Parkrun stats removal update - it gets worse!
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- Опубліковано 30 кві 2024
- The 'Bring Back the Stats' committee recently met with the parkrun organisation to discuss the removal of the age-graded and course statistics at parkrun. In my view parkrun headquarters are completely out of touch with the vast majority of parkrun participants.
Here's the official update:
www.change.org/p/reinstate-st...
And the petition to bring back the stats:
www.change.org/p/reinstate-st... - Спорт
I am in my mid 60s and very slow. I was so nervous about attending my first Parkrun I literally shed tears on my way there. What motivates me to return (apart from the wonderful Parkrunners and volunteers) is being part of the same event as some super fast runners, looking at the stats and seeing women my age and older completing in half my time (if they can do it so can I), and seeing my stats and how I am improving. I have my rivals in my head but getting round them motivates me to push myself harder.
Parkattend will just be an empty shell of what it was. It worked really well until a few people got upset( very small percentage). Why do the vast majority who enjoy the bit of friendly competition have to be denied that pleasure to keep a few delicate people from being upset over almost nothing?
An alternative to Parkrun would be most welcome.
I would love to see parkrun continue with its former format, before the age stats were removed, but that's looking increasingly unlikely.
I couldn't agree more! 26,000 signatures from over 9 million parkrunners.. 0.3% A few delicate people being upset over almost nothing! The vast vast majority really don't care!
@@jclay007except the number actually actively parkrunning is much less than 9 million. Over a million haven't come back for a second one.
Parkrun was only ever aa race for the people who wanted it to be. Removing times and positions will remove the point of parkrun for a lot of people and the many people who walk or just don't care about their time or position won't be any better off by having these stats removed.
Exactly, parkrun could easily please the majority of participants but they are choosing to upset so many people who've been loyal followers for so long.
This next step would be much more disappointing than the previous one. I'm not sure I would have made the journey from a 28min 5k runner to being on the cusp of running a sub-20 without the motivation of progressing up the standings at my local parkrun each week.
Totally agree, this next step would be much more significant and detrimental.
Time for a new event to take centre stage?!? Would like to see it, as then they may realise that the majority of runners DONT agree with the direction they are heading.
They are very out of touch with their core participants and the fact that the stats have been a great attraction and a huge reason while people keep coming back.
It would be great if somebody stood at parkrun finish line and took everyone's details and times then published then under another name.
@@jonwilson8178 "Somebody"? At peak times in the Southampton parkrun we have over 70, sometimes 80 plus, people crossing the finish line every minute. That's why we frequently need up to four queues over 90 metres long waiting to collect finish tokens. It needs a large team of steward to manage the finish on the Common. Tricky init?
The parkrun bosses are complete and utter cowards, we all know why the stats have been cut, they just won't admit why. I love parkrun but if they remove the positions then I don't think I will continue and I don't even see it as a race, other than a race against myself, it's been going for 20 years, constantly growing until this rubbish started with stats removals and there's been zero comprises in the slightest from Russ, he's not even thinking about how it's damaging parkrun, just sticking to his decisions and that's it, it's not gonna be going for much longer at this rate, or it'll be hanging by a thread as a shadow of it's former-self.
The gender issue is a bit of a smokescreen. What is really happening is Russ has seen the main chance to earn himself a fat cat salary - so he's told the sponsors that he is going to double the size of parkrun in 5 years - and so give him the money.
The very large majority of runners love stats, hence why we the majority buy GPS watches and interogate that data. Parkrun had an excellent model that was loved by the majority, and now they are slowly killing everything that 'runners' loved. Removing records was a silly decision and if results are removed, then why bother holding the 'event'! Since the records decision, I have not attended, and if no results, I will never attend.
A great organisation with poor leadership, heading in the wrong direction. I stopped doing it months ago and wont be going back.
Parkrun attendance will drop by at least 50 percent now, no motivation without the stats. Might as well just stay in bed an hour extra 😢
They are going to make it a POINTLESS event. Literally, all of the reasons that I don't just do a 5k in my local area at anytime and attend Parkrun instead are going to be removed and make it totally unworthwhile. Really awful and senseless changes. I've done nearly 300 but will cease to attend if this really bad decision is put in place. It's getting really badly out of hand.
