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The NIV Is the Best Bible Translation, And So's the NIrV.
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- Опубліковано 29 гру 2021
- For Certain People in Certain Circumstances.
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"What if people actually read their NIV's hard? What bad stuff is going to happen?" Solid. Solid. Solid point.
I was asking myself this again this morning!
A lot of Christians have enjoyed the Chronicles of Narnia but a few Christians know that it’s a required reading for, becoming a witch . It has citations in it that summon demons. God says in his word that anyone that wants wisdom to ask for it but if you don’t ask for it you’re going to play the fool.
Thanks, Mark, as a pastor I'm so weary of translation wars in a culture that is increasingly biblically illiterate. I enjoy various translations, and I think It's incredible how three letters on the spine are more of a focal point to some folks than the thousands inside.
RIGHT!
@@markwardonwords
Warning: Shocking Reasons You Should Not Use the NIV Bible ua-cam.com/video/1T0ap2o1eqM/v-deo.htmlsi=UukgYXmRXMmBP0C6 Please watch this.
Dude, props for the Music Man rewrite!! These videos are super helpful btw. Making the choice of what translation to use for our church right now. I've been bouncing between the ESV (my home base) and the NIV because some of our congregation speaks English as a second language. Your video on the CSB has me thinking I should give it a seriously look too, but then I may get stuck in the paralysis of analysis.
You can't do wrong, my friend. I don't think you can sin merely by choosing any of these options. I think the CSB pretty neatly solves some pastoral problems that might arise over the NIV. I think it's a great option! And I see utility in the formal approach of the ESV, too. Honestly: I might just flip a coin between the NIV and CSB. Or take a vote. That will communicate to others what kind of decision you're making. You're not standing on principle to pick THE ONE RING TO RULE THEM ALL. You're picking one of any number of good translations-and you're inviting your people to do the same. They might find it useful to bring a different translation to church. No problem.
@@markwardonwords Thanks brother, I appreciate the response and the support. Be blessed!
So, I know it's been ages since you posted this and I first watched it.... HOWEVER, as someone who is (most gratefully) able to receive quality, well-though-out content such as this for free, I feel it is my onus (? that may be a little strong) to feedback when your work has been a personal blessing. Thanks heaps for this one. Being told for years that only the a small handful of decidedly 'literal' translations were trustworthy, a view further emphasised in seminary (some professors wouldn't even accept my beloved ESV), this video gave me permission to enjoy a more casual translation in my daily readings. As someone who struggles to read, this is no small thing... Looking back, it sounds silly that it even needed to be said, but thank you for being the one to say it.
You're so welcome! I obviously had to go through a similar process!
The NIV is my favorite translation. I've used it for about 35 years after growing up with the KJV (which I also still love for the beauty of its language). My church likes the NKJV, but I don't. I recently tried many of the other translations (e.g., NLT, ESV, CSB, Amplified), but discovered I still love the NIV,
It’s a worthy love!
I used to strongly prefer formal equivalent translations and even mocked the NIV. Without even reading much of it. And although I still prefer the NASB 2020 and ESV I’ve come to really enjoy the NIV. It’s a truly scholarly translation. I like that it actually makes much more use the DSS and LXX in the OT than most other translations. It’s often much more literal than you’d expect.
NIV is great
Great companions include the NKJV, HCSB, Amplified Bible
As a college student in the 1970s I discovered the NIV New Testament. I devoured it in a week! And the NIV Study Bible is still my favorite for its helpful notes.
Excellent!
Same here. I had never read the bible in big chunks before.
So glad this channel was recommended to me. I've watched about a dozen today and I must say I have learned and enjoyed each one. I also appreciate your kind and gentle way of bringing both sides of topics. God's blessings. Keith
I'm honored! Thank you!
The NIV Quest Study Bible brought me back to Bible reading in the late 80s. I'm back for good. :)
Welcome back!
