese , Reinach, Arendse,Pollard, De Allende, Kriel, Kolbe , Fassi Which 1 of those 2 teams won't beat NZ ? Then there has to be mentioned players left out Steenkamp , Mostert ,De Klerk , Libbok , Moody , D Williams , Wilco Louw , Hanekom , Hendrikse Brothers, Van Staden
@@croissants1280 yeah but only won 10 out of the last 29 games against the springboks. How many world cups do they have? Zero Ireland is not as good as they think. Go win a world cup then you can talk boy.
@@lht1523 I disagree. It's not that our strongest team is invincible. We could lose against any team in the top 10. But, our top 30 player are pretty much the same quality. You could make up a team of any of our top 30 players and the quality of the team would roughly be the same. You could chose the weakest 15 and the strongest 15 from the top 30 and it would be a toss up on who would win if they played against each other. This is credit to Rassie for building squad depth like we have never seen in SA history. I think part of it his bomb squad system that the subs basically play half the game. No other SA coach have done that. Subs in the past, was generally seen as a way to experiment or bleed new talent, so they were not on par with the first 15.
@@edrianluyt8735 I hear you. And I agree that you guys have incredible depth. Kudos not only to Rassie but the whole coaching staff and system they are amazing. But the last 2 games showed that the All Blacks can handle whatever 15 SA chooses to field. It is the reserves that close out the game. In a imaginary scenario where there is only 15 men (which is the original point), the All Blacks beat them. That is my opinion
The last question is and has always been flawed. Simply because, the more players a country's camp has to select from, the harder it is to select from it, therefore, that's one reason for underachieving, it's as simple as that. It's not an excuse, it's a fact haha. This is what narrow minded people don't realise.
No debate South Africa produces better players. Furthermore look at the rotation of players currently being implemented by Rassie. 49 players used in the rugby championship. We don’t import any players from ”the islands” Our school boy rugby is off charts - just ask Tim from Eggchasers. The bok factory is in full flow and we are only destined to produce more and more talent. Where arguably rugby as a sport is dying in other countries, in SA rugby is growing. Boks for the next decade at least will be very difficult to beat
Since South Africa ditched Apartheid, and introduced coloured and black players, and really embracing them, they have become an unbeatable force. All those imported Afrikaans players are amazing 😆 🤣 😂
The core of the springboks players that won the last world cup is the same core that lost to NZ just 6 months prior to the world cup They just bought into Rasies vision of what they could become Both NZ and SA have outstanding talent on an individual base but if the coaching staff can't translate a vision to a on field performance that is all they will amount to brilliant athletes
South Africa in South Africa at the peak of their powers just beat the All Blacks by 4pts & 6pts respectively hardly thrashings, and in the 4pt win they were awarded a try that was a CLEAR KNOCK ON. You would’ve thought they won both games by 30 🥴🥴🥴 by the way I’m not arguing that the Boks aren’t better right now (they are look at the trophy cabinet) but 2nd team beating the All Blacks best team? Nah not having it. Would loved to have seen the Boks play in NZ this yr cos I don’t think they win. They barely won in their own backyard.
@@cfbythebeach the best ever Boks team won by 1 point against probably NZ's worst ever team, with 14 players on the field! Then followed it up at home with 2 very unconvincing wins. Your team is better at the moment, but the level of delusional arrogance from fans like you is genuinely hillarious! 🤣
The springboks at the moment I think are the best team of all time and would beat any all black team in history. The all blacks have dominated the sport since time immemorial but the current bok outfit keeps getting better and better. I could definitely see the springbok second team beating the all blacks first 15, they've always had the best defence and if they pair that with an ever more threatening attack, they will be a dominant force.
WOW! That's a statement. Might be a great debate between our esteemed guests. They're definitely dominant at the moment. Hard to measure all of the facets objectively, but it's not to be laughed at for sure. Thanks, Team DC
@ Rassie gets a lot of credit but you can already see the huge difference Tony Brown has made to the springboks proclivity to run from their own 22, dedicate less men to the ruck and use quick ball etc.
@@Travis-mj1iq TB is world-class as an attack coach. Imagine how that guy is developing and what he's going to be like for ABs any other team in the future...mind-blowing. And...it's great rugby too, brave, confident...love it!
Mmmh, im South African. Ive got massive respect for the kiwis. I think its a bit disrespectful to New Zealand. Our second team migjt get close. But i dont believe we are that much better. I think honestly of we had more money, its possible. We definitely have more players and the talent to do it. If we had the funds to help the players.
I think 1st, 2nd and 3rd team would get close. It talks to the depth and consistency of the squad. Whilst we do have a pecking order of 1 through to 3, I think they are pretty close. A 3rd team only starts looking light in 1 or 2 positions (Hooker and Centre). That is unbelievable!!
@@DoNotCareAboutYourOpinions 60million still have trouble beating a country that has 5. and can only win by apoint against 14 kiwis yah ur so much depth comments are screaming insecurity is looking more like ego babbling
@@kurtfrancis6638 truth is ur mid field is taking acting lessons from football basically diving facefirst into collisons to win by goal kicks and staying down dead till tmo gets involved not honourable
South Africa produce better rugby players than New Zealand...STRONGLY AGREE or STRONGLY DISAGREE...comment please!
