The bottom line is.... There are many people that have skill levels much more advanced than you. The need for higher power levels are necessary to advance the development for individuals that are in a category above your capabilities along with advancing the development of different models of the bike itself. Not all interested riders are 5'5" 150 lbs, therefore the need for power increase is logical. 🤦.
@@emotobros find a gym, strengthen and exercise muscles you don't use. If your a beginner or even a novice then you don't need to be critical of people above your skill level. I'm sure the battery companies have already figured this out. 😂
@@thomaspartin191 Hey man, I can tell you aren't understanding so I'll make it more simple because we use a lot of technical terms. More power = more heat in the motor = motor failure. This has nothing to do with rider skill. Anyone of any skill level can hop on a road and hold the throttle wide open and burn down the bike.
@@emotobros face it, you shouldn't be critical of areas your not familiar with. Technically speaking, your equivalent body mass vs your mind strength is negative equation. Like I keep saying, the bike manufacturer along with the battery manufacturer have done research, done testing with real people. I'm almost positive these companies engineers have went to college for "technical" advancement, that's how they development the electric bike and you didn't. Nice try bro. 😂.
@@thomaspartin191 Areas I'm not familiar with? I'm a double engineering major and have been riding for 15 years. I'm one of the guys who you are acclaiming. Also, this video is not related to the bike or battery manufacturer which tells me even more that you didn't watch it. Some of the engineers at ASI don't even run 8000s on their bikes, so in a sense you're right. They do know what they're talking about. The 8000 is overkill for the SurRon, glad we are on the same page.
Awesome video guys!! I'm really glad you focused on "usable power" so many people focus on a single number and making power useable is so much more important than just a single peak power rating. This is the same reason that when MX racers such as Ricky Carmichael first started racing 450cc MX bikes with 50+HP, many of the pro racers actually detuned the engine to make it more usable and win races. Meanwhile ameature racers with the mindset of more power = faster were bolting on aftermarket exhaust and other power enhancers...by increasing power they were actually getting slower lap times. If you ride a modern EFI 450cc race bike and compare it to the early 450cc machines, you find a far smoother power delivery in a modern bike which can actually feel slower to your senses, but the "usable power" dramatically increases your race speed.
Totally agree. Like you mention, even the modern factory 450s are basically running the same HP as stock. It’s all about their crazy engine programming and traction control to make the power usable. Some people are stubborn though...
But...the bac8000 is not worst than the 4000 either. To me it's a in stock issue. I missed yours and with only 50 units coming this batch...I will probably miss it again. I got an bac8000 for only $200 more than a bac4000. It's on stock battery for now so hopefully tune from other company is sufficient for now. I would like to know once I get a battery upgrade will I be able to pay for a tune from you guys? Your tune should work the same regardless if it is a 8000 or 4000 right?
That's my thoughts also....plus you get the cool billitt aluminum cover/install kit from "the other guys" but EMB seems to be very knowledgeable with great videos! 👍
The technical content and quality of what you are delivering is amazing. There are a lot of guys in the ebike and especially sur ron world that are just trying to get in on the trend and cash out on the easy money selling products that they don't understand the technicalities on. That is clearly not the case with you guys. It's awesome to have the opportunity to own such well engineered hardware. I can't wait to buy a controller from ya'll and excited to see what you guys do in the future. I'm sure the battery you're working on will be a game changer. Bright, young, intelligent and educated. You guys will go far, keep up the good work.
Very good video! I'll be using the Nucular 24F controller this year. I race the Sur-ron with 200cc gas bikes in Enduro races. Sticking with the stock battery tho. The 24F and a 72v 48ah would be overkill and too hard to controller in a race like this.
Hey man, I’ve been watching your videos for a while. Actually, well tuned, you can handle the power without a problem in serious enduro races. I’ve tried both the BAC 4000 and the Nucular with 72V configured to 13kW and it’s really awesome. I’ve made videos on both controllers, have a look for yourself 😉
When will we see your new tire test video? Any thoughts on the 9 lbs Duro HF308 4 Ply 3.50-19 tire. Also awaiting for you guys to start selling wheels and chain offset shims.
i like the video but it was a gloomy grey day with glasses? i assume so we are not distracted by your eyes reading the prompt? all this was easy for me to understand as this may be the millionth time i deal with phase motors and electronics. why not shorten the video and over simplify by say volts= speed amps= power or torque watts= heat series= volts parallel= amps oh crap bed time!!! 4am
Still - There are new motors in the works that will be released that will fit directly into a surron, the BAC8000 wont be under powered for those - future proof the bike with an 8000! :D
Motor can handle more power for couple of seconds, but unless riding on the road, it’s complicated to handle more than 13kW riding off-road. Too short of a wheelbase. Tried 15 and it was too much already for me.
@@emotobros I don't think so....I'd be willing to try it. Bike is so light that the 70/100 tires provide as much traction as a big a** 240+lb 450cc 120/× tire.....I would love, absolutely love a bolt in motor swap upgrade!
Hi. I'm planing to upgrade controller, battery, suspension and brakes. In that case, can I buy light bee S as a base? Is S and X frame and motor the same?
As an engineer, this was a great explanation and good refresher for me. I just got a surron last year and just started looking into getting some upgrades. Can’t wait to post some videos.
I'm ready to buy a 4000 and if I understand you, staying with the stock 60 volt battery and your 60v tune is the best way to go for single track and off road mountain climbing torque. How many controllers are you going to have for sale in this next batch?
