Why some people don't like Power Plants
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- Опубліковано 27 лип 2023
- Power Plant AC regenerators are famous worldwide for improving and preserving high-end audio systems. Why is it that some people don't like them as much as other people do?
- Наука та технологія
Glad to see Sirhan Sirhan got his life together finally
🙂
Thanks for the insight really appreciate
Great stuff Paul.
Perfect answer, I work on supplies at a 500KA to 2MA and we we do the same, for the same reason, just not on audio systems :-)
Makes sense!
Sirhan Sirhan.... is in San Diego
I clean all my power with Dawn and we don't need more Regulators and the gov should stay out of it! lol
Or they think it sounds different but doesn't. 🙉
Apparently these power conditioners make for a great conversation for a piece of equipment that serves more as an appliance in the home.
I wonder if the $75.189 on the display, is the previous week sales 😁
Previous day
Great question, Serhan. Too bad Paul failed to answer it. He just rambled on about the benefits of a power plant. Well, I've owned a PS Audio P12 and now an Audioquest Niagara 5000. They're very similarly priced, so a comparison is completely valid. The P12 not only sucked dynamics away, it softened the highs to the point of sounding low-fi. I inserted a Niagara 5000 because my P12 was sent back to PS Audio for the second time under warranty. I was unwilling to live without my system for weeks, so I figured I would try a 5000 on a 30-day trial. Well, immediately after inserting the 5000, I knew it was staying. I had that 'aha!' moment when my high frequencies returned. I'm talking about ride cymbals that sound real as opposed to cotton balls being taped onto the ends of the drum sticks like the P12 made them sound. My setup also doubles as a high end surround setup for movies. And the dynamics when I played a movie were just unreal. The Niagara 5000 was amazingly more dynamic and open when compared to the P12. So long story short, I sold the P12 when I finally got it back. I no longer have that itch to upgrade my system like I did with the P12 and knowing something was missing but I wasn't sure what exactly. So there's a real life review on why some people don't like the power plants.
what other power conditioners you have tried before?
@@ayc3695 Monster waaay back in the mid-90s, Panamax and Furman more recently. PS Audio was my first 'high end' power product, so I blindly trusted it was performing magic because it just sounded 'different'. Panamax and Furman made no noticeable difference and why I chose to move up the ladder to the likes of PS Audio and Audioquest.
What was plugged in the powerplant when you had it? I use mostly low power stuff like dacs and headphone amps.
@RandyDaMan All source gear and my preamp. I never tried to plug my Ayre VX-5 Twenty power amp into it. I knew it would never be able to keep up with it.
@@cliffolson1528 What power cord were you using?
Hi Paul, great video! What is the specific electric consumption of a P20 to do it's job ( converting DC to regulated AC)?
It’s pretty significant. Mine raises the electric bill each month, it is basically another big amplifier running all day everyday.
If you’re listening to music all day, every day, then what you say is true. If not, then the P20 uses only enough energy to keep its meters up and running, which requires very little current.
The power plant works… I have used 1 for 25 years for all the front end…. I do clean all my cables with Craig Deoxit….every 90 days…
Installing 4 dedicated 240V circuits to feed my 5 class A monoblocks and a pair of 3 channel Aragon 8008X3 amps driving 2 ohm loads made many differences. First, Jimi Hendrix stopped throwing breakers. Second, hum & noise vanished. Finally, even at low volumes there was a noticeable improvement in sound quality. I think my power plant has a reasonably low impedance but my main transformer is unfortunately on a pole two houses down. My plan was to install boutique cable all the way back to the stators but the utility was having none of it. They also refused to offer 3-phase service in spite of the 3 necessary and quite large transformers on the pole that's in my yard. We should have some discussion about 3-phase rectifier filtering and the benefits of never having a zero crossing in overall power delivery. Paul is already thinking about the enormous BOM and space this would require but doesn't the end justify the means in audio?
A paragraph, or two, perhaps?
_"First, Jimi Hendrix stopped throwing breakers."_
And did your ears stop bleeding?
Seriously, how hellishly loud do you listen?
@@Douglas_Blake_579 For music that's good loud, 100-105dB peaks. It isn't so much about super loud but just fairly loud while being exceptionally clean. Too loud and details get lost in the onslaught. Yet we can do that and just step outside and it's good again. The police have shown up 3 times or so in 25 years. One decided to come in and hang out for a while. All our neighbors have our number and know we'll shut it completely down if it's bothering them.
@@Douglas_Blake_579something tells me he's making the whole thing up.
Boutique cable on distribution lines?! Three-phase power to feed a home stereo?! Give me a break!
Not to mention that if you have to crank your system up to concert levels to find it enjoyable, you've got some shit hearing. You'd be way too deaf to hear the faint mains hum coming from your speakers...
@@mattmoreira210
No surprises there.
More than once I've done a call where the complaint is "loss of bass" and I will get there to find subs maxed out, the whole house shaking and in the end it's not that he's losing bass ... he's losing his hearing and taking his family with him.
You would be surprised how many "audiophiles" have no clue about SPL, optimal equipment, or their neighbour's opinion...
Meanwhile I tend to "brag" about what I can do with a nice TPA3255 mini-amp, a pair of Pioneer towers and the careful application of a few nice tweaks. 50 w/ch is more than enough for most people.
Thanks for the reply.
Howdy.
My gut feeling is that some don't like the idea of chopping the DC into AC. Perhaps the thinking is that it introduces noise.
Personally I believe PS Audio addresses this issue with due persistance.
Regards.
If a given transformer happens to be large enough to let given component to operate consistently at full load without hesitation, I'd say its perfectly sized. not oversized at all!
Paul is talking about using a 5 amp transformer when a 1 amp version would meet your criteria.
Amazing explanation, but I'm interested in one more thing. What is that screen behind you displaying? Is it the the sum of sales per day? Impressive :)))
Still have an UN-answered question here:
After the power plant, AC goes to the transformer inside the amplifier which again has higher impedance. Does it discount the benefit of the power plant?
Unless you design a DC output from power plant which powers the amplifier directly like Naim did.
Any thoughts, Paul?