Agree.
disagree
On a consistency basis, and on the basis of their rugby culture, they absolutely do.
But for those individuals with a sky-high ceiling, I'd argue other countries do that better
Strongly agree craven week conveyor belt is frightening
Agree, because the structures are set up by SARU to develop aspirate rugby talent from school level....job creation 🏆🏆🏆🏆
SA used 49 different players in the rugby championship, not to mention the ones that couldn't be used due to injury. That's insane
Not quite - they used 49 (or thereabouts) for the TRC + June tests. They only used 36'ish in the TRC.
We produce better forwards
but athletes? I love the Springboks but New Zealand produce some wild athletes
@@MrBlack_rugby As per my reply to this - you cannot say one nation has x and the other has y in terms of skills. You typically have to look at individuals and compare them.
I am a bok and can't answer this,both countries produce the best rugby players. The all blacks have produced incredible players as have the boks. If we look currently SA has the edge but if we look previously the ABs had the edge. Both produce incredible players.
We don’t produce better players.
We’ve got the best top players right now but overall?
NZ 20s, 18s, Schools are all either the best or right up there at every level.
However we do produce an extraordinary amount of class forwards at the moment our 2-3 forwards still better then most nations
Springboks is producing better players than All Blacks
Leinster academy would like a word
@@alexorjerry They can have their say at any WC semi-final or URC final. The hosts have agreed to give them all the time they need before that games...........If they make it - Brian O discord.
Our under 20s, 18s, don’t do as well as NZ.
We don’t produce better rugby players.
but we produce more physical, huge forwards that’s for sure
When they finally win something come back to us@@alexorjerry
your SA team is great but only 1 point better vs NZ's worst era in 23.
South Africa doesn’t have to import their players 😅.
This reason wins hahaha
Congratulations. A population of 65 million, rugby the most popular sport by a mile along with cricket.
@@eoinh3816Football is by far the most popular sport in South Africa, you obviously aren’t South African. And 65 mil, with half of them who don’t know when they’re going to get their next meal is not the same thing as being a first world country with that population. The fact that South Africa are a third world country makes it way more impressive as well.
@@jameswyatt4443 So how are you so god awful at football then? Your probably the worst team on the continent of Africa
Football is u tart@@eoinh3816
I would agree. South Africa are a better team but New Zealand have better skilled individuals.
Agreed💯
You are looking at skilled in a very 1 dimensional way 😊 an incorrect way
@@pauljansen6650 Truth hurts
@@beazjohnson9865 you've probably never player rugby so you probably don't understand that things like line speed, discipline, executing game plans are all skills.
Im guessing NZ has a similar view to you regarding skills, where has it gotten you recently considering NZ are more skilled 🤣
@@pauljansen6650 What on earth are you on about sunshine. Maybe look up the difference between team and individual skills before commenting.
As a Saffa and 1000% Bok supporter, Aaron Smith has been the best 9 in the world for over 10 years. Even though he has retired from international rugby, he is still the best 9 in the world.
As A Saffa i agree right up to the last bit. DU PONT is the best srum half in the world
@@jaycordner3890I would pick Faf over both, without even a second thought.
There is no such thing as "the best". Instead, there is what fits you and your playing style. While Faf can play the exiting style and give the ball some air, he is an absolute maestro when it comes to managing a gritty and close game.
And then there is composure. Picture this: World Cup semi-final. You are either trailing by a point, or leading by a point. It's rainy conditions and you've got a slippery ball. The players are tired and sore after an intensely physical encounter. You either need to win a penalty, or defend for your life. The question isn't which one of the three (Faf, Smith or Dupont) has the most talent; the question is which one of the three has the grit to see the game through?
In his prime George Gregan was great but I like a scrummie to have the build of a flanker- Fourie du Preez or Joost. Faf is my man, although he was a bit average this year, ❤ Faf but Aaron is a bit better.
@@randomlyfactual1943 Only a Saffa would pick Faf over Smith and Dupont.
@@rockkid8306 Probably because we know that the matches aren't played on paper.
It is true. Esterhuizen is now officially third pick. Lukhanyo Am is coming off the bench replacing De Allende in these last few games.
Springbok 2nd XV vs 1st XV in brackets, you may switch a few around but theyre similar quality. But this team absolutely could beat the ABs 1st XV
1. Kitshoff (Ox)
2. Marx (Mbonambi)
3. Koch (Malherbe)
4. Nortje (Eben)
5. Snyman (Mostert)
6. Kwagga (Siya)
7. Dixon (PSDT)
8. Louw (Wiese)
9. Williams (Reinach)
10. SFM (Pollard)
11. Mapimpi (Kolbe)
12. Esterhuizen (De Allende)
13. Am (Kriel)
14. Moodie (Arendse)
15. Fassi (Willie / Willemse)
100% Credit to Rassie, but our 1st and second team is virtually the same strength. Nortje, Dixon, Louw is about the only players that is a level below. All the other ones have been at one stage equal to the number 1 in their position. (Faf is not even in your team and you have 3 fullbacks...What about Lood De Jager)
@@edrianluyt8735 I was including faf and de jager as they are long term injuries. I did however include those who were injured during this season. and im not sure the rankings at 15 so i had 3
The boks won and congrats to them but they were very close games IN SOUTH AFRICA. I doubt a second 15 team could beat the all blacks at Eden park, the first string boks team would struggle to beat the ABs at Eden park.