Went there, even with the bypassed stock battery, you’d want to upgrade the battery at some point. 60V can do fine, it’s just that the cells of the stock battery are t capable of more than 120A. So you’ll be limited to around 8kW.
One more reason for a clutch is the safety aspect of killing power to the rear wheel. It’s kinda crazy that they don’t have a clutch if you ask me. I’ve competed on MC’s in both TRIALS & GNCC/ENDUROS for many many years and couldn’t imagine doing this with out a clutch. What I really Like is the ones used on the ELECTRIC MOTION bikes. They have been doing it for over 5 years now with great results..Yes I’m sure it would have raised the price on the SUR-RON to a price they were not looking for. I’ve been saying that a clutch is needed for electric MC’s when I first saw these bikes coming to market. Once again a great video from y’all and one more reason for you to be the only one’s I’m distributing my parts threw!🤝👊👏👏👍
Not all Electric Motion bikes are equipped with a clutch. I’m not saying it’s useless, just that it’s not always needed. Also, an electric motor can cut the juice far quicker than a petrol engine.
Disagree about clutch. When petrol bikes fall over, no one pulls in the clutch....and if the throttle is stuck open, it's just as dangerous. As far as throttle control.....coming from two stokes with insane powerbands.....even at 13.5kw the throttle control is so much easier/smoother imo. Much more difficult to break the wheel loose in corners, despite having great torque/acceleration....it's such a strange feeling...one common with other e-mx bikes like the Alta.
@@ScottPaulConley well...most enduro/MX bikes nowadays are equipped with an auto or slipper clutch---> motocrossactionmag.com/ten-things-about-auto-clutches/ specially in competition like supercross ;)
Maybe your BAC 4000 controller s are programmed better . When I had one from those thieves at ERT ( Alan Hu ). It would cut out constantly with the 72v battery. I have the 8000 now and no issues. I would agree at level 9 with the Eggrider/ BAC 8000. It’s borderline uncomfortable.
E = Mc 2 So how much more efficient is the electric motor compared to a gasoline engine. Can they even be compared? Why is a electric motor considered more environmentally clean when the manufacturing of components is more detrimental to the environment than gas engines? How can the electric motor be more clean when it still takes fossilized fuels to power the battery, and manufacture parts. Why not just build fusion batteries or nuclear powered bikes? Are we building a 3rd world society in America? I really enjoyed your tutorial. I hope one day I will ride one of your bikes. Outstanding ! Never limit yourself or your dreams.
Ebike is far more efficient but lithium is far less energy dense than gas. Long term goal would be everything is ran off fully renewable. Unrealistic though in a short timeframe.
This is not true sorry. I'm 100kg and have MX forks. The bike is underpowered for me on a bac 4k and 72v. Especially on steep trails when I'm stopped midway up it doesn't have the phase amps to start again on stock sprocket
Yeah it’s definitely underpowered but our main point is that by pushing that extra motor current the motor overheats so quick. With new motors coming out there is a much more clear spot in the market for BAC8000 sized controllers.
I've been in the offroad scene for many years, what you guys are learning is its better to be able to control the vehicle, suspension, before higher power outputs.
To avoid jerky throttle you can Can change throttle curve or up battery amps and lower max phase amps for more high rpm power. Gotta be careful not to overheat the motor though.
I’m a 240lb guy that overheats the stock surron controller when I do big climbs. I can only imagine the overheating coming this summer. Already running a 58t sprocket. Would it make sense to get the bac8000 and run it at around 9-11kw allowing big overhead to prevent overheating.
@@TheGiantLender Shouldn't be too much of an issue at 10kW. The issue is that the more power you draw the more heat you build in the motor and the BAC8000 isn't going to help with that. We have guys running close to 20kW on our tune with no overheating issues. You just want to ride at a power level that will preserve the motor and at that level the controller should be fine.
They are different. How the differences effect the max power capabilities, that we don’t know. Since they’re different, it’d make sense that the x160 was a lower power rating.
im just looking for a 60mph top speed to keep up on the highway along with more range im looking at the 60v 42ah because i mostly need range rather than speed. i dont wanna spend a whole 3k plus just for an upgrade but if i was to go with a new controller i would go with e moto bros bac 4000. not only because of the display but the options to limit the power when needed. unfortunately you guys have limited supply so i might just have to get the bac 8000. if im getting a 72v battery i might as well get high AH. surronster has a 32 AH. i might go for the 40ah one last thing about all of this i need the new controllers to be water resistant is the same way the x controller is. i might just have to 3d print something to cover it i ride all terrain. mostly on the road but i want this bike setup to do everything. anyone have any opinions on this?
To be honest if you need a bike to ride on the highway there are a lot better options than the sur ron that are actually street legal and suited for continuous highway speeds.
@@emotobros i guess ill be more specific. So far i got two shinko tires with fat tubes. The bike feels great on the road now along with ripping it up in the dirt because i got the dual sport tires. I quite litterally use it for everything. I take it to skate parks. I ride up stairs. I jump dirt. I get on the highway. It already feels good to ride i just need that little extra power, not necessarily speed but range. So my question is the more expensive batteries worth it? Like the 72v 48ah? If i am going 50 to 60 mph a lot is the bac 8000 better for that? Or can the bac 4000 handle constant 60mph? I live in nyc so people aren't going 80mph everywhere. Everything is more tightly packed together that to be honest makes it the perfect bike for it. Im looking for a range solution for the summer time because i dont wanna be stuck out there on them good days
@@emotobros Thanks for the replies I know I need both but I figured I’d start with a controller wish I had the funds for both at the same time didn’t want to get the battery first because the controller I have won’t work with it…You guys have any idea when the new shipments coming
Awsome video, as a DIY builder working on a 32k (273hub) build..I love the solid info; this was truly a breath of fresh air for youtube. With that said my build is built entirely for street speed runs. More videos like this need to flood youtube. Great work 💪
That was an amazing video. Very helpful, thank you! Great way to explain field weakening especially. I just bought a Sting R MX4 with a BAC8000 and I'm trying to learn everything I can about it. I'm waiting for GLE to authorize the dashboard app for me right now. Why do they do that?