Ultimately your electronics performance is a function of the DC supply. Once your device's internal supply is up and running, the device runs off the big bulk capacitors storing DC for it, the AC is really just topping up the charge on those capacitors to keep things going. Thus, the AC side is far less critical and it's usually pretty well filtered and stabilized in each piece of equipment, individually.
I doubt that it would either depend on or degrade the power plant's effectiveness.
Well, a PowerPlant is basically a power amp that delivers a 60hz signal at 120v. That's it. The output impedance of this 'amplifier' can be made quite low....and it looks like PS Audio has done so by the images I can find online; it's a VERY beefy amplifier. Further, like Naim, it is fully regulated at the output stage...so it's actually an amplifier being used to drive (and regulate) a bigger amplifier....so it can cop well with back EMF, large current demands, etc.
I have had friends use PP's while they were in apts or rental homes...where one *simply can't* have an electrician install a dedicated 20amp circuit(s).
@@DBravo29er
You may want to re-watch the video. Paul explained they've moved on to a different technology... So depending on the age of those PP it may or may not work that way.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I don't need to rewatch. The most recent images I've seen are of a PP made in July of 2022. Lest a change has been designed and implemented since then (without a single word from Paul), I am confident that I know how they function.
@@DBravo29er
Whatever ....
I completely agree with you. It's a lot of transients and other home equipmenr that effects the voltage and current from the wall. As a side note, I watched a repair video from "Mend It Mark" repairing a PS Audio Power Plant 300, and could see all the results on oscilloscope. It just looks fantastic.
Thats why you hook in on a seperate group
There are more ways than 1
Well, the oversized powersupply theory crash when you have a tube preamp powersupply with caps and serial resistors for lowering the supply voltage from 400V down to 300V or even 250V for the tube anode.
affects the voltage
For better effect
Amplifiers, good ones and decent ones are made for work with variable voltage. And not affect them.
To me the power plant falls into the category of things you do when you've done everything else. When you have upgraded or built up a system so advanced that you're looking at what else can add improvements. That's to say electrically any change you make at the power supply point will of course make a difference, so why not these power plants? However, at their prices, a lot of us can do without them, people who have built the very expensive system will need to make sure that all that work is not cancelled out by bad power supply, so upgrading that area makes sense to them. It's like if you take ultra budget car, with as little power as possible, changing the tires will make such a little difference that the expense won't be worth it, but if you take high power vehicle, they are usual held back by the quality of rubber on them, so there it can make massive difference.
Thanks for this, its an interesting insight.
I'd like to have a system worth trying a power plant with, and then the option to try one.
Many people are very dismissive of anything they cant measure, but after many decades of listening both as audiophile, and as someone who has built and worked at many top London recording studios, I know that many things that sound obviously better cannot be measured ( cables are a prime example). Experience has shown that those auto dismissive's opinions can be relegated to the bin.
It wouldn't at all surprise me if a power plant made a substantial difference even to a relatively modest system. I have never heard one and cannot say anything with any certainty, but I do wonder.. :)
It’s a $10,000 electrical surge protector. 😳🙄
Like buying a $10,000 Rolex watch that tells you the time.🙄😳
@@davidfromamerica1871 Have you actually looked into what these units are or are you grabbing at straws and guessing? 🙄
@@johnmcquay82 so many quick to judge. So few willing to actually try it out even though they have a great return policy.
Measurements can’t find the difference and your ears can not hear the difference. I wonder how you determine that there is a difference between cables of sufficient shielding and cross section? You certainly can’t hear the difference in any sort of objective listening test.
My little P5 has been on without a single hiccup for years to power my separates. The day it dies, I’m getting another powerplant.
I think there comes a point where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, For $6000 you can buy a really good UPS ( not the same but good enough ) and then spend the other $5500 on a few pairs of speakers like ADS L910s, Maybe some Hafler or Nelson Pass Adcom Amps, a killer preamp, a Dac and well you get the picture.. This is for the people with more money then brains, Not far from $1000 HDMI cables. To each their own but if you talk with most die hards they will tell you this is just not worth it for what your getting. I think PS gear looks amazing and im sure its top notch build quality but thats alot of cash for something that makes almost zero differnce ( im sure on paper it makes a difference but thats it ).
You still have the voltage drop occurring in the connected components power circuitry. You are just getting rid of the voltage drop between your power companies transformer “on the pole” and to the wall plug of your audio component. Which will be negligible except for the last bit from your power panel to your audio component, and yes it is good to not compound that with limitations of a connected audio component’s power supply circuit, but that is even more negligible for well designed equipment.
The key benefit is not allowing voltage dips and spikes to be presented to the power input of your connected audio component. For example when large loads start and stop outside the scope of the audio system. When Heat pumps start and stop, well water pumps, refrigerator, microwaves and so forth with diminishing impacts, there could be wild swings in voltage. Then there is lightning and even bigger, but less frequent variations that happen to our power from the power company. Tube/valve amplifiers often do not like input power variation due to their high step up ratios in their high voltage circuits. It’s easy to not feed enough or too much voltage to these circuits.
I would add one to my system if I could afford one. The only sonic improvement I would expect would be from reducing the risk of deterioration of tubes, better consistent sound during external transient events to power (not my concern, but others may not be so tolerant) and an easier and longer life for connected solid state equipment. Not all decisions should be based on sound improvement in my opinion.
I wouldn't characterize the voltage drop at the wall as insignificant.
Systems benefit from a dedicated three wire circuit. I recommend upsizing, unless the panel is fairly close.
Breakers can pass many times their rated trip amperage.
Devices pull their current differently, some linearly.
Many power supplies pull current in high amplitude short duration spikes.
Of course all other best practices, ie., secure connections, hospital grade 20a.
i live with 240 volts in the uk.dont have power issues that need sorting out. albeit ,id like to try out a power plant ,just so i can hear for myself.
I have never read a negative comment about a Power Plant. The most negative thing I've read is that it isn't necessary and comments get increasingly more positive from there.
I have owned two
P-300 power plants (your first model) and they made an amazing difference in my system. Now I have a P-12 which is a smaller unit and it's still does everything that you claim to the overall SQ.
