The Passion Translation Is NOT the Best Bible Translation | Part 1: Christianity Today Interview!
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- Опубліковано 10 лют 2022
- The Passion Translation isn't all bad, but it has some significant problems. Christianity Today reached out to me for comment on it just the other day after Bible Gateway dropped TPT from its site. Here are all the comments I provided for CT.
This part 1 of a 3-part series on TPT; this launches my Not the Best Bible Translation series.
CT story: www.christianitytoday.com/new...
For those interested in why Logos includes TPT: www.logos.com/publishing-phil...
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My pastor's wife reads this Passion Translation. It was quoted in the church. It really disturbed me after I watched and commented on Mike Winger videos.
Yeah, I agree that would be cause for concern. =|
My concern is no so much the translation. It’s the fact that this gentleman said he went heaven and received downloads. And the fact he has seen God library and the fact the passion is named after an angel called Passion. We are then led to believe according to him anyway that God didn’t give us his whole word and Brian is the channel in which God is given us more this is from his lips.
Yes, this is all very alarming!
Yeah, it sounds very Mormonic, very Smithian...
He said he saw a book in heaven called John 22. He also says the second coming is unscriptural.
I'm digging that jacket and tie combo.
Just doin’ my job!
Yes Mark! Love the last series and I'm super chuffed you're doing this one. Blessings as you plug time and energy into this!
It takes a fair bit of both! Pray for me!
:D such a great actress! (And wise insight on your part as usual. Thank you)
My pleasure! Yes, I just loved it when she put her head down and took "notes" (which were actually a flower doodle-she LOVES drawing).
Love this series! The Mirror is one I am super curious about as well.
I confess I only just heard of it.
I like the new shift! Love learning specifics about Bible translations, both good and bad.
✔
"Translation" A rather charitable use of the word in this case.😳🤔🙋🏼♂️📖
Like The Message, there is translation and paraphrase in TPT. But unlike The Message, there's also some other weird stuff of odd origin.
Touché!
Congrats on being on Christianity Today! Great video as always.
Thank you!
Thank you, Brother Mark🌹🌹🌹
My pleasure!
Haha, I'm excited for this series! I've got several translations that I can't wait to see if you'll cover.
Go ahead and tell me what they are! Still forming the list!
@@markwardonwords Oh, there are so many. From the theologically complicated Complete Jewish Bible, to the Rastafarian Jah International Version, to the many single-translator versions, the possibilities are endless.
@@calebschaaf1555 As a part of the Messianic Jewish world from which the Complete Jewish Bible originates I've got to agree with you here, it's an odd one. I would probably put it in a similar category to what I think Ward's opinion of the Message is, the CJB is better served as a Bible commentary than as a translation. Even though it's technically a translation from the OL it has too much of the views of Dr. Stern, the translator, in it to be considered a straight translation. With that in mind it could be a good read as a study tool from a pro-nomian and pro-Jewish perspective.
From the same Messianic Jewish world we also now have the Tree of Life Version, TLV, which sits somewhere between NIV & ESV on the dynamic v. formal spectrum. I and others I know have mixed feelings about it. It's use of Hebrew transliterated terminology spans the gamut from the logical like the use of Messiah for Christ and Yeshua for Jesus to the unnecessary like using B'nei Yisrael for children of Israel.
In general I feel that sectarian translations, while having a certain use and function within its intended communities, tend to take too many liberties. For the TLV I have yet to come upon a passage that I would say is significantly different than my go to tools of ESV, NASB, or LEB and yet it still is a bit weird in phraseology at times.
Insightful and adorable! Thank you brother
She sure is cute, that girl! I love her!
Thank you Dr. Ward 👍
You are very welcome!
We need more of these!
I am planning another one!
Actually another several!
As for individually done translations, I remember reading William Barclay's NT translation in the 1970s. Worth a look.
Ah, yes. Good tip.
4:04 Wait, what? I had no idea Michael Bird was planning one. Interesting!
Appreciated your thoughts on the TPT and how we can best benefit from paraphrases like The Message.
Yes! Don't ask me how I know! I'm not sure the knowledge is public!
