This review puts most running shoe comparison videos on youtube to shame, again good job. The matrix seems like a really good way to find out gaps in one’s shoe rotation. I’m gonna do my own version of it just for fun, thanks for the tip.
I'm glad this style of matrix helps... I'm going to begin including them, where appropriate, in most "vs" videos and maybe even some reviews. I mean, in some ways I already have been.
I found the use chart with the speed 4, Boston 12, and TS10 very useful. This really helps gel and clarify all the discussion. It’s pretty clear that the TS10 is what I want.
Related to this there is a big difference between the Boston 10/11 (I never got the Boston 12) and the Adios Pro 3 in that there is actually very little Lightstrike Pro in the Boston. It’s really a sidewall for most of the shoe and maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the forefoot. The regular Lightstrike is dull and packs-out which limits the life of the shoe in my experience to no more than 500km (or maybe 300k the Boston 11 upper years earlier). Looking back at my notes it is right at 450k that a problem with discomfort from midsole breakdown happened in the 10 and 11. I had 6 pairs across the 10 and 11. There is still a ton of rubber but the shoe itself is compromised for running. Actually there is far too much rubber. It’s just making the Boston heavy. I’m an outlier probably in height and weight for shoe designers, though. Maybe the midsole has better properties in size 9 and a flyweight runner. A pure Lightsrike Pro midsole however does not break down in any meaningful way over those distances. I have a pair of Adios Pro 3 with 600k on them and the only issue is the rubber is starting to get thin on the forefoot. (Both the Boston and the Adios Pro 3 are too heavy in my clown shoe size though.) It’s quite astonishing how resilient the material is. I’m not sure it is as good as Pebax/ZoomX in the first 200k but the functional life is much longer. I would also not that the Adios 8 also has at least 2x and probably 3x the thickness of Continental runner in the forefoot that it needs.
@@brianreiter5572 LSP is amazing like that. The training and racing lifespan of it is outstanding. I agree, when it is pure LSP, it seems to do better. The A8 forefoot outsole is thick, yes...but I absolutely love it.
@brianreiter5572 Fully. I also think it mutes the TPU shank fingers in the forefoot. It there wasn’t as much rubber there those fingers would be even more present.
Probably the best video I've seen yet, as you've really explained where these shoes fit into training. I now understand why the Speed is the right choice for me, and another shoe like the Novablast 4 or Mach 6 can compliment it for rotation; I don't like highly cushioned heavy shoes. Whilst I'm training for a 10K, this is just to get some speed into my legs, before building my endurance for a couple of 50K Ultras when I'm in the UK this summer, and where most of my training is off-road using trail shoes. So most of my training is Z1/2, with 1-2 weekly sessions including some Tempo/Threshold/Intervals. It's not worth having a shoe for max effort as it won't get much use, and my old Speed 2's are good for Threshold. I think I'll sell the Superblasts.
Ya… the Endorphin Speed suits all of that well, especially if you like lighter/flexible shoes. Compliment that with a non-plated daily trainer and you are good to go for your road work.
Great analysis! I just picked up a pair of Boston 12 for $80 usd and took them for a 5.5 mile workout with easy to 10k paces and I really enjoyed it. I am a 185 lb, rear/midfoot striker and found it great. It certainly runs way lighter than it is. I have experience with the speed 2 and speed 3, I would compare the Boston more to the speed 2. When the Boston breaks in I think I may not touch my speed 3 for much anymore.
The B12 softens up a little bit. The pair in the video has over 200k on them… but they are still considerably stiffer and more structured then the Soeed 4. You got a great deal on them…. Enjoy them!
The matrix is helpful because we may not all have the same needs for this type of shoe. I have about 140 miles on the Superblast and I just don't find it great for picking up the pace. I feel much faster in something like the Hyperion Max or Mach 6, or even the Deviate Nitro 2, which is actually heavier. I'm still searching for my Goldilocks shoe for the type of runs that I do. I tried on the Boston 12 but I didn't love the fit; also individual preference, I guess.
You know… the SB and the Mach 6 are good partners. They complement one another in all sorts of ways. I only find the SB good for picking up the pace to marathon pace within longer runs. Otherwise it is too bulky for me. But in that use case of a long run shoe with MP pace…. The SB is near perfection.
@@SagasuRunning I agree. I'm just a little disappointed because people talked about how bouncy the Superblast is and I'm not feeling it. Good thing I didn't pay full price. 🙂
Nice review! But I have a question because I`m going to buy my first two pairs of shoes to race 10k and 5k races and I already know which my daily trainer is going to be (Asics Novablast 4) but I don´t know if it`s better to buy the Takumi Sen 10s for race days or the Boston 12s/Speed 4s because they are softer and I`m not too fast yet (5:40/km in 10k). Thanks!
I went TTS with the B12 and have no complaints. Great fit for a trainer. I did try a half size down in the Speed 4, but it was too short, so always went TTS.
I have yet to try the takumi sen 10, but the Boston 12 is quickly becoming my favorite shoe to run in. For people who read reviews and see issues with it, 1. Learn if you are tying your laces correctly (there is a ted talk about it haha). I have never had any issues with my laces and I don't even double knot them... 2. Experiment with how loose and tight you make the laces. I had to loosen them slightly but after that the upper fit perfectly 3. use runners loop if you have heal movement issues.
Agree on using all of the lace holes as well as how tight the shoe should be. It definitely helps with the heel issues, but doesn’t solve all of them for all people.
I love the Boston 12 once broken in around 50K it molds to my foot and I can just set a pace and stick to it with no effort. It does not push you forward but also does not hold you back. I swapped the laces out and besides that no issues it is a great trainer especially for hill work. Did my first run in the Saucony Pro 4 yesterday just an easy 5 mile run with a few sprints mixed in and what is not to like, well other than the laces being too long and stretchy. I like the 4 much more than the 3, more cushioning, support and stability, not the lightest or fastest but for us older middle of the pack runners seems like this may be the marathon shoe for me, will see after a long run. Looking forward to your review of them on Sunday!
I haven’t talked about the laces in the Speed 4 because no matter what I do… the lacing system still doesn’t work great. I agree the stock laces are too stretchy… but I swapped them for no stretchy laces for a few runs and it made no differences. So I went back to the stretchy ones. The upper is the problem… not the laces. But overall the shoe is a pleasure to run in…. I just wish it fit better. The stretchy laces are even worst on the Pro 4… so I’ve been saving to talk about them there. They are a bigger issue on the Pro 4 because of the bootie upper. I did swap them for non-stretchy laces, and it does help, but I shouldn’t have to do that. Otherwise I like the upper on the Pro 4. It is far from ideal… but much better than the Speed 4 upper.
Personally as a 94kg runner, I find the superblasts great at moderate to easy pace, filling a similar role to the endorphin speed 4. Running at tempo/threshold is just too tiring with that soft foam and lack of aggresive rocker. Interestingly the takumi sen 9 has become tempo shoe (somehow it can go for ~15km including w/u c/d without hurting me)
Both the SB and TS9 (thanks to LSP) are very stout shoes that can withstand all the force you put through them. The Speed 4 would just fold under you. I do find the rocker on the SB to be a little aggressive at times, though definitely not as much as the B12 can be.
I Completely agree with everything you said. I just completed a 4x4 for VO2Max with the boston 12, and at paces below 3:30/km takumi sen is much better. Between 3:40/km to 4:30/km B12 is the best shoe ever.
