"I don't fit by handicap" - My famous phrase and this video is one of many demonstrating why I believe that. What did you all think of the forgiveness testing?
I'm so glad you've proven this. I'm off 18 and some channels on youtube in the comments section they laugh at me for using Mizuno 221's. I hit them the same as any other club.
@@epgolfstudios eye opening. One thing I would like is to test the new Cleveland Halo XL full face irons. This is one subject I have been thinking about: the effect of extending the grooves on the face on forgiveness. In various forums I have enquired apparently it doesn't matter much. But a test could just put the discussion to rest.
@epgolfstudios , I like your forgiveness testing. I'd would have liked you to sum up your conclusion, at the end. There are so many variables, eg different swing speeds 65 / 70 / 75 / 80, and while exhaustive testing would be frankly exhausting... maybe the hot metal would work better at 65?? Maybe the hot metal works better with a senior shaft? Maybe the hot metal, with a fatter sole, protects more against fats? I am hoping that your experience would inform us beyond the base data. That is, would you recommend a 70mph swing speed should try the blades first and ensure they are looking at SD over max distance?
Firstly I’d never really recommend anyone play blades tbh, this test is more for extreme testing. The reality is swing speed will make virtually no difference to the forgiveness element, and generally speaking the slower you swing it the more loft you want. So at a slower speed I certainly wouldn’t recommend the hot metal pro as really is the basis of this video, slow speed and strong lofts don’t mix well. Shafts make virtually no difference to launch and spin so shafts wouldn’t come into my thought process when trying to find the right flight characteristics for a player. So I do get your points but the reality is there would be zero difference in testing at different speeds with different shafts, so it’s a bit pointless in all honesty. In terms of strictly performance speed does come into it but how you deliver the club is more important, so I can’t guide anyone when it comes to that because I have no idea how you deliver the club, swing speed is only a very small part of the equation. The reality is these videos are guides and things to be aware of, if you want what suits you best there is only one way of finding that out and that’s going and getting fitted properly and in depth testing 👌👍
Thanks for the mention, a lot of work goes into creating Forgiveness based testing and all the editing of the graphics required to illustrate how a club realistically performs from off centre hits. I'm glad that viewers of this channel and my own AskGolfNut channel enjoy watching multiple swing speed forgiveness tests 👍
As a slower swing speed golfer this is a very welcome video. Loved all the data and I'd enjoy more of these to help those of us who swing slow to evaluated shafts, drivers, hybrids, etc. Thank you very much.
This has made me feel so much better knowing that I seem to be carrying distances I “should” be based on my slow swing speed. It also gives me freedom of choices that I do not have to go with game improvement irons based on swing speed.
This is gold for me Ross as it you're on my exact mark for slow swing speeds. The data suggests that forgiveness is marginal and so in my mind, I just need to find the right clubs for me that I'd be confident hitting. Thank you so much for this video - really gives me the data to compare my exact game (8.2H) and see how a good player hitting these clubs slowly, measures up.
Great stuff Dave, remember swing speed is still only a small part of the equation when weighing up the right fit. So still get fitted would say unless you are very familiar with how you deliver the club. But at that speed I would always recommend more loft. Less loft is generally terrible unless you have a very scoopy delivery
That wasn't the point of this test, but you're absolutely right it is a better head for slower swing speeds. We have done a full review and test of the whole JPX 925 line up 👍
Thanks for another great video! Just about perfect with my swing speed with a 7 iron...my 7 iron is an old blade 35 degrees of loft...same carry distance 130ish depending on the strike. I have been thinking of players distance iron but ca't get over the large head after playing blades most of my golfing life. The 245 looks like a good option to add to my list of irons when I get fit.
Thanks - just about to swap my Rogue ST Pros for Apex CB/MB combo and you've just reinforced by decision (although I'm strengthening them a couple of degrees). Looking forward to getting back to blades and the challenge that comes with it!
Thank you for the test. I have a set of Mizuno MP59’s that I used when I played a lot more often. After a long break from golf I tried GI cavity back irons. Terrific ball speed, but way too much height and yardage gaps were terrible. Bunched up in the longer clubs and too far apart below 7 iron. I tried the Mizunos and hit the 7 iron just as far even though it was six degrees weaker. Ball flight was a lot more ideal. I’m looking to upgrading to the MP243’s to get better gaps in the longer clubs and couldn’t shake the idea of giving up forgiveness. I’ll prioritize ball flight and gaps. This test validates my experience that “players” irons aren’t that unforgiving.
Absolutely agree with all of that Jason. Again it just comes down to playing what suits you best. But you make great points about the gapping. I feel GI irons are terrible for this
Pretty much the same with me. I’ve got a set of even older MP57’s and decided will treat myself to a new set next time I break 80, but started doing my research and realised most of the irons are just 1-2 clubs stronger, so would probably need to reconfigure my wedges, so not sure now. The current plan is to see what the specs of the 925 tours are when they come out in the New Year.
What a great video Ross! I’m not sure if you’ve done it already, but perhaps a video idea could be to do the same test comparing 10 year old irons with their modern equivalent…maybe I’ll just do that video myself, and you can do it better 🤣👍
Great video Ross. I think a bad swing is a bad swing. Poor delivery is going to end up with a poor result regardless of the club. Getting fitted for a club that suits your swing is going to give best results in the long run.
Thanks Nic! And yeah absolutely agree. A lot of people let the marketing get in their head, hit a couple of bad shots and write it off as being too unforgiving, when really this isn't the case when you really look at the data. And yeah completely mate. Getting fitted properly is the way forward for every golfer 🙌👌
Man I love your videos!! Just chalk full of useful information! One question though, if the only thing that really matters is loft then please compare loft vs loft in game improvement irons 9 iron vs blades 7 iron so we can see the difference. Absolutely love your videos!
@@epgolfstudios Really looking forward to this, would love to see 5 iron 241 vs. an equivalent 7 in game improvement. If you felt like mixing up brands seeing a Wilson Staff model blade vs. an equivalent 7 would be great too.
I think the point is you can hit the hot metal further with the same shaft length. You still get decent height . The reason the clubs are forgiving is that it’s easier to hit a club with a shorter shaft. So a high handicapper plays better with game improvement clubs because they are using shorter shafts to get longer distances. They are more likely to hit the green with a 7 iron hot metal than a 5 or 6 iron blade.
Subbed mate. I’ve been gaming Ping G400 which got me to 15 (from beginning) but not sure if want a blade-like set. They do look much nicer though, wish you were in Australia
So really my thoughts of changing from T150 to 245 pro on the idea the drop off on mis-hits would be less are unfounded & it is all down to my crap swing (and the inability to find a coach who can fix it)!
@@epgolfstudiosFantastic idea guys. “The other side of the coin” with carry distance fixed rather than the outcome you’ll show us how the tech “does” to o get you there and what lofts and flight characteristics each club does. Perhaps fittings should be done like that. Find a “reasonable/optimal” distance and then change clubs and specs to hit it and choose the best flight/forgiveness rate for it. That I’ve never seen before you’ll be breaking ground mate
Absolutely agree mate. Does get my mind wandering that does. Would love to be able to offer a fitting service like that. Almost fit individually for each club to a certain extent regardless of what it is. It's all about the performance and the outcome. I try and do it the best I can at the moment but the unfortunate reality is we just don't have the money to do that, we can't afford to. If I did that I'd go out of business at the moment without question. Unless I put my fitting fees up a lot but most wouldn't understand why or be willing to pay it. So as we grow and the brand grows I will have more opportunities to grow and evolve the business. But it's been a hard lesson these past few years of starting and running this business. It's extremely tough to do it at the base level and make any sort of money at all. We still dont make much money. So start talking about spending another 50k on fitting equipment and you quickly find yourself in a very bad spot.
I’ve just switched from Darkspeed to Dynapower forged and the difference in ball flight and descent angle is night and day. And the feel wow. Can actually tell where on the face I’ve hit it 😂😂
@ distance isn't the issue for me. You have to look at loft rather than the number on the club imo. A 27 degree 7 iron isnt really a 7 iron. My 7 went 175 but came in like a piss missile. My 7 (31.5) now comes in at a much better angle but about 165. Front to back is much better, stopping power is much better, gapping is better. I have 3-5 degrees difference by club in my bag top to bottom and I've gained so much more consistency. The dark speed would go 160 or 190 without me even knowing why 😂😂😂
Great content! Loved seeing the miss hits and how they were affected. I’ve watched countless videos of iron fittings and comparison videos but this is the first time I’ve seen someone show the miss hits and quantify them. It is very interesting to see they are all basically the same in forgiveness from a front to back perspective. I know you said you are not a robot and that’s why it’s harder to tell the left to right dispersion. But do you think there’s any significant difference in these three from left to right forgiveness?
For me it’s the hand sting factor that many of us struggle with, thin a blade and your hand fizzes for 5 minutes whereas a hollow body or GI feels less harsh and allows you to carry on. So my takeaway is peak height and land angle should dictate your iron choice?
Yeah that is actually one of the most reasonable points that's been made on any of these types of videos 👍 the 'feedback' through a blade would certainly be harsher. And yes absolutely right. You need to get the right loft to ensure the best ball flight, best land angle, and best distance all while maintaining proper gapping throughout the set. That is always the goal.
Great show Ross, I'm off to see Alex at orka this week for a fitting nice to have this information beforehand to for that better experience, and your better than a robot, keep them coming mate.
Very interesting results I can't use game improvement just can't control distance out of interest ho would this compare once you get into the realy lower lofts for slow swing speeds I'm not a slow swing player just interested that all
Yeah you just wouldn't. Even if someone at a slower swing speed wanted to play those sort of irons I'd say probably stop a 7 iron. Maybe 6 iron at a real push. Ball flight would just get so low that at a certain point you'd actually start to lose distance. Like your 6 iron would actually be going further than the 5 because they just wouldn't be able to get enough height to get the correct carry. And the ball flight would just be so low you'd never stop it on a green. So hybrids or fairways instead of long irons would be the way forward. But personally I'd never recommend a slow swing speed to play strong lofted irons, unless they added a lot of loft at impact.
I’m a 15 handicap with 81 MPH 7 iron and a bit of a nut when it comes to trying different iron sets. I have used them all. By far my keeper set is a set of old Mizuno MP-30 half cavity MB blade. With those in hand I pure more shots and have better scores than with any other set. I lose about a club length compared to players distance but that’s okay. And the feel is phenomenal. I’ve given up on trying to find a better iron, once I bend the 5 iron a degree stronger they will be perfect in gapping 5-PW.
Really great video and very eye opening. However, I would have liked to have seen a sort of "conclusion" piece where using the data you gathered produced an average percentage of drop off from each club on each strike pattern. for exampled: " there was an average with the 241 of x% drop off when hit out of the toe compared to out of the centre". something like that really would show how merky or clear cut the results are.
I love when people say . “Unless you’re pro you’re not good enough to play blades” really depending on delivery blades can be more forgiving because of a narrow sole for some players. Try it all play what works for you.
Id love to see him just testing 5 diffrent 7 irons that have various lofts like QI10 HL, QI10, Dynapowers, and then toss in some wildcard like an Inesis.
I recently bought some Apex CB Irons I am way more accurate with them and the front to back dispersion is so much better than with anything else I have used in my 20 years golfing. When I miss the middle I can feel where the miss is and I come up short but not severely so. I play off around 10 and swing Driver around 95 mph.