@@markwardonwords 🤐
Well said. I appreciate your well-articulated comments on the MSG as well (...and of course, we are appreciative of the assistance of 'Ms. Urchin'). Overall, you've given me a (much-needed) renewed confidence in returning to translations such as the NIV or even the NLT for my daily reading blocks, cross-referencing my trusty ESV (and perhaps the MSG) for verses which stick out.
Yes, that's right! Those are all good tools!
Hey Mark, I loved your documentary on Faithlife and just discovered your UA-cam channel. You mentioned in this video N.T Wright’s The Kingdom New Testament. Would love to hear a breakdown of your thoughts on it.
Me too! First I need to read a whole lot more of it. I’ve only sampled it here and there in his commentaries.
I look forward to your critique of the Cepher Bible.
I still need to get to that! Good reminder!
I would love for you to cover The Mirror.
Never heard of it! Will look into it!
Your work is excellent, Mark, but in this video, the best part was most assuredly that lovely young lady (your daughter I presume?)!!
Totally agree! Yes, that's her! I love that little girl! Just got done snuggling with her and teaching her math!
I never heard of the TPT until now. I read some verses and I don’t like it. Paraphrases are fine if you know their limitations. I agree with John Walton’s take that the Bible was written for us not to us. It was originally written in Hebrew and Greek. Is it hard work? yes it is but you have to put effort in a relationship. I recently bought the Cultural backgrounds Bible in the NRSV and I’m enjoying it. We forget that the Bible is a time capsule for God revealing himself to the world and his plan of redemption. We would do better to learn the idioms and original meaning of the scriptures instead of depending on a loose paraphrase. You will find meaning in the original because it still speaks to us. Human nature is timeless.
I got the TPT snuck in a package from the best Bible software, thank God for hidden resources :)
Me too, to be honest!
What a wonderful actress! She did a great job!
I like to think so!
While some of the newer OT books (like Genesis) for instance have improved on their predecessor's thanks to the author's willingness to listen to some reputable voices (like Rick Wadholm Jr) this is still a good, informative, accurate video.
Good-I'm glad to hear that Simmons has listened to some critics. Got a link, Dustin? I'd love to read more.
Well done CT interviewer. I have a question, what about the Easy Reader Translation? I have friends who do use this, but as I’ve said before, my eye teeth were cut on the kjv, and settled on reading the KJV/NKJV, NASB or ESV- but I listen to Sir David Suchet read the Anglicized NIV. It helps you drift off to sleep quiet well at night.
David Suchet, yes! My wife loves hearing him on the Dwell app!
You really should do a video on the EasyEnglish translation. I nominate it specifically because the translators restricted themselves not only to simplified grammatical constructions, but also to a simplified vocabulary of only 1200 words. It's aimed at ESL readers and those with lower-than-average reading abilities. The results are interesting, but often rather paraphrastic. I'm still not sure how I feel about it.
Never heard of it, I confess! Interesting!
Thank you for one of the most rational and biblical responses to the TPT. I hope the Mike Winger mob can put their burning torches down for a few minutes and watch this. It is a blessing. God bless your channel.
I "somewhat" agree. I absolutely agree with Mike, and Mark, though. I don't see what you seem to be describing from Mike's followers; maybe I just don't pay that much attention. Take someone from Chris Rosbroughs' or Justin Peters' group of follower and that's a mob with burning torches AND rabies.
@@ericsmith7287 Lol, I understand what you are saying. Mark's channel is great and one of my favorites. I love how he approaches these issues. While Mike is not full of 'rabies', his following can be and I believe he condones some of it. I believe a lot of these heresy hunter channels on UA-cam are causing more harm than good. The enemy is using them to subtlety cause division among the Body of Christ. While I do agree that flagrant false teachings on the essentials should be called out, these channels grab a foot and stretch it out to a yard so they can have content on their channels. When we are attacking other brothers and sisters in the faith for the the way they worship, dress, bible translation, etc...it just causes dissension among believers. If God wanted all of us to look and act the exact same way when we obey and worship Him, he would have made all of us to look and sound the exact same way. “In essentials unity, in non-essentials liberty, in all things charity.” God bless, brother.