Basically do you like it soft or firm. If you like soft cusion you won't like the boston 12. It's a firm responsive feeling shoe is how I'd describe it. I tend to use mine for faster shorter runs like 5k and intervals. Can even handle track sessions. It's really in the middle of the sen 9 and pro 3.
It’s more than that. The geometries of the two shoes run very differently too. Yes, if you like a soft or firm shoe is a big decider… but run feel from geometry is much bigger.
It would overlap with the max effort or the TS10 but the yellow would go all the way down into easy… it pretty much does it all, though not everyone would do a lot of distance in it.
@@SagasuRunning pretty sure, people now is not used to use low stack shoes for nothing up to 10K. 10 years ago we did marathons in old Adios and Bostons 🫠
This trainer matrix visual is really good to understand what purpose the shoe serves. As expected, it becomes clear that the Speed, due to its flexibility, serves more the daily running spectrum instead of real speed work. And for daily running, it might be better to choose for a non plated shoe to improve foot strength. Pairing Mach6+TS10 seems good to go🙂
I agree. I’m enjoying the Supernova Rise + TS10 combo for the same reasons. The ES4 becomes the outlier shoe that is easy to throw on and then I can rotate a handful of carbon plated super shoes… best of all worlds. I’ll do a proper rotation video (or two) in May or June.
8/18/24 - walked in to my local Adidas store, knowing that it's $159 thinking about just looking and trying it on. then boom it's on sale for $75! went home with the black colorway
Hi Chris, I’ve complemented the Speed2/3 (Tempo) with the, for me, faster Nike Tempo Next% (threshold) Had multiple pairs, I love that shoe, the rocker, the bounce and firmness. Not sure what Nike’s plans are for the model, would the Takumi10 be a good alternative for the TempoNext%? Thank you, love your content and delivery 🙏
I believe Nike explored a Tempo 2 but shelved it in the prototype phase. However, Nike seems full of surprises this year. The TS10 is not a proxy for the old Tempo, at all. The Boston 12 is closer in feel (but much better) and the upcoming Nike Zoom Fly 6 maybe be the shoe you want this fall. Thank you for the kind words on the content. 🤙🏻
Great video. I actually like the upper of the speed 4 very much. My main issue is my widish and high volume foot. I've actually had to exchange the insole with a thinner insole, that has noticeably reduced the softness. And it is a softer shoe for sure, totally agree. But with the new insole super comfortable. Now I really want to get the Boston 12, even it will ruin my Saucony only rotation :D
Just got the speed 4 as my first plated shoe ever. Tight toe box. Suggestions to open it up? Or similar shoe with a wider toe box? Shoe runs super comfy otherwise. Hearing changing laces helps? What type of laces though? New runner here btw lol started in spring and have got my 5k down to 23.40 and hm to 2hrs
Really, the ES4 is a right toe box? It’s the sloppiest part of the upper fit for me. Interesting. If you find it tight you may want to look at wide shoes. The shoe will loosen up as you run in it. I found the toebox fit to get sloppier the more I ran in it. As for the laces. Swap them out with non stretchy athletic laces (look on amazon). It’s not so important with the ES4…. It’s more the EP4 is the issue with stretchy laces. Welcome to running. 🤙🏻
@@SagasuRunning seems to be just me I guess. I appreciate the feedback. Had my right big toe go numb on my first run in them. I'll try relacing And a few more runs. Looking forward to the SB2 release next month. I use nimbus 25 for long runs and they're good but a bit soft for that it seems. Great for short slow runs
The SB2 runs much more narrower in the toebox, BTW… keep that in mind. Your big toe going numb may not be due to tightness. It could be a number of things. The plate, while very flexible. The ES4, will change your run mechanics. It could be enough that your feet aren’t quite ready for it. It could also be your foot strike and how you are landing…. Any number of things actually.
Thx for the great details and comparison. Just a quick recommendation, could you name the shoe when you call it out instead of saying "this shoe". Many of us listen to just the audio, so when you say, "this shoe" no idea what you are talking about,. And especially, in this vid, the shoes looks so similar, it's difficult to know what "this shoe" is when you mention it. Thx again!
That matrix is gonna come in very handy to gauge my own paces and see which shoe does the job best. Hope to see this become a regular thing in your comparisons. I don’t think I’ll ever get my hands on the TS10, but that’s where my AP3 comes in.👍
I definitely will be including this type of matrix, where appropriate, in my “vs” videos and reviews moving forward. It won’t always be this range… but something like it.
Cool comparison. Ever since i started with the boston 12, its kinda hard to find a shoe as versatile (and forgiving) as them. My only complaint are the laces... Hoping adidas will do better in the B13
Oddly enough, I don't have massive heel lift issues in the Takumi Sen8. I don't know if it's due to the flexible heel cup, or that the heel cup is deeper and not straight up and down like the Saucony shoes. But as long as I use the last eyelet it seems to work, although I then get nasty lace bite on the top of the foot. But I could easily race in the Takumi Sen8 up to half marathon. Curious if the TS 10 rod makeup would make the midfoot/forefoot less flexible than the TS8. Since I think a stiffer rod setup would probably contribute to heel lift. :/
Always use those last eyelets, always! The TS 8/9 and now 10 have always had a little deeper pocket in the heel cup and the forefoot only rods I do think contributed to the heel hold for some. The TS10 is noticeable in how much stuff it feels across the entire foot. The heel cup is also a little deeper than the 8/9 and the upper material is much better. It’s worth a try if you can eventually try these on somewhere.
My Boston 12 arrived last week and I managed to put on 17km in that. Not sure if it just me but I dont feel yet the pop in Boston 12? Does it need break in period? My Speed4 feels awesome right off and so did AP3 (tho AP3 gets better over time ~50km plus)
The shoe softens up after 30-50kms but it never has the pop of the AP3 (though it will have the rolling forward of the AP3) and the ES4 just felt right out of the box due to its flexibility and softness. The B12 likes to go faster than the ES4 though…
@@SagasuRunning Yes! I can confirm that, the long run I did in Boston12 really motivates me to go faster, and I ended up doing progressive long run in two blocks.. The relax/easy miles on them feels harder. I look forward to putting more miles on them. About the sizing, you are spot on, I did follow your advice to go half size down (UK6.5) and still have the same room about my AP3 (UK7). Edit: (Sizing) I finally tried my TTS and I felt much better than going half size down, the Boston 12 is a little bit narrow in the midfoot compare to AP3 hence the extra room in toebox is a welcoming one. So again, you are spot on, better to stick with TTS if you're gonna use it for the long run or training.
Great job on your review! It was very informative, especially the diagram. It seems like you genuinely wanted to help people choose the right shoe. I would appreciate your advice.: I am a casual runner who runs only with the Saucony Triumph 20. My daily training pace is between 52-54 minutes for a 10k, and my last 10k race result was 50 minutes. My new goal is to run a 10k in 45 minutes and take a step towards running a half marathon by running 15k. So, I plan to add speed workouts to my routine. Which of the two shoes would you recommend for my needs? Or, do you suggest something else? Also, what would be a good shoe rotation? Would it be reasonable to rotate between both of them? Thanks, a lot
Honestly, you would do well with either of these. Given you’ve never run in a plated shoe before (right?) the Boston 12 might feel a little harsh at first, so I’d probably recommend the Speed 4. Also given you already are familiar and enjoy the Saucony Fit. The Speed 4 is very versatile, maybe not as fast as the B12, but more than enough for you to hit your goals and get used to running in a plated shoe. From there you could begin to look at something like the Pro 4.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks. Just to make sure I understood correctly, rotation between 2 pairs of shoes: (The Triumph 20 has done their miles) 1. For easy runs and daily training I will use the Speed 4 2. For speed training and races I will use the Pro 4
Yes, this is a great rotation… though I would consider adding in a 3rd shoe. Either the Ride 17 or Triumph 22 for easy running (which should be the majority of your running). You want a non plated shoe for that type of running ideally. So it looks like this 1). Easy/recovery - Triumph 22/Ride 17 2). Easy/tempo/fast - Speed 4 3). Fast/race - Pro 4 There is so overlap there, but that’s a good thing in a rotation.