That's great, seems like you've found a good set of irons for you 🙌 and yeah most people are surprised about the 'forgiveness' that you get even out of a more players type of iron. And I agree front to back will always be better on a more traditional iron loft and design 💣
Great idea for a video, and excellent execution. Really makes me think about marketing vs real world data. As a relatively new 21 H.I. golfer, I like the idea of a better ball flight & descent to stick the greens and don't mind giving up some distance but was concerned about the "forgiveness". What is clear to me from this test - and my own observation as my swing and strike improve - is that "forgiveness" is mostly a marketing term, and getting good instruction and improving delivery are the most important. So maybe my next clubs will be blades or CBs!
Don't be too quick to judge that. AskGolfNut does some great testing, including heat maps. No question a lot of "player's distance" clubs aren't that forgiving but there are clubs out there that are WAY more forgiving than blades. The big takeaway of this test is that you don't want strong lofts if you have a slow swing speed.
Great video, I like how you present and go into those details.. just some advice: when comparing the drop off, I think you shouldn't compare absolute yardage between the clubs, but go by percentage.. those lofts are a bit too different to compare absolute yardage.. still, definitely worth a subscription ;)
Thanks appreciate the sub 🙌👍 well I was just comparing the yardage drop off relative to the best shot that we hit with each club. Which I think is a fair way to do it. But either way it doesn't really matter. The moral of the story is there is pretty much nothing in it 😂👌
awesome video well done i am looking for new irons I had stealths with regular ventus red graphite shafts and loved them but after 400 rounds in 3 seasons I am ready for some new irons i am about to be 60 years old 5'6 and handicap of 8-10 and trying to choose between Taylormade Qi10 / HL or PXG Black Ops or Cobra Darkspeed irons i am lookin for feel / distance / forgiveness / spin / height your thoughts ? which shaft you think might work KBS Max 65 / Tensei Blue / UST Nanacore 60 or is there another you like ? I am unable to get fitted or go hit any balls I pretty much have my stats of 78-82 mph on my 7 irons swing speed Lie 1 degree up length 37 inches driver is 90-94 mph I am open to all advice and thoughts thx in advance cheers from Canada
Really interesting video for me. I've been playing the Miz 923s all year and have been improving my striking a lot. I'd love to see something like this on front to back dispersion between them. (I feel like I'm getting fliers and duds with the 923s sometimes)
It still matters. Carry v carry will show a bigger difference on mishits. The higher lofted club will be less affected, so that is a variable you need to remove. If i am playing a 140 yard hole, i dont care what the number on the iron is. So for the 140 yard carry, which club will give me the most forgiveness? The game improvement 8 iron or the blade 7 iton? Thats what matters.
I would have liked to see an overlay of dispersion between the clubs for toe and heal strikes. I know you are not a robot, but it might show and could be the difference between the clubs.
Dispersion is still all down to me dude. The toe and heel strikes with every model went straight when I delivered a square face. Honestly there would be zero difference between these clubs in dispersion on mishits. That’s 100% player 🤙
@@epgolfstudios Okay dude, but I am a high handicapper as probably most of the people watching this video are. Your video has the word "Truth" in it. It is hardly the truth if you don't cover dispersion, the most important part of a forgiveness iron. Like all high handicappers I mis hit too much and want to know the "Truth", "how much are they likely to help me", in other words how forgiving are they. Yardage loss is the lesser part of the equation, I think we can all guess we would lose some yardage from toe and heal strikes. Dispersion is the biggest part and the main reason for buying forgiveness irons and not possible to guess. Please take the word "Truth" out of the title or add the word "Distance". This video has nothing to do with forgiveness irons main purpose which is dispersion.
I changed from Mizuno 919s to TM P7MCs and honestly wouldn't look back. I think as this video shows, a bad shot is a bad shot regardless of the club. Maybe there's a couple mm of more functional shots in the middle of the face but for me, my poor shots with the player's distance clubs still came up short, but my good strikes were prone to the odd ball coming off like a rocket and leaving me dead behind the green. The blades have had a way tighter dispersion and the more immediate feel helps me self-diagnose on the fly if I'm striking it away from the middle.
Great video as always! Around 85mph with a 7 iron, and 105 with driver would be a good speed for me to watch 🤭👍🏻 Will come for a fitting in the new year when all the new stuff is in
Hi, great content! Thumbs up and one more subscriber. I´ve been to a fitting but without any good results for me. As I’m trying to improve my game with lessons and training two times a week, I would like to get some new irons for Christmas. Would you recommend a Mizuno Pro 245 / Ping I 530 / Titleist T 200 for a 40 year old, 25 HC, 70 mph swing speed golfer? I do know what shaft I prefer, but I´m not certain what clubhead would help me the most for the next couple of years. Due to my slow swing speed, I´m struggling with an acceptable descent angle. As I understand your content, a game improvement iron would not be the best choice, and there is more control of the golf ball?
Hey Philipp, brilliant many thanks for the support. And the honest answer is I don't know. It really comes down to how you deliver the club into impact, this is actually far more important than your swing speed and you'd handicap. But if you struggle with stopping the ball on the green then I would say go to an iron with more loft. An iron that I love for slower speeds is the P770. Looks and feels great, launches well and spins well. As forgiving as anything else out there and doesn't feel too bad on the mishits either. So definitely try that 👍
Most people don't have your swing speed, but most also have more than 70 mph used in this test. I feel this test would have had more relevance to the most golfers with 80 mph as the test speed. If you are at 70 mph, I would not recommend any of the heads in this test, but instead the Cleveland Halo XL or similar from other brands.
Yeah I've done plenty at my swing speed and quite a lot at 80/75 so decided to make more of a point and do it at a slow speed. It doesn't really matter too much because delivery is always more important than swing speed but it does the same thing, just opens people's eyes and gets them thinking a little bit more about what irons they maybe should be looking at, or at least get them to think about getting a fitting. I'm never telling people what they should be buying as it's impossible, it's just getting people to think differently and not be confused by marketing. But yeah absolutely they would be good for slower speed that needs help with launch. Id almost call them more hybrids than irons 😂 but definitely would give that sort of player good numbers.
I have a set of taylormade firesole irons... and my concern is that if I were to buy new clubs, they wouldn't be appreciably better than what I already have. Weights in the sole... perimeter weighting... so much of the tech seems like they are just repackaging the same tech from 20 years ago.
Just my opinion, i would have been more interested in seeing the data and dispersions if the lofts were matched across the irons. I’m aware this may have meant a 9 iron in the GI and an 8 in the blade.
This will be coming soon 👍 but in a fair test of forgiveness having different shaft lengths and different head weights would be less fair IMO. And dispersion is like 98% player in my honest opinion
I Love what you do (and am a subscriber) BUT in this case I am not sure you are representing forgiveness for a slow swing mid or high hcp golfer. To me most important is do I know my carry distance and do i hit that pretty consistently. Overall distance is of lesser important. So, if I have 140 yds to the flag (assuming no wind, no slope) that’s my 7 iron. So, if I have a blade, perhaps it’s a 6 iron but the question is how consistently do I hit that blade 6 iron vs my players distance iron 7 (as a mid hcp 67 yr old) i.e. do i hit the blade poorly more frequently than my players distance iron so suffer the drop-offs more? You can’t replicate that because you are a good golfer who is so good he can also swing at 70mph. But, if I was in the UK and could come to you for a fitting, I am sure you would help me select the right clubs for me be it blade, distance or game improvement. MY CONCLUSION: it’s not about the type of club but rather being fit for the club which best suits the swing and playing conditions. Unfortunately, i don’t have an EP near me!😊
I dont mean to be too critical, your content is top shelf. But a better comparison for forgiveness would be distance v distance, not 7i v 7i. If the swing speed is held constant, who cares what 7i (a) does vs 7i (b). The question is, for the 80 mph swing speed 7i, what would the equivalent 8i speed be, and then compare forgiveness numbers. I would expect a club with less loft to be less forgiving, all else being equal. This way, you could evaluate on percentages, not raw yardage, which again, adds variables.
Maybe later on down the line but in all my equipment tests I always do this (test heel and toe for drop off) so even at 80-90 mph it would be the same thing i.e the drop off between models would be virtually the same
Absolutely, although to give my opinion on that, you can't shank a driver but you can shank an iron 😂 20mm+ on a heel strike with an iron is a shank. You can hit it off the face on a toe strike and it still goes somewhat forward. But yes absolutely right the toe on woods is very good and the heel is horrific. That certainly doesn't seem as bad on irons for sure.
I did this test on my Bushnell Launch Pro with a Mizuno Blade, PXG Players, and Ping G400 at the same loft. Results are almost identical with each for me. Forgiveness is a myth. Shank is a shank. Play what you love. The biggest difference I find is blades have tighter dispersion on identical swings where fatter clubs had more variance.
Well I think you mention loft there and that really is the biggest part of getting an iron set that fits you correctly. Making sure the lofts throughout the iron set optimize, height, descent angle, and distance while maintaining proper gapping. That's the one issue with game improvement irons. For most people they only tick the distance box. And for some they don't even do that.
@@epgolfstudios well said. I recently swapped up Miura KM-700 and have been enjoying the more traditional loft. Just need to get over my ego that my 33 degree 7i isn’t going to go as far as my 28.5 degree 7i used to.
@@mcnillerandsons7906 yeah for some it can be a hard pill to swallow but best way is just to write down the yardages and then figure out the club that gives you the best ball flight for that yardage. Doesn't matter if it says 7 on it or 5 on it or if it's a hybrid or fairway wood. Just play what gives you overall the best performance 👌👍
@@epgolfstudioscould not agree more. That’s why it’s silly to ask another golfer what club they just hit, because you don’t know their lofts or distance they hit each club. Know your carry and play your game. Your competition is not the other players unless it’s Match Play, otherwise, it’s the course. Cheers.
Great job mate although I must admit I like the look of a thicker top line.....I don't think you would enjoy my Callaway big Bertha's from 94😂 nice to see a test with the older classics though against the latest and greatest.
Thanks Raymond 👍 and yeah I think you might be right there 😅 although saying that people say about how much clubs have come on....I think some testing is in order 👀👀
Great video. I play traditional lofted cavity backs and have weakened them by 2⁰ to achieve height and descent I want. Swing speed with 7 low 80s. Did not lose any distance. I see too many with slower swings coming out of box stores with these strong lofted irons.