ASI 8000 is serious overkill i agree, unless you wanna set ebike top speed records or something but the motor will burn out. Hell even the 4000 is overkill, peak power 72v @ 400amps? 30,000 watts? Thats like death power on a ebike. I built an electric bike long ago, 72v @ 40 amps.. thats 3000 watts.. topping out @ 40mph and that scared me. about efficiency, higher voltage is more efficient, and about 10 years ago, people on endless sphere were making ebikes that topped out @ 120v going about 60mph. But then this dude came out and smashed all top speed records in his sandals on a garage sale looking bmx bike with a welded frame attached to a hub motor. That motor had high wind (i believe) motor.. meaning for a given volt, it will do more turns. So instead of going crazy high voltage, he went small radius tire, high winding motor, medium voltage and LOTS of amps. Since then, people toned down the voltage and got fast spinning motors with lots of amps. Direct drive electrical motors love RPMs. The faster it spins, the better. So if you want more efficiency figure out how to make the motor spin faster.. more volts, or smaller wheels. Mid drive instead of hub motor.
Watching this vid, I feel like I accidentally stumbled into a classroom at MIT on electrical engineering... and I'm like "Oh $4!T, this is way over my head", but I find a seat and sit through the whole class... Awesome vid and explanation. Thank you!
I've always wanted a surron e bike just cant afford it as i have kids. was going to use it to get to work. until i seen the price 6,398 Canadian. would be awsome if u guys could do little charity work and send me one lol
So if I would get the 72v 45 with the asi bac 4000 would that make the bike get too hot i want to be able to do wheelies but I would also like a little distance
@@emotobros I'm thinking about ordering a surron the kit and the 4000 this week but i can't find any charts to how long any of these battery last on eco or sport
@@onlyboss2245 there's no more eco/sport mode with the bac controllers....EMB has a display that you can change power levels from what I've seen/heard....
@@onlyboss2245 unfortunately not....it's so variable depending on weight, incline/decline of road, speed you are going, rear sprocket size, etc, etc...suronster has some great range videos though....
Great video. Where you confused me is when you said that kwh is the most important number to look at when looking at how long a battery will last, and then went on to do an example where you used ah to look at how long a battery would last. My understanding is that if two batteries have equal ah, but one has a higher voltage, then the higher voltage one will go further or last longer given all else is equal. Makes sense because the kwh would be higher. But how does this play into calculating how long a battery will last? In your example, you completely left the voltage of the battery out of the equation, but instead talked about the power draw at 60v. Are you able to shed any light on my confusion? How would the voltage of the battery play into this calculation and change it?
i didn't understand everything the first go. but it's a treat listing to you. no uhms or anything. So you sell the controller with your own tune, so you'd protect that so others don't steal it. I'd really like to have a regen foot brake and a speed limmiter. would i be able to add that myself? or is this already an option on your controller?
New to Sur Ron - the battery power options are pretty overwhelming. Since so many are upping their batteries to 72V, why is it Sur Ron or someone else doesn't produce a 72V motor that is less likely to get fried by over-powering it?
There are a couple companies who are actually doing just that! Of course this leads to a TON of other issues. Namely: -Swing arm is too weak for more power. -chain is to small and already stretches very fast at 10-12kW -the bike is entirely mountain bike components -no real way to put down double or triple what a BAC4000 and stock motor can already put down. Certainly an upgrade more geared toward road riders!
This is awesome. I was a physics student for 3 semesters and completed a B.S. in ME yet watching a video about the Surron is the first time I've ever heard of "phase amps" and "magnetic saturation"
Thank you so much bro the whole part on phase current helped me so much I think this is why my BBSHD with the asi bac855 keeps getting burning hot despite if I run it in my torque gear aka 1st gear the whole time it still gets burning hot. I was always told to run it this way because I was told on that motor that you want the motor spin as high rpms as possible to keep it running cool and seen some videos with guys pushing high power but on bigger rear sprockets and the motors run cooler (on the BBSHD we change the front chainring instead as opposed to surrons with the rear sprocket due to the derailer as I'm sure you know). This all makes sense to me now after your explanation and I can finally get why a 72v gives more speed despite the bac855 adjust it's amp draw down for the 72v thus producing the same max watts on a 72v battery as it will do on a 52v battery. On the 52v battery the bac855 raises the amps some than what it runs the 72v at. I'm from the drone world and so I always knew about the kv of a electric motor and how it relates to speed and which battery works best with which kV and so on. I sometimes wonder if they make a higher kV motor you can slap in the surrons and that would effectively be similar to running a 72v battery on the stock one.
THANK YOU!!!! have been researching sur ron for 2 years+. Specifically what pros/cons and RISKS of upgrading would be and the upgrade will certainly happen shortly after I buy the Sur Ron. this gave me VERY good info that I didn't find elsewhere about the Upgrade. Thanks SOOO much
Yeah it’s fairly situation dependent on the rider and type of terrain which we didn’t cover adequately in this video. For example, we’ve overheated the stock motor on the 4000 plenty of times on short hill climbs. In that instance, the 8000 would’ve just exacerbated the issue. Riding down the road or on more wide open trails, it can take more without overheating.