Dear ,where will u put Adios8 on this matrix? will it be great idea to build rotation of adios 8 and endorphin speed4?and thanks for all your work it really helped me in understanding shoes importance
The A8 is a race flat that you can do easy running in, but I wouldn't recommend it to most unless you are looking for a very low stack option. As for the matrix, I don't know, I've never considered it. I'll have to see when the Adios 9 is here. The A8 and ES4 fill the same role though for me. They sit between a daily trainer and plated race shoe as a tempo trainer (workout shoe), especially if you focus on short distances. if your ace longer distance I'd pick the ES4 for the tempo trainer role.
@@SagasuRunning Noted..Actually i purchased A8 after watching your video and i m enjoying them thanks for that... i also like them because they do not change my running biomechanics much ... i m using them for intervals on track and hill..i m mostly 5k(PR 19:30)-21k (PR 1:42 ) runner weighing 62 kg. I was using kinvara 14 since last year.. now i m planning to build rotation with A8 so that other shoe can handle my long distances runs for both during both training and race (10-21K).. options that i m considering are ES4, novablast4,tempus ,boston 12 or anything else that u can suggest (i m avoiding carbon plate, wanted to use them in later stages of my life when i have improved other aspects of my body)...so would be great if you can help me select a rotation with A8 and Kinvara 14( approx30% life remaining)....thanks dear
Honestly, if you are avoiding plated shoes…. Take a look at the new Adidas Evo SL when it’s out. That is the shoe you want for longer distances. Think of it as a plateless B12 and will be great for 10-21k. The Kinvara and A8 is a good, low stack, flexible rotation. The Evo SL will round it out.
Boston 12: had to go a half size down from endorphine speed 2 size, swapped out laces and insole already. It’s a fun shoe to go fast in, but have to tighten down the laces to the point of feeling like my circulation is getting cut off to secure my foot in the shoe. The upper has broken in a little over time.. still frustrating. The ride and energy return is great.
I have already run over 500km on my es3 and now I need to buy new running shoes. I am very fascinated by the feel of the ES3, but it is no longer available in Germany. I have been struggling between B12 and ES4. As a person who is close to 50 years old and has 15 years of running experience, I like shoes that are both comfortable and can increase speed. The previous B11 gave me a very bad feeling. Before choosing es3, my speed training shoes were nike tempo, but this pair of shoes has also been discontinued in Germany. After see your review, I feel that B12 is not suitable for easy running, but es4 is softer than ES3 and more expensive than B12, it is difficult to choose...
ES4 is the one you want here. The B12 is a great shoe, much MUCh different than the B10/11 (which were trash), but it is better for tempo/speed and not so much for easy running (Adidas have multiple great options for that in 2024). However, the ES4 is a firmer ride. Not exactly like the ES3. I didn't run in the ES3, but I have tried it on and I would not have bought it as I found it way too soft. Therefore, you may want to look at some of the New Balance options out there right now. They have that soft feeling I didn't like from the ES3...so you may like them. Otherwise the ES4 will treat you well, just don't expect the same ride as the ES3.
The Boston 12 is a great shoe. I love it for everything. It really comes into its own at tempo - threshold paces. I recently picked up the Px2 Strung as well, and it feels like a one-trick pony. It seems to work best at Tempo runs.
Thank you for this great review. The chart is very helpful. I would appreciate your help with this question; I am a casual runner; I have completed recently my 2nd half marathon in 1 hour and 55 minutes. So I am not a fast runner. I was using a Pegasus 34 so pretty old shoes lol. I am planning to try to do a full marathon next year and investing in new pairs of shoes. I picked the ASICS Novablast 4 as my daily trainer and now looking to get a faster/fun shoe for training and race day. Which one of the two would you suggest would work best?
Saucony Endorphin Pro 4… it’s going to pair nicely with the NB4 and help you learn how to run in a carbon plated shoe without the extremes of the top super shoes… but you’ll still get a very fast and capable shoe.
A brief update: I ran with the NB4 twice till now a fast 5k and a slow recovery 8k. The shoes are very comfortable and fun. After the runs, I noticed foot pain on the midsole/ball of my foot. Post the 2nd run it was less. I am wondering if other people had similar experiences. I will continue to try to break them in and see. Maybe it’s due to the drop or the trampoline effect. If I had to retire them, which shoes would you suggest? I also went and tried the endorphin pro 4 speed 4, the pro 4 was narrow for my feet by the speed was good.
Nice comparison, i don't know it's just me or other people who feel the same that everyone's speed is not the same, i really like to hear mile/km/ pace instead easy run, marathon pace etc. For instance I've been running for almost 20 yrs, my easy run used to be 12mile/ pace and now 8mile/ pace, so when you tuber saying that i think it doesn't apply to everyone.
This is exactly why I talk about paces around time targets based off of a race pace. What my paces are are useful for you (other than a frame of reference)… but how I determine said paces is.
To serve my curiosity, I have ordered Boston12 to rotate with my Speed4 for now. I use AP3 for my top end speed workout, now that Im ordering a Boston, im also going to see how it handle speed workout. The only thing I didn't have yet is Takumi Sen10. Since my AP3 does the speed workout really well and I do feel fresh after using it. My question would be, how Takumi Sen10 feels afterwards once you max out your speed in those? Does it feel harsh afterwards? Im talking if my top end speed now around 3.00min/km, probably 800m repeats. What is your tot?
The AP3 is a race shoe… it is MUCH faster than the Boston 12 (in fact I’m also spending some time in the AP3 again instead of the B12). If you can do 800s in the AP3 than stick with it. It has way too much foam and rocker for my tastes. The TS10 is well cushioned… but if you are not used to lower stack shoes it could take some getting used too. Especially compared to the AP3. To my legs it feels great… no problems.
@@SagasuRunning yeah!! Thanks, the reason i picked up Boston12 is because the they just released the Red colorway like you have in the video plus with the discount and I thought it is a great deal, especially the shoe that is so popular and versatile to add to my rotation. I will train in this interchangeably with Speed 4 and AP3 , depending on my workout and speed. When the takumi sen10 restock and they offer a discount, ill sure give it a try. Thanks!
A slight chance… but unlikely. We would have seen leaks by now. The B12 dropped in June last year and I know Adidas is trying to move to 2 year release cycles… so maybe we don’t get one at all this year. There are some other exciting Adizero shoes coming… we shall see. 🤷🏼♂️
I want to start jogging. Back in the day when I boxed I used to do 10km two times a week but stopped due to injury. Now I want to start jogging again and working on my cardio. Which shoe would you recommend? It should last and be very comfy since my knees and lower back are a lil weak atm.
Neither of these shoes, thats for sure. Take a look at the Brooks Ghost Max, Asics Novablast 4 and the Saucony Triumph 22. All three of those shoe should meet what youa re looking for any help you get back into adding in some jogging weekly.