Straying off of today's topic, I'd like to correct a term that you've used In several of your latest videos, 'magnitude'. Suggest that use the term 'order of magnitude' which means by a factor of 10. Just saying.
I bet investing in PS Audio's line of regenerator will only do good to the music, but then there is the price to consider, and i get it - its not cheap. It really is a investment.
McIntosh recommends their big amp to plug directly to wall socket.
Its usually not necessary to plug a big power amp like that into a regenerator. An AC regenerator is actually a slightly modified power amp. Years ago when PS Audio first started making these things, they released their best unit (I believe it was called the 1000 something). At the exact same time they released a new power amp called the Classic 250. The 2 looked identical. When Monster Cable released their first line of AC regenerators, they also released a line of power amps that looked identical to the regenerators.
Hi Paul. It seems like you're saying Power Plants are designed to compensate for equipment with insufficient power supplies. Is it, therefore, correct to assume that PS Audio equipment doesn't need Power Plants? Thanks again!
And that’s the fine line audio companies try to walk - Denafrips is another example. They tout the performance and build quality of their units BUT you need this additional unit to make your first unit perform the way it should. So what they’re saying is that the first unit is inherently inferior. Amir with Audio Science Review gave exhausting measurements on a couple of PP which anyone would’ve found if they undertook the absolute least amount of research, so this question strikes me as a plant (pun intended).
@@homerjones3291 Yes! I saw Amir's review. I recall things like Mpingo discs, special digital clocks, etc. and the amazing difference they made. I'm still trying to figure out how three feet of GR Research power cord can make a difference after miles of power company cabeling. There seems to be so much psychological delusion and manipulation in this, otherwise, wonderful hobby. We need more double blind tests! Thanks again...
They aren't saying that at all. Their products would be redicously expensive if a power plant was built into each one. Their products are built to a certain standard, like everything else, this is an additional improvement.
@@brucermarinothe same way three feet of rusty lead pipe can effect your drinking water after the water has traveled miles.
@@Pete.across.the.street Yes! Given the psychological resistance to rational argument I'm trying to build a case bit by bit. Subjective opinions need to be referenced to objective evaluation. I've formally studied psychological statistics and experimentation. Double blind, ABX, and other tests could be very valuable. It does seem for all the millions of dollars floating around most are afraid to do. What about having a sealed room containing the speakers with a digital recording device. One could change the power cords etc. outside the room and then do a null test on the digital recordings? Thanks again!
I had that very early PS Audio preamp with the heavy little external power supply. Harry Pearson of The Absolute Sound said it was THE cleanest solid state preamp on the market at the time. I now again have the cleanest preamp on the market over 40 years later. I'm proud of the improvements I made on it to make it EVEN cleaner sounding. I use a wonderful tube preamp also, in my second system. I can remember which recordings sound best on which. But back to the early 1980s PS preamp; I noticed it had to be plugged in for 3 days straight to achieve its best sound. After first day, a little bright and chalky sounding; not much bass. Day 2; more warmth, and bass starting to get serious. Highs started settling down. Day 3; perfectly tight well defined authoritative bass, no more white chalkiness hogher up, but vivid tone colors instead with highs that sounded pure and nearly grainless. I assumed the external HCPS (high current power supply) had something to do with the long warm up period. I always turned the amp off after use, but kept it plugged in at all times. Except for occasional re-arranging its placement or cleaning the terminals on the back.
Can I interest you in an audio grade Ethernet cable? It even has a flashing LED.
@Karl. After thinking it over, I've decided not to deal with you Mr. Haney. Unless you have a phone with a long enough cord, that I wouldn't have to keep climbing up that darn telephone pole. Always ring at least 50 times before giving up.
Question: You can change it from the outside according to you, but if a preamp still has a small transformer inside, doesn't that negate the benefit?
No, because the power source for the small transformer has already been leveled (or "cleaned").
Sales of PowerPlants must have tanked after the ASR review :-)
ASR is amazing. This is more audio snake oil. Please, Paul, just stop it.
Amir calls himself a scientist. Yet, he is not a scientist.
His channel's title is a lie, and we are expected to believe his assertions?
I doubt that Paul lost any Power Plant sales, because those that worship Amir do not purchase Power Plants, or any high-end gear.
Amir's channel is the haven for audio trolls. And Amir feeds the trolls.
The P3 pretty much made me a fan of PS Audio. I am in the love it camp :)
Well. I had one some 20 years ago, and it was OK. People say they are not build the same way anymore. There is also a review , in a popular site on the internet, showing that actually the PP is intruducing a lot of noise in the chain.
If you're talking about asr, their reviews are about as useful as an abortion clinic in a red state
@@Pete.across.the.street
Ummm ... FYI Amir is an engineer with a ton of experience. The odds are he's forgotten more about electronics than most people will ever know (including me). If you know how to read his graphs and diagrams, his assessments of the various things he tests actually do make sense.
Just because you don't understand them does not mean they are useless. The trick is to invest a bit of time and effort to *learn* how to read and understand his reports.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 he doesn't know how to apply those skills to high end audio. He can't phantom any effects on audio that weren't in his text books. High end audio is more complex and he doesn't understand the nuances. He beloved if it doesn't show up on his little machine, it can't be true. He tests for the wrong things and jumps to conclusions all the time.
@@Pete.across.the.street
The little matter that he also listens to the equipment he tests, notwithstanding.
Since the price of power plant is expensive.
Interesting, I can kind of see how this could effect a power amp where they generally don't have voltage regulators, however on a pre-amp, as long as the raw DC from the rectifiers is sufficient to keep the voltage regulators happy, then changing the impedance of the source should make no difference.
Most power amps, even high end ones, do not have voltage regulators in their power supply. They rely on beefy capacitors for ripple reduction and to maintain voltage under load. But engineers almost universally decided that voltage regulation is an unnecessary expense.
Consequently, voltage sags under heavy load and whenever the amp does not get the expected voltage from the wall. A good power supply should filter all noise coming from the wall, but that's the ideal - not quite reality.
As Paul states, a low impedance power supply makes a big difference to the sound. That's separate from the regulator. Try putting a heavy duty power cable on your preamp, if you got a revealing system you will hear the difference.