There isn't like a single value that I can give you for that for a number of reasons. Magnetic saturation of a motor depends on load, throttle amount and however you have your bike set up power wise. We don't have the proper equipment to analyze the Sur Ron or else we would. As far as I am aware nobody has published any analysis of the Sur Ron that I could reference. You can get a general idea of magnetic saturation just by riding your bike and experimenting with different things though. For instance, imagine you are riding your Sur Ron up a large hill that has a grade that increases with elevation. You are ridding up the hill full throttle, and at some point, as it gets steeper, the load will be too much for the motor to continue accelerating and you will begin to slow down while still pumping power into your motor. This is your motor is reaching magnetic saturation. Here is a link to a video that analyzes brushless motor saturation and it may help you advance your understanding of the subject: ua-cam.com/video/8x0LnLq17dc/v-deo.html
Good question. You can think of power levels of a percentage of power based on the power level you set. For example, say you set the max throttle power in 'ASI settings' to 10,000W. At level 9, you'd have 100% power, so 10,000W. level 8 gives 90% power, so 9,000W. Each power level you go down drops the max power and max speed by 10%.
It’s not that the 8000 isn’t enjoyable it’s that it costs $200 more and the amount of power that the SurRons chassis can handle is capable of being output by the 4000.
Informative as always guys, thank you! Hoping you might consider providing some more in depth info on batteries - proper charging procedures , break in (?), cooling times, and avoiding crystallization. The charging directions from Sur Ron are inconsistent with Retailers forum instructions. More info please ...
Such high quality content as always, this is information the people neeeed
No kidding!
This guy videos are lit🔥
Do you think I should put a 4000 on my lbx
Not hating but can’t the bac8k do max 840 phase amps u said 600 about unless your meaning like average 650 but max 840
We’ve never seen anyone successfully run 840 or even above 700 for that matter but yes, technically the controller is capable of 840.
The bottom line is.... There are many people that have skill levels much more advanced than you. The need for higher power levels are necessary to advance the development for individuals that are in a category above your capabilities along with advancing the development of different models of the bike itself. Not all interested riders are 5'5" 150 lbs, therefore the need for power increase is logical. 🤦.
Did you even watch the video 😂 completely missed the point
@@emotobros find a gym, strengthen and exercise muscles you don't use. If your a beginner or even a novice then you don't need to be critical of people above your skill level. I'm sure the battery companies have already figured this out. 😂
@@thomaspartin191 Hey man, I can tell you aren't understanding so I'll make it more simple because we use a lot of technical terms. More power = more heat in the motor = motor failure. This has nothing to do with rider skill. Anyone of any skill level can hop on a road and hold the throttle wide open and burn down the bike.
@@emotobros face it, you shouldn't be critical of areas your not familiar with. Technically speaking, your equivalent body mass vs your mind strength is negative equation. Like I keep saying, the bike manufacturer along with the battery manufacturer have done research, done testing with real people. I'm almost positive these companies engineers have went to college for "technical" advancement, that's how they development the electric bike and you didn't. Nice try bro. 😂.
@@thomaspartin191 Areas I'm not familiar with? I'm a double engineering major and have been riding for 15 years. I'm one of the guys who you are acclaiming. Also, this video is not related to the bike or battery manufacturer which tells me even more that you didn't watch it. Some of the engineers at ASI don't even run 8000s on their bikes, so in a sense you're right. They do know what they're talking about. The 8000 is overkill for the SurRon, glad we are on the same page.
Awesome video guys!! I'm really glad you focused on "usable power" so many people focus on a single number and making power useable is so much more important than just a single peak power rating. This is the same reason that when MX racers such as Ricky Carmichael first started racing 450cc MX bikes with 50+HP, many of the pro racers actually detuned the engine to make it more usable and win races. Meanwhile ameature racers with the mindset of more power = faster were bolting on aftermarket exhaust and other power enhancers...by increasing power they were actually getting slower lap times. If you ride a modern EFI 450cc race bike and compare it to the early 450cc machines, you find a far smoother power delivery in a modern bike which can actually feel slower to your senses, but the "usable power" dramatically increases your race speed.
Totally agree. Like you mention, even the modern factory 450s are basically running the same HP as stock. It’s all about their crazy engine programming and traction control to make the power usable. Some people are stubborn though...
But...the bac8000 is not worst than the 4000 either. To me it's a in stock issue. I missed yours and with only 50 units coming this batch...I will probably miss it again. I got an bac8000 for only $200 more than a bac4000. It's on stock battery for now so hopefully tune from other company is sufficient for now. I would like to know once I get a battery upgrade will I be able to pay for a tune from you guys? Your tune should work the same regardless if it is a 8000 or 4000 right?
That's my thoughts also....plus you get the cool billitt aluminum cover/install kit from "the other guys" but EMB seems to be very knowledgeable with great videos! 👍
The technical content and quality of what you are delivering is amazing. There are a lot of guys in the ebike and especially sur ron world that are just trying to get in on the trend and cash out on the easy money selling products that they don't understand the technicalities on. That is clearly not the case with you guys. It's awesome to have the opportunity to own such well engineered hardware. I can't wait to buy a controller from ya'll and excited to see what you guys do in the future. I'm sure the battery you're working on will be a game changer. Bright, young, intelligent and educated. You guys will go far, keep up the good work.
E = Mc 2
It’s a great day when ya have a new video 😁
You guys are great. This clear some many things i have on my head by what type battery i want to run on my x260..