@@rugbyguy1rugby407 I think you might be missing the point. It's not that South Africa is so much better then NZ. We may easily lose to them playing our best team. It's that our top 30 players atm. Are about the same quality. You could swap out just about any player (or any combination of players) without the quality of the team dropping.
The case are made that the second 15 are pretty much as good as the first 15. A majority of the second team, was at some stage the starting player in that position. Kitshof, Mapimpi, Am, Marx etc.
@@edrianluyt8735 my point is still valid to the OP’s opinion that the boks second team could beat the AB’s first 15. I simply stated that I doubt the boks 2nd string team would beat the ABs first team at Eden park when their 2 games in South Africa against both teams first string teams was so close.
NZ should start to pick their foreign based playes. Game changer. The first thing Rassie got right.
They hamstring themselves by that ridiculous policy, who are they trying to please?
Same thing with Australia, they got serious sponsorship money, and pissed it down the drain instead of strengthening the structures and signing players to proper cntracts, it's mad.
The 2 countries' rugby heads should be arrested and charged for weakening SH rugby.
@@Ravens1300 Exactly.
@@Ravens1300 No one would stay in NZ, it would be sad. I think the ABs need 5 marquee players that can be picked from overseas after being an AB. That would solve it.
SA 2nd team- Marx, Koch, RG Snyman, Elrigh Louw, K Smith, K Reinach, Pollard, A vd Westhuizen, L Am, M Mspimpi, D Willemse ….. ..just saying
People honestly already forgot how close both those South African home tests were, madness 😅
Here is something to consider. So for the first ninety years of the Springboks, rugby was a "white" sport due Apartheid. People of colour could play it, but funding, coaching and facilities was a giant obstacle. With ±10% of our population playing, we set up an incredible rugby system that fed the most dominant team throughout the entire amateur era. No team, not even the All Blacks, was as dominant for as long as the Springboks were. The players we produced even then are S-tier; guys like Danie Gerber, Mannetjies Roux, Frik Du Preez, Naas Botha, Jan Ellis, Gerald Bosch etc.
Then came the end of Apartheid and we had to make shift - black representation was mandated and therefore initiatives were started to make the sport more accessible. This unfortunately went hand in hand with some political meddling, stern quota requirements and whatnot...but by hook or by crook, we got systems in place in order to development black talent and push them towards the formidable system we've built. Players of colour in especially the Cape provinces and the Xhosa people have taken to rugby.
So basically, take the 10% of the population that produced Danie Gerber and Naas Botha and then add another 20% of the population that produced the likes of Kolisi, Nche, Am, Paulse, Kolbe and Habana.
Zulu, Tswana, Sotho etc are less developed in their rugby cycle, but they'll get there.
If we could dominate the way we did with only 10% of our population... Engaging the other 90 to feed into our rugby conveyor is a rather frightening prospect.
with a tenth of your population we kick ur arse way too reguluarly allblacks have the positive head to head to head so suck it
The saddest thing about the political meddling is that it actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise. I remember the post 1995 teams that the Springboks fielded, from the lily white team that lost to the BI Lions in 1997 under Markgraaff to the sheer tokenism of later teams where the bare minimum of non-white players were included, mostly on the wing "where they could do the least damage". The forced inclusion made us look at the 'other 90%' and we have reaped some fantastic rewards as a result, but I strongly believe that if it wasn't for the quota system, we never would have heard of Bryan Habana, Kurt Lee Arendse, Lukhanyo Am, Siya Kolisi, to name a few, because there would be no reason to include them in the first place.
With our attitude of resisting black inclusion in the first place, and by that I mean systems and coaching, we lost out on some great players who could potentially have played a lot more than they ever did; Kennedy Tsimba, Kaya Malotana, Gobani Bobo, Solly Tyibilika.. all ended up on the fringes but we had the attitude of preferring the bigger Afrikaans boys, especially those from historic rugby schools.
I was talking to an English bloke on Facebook a few days ago, and this was basically the same position I held, we are going to do some magnificent things in Rugby when the ground structures are accessible to most of our population, currently it's still not easy to even play barefoot rugga for a significant chuck of our populace, the moment we get that and the culture and traditions established, Rugby might end up being as big, if not bigger than footy in our country.
The governance of our rugby is certainly more proffessional than those clowns at SAFA.
@randomlyfactual1943 are you drunk? In what universe were the South Africans more dominant than the AB's for more than a few brief periods???
Just look at your overall records against the top tier teams vs NZ. It's not even a close comparison! 🤣 I know you saffa fans can be delusional at times but mate, you need to go see a doctor or something because you have lost it! 😳
I agree mostly with what you are saying but also have to disagree in some cases. Guys like Bryan Habana (KES), Ngobane Bobo (Rondebosch) and Kagiso Rabada in cricket (St Stithians College) went to the schools they did by virtue of their parents and not by scholarships and were exceptional schoolboy sportsmen and made it all the way on skill and reputation alone. Bryan Habana was not given a special path where he ended up scoring the most tries for a Bok at 67 so in some cases the quota system played little to no role.