I found the TS8 really tight on my foot. So much so that after 3k I had to stop and practically have the laces undone. It still was too tight. Would you know if the TS10 is any wider? Just a tiny bit would work 😝
The TS10 has different sizing, it is a little wider. Go up half a size (I discussed this in my TS10 initial impressions in depth). It makes a HUGE difference. Here: ua-cam.com/video/OtL3f3Ukhbs/v-deo.html
I mean.. that is essentially either of these shoes depending on if you like a firm or soft shoe… if anything the ES4 is closer to that than anything. It’s not ZoomX but it does have old Turbo vibes at times.
What about the Magicspeed 3, how would you put that one in your four running type category graph? And how would you compare it to the Boston and Takumi Sen?
The MS3 is a classic tempo shoe. It would be nearly completely in the "Threshold" column with a bit into the "Max Effort" column, but not much more than that. It's a shoe for faster workouts only. The B12 is way more versatile than the MS3 and the TS10 is much much faster and also now much more versatile. Both the B12 and TS10 have a much better foam and are by far much better and more useful shoes (and I enjoyed the MS3 last year).
Both shoes are great options for a lot of people. But both shoes have an "achilles heel". They both are weak regarding heel lift for a certain subset of runners. Which is so sad, both shoes could easily be fixed to work for an even larger population with simple heel collar modifications, while at the sametime "hopefully" not causing achilles rubbing issues for the other subset of people who often have issues with certain shoes. Until both Saucony and Adidas address this, I will just train in Asics and race in Nike (companies that nail heel lockdown in those two shoe type areas). Great comparison, as usual.
I agree… the heel lift possibilities for many runners in either of these is frustrating. If I’m feeling it, even a tiny bit, I know it’s a big issue for someone out there.
@@SagasuRunning It's too bad, I retired my ES V3 at 760km, mostly with easy running, since I couldn't trust the shoe. And the Boston 12 I have barely over 100km since it's actually worse, so any amount of pace/elevation changes is a ticking time bomb. I might just donate them at my local marathon with about 12 other pairs of shoes I have retired! LOL
Interesting. I get the same issue but in reverse. I ran in the ES4 yesterday and was thinking how hot my feet felt. While the NB4 and SB2 don’t give me the same issue. Funny how our feet differ so.
I'm just never buying a Boston again after the last few iterations, light strike is just too firm to have a carbon plate directly below your heal and no foam above it, it's like landing on concrete, only upside is they're great for running up hills. and as for the light strike pro in those models there's non of it actually under your foot towards the back of the shoe, it's all just on the outside doing nothing at all. bought the speed 4's, first pair of Saucony's I've bought since Type A2's, first run in it doing speed intervals which I usually use my Takumi Sen (which are awesome and worth buying), at 3min/km pace they were just brilliant, wouldn't even consider using a Boston to run that speed.
So… the TS8/9 have a carbon plate under the heel and rods only in the forefoot. The TS10 has heel-to-toe glass fiber energy rods 2.0 , the same as the Boston 12. No carbon fiber plates in the heel in either shoe. Jair the same rods as in the Adios Pro 3, just no carbon fiber. The Boston 10 & 11 are not worth talking about out. They are both awful shoes. The Boston 12 is VERY different. Now that we are clear. But as I said in the video… Adizero shoes are really optimized for forefoot strikers, including the Takumi Sen. as a forefoot striker I approve but they can be harsh for heel strikers. Good thing Saucony’s are general optimized for heel striking. So finding the right shoe for you is vital here.
@@SagasuRunning you think the heal chamfer on the adios range is there for forefoot strikers? not sure if I agree with that, seems to me it's there for people who's stride has their feet landing inline and to stop their feet being forced flat by a flat heal which creates strain on the ankle, much like how the rods also don't force your foot flat but let it roll through from the outside to the inside, it's like the perfect geometry for a heal striker that rolls all the way through to their toes going from outside of the heal in a curving diagonal to their big toe. lighstike pro, probs my favourite foam. The problem for me with the Boston 10 and 11 wasn't that they had a carbon plate in the heal, it was that it was on top of a slab of polystyrene, they would have been great shoes if they were all lightstrike pro.
I’d recommend the B12… you’ll appreciate the former platform and foam with higher resilience… give them energy you can put into it. LSP is the better foam for you here.
For me the one thing that stops the Boston 12 from being a fantastic shoe is the lacing system. It’s such a fiddle to get the shoe on and adjust the laces. Just takes too long. Once it’s on it’s great. Hope they fix that in the next version if there is one.
I couldn’t disagree more with this video(I know I know it’s all personal taste). But for me the Boston 12 is a brick that isn’t on the same planet as the Speed 4. Narrow heel and lack of stability becomes a hindrance on any run over 10K. In fairness all Adizero have same problems for me so it’s obviously my foot shape. But, the Speed smokes this 😂. Great video.
It is so interesting how different our experiences can be in the same shoes. It is what makes running so dynamic. We all have a very different experience. Thank you for the kind words! 🤙🏻 Enjoy those ES4s!
My Boston 12 are undestructible! Shoes 850 kms and counting, and are the best speed shoes in my rotation
They are built like tanks. Like and old 1970s Mercedes still truckin’ along 50+ years later like it just came off the assembly line yesterday.
@@SagasuRunning My foot length is 28 cm, what size should I take? should I go up half a size?
My feet are wide, by the way
I went TTS in both of these shoes. My normal size I always wear in all running shoes. The B12 is the wider of these two shoes.
This review puts most running shoe comparison videos on youtube to shame, again good job.
The matrix seems like a really good way to find out gaps in one’s shoe rotation. I’m gonna do my own version of it just for fun, thanks for the tip.
I'm glad this style of matrix helps... I'm going to begin including them, where appropriate, in most "vs" videos and maybe even some reviews. I mean, in some ways I already have been.
I found the use chart with the speed 4, Boston 12, and TS10 very useful. This really helps gel and clarify all the discussion. It’s pretty clear that the TS10 is what I want.
I'm glad it helped. I'm going to start including an appropriate matrix in my "vs" videos and some of my reviews!
Related to this there is a big difference between the Boston 10/11 (I never got the Boston 12) and the Adios Pro 3 in that there is actually very little Lightstrike Pro in the Boston. It’s really a sidewall for most of the shoe and maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of the forefoot. The regular Lightstrike is dull and packs-out which limits the life of the shoe in my experience to no more than 500km (or maybe 300k the Boston 11 upper years earlier). Looking back at my notes it is right at 450k that a problem with discomfort from midsole breakdown happened in the 10 and 11. I had 6 pairs across the 10 and 11.
There is still a ton of rubber but the shoe itself is compromised for running. Actually there is far too much rubber. It’s just making the Boston heavy. I’m an outlier probably in height and weight for shoe designers, though. Maybe the midsole has better properties in size 9 and a flyweight runner.
A pure Lightsrike Pro midsole however does not break down in any meaningful way over those distances. I have a pair of Adios Pro 3 with 600k on them and the only issue is the rubber is starting to get thin on the forefoot.
(Both the Boston and the Adios Pro 3 are too heavy in my clown shoe size though.)
It’s quite astonishing how resilient the material is. I’m not sure it is as good as Pebax/ZoomX in the first 200k but the functional life is much longer.
I would also not that the Adios 8 also has at least 2x and probably 3x the thickness of Continental runner in the forefoot that it needs.
@@brianreiter5572 LSP is amazing like that. The training and racing lifespan of it is outstanding. I agree, when it is pure LSP, it seems to do better.
The A8 forefoot outsole is thick, yes...but I absolutely love it.
It may be more about structural rigidity than just being a tread surface in the A8.
