The Passion Translation Is NOT the Best Bible Translation | Part 2 of Several
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- The Passion Translation isn't all bad, but it has some significant problems.
This part 2 of a three-part series on TPT; part of my overall "Not the Best Bible Translation:" series.
Excellent critiques of TPT:
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"Just because God CAN do good through messed up things doesn't mean we shouldn't recognize them as messed up."
👏👏👏
Right!
Great video Mark, I love the car terminology analogy. Unfortunately Simmons basically insulated himself, and the TPT, from criticism when he claimed many years ago that God told him that he would be persecuted for the rest of his life for his translation work. It's telling that most of Simmons' defense ("God revealed to me...") could have been used by Joseph Smith in defending the Book of Mormon.
Yeah, it's kinda hard to criticize someone whose brain capacity has been enlarged by the Spirit. And it's kinda hard not to be sarcastic…
"you may consider TPT a blending of these." If by that he means he put the Bible text in a metaphorical blender and this was the result then I'd agree.
Great video Mark, as usual. Praise God and thank you for sharing your insight. May God continue to guide you.
On the statement "God can bring/do good with TPT", I agree. He certainly can.
Now, I do have some thoughts on that. I understand the concerns that are presented, I share those as well. Although I choose to give the benefit of the doubt to TPT's author and I won't question his honesty or sincerity, I consider TPT to have a questionable aspect (For lack of a better term. I had it, but it escaped my tongue, so this will suffice).
For that reason, as I have pointed out in the past to people I've come across when we're dealing with any item branded as "Christian" that has that questionable no sé que (je ne sais quoi) and the words "God can use it for good" as an argument in support for an uncareful and uninformed constant primary use of said item -I serve a God who I have no doubt in my mind that He is omnipotent and sovereign and can certainly use wonky, crooked and even questionable things for His glory and bring people to Him; yet that sovereignty and omnipotency do, well, anything, does not equal to an unfailing obligation to do so.
This may sound unkind, but I'm honestly not trying to be. A person may survive on junk food feeding their body with some, albeit in small quantities and lesser quality, nutrients, but mostly are they are being ghostly fed by sense of being satisfied, because their tummy is full. But in the long run they come to realize, if ever, they were starving on a full stomach the entire time.
And I say this not because this is your case, or the many well informed people out there who, as I have myself uttered the words "God can use it", but I say it because I know there are people out there, who unknowingly yet willfully are starving themselves under the pretense "God can use it".
There is a time and a place for something like TPT when and where people can gaIn good. We need to put the soy milk (yes, I'm a vegan) back in the fridge and get yourself a plate of food and let the milk be relegated to it is. We need to limit sweets, chocolate and junk food, because if we fill our stomachs with milk and all those other things, there won't be any space where to put the nitrutios food.
I could keep hammering that down, but I think the point gets across. We should be discerning as to these items. God is able and definitely has the authority to used spiritual junkfood or spiritual food of very low nutritional value, yet He is wise and knows exactly when and if to use them at any given time for our benefit. Another thing we should consider and ask God for His leading is as to when and if we need to just put away some of these things completely if the good or spiritual nutritional value I may gain is really not enough to justify the intake of non nutritional and potentionally damaging things.
All that to say we need to be careful.
Based on what I have read so far about the TPT both from their website and other people, whom like myself have raised concerns after reading the tpt and the author's statement, and now your videos on it (I can't believe I missed these until now) all I can say is, there's definitely better options out there (right?) When a need for a paraphrase or a more modern casual broderline paraphrase arises.
Good thoughts. I probably do need to think more like a pastor than an academic when it comes to things this aberrant.
Hey Mark. Thanks for the reply. I can definitely understand that. I do appreciate your academic thoughts and insights. I think that's the member of the body God has call you to be, if I may borrow Paul's analogy.
What you've said needed to be said and the more I look into it, the more the more I think it needs to be said. We need scholars and pastors and academics in this body.
Maybe I should have waited until the end of the video to share my thoughts, but I was too eager or excited to say something.
One thing I didn't catch when I read from TPT is the use, or perhaps overuse of the word passion. I didn't realize it until watching your video.
It made me think of the movie or show where the characters say the name of it as a turn phrase or comeback I'm conversation and you think, "oh that's a clever pun", but after the 10th time you change the Chanel because you know that's not how people talk and they're just to hard.
Again, as always, I really appreciate your insight and have nothing but appreciation and respect for your academic hat. May God continue to bless and guide your ministry.
P.S. I'm sorry for the typos 😅 I'm using my tablet and it's not as easy to type.
Fair review, thank you. I read the TPT in a devotional manner. It is not my main translation for study and it would not recommend it if someone asked me which translation to try. I put it in the same category as The Message but enjoy it more than that one. I also agree about some of the silly statements Simmons makes. He only feeds the haters. TPT brings me joy for what it is and how I use it in my daily journey with God's Word. Thanks again.