It's one of those things that may not make sense to a technical person, but when you hear it on a good system you can't deny it.
@@jdlech
Not an "unnecessary expense".
Given the heavy loads modern power amps place on their supplies, a regulator circuit in a linear supply would be bigger, hotter and more failure prone than the amp itself. It's not a question of expense, it's a matter that high current series regulators have a very nasty habit of failing.
@@Douglas_Blake_579 That's the other reason to have an unregulated power supply. You're wrong to claim it's one and not the other. Because it's both reasons.
@@jdlech
Hmmm ... can't quite accept that we can both be right, can you?
I am a long way from the neighbourhood street stepdown transformer, so my power sags a lot. I got a baby P3 power plant, and it was awesome! But I needed more power for watching movies though, so I got another, one for each amp. Super awesome!
But, I have had reliability issues. Both have blown their 230v mains fuses after about a year, and 1 keeps flashing the power and output LED's every week or so when I turn it on. I switch off the mains switch, then turn it on again, and we are away.
Just frustrations, that's all. I still wouldn't do without them!
And you’re not sending them in for repair? Is there no warranty coverage? I can only assume so because if something that expensive starts 🤬ing up then 🤬 that. Someone better be making it right is what I’d have to say about it.
@@shannonmiller5648 It took me a year after paying for it to get the 2nd one, the problem one.
Initially they sent me a silver one by mistake, and it didn't match the 1st one, which is black - the same colour as the rest of my gear.
The agent here in New Zealand really mucked me around, so I just put up with it.
The only PS Audio Power Plant I've heard was the old PPP. Funnily enough, it made the system cleaner sounding but sat on dynamics. Unless that has changed dramatically, I'll stick with Shunyata mains cables and distribution
There a barely comprehensible letter from a power plant admirer. That might be the first clue....😉 But in all honesty PS audios power plants do look incredible...
I think it’s mostly because you loose power and dynamics from using one of your power plants. Furthermore the ac noise is transferred, although slightly lower. So paying for a big useless box is stupid, even on an unlimited budget.
what is that monitor in the wall showing 76 grand $ ??
Maybe PS Audio's current bank balance? 😅
No - just kidding. I'd also be interested, what's the meaning of the 76k. 🙂
I assume it is for motivating the team in that space. You set a goal and as orders come in you broadcast your progress. It's a good way to get everyone working as a team to a common goal. Then group celebrations when the target is exceeded.
@@TinoGoratsch89
It better be more than that or someone is in trouble.........
Hi Paul, it looks like you are approaching the explanation from a slightly different perspective than in the past. In any case I think this latest video on the subject is the best one yet, you made. Based on this information, could it be said that a power plant provides more value as the power of amplifiers goes up and as the quality of the AC mains goes down. Where I live, we have 230VAC power. At any time of the day and any day of the year, I can stick a DVM in the outlet and I get something like 232 to 234VAC. I have never seen a light change in intensity in my home, in the 10 years I live here. My class AB solid state amplifier is rated at 2x50W RMS with a 4 Ohm load (I have an 8 Ohm load). Would you agree that in my scenario, a power plant does not give the same bang for the buck as for somebody else who has a 2x300W amp in a home where the lights change intensity throughout the evening? I think that is why there are people who love it and people who think the juice is not worth the squeeze.
My take on that would be that it's not the amplifier that matters first, but the actual Watt you use. Secondly, if you draw say 100W and that's a 'limit' for the lines to supply, then a larger amplifier might even improve things IF it has larger capacitors, better efficiency etc (a class A vs a class D for instance). 🙂
@@PSA78 A prerequisite for that must be that you actually want to consider a class D amp.
@@hugobloemers4425 It was just one example. But I don't know any rational reason why people wouldn't, PS Audio and some of the best amplifiers today based on measurements are class D. Personal bias towards certain coloring is perfectly fine to have, but it is what it is.
Most modern audio gear has the requisite filtering to clean up the noise from the power lines built right in. Most also have the capacitor reserves to handle the AC is missing a few cycles or varying up and down for short periods of time.
Where I figure Paul's power plants can be helpful is where you're getting minor brown-outs for longer periods of time or where your AC service is inherently low in voltage.
All more or less modern audio gear has power supplies with enough "power planting" and protections as it is. Some sort of a filter, stabilizer and PFC is a must. In my summer house where the grid is rather awful I have a power plant for the AC, boiler and the fridge even, but not for the PC or audio, it works fine as is. Even when some neighbor genius decides to hook up some ancient transformer welder to the power line and weld some junk for half a day.
Exactly, it's easy as that. These products are snake oil
Of course it has some built in. But the products would cost a lot more if it had the level of a power plant built in
@@Pete.across.the.street Because selling 50$ worth of parts for thousands of dollars is so high-end...
@@PotatMasterRace idk what that has to do with anything. But make a DYI whatever if you don't feel it's worth it. It's a lot more than just parts that go into it
Will they make my blender sound better?
I still would bet that 99.99% would fail on A/B test (same system with or without power plant)and other 00.01% would have luck and guessed.
So the power plant is just a VFD?
No it’s not that people misunderstand what it does. People who criticize them believe that well designed equipment doesn’t need a power plant, and regardless in a blind comparison with or without a regenerator the average person simply cannot identify a sound improvement worth thousands of dollars.
this
Actually no one can identify a sound improvement because there isn't one to identify.
@@ryanamendt8363very true. Under ideal conditions, the only thing we can do is to identify differences in sound but no one is qualified to say if it’s worst or better. A reference sound probably does exist in the universe but not a single human being can identify it, let alone convince others of it.
Don't take this the wrong way, but you guys are making it up. You can't provide a single reference to a well done blind test on any AC regenerator ever made. Not one. I'll even go so far as to say you can't provide one on any piece of high end audio equipment, regardless of what it is.
You'll respond, but you'll ignore what I just said and talk about something else. I'll never get a reference to anything you claim, because those references don't exist. The best you'll come up with is something like, "I know this guy that had one and some people did some type of test, and they couldn't hear a difference. So that's 100% proof. I even heard it for myself"
@@AT-wl9yq I fully admit no one has done it. Not the manufacturer- that would be an existential threat to their claims. And certainly not the poor soul who spent needless thousands on this magic box- they don’t want to know. I know you aren’t reading this so please don’t respond.