Still hoping they'll see sense but not holding my breath.
“for each of the disgruntled participants, whether they are a runner, walker or run director, if they leave Parkrun there will be another hundred runners to take their place.” So, a Parkrun has 100 runners. If one week 10 give up because they are fed up with the new regime that means the next event will have 1,000 new runners plus 90 originals. If the clown who said that is in charge of the books Parkrun will be dead and buried in a month anyway.
Yes, he's clearly not that great with numbers!
I've lost all respect for Paul Sinton Hewitt,
“for each of the disgruntled participants, whether they are a runner, walker or run director, if they leave parkrun there will be another hundred runners to take their place.”
“we are not a community-led organisation” and “we make our decisions from the top-down, that is how we operate and that is in our charter.”
“This is our playground, we made it. We set the rules of it. If you don’t like it perhaps you should play somewhere else
Yes, he really shouldn't have said what he did.
@@derekrunsagain How do we know he said it? I've only seen a second-hand account from a source that can't be considered unbiased (i.e. those that set the petition up).
@@parrais Parkrun HQ have been invited to respond if there is anything in the report that they do not agree with - and they have not responded. Parkrun HQ are only concerned with their sponsors who have provided financial backing for their 5-year plan. They have made promises to the sponsors that they will follow this 5-year plan and they have demonstrated at this meeting that they are in charge, they set the rules and they are going to follow the plan - all of which has been confirmed by this report - so the sponsors are happy and parkrun HQ are happy.
@@lindsaydavis4188but is the Charity Commission happy?
Quite arrogant for Paul Sinton-Hewitt to say that for every disgruntled parkrun participant whether they run, walk , or are a run director there are another hundred runners to take their place.
And really out of touch too!
26,000 signatures from over 9 million parkrunners.. 0.3% The vast vast majority really don't care!
@@jclay007 There are around 350,000 people who take part worldwide at parkrun each week. 9 million is the total who have joined parkrun since 2004. I doubt all 9 million are still participating or are aware of the changes.
Bear in mind that “quote” is from the people orchestrating “stats-gate”. We don’t know if he actually said that in their private meeting.
@@ChairmanAntelope PSH and RJ have been publicly invited to comment on the report. So far they have not responded or even denied that those quotes are unsubstantiated.
Love data and that’s what incentivises me to do my local Parkrun. Madness to change such a successful format.
Totally agree!
I think it's time for parkrunners who are against these changes to stand up and be counted. My suggestion for this would be that anyone who wants to show their opposition should take part in parkrun without scanning their barcode at the end. Obviously this may be seen as shooting ourselves in the foot but some short-term pain might lead to long term gain. In any case, if further changes mentioned in this recording are brought in, I wouldn't bring my barcode anyway.
Large numbers of participants without barcodes may encourage headquarters to think again. If there is a lot of opposition amongst parkrunners to these changes it is time to demonstrate it.
#doforgetyourbarcode
If the results end up as simply a list of names with no other data then I won't be bringing my barcode either. Let's hope it doesn't happen.
The removal of the stats has nothing to do with whether or not parkrun is a race, and nothing to do with parkrun trying to be more "inclusive". PSH and Russ have made it clear that parkrun do not wish to wade into the current trans debate. The removal of the stats was a reaction to legitimate questioning of why they allow gender self-ID when registering, instead of birth sex. This has led to many biological males taking the course records of female runners in the Women's age categories. Very unfair to women. I hope the "Save Women's Sport" campaign will eventually succeed, and take my hat off to people such as Mara Yamauchi, who is trying to shine a light on this.
Spot on. When you have a male parkrun RD hoovering up women’s records willy-nilly (pun intended) then the rest of us should be calling it out. If not we will very soon find ourselves on the wrong side of history, along with Russ, PSH and the rest of parkrun HQ.
It was a coward's way out. As they insist they're not a race then they could have left the stats well alone, stating that they are there for those that enjoy them, complete with any flaws, but our position is that they not be taken too seriously as we are not a race.
You are, of course correct, and HQ should be more direct on the issue. However, the most obvious way to maintain the spirit of parkrun is to follow British Athletics' practices, which is not a practical recourse for parkrun -- an organisation that thrives on informality.