On this topic, why do you think so many Titleist players go with the 620MB or versions of it in the 6-9 irons, rather than the T100? Quite a consistent trend among top titleist players, Ludvig being an exception
Kind of wild. I know the sample size wasn't huge but it seems the blade and the player's distance are very comparable in forgiveness. Both lose around 15% carry off a toe strike and around 10% off the heel. The super GI seems to be around 10% of the toe and around 7% off the heel. I also think in a real scenario on the course, a lot of less experienced players will struggle with bottom point control and early release, so you'll see a lot of shots that bottom out before the ball resulting in fats and thins. The wider soles on the SGI irons should also help with fat shots, by gliding along the turf more rather than digging in
Love your videos. I’m torn between the t200s and the t350s. Just got into golf this year and have a 34 handicap. Your videos really break these down for me. Thank you
Diversification is a prerequisite for marketing. And marketing is a prerequisite for sales. GI, SGI, UGI irons can’t overturned the fact that the ball has the same diameter, as the clubhead has the same sweet spot size. Of course, there could be variations on MOI that could add some help with the outcome of a non perfect shot, but marginally. From my point of view, first priority is to play an iron you enjoy staring at it, and feeling it’s impact. This encourages the chain reaction you need to play good golf (shot planning -attention - execution)
Good way of putting it 👍 and yes I do agree but for me the best places to start is the right lofted set (through the whole set) to optimise both distance and control for the way you deliver the club
The feel of the iron is my big deal. If the 245 feels better than the hot metal, which I would imagine is true, I’d go with the 245. The 241 might hurt the hands in mis-hits. I’m actually looking at the 245 for my new clubs. Still hitting JPX 900 Forged set and still like-’em!
Can you help me understand why you wouldn’t test the different irons from the same distance? Ignore the number stamped on the club and hit whatever goes 130 yards - then see which club performs best. In thus test, you were 12 yards further with the game improvement than the blade. That’s like saying a 7 iron has better height and descent than a 6 iron. I wouldn’t hit a game improvement 7 iron from 130 yards. I would hit an 8 iron. How would the game improvement 8 iron compare to the blade 7 iron? Would that not be the more meaningful test?
It will be interesting when Bryson starts selling his irons with roll and bulge, not dissimilar to the Eleven hybrids which already have that assistance.
Yeah I think with his speed it may make a bit of a tangible difference. I'm not sure for most amateurs especially slower seeing speed. Will be interesting to see if we could quantify if it actually does anything for average golfers.
A few variables that this test ignores. 1. Turf interaction. More forgiving clubs have wider soles and more bounce help with digging. Hitting off artificial turf minimizes penalty for fat strikes. 2. Squaring the face. As you move towards game-improvement, there’s going to be more help with internal weighting to get the club squared and turning over thru the ball. High index players struggle with squaring up. 3. Hot spots. I can’t explain how this happens because it seems random, but you can get these wild hot strikes on game improvement irons that go miles past your normal range.
Can’t really test turf interaction indoors. In all honesty it would be extremely hard to test outdoors! I think the honest reality of that how much difference would it actually make to the vast majority of golfers? Not much at all. For a very small percentage it might a little bit. But from what I’ve tested and seen i really don’t think it matters that much. Yeah squaring the face is slightly easier, I do mention this in the data section. But again for the vast majority of golfers it’s a very marginal thing. There’s definitely no hot spots. That’s just golfers inconsistent strike and delivery, with a few other variables chucked in there such as moisture, grass, dirt, anything that create less friction between club and ball. It will happen with every club but one thing I will say is when you start at a point of already low spin, like you would with a GI iron, the spin will drop very low which will create greater distance jumps when all of those variables align. Just another reason front to back on a GI iron is worse.
So if the game improvement irons aren't great for slower swing speeds, who are they for? It seems that more speed is needed to handle the strong lofts...but if you had more speed they would travel too far and cause issues at the bottom end of the bag? Does anyone actually benefit from these strong lofts in a real world scenario?
Excellent Q mate. Ive just come out of a fitting and the guys made this exact point. The HM and HMP didn’t suit me because at 80mph 7i swing speed it’s not functional. So for normal speed it’s more like the HL or the 245’s or you have to bend the HMP weak a lot (not ideal). So to your point these are puzzling market things
So really it's a very small amount of people. Like mid swing speed who scoop it basically. You're right they are no good for fast swing speeds or really slow swing speeds. So yeah like slow'ish' and mid speed players who deliver a lot of loft at impact.
No idea who Jay is. My statement absolutely could be full of shit, but it sounds good 😂 I just haven't seen anyone else do the format that I do and how I do it
I've tried GI irons and they didn't work for me at all much prefer my Srixon 785's. Toe strikes always have a bigger drop off than heel unless you hit an unmentionable.
785s are great irons! And yeah absolutely but only in irons. In woods toe strikes are so much better. And to be fair with a toe strike you can miss the face and it still goes forward but if you do that off the heel it's a shank 😅
I learned on blades and have played them with good results. I think it's a cork sniffer thing. Like only the best of the best should use the best looking clubs and us mere amateurs have been told to fear them. Sounds ridiculous but it's not far off. I've never picked up a golf club or any other sporting equipment and every felt fear. SMH
You cannot defy physics. Also, it is not really a "blade", but a muscle back. It has weight distributed a little bit to give some "forgiveness". "Real" blades are the old hickory irons, that really are a plain sheet of metal. Anyway, I highly appreciate you doing this video! Atm I am trying to figure out what this whole "forgiveness" and "game improvement" stuff actually does. Most videos really are good golfers hitting the middle at high speeds which does not say a lot. Cheers for doing this!
Agree you can't defy physics but how much that physics is actually affecting real world results is very questionable imo. It will be making a difference to some degree of course but enough for most to notice? Definitely not as much as people would have been led to believe by the marketing. And also agreed it's not a true old school blade but it's about as much of a blade as you get nowadays on the spectrum of clubs. Tbh in my fits I don't worry about forgiveness too much in the traditional sense. Forgiveness certainly isn't one dimensional. So when it comes to iron fittings play what club design and loft gives you the best overall performance. Forget the marketing around forgiveness and look at ball flights and hitting numbers 👌
@@epgolfstudios Yep, that is what I meant with "cannot defy physics": when you hit it out of the toe, the club face will rotate open. All that MOI stuff can reduce that a tiny bit, but never remove it. What do you think about offset? Does that really matter?
Depends on what you mean by make a difference. No shafts ever really change launch and spin, it's very minimal, they also won't affect forgiveness IMO, so shafts just come down to strike, timing, miss.
I mean your pretty damn robotic mate...sad to see how slow I look with 70mph swing! Frankly I could see club manufacturers cutting off your deals as you deflate their marketing spin. My take away...feel, look and emotion as much as performance with same swing. Of course loft biggest affect. Now come on people hit the sub button...you dont get this education anywhere else.
Thanks Bill! I'm only robotic as I'm great at editing 😏😅 and the manufactures don't care as long as they sell something, I will just sell them clubs that actually suit them better, rather than what people may believe suits them better. All the manufacturers do it and I can't blame them, it's business at the end of the day and they are all competing against each other for sales. My job is just to help the average golfers cut through the bullshit and know what really matters for them. As always appreciate the support 👍
Great video! I love that you test it with low swing speed similar to mine. I am a high handicap player so the 925 HM is what would suit me. However, I am surprised that your numbers with the Mizuno is pretty similar to my 5 year old Wilson D7 irons.
Wow, just stumbled upon this through my algorithm. I wish I could give you 20 👍…(while not shocked) I had no idea what the actual differences were. I suppose the thinking with the forgiveness irons is newer players are going to be all over the face, so with that 20 yard drop off they will still feel as if they are hanging in distance wise with “advanced” players who constantly make good strikes with blades. If the game improvement player makes a good strike and soars over the target, they won’t be as upset as missing short. Psychologically speaking it’s a dick showing contest 😆
Thanks really appreciate that 👍 yeah exactly and they kinda just buy into the marketing, why wouldn't you I guess. It all kinda makes sense. They just don't tell you about the negative parts of mega strong lofted irons 😅 and the fact that they actually aren't really that much more forgiving 😅 but hey, that gotta sell clubs somehow. That's business, can't be too mad at them
I think you should have used an 8 iron for the first 2 irons to compare or use a six iron for the blade. To compare the same distance If I have to go 140 yards with a blade I would have to use a 6 iron or a 130 yards with a 8 iron
Exactly that's one of the points of the video. A lot of people don't really know how much different these irons are in loft and therefore how differently a "7 iron" will perform. I have plans though to do a loft for loft test though with GI iron vs a blade soon
It would be interesting to see the forgiveness difference in the shorter irons that lose tech. For example, the 241 7 iron has tungsten in it, but the 8 doesn't. These single iron tests don't show the full difference across the set for varying tech.
@adambarnes4191 id say if there's virtually no difference between a massive chinky game improvement iron and a blade there will be no difference between a blade with a bit of tungsten and a blade without a bit of tungsten. The truth is even if it did anything it would be so marginal a test done by a human wouldn't show it.
@epgolfstudios Not going to haggle over 5%😂. I'm still a struggling golfer. I recently switched irons from Wilson D7 to Maltby TS3s (Think forged distance cavity backs) what made me switch was buying the 7 iron for trial. And I was impressed that the distance tradeoff was not that much but finally learned first hand the meaning of buttery. So that and the looks was what pushed me to change. What got me hooked up on golf was the acoustics side of it. These test results are definitely eye opening.
One thing to consider is the percentage of drop off. 20 yards on a 120 yard shot is a higher percentage drop off than 20 yards on a 140 yard shot. So it seems to be that the game improvement irons are more forgiving
Yeah you could argue that. But if you were to hit a blade 6i to get the 140 carry of the GI iron do I think the drop off would be much more than the GI iron? Not really, possibly a couple of yards more, so yes you could argue the GI is more forgiving by a small margin but it's so much worse in every other area, I don't think that makes up for that very small amount more of forgiveness
A lot of it is in the head and by that I mean the golfer's head not the iron head. Especially looking at a thin topline on blade long iron over a forced carry makes you feel like you're going to hit it badly and finally end up doing so. I think the key is to practice until you're comfortable and confident hitting them. I see most golfers at my local driving range hitting 7 irons, wedges, 3 woods and drivers but rarely take out long irons.
Well I think it's pretty clear from the numbers and drop off we see on bad hits that I don't believe there is anywhere near as much difference in "forgiveness" as people believe. And that goes for woods too. In terms of ball flight more often than not at a slow swing speed strong lofts are terrible. But there will be exceptions depending on how you swing the club. So for that there's only one way to know what suits you best regardless of what speed you swing, you have to go get fitted. This video is exactly why I don't fit by handicap 👍
Great. As always. Forgiveness is largely a myth. "Fitting" is also a myth, even by Ross who I would argue is one of the best "data driven trial and error facilitators" in the world. Would highly recommend him to anyone: best out of the box thinking HONEST chap out there.