Next video “The NLT is the best translation”. This is great thank you for this. I’m currently reading my bible in the NIV. I was saved reading a CEV bible that was gifted to me then bought an NIV. I ditched the NIV for an ESV for 10 years. Switching back to the NIV was good for me. Enjoy reading the word in the translation that speaks to you the most. No one should be disparaging others for their choice of bible translation.
That last line is so key.
I heard good things about the NLT , I'm getting one .
I was gifted a first edition NLT when it first came out. A number of updates have been made. One thing I noticed a year or two back is that the earlier editions seem to reflect the wording of the Living Bible in more places.
Do you have a video on the NLT ? I like the older versions and very careful with recent updates. I have a copy of several translations and avoid the many crackpot bibles that should not be called bibles . Like the message and the passion and so many more these days 😂
Hello Mark. I really enjoyed this video. I like the talking outside and in different locations. Really nice touch with the transitions. All the points you made were so spot on. I am a Bible geek and have a dozen plus translations. I treasure each one and my biggest challenge is settling on one to be sort of my main base translation. I keep changing my mind every few months lol.
God doesn't tell you you have to settle. =) I think it's prudent to do so. I do love the ESV. I default to more formal translations for preaching. As you know, I'm not trying to make anyone else's decision for them. If I were a pastor, I would choose differently depending on my sheep.
@@markwardonwords I haven’t been able to settle with one. So I try to use a couple as my main go to bibles and use several others as comparisons. But you are so right in that getting in the habit of comparing translations, looking up words, has enriched my Bible reading.
Thank you Mark. These videos are liberating and illuminating. I found your channel and work after running into some dear friends who are firmly KJV only to the Ruckmanite level.
Through watching your videos I have realized that I have some of the same prejudices my KJVO friends have regarding non literal translations (I'm an unashamed NKJV reader).
Having my children grow up and ask me questions about word choices in the NKJV caused me to realize that I have not considered what it means to people that are 30 years younger than me.
I've dug out my old NIV study bible and have started to read it again and haven't been struck by a lightning bolt yet.
Awesome! I just love this!
@@markwardonwords The NIV removes many verses from the chapters, Plus the NIV changes words to make it have a different meaning , Plus they cut off many verses and not complete the full verse. I'd stay away from that NIV , There is a chart that tells what the most accurate bible version there or. The NIV is thought for thought. Its very missleading .
@@gregtowle8830 My friend, the New King James Version and the Modern English Version both use the same underlying Hebrew and Greek texts as the King James. And they translate those texts into fully intelligible contemporary English, which means they meet the principle of 1 Corinthians 14, edification requires intelligibility. I recommend the NKJV and MEV to you.
@@markwardonwords But the KJV 1611 writes God as LORD in all large letters
One of my favorite aspects of the NIV is its consideration of how English is used in the broader international Anglosphere, like how it opts to use "certainly" when "surely" is seen to denote the exact opposite of its meaning when used by the British in certain contexts.
Interesting. Hadn't noticed that!
The NIV is a great translation! I must admit that I looked down my nose at it in the past, and was wrong to do so. Now when I'm studying the ESV, I'll read the same passage again in the NIV Archaeological Study Bible, and that's really been helping me understand the scripture and the context better. Thanks Mark!
Excellent! I went through a similar process years ago!
I love this. When I started my Christian walk, I didn't realize there were so many transcriptions, I ended up buying the NIV because I liked the outside. I bought 2, 1 to write in and 1 to read. Because it does have such simple language, I understood it so much better and got me into purchasing the other translations so that I can see what other words are used depending on the translation I am reading.
And you are very correct in saying that it is so much easier to read bulk amounts at a time in the NIV, I still love this version and will always refer back to it if I need to understand the more expressive language that I may not grasp.
I love it, too! It's a good gift of God. Not perfect, but good. Very good!
The NIV is my favourite translation, I find that it's very accurate, and it's in today's English. When I read and listen to the NIV it feels like the Bible is relevant for today far more than when I'd read the KJV or the ESV, but I like that it's not too thought for thought like the Good News Bible or the NLT.
