Saucony Endorphin Speed 4 - Everyday versatility
Вставка
- Опубліковано 14 чер 2024
- Some thoughts after 106.8km (66.4mi) in the new Saucony Endorphin Speed 4.
0:00 Intro
2:44 Specs
3:42 Upper & fit
8:07 Midsole
10:10 Outsole
11:10 Key technologies on the run
14:07 Run feel & performance
19:04 Versatility for any type of run
21:14 Outro
The History and Future of the Saucony Endorphin Series - Where it has been and going next. • The History and Future...
Tim Gross UA-cam Channel: / @timgrose
Disclosures: No one is paying me to make this video and no one has any editorial control over the contents of this video. Additionally, I have no connection into Saucony’s design or marketing process. Everything I cover in this video is my own opinion and experience.
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Intro & outro music from Epidemic Sound:
Searching Forever - dreem
www.epidemicsound.com/artists...
🤙🏻 - Спорт
Absolutely love the Speed series. I have 1 pair of the v1 and 2 pairs of the v3 totalling 1800km. A swiss army knife of a shoe. Can't wait to get my hands on the v4. Saucony month is in full swing, thanks for the vid 🤙🏿
Ya… I see many more kms into this shoe this year for me. It’s very very versatile and great for that.
Excellent. Comprehensive review. Your understanding of the shoe is amazing. Your analysis of shoes is always spot on.
Thank you. Thank you. 🙏🏻
Great review Chris, much exceeded my expectations. Nylon plate was spot on invention since v.1. Can't wait for your Endorphin Pro 4 review now.
Nike has used nylon plates in the past, but never as soft and flexible as what won the ES4. It really is the magic of this shoe. It works so very well.
I think PEBA is also a specific class of nylon and PEBA/PEBAX used to be common for stiffening shanks in shoes a few years ago. But the branding wasn’t about “plates” until after the Vaporfly 4% was released with Breaking2.
Same for shanks in many flats and trainers…
Subscribed now you cover Saucony! Love the Speed!
A few more Saucony shoes on the way...glad to have you here. 🤙🏻
Very good review. 4 is in between 3 and 1/2, a touch softer and bouncier than the 1s but not as soft as the 3s. Good for everything if you just need one shoe.
I definitely felt that the 4 was more forgiving than the 1… I chalked that up to the 3s influence.
Good you got to review a Speed and thanks for the shout out towards the end. Proves I watched all of it :) You are right a Speed (any version) is largely good for anything. I did my longest ever run (35 miles/55K) in the Speed 2 Runshield in 2021 and it wasn't even wet and have had 4 pairs of that one plus more than one of all the other versions and may well get another 4 when the time comes. I find they are generally good for me up to about 250 miles but find the cushioning under the toes degrades first for me and when try a new one know has been best to switch. I mainly use a Speed as a "daily" trainer but it is the sort of shoe that does not feel laboured if say got some strides to do at the end of the run or just want to push on a bit. I've done sessions in it and, like anything, you could race in it but I just feel got better options like umpteen Vaporflys for a start. Fundamentally the Speed 1 to 4 I don't think has changed much and I rather concluded the 3 and 4 are functionally very very similar for me if slightly better fit in the 4 for my narrow feet. As you implied fit isn't wonderful but good enough and with narrow feet there are hardly any shoes that fit me like a glove anyway. I do feel the Speed 1 and 2 were just a little more "speedy" but I think Saucony are wanting to make the difference between the Speed and Pro a little more obvious than it was in the 1st version with then largely the only difference the nylon or carbon plate. That said the good thing about that nylon plate is that it is indeed very flexible so a lot of the time don't really notice it is there which I think adds to the "everyday" appeal. I've working through lots of "lightish" daily trainers in last few months ( Novablast 4, Rebel v4, Mach 6, Velocity Nitro 3) but I think the Speed 4 is the one I will come back to more out of choice and I still have a lot of miles left in my 4th Speed 2 Runshield which is such a handy shoe if it is a bit wet. Now the Pro 4 I haven't yet been convinced to pick up so will be keen to hear if you think it is given I already have a lightly used Pro 3, even less on an Elite plus of course plenty of life left in lots of Vaporflys and I even dug a new to me pair of VF1 that I got from StockX recently.