This video analysis may be interesting to a point, but despite that, it’s based on fundamentally flawed assumptions, so therefore its effectively useless in my view. Hear me out! I see these practices / assumptions repeated ad nauseum by every reviewer and industry representative. 1] Preoccupation with testing 7 irons of various types of clubs, despite large loft variations. You should have tested a 241 blade 6 against a 242 7 iron with loft adjusted to 30 degrees; or a 241 blade 5 iron against the JPX “shovel” iron. When you fit a 70 mph iron swing player, do you ever fit them using those comparisons? I bet you don’t. If you did, I bet those golfers would do far better with the loft compared blade than you or they would expect! 2] Relative difficulty squaring up a clubhead between different types of clubheads. You swung at 70 MPH and by your own admission are a skilled ball striker. Accordingly, you are skilled at squaring up any club at impact. You are not a robot, but closer than most amateurs. Ever wondered if different types of clubheads are more difficult for amateurs to square up than other clubheads? All the testing published by manufacturers is based on robots. What is the single greatest difference between a robot test and any human testing? THE ROBOT TEST HAS A SINGLE PLANE PATH AND AN IRON GRIP THAT ALWAYS KEEPS THE CLUBHEAD SQUARE TO THAT PATH. NO HUMAN CAN DO THAT, NOT EVEN JACK OR TIGER!!! So where is the analysis of how hard relatively, is it to square up different types of clubhead at the moment of impact?? You don’t analyse that. You don’t test that with a consistent handicap golfer whose iron swing is 70 mph. Why would different clubheads be any different to square up at impact? Use your brains! If a driver / fairway wood has more fade bias the more weight you place towards the toe, meaning the face tends to square up more slowly, why doesn’t any reviewer question the wisdom of manufacturers placing more effective toe weight in irons with a combination of tungsten and longer clubheads? This is done to help the struggling slicer??? Give me a break! What about “gear effect” and offset I can bet you are thinking. Well gear effect will only work for a toe hit if you have already squared up the clubface or are close to that. If the club is built so that toe weight slows the ability to square the clubface, gear effect is no help! Offset is not a particularly helpful feature, especially large levels as it causes too much weight to be placed behind the shaft plane. In my experience this accentuates clubface lag initially, then faster rotation at impact, leading to inconsistent face angles at impact. 3] Comparative reviews. Look at any UA-cam reviewer comparisons over the years when new irons are tested together. Titleist / Mizuno/ Callaway etc. The skilled tester will start with the blade and invariably say four things. “Not suitable for anyone except scratch golfers”. [ PATRONISING AND ASSUMPTIVE] “Surprisingly easy to hit.” “Easy to square up.” “Doesn’t go as far as the other model 7 irons”. SO HIT A SIX IRON INSTEAD!! What is so special about a number stamped on a club?? In conclusion, for goodness’ sake THINK about what these manufacturers are serving up and form “informed” conclusions of your own, don’t just regurgitate the same old theories and testing regimes I fully expect this post to be deleted as soon as it’s read by the reviewer. Still, someone might read it before then. Take care guys.
Don’t worry I’ll never delete comments, we are always up for open discussion and debate, you make some good points but like many others are thinking unbelievably specifically and missing the general point of the video. This is a test designed to test “forgiveness” or essentially relative drop off between 3 mega different types of heads that would essentially be marketed by the forgiveness element. You could argue different clubs should be used (and this video is already in the making with us and will be launched soon) but there’s 2 specific reasons we don’t do that in this video. 1 head mass between different irons is very different and that more than anything would impact “forgiveness” and this for me is an eye opening video for the lesser informed golfing public who will not necessarily understand how different head club heads actually are in loft and what that would actually mean to the performance and the ball flight. So many believe the “forgiveness” hype and buy mega strong lofted irons without fully understanding how that could actually potentially be hurting them. In terms of actually squaring up the club face in different iron types I’ve done thousands of fittings and lots of testing with different abilities and I don’t believe it has enough of a difference to worry about what iron head you go into. Yes most blades have the CG more heel side and this is where the idea that they are more “workable” comes from, and it may be correct scientifically but in the hands of a human it makes very little difference, especially in irons. Drivers are a different story because of the head size and shape mass repositioning can have much more of an effect. Again same point works for gear effect. Head mass is very similar in corresponding irons and although CG locations will be slightly different from head to head as mentioned above it’s not enough to make a tangible difference to gear effect in a humans hand. Agreed offset also doesn’t do much, just looks horrible. Your point number 3 I’m not even sure what your point is here 😂 other reviewers generally just tell you exactly what the marketing says, which is generally nonsense. I generally do the opposite. And your conclusion I completely agree with. I’ve never seen anyone do this sort of test before on YT and go against the conventional wisdom of what the manufacturers are saying. So it looks to me like your conclusion is saying it’s a great video and well done for opening up people’s eyes….so your absolutely welcome 🙏 Appreciate the comment 👍
@@epgolfstudios First, I am not criticising your credibility or good intentions, just saying your analysis is not complete enough for me. Second, the relative “head mass” argument you suggest is a reason not to test different “numbered” clubs against each other, is a red herring. What you need to test is two different well made clubs that go 140 metres or 130 metres for the same mid handicap consistent swinging golfer PERIOD. [ preferably someone like a senior golfer who has been as low as, say 8 -10 handicap and is now 15 with a 6 iron swing speed of 70 mph.]. Nothing else, length head mass, etc has any relevance to such a test, assuming the swing weights and shaft types are comparable. If those two clubs are a 7 iron vs a 5 iron that is still a fair test. In the real world, a golf game involves hitting an iron club [ excepting wedges ] on average only every 10 minutes or so, maximum frequency. Why is that relevant? Your test should be conducted to replicate that “lack of familiarity” by getting the test golfer to hit 20 shots with each club; 40 shots in total, in 4 sets of 10, alternating every shot between each different club, with a break of at least 5 minutes between each set of 10 shots. You say in your opinion from experience head design makes little difference in an ability to square up a clubface. I will believe it when I see tangible shot dispersion evidence of such a test with no shots deleted, even the ones that don’t get past the ladies tee! Thirdly, my third point in my original post is simply that the testing I see generally on Utube [ not you ] tends to push people away from even considering blades or short bladed shallow cavity back irons, as there is always some gratuitous comment that these clubs are only for the best players and that they “look scary”. What are we, all a bunch of little girls afraid of the “boogie man”? Butter knife? Thin top line? You don’t hit a club with the top line! Fourthly, I can make an additional point here and that is I have heard it said that if many Pros use cavity back irons, [ and many do ] then that proves that blades cant be used successfully by amateurs. I suspect though that the real reason some pros don’t use blades is that they are looking for some extra help to block out the left side of the course, because most of them want to hit fades, or are drawers of the ball and want to prevent a hook by using more fade biased clubs. EG Corey Conners and his Ping 230’s which are fade biased. Just look are the reviews of those irons. That’s not a good recipe for most amateurs! Many pros who want to shape the ball both ways want the face control of blades; e.g, Rory, Tommy and Scottie
Another essay Jimbo, someone’s keen 😂 and again as much as we appreciate the support, feedback and suggestions we will keep doing our own content how we see fit 👍
Do that same test with a 70 year old senior, and you'd see a different result. Moving that pin forward defeated the whole purpose of what game improvement irons were designed for. The reason they buy them is because they cannot reach a 140 pin with a blade, because (A) they cannot find the small sweet spot like you can, (inconsistent ball striking) and (B) your average 70 MPH swinger isn't looking for spin. They want forgiveness for those duff strikes, and to get it rolling onto the green so they can putt. If it don't get there, they can't putt. "Well, use a 6 iron" I hear you say, Even more difficult to hit, that's why they buy Game improvement Irons.
A very broad answer. The whole point is getting a club that gets the best of your current delivery in terms of presented loft and clubhead speed. Therefore, achieving the optimal land angle based on the course you are playing as you said. This might mean game improvement irons are worse due to stupid low lofts and having the brilliant video as above the loss in forgiveness is absolutely marginal and not worth putting people in a club purely based on handicap.
I agree with Gareth below. And I personally would disagree with your point about if it were a senior golfer we would see a different result. You saw the difference in forgiveness between the heads. It's virtually nothing. One thing I will agree with is they may not be able to reach a 140 pin nor might it be the correct thing to do. And I'm not saying that it is. The reality is there would be a nice middle ground in terms of Iron design for them. Possibly a 790 bent weak or 770 (again no difference in forgiveness between them) and then they may even stop at a 7i and go to a hybrid for that 140 shot which would be infinitely easier to hit than any iron and give better numbers and a tangible forgiveness benefit. I kind of get your point but it's a very specific example and the point of my video is broad. It's not to say to anyone they "must play this" or "can't play that". It's simply to open people's eyes to the differences in club designs out there, not to write off specific clubs just because of marketing and also don't go to specific clubs just because of marketing. Ultimately my message is the same as every single other video that I've done. Get fitted with an open mind and find out what suits you best. That's the only answer there ever will be.
GI 7i is a 5i with a 7i shaft meant to separate a 70yo from his money when he should buy a hybrid or 9/11w. There are plenty of 70yo who swing faster than 50yo btw...marketing hype is for all ages and hc's. Less loft is never the answer for less speed. Ross' test was as goood as a person could do and shows that iron forgiveness is way more myth than magic in modern clubs.
"I don't fit by handicap" - My famous phrase and this video is one of many demonstrating why I believe that. What did you all think of the forgiveness testing?
I'm so glad you've proven this. I'm off 18 and some channels on youtube in the comments section they laugh at me for using Mizuno 221's. I hit them the same as any other club.
@@epgolfstudios eye opening. One thing I would like is to test the new Cleveland Halo XL full face irons. This is one subject I have been thinking about: the effect of extending the grooves on the face on forgiveness. In various forums I have enquired apparently it doesn't matter much. But a test could just put the discussion to rest.
@nomadvehr827 thanks! And yes it wouldn’t make any difference to forgiveness at all
@epgolfstudios , I like your forgiveness testing. I'd would have liked you to sum up your conclusion, at the end. There are so many variables, eg different swing speeds 65 / 70 / 75 / 80, and while exhaustive testing would be frankly exhausting... maybe the hot metal would work better at 65?? Maybe the hot metal works better with a senior shaft? Maybe the hot metal, with a fatter sole, protects more against fats?
I am hoping that your experience would inform us beyond the base data.
That is, would you recommend a 70mph swing speed should try the blades first and ensure they are looking at SD over max distance?
Firstly I’d never really recommend anyone play blades tbh, this test is more for extreme testing. The reality is swing speed will make virtually no difference to the forgiveness element, and generally speaking the slower you swing it the more loft you want. So at a slower speed I certainly wouldn’t recommend the hot metal pro as really is the basis of this video, slow speed and strong lofts don’t mix well. Shafts make virtually no difference to launch and spin so shafts wouldn’t come into my thought process when trying to find the right flight characteristics for a player. So I do get your points but the reality is there would be zero difference in testing at different speeds with different shafts, so it’s a bit pointless in all honesty. In terms of strictly performance speed does come into it but how you deliver the club is more important, so I can’t guide anyone when it comes to that because I have no idea how you deliver the club, swing speed is only a very small part of the equation. The reality is these videos are guides and things to be aware of, if you want what suits you best there is only one way of finding that out and that’s going and getting fitted properly and in depth testing 👌👍
Yours and "Ask Golf Nut" are the best YT channel for golf club reviews and small tips to help our game, Well done and keep up the great work.
Thanks Steve 👍 I'll have to take a proper look at his stuff, people speak quite highly of it which is brilliant 👌
Thanks for the mention, a lot of work goes into creating Forgiveness based testing and all the editing of the graphics required to illustrate how a club realistically performs from off centre hits. I'm glad that viewers of this channel and my own AskGolfNut channel enjoy watching multiple swing speed forgiveness tests 👍
Thanks for taking the time to show all data, interesting video.
As a slower swing speed golfer this is a very welcome video. Loved all the data and I'd enjoy more of these to help those of us who swing slow to evaluated shafts, drivers, hybrids, etc. Thank you very much.
This has made me feel so much better knowing that I seem to be carrying distances I “should” be based on my slow swing speed. It also gives me freedom of choices that I do not have to go with game improvement irons based on swing speed.