I have been looking for this information thanks!
Very good video! I'll be using the Nucular 24F controller this year. I race the Sur-ron with 200cc gas bikes in Enduro races. Sticking with the stock battery tho. The 24F and a 72v 48ah would be overkill and too hard to controller in a race like this.
Hey man, I’ve been watching your videos for a while. Actually, well tuned, you can handle the power without a problem in serious enduro races. I’ve tried both the BAC 4000 and the Nucular with 72V configured to 13kW and it’s really awesome.
I’ve made videos on both controllers, have a look for yourself 😉
I was following your channel too ...but you changed the name ??
@@themountain59 who? Me? I changed the name a while ago!
@@MTO_Brothers I changed mine late last year. Going to be playing around with some more ebikes and Tesla!
very interesting! looking forward to the time we finally will update to bac4000 / 72V Batterie
OK OK your qualified to come setup my sur run just let me know when your coming. lol
Good video thx for sharing
When will we see your new tire test video? Any thoughts on the 9 lbs Duro HF308 4 Ply 3.50-19 tire. Also awaiting for you guys to start selling wheels and chain offset shims.
It’s in the works.
i like the video but it was a gloomy grey day with glasses? i assume so we are not distracted by your eyes reading the prompt?
all this was easy for me to understand as this may be the millionth time i deal with phase motors and electronics.
why not shorten the video and over simplify by say
volts= speed
amps= power or torque
watts= heat
series= volts
parallel= amps
oh crap bed time!!! 4am
Still - There are new motors in the works that will be released that will fit directly into a surron, the BAC8000 wont be under powered for those - future proof the bike with an 8000! :D
It’s more of a chassis issue than motor issue. Can only put so much to the ground...
@@emotobros Fair enough
Motor can handle more power for couple of seconds, but unless riding on the road, it’s complicated to handle more than 13kW riding off-road. Too short of a wheelbase. Tried 15 and it was too much already for me.
@@emotobros I don't think so....I'd be willing to try it. Bike is so light that the 70/100 tires provide as much traction as a big a** 240+lb 450cc 120/× tire.....I would love, absolutely love a bolt in motor swap upgrade!
@@ScottPaulConley no offense but I think its pointless...the bike will rip apart...Is that worth it ??
Hi. I'm planing to upgrade controller, battery, suspension and brakes. In that case, can I buy light bee S as a base? Is S and X frame and motor the same?
As an engineer, this was a great explanation and good refresher for me. I just got a surron last year and just started looking into getting some upgrades. Can’t wait to post some videos.
You can put a Hayabusa engine in a dirtbike but you wont win a enduro run with it ;)...Very nice and helpful video, boys! Keep up your awesome work.
Because Hayabusa engine is heavy
@@taaniel-stenoksanen2269 no its too powerful ....look at the 990 KTM...won several times the Dakar...same weight , less power ;)
@@themountain59 ktm 990 is heavy like mammoth. 500 exc is best performance and lightweight
@@taaniel-stenoksanen2269 how old are you ?? 10 ??
I'm ready to buy a 4000 and if I understand you, staying with the stock 60 volt battery and your 60v tune is the best way to go for single track and off road mountain climbing torque. How many controllers are you going to have for sale in this next batch?
Will have ~50 kits
Went there, even with the bypassed stock battery, you’d want to upgrade the battery at some point. 60V can do fine, it’s just that the cells of the stock battery are t capable of more than 120A. So you’ll be limited to around 8kW.
@@emotobros not asking when but how soon will the next batch be available? Weeks? Months? Just got to make sure I have enough c notes by then. 😂
Are the controllers only for the Surron? Or can I put it on my other 72v ???
One more reason for a clutch is the safety aspect of killing power to the rear wheel. It’s kinda crazy that they don’t have a clutch if you ask me. I’ve competed on MC’s in both TRIALS & GNCC/ENDUROS for many many years and couldn’t imagine doing this with out a clutch. What I really Like is the ones used on the ELECTRIC MOTION bikes. They have been doing it for over 5 years now with great results..Yes I’m sure it would have raised the price on the SUR-RON to a price they were not looking for. I’ve been saying that a clutch is needed for electric MC’s when I first saw these bikes coming to market.
Once again a great video from y’all and one more reason for you to be the only one’s I’m distributing my parts threw!🤝👊👏👏👍
Not all Electric Motion bikes are equipped with a clutch. I’m not saying it’s useless, just that it’s not always needed. Also, an electric motor can cut the juice far quicker than a petrol engine.
Disagree about clutch. When petrol bikes fall over, no one pulls in the clutch....and if the throttle is stuck open, it's just as dangerous. As far as throttle control.....coming from two stokes with insane powerbands.....even at 13.5kw the throttle control is so much easier/smoother imo. Much more difficult to break the wheel loose in corners, despite having great torque/acceleration....it's such a strange feeling...one common with other e-mx bikes like the Alta.
Go buy another dirt bike 🤣
@@ScottPaulConley well...most enduro/MX bikes nowadays are equipped with an auto or slipper clutch---> motocrossactionmag.com/ten-things-about-auto-clutches/ specially in competition like supercross ;)
@@MTO_Brothers
I’m not talking wanting it for gas motor.
Maybe your BAC 4000 controller s are programmed better . When I had one from those thieves at ERT ( Alan Hu ). It would cut out constantly with the 72v battery. I have the 8000 now and no issues. I would agree at level 9 with the Eggrider/ BAC 8000. It’s borderline uncomfortable.