Mr A: "I hear a difference, it's better, more airy"
Mr B: "I hear no difference"
Mr C: "One of them is wrong"
Mr D: "No, they're both right. But one of them is an X-Men with super ears."
Mr E: "Thanks to the X-Men, I'm going to make a lot of money"
Ah, a nice pair of McIntosh 2300s….
At PS Audio we love PowerPlants because what other product can you make a claim that something is imperfect, then have a switch on your product that makes the output imperfect (because it actually could be better). But hey, it is not like transformers don't have 50-200 feet of say 18awg wires, maybe in something enormous 14 awg or that there are huge inductors in the way too .... nope, got to have that "low impedance" that actually is not (AS ASR Showed).
I love my power plant. I don't really understand the science of why it works, but I can sure hear that it does.
You can hear it doing nothing. Try a double blind test.
If you understood the science, you wouldn't have bought one
Oh, look ASR trolls!
@@chrisnyc3641 Keep flushing your money down the toilet and liking your own comments, weirdo
@@chrisnyc3641 It's a sad day when science is considered trolling.
Show a measurement of a Powerplant lowering impedance. The test I saw showed that it INCREASED impedance over mains.
I go to the comments whenever theres a video about the Power Plant, knowing that the geniuses from ASR will be here to spread their "knowledge".
I'm not an ASR subscriber ... but I will give those "geniuses" credit for one thing ... They have at least some proof of their positions.
What you got?
@@Douglas_Blake_579 I don't have a power plant. I'm only here because Amir and his cult trashed the power plant awhile back, so it would make sense for his followers to be back again.
However, I can say that I have followed ASR awhile back and bought some of the gears that they recommended. I ended up hating how they sounded, so I now don't care much about measurements anymore.
@@beaverish
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience.
Measurements and specifications can be very helpful ... which you will understand the first time you end up with a 100 watt amp connected to 10 watt speakers. I agree that ultimately the sound is the thing, but the tech stuff does have it's place and it's value.
ua-cam.com/video/VH3fjOc1pzA/v-deo.html
I suspect I have DC Leakage from the wall, after using PP3, the noise is still there, the PP3 doesn't solve the noise problem, ending up I have to buy a power conditioner
Is it even possible to have dc leakage from the wall?
@@Pete.across.the.street
Yes, that can happen. BUT only on the leg from the final street-side transformer to your house wiring. Even then it would require a faulty appliance or device leaking DC back into the mains, and it's very likely you would spot that because whatever is leaking would also not be working correctly.
Transformers pass AC and block DC that's one of the reasons they are used in power distribution networks.
You don't need such power plants if equipment power supplies are competently designed to completely eliminate RF/EMI (e.g., >= 30dB lower than FCC class-B) and tightly regulate the output DC.
You will always have the snake oil believers also, those that just can't afford them and those that don't have high enough resolving systems. Thanks paul!
Enough with the audio snobbery! I agree speakers have different tonal qualities and reproduction of detail as they are more acoustic instruments than electrical. But modern audio electronics is pretty much a mature technology. A $399 Denon receiver from Best Buy has just as much resolving ability as a BHK amplifier. I'm not talking about power ability, build quality, or aesthetics, but rather the ability to reproduce an audio waveform within the amplifiers operating limits. And that can be easily measured. What exactly is "resolving ability"? I say noise floor, frequency response flatness, and distortion. I mean what else is there with analog audio electronics? Even f the high priced unit does measure better we have to consider the accepted limits of human hearing perception. 0.001% distortion is simply not audible. Especially since the speakers are 5% or more! And by "accepted limits" I mean studies published by doctors who have done extensive testing and research in the subject. Not some audiophile magazine hack with no advanced education.
Resolving means you can hear the minute details in the recording. Uless you're shopping at best buy magnolia, you're probably not hearing them. That's probably why most of these snake oil claims come up, they are listening on best buy quality systems. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but resolving they are not.
I have had these receivers from best buy and they are not resolving. When you see what they are pared with. I'm sorry but if you think stuff at best buy is the best you can do, you need to look elsewhere. When your talking receiver based gear your not going to hear the resolving abilities. I have experienced that hooked up to expensive b&w speakers and other brands. It didn't cut it till I went to separates or a integrated. Being resolving doesn't mean you need to spend a lot. Unless you have experience you simply do not know!
@@brandonburr4900 exactly. Hifi tweaks don't work on lofi systems. Upgrade your amp and speakers to hifi before you mess around with cables, power conditioners, and such
@@Pete.across.the.street Then explain to me from an electronics POV, what makes an amplifier "resolving"? If I want to build a resolving audio amplifier, what do I need to do to achieve that?
Didn't we find out that older PS audio products actually did the opposite of what he just said with evidence?
The haters will still complain no matter what you say. Let the people who own them and enjoy them continue to do so.
The third thing that some conditioners do is to block DC. This I can assure you can improve sound quality as transformers stop buzzing and are no longer saturated causing loss of dynamic range.
"I can assure you can improve sound quality as transformers stop buzzing and are no longer saturated causing loss of dynamic range."
It sounds like you have a rather severe AC power quality problem, perhaps DC on the line, if your power transformers are saturating. I would get that fixed because while a PS Power Plant may eliminate the problem with your audio gear, the PS Power Plant has a power transformer too if I am not mistaken. DC on that is no good either, especially if it's a toriod type which PS Audio likes to use. BTW, line operated switch mode power supplies could care less about DC on the AC line.
@@andydelle4509 I built a DC blocker and it fixed it.
id be willing to bet the majority of people who buy powerplants can't hear above 14k hz
Biological bottleneck
How much?
Is it possible you could find an AC source poor enough, like a rural mobile home, or a sputtering generator, to do testing on the powerplant with? It would be fairly definitive if you could actually record an audible improvement on a system in that scenario. Or, at the very least, show the difference in oscilloscope recorded waveforms from the amp output if it's difficult to capture via microphone. You have said several times that for most people plugging into the wall is sufficient and sometimes preferred, and the internet seems to forget that and get angry. There are use cases for such a product, especially in parts of the world where relatively clean wall power is not a given, but I think there isn't enough emphasis from you on that ideal use case.