@brianreiter5572 Fully. I also think it mutes the TPU shank fingers in the forefoot. It there wasn’t as much rubber there those fingers would be even more present.
Yeay, finally the most comprehensive review Boston12 vs Speed4 in UA-cam.
🤙🏻
Probably the best video I've seen yet, as you've really explained where these shoes fit into training. I now understand why the Speed is the right choice for me, and another shoe like the Novablast 4 or Mach 6 can compliment it for rotation; I don't like highly cushioned heavy shoes. Whilst I'm training for a 10K, this is just to get some speed into my legs, before building my endurance for a couple of 50K Ultras when I'm in the UK this summer, and where most of my training is off-road using trail shoes. So most of my training is Z1/2, with 1-2 weekly sessions including some Tempo/Threshold/Intervals. It's not worth having a shoe for max effort as it won't get much use, and my old Speed 2's are good for Threshold. I think I'll sell the Superblasts.
Ya… the Endorphin Speed suits all of that well, especially if you like lighter/flexible shoes. Compliment that with a non-plated daily trainer and you are good to go for your road work.
Great analysis! I just picked up a pair of Boston 12 for $80 usd and took them for a 5.5 mile workout with easy to 10k paces and I really enjoyed it. I am a 185 lb, rear/midfoot striker and found it great. It certainly runs way lighter than it is.
I have experience with the speed 2 and speed 3, I would compare the Boston more to the speed 2. When the Boston breaks in I think I may not touch my speed 3 for much anymore.
The B12 softens up a little bit. The pair in the video has over 200k on them… but they are still considerably stiffer and more structured then the Soeed 4. You got a great deal on them…. Enjoy them!
That performance matrix is super helpful, thanks! 🙂
I’m happy to hear that. Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
The matrix is helpful because we may not all have the same needs for this type of shoe. I have about 140 miles on the Superblast and I just don't find it great for picking up the pace. I feel much faster in something like the Hyperion Max or Mach 6, or even the Deviate Nitro 2, which is actually heavier. I'm still searching for my Goldilocks shoe for the type of runs that I do.
I tried on the Boston 12 but I didn't love the fit; also individual preference, I guess.
You know… the SB and the Mach 6 are good partners. They complement one another in all sorts of ways. I only find the SB good for picking up the pace to marathon pace within longer runs. Otherwise it is too bulky for me.
But in that use case of a long run shoe with MP pace…. The SB is near perfection.
@@SagasuRunning I agree. I'm just a little disappointed because people talked about how bouncy the Superblast is and I'm not feeling it. Good thing I didn't pay full price. 🙂
I never found the SB bouncy. The NB4 is bouncy. The SB is responsive…
Excellent comparison,thx for sharing,was waiting for this one
I hope it was useful. Thank you for watching. 🤙🏻
Nice review! But I have a question because I`m going to buy my first two pairs of shoes to race 10k and 5k races and I already know which my daily trainer is going to be (Asics Novablast 4) but I don´t know if it`s better to buy the Takumi Sen 10s for race days or the Boston 12s/Speed 4s because they are softer and I`m not too fast yet (5:40/km in 10k). Thanks!
The Endorphin Speed 4 may be the better choice for those speeds, especially to partner with something like the NB4.
Performance trainer matrix is an excellent idea and everyone should use it while reviewing shoes.
Maybe I should make some Canva templates for everyone else to use… 😎
@@SagasuRunning Not a bad idea at all :)
I like the boston but I might order another pair a half size down.
I went TTS with the B12 and have no complaints. Great fit for a trainer. I did try a half size down in the Speed 4, but it was too short, so always went TTS.
I have yet to try the takumi sen 10, but the Boston 12 is quickly becoming my favorite shoe to run in. For people who read reviews and see issues with it,
1. Learn if you are tying your laces correctly (there is a ted talk about it haha). I have never had any issues with my laces and I don't even double knot them...
2. Experiment with how loose and tight you make the laces. I had to loosen them slightly but after that the upper fit perfectly
3. use runners loop if you have heal movement issues.
Agree on using all of the lace holes as well as how tight the shoe should be. It definitely helps with the heel issues, but doesn’t solve all of them for all people.
I love the Boston 12 once broken in around 50K it molds to my foot and I can just set a pace and stick to it with no effort. It does not push you forward but also does not hold you back. I swapped the laces out and besides that no issues it is a great trainer especially for hill work.
Did my first run in the Saucony Pro 4 yesterday just an easy 5 mile run with a few sprints mixed in and what is not to like, well other than the laces being too long and stretchy. I like the 4 much more than the 3, more cushioning, support and stability, not the lightest or fastest but for us older middle of the pack runners seems like this may be the marathon shoe for me, will see after a long run.
Looking forward to your review of them on Sunday!
I haven’t talked about the laces in the Speed 4 because no matter what I do… the lacing system still doesn’t work great. I agree the stock laces are too stretchy… but I swapped them for no stretchy laces for a few runs and it made no differences. So I went back to the stretchy ones. The upper is the problem… not the laces. But overall the shoe is a pleasure to run in…. I just wish it fit better.
The stretchy laces are even worst on the Pro 4… so I’ve been saving to talk about them there. They are a bigger issue on the Pro 4 because of the bootie upper. I did swap them for non-stretchy laces, and it does help, but I shouldn’t have to do that. Otherwise I like the upper on the Pro 4. It is far from ideal… but much better than the Speed 4 upper.
Personally as a 94kg runner, I find the superblasts great at moderate to easy pace, filling a similar role to the endorphin speed 4. Running at tempo/threshold is just too tiring with that soft foam and lack of aggresive rocker. Interestingly the takumi sen 9 has become tempo shoe (somehow it can go for ~15km including w/u c/d without hurting me)
Both the SB and TS9 (thanks to LSP) are very stout shoes that can withstand all the force you put through them. The Speed 4 would just fold under you.
I do find the rocker on the SB to be a little aggressive at times, though definitely not as much as the B12 can be.
I Completely agree with everything you said. I just completed a 4x4 for VO2Max with the boston 12, and at paces below 3:30/km takumi sen is much better. Between 3:40/km to 4:30/km B12 is the best shoe ever.
Definitely... the TS10 at sub 5k or rep paces is outstanding. The B12 doesn't like that stuff AT ALL.
Basically do you like it soft or firm. If you like soft cusion you won't like the boston 12. It's a firm responsive feeling shoe is how I'd describe it. I tend to use mine for faster shorter runs like 5k and intervals. Can even handle track sessions. It's really in the middle of the sen 9 and pro 3.
It’s more than that. The geometries of the two shoes run very differently too. Yes, if you like a soft or firm shoe is a big decider… but run feel from geometry is much bigger.
Great video as usual! In this chart where do you put Adios 8? IMO is pretty similar to Takumi Sen 10 with more capacity to do easy runs…
It would overlap with the max effort or the TS10 but the yellow would go all the way down into easy… it pretty much does it all, though not everyone would do a lot of distance in it.
@@SagasuRunning pretty sure, people now is not used to use low stack shoes for nothing up to 10K. 10 years ago we did marathons in old Adios and Bostons 🫠
@hfurbano It will come around again… it always does.
This trainer matrix visual is really good to understand what purpose the shoe serves. As expected, it becomes clear that the Speed, due to its flexibility, serves more the daily running spectrum instead of real speed work. And for daily running, it might be better to choose for a non plated shoe to improve foot strength. Pairing Mach6+TS10 seems good to go🙂
I agree. I’m enjoying the Supernova Rise + TS10 combo for the same reasons. The ES4 becomes the outlier shoe that is easy to throw on and then I can rotate a handful of carbon plated super shoes… best of all worlds.