I have not seen any mob like mentality, especially not coming fro the likes of Mike Winger, I think he is a bit too soft regarding the issue of the TPT. I am not subbed to him so wont know what he is up to currently regarding TPT. The issue is what TPT is supporting, its a very serious issue hence all the attention it is getting from many channels and people.
If you have no understanding of what TPT is supporting then it may seem like its just another bible such as the message. At least Eugene said the message is not to be used as your primary bible and that it is a paraphrase.
Brian does not, Brian is claiming that this is an actual legit translation. It is very clear why he has done this work when you are aware of what goes on in the churches he is connected with, Bethel etc.
I have watched a number of Mike's interviews with scholars on TPT. I feel that those scholars were appropriately measured. I also feel that Mike himself was appropriately gracious and fair while still being appropriately alarmed. He's a UA-camr, not a biblical scholar (though he's a responsible guy and knew how to find responsible guys), so it seems okay to me that he would be more intense than the scholars. I haven't seen a mob! But I haven't looked at the comments on his videos.
@@markwardonwords I appreciate Mike's efforts with all those scholars. He put a lot of time and investment into it even though it did not do much to change my mind about TPT. I enjoy reading it on a devotional level. It is not my primary translation (not even in my top 5) but I still enjoy it for what it is...I view it like the The Message. Mike posted on Facebook the other day that Bible Gateway removed TPT from their site and I responded by simply saying that I enjoy reading it and the pitchforks came out full force, lol. Thanks again for this video. Look forward to the next one.
Very interesting. Enjoyed this.
Thank you! And I haven't forgotten you!
@@markwardonwords no worries brother! If you are doing videos like this, I can wait! Lol. Off the wall question, but curious where you would put the CEV in regard to “translation” vs “paraphrase” tendencies as well as “recomendability” (I know I made that word up:)”
@@joshuabarzon1112 I don't have the right to an opinion here. I have only the barest familiarity with the CEV. I gather that others put it somewhere past the NLT, but closer to the NLT than The Message?
@@markwardonwords That is correct about its relationship to the NLT. My daughter has a Bible story book that uses portions of the CEV to progress the narrative. It is very easy to read, especially for children. However there are some concerning liberties taken regarding the use of gender, especially with the complete neutering of 1 Timothy 3:1-5.
You should check out the analytical literal translation of the old and new testament by Gary f zeolla its a 9 book set that contains a concordance and a companion book I set the deuterocanical and apostolic fathers book aside untill further research. Also I would like to know what you think of the third testament spirit of truth.
Also, I'd like to hear this Exposatory sermon out of the Message. I'm curious how one goes about expositing a Paraphrase translation.
Watch the video!
Hey Mark. I was just curious if you could let me know which Romans commentary you were talking about when you said it was the best (previous video). There are a handful that come from the pen of Douglas J. Moo, but I want to grab the one you mentioned. Sorry if I am bothering you, but I really want to grab a copy. I'd love some help expounding upon and teaching it in a more clear manner to my beautiful bride. Thank you!
NICNT 2nd edition! amzn.to/3sHECmJ
Do we get to see "Kate's" notes? Along with Jesus writing in the ground in the pericope adulterae, this might be one of the greatest mysteries of the world ;-)
She was doodling a flower, I believe! =)
Can you consider doing one on the Mirror Bible? Thank you for all of your videos on this topic, and many others. 😎
That's my second request for the Mirror Bible. Okay, I'll take a look! But no promises!
Great video, Mark. Go Mike Winger 😊. I like how you explained it.
Glad you liked it!
As a non-native English speaker I appreciate the use of "fissiparousness", which I had never heard before, to describe that well-deserved part of our fame as evangelicals.
That’s us!
Mark, what is your opinion of 'The Living Bible' by Kenneth Taylor? I always thought it to be an excellent paraphrase without it claiming to be anything but a paraphrase.
I have no right to an opinion. I've never read it! I'm not sure I've even read a word, except perhaps when it's been quoted.
@@markwardonwords Fair enough. But tell me, will you be doing a video on the New Living Translation? I'm an NKJV kinda guy, but I've been spending some time with the NLT lately and find myself really liking it.
I am planning such a video, yes!