Other potential places to look for poor AC power include:
Apartments/condos
2nd and 3rd world countries
Older houses with knob and tube
Wherever Liam Neeson stabbed that guy in the knees
Unfortunately those don't exist any longer
Probably because they are big and expensive.
And usually are very ugly .
I disagree with Paul's take on engineers not building things above the power requirements. If there is any person that will cut cost it is a manager aka Paul, the person giving this speech.
I have a number of PS Audio gear and Power Plants are some of them. My living room system cannot accommodate an only music scenario and instead has to do double duty with a home theater. With the Power Plants in use, the improvements are noticable in both sound AND video. Incoming AC doesn't seem to be unstable but there is a noticeable improvement in audio and video with them in the chain. This is NOT snake oil!
Because they are the size of a subwoofer maybe?
Hmm - if the fluctuations and disturbances from the mains can be heard in the audio playback chain (source > amplifier > loudspeaker), then it is rather to be assumed that the quality of these parts (source + amplifier + loudspeaker) is rather modest and one should spend the money, which one is willing to spend for powerplants, nevertheless rather for more disturbance-proof audio components.
To show the importance of the power plant it’s simple: just listen to your system after hours like 9:00PM, or later, than listen the same configuration around 1:00PM in the afternoon.
You will be surprised how the power load over the power line can produce degradations in the quality of the sound.
I've often wondered about the time differences you mention, I have always put the difference down to there being less outside ambient noise at those times.
I could tell a difference in our first home in the 80's. Subsequent residences, no such variance.
I was quite busy mixing, editing, mastering. Much work was done via headphones.
While wearing headphones the line voltage characteristics seemed distinctly varying.
That said, I've not experienced that distinct a difference since.
Are There Any Absolutes In Audio?
Here are some things that in my experience at least; you can always count on.
1. Bigger transformers=Bigger Sound. I have had equipment with transformers quite a bit bigger than a softball. The size of the instruments always seem bigger. Grand pianos sound big as life in your listening room, even on some small sized but particularly competent bookshelf speakers.
2. Thicker speaker wire having fuller bass and more bass. Many decades ago someone in Stereophile magazine discovered that a certain brand of antenna wire had world class transparency, and great sound quality. I used it for years back in the 1990s. I also had Monster Cable back then, which was much thicker. The antenna wire beat it sonically on everything but warmth and bass. Definitely Monster Cable in those two areas. Have gone far past using stuff like that, but still notice that thicker cables always have quite the low end.
3. When listening through headphones, my headphone amp has 2 input sockets on the front panel. One for the older large diameter jacks, and one for the skinny mini jacks. The one always sounds better to me.
4. Tube amps in my experience, always sound like they warm up faster and reach their performance pinnacle faster than solid state. My solid state amps are still finding more and more space between instruments, even on the third or more record, cd or tape I'm playing. If your solid state amp takes 4 hours to reach it's highest performance and you only play it for 2 hours at best; you may have never heard your amps true capabilities.
5. Silver conductor cables alway sound purer than copper conductor cables? Most of my favorite cables have copper conductors, but for sheer purity to my ears (and many others), silver seems to be the obvious king in that performance area.
6. The sound of speakers never seem to gel in smaller rooms. In bigger rooms, like the one I have, the spatiality seems limitless and the focus doesn't sound contrived; but really settles in and fully gels.
7. I have rarely met a tweak product that didn't work effectively. With all the suspicous bashing people do; who have never tried it and whose systems and perception might make them useless.
"Engineers do the minimum to make it work, but not a lot more". Totally wrong. It's the finance/business people who ask if it can't be done with less.
Audio Science Review showed with labratory testing the the P12 actually added noise and impedance to the system and didn't regenerate the power, same exact graph pattern. Overpriced 50 pound paper weight. That's why people criticize your power "regenerators".
I owned one, it made the sound flat, it was much cleaner, but sucked the life out of the music
True Paul…I don’t want you inside my thing. 😂
Why do people say they get a loud clicking sound in their PPP? My son does in his and your service dept says it no longer can be fixed! You’ve sold a million of these
That “Clicking” sound is a “Feature” to let you know it’s Authenticated Audiophile Hi End and it’s working..👍😎
Mine doesn't........................
Not for me. Too complex. I am a simple man with simple pleasures. I will stick to pot plants.
pOTeNtIoMeTeR pLaNtS???
Satisfying and a lot less expensive.
Ok, Mr. Burnout
A PS Audio Power Plant is an integral part of my new home theater! No regrets! I spent too much on the new system, to trust it to a, "Power Strip".
If Paul would sell the power plants for devices from other manufacturers with little transformers, then I could understand this. But he also sells them for PS Audio equipment which, according to Paul, has already oversized transformers. So, what's the point? If those power plants are still necessary for your own devices, then why don't you super oversize the transformers in your devices so that no power plants are necessary anymore. It doesn't make sense!
Any amp/preamp etc. worth its salt, (ESPECIALLY EXPENSIVE ONES) should and do have everything they need to produce clean DC rail voltage adequate to perform at the rated specs. In the US they should perform the same from 100vac to 130vac with no perceptible change.
When engineers design to minimums it's generally for price economy. Shouldn't exist in a premium product, sorry.
Why not install whatever is in the AC regenerator into the device instead of ripping people off for something that can easily be incorporated.
I agree with Paul. Power plants do a great job of cleaning the garbage we get with our power. I myself just can’t afford them. Most are over $1000 dollars. I understand why they are expensive. Just can’t afford them.
Snake oil alert?
Personal incredulity is often the reason some people turn their noses up at them. So does bitter envy at those who have them as part of their systems.
What about the evidence of power plants doing nothing to the sound?
@@ryanamendt8363 They will do nothing to the sound if the rest of the components aren't highly resolving. Items like these aren't something to consider until you've got everything else in order. No point otherwise.
@@mrpositronia Wrong. Simply measuring the output of a dac or amp when using a powerplant shows there is no difference to the signal.