A good assessment! I think the ESV/KJV on the one hand and the NLT/GNB on the other have their place, for sure. But the NIV hits a good place in the middle of the road. So does the CSB.
My first Bible was a GNB, the second was an NIV (prior to the 1984 edition). I don't shy away from other translations - each of the ones I have purchased have their place, and each can help shed light on various passages.
Thank you for shedding some light on the NIV and also other modern translations. I’ve always been around the KJVO Independent Baptist crowd. I’ve tried in the past to read NKJV NASB NLT CSB ESV ERV (I could never bring my self to getting an NIV) but I just couldn’t read them for very long always thinking in the back of my mind that the KJV was the only true Bible in English 😬 but 2022, I want things to be different because I’m going to be using multiple translations but I will read my ESV Key Word Study Bible primarily. 😎
A great choice!
I understand the lack of the reading ability in some people. including myself who grew up in special Ed all through school. I’m very thankful for translations like,GNB,NIV,NLT it makes it to comprehend what the Bible is saying.
Right!
Yes the NIV opens up many passages for me and it helps me to REALLY understand them, if you know what I mean. It clicks a new understanding inside my brain and spirit and reveals a full explanation, that I totally get.
We were born into different camps, but I enjoy everything I’ve heard from you. Thanks for your ministry 😊
You are so welcome!
Thank you Mark for this about the niv translation, I am so tired of people putting down the Niv, saying it is missing certain verses, and its satanic, I believe it to be God inspired regardless of how some people who are ignorant of the truth! Thank you for your videos!❤
My pleasure.
Hi Mark , Question, could you suggest a comeback to people who say the Niv is missing scriptures and some of the negativity that is going around , in a simplistic way, if possible? Thank you
@@carpetpro9903 I've got a video on that! Hope this helps! ua-cam.com/video/NAqeYqp0-7o/v-deo.html
Thank you so much for that message. I always felt so guilty using the NIV translation for the notes I gave to my Gospel Group (unbelievers), Nurture Group (new Christians), and for tracts I produced for cults and church heresies - because my pastor was KJV-only man. He never told me off - but sighed a lot when he read my tracts. I tried to explain that anything that could make the Bible more readily and easily understandable to the uninitiated was a good thing - and he never mentioned it again. I think he secretly agreed.
That was in the 1980's when we were always being told that verses had been removed - and a lesbian was on the translation team - so I was very careful what verses I did use.
Can I ask - what do you think about the Amplified Bible? I also used that in the Nurture Group - and it was greatly appreciated. Although one young lady said she thought it amplified her sins. I replied that indeed it did - but it also amplified God's love and forgiveness.
At the end of the day - God would rather have someone obedient to the NIV than disobedient to the NASB.
Interesting. And excellent final line.
Here's my take on the Amplified Bible: ua-cam.com/video/n5jYdo8anyw/v-deo.html
Mark, you may find it interesting, that while the NIV84 translates MT 24:30 incorrectly from the Greek; however, the 2011 NIV gets it correct! Why the NIV84 felt the need to rearrange the word order is beyond me, when there is no need for it. That Greek is even clear to ME. The light is still lit my friend. I've just ordered a new 2011 NIV, and am waiting on it to arrive. Still deciding whether to add another shelf on the wall for more bibles. Getting kinda close in here. Keep on with it Mark! Love these videos!
Thank you!
interrobang... this clinches my respect for your work. The kind of nerdy that adds an interrobang to a bible review is just what we new need.
When will a Bible translation first use one, and where? =)
This is one of the most balanced and unbiased explanation I have ever heard on the NIV translation. Mark is so wise in saying we need both, formal and dynamic translations of God's word. I have to remind my self to "trust in the Lord with all my heart, and don't lean upon my own understanding (Proverbs 3:5&6) when I read His word along with being teachable in my spirit, having a humble spirit. Thank you Mark!
Thank you so much!