It’s really your “influencing” that got me to finally try this series again. I agree with your use case of this shoe fully! Pair is with a non-plated trainer and you have most things covered for daily running very well.
I also financier pairs with a Vaporfly well, more the VF3 though. It has similar flex (but more of it) and a somewhat similar ride to me.
@@SagasuRunning I wonder if you still had that Speed 1 whether you might like it more than you seemed to at the time. Back in 2020 everything that came out I felt was not as good as a Vaporfly 1 (and perhaps not sure I still like anything better) but I always felt I "need" to use shoes outside of races and sessions that aren't well race shoes so don't get too used to them. Speed came along when the Peg Turbo was starting to get harder to get and the Boston 9 was, for me at least, really too small in the largest US 13 they then did. And I have always through 40 years as a runner preferred to use a lightweight ish trainer for my "daily" miles. Partly because in my boat US 14 feet many shoes just become too bulky and even the dreaded "brick".
@TimGrose Possibly… but it’s something I’ll never know. I do think there are many good non plated daily options out there now, though with your feet… it’s very subjective I know.
… and yes… still nothing feels quite like a Vaporfly…
Excellent video as always,thx for sharing.
Did try them on ,also the pro 4 as well,found them baggy and somehow longer than the speed 3 and the pro 3 which both I own.
Would be great to know your opinion how this compares to the Boston 12, seriously thinking about to pick that up soon,as my speed 3 is reaching the 350 miles soon.
Thx again for the input
Next two videos on the channel are “vs” videos comparing the ES4 to the Mach 6 and the B12… stay tuned…
@@SagasuRunning fantastic,thx a lot
Super insightful review! Do you think it’s also suitable for long runs?
Sure, though I would prefer something with a firmer foam for anything over 25-30k.
Im using these and Superblast. Very happy with this combo.
There quite a contrast… but if it works for you… then go for it.
What are you using each for?
See my most recent video comparing the ES4 to the B12.
@@Fozzee.1970 SB for long/easy/daily mileage. I love its comfort and versatility. Also no plate.
ES4 for interval/treadmill/track/threshold. Feels faster more snug and nimble.
Its TIME!!
It sure is…
Speed 2 and 3 have been great for me. Really feel they are the shoes that you can do anything with, especially number 3.
I did have to buy a second pair of the 3s and other than rebel v3 its the only time I bought a second pair of the same shoe.
I get why people enjoy the Speed as much as they do. While not perfect it is a very compelling package.
Let’s go!!
🤙🏻
Speed 3 is one of my favorite shoes. Plate in the 4 is a little stiffer (though not as stiff as in ES1-2), which some people like. Overall, a highly versatile shoe.
I absolutely cannot imagine this shoe being any softer or less stiff… I’m glad I didn’t try the Speed 3… it sounds like so not my thing.
Awesome review! I’m have 175-180 cadence, and I find the speed 3 is fine to work with because the plate is flexible, easy just to enjoy the foam. However the pro 3 kinda pushes me for higher cadence because the plate is stiff. Seems like the speed roll is not as aggressive in the 4th generation, maybe I can enjoy them a bit more, lol.😂
I don’t believe the plate geometry has changed drastically between generations of the shoe. It’s less in your face in the Speed due to the flex. The stiffer plate in the Pro makes it more apparent. I do often find heavy toe rocker gets in the way of my natural cadence and often slows it down.
Watching this now but should have listened to you on the Takumi Sen 10. I think you said in your video review to size up but I went with my TTS in all other Adios US M 9 and my toes were all the way to the top but I still needed to use a runners loop to get the heel locked down and ended up with a minor laceration to the right lower aspect of my exterior ankle after 8K. I guess I can try and run without socks and place bandaids below my ankles.