This is gold for me Ross as it you're on my exact mark for slow swing speeds. The data suggests that forgiveness is marginal and so in my mind, I just need to find the right clubs for me that I'd be confident hitting. Thank you so much for this video - really gives me the data to compare my exact game (8.2H) and see how a good player hitting these clubs slowly, measures up.
Great stuff Dave, remember swing speed is still only a small part of the equation when weighing up the right fit. So still get fitted would say unless you are very familiar with how you deliver the club. But at that speed I would always recommend more loft. Less loft is generally terrible unless you have a very scoopy delivery
You should have put the hot metal high launch in, since it is designed for the lower swing speeds.
That wasn't the point of this test, but you're absolutely right it is a better head for slower swing speeds. We have done a full review and test of the whole JPX 925 line up 👍
Thanks for another great video! Just about perfect with my swing speed with a 7 iron...my 7 iron is an old blade 35 degrees of loft...same carry distance 130ish depending on the strike. I have been thinking of players distance iron but ca't get over the large head after playing blades most of my golfing life. The 245 looks like a good option to add to my list of irons when I get fit.
@@andyd_9 If you're in the States or Canada you might consider Maltby, Haywood or Sub70 budget wise. If money is no concern, then knock yourself out!
Thanks - just about to swap my Rogue ST Pros for Apex CB/MB combo and you've just reinforced by decision (although I'm strengthening them a couple of degrees). Looking forward to getting back to blades and the challenge that comes with it!
Great video. What about the HL version of the HM?
Thank you for the test. I have a set of Mizuno MP59’s that I used when I played a lot more often. After a long break from golf I tried GI cavity back irons. Terrific ball speed, but way too much height and yardage gaps were terrible. Bunched up in the longer clubs and too far apart below 7 iron. I tried the Mizunos and hit the 7 iron just as far even though it was six degrees weaker. Ball flight was a lot more ideal. I’m looking to upgrading to the MP243’s to get better gaps in the longer clubs and couldn’t shake the idea of giving up forgiveness. I’ll prioritize ball flight and gaps. This test validates my experience that “players” irons aren’t that unforgiving.
Absolutely agree with all of that Jason. Again it just comes down to playing what suits you best. But you make great points about the gapping. I feel GI irons are terrible for this
Pretty much the same with me. I’ve got a set of even older MP57’s and decided will treat myself to a new set next time I break 80, but started doing my research and realised most of the irons are just 1-2 clubs stronger, so would probably need to reconfigure my wedges, so not sure now. The current plan is to see what the specs of the 925 tours are when they come out in the New Year.
Actually shocked you're not at over 100k subs. Really good testing content. It'll pay off eventually, I'm sure.
Agreed he is one of the best in YT when it comes to equiipment tests. I subbed of course and hope others will too because he deserves it.
Unfortunately, most equipment channels don't have the following they should. However this one is one of the best for sure.
Yes subscribed and like. Good test!
Thanks all, really appreciate the support 👍☺️
First time visitor.
Have just subscribed.
Great content and presentation 👏
Looking forward to catching up with your previous work.
What a great video Ross! I’m not sure if you’ve done it already, but perhaps a video idea could be to do the same test comparing 10 year old irons with their modern equivalent…maybe I’ll just do that video myself, and you can do it better 🤣👍
Or why don't you come on the channel and do it? More than happy to have you on mate and it's a good idea 👍
Been waiting for this video!
Great video Ross. I think a bad swing is a bad swing. Poor delivery is going to end up with a poor result regardless of the club. Getting fitted for a club that suits your swing is going to give best results in the long run.
Thanks Nic! And yeah absolutely agree. A lot of people let the marketing get in their head, hit a couple of bad shots and write it off as being too unforgiving, when really this isn't the case when you really look at the data. And yeah completely mate. Getting fitted properly is the way forward for every golfer 🙌👌
Another fantastic video Ross, keep up the good work 👏🏼 the best UK channel for detailed reviews
@@jackedge5681 thanks Jack appreciate that bud 👍
Man I love your videos!! Just chalk full of useful information! One question though, if the only thing that really matters is loft then please compare loft vs loft in game improvement irons 9 iron vs blades 7 iron so we can see the difference. Absolutely love your videos!
Thanks! And yes that video will be coming but I'll do 7 vs 5 to make it even more interesting
@@epgolfstudios Really looking forward to this, would love to see 5 iron 241 vs. an equivalent 7 in game improvement. If you felt like mixing up brands seeing a Wilson Staff model blade vs. an equivalent 7 would be great too.
I think the point is you can hit the hot metal further with the same shaft length. You still get decent height . The reason the clubs are forgiving is that it’s easier to hit a club with a shorter shaft. So a high handicapper plays better with game improvement clubs because they are using shorter shafts to get longer distances.
They are more likely to hit the green with a 7 iron hot metal than a 5 or 6 iron blade.
Subbed mate. I’ve been gaming Ping G400 which got me to 15 (from beginning) but not sure if want a blade-like set. They do look much nicer though, wish you were in Australia
So really my thoughts of changing from T150 to 245 pro on the idea the drop off on mis-hits would be less are unfounded & it is all down to my crap swing (and the inability to find a coach who can fix it)!
Great test! I'm curious how launch angle, decent angle and spin would have compared if you would have switched clubs to hit the same distance.
This test will be coming soon 👍
@@epgolfstudiosFantastic idea guys. “The other side of the coin” with carry distance fixed rather than the outcome you’ll show us how the tech “does” to o get you there and what lofts and flight characteristics each club does. Perhaps fittings should be done like that. Find a “reasonable/optimal” distance and then change clubs and specs to hit it and choose the best flight/forgiveness rate for it.
That I’ve never seen before you’ll be breaking ground mate
Absolutely agree mate. Does get my mind wandering that does. Would love to be able to offer a fitting service like that. Almost fit individually for each club to a certain extent regardless of what it is. It's all about the performance and the outcome. I try and do it the best I can at the moment but the unfortunate reality is we just don't have the money to do that, we can't afford to. If I did that I'd go out of business at the moment without question. Unless I put my fitting fees up a lot but most wouldn't understand why or be willing to pay it. So as we grow and the brand grows I will have more opportunities to grow and evolve the business. But it's been a hard lesson these past few years of starting and running this business. It's extremely tough to do it at the base level and make any sort of money at all. We still dont make much money. So start talking about spending another 50k on fitting equipment and you quickly find yourself in a very bad spot.
Class this mate. I'm using darkspeed irons and seriously thinking about a forge tec upgrade
I’ve just switched from Darkspeed to Dynapower forged and the difference in ball flight and descent angle is night and day. And the feel wow. Can actually tell where on the face I’ve hit it 😂😂
Did you lose much distance?
@ distance isn't the issue for me. You have to look at loft rather than the number on the club imo. A 27 degree 7 iron isnt really a 7 iron. My 7 went 175 but came in like a piss missile. My 7 (31.5) now comes in at a much better angle but about 165. Front to back is much better, stopping power is much better, gapping is better. I have 3-5 degrees difference by club in my bag top to bottom and I've gained so much more consistency. The dark speed would go 160 or 190 without me even knowing why 😂😂😂
😂😂 thats true, mine do that.
Great content! Loved seeing the miss hits and how they were affected. I’ve watched countless videos of iron fittings and comparison videos but this is the first time I’ve seen someone show the miss hits and quantify them. It is very interesting to see they are all basically the same in forgiveness from a front to back perspective. I know you said you are not a robot and that’s why it’s harder to tell the left to right dispersion. But do you think there’s any significant difference in these three from left to right forgiveness?
For me it’s the hand sting factor that many of us struggle with, thin a blade and your hand fizzes for 5 minutes whereas a hollow body or GI feels less harsh and allows you to carry on. So my takeaway is peak height and land angle should dictate your iron choice?
Yeah that is actually one of the most reasonable points that's been made on any of these types of videos 👍 the 'feedback' through a blade would certainly be harsher. And yes absolutely right. You need to get the right loft to ensure the best ball flight, best land angle, and best distance all while maintaining proper gapping throughout the set. That is always the goal.
Fit graphite shafts, problem solved. I personally play 241 with fujikura axiom shafts. Miss hit vibration gonzo 🎉
@ one to test Ross!
Absolutely
But you can also tell much more easily where you missed it. GI irons mask your errors.
Great show Ross, I'm off to see Alex at orka this week for a fitting nice to have this information beforehand to for that better experience, and your better than a robot, keep them coming mate.
Not sure I'm better than a robot 😂😂 but I try my best and appreciate the comment. All the best at the fitting, hope it goes well 👍
I see you found his deal too! Hope you get on well mate, myself and my brother are getting fit in January
Very interesting results I can't use game improvement just can't control distance out of interest ho would this compare once you get into the realy lower lofts for slow swing speeds I'm not a slow swing player just interested that all
Yeah you just wouldn't. Even if someone at a slower swing speed wanted to play those sort of irons I'd say probably stop a 7 iron. Maybe 6 iron at a real push. Ball flight would just get so low that at a certain point you'd actually start to lose distance. Like your 6 iron would actually be going further than the 5 because they just wouldn't be able to get enough height to get the correct carry. And the ball flight would just be so low you'd never stop it on a green. So hybrids or fairways instead of long irons would be the way forward. But personally I'd never recommend a slow swing speed to play strong lofted irons, unless they added a lot of loft at impact.
@epgolfstudios thanks boss brilliant ancer
🫡
Great video. You addressed a direct question that I have. Thanks.
No worries at all glad it helped 👌
I’m a 15 handicap with 81 MPH 7 iron and a bit of a nut when it comes to trying different iron sets. I have used them all. By far my keeper set is a set of old Mizuno MP-30 half cavity MB blade. With those in hand I pure more shots and have better scores than with any other set. I lose about a club length compared to players distance but that’s okay. And the feel is phenomenal. I’ve given up on trying to find a better iron, once I bend the 5 iron a degree stronger they will be perfect in gapping 5-PW.
Do more of these test especially with Titleist
Really interesting video - thanks
Really great video and very eye opening. However, I would have liked to have seen a sort of "conclusion" piece where using the data you gathered produced an average percentage of drop off from each club on each strike pattern. for exampled: " there was an average with the 241 of x% drop off when hit out of the toe compared to out of the centre". something like that really would show how merky or clear cut the results are.
I love when people say . “Unless you’re pro you’re not good enough to play blades” really depending on delivery blades can be more forgiving because of a narrow sole for some players. Try it all play what works for you.
Absolutely agree 👍
I believe turf integration is key. That, and launch and spin like you said, Ross.
Id love to see him just testing 5 diffrent 7 irons that have various lofts like QI10 HL, QI10, Dynapowers, and then toss in some wildcard like an Inesis.
The most interesting analysis about iron type forgiveness.
Thanks 🙏
I recently bought some Apex CB Irons I am way more accurate with them and the front to back dispersion is so much better than with anything else I have used in my 20 years golfing. When I miss the middle I can feel where the miss is and I come up short but not severely so. I play off around 10 and swing Driver around 95 mph.
That's great, seems like you've found a good set of irons for you 🙌 and yeah most people are surprised about the 'forgiveness' that you get even out of a more players type of iron. And I agree front to back will always be better on a more traditional iron loft and design 💣
Great idea for a video, and excellent execution. Really makes me think about marketing vs real world data. As a relatively new 21 H.I. golfer, I like the idea of a better ball flight & descent to stick the greens and don't mind giving up some distance but was concerned about the "forgiveness". What is clear to me from this test - and my own observation as my swing and strike improve - is that "forgiveness" is mostly a marketing term, and getting good instruction and improving delivery are the most important. So maybe my next clubs will be blades or CBs!