It's also worth bearing in mind the "trans debate" is a crisis for the English language not just walks, or even runs, in a park.
The stats should remain as is. For those who disagree, simply disregard them.
I'm still not clear what problem parkrun HQ think they are trying to solve here. The existing model works for everyone as far as i can see - those who want to use it as a race or time trial can do so while others for whom it is an introduction to running or the culmination of their couch to 5k journey are perfectly able to do so. If it ain't broke why fix it???
Agree absolutely. The existing model was working very well. They even had a 'Get out of jail free card' on the trans issue as they insist parkrun is not a race and consequently the results were not to be taken too seriously. Had they stuck to this stance they wouldn't have upset so many people.
I wonder how long it will be before sponsors start losing interest?
If they upset too many people the sponsors will surely take note.
Many of us who have had their social media posts deleted by parkrun events pages and groups are now taking our concerns to the sponsors.
You're right. 100%. As a 74 year old I want to know how I am doing in relation to my peers: not because I am competitive, but because it's motivational. It's all a bit of a shame the way things are going.
Parkrun got me off my backside about 2 years ago and was the ever improvement of my time and comparing it to others in my age category that willed me to improve and train. It was a race against me based on data about me vs other people. They sent out a survey today asking for a "diversity survey" to be completed. Why can't they send out a survey to collate what the people want from parkrun and go with the majority (diplomacy at work, crazy thought!) instead of pandering to the few that try and make a fuss over nothing.
Yes, parkrun is really good for the health of the nation and the stats were an integral part of motivating people.
I have always used Parkrun as a run. I’m not racing anyone but myself. As I get faster I go past people I run with every week, while others get faster they pass me. In individual runs I’m not ‘racing’ anyone. However, if there were no ‘lists’ of finishers and times I wouldn’t run it, as I run my own 5k routes during the week. Parkrun is a measured course with independent timing, without that it’s not anything
Agree, if it was reduced to a list of participants with no times then I would not do it either.
I totally agree with the comments here. I have “fallen out” with Park Run. I am not going to do PR on a regular basis anymore. The whole fun for me was looking where I had finished overall and where I had come in my age category. Who else cares where I had finished in the age category it’s very personal and very motivating for me. I also loved trying to get as high as possible in the course record rankings and again motivational for me but who else cared if I was 10th or 35th in the rankings for a particular course and who genuinely would be put off taking part in PR if they looked course rankings. It’s a bizarre stance and one which could well see other events starting up in competition to PR and therefore is slow demise.
Totally lost motivation for parkrun now. Not been since this started.
I've lost some motivation since the age-graded stats disappeared but will continue to do them for now as they're such a positive force for people's health and well-being. However, if the results end up being just a list of names with know gender or age information (and who knows what else will be missing) then that may be the end for me.
Same same!
Really bad news - I'm not a fast runner, but the age grading stats and comparisons were a key part of the weekly motivation. If it gets to the situation you're describing then I just wouldn't bother with parkruns at all.
My run club provides monthly pacers at our local Parkrace and a lot of people use it to achieve PBs. It's clear that a lot of people doing parkrun care about thier time.
Do people care about how they stack up against other's times? Hard to know!
I think it's a bit of both really. Haven't yet spoken to anyone who thinks these changes are a good idea.
This is a real shame, I've never met anyone on parkrun, young old, fast or slow who has had a problem with the stats. Its a run not a race but it also has the benefit of educating people on what to expect if they enter a race, get used to crowds and that we are all respectful of each other as runners, walkers, etc. All the information is there and being collected as always, we the 'customers' should be able to view stats or not based upon what helps us, motivates us. If you opt out then you get the more simple view. Its simple to update a software system to do that stuff.. But if kept up then it will splinter into ParkRace and ParkRun, I suspect the latter will be very quiet.
Some people are just competitively anti competitive
I have been running for 35 years and got along fine before parkruns and will get along without them in the future. I only did them for the interesting stats.
One reason I love the parkrun is the distance. Most running events are too long for me, due to health issues, and I suspect that's the case for a lot of other participants too.
Even in training athletes often race despite that it's not the point of training. It's just human nature and saying that you could not race in a running event is the weirdest thing ever. What's the point of having this running event in the first place if you can't see finishing times?