Besides that the shoe felt good and fast.
Well… I DID point it out with a full chapter and measurements to back it up. 😎
The change shocked me actually.
I’m glad you are finding a way to make the shoe runnable at least…
Thank you for the review. I haven’t tried the 4 but the 3 hurts the lateral side of my left foot. No clue why but I can’t get around it!
If that’s in the mid foot it is likely the wings on the plate. They are very close to the foot. If not it could be the taper in the forefoot which I always find odd on Saucony shoes.
Great review!! When u say, 5k pace, how does this compare to Takumi Sen 10 (excluding the weight offcourse)?
Would this be a good option for speed work, tempo, intervals?
The TS10 is MUCH better for faster paces and dedicated speed work. The ES4 can do it, but like any Swiss Army knife… it’s not exactly the perfect tool for the job.
This was actually my question as well. The TS10 you said was more versatile than the 8/9 and it seems like it would fill a similar job of all workout shoe that the Speed 4 would.
I don’t want to order both just to see though. I’m mostly using the TS9 and Adios 8 for this role now with my pair Adios Pro 3 for long runs still going strong despite nearing 600km.
@@brianreiter5572 yeah for me I now keep ap3 and speed 4.
But i mostly focus on speed work for now, for now as a beginner I try to create plan that has speed sessions in it (Tempo Tuesday and Intervals Wednesday). Hence most of this I use AP3 for now as I dont wanna buy TS10 atleast for now.
The other runs (Easy, Long) I use Speed 4 and I particularly enjoyed Speed 4 on Long Runs, maybe it just me?
The TS10 can fill that role… but its main focus is still fast running/racing and it does that much better.
I’m going to get into this topic, in depth, in my ES4 vs B12 video this Thursday.
For your case… the Speed 4 is totally fine. You have two solid options.
I do kinda like the upper... but then there is the thing: I often run in things like the adios pro 3, and compared to that shoe, every upper is a dream to your feet.
I have one thing to ask about the mid foam: according to our Saucony rep pwrun pb is not fully peba, he said its tpu (or tpe I forgot) with SOME peba in there. Do you know if he just made a mistake or is there something on it?
Also the Nylon plate has wings in the midfoot, mainly to add stability.
I do have the Speed 3 and the Speed 4, and I like the speed 4 a lot better. The fit is less roomy (I have very wide feet) and it feels soft but firm enough to pick up the pace.
The speed 3 just felt like the Saucony Tempus without the firmer stability foam.
I'm really glad that you actually enjoy the Speed 4 and cant wait to hear your thought about the Pro4.
Thank you for you work :3
Well… the AP3 upper is a design/engineering failure… but the materials and quality are high. The issue with the ES4 upper is that it’s sloppy and vague AND cheaply made.
I believe, technically speaking, PEBA foam (including PEBAX) is within the family of TPEe foams… I’ve never heard PWRRUN PB describe as a blended foam though.
Maybe someone will clarify in the comments.
@@SagasuRunning My understanding is too little to differ what high quality really means in that topic. I thought the uppers of AP3/TKS9 are really really cheap till I got proven different.
I meant I understand what you mean but for example the speed 4 and especially! the Pro 4 did really really good in the durability tests (Holding a dremel on it etc.)
AP3 I tried 2 laces to get at least a proper lockdown lol! But still not comfortable. Now I try to find the same laces as in the Pro 4 for the AP3.
You should see my prime x2's, I added extra padding around the heel, upper inside and in midfoot area, not sure if thats creative or just dumb to stick with adizeros.
The Pro 4 upper material is exceptional… one of the best I’ve seen on a race shoe actually. It shoes Saucony can engineer good materials.
I’m lucky, Adizero uppers fit me, generally speaking. The heel lift issues and lockdown issues many complain about never give me issues. I do have issues with some Adizero uppers… but those are more specific design/engineering issues.