I’ll do a proper rotation video (or two) in May or June.
This is the best review of these I've seen yet!
Thank you for watching! I hope it was useful. 🤙🏻
8/18/24 - walked in to my local Adidas store, knowing that it's $159 thinking about just looking and trying it on. then boom it's on sale for $75! went home with the black colorway
Great deal on a great shoe! Enjoy them.
Hi Chris, I’ve complemented the Speed2/3 (Tempo) with the, for me, faster Nike Tempo Next% (threshold) Had multiple pairs, I love that shoe, the rocker, the bounce and firmness. Not sure what Nike’s plans are for the model, would the Takumi10 be a good alternative for the TempoNext%? Thank you, love your content and delivery 🙏
I believe Nike explored a Tempo 2 but shelved it in the prototype phase. However, Nike seems full of surprises this year.
The TS10 is not a proxy for the old Tempo, at all. The Boston 12 is closer in feel (but much better) and the upcoming Nike Zoom Fly 6 maybe be the shoe you want this fall.
Thank you for the kind words on the content. 🤙🏻
Great video. I actually like the upper of the speed 4 very much. My main issue is my widish and high volume foot. I've actually had to exchange the insole with a thinner insole, that has noticeably reduced the softness. And it is a softer shoe for sure, totally agree. But with the new insole super comfortable. Now I really want to get the Boston 12, even it will ruin my Saucony only rotation :D
… and I thought I had a high volume foot! The ES4 fits me like a boat and is a very sloppy overall fit for me. The midsole is what saves the shoe IMO.
Just got the speed 4 as my first plated shoe ever. Tight toe box. Suggestions to open it up? Or similar shoe with a wider toe box? Shoe runs super comfy otherwise. Hearing changing laces helps? What type of laces though? New runner here btw lol started in spring and have got my 5k down to 23.40 and hm to 2hrs
Really, the ES4 is a right toe box? It’s the sloppiest part of the upper fit for me. Interesting. If you find it tight you may want to look at wide shoes.
The shoe will loosen up as you run in it. I found the toebox fit to get sloppier the more I ran in it.
As for the laces. Swap them out with non stretchy athletic laces (look on amazon). It’s not so important with the ES4…. It’s more the EP4 is the issue with stretchy laces.
Welcome to running. 🤙🏻
@@SagasuRunning seems to be just me I guess. I appreciate the feedback. Had my right big toe go numb on my first run in them. I'll try relacing And a few more runs.
Looking forward to the SB2 release next month. I use nimbus 25 for long runs and they're good but a bit soft for that it seems. Great for short slow runs
The SB2 runs much more narrower in the toebox, BTW… keep that in mind.
Your big toe going numb may not be due to tightness. It could be a number of things. The plate, while very flexible. The ES4, will change your run mechanics. It could be enough that your feet aren’t quite ready for it. It could also be your foot strike and how you are landing…. Any number of things actually.
@@SagasuRunning oh wow ok that's good to know. Well more to learn I guess. Thank you so much for replying. I really appreciate that.
Happy to help. A big part of running, is specially early on, is learning what works and doesn’t work for you.
Thx for the great details and comparison. Just a quick recommendation, could you name the shoe when you call it out instead of saying "this shoe". Many of us listen to just the audio, so when you say, "this shoe" no idea what you are talking about,. And especially, in this vid, the shoes looks so similar, it's difficult to know what "this shoe" is when you mention it. Thx again!
Noted. Thank you for the suggestion.
That matrix is gonna come in very handy to gauge my own paces and see which shoe does the job best. Hope to see this become a regular thing in your comparisons. I don’t think I’ll ever get my hands on the TS10, but that’s where my AP3 comes in.👍
I definitely will be including this type of matrix, where appropriate, in my “vs” videos and reviews moving forward. It won’t always be this range… but something like it.
Cool comparison. Ever since i started with the boston 12, its kinda hard to find a shoe as versatile (and forgiving) as them. My only complaint are the laces... Hoping adidas will do better in the B13
Adidas Adizero laces are notoriously bad and don't seem to be changing anytime soon. We will see what comes on the Adios Pro 4...
Oddly enough, I don't have massive heel lift issues in the Takumi Sen8. I don't know if it's due to the flexible heel cup, or that the heel cup is deeper and not straight up and down like the Saucony shoes. But as long as I use the last eyelet it seems to work, although I then get nasty lace bite on the top of the foot. But I could easily race in the Takumi Sen8 up to half marathon. Curious if the TS 10 rod makeup would make the midfoot/forefoot less flexible than the TS8. Since I think a stiffer rod setup would probably contribute to heel lift. :/
Always use those last eyelets, always! The TS 8/9 and now 10 have always had a little deeper pocket in the heel cup and the forefoot only rods I do think contributed to the heel hold for some.
The TS10 is noticeable in how much stuff it feels across the entire foot. The heel cup is also a little deeper than the 8/9 and the upper material is much better. It’s worth a try if you can eventually try these on somewhere.
I have difficulty choosing between the speed 3 and Boston 12. Boston 12 is more responsive, but speed 3 is smoother.
Same story for the B12 and ES4, maybe even more so. It is a tough call often.
My Boston 12 arrived last week and I managed to put on 17km in that.
Not sure if it just me but I dont feel yet the pop in Boston 12? Does it need break in period?
My Speed4 feels awesome right off and so did AP3 (tho AP3 gets better over time ~50km plus)
The shoe softens up after 30-50kms but it never has the pop of the AP3 (though it will have the rolling forward of the AP3) and the ES4 just felt right out of the box due to its flexibility and softness. The B12 likes to go faster than the ES4 though…
@@SagasuRunning Yes! I can confirm that, the long run I did in Boston12 really motivates me to go faster, and I ended up doing progressive long run in two blocks..
The relax/easy miles on them feels harder.
I look forward to putting more miles on them.
About the sizing, you are spot on, I did follow your advice to go half size down (UK6.5) and still have the same room about my AP3 (UK7).
Edit: (Sizing) I finally tried my TTS and I felt much better than going half size down, the Boston 12 is a little bit narrow in the midfoot compare to AP3 hence the extra room in toebox is a welcoming one.
So again, you are spot on, better to stick with TTS if you're gonna use it for the long run or training.
Also have owned both and this is spot on for me also. Ultimately sold my SES4.
They really are opposites and generally a running will like one over the other...but they aren't exactly competing in the same space either.
Great job on your review! It was very informative, especially the diagram. It seems like you genuinely wanted to help people choose the right shoe.
I would appreciate your advice.:
I am a casual runner who runs only with the Saucony Triumph 20. My daily training pace is between 52-54 minutes for a 10k, and my last 10k race result was 50 minutes. My new goal is to run a 10k in 45 minutes and take a step towards running a half marathon by running 15k. So, I plan to add speed workouts to my routine.
Which of the two shoes would you recommend for my needs? Or, do you suggest something else? Also, what would be a good shoe rotation? Would it be reasonable to rotate between both of them?
Thanks, a lot
Honestly, you would do well with either of these. Given you’ve never run in a plated shoe before (right?) the Boston 12 might feel a little harsh at first, so I’d probably recommend the Speed 4. Also given you already are familiar and enjoy the Saucony Fit. The Speed 4 is very versatile, maybe not as fast as the B12, but more than enough for you to hit your goals and get used to running in a plated shoe. From there you could begin to look at something like the Pro 4.
@@SagasuRunning Thanks.