But what you are saying overall is pretty accurate but without the quota system it would have happened too - it just would have taken longer. I say it worked out fantastically well even though at times the quotas had worked against SA results while were were all learning how to get it right.
South African Springboks - still the ONLY rugby team to ever win back to back Rugby World Cups AWAY from home.
The only team nz was the first team to won back to back wc are u stupid or just playing dumb the bokke can never won the abs zero score event now while they building up a new team u must go and asked ur Jesus for help to think 😡
Springbok proven themselves that the Are better than any team at the moment in 2024 Rugby Championship
I Care about what Danny said...and Danny is legend. Visit our beautiful country Danny, always welcomed here.
At present strongly agree!!!
Bok supporter here. I don’t agree with Danny that the Boks 2nds would definitely beat the ABs, but the fact that it’s a debate actually answers the original question.
Here’s how to settle it: Who thinks the ABs 2nd team will beat the Boks? No debate there, which again, answers the question.
No one in NZ thinks their second team could beat the Boks.
The ABs overseas based players who are no longer eligible could probably give the Boks a run for there money. We are not desperate enough yet to pick overseas based players as the Boks have done so maybe the ABs have more depth than the Boks.
Here is the difference - the coaches! Remember Rassmus has been in there since 2017 and has established HIS systems and look at the results! Meanwhile we have a new coach and coaching staff and our game is NOT right - why????? Because NZ rugby is deluded with this idea about running playing entertaining rugby - it does not win world cups!!!!!
THe reason why the Boks are succeeding is because of their systems implemented by a great coach - that is why and what is the difference!
@@geotruthnz7013
Maybe. Out of interest can you name the overseas based team you would select to beat the Boks. That would make a pretty good debate...
The Boks' second team could beat the Boks' first team. And the Boks' third team could give the first team a good battle
That question about whether a second and third XV could beat most teams is a really good question. You wouldnt have an Eben, PSDT ot Kolbe but the quality of the players in many positions are pretty damn good for at least a second XV and quite a few for a third XV. Wings you have Mapimpi, Moodie, Edwill vd Merwe. Scrumhalves you have Williams, Reinach, Hendrikse. Centres you have Am, Esterhuizen. Flyhalves you have 2 of Libbok, Pollard, Feinberg-mgomezulu. Full Back you have 2 of Fassi, Willemse, Le Roux. We know the boks have at least 2 full packs without including players like Roos, Ben Jason Dixon, Ruan Nortje, Elrigh Louw. Considering all of that plus some URC players like Hanekom it does seem quite likely
The SA first 15 only just beat a very average NZ team in 2 home games. The second 15 would still be good, but it's absolutely crazy to say they would beat even the current ABs.
@@lunny2230 the wins were bigger than almost every game for the last 5 or 6 years.
The question isn't only about the All Blacks though. It's about "most teams".
@mallencolly you been drinking a bit tonight mate? 6 point and 4 point wins? 🤷 Hardly a demolision job was it??? And the question raised in the video was about the All Blacks.
@@lunny2230 most of the games over the last 5 or 6 years have been 1 or 2 points. A few have had more than that but not that many. That's just facts Nobody said anything about a demolition job. If you read the first sentence of my comment you'll see I specifically said "most teams"
I'm happy to discuss this but if you're going to argue it would probably better if you argued against what I've said not whatever you have imagined. It just works better that way.
Also, you may want to have a look at those team sheets if you think either of those teams was a first XV. Like no Etzebeth in one for a start 🤣
@mallencolly results for last 5 years (since 2019)
Draw
NZ by 10
NZ by 2
SA by 2
SA by 16
NZ by12
NZ by 15
SA by 28
SA by 1 (WC)
Please do point out how that list equates to "most of the games have been by 1-2 points". Seems like statistics, and facts aren't your strongest subjects mate. 🤷🤔
Also the video is about SA vs NZ. It's only you who made up the "most teams" part. 🤷
More class from another Ruggas Player. Well spoken Danny Care on the A Smith topic. While i agree, A smith was a better player, i am not sure we would see him taking on a question like DC did. Kudos to you. From another irritating WC X4 Saffa :)
The development of rugby amongst the black communities in our country has been a major contribution to our rugby and has given us the edge over the All Blacks. We are now in a privileged position to develop players from a much wider network and the future of rugby in our country looks great.
I'd like to SA play NZ in NZ
The coach Dr Rassie is mostly the difference in the two teams. The players are equally good. Stats don’t lie! Great show gents!
NZ produce better rugby players than any other country in the world. SA might have more rugby players playing internationally around the globe, but pure talent and better players, NZ produce more.
The past 10 test matches between the two country’s is a clear example of that fact. We won’t go into the past 30yrs, because that would be embarrassing for SA. But, in saying all that, to me, SA is the number 1 team in the world (don’t care what rankings say) and the two best players in the world are PSDT and Coby.
Couldn't resist posting the Boks' second team / third team 1. Steenekamp/ Kitshoff 2. Marx / Grobbelaar 3. Koch / Louw. 4. Kleyn / Moerat 5. RG / De Jager 6. Van Staden / Smith 7. Louw / BJD 8. Hanekom / Roos 9. Williams / Hendrikse 10. Pollard / Libbok 11. Mapimpi / vd Merwe 12. Esterhuizen / Am 13. Am / Moodie 14. Moodie / Van der Merwe 15. Fassie / Le Roux
Bok fan. I think SA and NZ are very equal these days, much more so than the past which was one sided.