@@SagasuRunning I made a mistake: I thought the triumph do has pwrrun pb aswell, but its pwrrun+ and this foam is tpu based beaded foam. No clue where I got that that its mixed up with pb, maybe I got it wrong.
Sorry for confusion.
The Triumph 22 will be full PWRRUN PB though… so maybe that is where you got it.
Agree with you on the fit and upper material… that lateral toe box taper was a killer for me, made the shoe unusable, and the upper material simultaneously seems a step down but also overdone. The midsole felt great, but I wasn’t willing to sacrifice my pinkies for it. The Pro fits me better.
Ya… the upper wasn’t a deal breaker for me as it doesn’t cause any pain… but it is disappointing and I can see where it would be a hard pass for some.
I wasn't willing to tempt fate with the ES V4, due to heel lift. I just retired my ES V3 at 760km after changing it to a daily/strides only shoe, due to heel lift. Already have a pair of Boston 12's which I barely use due to their heel lift issues. Which is too bad, since both the ES and Boston have great midsole implementations.
I went ahead and bought a 2nd pair of Novablast V3 (since I find the pace ranges more versatile than the V4) and the Asics heel lockdowns are industry leaders.
I'd like to see Saucony implement that heel padding pillow they have on the E Pro Elite. Same with Adidas, they like their split heel collar padding strips, which if they simply connected would probably solve a lot of heel lift issues.
I was shocked about the heel fit in the ES4. I’m someone who never have t lift issues in shoes and even I noticed it.
Agree on Adidas making their heel bumper one piece. It is a simple change they would only make the shoes better for more and not even require a major rethink.
Interesting chart. Technically not a race shoe, which could explain things, but I find the Adios Pro 3 softer than my Superblast. The latter is over 100 miles so not a break in issue.
The ES4 is not a race shoe (though it is often suggested to be one for many runners) it PERRUN PB is one of Saucony’s race foams.
Would this shoe be a more versatile alternative to the Superblast, and possibly both the Superblast and Novablast?
Similar but different. Check out the end of the video going live on the channel Thursday… the ES4 vs B12 video… at the end I discuss this question and try to give it some definition.
I love the upper and fit of speed 3, which had me a bit suprised when I tried speed 4 in shop and it was a letdown. It felt ... Cheap? Which is strange when the upper of the 3 felt like a racing shoe but comfortable, if that makes sense.
Anyway, my whole shoe rotation got replaced by the Superblast.😂
The textile on the Pro 4 is very nice and premium feeling (it’s and evolution of the Pro+ textile and the Pro 3 textile). The problem is Saucony can’t help themselves but put cheap overlays all over it. The textile on the ES4 is very cheap over all…
Superblasts are fun… but best used in limited doses… at least for me. Great shoe though.
Excellent and thorough review; you cover technical aspects better than any other reviewers I watch, with good explanations to back up your thoughts on the running experience. I have the Speed 2, and I like it but find it a little unstable so don't reach for it that often.
Interesting comments about the fit. I've realised how personal this is and that one can't rely solely on reviews. Last week I bought some Triumph 21s, which get great reviews and apparently have a slightly wider than normal toe-box. But I found them tight in the toe-box so have sent them back, and am getting Speed 3s as a replacement ( I considered the V4, but the 3s are on sale and are lighter, which I prefer). The Novablast and Superblast both fit very comfortably, as do my Speed 2s and Tempus, so I don't know why the Triumphs felt so tight.
So I'll use the Novablast for recovery and easy runs, the Superblast for faster long runs, and the Speed 3s for long runs and when I want some versatility. Can't decide whether to keep the Speed 2s or sell them; they only have 40-50 miles on them.
I appreciate the feedback and kind words.
Yes, fit is deeply personal and I find it fascinating how much it differs person to person.