That’s helpful. And as long as you understand what Simmons claims and what he did, I could see you getting profit-like the kind with which I started the video.
Oddly I heard a lecture by James White yesterday who suggested Peter might have been written, or dictated, in Aramaic and then translated into Greek. He did not suggest that there were existing Aramaic manuscripts.
“It’s like a snake, but with jazz hands.” 🤣
;)
I have a love for paraphrases. I loved the Living Bible before it was the New Living Translation. I also enjoy the message from time to time, but there does come a point when a paraphrase just jazzes up the text a little to much as if it is begging to illicit some emotion out of you. This is how TPT feels to me. Love the video, brother Mark!
That particular element of TPT feels cheap and contrived to me: adding “absolutely” and “passionate.” But there were other moments of intelligent and careful and heartwarming paraphrase.
The Living Bible is a great translation. The Message and The Passion Translations take liberty and embellish way too much. To put the Living Bible in the same category as The Message and The Passion Translation is grossly unfair.
@@normanrausch1223 I agree with the sentiment, as I’ve communicated in my comment that the TPT goes to far, but it would be inaccurate to call The Living Bible a translation. The preface of the LB even contrasts it from a proper translation.
@@pinkdiscomosh2766 Even the late Ken Taylor refers to the Living Bible as a bible translation and rightfully so. Is it a perfect translation? No. I would have liked to have seen a clear distinction for example between Lord (Adonai) and LORD (YHWH) in the old testament. But l have read the LB many many times in its entirety and l don't come to one conclusion in the LB and another in the NKJV or NASB which l have also read in their entirety.
Just the fact that he would lie, and say God spoke to him, and that he was in the library of heaven, and saw John chapter 22 was enough for me.
Col 2:18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, [vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,]
I passed a copy to a Coptic priest and he said that it contains herasies condemned by the 1st 3 ecumenical councils (the Coptic Church only accepts the 1st 3 ecumenical councils).
Interesting. I'd love to know particulars. Care to track them down with that priest?
Likewise. I can't imagine a Coptic priest having read TPT at all thoroughly.
@@rowanwilliams5178 You'll be surprised, when it comes to teaching what one believes as correct doctrine, was people will do to protecting their spiritual children. (PS the many of Coptic Christians who've immigrated to other countries have leard the local language to some extent, ie English, French, German, etc. There children and grandchildren become fluant in said languages. As a result, the Coptic clergy have to be aware of strange teachings.)
@@nathanjohnwade2289 Yes, Copts are often very knowledgable, learned people. I speak from experience, as someone with one foot in the Coptic Church you might say (I belong to the EOTC but my closest church is COC). So, if you can provide some of the particulars, I look forward to being pleasantly surprised.
Amen!! I am loving these videos!
I have to add, driving an automatic is easier, but a manual transmission makes driving an enjoyable experience. Likely this is what Simmons was aiming for...a bible you can enjoy.
But he chose to do it at the cost of driving safely.
We should never let the lust for ease or pleasure cloud our judgement. We are here for God's good pleasure, not the other way around.
So glad you're enjoying the videos! Yes, I feel like this particular car has something weird in it that makes it suddenly lurch to the right or left while you're driving!
@@markwardonwords Yeah...that happens when you alter the blueprints for a replacement part...😂
"Likely this is what Simmons was aiming for...a bible you can enjoy. "
The evidence supports the idea that he was aiming for a mis-translation that would support his aberrant doctrines.
While I did appreciate your video and enjoyed your analogies and the clarity of the presentation I must confess that I wasn't expecting the shade towards my friend Tremper (particularly from an NT guy)
Fair! I also threw him some praise! But his position on creation and his book on politics were both less than congenial to me. Nonetheless, I’ve appreciated his commentaries. I even wrote an article summarizing an ETS paper I heard of his. Excellent stuff.
you’re you much Mark,! your inclusion of the G & S “ I am the very model of a modern … major … was the funniest moment I have ever encountered in the Christian You Tube World thanks !
Ha! I'm honored!
As a complete lay person, at times I do use the Lamsa translation of the Aramaic Peshitta when going through the Gospels or Hebrews, and I treat it like the Targums, a commentary on the text which can help illuminate, and at times cloud, the text. However I am very weary of anyone who places too much weight on the Aramaic translations.
Also, there are actually Hebrew translations of the New Testament, as well as Greek paraphrases of the New Testament, both being a part of the manuscript pool for the New Testament. I think that is what Simmon’s is referring to as analyzing the different translations.