Also I don't believe England under deliver. Last 4 World Cups finals they've played 3...England also been top 2-3 in six nations. I do believe English media are the teams own worst enemy. They might not have won anything but they've been up there consistently. In reality, the are playing France and Ireland best ever and Scotland as well.
STRONGLY AGREE
Am Englisch Rugby Player,what do you exspect.
From an lrish Rugby Fan,i can Not wait for the next six Nations ,in Dublin🥰
Solid starters on the Boks are Ox, Eben, PSDT, Kolisi, DeAllende & Cheslin are the solid starters. The other 9 can be switched and changed depending on what the mission is. 49 different players in the rugby championship shows how deep our squad can be.
lets be real, the boks were unbelievably lucky to have both their games at home this year.
Springboks were lucky to win the world cup, helped out in the Quarter and Semi by a Kiwi Ref
So bitter that they changing the rules, cause SA is sooooo good..shame the rest always need 16 players on the field
@@dragonfire4957 youre ranked #2 not 1 😂
@@Edgycoo Such a dumb argument, every team got a chance to have two home games against one of the other teams. New Zealand got to play both games against Argentina at home, why didn't they win both games? Argentina play Australia twice at home, why didn't they win both games?
@@adrianpheiffer9960 argentina are lower ranked than they should be. But the top two seeds shouldnt see one get two home games thats ridiculous. Like to see how two games at eden park would go.
Ardent Springbok fan for 7o years.Yes we have real depth now.What however astounds me is that we only have one reliable place kicker in Pollard.I am perplexed ‘cause there are brilliant kicking coaches around who are not utilised.
I put it to you: Barring injuries, the Boks could play 3 teams across 3 continents on one Rugby Championship weekend, and win all 3.
aye no way dude remember when u sent springboks2nd to albany auckland and lost 60 -0 dreamers
These guys are English not south African. Danny crane played in the semi finals in last years world cup
@@mattf1998 you have to go back 7 years to find some 'evidence' to disprove the statement? Not trying to poke the bear here mate, but have you seen what has happened in competition between the two since then?
😂😂😂😂agree with Danny
South Africa used 36 (something along those lines) of players for the TRC. They used 42+ if you extend for the June test. Just the TRC team (players who actually played), gets you 3 teams. Surely we are not even questioning the strength of the 3rd team's forward pack. Trevor N, Thomas Du Toit, can't even make the 3rd team. Hooker would be a genuine 3rd team player (the weakest link) - probably Grobbelaar or Venter. Locks would be Jean Klein, Moorat, or Nortje. World class. Etzebeth, Mostert, De Jager, Snyman are in the first 2 teams. And the loosies would be Marco van staaden, Elrich Louw or Evan Roos and Cameroon Hannekom. That pack is ridiculous, with one lossie and the hooker being the weakest position. Backline would be ridiculous - we have 5 world class half-backs (Faf, Reinach, Hendrikse, Williams and Morne) at the moment, Libbok would be 10, Moodie at centre, Fassie at 15, Van der merwe on one wing, and the other prob Grant Williams (plenty half backs to spare), and the final centre could be Hartzenburg, David Kriel. In summary, Hooker, one loosie and one centre would be the weakest positions (and only weak because the later 2 haven't any international experience) - for a 3rd team that is an impressive line-up.
New Zealand produce the best rugby coaches, players , managers. It’s a world known fact
Sailors, cricketers too. But shocking beer, Steinlager.
@@roryblake3232 You need to try a ice cold Waikato Green Label beer on a hot day.
Sa 2nd Team: Steenekamp, Marx, Koch, RG Snyman, Mostert / Nortje, Kwagga, van Staden, Louw, G Williams, Sascha, Moodie, Esterhuizen, Am, Mapimpi, Willemse / Fassie Bench: T Du Toit, Grobbelaar / Wessels, W Louw, Mostert / Nortje, BJ Dixon / Hanekom, Reinach (debatable position) and Willie.
This dude is melting
We've always developed good rugby players in the past. Especially through our school and varsity systems. But since Dr Johan Erasmus took charge, We've turned great players into superstars. That is the advantage of excellent leadership. #forever green&gold. Go bokke 🇿🇦
Books are the complete rugby nation.
Aaron Smith is held in the highest regard in South Africa, he's a class 9 with all the skills...and yes England should win more..
I read recently that the fastest dying sports in NZ and Aus is rugby union. I can’t believe this. Is this true? That’s not good for both those countries, and equally not good for world rugby. As for SA, the supply of talent that’s been opened up in the rural areas is phenomenal. The beast is finally being unleashed. The future for SA rugby looks strong.
The literal awakening of a sleeping dragon comes to mind.
"I think they will be alright" 🤣🤣🤣👌
Nick your n legend mate.
They should be . They have 6 times more player stock
Good concept to apply to Rugby! A little shilling for the Bok fans thrown in. Got to admire it. The more complimentary you can be to Bok fans the quicker you'll grow.
Hee hee you learn fast
One thing to consider to is all the Springboks are born and bred in South Africa. The All Blacks have always dabbled in the other Pacific Island nations. Further, the depth argument at this point clearly in favour of South Africa.