We sell them and understand the programming aspect quite well. We are all to aware of the struggles ERT had with his tunes.
E = Mc 2 So how much more efficient is the electric motor compared to a gasoline engine. Can they even be compared? Why is a electric motor considered more environmentally clean when the manufacturing of components is more detrimental to the environment than gas engines? How can the electric motor be more clean when it still takes fossilized fuels to power the battery, and manufacture parts.
Why not just build fusion batteries or nuclear powered bikes? Are we building a 3rd world society in America? I really enjoyed your tutorial. I hope one day I will ride one of your bikes. Outstanding ! Never limit yourself or your dreams.
Ebike is far more efficient but lithium is far less energy dense than gas.
Long term goal would be everything is ran off fully renewable. Unrealistic though in a short timeframe.
This is not true sorry. I'm 100kg and have MX forks. The bike is underpowered for me on a bac 4k and 72v. Especially on steep trails when I'm stopped midway up it doesn't have the phase amps to start again on stock sprocket
Yeah it’s definitely underpowered but our main point is that by pushing that extra motor current the motor overheats so quick. With new motors coming out there is a much more clear spot in the market for BAC8000 sized controllers.
Is a bac 4,000 kit water proof?
The only reason to go with the BAC8000 is that it looks better filling that gap in front of the bike. hahahaha
lol
Any chance we can get an update on your website for the BAC 4000? Still says next batch expected February.
Hey, I'm looking to upgrade my bike. Where can I buy the upgrades?
Check description for part list, have links to pretty much everything.
I've been in the offroad scene for many years, what you guys are learning is its better to be able to control the vehicle, suspension, before higher power outputs.
Can I use the BAC8000 on the Surron Firefly Streetlegal? Or only on Surron X? And does the BAC8000 effect the Lights and Blinkers?
Pretty sure it works on either. Never tested lights and blinkers so not sure on that one.
To avoid jerky throttle you can Can change throttle curve or up battery amps and lower max phase amps for more high rpm power. Gotta be careful not to overheat the motor though.
holy 🤯information overload lol
Very useful in the fact that you can't have it alway there is no magic money tree be happy with what you've got
This is literally the video I needed thank you for explaining.
WOW you guys are awesome !!!!! Im looking at buying a Surron and then your kits.
I’m a 240lb guy that overheats the stock surron controller when I do big climbs. I can only imagine the overheating coming this summer.
Already running a 58t sprocket.
Would it make sense to get the bac8000 and run it at around 9-11kw allowing big overhead to prevent overheating.
What kind of heat do you ride in?
@@emotobros 80 degrees lately when my controller hit thermal limit. Summer gets up to 90-110 degrees
Unless your going top speed for extended periods of time the BAC4000 is more than sufficient. That was kind of the point of this whole video.
@@TheGiantLender Shouldn't be too much of an issue at 10kW. The issue is that the more power you draw the more heat you build in the motor and the BAC8000 isn't going to help with that. We have guys running close to 20kW on our tune with no overheating issues. You just want to ride at a power level that will preserve the motor and at that level the controller should be fine.
Is there a difference between 160 and 260 motors? Because I know battery and controller are different
They are different. How the differences effect the max power capabilities, that we don’t know. Since they’re different, it’d make sense that the x160 was a lower power rating.
im just looking for a 60mph top speed to keep up on the highway along with more range
im looking at the 60v 42ah because i mostly need range rather than speed. i dont wanna spend a whole 3k plus just for an upgrade
but if i was to go with a new controller i would go with e moto bros bac 4000. not only because of the display but the options to limit the power when needed. unfortunately you guys have limited supply so i might just have to get the bac 8000.
if im getting a 72v battery i might as well get high AH. surronster has a 32 AH. i might go for the 40ah
one last thing about all of this i need the new controllers to be water resistant is the same way the x controller is. i might just have to 3d print something to cover it
i ride all terrain. mostly on the road but i want this bike setup to do everything.
anyone have any opinions on this?
To be honest if you need a bike to ride on the highway there are a lot better options than the sur ron that are actually street legal and suited for continuous highway speeds.
@@emotobros i guess ill be more specific. So far i got two shinko tires with fat tubes. The bike feels great on the road now along with ripping it up in the dirt because i got the dual sport tires. I quite litterally use it for everything. I take it to skate parks. I ride up stairs. I jump dirt. I get on the highway. It already feels good to ride i just need that little extra power, not necessarily speed but range. So my question is the more expensive batteries worth it? Like the 72v 48ah? If i am going 50 to 60 mph a lot is the bac 8000 better for that? Or can the bac 4000 handle constant 60mph? I live in nyc so people aren't going 80mph everywhere. Everything is more tightly packed together that to be honest makes it the perfect bike for it. Im looking for a range solution for the summer time because i dont wanna be stuck out there on them good days
@@tintin6291 no highway for the surron! Its an upgraded Mountainbike , not a scrotch rocket :P
@@themountain59 whether im on the highway or not im still going max speed on the road
U need a zero
What about the qs205? BAC8000 OR 4000?
I have an x160 can the 4000 be programed to a 48v? so I can upgrade battery later
It can be programmed, but the x160 motor is not the same as the x260 and can’t take as much power.