Just to make sure I understood correctly, rotation between 2 pairs of shoes: (The Triumph 20 has done their miles)
1. For easy runs and daily training I will use the Speed 4
2. For speed training and races I will use the Pro 4
Yes, this is a great rotation… though I would consider adding in a 3rd shoe. Either the Ride 17 or Triumph 22 for easy running (which should be the majority of your running). You want a non plated shoe for that type of running ideally.
So it looks like this
1). Easy/recovery - Triumph 22/Ride 17
2). Easy/tempo/fast - Speed 4
3). Fast/race - Pro 4
There is so overlap there, but that’s a good thing in a rotation.
Dear ,where will u put Adios8 on this matrix? will it be great idea to build rotation of adios 8 and endorphin speed4?and thanks for all your work it really helped me in understanding shoes importance
The A8 is a race flat that you can do easy running in, but I wouldn't recommend it to most unless you are looking for a very low stack option. As for the matrix, I don't know, I've never considered it. I'll have to see when the Adios 9 is here.
The A8 and ES4 fill the same role though for me. They sit between a daily trainer and plated race shoe as a tempo trainer (workout shoe), especially if you focus on short distances. if your ace longer distance I'd pick the ES4 for the tempo trainer role.
@@SagasuRunning Noted..Actually i purchased A8 after watching your video and i m enjoying them thanks for that... i also like them because they do not change my running biomechanics much ... i m using them for intervals on track and hill..i m mostly 5k(PR 19:30)-21k (PR 1:42 ) runner weighing 62 kg. I was using kinvara 14 since last year.. now i m planning to build rotation with A8 so that other shoe can handle my long distances runs for both during both training and race (10-21K).. options that i m considering are ES4, novablast4,tempus ,boston 12 or anything else that u can suggest (i m avoiding carbon plate, wanted to use them in later stages of my life when i have improved other aspects of my body)...so would be great if you can help me select a rotation with A8 and Kinvara 14( approx30% life remaining)....thanks dear
Honestly, if you are avoiding plated shoes…. Take a look at the new Adidas Evo SL when it’s out. That is the shoe you want for longer distances. Think of it as a plateless B12 and will be great for 10-21k.
The Kinvara and A8 is a good, low stack, flexible rotation. The Evo SL will round it out.
@@SagasuRunning Noted.Thanks brother
Boston 12: had to go a half size down from endorphine speed 2 size, swapped out laces and insole already. It’s a fun shoe to go fast in, but have to tighten down the laces to the point of feeling like my circulation is getting cut off to secure my foot in the shoe. The upper has broken in a little over time.. still frustrating. The ride and energy return is great.
Interesting. I have a similar experience with the Endorphin Speed 4. However, the B12 is TTS for me and fit great out of the box.
I have already run over 500km on my es3 and now I need to buy new running shoes. I am very fascinated by the feel of the ES3, but it is no longer available in Germany. I have been struggling between B12 and ES4. As a person who is close to 50 years old and has 15 years of running experience, I like shoes that are both comfortable and can increase speed. The previous B11 gave me a very bad feeling. Before choosing es3, my speed training shoes were nike tempo, but this pair of shoes has also been discontinued in Germany. After see your review, I feel that B12 is not suitable for easy running, but es4 is softer than ES3 and more expensive than B12, it is difficult to choose...
ES4 is the one you want here.
The B12 is a great shoe, much MUCh different than the B10/11 (which were trash), but it is better for tempo/speed and not so much for easy running (Adidas have multiple great options for that in 2024).
However, the ES4 is a firmer ride. Not exactly like the ES3. I didn't run in the ES3, but I have tried it on and I would not have bought it as I found it way too soft. Therefore, you may want to look at some of the New Balance options out there right now. They have that soft feeling I didn't like from the ES3...so you may like them.
Otherwise the ES4 will treat you well, just don't expect the same ride as the ES3.
The Boston 12 is a great shoe. I love it for everything. It really comes into its own at tempo - threshold paces. I recently picked up the Px2 Strung as well, and it feels like a one-trick pony. It seems to work best at Tempo runs.
The B12 is definitely a very competent allrounder. Pair it with a non plated trainer and you have nearly everything covered, and covered very well.
Thank you for this great review. The chart is very helpful.
I would appreciate your help with this question; I am a casual runner; I have completed recently my 2nd half marathon in 1 hour and 55 minutes. So I am not a fast runner. I was using a Pegasus 34 so pretty old shoes lol. I am planning to try to do a full marathon next year and investing in new pairs of shoes.
I picked the ASICS Novablast 4 as my daily trainer and now looking to get a faster/fun shoe for training and race day.
Which one of the two would you suggest would work best?
Saucony Endorphin Pro 4… it’s going to pair nicely with the NB4 and help you learn how to run in a carbon plated shoe without the extremes of the top super shoes… but you’ll still get a very fast and capable shoe.
@@SagasuRunningThanks for you help! Appreciate it
A brief update: I ran with the NB4 twice till now a fast 5k and a slow recovery 8k. The shoes are very comfortable and fun. After the runs, I noticed foot pain on the midsole/ball of my foot. Post the 2nd run it was less. I am wondering if other people had similar experiences. I will continue to try to break them in and see. Maybe it’s due to the drop or the trampoline effect.
If I had to retire them, which shoes would you suggest?
I also went and tried the endorphin pro 4 speed 4, the pro 4 was narrow for my feet by the speed was good.
It could be the trampoline effect. I’d get that on the NB3 sometimes.
@@SagasuRunning Is the trampoline effect evident in the superblast? Maybe I can switch to that shoe for daily training and long distance running.
Nice comparison, i don't know it's just me or other people who feel the same that everyone's speed is not the same, i really like to hear mile/km/ pace instead easy run, marathon pace etc. For instance I've been running for almost 20 yrs, my easy run used to be 12mile/ pace and now 8mile/ pace, so when you tuber saying that i think it doesn't apply to everyone.
This is exactly why I talk about paces around time targets based off of a race pace. What my paces are are useful for you (other than a frame of reference)… but how I determine said paces is.
I see you're growing strong. Great comparison:) Well, your voice is soothing:) Sub and I look forward to the next tests!
Plenty more “vs” videos coming in the next few months. Some really big ones. Thank you for the kind words. 🤙🏻
To serve my curiosity, I have ordered Boston12 to rotate with my Speed4 for now.
I use AP3 for my top end speed workout, now that Im ordering a Boston, im also going to see how it handle speed workout.
The only thing I didn't have yet is Takumi Sen10. Since my AP3 does the speed workout really well and I do feel fresh after using it.
My question would be, how Takumi Sen10 feels afterwards once you max out your speed in those? Does it feel harsh afterwards?
Im talking if my top end speed now around 3.00min/km, probably 800m repeats.
What is your tot?
The AP3 is a race shoe… it is MUCH faster than the Boston 12 (in fact I’m also spending some time in the AP3 again instead of the B12). If you can do 800s in the AP3 than stick with it. It has way too much foam and rocker for my tastes.
The TS10 is well cushioned… but if you are not used to lower stack shoes it could take some getting used too. Especially compared to the AP3.
To my legs it feels great… no problems.
@@SagasuRunning yeah!! Thanks, the reason i picked up Boston12 is because the they just released the Red colorway like you have in the video plus with the discount and I thought it is a great deal, especially the shoe that is so popular and versatile to add to my rotation.
I will train in this interchangeably with Speed 4 and AP3 , depending on my workout and speed.
When the takumi sen10 restock and they offer a discount, ill sure give it a try.
Thanks!