South Africa have tradtionally used Zimbabwean players. Plus think of all the top players New Zeland produces for other nations. Bundi Aki, James Low,Gibson Parl, Antonio, Meafou.
@@BertFlashman Only Beast Mtawarira is a Zimbo
@@BertFlashman😂😂😂😂 just Beast my man, check the facts. Actually Zimbabwe and Namibia use SA players in their squad don't get confused please.
@@BertFlashman There have been like 5 foreign born Springboks in the last 35 years. And 1 in last 15. That’s nothing compared to the All Blacks. To say they’ve traditionally always used Zimbabweans is an outrageous exaggeration. And the Springboks have also had a lot of great exports to other countries. Look at Scotland right now. England, France and Ireland have all had their share as well. Your points are moot.
I think NZ gets a lot of immigration from Samoa, Tonga and the like where rugby is very popular. I believe there are more NZ born players in the Samoan and Tongan teams at the World Cup. SA tends to get immigrants from countries where football (soccer) is most popular to play.
Player pool in SA is now massive with a new DNA of athlete as players of colour are joining the sport on mass. The rugby structures are still strong.
cant wait for spring boks to play Ireland in Ireland, home advantage and it was 1/1, Ireland have their number
But Ireland doesn't have the RWCs number 😂
Boks pull the Irish pants down, in both the world cups and head to head between the 2 teams🇿🇦🙂. Irish rugby are in the Boks shadow and always have been 👌🏻🙂
Agree SA does produce better players - this is why we have 3 out of 4 nominations of IRB player of the year
This is why Danny isnt starting this weekend is it?🤣😆🤣🤣
Ahhh. Good point! 😑
I remember 10+ years ago as a Bok supporter…
If the current All Blacks played last year, they would have essentially been considered a second team and yet they held up pretty well against the Boks in the TRC.
If NZ super rugby teams could play more competitive opposition they would be back to their own high standards and you would not have this discussion.
Meanwhile SA who have 10 times more players got the luxury to take part in two quality competitions at the same time. Thats winning the lottery.
And winning comes more regularly now that they don't have to play Nz teams anymore.
Rassie himself doesn't pick the best players, he chooses the RIGHT players. He likes mongrel dogs, not flash. He wants guys that will stay in the fight even when the cause is lost.
The question is are these Springboks (2019 - now) better than the 2009-2015 ABs?
Danny Care got a lot of headknocks from his playing days
Now yes, but history it's AB all day.
Loved this lads… In the past 8years or so SA have been on the up, I think SA leaving the SR. Lead to the drop in form of NZL and Aus. . . They need replenish and rebuilding, as for producing quality players or athletes. I’d argue and say that the reason we see 7/3 or 8/2 split it’s because most current SA players are quite versatile! Danny raised a valid point about Andre . . . Lastly England have not been a consistent outfit, especially with the quality they’ve had over the years.
South Africa were the worst performing teams in Super Rugby so I don't buy in to that. The ABs are coming back, NZ just had a tough few years with lockdowns etc and we are now ready to roll again.
@@geotruthnz7013 there’s no denying that the AB’s will bounce back again. The standard of rugby has dropped in the SR Pacific, look at Aussies for instance…
@@GT-fmf6170 The Aussie teams aren't as bad as what people think. They are playing against historically the best franchises in the world who the South African teams struggled against as well only winning super titles 3 times, Aussies won 4 titles. People love to bag others comps to make themselves feel better which is not needed.
@@geotruthnz7013 what have Aussie achieved in the past 8 years? Let’s play the ball here mate , The AB’s have dominated world rugby for a minute or two. I am not delusional when I say we’re in our golden era, and we have quality in depth ! In closing NZL will always be our greatest rival, one day we’ll have a pint and talk more about rugby 👊🏿🍻
@@GT-fmf6170 Ozzy have a reasonable amount of average players who are alright at club level but they haven't yet stepped up on the International stage. The OZ franchises also get some kiwis to play which helps with the teams quality. This whole chat is in response to your club comp dig though and not internationals. But long live the Springboks, at least International Rugby is more interesting again.
It is very close but at the moment I think SA is ahead and if SA will have a second team who can consistantly play together then I agree that they might beat the All Blacks. I won't say will coz anything can happen on the day and that would be ignorant but a team with the likes of Libbok, Cameron etc is crazy to think of.
Population of South Africa 63 million, Population of NZ just over 5 million
Yeah let's just forget how you take the cream of the pacific islands or the fact that 80% of South Africans are not interested in rugby ( but boy is that changing) and play football.
@@jksinorbit Population of Fiji less than a million, Tonga 100,00, Samoa 118,000.Id say these three produce the best rugby players.
Good point. As a supporter of the world champions I have to concede this. NZ player management is unequalled.
NZ play predominantly rugby, RSA predominantly play soccer🤷
Plus Tonga plus Samoa plus Fiji
The real problem this year for the AB's has been 10 and 9. Now they have Roigard back and hopefully next year Mounga they will be a completely different beast with those two players. Mounga is clearly the best 10 in the world and Roigard will take that mantle off Dupont in the coming years.
How can a second 15 beat the all black first 15 when the South Africa first is scraping by one to five points to win?