Nice update. This is all a modern society issue of power that a small organisation created an event that has been so successful and done so much for people's mental and physical health. The organisation has turned into a big organisation, the power has just gone to their heads and they are trying to act now like a large corporate entity. They have forgotten where they came from and the arrogance to basically say if we don't like it - just don't come. I can understand progression, however all they had to do was ask the Parkrun community to vote on whether the stats should have been removed or not. Still doing Parkrun in its current state - just waiting to see what changes are coming next.
I can understand your scepticism when the first changes were announced, but not now. #parkrun has removed another barrier to participation by taking away some of the appearance of being elitist. It's working! At my local event, participation has doubled over the last year and the number of volunteers has increased. It's not just here, there is growth in parkruns right across the country. I hope you'll continue to hang around and enjoy your parkrun.
Disappointing behaviour from PSH et al, close minded with little thought for participants of the run. It wasn’t broken until some people decided to game the system…. It would seem that rather than tackle that issue the easier option is to destroy it… shameful
Exactly, they're deaf to the voice of the participants. The pre-February model was working extremely well in spite of the odd issue.
No one's going to bother with doing follows/friending people if Parkrun switches to that model. Everyone will be hidden by default and no one is going to care enough to log in (presumably that will be required) and be active on it like a social network/Strava. Because we can all do that on Strava if that's what we want, and it goes beyond parkrun to other distances, swimming, cycling etc.
Which means de facto that just about all the times will be hidden. At the moment on the 5k app I can easily follow various friends locally and around the country and congratulate them on a good time/milestone or have a friendly rivalry (e.g. aiming to run only 5 minutes slower than my sub-20 buddy).
Parkrun is social. It's a run (OK, or a walk) with people. And stripping the people out of the stats undermines that.
Agree, if they follow a model they're heading towards then it becomes much much less interesting.
I can understand how Parkrun stats are crushed by this issue. Birth-sex can't be reliably recorded for participants, therefore women's statistics are compromised. It seems unfair to keep the existing statistics going if everyone knows that they are only valid for males. For men and women wanting statistics I would suggest also doing some runs with your local athletics club who are in a position to deconflict gender statistics according to formal rules.
That’s a shame about the results 😩 thanks for the update Derek👍
Thanks Rob. Yes, very disappointing. Not looking good for the results.
Someone or team should stand at parkruns finish and take all the runners details who wanted to give them. Effectively stealing the competitors from parkrun. Parkrun don't care about their customers so its their own fault
Thanks for the video Derek.
Thanks. it's important to let people know what's happening. I think most of us were caught by surprise when the February changes came in.
I'm with you on this. I will no longer scan my barcode thereby denying parkrun my 😊data! I might even stop volunteering.
But you won’t will you. Be honest.
@@20yearsagotoday1 perhaps not, but others will!
Wasn't too bothered about records going in the first wave of changes, but understand the frustration of those who were. Not too clear on their next plans or how firmed up they are. The data is all there now though, so surely a third party could extract it, update it each week to get the old stats back, plus extra stuff too?
Some people didn't know the age-graded stats etc existed, so the initial wave of changes would not have been too troubling for them! Yes, their future plans are not clear but they appear to be going in the direction of removing more data. They may have been just sounding people out at the recent meeting. Not sure it would be easy for a third party to get the stats without a proper API. Scraping the website would not provide a permanent solution.
As a slow older runner. Ive seen Parkrun splitting over the last few years. Some (not all) fast young things at the front. Do their thing, finish bugger off. No regard to others trying there very best, but maybe finishing in 3 tines the time.
Its become for some a race. And it was never intended to be so. Its intention was to get as many people as possible moving.
How Parkrun squares the circle of accomadating everyone I dont know and im pleased its not me trying to do it.
They could have left things as they were. Their 'not a race' stance was their 'get out of jail free' card. Results not to be taken too seriously, but those who enjoyed them (the vast majority) could get motivation from them if they so wished.
I don't understand the assumption that slower runners are put off by the statistics. Ok, maybe some do, but plenty probably love the challenge of climbing up the leader board from further back. In trying to make parkrun inclusive they are catering for the exception, which makes it less inclusive. I think the parkrun organisers need their brains testing. It would be hilarious if they made these changes and people stopped going. Perhaps then they'd realise they are not as powerful as they think they are.