@@ryanamendt8363 Ah, I see. So every piece of equipment made by these companies are useless and they are conning us all. Okay. By the way, how do you measure each of dynamics, soundstage, instrument separation and depth, without listening? And how do you tell all those who have found that they have improved their systems that they are wrong, even though they know exactly what the improvements are? If we all just bought the best measuring components, we'd be denying ourselves the varied sound characteristics of all the different products out there. There are many products that don't measure perfectly that sound fantastic.
@@mrpositronia You confuse many issues. Powerplants do nothing: the signal exiting your amp is the same with or without them. Soundstage and separation are contained within the signal. None of the people who claim to hear a difference have done a blind test.
PAUL,RESPECTFULLY , SOME OF YOUR ASSERTIONS YOU MAKE ARE COMPLETELY INCORRECT REGARDING BEST DEVELOPED POWER FOR AUDIO. I HAVE EQUIPMENT AND MEASUREMENTS AND THE AUDIBLE RESULTS THAT WILL RESPECTFULLY DISPROVE SOME OF YOUR INCORRECT ASSERTIONS. THE RECORD SHOULD BE SET STRAIGHT. DO NOT GET ME WRONG THERE MAY BE A PLACE FOR VIRTUALLY EVERY PRODUCT BUT I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE OF BOTH INVENTION AND DESIGN AND IMPLEMENTATIONS THAT THE RECORD SHOULD REFLECT THE FACTS. I WELCOME A HONEST DISCUSSION ON FACTS AS I HAVE COMPARATIVELY TESTED BOTH AUDIBLY AND THROUGH MEASUREMENTS AND ITS ABUNDANTLY CLEAR AND UNCONTESTED THAT BEST DESIGN OF BOTH POWER AND CIRCUITS AND IMPLEMENTATIONS CORRELATE DIRECTLY WITH BEST AUDIBLE EXPERIENCE AND LOWEST DISTORTIONS PERFORMANCE.
Explains what one hears: more powerful sound with greater dynamics, but only if the power plant is oversized compared to the equipment that's connected to it. I remember borrowing a P15 from a dealer for the wrong reason: hum due to DC on the wall AC. The regenerator didn't really remedy that, but the IsoTek DC blocker I also borrowed didn't quite do that either. The main difference was that the DC blocker dynamically compressed the sound, made it thin and metallic, whereas the regenerator improved it in several and unexpected ways (macro and micro dynamics, tonality, soundstage). A regenerator is not going to reduce noise or "solve problems" whatever they may be - in order to get rid of the hum, I had to hire an electrician who put in a dedicated power line from the breaker box to the listening room.
Nenhum equipamento fornece menor impedância que a própria tomada da parede!!! Eu não jogo dinheiro fora pra comprar algo inútil, mas se tem quem compre, beleza.
Power plants are a good way of protecting your equipment from power surges .... I'll grant them that .... They could be helpful in maintaining line voltage in 110 vac countries where typical line currents are TWICE those of 240 vac countries. As far as power transformer ratings and source impedance are concerned .... if the transformer has a rating based on the amplifier's rms power output and it has an enormous battery bank with super low ESR.... there's no need for a power generator ... all what a power generator does can be incorporated in the power amplifier ... UNLESS the mains supply is of very poor quality and suffers from extremely bad regulation and hence source impedance ....
Because I already have one amplifier. I don't need another. Think about the power consumption just to keep your gear on. I thought Paul was a "green" guy. Whatever pays the bills, right?
lF your engineers do their job correctly when designing an audio power amp (including it's internal power supply), it will stand alone as a pillar of greatness. Want your eyes opened? Just read a book by G. Randy Slone on power amp design and construction. You'll be shocked (Shocked I tell you!) that he advocates a relatively unregulated power supply for many very good reasons. Your wife or girlfriend will faint and need to be revived by this revelation, I know.....
However, it would be glorious to have a PP AC regenerator with a large battery connected to its internal DC buss. Why? Because beyond anything else, the source of power from your local utility company is subject to dips and surges. Your home appliances or your neighbors appliances contribute to the cacophony of power troubles. And these routine anomalies are the things that wreak havoc on all your beautiful, expensive hardwire and wires.
So folks, add the battery and call it a UPS Power Plant. Everyone, absolutely everyone can get behind this form of protection/improvement and you'll suddenly sell a lot more of these things.
I can't speak for anyone else but for me it's the cost. Not too long ago you had one of your smaller units on sale and I was going to buy one. But when I called PS Audio and spoke to a knowledgeable sales/tech person I realized that my array of 4 large monoblock vintage tube amps were going to need 2 of the units that were on sale then I'd need at least one or two more for my other gear. So for me it was simply a matter of cost. It makes total sense to me that having quality regulated power going to my gear will improve the sound. I just need to save up more money and convince myself that I should buy power supplies and not try new speakers. Well that might never happen but we'll see.
Unless your electricity supply is quite bad you would be far better off getting new speakers instead. Three or four power supplies is overkill it would cost so much that the marginal gains wouldn't make it cost effective. With better equipment it's more likely the manufacturer has already paid attention to the components power supply so your setup could already have well filtered power.
Because they cannot water them😂😂😂
By your own admission how is it going to help something with a small transformer ? What you just said doesn't even make sense :D LOL
power plant its over price usp
Do you ever change your clothes?
Some people are disappointed by their Power Plants because they don't wait for burn-in to take effect . basically having to wait 2 weeks powered on at a minimum 'before' you start listening to it for changes. I basiically e-mailed PS Audio customer support asking why I heard no difference with my P3. They said it needs 350 hours of burn-in. And then after waiting, the difference will be there. I will say the quality difference and realism improvement is rather dramatic. Larger regenerators than the P3 may require more burn in time than 2 weeks.
I my opinion a product you buy shouldn't need to "burn in". It should have been done at the factory
Good Lord, the stupid things one has to read...
@ZeusTheTornado What's the issue? burn-in when done can make a rather significant difference. A very obvious difference in the least, A/C Regenerators are amplifiers after all, so they need burn-in just the same.