Don't be too quick to judge that. AskGolfNut does some great testing, including heat maps. No question a lot of "player's distance" clubs aren't that forgiving but there are clubs out there that are WAY more forgiving than blades. The big takeaway of this test is that you don't want strong lofts if you have a slow swing speed.
Great video, I like how you present and go into those details.. just some advice: when comparing the drop off, I think you shouldn't compare absolute yardage between the clubs, but go by percentage.. those lofts are a bit too different to compare absolute yardage.. still, definitely worth a subscription ;)
Thanks appreciate the sub 🙌👍 well I was just comparing the yardage drop off relative to the best shot that we hit with each club. Which I think is a fair way to do it. But either way it doesn't really matter. The moral of the story is there is pretty much nothing in it 😂👌
Great video, like always.
Thanks bpak 👊
You have a great channel. Just discovered it
Thank you 👍
just adding a comment for the algorithms... everyone else should like and comment on every video they take the time to watch.
@@ryanainsworth630 appreciate that Ryan 👍👍
Do you think the different sole widths, could influence the strike pattern at different speeds?
Maybe fractionally but for most amateur golfers you wouldn't be able to tell how much or what it's actually doing to any consistent level imo
Ok thanks
awesome video well done i am looking for new irons I had stealths with regular ventus red graphite shafts and loved them but after 400 rounds in 3 seasons I am ready for some new irons i am about to be 60 years old 5'6 and handicap of 8-10 and trying to choose between Taylormade Qi10 / HL or PXG Black Ops or Cobra Darkspeed irons i am lookin for feel / distance / forgiveness / spin / height your thoughts ? which shaft you think might work KBS Max 65 / Tensei Blue / UST Nanacore 60 or is there another you like ? I am unable to get fitted or go hit any balls I pretty much have my stats of 78-82 mph on my 7 irons swing speed Lie 1 degree up length 37 inches driver is 90-94 mph I am open to all advice and thoughts thx in advance cheers from Canada
Really interesting video for me. I've been playing the Miz 923s all year and have been improving my striking a lot. I'd love to see something like this on front to back dispersion between them. (I feel like I'm getting fliers and duds with the 923s sometimes)
I wonder how this would have looked with the JPX 925 HL ? 32 degrees of loft but ultra forgiving ?
Would love to see a loft to loft comparison. Realistically you would select the club by carry not iron number
That will be coming 👍 but really this was more of a case of forgiveness rather than distance in this test
It still matters. Carry v carry will show a bigger difference on mishits. The higher lofted club will be less affected, so that is a variable you need to remove. If i am playing a 140 yard hole, i dont care what the number on the iron is.
So for the 140 yard carry, which club will give me the most forgiveness? The game improvement 8 iron or the blade 7 iton? Thats what matters.
I would have liked to see an overlay of dispersion between the clubs for toe and heal strikes. I know you are not a robot, but it might show and could be the difference between the clubs.
Dispersion is still all down to me dude. The toe and heel strikes with every model went straight when I delivered a square face. Honestly there would be zero difference between these clubs in dispersion on mishits. That’s 100% player 🤙
@@epgolfstudios Okay dude, but I am a high handicapper as probably most of the people watching this video are. Your video has the word "Truth" in it. It is hardly the truth if you don't cover dispersion, the most important part of a forgiveness iron.
Like all high handicappers I mis hit too much and want to know the "Truth", "how much are they likely to help me", in other words how forgiving are they.
Yardage loss is the lesser part of the equation, I think we can all guess we would lose some yardage from toe and heal strikes. Dispersion is the biggest part and the main reason for buying forgiveness irons and not possible to guess.
Please take the word "Truth" out of the title or add the word "Distance". This video has nothing to do with forgiveness irons main purpose which is dispersion.
Great vid. Does the forgiveness change as speed increases? Say 90mph or more for a 7 iron?
I changed from Mizuno 919s to TM P7MCs and honestly wouldn't look back. I think as this video shows, a bad shot is a bad shot regardless of the club. Maybe there's a couple mm of more functional shots in the middle of the face but for me, my poor shots with the player's distance clubs still came up short, but my good strikes were prone to the odd ball coming off like a rocket and leaving me dead behind the green.
The blades have had a way tighter dispersion and the more immediate feel helps me self-diagnose on the fly if I'm striking it away from the middle.
Great video as always! Around 85mph with a 7 iron, and 105 with driver would be a good speed for me to watch 🤭👍🏻 Will come for a fitting in the new year when all the new stuff is in
love it man thank you !
Hi, great content! Thumbs up and one more subscriber.
I´ve been to a fitting but without any good results for me. As I’m trying to improve my game with lessons and training two times a week, I would like to get some new irons for Christmas. Would you recommend a Mizuno Pro 245 / Ping I 530 / Titleist T 200 for a 40 year old, 25 HC, 70 mph swing speed golfer? I do know what shaft I prefer, but I´m not certain what clubhead would help me the most for the next couple of years. Due to my slow swing speed, I´m struggling with an acceptable descent angle. As I understand your content, a game improvement iron would not be the best choice, and there is more control of the golf ball?
Hey Philipp, brilliant many thanks for the support. And the honest answer is I don't know. It really comes down to how you deliver the club into impact, this is actually far more important than your swing speed and you'd handicap. But if you struggle with stopping the ball on the green then I would say go to an iron with more loft. An iron that I love for slower speeds is the P770. Looks and feels great, launches well and spins well. As forgiving as anything else out there and doesn't feel too bad on the mishits either. So definitely try that 👍
Most people don't have your swing speed, but most also have more than 70 mph used in this test. I feel this test would have had more relevance to the most golfers with 80 mph as the test speed. If you are at 70 mph, I would not recommend any of the heads in this test, but instead the Cleveland Halo XL or similar from other brands.
Yeah I've done plenty at my swing speed and quite a lot at 80/75 so decided to make more of a point and do it at a slow speed. It doesn't really matter too much because delivery is always more important than swing speed but it does the same thing, just opens people's eyes and gets them thinking a little bit more about what irons they maybe should be looking at, or at least get them to think about getting a fitting. I'm never telling people what they should be buying as it's impossible, it's just getting people to think differently and not be confused by marketing. But yeah absolutely they would be good for slower speed that needs help with launch. Id almost call them more hybrids than irons 😂 but definitely would give that sort of player good numbers.
I have a set of taylormade firesole irons... and my concern is that if I were to buy new clubs, they wouldn't be appreciably better than what I already have. Weights in the sole... perimeter weighting... so much of the tech seems like they are just repackaging the same tech from 20 years ago.
What graphite shaft would you use for 80-85 mph swing speed? Modus 120 stiff currently, but lots of hand pain. Thanks!
Just my opinion, i would have been more interested in seeing the data and dispersions if the lofts were matched across the irons. I’m aware this may have meant a 9 iron in the GI and an 8 in the blade.
This will be coming soon 👍 but in a fair test of forgiveness having different shaft lengths and different head weights would be less fair IMO. And dispersion is like 98% player in my honest opinion
If you want a good looking game improvement iron the Hot Metal Pro is the best hands down
I Love what you do (and am a subscriber) BUT in this case I am not sure you are representing forgiveness for a slow swing mid or high hcp golfer. To me most important is do I know my carry distance and do i hit that pretty consistently. Overall distance is of lesser important. So, if I have 140 yds to the flag (assuming no wind, no slope) that’s my 7 iron. So, if I have a blade, perhaps it’s a 6 iron but the question is how consistently do I hit that blade 6 iron vs my players distance iron 7 (as a mid hcp 67 yr old) i.e. do i hit the blade poorly more frequently than my players distance iron so suffer the drop-offs more? You can’t replicate that because you are a good golfer who is so good he can also swing at 70mph. But, if I was in the UK and could come to you for a fitting, I am sure you would help me select the right clubs for me be it blade, distance or game improvement. MY CONCLUSION: it’s not about the type of club but rather being fit for the club which best suits the swing and playing conditions. Unfortunately, i don’t have an EP near me!😊
I dont mean to be too critical, your content is top shelf.
But a better comparison for forgiveness would be distance v distance, not 7i v 7i. If the swing speed is held constant, who cares what 7i (a) does vs 7i (b).
The question is, for the 80 mph swing speed 7i, what would the equivalent 8i speed be, and then compare forgiveness numbers.
I would expect a club with less loft to be less forgiving, all else being equal.
This way, you could evaluate on percentages, not raw yardage, which again, adds variables.
Pls can you do the same tests with 80mph and 90 mph.
Maybe later on down the line but in all my equipment tests I always do this (test heel and toe for drop off) so even at 80-90 mph it would be the same thing i.e the drop off between models would be virtually the same
Actually, i was just wondering what the carry distances should be.
Either way I look forward to more great content. 👍
Interesting that toe shots on irons seem more damaging to distance than heel shots while it seems the opposite on drivers and other woods
Absolutely, although to give my opinion on that, you can't shank a driver but you can shank an iron 😂 20mm+ on a heel strike with an iron is a shank. You can hit it off the face on a toe strike and it still goes somewhat forward. But yes absolutely right the toe on woods is very good and the heel is horrific. That certainly doesn't seem as bad on irons for sure.
I did this test on my Bushnell Launch Pro with a Mizuno Blade, PXG Players, and Ping G400 at the same loft. Results are almost identical with each for me. Forgiveness is a myth. Shank is a shank. Play what you love. The biggest difference I find is blades have tighter dispersion on identical swings where fatter clubs had more variance.
Well I think you mention loft there and that really is the biggest part of getting an iron set that fits you correctly. Making sure the lofts throughout the iron set optimize, height, descent angle, and distance while maintaining proper gapping. That's the one issue with game improvement irons. For most people they only tick the distance box. And for some they don't even do that.
@@epgolfstudios well said. I recently swapped up Miura KM-700 and have been enjoying the more traditional loft. Just need to get over my ego that my 33 degree 7i isn’t going to go as far as my 28.5 degree 7i used to.
@@mcnillerandsons7906 yeah for some it can be a hard pill to swallow but best way is just to write down the yardages and then figure out the club that gives you the best ball flight for that yardage. Doesn't matter if it says 7 on it or 5 on it or if it's a hybrid or fairway wood. Just play what gives you overall the best performance 👌👍
@@epgolfstudioscould not agree more. That’s why it’s silly to ask another golfer what club they just hit, because you don’t know their lofts or distance they hit each club. Know your carry and play your game. Your competition is not the other players unless it’s Match Play, otherwise, it’s the course. Cheers.
Great job mate although I must admit I like the look of a thicker top line.....I don't think you would enjoy my Callaway big Bertha's from 94😂 nice to see a test with the older classics though against the latest and greatest.
Thanks Raymond 👍 and yeah I think you might be right there 😅 although saying that people say about how much clubs have come on....I think some testing is in order 👀👀
Lordy... there was a HUGE size difference between the player's and the blade. I don't think it was just the camera angle.
Great video. I play traditional lofted cavity backs and have weakened them by 2⁰ to achieve height and descent I want. Swing speed with 7 low 80s. Did not lose any distance. I see too many with slower swings coming out of box stores with these strong lofted irons.