Are hurricanes and ships still referred to in the feminine tense? Should hurricanes named after males be called himicanes? A wife asked her sea-going husband, "when we got married, you said I had the lines of a beautiful ship. Do you still feel that way?" The old sailor replied, "Yes, but your cargo has shifted."
;)
Thank you for this helpful discussion and teaching. I found it beneficial from start to finish.
Thanks for watching!
I used the NIV (84) for years but also had a KJV study bible which was difficult to read then my church changed to ESV. Then one day ordered a one year bible without checking which translation it was and when I opened it it was a NLT. It was an eye opener so I bought a NLT and it is now my daily reader, I find it accurate, understandable and just so easy to read large pieces with greater retention as it is in the language I use daily. Makes the Old Testament especially readable
The NLT is valuable! I still hope at some point to do a "The NLT Is the Best Bible Translation" video.
@@markwardonwordsPLEASE DO THAT VIDEO 🙌
Thank you for this video. I am an ESV guy and have been using the CSB more and more. I had been very critical of the NIV around 15 years ago or so but have softened largely due to your videos. I am frustrated by tribalism even in my own Calvinist camp: John MacArthur famously said, when asked why his study Bible was going to me made available in the 2011 NIV (now out of print), John asked himself, "Do the readers of the NIV even care what the Bible means?" 😐😑😐 The audience at Grace Community laughed. It was an amusing burn but unjustified. I would argue that jab could me made at users of The Message paraphrase and especially The Passion Translation, but not toward the NIV -- even the NIV 2011.
Yeah, I have to call that a cheapshot. =| I've been pushing back against that sentiment (not always delivered as a cheapshot) for a long time.
As a former KJVO, I am so grateful for these videos! It’s helped me heal from my former church. I still have questions, especially many of the things that Gail Riplinger said regarding Westport and Hort and their involvement in occult practices.
Riplinger's argument is a classic case of ad hominem. Tischendorf, the man who kicked off the modern critical editions of the New Testament, didn't come across Codex Sinaiticus through occult practices. He came across it in a monastery.
@@glenn1611 I don’t disagree with you but I need more solid proof than that. It was facts and proof that got me into KJVO (although I’ve now learned they were false) and I need to know what I was told is for sure false.
Oliver, I, too, feel comfortable simply saying that Riplinger cannot be trusted. Doubt every last thing she said. Of course, nobody is 100% wrong. I'm sure there's something in her work that's true. But every time I've read a page of her work, I've had that feeling you have, the where-do-I-even-start feeling. If you want to listen to someone responsible on Westcott and Hort, turn to Dan Wallace. www.credocourses.com/product/textual-criticism/
And I've got more recommendations here: byfaithweunderstand.com/2020/09/03/answering-a-question-i-get-all-the-time-the-places-to-start-in-studying-new-testament-textual-criticism/
@@markwardonwords thank you for your reply. I’ll look into those resources.
@@AboveGodsName thank you but I have already used the King James Bible exclusively in the past and I’m not interested in switching back. I’ve watched several of Mark Ward’s videos and I agree with him. The King James is a good Bible but there are other versions that are more clear in today’s English.
Thank you! I mainly use the ESV & NASB but also like reading the NIV (& recently the CSB) especially when tired and sentences flow easier over the more difficult passages.
All are good choices, useful tools for understanding God's Word!
Ah the NIV , my favourite translation
The one that actually reads like a book and I dont have to pause to look closer to double check if I really understand something
Not the best for deep understanding (I always reference multiple translations on my phone app for that)
But when I just wanna read in a constant flow , thats where the NIV shines
Also , because of this video, I checked ouy the NIrV , I was surprised by the simplicity of the language , I felt like it was patronising ,but then I remembered... this bible is NOT for me , but it is useful for others who perhaps were not as lucky to have an education... it is by no means an "inferior" version , the meaning is all still there
And I think I kind of understand people who Champion literal translations a bit better now , even though the NIV is anything but , it still might feel "dumbed down" to people used to the NASB , which is how i felt when comparing the NIV to the NIrV in the app
As someone who is not a biblical scholar , I always feel like im missing some meaning in literal translatioms through idioms that are translated word for word rather than what they mean in English... It alwsys feels like im missing some cultural context... but this is not an issue at all for me in the NIV
All of these are reasons to use all good Bible translations! Your thinking is following the same path mine has followed!