Maybe they relaese the Boston 13 on the date of the Marathon of Boston which is 15 april 2024? Probably more like June 2024 it will come out.
A slight chance… but unlikely. We would have seen leaks by now. The B12 dropped in June last year and I know Adidas is trying to move to 2 year release cycles… so maybe we don’t get one at all this year. There are some other exciting Adizero shoes coming… we shall see. 🤷🏼♂️
I want to start jogging. Back in the day when I boxed I used to do 10km two times a week but stopped due to injury. Now I want to start jogging again and working on my cardio. Which shoe would you recommend? It should last and be very comfy since my knees and lower back are a lil weak atm.
Neither of these shoes, thats for sure. Take a look at the Brooks Ghost Max, Asics Novablast 4 and the Saucony Triumph 22. All three of those shoe should meet what youa re looking for any help you get back into adding in some jogging weekly.
I found the TS8 really tight on my foot. So much so that after 3k I had to stop and practically have the laces undone. It still was too tight. Would you know if the TS10 is any wider? Just a tiny bit would work 😝
The TS10 has different sizing, it is a little wider. Go up half a size (I discussed this in my TS10 initial impressions in depth). It makes a HUGE difference.
Here: ua-cam.com/video/OtL3f3Ukhbs/v-deo.html
Thanks!
genius stuff on the matrix
Thank you. Those matrix graphics have become very popular on the channel.
Best shoe for training in years. Is a new Turbo with roods and more comfort level.
I mean.. that is essentially either of these shoes depending on if you like a firm or soft shoe… if anything the ES4 is closer to that than anything. It’s not ZoomX but it does have old Turbo vibes at times.
What about the Magicspeed 3, how would you put that one in your four running type category graph? And how would you compare it to the Boston and Takumi Sen?
The MS3 is a classic tempo shoe. It would be nearly completely in the "Threshold" column with a bit into the "Max Effort" column, but not much more than that. It's a shoe for faster workouts only.
The B12 is way more versatile than the MS3 and the TS10 is much much faster and also now much more versatile. Both the B12 and TS10 have a much better foam and are by far much better and more useful shoes (and I enjoyed the MS3 last year).
My foot length is 28 cm, what size should I take? should I go up half a size?
I went TTS in both, my normal size I wear in all other running shoes…
Both shoes are great options for a lot of people. But both shoes have an "achilles heel". They both are weak regarding heel lift for a certain subset of runners. Which is so sad, both shoes could easily be fixed to work for an even larger population with simple heel collar modifications, while at the sametime "hopefully" not causing achilles rubbing issues for the other subset of people who often have issues with certain shoes. Until both Saucony and Adidas address this, I will just train in Asics and race in Nike (companies that nail heel lockdown in those two shoe type areas).
Great comparison, as usual.
I agree… the heel lift possibilities for many runners in either of these is frustrating. If I’m feeling it, even a tiny bit, I know it’s a big issue for someone out there.
@@SagasuRunning It's too bad, I retired my ES V3 at 760km, mostly with easy running, since I couldn't trust the shoe. And the Boston 12 I have barely over 100km since it's actually worse, so any amount of pace/elevation changes is a ticking time bomb. I might just donate them at my local marathon with about 12 other pairs of shoes I have retired! LOL
Haha… sounds like that is a better course for the B12 given the issue. Sounds like you won’t be lacking. 😂
Love my speed 4, my novablast 4 always makes my feet feel hot. They are ok but def. take my speed 4. HMMM Boston 12 maybe
Interesting. I get the same issue but in reverse. I ran in the ES4 yesterday and was thinking how hot my feet felt. While the NB4 and SB2 don’t give me the same issue.
Funny how our feet differ so.
looking forward to takumi sen 10 compared to these bad boys
Go to 15:15 - Performance trainer matrix… 🤙🏻
This two are for versatile. Takumi sen not good for daily training also easy running. Used takumi for speed sessions.
I would have agreed on the TS8/9… but the TS10 is a very different shoe. It’s much more capable, especially at the faster end of this conversation.
Gotcha, Takumi Sen 10 my next shoe
I'm just never buying a Boston again after the last few iterations, light strike is just too firm to have a carbon plate directly below your heal and no foam above it, it's like landing on concrete, only upside is they're great for running up hills.
and as for the light strike pro in those models there's non of it actually under your foot towards the back of the shoe, it's all just on the outside doing nothing at all.
bought the speed 4's, first pair of Saucony's I've bought since Type A2's, first run in it doing speed intervals which I usually use my Takumi Sen (which are awesome and worth buying), at 3min/km pace they were just brilliant, wouldn't even consider using a Boston to run that speed.
So… the TS8/9 have a carbon plate under the heel and rods only in the forefoot. The TS10 has heel-to-toe glass fiber energy rods 2.0 , the same as the Boston 12. No carbon fiber plates in the heel in either shoe. Jair the same rods as in the Adios Pro 3, just no carbon fiber.
The Boston 10 & 11 are not worth talking about out. They are both awful shoes. The Boston 12 is VERY different.
Now that we are clear.
But as I said in the video… Adizero shoes are really optimized for forefoot strikers, including the Takumi Sen. as a forefoot striker I approve but they can be harsh for heel strikers. Good thing Saucony’s are general optimized for heel striking. So finding the right shoe for you is vital here.
@@SagasuRunning you think the heal chamfer on the adios range is there for forefoot strikers? not sure if I agree with that, seems to me it's there for people who's stride has their feet landing inline and to stop their feet being forced flat by a flat heal which creates strain on the ankle, much like how the rods also don't force your foot flat but let it roll through from the outside to the inside, it's like the perfect geometry for a heal striker that rolls all the way through to their toes going from outside of the heal in a curving diagonal to their big toe.
lighstike pro, probs my favourite foam.
The problem for me with the Boston 10 and 11 wasn't that they had a carbon plate in the heal, it was that it was on top of a slab of polystyrene, they would have been great shoes if they were all lightstrike pro.
Superblast vs speed 4 pls
I cover the SB at the end of the chapter “performance trainer matrix”… nothing more needs to be said about it. 👍🏻
Endorphin speed 4, for 6min/km? I’m a heavy runner 200+ pounds 🫣
I’d recommend the B12… you’ll appreciate the former platform and foam with higher resilience… give them energy you can put into it. LSP is the better foam for you here.
@@SagasuRunningThank you so much, B12 👟💪🏽
For me the one thing that stops the Boston 12 from being a fantastic shoe is the lacing system. It’s such a fiddle to get the shoe on and adjust the laces. Just takes too long. Once it’s on it’s great. Hope they fix that in the next version if there is one.
I like the eyelet chain...but the laces are rough at best. Sadly, it doesn't seem like the notorious Adizero laces are going away for 2024.
+1000 👍🏽
🤙🏻🤙🏻🤙🏻
On look alone, the Boston’s 12 looks like a pro shoe, a real runners shoe, the speed 4 look 👀 meehhh, like a toy 🧸
The Speed 4 (and Sauconys in general) also feel like a toy on construction and on foot...but they do perform, I will give them that.
I couldn’t disagree more with this video(I know I know it’s all personal taste). But for me the Boston 12 is a brick that isn’t on the same planet as the Speed 4. Narrow heel and lack of stability becomes a hindrance on any run over 10K. In fairness all Adizero have same problems for me so it’s obviously my foot shape. But, the Speed smokes this 😂. Great video.
It is so interesting how different our experiences can be in the same shoes. It is what makes running so dynamic. We all have a very different experience.
Thank you for the kind words! 🤙🏻
Enjoy those ES4s!