I actually find individual based translation and denominally specific translations helpful in they help the readers to understand how the bible is read form the view point of the translator or from that denomination.. These are especially true if the denomination or group doesn't have readily available doctrinal statement. One can learn more about the beliefs of the person or group from the translations (as translations are commentaries of a sort on their own right).
Very interesting idea. Will consider.
Translation involves some interpretation. Having a common translation is made possible only by refusing to interpret and translate some words like baptize. I heard 1 chinese translation translated baptize as immerse. The other end of the spectrum is to have more interpretation in translation so you have translations being called names like paraphrase, translations used only by Jehovah's Witnesses and followers of Herbert W Armstrong, etc.
I trust you're familiar with Mike Winger's multiple videos on TPT, including the ones where he commissioned several scholars to address its issues from an academic perspective. Edit: well, that's what I get for commenting before watching. Even leaving aside the issues with the translation itself (which, IMO, are many and serious), the much more fundamental problem is Simmons' dishonesty. He's outright lied about his background and credentials as a translator. He's outright lied about the original language of the NT--even if he could colorably claim that the NT was originally written in Aramaic, he can't colorably claim that this is a recent consensus among scholars. Either he's lying about that, or he simply has no idea what he's talking about. _Falsus in unum, falsus in omnibus_ .
Yes. I've got it in my (almost complete) script for part 2 to recommend Winger's videos.
Why was it on bible gateway in the first place? What's their screening process?
I honestly do not know. I'd love to hear what they say.
I am curious as to where this new "not the best" series is going. I know you are a stalwart defender of conservative Evangelical Bible translations, which raises the question of whether we'll be seeing critiques of versions that fall outside of that category. Will the New Jerusalem Bible or the Common English Bible find themselves on the list in the future? Or is your intention to focus on the fringe sectarian translations exclusively?
I have a pretty consistent policy of "sufficient sampling." If a Bible translation is put together by reputable people/institutions on clearly cogent grounds, I feel duty bound to look at tons of examples of given renderings before rendering verdicts. This means I can't and won't speak about the NRSV, the RSV, the CEB, the CEV, the Living Bible, the Good News Translation, and countless other Bible translations. But I can and will speak about translations that are built on obviously faulty theological and theoretical/linguistic foundations, because it's a lot easier and quicker to examine a preface and a few sample passages than to read and evaluate a whole translation. So, basically, I intend to focus on fringe and/or sectarian translations. I might permit myself to weigh-and-find-wanting individual renderings in the CEB or NRSVue, but I will refuse to generalize from them.
Open to your suggestions as to where you'd like me to take this series.
I heard the Voice translation is the more extreme version of the Message translation.
Yeah, and it adds commentary in italics, as I recall??
@@markwardonwords The Voice translation is very easy to read so it looks helpful. The commentary is mixed in with the bible text but these are in different fonts and are easy to skip if desired. Many study bibles have in text comments which are usually in different fonts or background colors.
@@markwardonwords Voice translates baptize as baptize but there are plenty of footnotes saying literal is immerse, so this translation will probably be rejected by non baptists.
Please do the new world translation
I am considering this. If I do it, I really need to do it justice. I need to be fair. That is a lot of work.
Work well worth it 😉 the NWT is a serious deception and worth exposing in case some JWs gave a copy to a new believer or someone ignorant of its dangers.
Young's Literal Translation was authored by one man. Do you think it is good?
Yes and no. =) It's got good and bad. I describe that in this video: ua-cam.com/video/reBR7di1Nr8/v-deo.html
I'll try again, and try to be more succinct (and avoid url links that maybe YT didn't like?)… 1. Direct divine downloads have a worrisome history (think the Cave of Hira or Cumorah hill). 2. It appears that Simmons used English translations of Aramaic translations of the original biblical languages. 3. Aramaic primacy is but a stone's throw from Ruckmanism. 4. The overuse of NAR-friendly words (e.g., 'portals' and 'anointing') promotes tribalism.
1. Absolutely!
2. I have wondered the same thing, but I didn't want to say, because that would seem like I was insulting the guy. Do you have any evidence for this?
3. Absolutely agreed. And it's a small stone that you can't throw very far.
@@markwardonwords 2. Evidence was in the aforementioned url links, but you can search 'The Passion [Anti-]Translation: was Brian Simmons really translating from the Syriac Peshitta?' by Andrew Chapman, for a good example. Also, whilst you replied I edited my post to add a point 4.