@@dennissmith1904 couldn't agree more 👍👍
On this topic, why do you think so many Titleist players go with the 620MB or versions of it in the 6-9 irons, rather than the T100? Quite a consistent trend among top titleist players, Ludvig being an exception
Does the blade miss hit cause more arm shuddering vibration than the others, tho?
Yeah you definitely get more feedback on the bad ones with the blades
Kind of wild. I know the sample size wasn't huge but it seems the blade and the player's distance are very comparable in forgiveness. Both lose around 15% carry off a toe strike and around 10% off the heel. The super GI seems to be around 10% of the toe and around 7% off the heel.
I also think in a real scenario on the course, a lot of less experienced players will struggle with bottom point control and early release, so you'll see a lot of shots that bottom out before the ball resulting in fats and thins. The wider soles on the SGI irons should also help with fat shots, by gliding along the turf more rather than digging in
Love your videos. I’m torn between the t200s and the t350s. Just got into golf this year and have a 34 handicap. Your videos really break these down for me. Thank you
Thanks Brandon. I'm glad you like the videos and I'm glad they help. If you've ever got any questions feel free to ping me an email 👍
Where is the link??
Diversification is a prerequisite for marketing. And marketing is a prerequisite for sales. GI, SGI, UGI irons can’t overturned the fact that the ball has the same diameter, as the clubhead has the same sweet spot size. Of course, there could be variations on MOI that could add some help with the outcome of a non perfect shot, but marginally. From my point of view, first priority is to play an iron you enjoy staring at it, and feeling it’s impact. This encourages the chain reaction you need to play good golf (shot planning -attention - execution)
Good way of putting it 👍 and yes I do agree but for me the best places to start is the right lofted set (through the whole set) to optimise both distance and control for the way you deliver the club
The feel of the iron is my big deal. If the 245 feels better than the hot metal, which I would imagine is true, I’d go with the 245. The 241 might hurt the hands in mis-hits. I’m actually looking at the 245 for my new clubs. Still hitting JPX 900 Forged set and still like-’em!
Can you help me understand why you wouldn’t test the different irons from the same distance? Ignore the number stamped on the club and hit whatever goes 130 yards - then see which club performs best.
In thus test, you were 12 yards further with the game improvement than the blade. That’s like saying a 7 iron has better height and descent than a 6 iron. I wouldn’t hit a game improvement 7 iron from 130 yards. I would hit an 8 iron. How would the game improvement 8 iron compare to the blade 7 iron? Would that not be the more meaningful test?
It will be interesting when Bryson starts selling his irons with roll and bulge, not dissimilar to the Eleven hybrids which already have that assistance.
Yeah I think with his speed it may make a bit of a tangible difference. I'm not sure for most amateurs especially slower seeing speed. Will be interesting to see if we could quantify if it actually does anything for average golfers.
A few variables that this test ignores.
1. Turf interaction. More forgiving clubs have wider soles and more bounce help with digging. Hitting off artificial turf minimizes penalty for fat strikes.
2. Squaring the face. As you move towards game-improvement, there’s going to be more help with internal weighting to get the club squared and turning over thru the ball. High index players struggle with squaring up.
3. Hot spots. I can’t explain how this happens because it seems random, but you can get these wild hot strikes on game improvement irons that go miles past your normal range.
Can’t really test turf interaction indoors. In all honesty it would be extremely hard to test outdoors! I think the honest reality of that how much difference would it actually make to the vast majority of golfers? Not much at all. For a very small percentage it might a little bit. But from what I’ve tested and seen i really don’t think it matters that much.
Yeah squaring the face is slightly easier, I do mention this in the data section. But again for the vast majority of golfers it’s a very marginal thing.
There’s definitely no hot spots. That’s just golfers inconsistent strike and delivery, with a few other variables chucked in there such as moisture, grass, dirt, anything that create less friction between club and ball. It will happen with every club but one thing I will say is when you start at a point of already low spin, like you would with a GI iron, the spin will drop very low which will create greater distance jumps when all of those variables align. Just another reason front to back on a GI iron is worse.
@ It’s fascinating results. I just think you’re too good at being bad. LOL.
What would happen if you did this test with a high handicapper?
So if the game improvement irons aren't great for slower swing speeds, who are they for?
It seems that more speed is needed to handle the strong lofts...but if you had more speed they would travel too far and cause issues at the bottom end of the bag?
Does anyone actually benefit from these strong lofts in a real world scenario?
Yep...the manufacturers 😂
Excellent Q mate. Ive just come out of a fitting and the guys made this exact point. The HM and HMP didn’t suit me because at 80mph 7i swing speed it’s not functional. So for normal speed it’s more like the HL or the 245’s or you have to bend the HMP weak a lot (not ideal).
So to your point these are puzzling market things
Love it 😂
So really it's a very small amount of people. Like mid swing speed who scoop it basically. You're right they are no good for fast swing speeds or really slow swing speeds. So yeah like slow'ish' and mid speed players who deliver a lot of loft at impact.
Well done! At age 72 I've always said, I can shoot 80 blades or SGI Irons. I can also shoot 90 with either.
Jay has already done this. What’s different about your test?
No idea who Jay is. My statement absolutely could be full of shit, but it sounds good 😂 I just haven't seen anyone else do the format that I do and how I do it
I've tried GI irons and they didn't work for me at all much prefer my Srixon 785's. Toe strikes always have a bigger drop off than heel unless you hit an unmentionable.
785s are great irons! And yeah absolutely but only in irons. In woods toe strikes are so much better. And to be fair with a toe strike you can miss the face and it still goes forward but if you do that off the heel it's a shank 😅
I learned on blades and have played them with good results. I think it's a cork sniffer thing. Like only the best of the best should use the best looking clubs and us mere amateurs have been told to fear them. Sounds ridiculous but it's not far off. I've never picked up a golf club or any other sporting equipment and every felt fear. SMH
Yet another reason not to change from my MP-33's.
You cannot defy physics. Also, it is not really a "blade", but a muscle back. It has weight distributed a little bit to give some "forgiveness". "Real" blades are the old hickory irons, that really are a plain sheet of metal.
Anyway, I highly appreciate you doing this video! Atm I am trying to figure out what this whole "forgiveness" and "game improvement" stuff actually does. Most videos really are good golfers hitting the middle at high speeds which does not say a lot. Cheers for doing this!
Agree you can't defy physics but how much that physics is actually affecting real world results is very questionable imo. It will be making a difference to some degree of course but enough for most to notice? Definitely not as much as people would have been led to believe by the marketing. And also agreed it's not a true old school blade but it's about as much of a blade as you get nowadays on the spectrum of clubs.
Tbh in my fits I don't worry about forgiveness too much in the traditional sense. Forgiveness certainly isn't one dimensional. So when it comes to iron fittings play what club design and loft gives you the best overall performance. Forget the marketing around forgiveness and look at ball flights and hitting numbers 👌
@@epgolfstudios Yep, that is what I meant with "cannot defy physics": when you hit it out of the toe, the club face will rotate open. All that MOI stuff can reduce that a tiny bit, but never remove it.
What do you think about offset? Does that really matter?
Absolutely. And again it's a marginal technology. Can make a small difference but again enough for most amateurs to notice a big difference? Not imo.
Very very interesting. Do shafts make more of a difference for slow swing speed players?
Depends on what you mean by make a difference. No shafts ever really change launch and spin, it's very minimal, they also won't affect forgiveness IMO, so shafts just come down to strike, timing, miss.
@epgolfstudios thank for your reply!
I mean your pretty damn robotic mate...sad to see how slow I look with 70mph swing! Frankly I could see club manufacturers cutting off your deals as you deflate their marketing spin. My take away...feel, look and emotion as much as performance with same swing. Of course loft biggest affect. Now come on people hit the sub button...you dont get this education anywhere else.
Thanks Bill! I'm only robotic as I'm great at editing 😏😅 and the manufactures don't care as long as they sell something, I will just sell them clubs that actually suit them better, rather than what people may believe suits them better. All the manufacturers do it and I can't blame them, it's business at the end of the day and they are all competing against each other for sales. My job is just to help the average golfers cut through the bullshit and know what really matters for them. As always appreciate the support 👍
Im just here to appreciate a positive comment. Cheers m8!!
The 245 model looks attractive but the price in Canada is $1800. Yikes.
Any alternatives at a lower price point.
Great video! I love that you test it with low swing speed similar to mine. I am a high handicap player so the 925 HM is what would suit me. However, I am surprised that your numbers with the Mizuno is pretty similar to my 5 year old Wilson D7 irons.
Just realized I wasn’t a sub. I fixed that
Legend appreciate that Jason 🙏
The problem is you never just change one thing, when you change one thing you inadvertently change 3 more.
@@ScottieD1967 please expand
Wow, just stumbled upon this through my algorithm. I wish I could give you 20 👍…(while not shocked) I had no idea what the actual differences were.
I suppose the thinking with the forgiveness irons is newer players are going to be all over the face, so with that 20 yard drop off they will still feel as if they are hanging in distance wise with “advanced” players who constantly make good strikes with blades.
If the game improvement player makes a good strike and soars over the target, they won’t be as upset as missing short.
Psychologically speaking it’s a dick showing contest 😆
Thanks really appreciate that 👍 yeah exactly and they kinda just buy into the marketing, why wouldn't you I guess. It all kinda makes sense. They just don't tell you about the negative parts of mega strong lofted irons 😅 and the fact that they actually aren't really that much more forgiving 😅 but hey, that gotta sell clubs somehow. That's business, can't be too mad at them
I think you should have used an 8 iron for the first 2 irons to compare or use a six iron for the blade. To compare the same distance
If I have to go 140 yards with a blade I would have to use a 6 iron or a 130 yards with a 8 iron
Exactly that's one of the points of the video. A lot of people don't really know how much different these irons are in loft and therefore how differently a "7 iron" will perform. I have plans though to do a loft for loft test though with GI iron vs a blade soon
It would be interesting to see the forgiveness difference in the shorter irons that lose tech. For example, the 241 7 iron has tungsten in it, but the 8 doesn't. These single iron tests don't show the full difference across the set for varying tech.
@adambarnes4191 id say if there's virtually no difference between a massive chinky game improvement iron and a blade there will be no difference between a blade with a bit of tungsten and a blade without a bit of tungsten. The truth is even if it did anything it would be so marginal a test done by a human wouldn't show it.
@@epgolfstudios fair. Thanks for the reply. Enjoy the channel.
28 degree 7 iron. That is my 5 iron in the mp221. Ridiculous 😂
Fun Fact I have that exact setup with the same shaft on my JPX 923 HL irons!
Let's see
Hot Metal 28 deg
245 30 deg
241 34 deg.
So it's 90% about the loft.
Prob more like 95% 😂
@epgolfstudios Not going to haggle over 5%😂. I'm still a struggling golfer. I recently switched irons from Wilson D7 to Maltby TS3s (Think forged distance cavity backs) what made me switch was buying the 7 iron for trial. And I was impressed that the distance tradeoff was not that much but finally learned first hand the meaning of buttery. So that and the looks was what pushed me to change.
What got me hooked up on golf was the acoustics side of it.
These test results are definitely eye opening.