Because there is barely any difference in quality between the 1st and 2nd teams.
I strongly agree that the Sprinboks produce better players (as a team) compared to the ABs.
Currently, Springboks easily. 2nd team for sure would be fairer competition for the All Blacks but this does not take away from the quality the All Blacks produce.
Hulle weet nie wat ons weet nie
I think player for player NZ are better. My Boks as as individuals play as a better “system”.
Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble……
That first argument broke the second he said "to play their brand" because how many South Africans are playing across the rugby WORLD, his argument has no foothold because an argument can be made that the Boks are the most versatile side currently.
It's been a minute since the world was excited about a NZ player 🤷
Roigaard will change that
SA pool their players from citizens. Apart from this, SA could have very bad, but give Rassie the accolade. I know everyone will go at me for that, but Rassie build the person!
Kiwis will literally murder you for making that statement😂😂
Or threaten you online.
As a Springbok Supporter - I say we heading into the direction where our 2nd team could possibly beat NZ 1st, in 2 years mayeb but not now. (We just beat them at home)
You barely beat them at home with the first team. Boks fans are too arrogant now it's terrible
@@rileyfreeman9726honestly I swear bok fans were born yesterday 😂, they got memory loss of when we used to smoke them 57-0, 57-14, we are no where near as trash as they used to be 😅
South Africa without first choice 15 in no one is injured:
1. Kitshoff
2. Mbonambi
3. Koch
4. Snyman
5. Mostert
6. Kwagga
7. Louw
8. Roos
9. Williams
10. Libbok
11. Mapimpi
12. Esterhuizen
13. Am
14. Moodie
15. Fassi, Willie, SFM
I don't know about better rugby players. SA has a very good coach
Ok so in their argument of “better player”. What makes a better player? A guy with flashy passing or a guy winning a rugby game.
SA's 2nd team is almost as strong at the first team!
I think the correct question here is, would the SA 4th team beat Australia at the moment? 😘
Lets go back to the match before the world cup
SA is producing more quality players(as they should with their rugby population). Better is very subjective.
The all blacks particularly since 87 have set the benchmark in the evolution of Rugby. Today The Speed, skills and Style of Rugby perpetuated by NZ transformed the game away from South African Style of Play at that time focused on huge men up front to pound you into the dirt which allowed the fleet footed backs to spring into action.This type of game bought much success for the Boks.However the ABs went the otherway ,Set phase play the platform was transitioned to multi phase attack particularly in open or broken play which speed up the game to NZs benefit and SAs decline.The mighty Boks whom i say play the toughest Rugby discovered "Tough ain't Enough"As a player,coach and Managerial person almost 50 years of Linement up my nose this is what I have learnt and observed.South Africa has gone back to its strengths and style of play .Rassie has done nothing more than return to what works,The bomb squad proved my point ,Top heavy forwards will always grind skilled players into the dirt 5 yards out 9 out of 10.
It's an easy debate. If.you picked a 23 out of SA and NZ right now youd have 15 Boks and 8 Kiwis. SA still getting a few players back from injury and a few new stars coming into the mix.
So is NZ wait until you see how good a player Roigard becomes. He will rival if not be better than Dupont and score way way more tries than him. Southafrica are weak at halfback and 10 if NZ get Mounga back next year.
SA were lucky to beat NZ in the last 3 tests they have played. Boks have a great team at the moment. Similarly the All Blacks had a great team between 2011 and 2017.SA second xv would lose.
The 2nd v 1st XV , the only position where there might be a short coming for SA is replacing PSTD
2nd XV that will make it a 1 point game vs AB's 1st XV
Kitshof , Marx , Trevor , Snyman,Klein , Smith , Dixon , /Louw , Williams ,Mngomozulu , Mapimpi , Esterhuizen , Am , E vd Merwe , Le Roux
Considering a First XV
Ox , Bongi ,Malherbe , Etzebeth , Nortje , Kolisi, Du Toit , Wiese , Reinach, Arendse,Pollard, De Allende, Kriel, Kolbe , Fassi
Which 1 of those 2 teams won't beat NZ ?
Then there has to be mentioned players left out
Steenkamp , Mostert ,De Klerk , Libbok , Moody , D Williams , Wilco Louw , Hanekom , Hendrikse Brothers, Van Staden
The fact that an newish all black team beat a ENGELAND TEAM TIMES and this one guy is more worried about the boks is KAK FUNNY
Yes because the Boks are better than the ABs so makes sense that he is more worried about the Boks.🙂👌🏻
South Africa is number one. But their 2nd 15 does not beat the All Blacks or any other top team for that matter. Dumbest thing I’ve heard in a awhile
Ireland has won last 5/6 against S.A.. S.A. number 1?😅
@@croissants1280 yeah but only won 10 out of the last 29 games against the springboks. How many world cups do they have? Zero Ireland is not as good as they think. Go win a world cup then you can talk boy.
@@croissants1280 The best Ireland could ever achieve is quarter finals. LMAO
@@lht1523 I disagree. It's not that our strongest team is invincible. We could lose against any team in the top 10. But, our top 30 player are pretty much the same quality. You could make up a team of any of our top 30 players and the quality of the team would roughly be the same. You could chose the weakest 15 and the strongest 15 from the top 30 and it would be a toss up on who would win if they played against each other.