I am not aware that any Hebrew translations or Greek paraphrases of the New Testament are used as part of the manuscript pool for the New Testament. I would be rather surprised to find out, 20 years after starting to study New Testament textual criticism, that this is the case. Are you possibly talking about lectionary readings instead of NT Greek paraphrases?
@@markwardonwords I am referring to the Peshitta and its cousins, the Catalonian Hebrew translation, as well as the Western text which underlies these texts as well as the Vulgate. These are manuscripts, not print editions, that served to interpret the text. They are not a part, at least normally, of the manuscript pool used for translation, but they do represent manuscript families from the broader 20,000 manuscripts of the New Testament not used for translation.
Never heard of this one before, and it seems as good I didn't. I also never like the idea of a single person translation either, the liberties that can and often are taken is endless. I did a little research on the TPT after seeing your first video on this, and saw some of the assertions made by Simmons, now can you imagine John Smith making these said assertions about the book of Mormon (he might have and I didn't know about it). There are so many things wrong with this translation, that the bad outweighs the good so as to make it worthless, at least to me. I wonder who will be next to say God brought them into heaven and personally told them the real meaning behind the Scriptures and then we will see another translation claiming to be the undisputed best translation since translations were made.
By the way, I had a question for you concerning the KJVO folks and what they make of 1 Samuel 13:1, seeing that the KJV, according to them, is divinely inspired, how do think they deal with this tricky passage? Maybe you could do a video on the it.
7:35 Nice Gilbert & Sullivan reference--how many takes did that need?
15:00 I like the expression "word salad" for situations like these.
16:10 Well, the Greek is a translation of the Hebrew (and of a small amount of Aramaic) if you're talking about the Septuagint...
20:00 I've heard it suggested, by people of uncertain trustworthiness in this regard, that the NT was originally written in Aramaic--but even if that were the case, there's no question that the originals are gone; what's left would be extremely early Greek translations. And even under that hypothesis, the Peshitta is known to have been translated from Greek. But given the relatively-recent (compared to the ~2000 years since the autographs were written) discovery of the papyri (all in Greek), this hypothesis strikes me as highly unlikely. His claim goes further, though; he claims that there's a new academic consensus in his favor, which simply isn't true.
7:35 It was tough!
20:00 It really does seem to me that he's reporting a new academic consensus of some kind. He's tough to pin down.
" the NT was originally written in Aramaic"
There is ZERO historical evidence for that. This idea comes from the historically incorrect notion that Israelites spoke only Aramaic, when in fact, Greek was nearly universal. We know with certainty that they used the Septuagint in the weekly synagogue readings. Finally, there is proof within the text itself that it at least the gospels were written in Greek.
There is obviously no reason for Paul to have written to his audience in anything other than Greek - they were either Greeks or a mixture of Greeks and Greek-speaking Jews. The only one where there is any LEGITIMATE question might be Hebrews.
I fully agree 👍 💯 Mark everything you said makes perfect sense. I re enjoyed this video thank you very much. Keep up the good work, I'll be waiting for part 3 .God Bless 🙌
Thank you, sir!
Many thanks!
I can find nothing about TPT to recommend it. It is being paraphrased by one guy who is deeply involved in the NAR, which is so messed up that I won't get into it here. Simmons does not know Greek or Hebrew, has never done any translation work, and claims that God is giving him what to write through 'downloads.' My advice to anyone about TPT, stay away, STAY FAR AWAY!
Here's a question: when the New Testament talks about the "Word of God",.isn't it logical to assume it's either a.) Talking about the Torah or b.) talking about some esotoric Spirit? They could not have been talking about our current Bible,.as our current Bible is a selection from people who choose all the letters and books that would go into the Bible, after the new testament writers were dead. And don't cop out with the answer "God in all his providence was writing the complete Bible in those letters, even though the New Testament writers didn't know it".
Enjoying the series!
Thank you!
Mark... You forgot to put an affiliate link in the description so we could purchase the TPT Bible ;-).
I'm no scholar, nor am I an expert in biblical languages, but I've never heard any mention of an original Aramaic NT. I have a Peshitta sitting on my desk that I've been reading through as a supplement to my other translations. It's an interesting translation which, at times, prompts me to dig a little deeper since verses don't always quite say the same thing either due to the text or the translator's choices.
I've heard claims that the NT may have been written in Hebrew, which would seem more plausible to me since they were Jews and should have probably known Hebrew. Then again the LXX was used in the synagogues, from what I've read, and also referenced in the NT, so I guess there is no guarantee of them knowing Hebrew.
I own TPT, and I’m happy to! I own tons of stuff in Logos that I don’t endorse but am glad to have access to.