One thing to consider is the percentage of drop off. 20 yards on a 120 yard shot is a higher percentage drop off than 20 yards on a 140 yard shot. So it seems to be that the game improvement irons are more forgiving
Yeah you could argue that. But if you were to hit a blade 6i to get the 140 carry of the GI iron do I think the drop off would be much more than the GI iron? Not really, possibly a couple of yards more, so yes you could argue the GI is more forgiving by a small margin but it's so much worse in every other area, I don't think that makes up for that very small amount more of forgiveness
A lot of it is in the head and by that I mean the golfer's head not the iron head. Especially looking at a thin topline on blade long iron over a forced carry makes you feel like you're going to hit it badly and finally end up doing so. I think the key is to practice until you're comfortable and confident hitting them. I see most golfers at my local driving range hitting 7 irons, wedges, 3 woods and drivers but rarely take out long irons.
Cracker of a video mate
Thanks bud 👍
But we want to hear your opinion please! You’re the expert
Well I think it's pretty clear from the numbers and drop off we see on bad hits that I don't believe there is anywhere near as much difference in "forgiveness" as people believe. And that goes for woods too. In terms of ball flight more often than not at a slow swing speed strong lofts are terrible. But there will be exceptions depending on how you swing the club. So for that there's only one way to know what suits you best regardless of what speed you swing, you have to go get fitted. This video is exactly why I don't fit by handicap 👍
@ thank you!
@@paulb9512 🫡
great video ive been saying this forever. GI irons suck ass
Great. As always. Forgiveness is largely a myth. "Fitting" is also a myth, even by Ross who I would argue is one of the best "data driven trial and error facilitators" in the world. Would highly recommend him to anyone: best out of the box thinking HONEST chap out there.
Fitting aka Trying a variety of slightly different clubs to see what suit your swing & play style best is a myth .... uh ok bud.
This video analysis may be interesting to a point, but despite that, it’s based on fundamentally flawed assumptions, so therefore its effectively useless in my view. Hear me out!
I see these practices / assumptions repeated ad nauseum by every reviewer and industry representative.
1] Preoccupation with testing 7 irons of various types of clubs, despite large loft variations. You should have tested a 241 blade 6 against a 242 7 iron with loft adjusted to 30 degrees; or a 241 blade 5 iron against the JPX “shovel” iron. When you fit a 70 mph iron swing player, do you ever fit them using those comparisons? I bet you don’t. If you did, I bet those golfers would do far better with the loft compared blade than you or they would expect!
2] Relative difficulty squaring up a clubhead between different types of clubheads. You swung at 70 MPH and by your own admission are a skilled ball striker. Accordingly, you are skilled at squaring up any club at impact. You are not a robot, but closer than most amateurs. Ever wondered if different types of clubheads are more difficult for amateurs to square up than other clubheads?
All the testing published by manufacturers is based on robots. What is the single greatest difference between a robot test and any human testing? THE ROBOT TEST HAS A SINGLE PLANE PATH AND AN IRON GRIP THAT ALWAYS KEEPS THE CLUBHEAD SQUARE TO THAT PATH. NO HUMAN CAN DO THAT, NOT EVEN JACK OR TIGER!!!
So where is the analysis of how hard relatively, is it to square up different types of clubhead at the moment of impact?? You don’t analyse that. You don’t test that with a consistent handicap golfer whose iron swing is 70 mph.
Why would different clubheads be any different to square up at impact? Use your brains! If a driver / fairway wood has more fade bias the more weight you place towards the toe, meaning the face tends to square up more slowly, why doesn’t any reviewer question the wisdom of manufacturers placing more effective toe weight in irons with a combination of tungsten and longer clubheads? This is done to help the struggling slicer??? Give me a break!
What about “gear effect” and offset I can bet you are thinking. Well gear effect will only work for a toe hit if you have already squared up the clubface or are close to that. If the club is built so that toe weight slows the ability to square the clubface, gear effect is no help!
Offset is not a particularly helpful feature, especially large levels as it causes too much weight to be placed behind the shaft plane. In my experience this accentuates clubface lag initially, then faster rotation at impact, leading to inconsistent face angles at impact.
3] Comparative reviews. Look at any UA-cam reviewer comparisons over the years when new irons are tested together. Titleist / Mizuno/ Callaway etc. The skilled tester will start with the blade and invariably say four things.
“Not suitable for anyone except scratch golfers”. [ PATRONISING AND ASSUMPTIVE]
“Surprisingly easy to hit.”
“Easy to square up.”
“Doesn’t go as far as the other model 7 irons”.
SO HIT A SIX IRON INSTEAD!! What is so special about a number stamped on a club??
In conclusion, for goodness’ sake THINK about what these manufacturers are serving up and form “informed” conclusions of your own, don’t just regurgitate the same old theories and testing regimes
I fully expect this post to be deleted as soon as it’s read by the reviewer. Still, someone might read it before then.
Take care guys.
Don’t worry I’ll never delete comments, we are always up for open discussion and debate, you make some good points but like many others are thinking unbelievably specifically and missing the general point of the video. This is a test designed to test “forgiveness” or essentially relative drop off between 3 mega different types of heads that would essentially be marketed by the forgiveness element.
You could argue different clubs should be used (and this video is already in the making with us and will be launched soon) but there’s 2 specific reasons we don’t do that in this video. 1 head mass between different irons is very different and that more than anything would impact “forgiveness” and this for me is an eye opening video for the lesser informed golfing public who will not necessarily understand how different head club heads actually are in loft and what that would actually mean to the performance and the ball flight. So many believe the “forgiveness” hype and buy mega strong lofted irons without fully understanding how that could actually potentially be hurting them.
In terms of actually squaring up the club face in different iron types I’ve done thousands of fittings and lots of testing with different abilities and I don’t believe it has enough of a difference to worry about what iron head you go into. Yes most blades have the CG more heel side and this is where the idea that they are more “workable” comes from, and it may be correct scientifically but in the hands of a human it makes very little difference, especially in irons. Drivers are a different story because of the head size and shape mass repositioning can have much more of an effect.
Again same point works for gear effect. Head mass is very similar in corresponding irons and although CG locations will be slightly different from head to head as mentioned above it’s not enough to make a tangible difference to gear effect in a humans hand.
Agreed offset also doesn’t do much, just looks horrible.
Your point number 3 I’m not even sure what your point is here 😂 other reviewers generally just tell you exactly what the marketing says, which is generally nonsense. I generally do the opposite.
And your conclusion I completely agree with. I’ve never seen anyone do this sort of test before on YT and go against the conventional wisdom of what the manufacturers are saying. So it looks to me like your conclusion is saying it’s a great video and well done for opening up people’s eyes….so your absolutely welcome 🙏
Appreciate the comment 👍
@@epgolfstudios First, I am not criticising your credibility or good intentions, just saying your analysis is not complete enough for me.
Second, the relative “head mass” argument you suggest is a reason not to test different “numbered” clubs against each other, is a red herring. What you need to test is two different well made clubs that go 140 metres or 130 metres for the same mid handicap consistent swinging golfer PERIOD. [ preferably someone like a senior golfer who has been as low as, say 8 -10 handicap and is now 15 with a 6 iron swing speed of 70 mph.].
Nothing else, length head mass, etc has any relevance to such a test, assuming the swing weights and shaft types are comparable. If those two clubs are a 7 iron vs a 5 iron that is still a fair test.
In the real world, a golf game involves hitting an iron club [ excepting wedges ] on average only every 10 minutes or so, maximum frequency. Why is that relevant? Your test should be conducted to replicate that “lack of familiarity” by getting the test golfer to hit 20 shots with each club; 40 shots in total, in 4 sets of 10, alternating every shot between each different club, with a break of at least 5 minutes between each set of 10 shots.
You say in your opinion from experience head design makes little difference in an ability to square up a clubface. I will believe it when I see tangible shot dispersion evidence of such a test with no shots deleted, even the ones that don’t get past the ladies tee!
Thirdly, my third point in my original post is simply that the testing I see generally on Utube [ not you ] tends to push people away from even considering blades or short bladed shallow cavity back irons, as there is always some gratuitous comment that these clubs are only for the best players and that they “look scary”. What are we, all a bunch of little girls afraid of the “boogie man”? Butter knife? Thin top line? You don’t hit a club with the top line!
Fourthly, I can make an additional point here and that is I have heard it said that if many Pros use cavity back irons, [ and many do ] then that proves that blades cant be used successfully by amateurs.
I suspect though that the real reason some pros don’t use blades is that they are looking for some extra help to block out the left side of the course, because most of them want to hit fades, or are drawers of the ball and want to prevent a hook by using more fade biased clubs. EG Corey Conners and his Ping 230’s which are fade biased. Just look are the reviews of those irons. That’s not a good recipe for most amateurs!
Many pros who want to shape the ball both ways want the face control of blades; e.g, Rory, Tommy and Scottie
Another essay Jimbo, someone’s keen 😂 and again as much as we appreciate the support, feedback and suggestions we will keep doing our own content how we see fit 👍
@@epgolfstudios Well whatever floats your boat and whatever suits the needs of your viewers eh?
That a short enough "essay" for you? 🙃
You’re absolutely right there bud
Do that same test with a 70 year old senior, and you'd see a different result. Moving that pin forward defeated the whole purpose of what game improvement irons were designed for. The reason they buy them is because they cannot reach a 140 pin with a blade, because (A) they cannot find the small sweet spot like you can, (inconsistent ball striking) and (B) your average 70 MPH swinger isn't looking for spin. They want forgiveness for those duff strikes, and to get it rolling onto the green so they can putt. If it don't get there, they can't putt. "Well, use a 6 iron" I hear you say, Even more difficult to hit, that's why they buy Game improvement Irons.
A very broad answer. The whole point is getting a club that gets the best of your current delivery in terms of presented loft and clubhead speed. Therefore, achieving the optimal land angle based on the course you are playing as you said. This might mean game improvement irons are worse due to stupid low lofts and having the brilliant video as above the loss in forgiveness is absolutely marginal and not worth putting people in a club purely based on handicap.
Absolutely right Gareth 👌
I agree with Gareth below. And I personally would disagree with your point about if it were a senior golfer we would see a different result. You saw the difference in forgiveness between the heads. It's virtually nothing. One thing I will agree with is they may not be able to reach a 140 pin nor might it be the correct thing to do. And I'm not saying that it is. The reality is there would be a nice middle ground in terms of Iron design for them. Possibly a 790 bent weak or 770 (again no difference in forgiveness between them) and then they may even stop at a 7i and go to a hybrid for that 140 shot which would be infinitely easier to hit than any iron and give better numbers and a tangible forgiveness benefit. I kind of get your point but it's a very specific example and the point of my video is broad. It's not to say to anyone they "must play this" or "can't play that". It's simply to open people's eyes to the differences in club designs out there, not to write off specific clubs just because of marketing and also don't go to specific clubs just because of marketing. Ultimately my message is the same as every single other video that I've done. Get fitted with an open mind and find out what suits you best. That's the only answer there ever will be.
GI 7i is a 5i with a 7i shaft meant to separate a 70yo from his money when he should buy a hybrid or 9/11w. There are plenty of 70yo who swing faster than 50yo btw...marketing hype is for all ages and hc's. Less loft is never the answer for less speed. Ross' test was as goood as a person could do and shows that iron forgiveness is way more myth than magic in modern clubs.