This is credit to Rassie for building squad depth like we have never seen in SA history. I think part of it his bomb squad system that the subs basically play half the game. No other SA coach have done that.
Subs in the past, was generally seen as a way to experiment or bleed new talent, so they were not on par with the first 15.
@@edrianluyt8735 I hear you. And I agree that you guys have incredible depth. Kudos not only to Rassie but the whole coaching staff and system they are amazing. But the last 2 games showed that the All Blacks can handle whatever 15 SA chooses to field. It is the reserves that close out the game. In a imaginary scenario where there is only 15 men (which is the original point), the All Blacks beat them. That is my opinion
The last question is and has always been flawed. Simply because, the more players a country's camp has to select from, the harder it is to select from it, therefore, that's one reason for underachieving, it's as simple as that. It's not an excuse, it's a fact haha. This is what narrow minded people don't realise.
No debate South Africa produces better players. Furthermore look at the rotation of players currently being implemented by Rassie. 49 players used in the rugby championship. We don’t import any players from ”the islands”
Our school boy rugby is off charts - just ask Tim from Eggchasers. The bok factory is in full flow and we are only destined to produce more and more talent. Where arguably rugby as a sport is dying in other countries, in SA rugby is growing.
Boks for the next decade at least will be very difficult to beat
Hold tight cuzzy
New Zealand or New Zealand and their academy islands?
The AB's are in a very dark place and need to short them self's out first. The big problem came with South Africa leaving the Super Rugby.
Nt so much leaving, as being pushed out, that was a foolish decision.
It’s a few points at best at home in both tests with a very average abs side against the best springbok side ever yer the hype train is full steam now
South Africa still has not produced a player close to
Dan Carter
Richie McCaw
New Zealanders still living in 2015
Who is Nick Evans?
Easily would have been an All Black legend if Dan Carter didn't exist.
Since South Africa ditched Apartheid, and introduced coloured and black players, and really embracing them, they have become an unbeatable force. All those imported Afrikaans players are amazing 😆 🤣 😂
The core of the springboks players that won the last world cup is the same core that lost to NZ just 6 months prior to the world cup
They just bought into Rasies vision of what they could become
Both NZ and SA have outstanding talent on an individual base but if the coaching staff can't translate a vision to a on field performance that is all they will amount to brilliant athletes
I don’t think an SA second team would beat the ABs at all. Interesting that this is even a talking point though
I think Faf is better than Aron Smith .
South Africa in South Africa at the peak of their powers just beat the All Blacks by 4pts & 6pts respectively hardly thrashings, and in the 4pt win they were awarded a try that was a CLEAR KNOCK ON. You would’ve thought they won both games by 30 🥴🥴🥴 by the way I’m not arguing that the Boks aren’t better right now (they are look at the trophy cabinet) but 2nd team beating the All Blacks best team? Nah not having it. Would loved to have seen the Boks play in NZ this yr cos I don’t think they win. They barely won in their own backyard.
The best ever All Black side in 2015 won the semi against the Boks a mighty 2 points. What u going on about?
@@cfbythebeach the best ever Boks team won by 1 point against probably NZ's worst ever team, with 14 players on the field! Then followed it up at home with 2 very unconvincing wins. Your team is better at the moment, but the level of delusional arrogance from fans like you is genuinely hillarious! 🤣
The springboks at the moment I think are the best team of all time and would beat any all black team in history. The all blacks have dominated the sport since time immemorial but the current bok outfit keeps getting better and better. I could definitely see the springbok second team beating the all blacks first 15, they've always had the best defence and if they pair that with an ever more threatening attack, they will be a dominant force.
WOW! That's a statement. Might be a great debate between our esteemed guests. They're definitely dominant at the moment. Hard to measure all of the facets objectively, but it's not to be laughed at for sure. Thanks, Team DC
@ Rassie gets a lot of credit but you can already see the huge difference Tony Brown has made to the springboks proclivity to run from their own 22, dedicate less men to the ruck and use quick ball etc.
@@Travis-mj1iq TB is world-class as an attack coach. Imagine how that guy is developing and what he's going to be like for ABs any other team in the future...mind-blowing. And...it's great rugby too, brave, confident...love it!
Mmmh, im South African. Ive got massive respect for the kiwis. I think its a bit disrespectful to New Zealand. Our second team migjt get close. But i dont believe we are that much better. I think honestly of we had more money, its possible. We definitely have more players and the talent to do it. If we had the funds to help the players.
I think 1st, 2nd and 3rd team would get close. It talks to the depth and consistency of the squad. Whilst we do have a pecking order of 1 through to 3, I think they are pretty close. A 3rd team only starts looking light in 1 or 2 positions (Hooker and Centre). That is unbelievable!!
@@DoNotCareAboutYourOpinions 60million still have trouble beating a country that has 5. and can only win by apoint against 14 kiwis yah ur so much depth comments are screaming insecurity is looking more like ego babbling
@@shanecriddle-z5h A win is a win. Look at the bok's trophy cabinet for 2024. Just a gentle reminder.
@@kurtfrancis6638 truth is ur mid field is taking acting lessons from football basically diving facefirst into collisons to win by goal kicks and staying down dead till tmo gets involved not honourable