"I've heard claims that the NT may have been written in Hebrew, which would seem more plausible to me since they were Jews and should have probably known Hebrew. "
No, most spoke Aramaic and Greek. Only the scholars knew Hebrew. In fact, many of the common people didn't even know Aramaic. The weekly readings in the synagogue used the Septuagint. When Jesus called out, "Eloi, Elio, lama sabacthani!", they did not understand the Aramaic but thought he was calling for Elias.
There is proof within the text of the gospels that they were written in Greek. Luke was Greek, and writing to a Greek, so to say he wrote in Aramaic would require extraordinary proof. There isn't any.
I know nothing about the passion except what youve presented in these videos, so this is just about your comment at 22:45 how do we handle the na 28 opting for a reading not in any greek manuscript? and how is this consistent with "only the original hebrew and greek' should be translated?
I don't think you'll find very many-I don't think you'll find *any*-conservatives who accept conjectural emendation, at 2 Pet 3:10 or anywhere else. I agree that it is problematic.
@@markwardonwordsthis is news to me. Can you elaborate a tiny bit on what this refers to, please? Or maybe a video? I don't expect you to do the work for me but if you could give a little direction for a layman to start research on this it would be very much appreciated.
as an ethiopian protestant whose family is largely tewahedo orthodox, i'd love to know the name of the person you talked to!
Rowan Williams! He’s a friend of the channel.
It is actually a common theory that at least the books of Matthew and Hebrews were originally written in Hebrew or Aramaic, if I remember correctly, as they were originally written for the Jewish people in Israel.
There is ZERO historical evidence for that, and there is proof within the text itself that it was written in Greek.
At 21:38 you mentioned that Peterson used an English translation of an early Syriac translation (the Peshitta). Are you referring to the ‘translation’ by George M. Lamsa? Or is there a more recent translation of the Syriac Peshitta?
Well done video.
You mean Simmons? It's what he calls "the Roth text." I had never heard of it. This post talks about it a bit: theriveroflife.com/2017/03/03/is-brian-simmons-of-the-passion-translation-telling-the-truth/
I also found it on Amazon: www.amazon.com/dp/1934916269?tag=3755-20
@@markwardonwords, oh my, I just looked on Amazon. The price was $3,989. I probably will not be buying that at this point in time. LOL.
I use the Companion Bible by Bullinger with a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance for my bible study needs. Along with a Smith's Bible Dictionary and Hammond's Atlas of the Bible Lands. There are other books that are good to study. But those are my main ones.
May the Lord bless your study!
Ah, the "Frozen Chosen" stereotype.
I actually used "brainwashed" in Galatians 3.1.
(Aramaic Primacy is a thing - I believe George Lamsa was an Aramaic Primacist.)
Yes. But Lamsa was a member of a church for which this was a theological tenet.
Where is part 3?
It ended up being part of my most recent video on crackpot translations.
Thanx, Mark. Loving it! 🌹🌹🌹
My pleasure!
Well said! Bravo, Mark, and thank you.
Thank you kindly!
I have watched Mike's videos TPT. Mike has open eyes to the errors of TPT. Sermon points are being passed off as translations. If want to know the love language of God is by interpret the word of God.
Right!
passion translation is probably very useful for people who are fans of the translator.
I am not such an one.
A famous barista! Amazing!
Infamous almost.
I would very much like to know what the top three stupidest things you have heard!
;)
Excellent! Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Well... it is the ‘Passion’ version... (using the word passion in the various places that you highlight) 😁 - please take my humour with a grain of salt.
;)
Great video, Mark! I really enjoyed this one.
The first time I heard it I thought you said that I had memorised the Bible, which is not the case. For some more context on how the Scriptures are learned (and memorised) traditionally in the EOTC, see my friend Dcn Henok's elaboration on it here:
ua-cam.com/video/3uUGoDa-nes/v-deo.html (see 00:07:09-00:15:04)
ua-cam.com/video/Iqem8dmVGag/v-deo.html (see 00:41:28-00:48:30).
Aha! I did misunderstand! Thank you for clearing that up!
You should know by now that there's a Jacobean original behind the Greek. This lost love language was not recovered until the first two decades of the 17th century, and the original spelling and punctuation were obscure until the 1760s.
Perhaps TPT will get its own NLT in a decade or two and become a functionally equivalent translation that's actually functional as a translation. (But I may be doing harm to the memory of the original Living Bible with that comparison.)
Oh my goodness. The sarcasm possibilities are endless, I’m afraid. I gave into the temptation myself in this video. But at least I cited biblical precedent directly.
22:45
😂♥️
I Love the PT bible, it's one of the many translation, and I feel such a hunger for more of God after reading it, and all I can say is thank you Jesus.
Thanks for sharing! I don't deny the positives that can be gained from it! But how Simmons forms and describes his translation/paraphrase does matter! Did you follow the argument in the video well? Is there any place where I could have been more clear?
Fruit Cakey 😂