I'm not up on NAR terminology. That's helpful.
What Bible translations are bad?
Stay tuned!
My comments have disappeared or been removed/censored, and now my 55 year old brain is trying to recall what I wrote...
Not censored from me!
@@markwardonwords No, I didn't think it would be you, Mark.
@@markwardonwords Mine too was deleted. Is it possible that it is being held in queue because of the link to Manning's blog?
Possible! I'm frustrated with UA-cam comments. They delete so many of them that I don't get to see-I know this because I get a notification on my phone in which I can read the first line or so, but when I click on it it's gone. And it's not in a spam folder, which UA-cam does have. Can you share the title so I can search for it? I can supply the link. Are you talking about my friend Gary Manning?
@@markwardonwords I have tried again without the link. The link was to Gary Manning's blog.
Simmons has appeared on Sid Roth. Sorry, but that alone does it for me.
I didn't know Sid Roth. Just checked him out. Yeah, I can't say that I'm a fan.
@@markwardonwords Certainly, I have more concerns with The Passion than just that, but Roth's show is so bad that finding out someone has appeared on it does for their credibility something akin to them believing in a flat Earth or saying Elvis lives next door to them.
Hi Mark. Is that your daughter?
It's a young actress playing Kate Shellnutt! ;)
@@markwardonwords cute. Getting trained early! I love the hcsb and nkjv. I do own the tpt but dont use it as a main bible
👏 to the actress well done!
I've never heard of this translation, but from the comments it seems like a good thing not to have known about it.
Yeah, move on with life! =)
Passion Translation can’t even be called a translation. Edit: actually can it? No, right? Simmons doesn’t actually translate so much as writes his own words?
No, it's got a lot of translation in it. I can testify to that. It isn't all translation, though. It's got paraphrase and other things that are harder (or impossible) to justify. It's a mix.
@@markwardonwords Thank you for the clarification. So there is translation in there as well as other things
It's pronounced "sigh-fer".
That’s how the progenitor pronounced it?
Do you plain to talk about Cepher?
Yes indeed! Tell me where you've encountered it. It will come out in a video in a month.
@@markwardonwords i can't wait! I've heard multiple people claiming that this is the true bible and things like that
Shouldn't can it a translation. It's really a commentary pretending to be a translation at best
I think it contains a mixture of translation, paraphrase, commentary and other things.
@Mark Ward that's fair. I meant to say call it a...
Too bad we don't have the type of vocabulary Hebrew does with the Midrash, etc, but I don't think the difference between Torah and Midrash is equivalent to the difference between TPT and the Bible. In my mind, it is certainly not the text of the Bible in any meaningful way.
Thanks for your reply!
It's a rewrite, is what it is.
I think you're being too nice. Everything I've seen points to the TPT's author being dishonest, even fraudulent it seems. I like how you advise to read every multi-author translation first then turn to the TPT, but even that gives it some level of credibility it has not earned. My advice would be to ignore it completely. Also, you may have underestimated it's reach. I've seen it quoted twice now at my local church, and I was quite disturbed.
Hmm. What denomination is this church?
I don't mind saying in the comments here that I would rather no one read TPT. But "book-burning" seems to be counterproductive. Am I really going to tell all adult Christians that the thing is so dangerous merely to read that they shouldn't even touch it? Our culture is suspicious of that kind of rejection. What I said is a gentler way of saying the same thing, because who is going to read all the standard translations first? And if someone does do that, I'm truly not worried about what negative effects it will have on him or her. They're already presumably good readers who know what the Bible really says. The errors of paraphrases like TPT are unlikely to sway them, because most of it is inane more than wrong.
@@markwardonwords You're right. I didn't mean to suggest anything be burned. I just don't want to give it any more credibility than it deserves. The whole thing looks like a scam to me, but perhaps I'm being too harsh. As for the church, they don't claim to be part of any denomination, but they do hold to essential Christian doctrine. It was troubling to see them quote the TPT in their message/devotional material, but I think they realized their mistake. I haven't seen it since then.
Arms dealer of evangelical world 😂
✔ Right!