Those Speed 2s are classics at the point. Almost worth keeping for an archive.
been waiting for this one and it delivered! but now I need help...i currently have 320+ miles in my Novablast 3s and need a new pair of do-it-all shoes. do i grab the novablast 4s? or do i consider the ES4 or Superblast? i'm torn...my long run/easy pace is 8:45-9:00 per mile; which do you think is the way to go? i just can't justify multiple pairs of shoes. i just need one shoe that can do it all. this review makes me think the ES4 could be that shoe but the nb4 and superblast could just as easily fit the bill. help!
If you had to pick one, I’d suggest the NB4. I’m not an advocate for training in plated shoes 100% of the time… and the Superblast is overkill. A NB4 & ES4 (or. ES4 and the upcoming Triumph 22) would cover all of your bases well.
@@SagasuRunning thanks, Chris! really appreciate the advice. big fan of your channel and i'm excited for the upcoming videos
Thank you for the kind words and support. 🤙🏻
@@SagasuRunning I'm curious to why you'd avoid training in a plated shoe, assuming that the (nylon) plated shoe has the same flexibility as the non-plated shoe - I do understand your point when talking about very stiff carbon plated shoe. A superblast for example aims to provide the same kind of energy return with its pebax foam as the speed but it requires a humongous stack height to make the pebax foam stable...whilst the speed can go away with much less stack height because the nylon plated brings the stability. Or am I wrong here?
You are correct… but a non plated shoe is always going to offer a more natural flex and force your foot to build strength. Even the flexible ES4 is still plated… I notice it when running a non plated daily trainer quite a bit.
Foot strength is key and if you are always in a plated shoe, or a rockered shoe, you aren’t maximizing building the foot strength. Training in any one type of shoe is less than optimal… rotating a non-plated, flexible tempo shoe (plated or unplated) and a stiff carbon race shoe gives you the best of all worlds.
Do you have recommendation running shoes for daily and speed ??
I mean… if you like this shoe… it’s a good speed option… combined with a Saucony Ride 17 (or upcoming Triumph 22) for daily.
Would you recommend it more than the Boston 12?
You’ll see in the video I post on Thursday of this week…
Nice Review, but I also found the upper baggy and runs longer than my sp3’s
The sloppy baggy feeling of this upper just makes no sense to me. It all comes down to material choices they could have been easily changed.
15:18 it will be interesting to see what they do with the triumph 22 then!
Agree. I’m wondering how much firmer they will need to make it in the T22. I’ll be covering the shoe just to find that out.
@@SagasuRunningnice!
How do you compare this vs deviate nitro 2?
I haven’t run in the DN2… but will be comparing this shoe to the DN3 when it releases for sure.
Thus Saucony and Harley Davidson are in similar situations. They both have a product that many faithful love and cannot figure how to get out of this catch 22. Neither can make any radical changes for fear of angering the faithful.
Both are owned by the same parent company (at least HD boots)… which is also ironic.
How is it compared to the Speed 2? I ask because Speed 2 worked great for my mechanics, even for races. Thank you
I don’t run in the Speed 2, only the Speed 1 (same shoe basically) and the Speed 4 feels like a much better shoe to me. Though my memories of the Speed 1 are vague…
@DP-no1ny Interesting. My memory of the Speed 1 was it felt dead and lifeless underfoot… the Speed 4 does not. It’s fascinating how our perceptions of shoes are all so individual.
All this talk about Zoomx have me thinking I'd like a different timeline when Nike could glue their shoes together properly and not have them fall apart after 150 miles 😭
Nike did resolve that design flaw in the VF1/2 and the I1-3… you don’t see it in the newer shoes now.
Tried 2 and 3, both felt harsh and had quality issues. I'm using Adios Pro 3 as a daily for reference.
The AP3 is a great shoe… but not for daily running. Look at the Supernova Rise or the Adizero SL for daily running to pair with the AP3…
@@SagasuRunning Those look interesting but I hate heavy shoes. I run 100k in AP3 a week, works for me.
how to you run in nylon plates without hurting yourself?
What do you mean? They are the same as a CF plate, just with more flex.