@@emotobros i figured it's better than getting a x controller, but i don't need crazy power yet..looking for more range and a little more top speed
More range and speed needs a controller+battery combination
@@emotobros Thanks for the replies I know I need both but I figured I’d start with a controller wish I had the funds for both at the same time didn’t want to get the battery first because the controller I have won’t work with it…You guys have any idea when the new shipments coming
Guys, 😞 i have the money for bike, 72v battery n 4000, but i just don’t know! I’m so lost n stuff ain’t even in stock!😞😞😞
Awsome video, as a DIY builder working on a 32k (273hub) build..I love the solid info; this was truly a breath of fresh air for youtube. With that said my build is built entirely for street speed runs. More videos like this need to flood youtube. Great work 💪
That was an amazing video. Very helpful, thank you! Great way to explain field weakening especially. I just bought a Sting R MX4 with a BAC8000 and I'm trying to learn everything I can about it. I'm waiting for GLE to authorize the dashboard app for me right now. Why do they do that?
Still buying one just for he bragging rights.
ASI 8000 is serious overkill i agree, unless you wanna set ebike top speed records or something but the motor will burn out. Hell even the 4000 is overkill, peak power 72v @ 400amps? 30,000 watts? Thats like death power on a ebike. I built an electric bike long ago, 72v @ 40 amps.. thats 3000 watts.. topping out @ 40mph and that scared me.
about efficiency, higher voltage is more efficient, and about 10 years ago, people on endless sphere were making ebikes that topped out @ 120v going about 60mph. But then this dude came out and smashed all top speed records in his sandals on a garage sale looking bmx bike with a welded frame attached to a hub motor. That motor had high wind (i believe) motor.. meaning for a given volt, it will do more turns. So instead of going crazy high voltage, he went small radius tire, high winding motor, medium voltage and LOTS of amps. Since then, people toned down the voltage and got fast spinning motors with lots of amps. Direct drive electrical motors love RPMs. The faster it spins, the better.
So if you want more efficiency figure out how to make the motor spin faster.. more volts, or smaller wheels. Mid drive instead of hub motor.
You guys are freakin awesome. Definitely buying a kit from you guys when your next batch drops. When are you restocking?
Friday at 6PM PST
e moto brooss
Watching this vid, I feel like I accidentally stumbled into a classroom at MIT on electrical engineering... and I'm like "Oh $4!T, this is way over my head", but I find a seat and sit through the whole class... Awesome vid and explanation. Thank you!
amazing video thanks guys!!!
There is a lot going on here, but after the second watch thru I got ya
I've always wanted a surron e bike just cant afford it as i have kids. was going to use it to get to work. until i seen the price 6,398 Canadian. would be awsome if u guys could do little charity work and send me one lol
Man. 😳 this is the info I been looking for
what do you guys think of the ko nano controller?
Hard to say, stats look decent for sure! Haven’t seen any reviews yet. We look forward to testing them 🤘🏽
So if I would get the 72v 45 with the asi bac 4000 would that make the bike get too hot i want to be able to do wheelies but I would also like a little distance
If you run reasonable power levels with that equipment you won’t have any issues
@@emotobros I'm thinking about ordering a surron the kit and the 4000 this week but i can't find any charts to how long any of these battery last on eco or sport
@@onlyboss2245 there's no more eco/sport mode with the bac controllers....EMB has a display that you can change power levels from what I've seen/heard....
@@ScottPaulConley either way it still should be a chart somewhere showing the estimated distance for each battery right ?
@@onlyboss2245 unfortunately not....it's so variable depending on weight, incline/decline of road, speed you are going, rear sprocket size, etc, etc...suronster has some great range videos though....
Great video. Where you confused me is when you said that kwh is the most important number to look at when looking at how long a battery will last, and then went on to do an example where you used ah to look at how long a battery would last. My understanding is that if two batteries have equal ah, but one has a higher voltage, then the higher voltage one will go further or last longer given all else is equal. Makes sense because the kwh would be higher. But how does this play into calculating how long a battery will last? In your example, you completely left the voltage of the battery out of the equation, but instead talked about the power draw at 60v. Are you able to shed any light on my confusion? How would the voltage of the battery play into this calculation and change it?
i didn't understand everything the first go. but it's a treat listing to you. no uhms or anything.
So you sell the controller with your own tune, so you'd protect that so others don't steal it. I'd really like to have a regen foot brake and a speed limmiter. would i be able to add that myself? or is this already an option on your controller?
Great video! This may save a few speed demons.
New to Sur Ron - the battery power options are pretty overwhelming. Since so many are upping their batteries to 72V, why is it Sur Ron or someone else doesn't produce a 72V motor that is less likely to get fried by over-powering it?
There are a couple companies who are actually doing just that! Of course this leads to a TON of other issues. Namely:
-Swing arm is too weak for more power.
-chain is to small and already stretches very fast at 10-12kW
-the bike is entirely mountain bike components
-no real way to put down double or triple what a BAC4000 and stock motor can already put down.
Certainly an upgrade more geared toward road riders!
looking forward to restock of BAC4000
What battery? I’m so lost? A 72v bla bla bla? Can u or someone just give me a link or more info? 😞 im so obsessed with this bike! N have money for it
This is awesome. I was a physics student for 3 semesters and completed a B.S. in ME yet watching a video about the Surron is the first time I've ever heard of "phase amps" and "magnetic saturation"
Exactly what I was looking for can’t wait to watch the rest of your videos👍🏻
Good points, in the 1940's and 50s there were GP 125 bikes that could do 80% of the top speed of 1000cc bikes. Ebike power posing is normal.