These kinds of changes don't always work out.
At least we have your Parkrun videos to enjoy (until some snowflakes ask for their faces to be blurred out 😂).
Thanks! Still hoping someone in headquarters will see sense.
I am an occasional run-director. I have been asked to not include certain people in the weekly photos. I can think of no easy way to do it - other than take photos beforehand of the people that don't want their photos taken and remove them later
@@glennnicholls8510I’ve always been told that people can put their hand over their face to signal to the photographer not to publish their photo. Maybe they could abolish the photographer volunteer role 😜
Such a shame.
Agree. The model before the February changes was working very well and was very inspirational.
This is disappointing news. I did not know this. I have always felt that the inclusivity or otherwise of a particular event is down to the atmosphere on the ground, on the day. It's nothing to do with the stats.
Is this based on the ‘report’ that the bring back the stats people wrote? Or something else?
It's mostly based on reports that came out in the Telegraph and the Guardian following parkrun's meeting with the BBTS campaigners. We can't know exactly where parkrun are headed as they likely don't know themselves but the meeting was certainly very concerning.
I do think operating like this puts its Charitable status at risk.
Not bothered about the stats at parkrun tbh. Strava has my stats and that is enough for me.
The sooner the strava anoraks find something else to run in the better.
i will finish my run nr 250 and then leave parkrun
Saw you at Winch today and I was going to tell you I watched your clip yesterday and agreed but I got waylaid by a mate and then you were gone. 23.52 for me today. (not that anyone cares of course )
Well done on your run! Thought it was important that people knew what was happening.
I lost faith in the stats when they put Mr Singh 179% age grade score in their results page each week.
If you start to look closely at the data you realise it's impossible to tell which people are taking it easy & the varying ground conditions mean comparing different events is not meaningful either.
Based on my interactions, the vast majority of parkrunners don't care. I'm a dedicated parkrunner and a bit of a stats geek and I don't even know what stats I'm supposed to be missing - all is still there on the 'Running Challenges' extension and individual event run pages, as well as the 5K app.
As far as I can tell, the only groups who seem to be upset are people who think to be 'worthy' you need to set course records or bag more tourist visits than anyone else... and a bunch of transphobes on Twitter, 99% of whom have never done parkrun.
I've read the account of the meeting on the petition site, and I take it with a pinch of salt, given it was written by one of those parties with an axe to grind.
Sadly, parkrun is now woke.
A lot of disinformation here.
The best way to stop these changes happening is to let people know about them BEFORE they happen.
Love parkrun, amazing community. They can do whatever they want with their stats and times. It's a free event that is run by volunteers. Anyone complaining needs to get a grip, you're getting an amazing event weekly for free.
Sadly, it's becoming less amazing.
It's not a race, it's a timed event. losing the stats doesn't worry me at all. If you want stats then head to a paid race.
They're heading towards just a list of participants with no gender or age information and very possibly no times! That's why it's important to get the message out there before it happens. Most of us were caught by surprise in February when the age stats etc were removed.
@@derekrunsagainvery deceitful to remove stats one day, then announce the changes the next day.
@@derekrunsagain If this is where they end up, then surely there would be no point in even recording the bar-codes and publishing a list of finishers at all! If it's all for personal private achievement only, then there is indeed no point in publishing anything! (Which begs the question what were they trying to achieve in the first place, when they invented the time recording / bar codes / registration process / results publishing etc)
Paid races don't provide the stats that were unique to parkrun. You would struggle to even find the course records for most events.
It was never ever meant to be a race - you obviously are very mistaken if you thought of it as a completive event. How can it be wrong when the people who invented it and are creating it as they intended.... what a strange rant video. If you want something more like a race type event why not start your own run? I agree it will be a massive shame if all the stats and positional metrics disappear as I am highly completive and it is great to see how you di compared to other and over different years. Even more so when you have children that span a decade. A few years ago I spoke to the founder of the parkrun and it was obvious it had grown into something which was unintentional and I am not surprised - unlike this guy I respect their choices because it is their creation. Hopefully it wont end up as bad as this man says it will be but again if you want to race join a club and race competitively.