To be honest, this is my first component that has actual night and day differences for the audio, next to a DAC
I don't know why this audiophile "burn-in" phenomena is so hard to understand? Did you ever paint a room or buy furniture, carpet, and didn't like how it looked in your room? You never heard the old saying "let it grow on you"? Then a week or two later it looks much better? What makes people think this doesn't happen with hearing as well? Speakers break in. I would agree some turntable tone arms might as well. But solid state electronics - hogwash! There is a small warm up time where parameters can change in analog circuits but after 10-15 minutes, that is done. And with pure digital gear - no way! You are simply getting used to a different sound profile. Note I didn't say "quality" Because not every change is in a positive direction to spite what your brain may tell you. And cost is certainly no guaranteed measure of true quality. They do often go hand-in-hand though. And that what these audiophile charlatans base their business model on.
A factor in the perception of the efficacy of power regenerators is the quality of the power coming out of the wall. If the power is highly regulated and not subject to high fluctuations in voltage due to demand, then a regenerator is not going to do much. But if the power is more variable a regenerator makes a huge difference. I currently have a P20, wouldn't be without it and can attest that it replaced a P10, so I am biased. I can also tell you that I live in South Florida where we have high fluctuations in demand due to AC loads and high population density. In this environment having a regulated AC regenerator is a no brainer.
First
Good for you 🙄
No one cares you were first, which rather than making you a winner makes you a loser. (The first loser granted)
Or they simply can’t afford one. So they draw a preconceived negative opinion.🥂
Humans do that all the time about everything. To me having a Lambo even If I could afford it seems ridiculous but If I actually could afford it I might have a different take.
@fade...I couldn't have said that better. They do draw preconceived negative opinions about stuff they cannot afford. Labeling it snake oil under the guise of deeply caring that other people don't get taken, when what they really want is to stir up some trouble, feel like a genius, (real geniuses need to examine it and put it through it's paces). and they try to put a hurt on sales of pricey manufacturers that they think charge too much. I think a lot of companies charge too much too, but I don't do all that. I simply don't buy their product; and I don't pretend I know if it's really not worthwhile. They're out there!
Buy a 150K BMW then endlessly whine and cry on the internet it spends much of the time in the repair shop. 😀
The one that bought the Honda Civic keeps passing your 150K BMW on the back of the tow truck. 😀👍😎
Those that buy equally expensive audio gear spend most of their time on the internet whining and crying constantly about the music industry and how their expensive systems sound like crap 😂😂😂😂😂😂playing most of the music available today. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
The one that bought the Beats headphones listening to music on their phone you don’t see spending their days on the internet whining and crying.
Is David pretending that cheap stuff is just as good or better than expensive stuff. That it's built better and more dependable? Sounds like some kind of self therapy. Most audiophiles buy intelligently. I know I do thorough research first.
I have found a few things that I believe are cheap and the best..One is a brand of cola, one is a brand of ketchup, and one is a brand of peanut butter (I love the same famous grilled peanut butter/jelly/ bacon and banana sandwich that Elvis liked). "Thank ya. Thank ya very much. That's the most applause I've gotten all day".
The "all measurements, no listening" crowd is a perfect illustration of this. It's about money and they can't admit it. "This cheap piece of gear measures better than this other really expensive piece, so let me do you a favor and save you some money." Very much akin to "all you need is a bike to get from point A to point B, why even buy the motorcycle? And, by the way, the bike measures much better... on gas mileage and emissions and noise, so only an idiot would buy the motorcycle!" It all comes down to money. If the cost of the power plant wouldn't amount to a drop in the bucket, to someone truly wealthy, the argument against it falls apart. It's a value assessment by people who shouldn't (financially) be buying one.
Would you be willing to submit your Power Plants to a double blind study?
Just do one. He doesn't have to submit it. Why all the people asking for double blind studies afraid to actually do double blind studies?
@@Pete.across.the.street
Because they fear the results.
Hmmmm .... lots of "subjective" vs "objective" stuff going on here... Guys, you should be helping each other instead of bashing away on each other's doors.
I come from the Objective side of things. I work with test equipment, room analysers and all that stuff on a regular basis. But I also know there are shortcomings in the published specs for a lot of this gear in that they are not reporting ALL of their findings, often choosing to leave out the bad news. So, when I sell or work on a piece of gear, I will also spend a few minutes listening to it to be sure it's sounding okay before letting it back out into the wild. Yes, this is an objectivist telling you that listening tests do matter.
But there is equal reason for concern about those who only listen and even actively eschew the objective reports. That is, your ears can and do play tricks on you...
Here's a simple example:
Sit in a quiet room, just relax and listen to the background noises for a minute or two to get a sense of what the room sounds like.
Now, take your fingers and gently pull your ears back and up just a little bit.
You will hear the sound change ...
Now relax again but this time focus in on one sound, anything you choose,
Also pay attention also to the overall sound of the room.
You will hear it change ... in a manner not unlike the first time.
This is a base hearing reflex called "Pricking up your ears" and we all do it when we listen closely or focus our attention. It's actually a reflex action that most of us don't even realize we are doing.
Asking myself "Why" I was hearing these changes lead me to understand that it is our focus that triggers the reflex that slightly alters the sound... and, if we're testing a new cable or a piece of gear, it is a very natural mistake to attribute what we hear to the new thing, rather than a change in focus and attention coupled with a reflexive action in our hearing.
Then, once we relax and begin to listen casually again, the difference is gone.
So, pure subjectivity is flawed in some very expensive ways. But that does not mean it is meaningless or useless... when tempered with a bit of technical understanding that listening test can be a valuable asset in both sales and repair work.
The ideal is a mix of both subjective and objective methods, where both are of equal importance ... Maybe it's time to think about ending this stupid debate.
I can think of $10,000 reasons not to get a power regenerator! Think of the many speaker options you could have instead
Wonder how many utube critics have actually tried the product or are just a waste of time spouting negative conjectures. A few.
So we are not allowed to share out opinion? A power plant isnt for everybody, its either hit or miss
Now that I have invested in good equipment, everything sounds better when it’s NOT plugged into my P 300
Bloody hell, the audiophiles are having a field day bashing everyone that don't see the point in a power plant.
Live and let live ppl. Ppl have bills to pay and not waste thousands of £ on esoteric stuff. Chill out dudes and dudettes.😂