Thank you so much bro the whole part on phase current helped me so much I think this is why my BBSHD with the asi bac855 keeps getting burning hot despite if I run it in my torque gear aka 1st gear the whole time it still gets burning hot. I was always told to run it this way because I was told on that motor that you want the motor spin as high rpms as possible to keep it running cool and seen some videos with guys pushing high power but on bigger rear sprockets and the motors run cooler (on the BBSHD we change the front chainring instead as opposed to surrons with the rear sprocket due to the derailer as I'm sure you know). This all makes sense to me now after your explanation and I can finally get why a 72v gives more speed despite the bac855 adjust it's amp draw down for the 72v thus producing the same max watts on a 72v battery as it will do on a 52v battery. On the 52v battery the bac855 raises the amps some than what it runs the 72v at. I'm from the drone world and so I always knew about the kv of a electric motor and how it relates to speed and which battery works best with which kV and so on. I sometimes wonder if they make a higher kV motor you can slap in the surrons and that would effectively be similar to running a 72v battery on the stock one.
THANK YOU!!!! have been researching sur ron for 2 years+. Specifically what pros/cons and RISKS of upgrading would be and the upgrade will certainly happen shortly after I buy the Sur Ron. this gave me VERY good info that I didn't find elsewhere about the Upgrade. Thanks SOOO much
After running your 8000 kit for a while now, I can say forsure that the stock motor can handle more than what the 4000 can deliver.
Yeah it’s fairly situation dependent on the rider and type of terrain which we didn’t cover adequately in this video. For example, we’ve overheated the stock motor on the 4000 plenty of times on short hill climbs. In that instance, the 8000 would’ve just exacerbated the issue. Riding down the road or on more wide open trails, it can take more without overheating.
Great video, do you know saturation point/curve for surron motor ?
There isn't like a single value that I can give you for that for a number of reasons. Magnetic saturation of a motor depends on load, throttle amount and however you have your bike set up power wise. We don't have the proper equipment to analyze the Sur Ron or else we would. As far as I am aware nobody has published any analysis of the Sur Ron that I could reference. You can get a general idea of magnetic saturation just by riding your bike and experimenting with different things though. For instance, imagine you are riding your Sur Ron up a large hill that has a grade that increases with elevation. You are ridding up the hill full throttle, and at some point, as it gets steeper, the load will be too much for the motor to continue accelerating and you will begin to slow down while still pumping power into your motor. This is your motor is reaching magnetic saturation. Here is a link to a video that analyzes brushless motor saturation and it may help you advance your understanding of the subject: ua-cam.com/video/8x0LnLq17dc/v-deo.html
@@emotobros thanks
Don’t own a Sur-Ron but a very knowledgeable video and well interpreted. Very well don with all the information.
So,,,,, get the KO controller then?
The KO controller would be equally capable of heating the motor up when compared to the BAC8000 unfortunately, so that wouldn’t be an ideal solution.
Yeaaaaah ya lost me. Just tell me what to buy 😂
Do they give the same top speed?
There is some nuance to your question, but in general yes so long as the power supply is the same voltage and the settings are the same.
Good. I can relax and keep on running my stock motor and bms bypassed battery with your kit. Cheers.
Good video and very well spoken on the subject.
Hey nice vid do you know if I could use the bac 4000 with the 72v lite speed battery
Yes, must have the correct system voltage on the tune though.
Fantastic informative video. I was looking for this exact information. Thank you!
So a question I have is what parameter does the “power levels” change when switching 1-9? Is it just lowering /raising the wattage?
Good question. You can think of power levels of a percentage of power based on the power level you set. For example, say you set the max throttle power in 'ASI settings' to 10,000W. At level 9, you'd have 100% power, so 10,000W. level 8 gives 90% power, so 9,000W. Each power level you go down drops the max power and max speed by 10%.
so what would anyone recc for best range setup to have with single track off road riding? not as concerned with speed and toque as range increase
60v 70ah battery, run it at 6-8kw
Overkill isn't always a no go. I want the most power in a sur ron..
Totally agree. Just wanted to lay it all out with no marketing BS.
Amazing information. Thank you.
Very cool! Love the technical deep dive into how some of this works! Keep them coming!
Great information and video. Curious tho, I ride 450 dirtbikes that are great on power. Do you still think the 8000 wouldn’t be enjoyable?
It’s not that the 8000 isn’t enjoyable it’s that it costs $200 more and the amount of power that the SurRons chassis can handle is capable of being output by the 4000.
Informative as always guys, thank you!
Hoping you might consider providing some more in depth info on batteries - proper charging procedures , break in (?), cooling times, and avoiding crystallization. The charging directions from Sur Ron are inconsistent with Retailers forum instructions. More info please ...
We will likely cover that when we make a video about our custom battery.
Amazing information. Thank you.
8:00 Google ohms law calculator
Thanks for making this!
yo c ronaldo sur mon deuxieme compte
Perfekcyjnie wytłumaczone 👍🤟🥃
Sun in your eyes mate.
Is this the kid from modern family?
👌🔥
So i need about 7 thousand for all this
Somethin like that haha. Still less than a new 250!
Well explained video bros👍
🙌🏻 thank you for this!
Cheers Professor!
How do I get a bac4000 ?
Our website when they’re released.
Change the sprocket to get more top speed and you will be able to give use to that power.
While this would work it would also exacerbate the motor over heating issue.
engineer approved explication, nice work.
I love this young man's mind and calculating and knowledge. Just think the Woke people are saying Math is Racist!
Wow you guys are so cool and smart!!!
Gay
Great video! Dump the sun glasses! Wearing sunglasses when delivering an important message is a bad fopaux.
😎😎
@@emotobros keep the glasses....risky business style(hopefully audience is not too young to get that...lol)...😎 great videos👌
fuck that, dare to be different.