@@markwardonwords Comparing the same verse in different translations always helps me understand more , so using more than one translation , in my opinion is the "minimum" for anyone who claims to understand the bible
I've actually gone back into some of my emails and discovered that I've used the non-gender specific 'they' without even thinking about it.
Hey Dwayne, love your work! 🌹🌹🌹
Very interesting!
So looking forward to reading through the NIV in 2022. I have never spent much time with the NIV. This video was a great kickoff for me.
Excellent! I've read a reader's TNIV all the way through and a reader's NIV all the way through; and I've listened all the way through the TNIV Bible Experience. Each was great.
NIV is my fav translation, English is my second language and it has been tremendous help for me!
plus Dr Daniel Wallace recommending it
Wallace is a true scholar.
@@markwardonwords Dr. Wallace is on the Biblica team.
Another nice job/video!
The NIV is one of the first translations I read through from Genesis to Revelation. Yes, it is a good “cruising” bible, it is easier reading, but, as you mention, sometimes “cruising” can cause you to drift. It’s just a matter of being more aware. Anytime NIV is discussed with my circles, I make it know that it is really a paraphrase and they’re better off seeing it that way, especially for deeper, word or doctrine study. Using NIV in that way is a No-No.
As far as the gender-neutral stuff. It doesn’t seem to be a big or even a little issue in the area I live in. My kids did notice that at times the bible says “He” or “Man” when it means everyone. I remind them that God and the Bible wants us to think, this is one of those cases. That about settled it.
As far as how translations on two of the scriptures you discuss. I notice 1 Corinthians 2:1 in the NWT has “... I did not come with extravagant speech or wisdom..” easy, clear and accurate. Ephesians 6:10 “Go on acquiring power in the Lord and in the mightiness of his strength” also quite literal, understandable and in modern vernacular. Just comparing notes.
Thank you! But I do think it's important to keep The Message in the paraphrase category and not let centrist translations like the NIV come into it. It really is different.
One concern I have is why the NIV translators so often change the text when the original text was easy to read, understand and not archaic. This is just one example I mentioned before because it avoids controversy; NIV removes the word "begotten" in places like John 3:16. I noticed that because I was born and raised on KJV. As far as I found there are no Greek textual variants. The Greek word is monogenes, not monadikos. Clearly Jesus is not the 'only' son of God. Then NIV removes the words "sons of God" in other places. Maybe, so there is no contradiction? The words "sons of God" is the exact translation of the original languages, they are among the easiest words to read and understand, even for 3rd graders, and they're not archaic. It seems God's Holy Spirit wants us to know that God even calls his angels his sons! Why do scholars say it's OK for them to remove all of that since they're scholars? This presents just one or two of countless examples that justify so often disagreeing with mainstream scholars. They need to be careful.
On the guys-gals front.
I have a lady friend who is the oldest of three sisters. During my time hanging out with them, I’ve lost count of how many times they refer to each other as “bro”.
A good example of what I mentioned!
What makes me sick is that there was a time when people longed to have a bible in English and giving their lives to get it such as William Tyndale and know we have countless bible translations and we are all fighting and arguing over it, instead of doing what it says its really sad.
I agree!
@@markwardonwords I know you do, have a watch of this
ua-cam.com/video/wU9lZOddEFw/v-deo.html
Biblese and Greeklish. Love it. Good video Mark. Grew up on the KJV but have used the NIV from the beginning, 1978. So I have somewhat of a nostalgia factor with it just like the KJV. Trying to find my original 1978 hardcover but no luck yet😬😬
Ah, yes! Those two special languages! There's Hebrewlish, too!
Awesome stuff, I really like that you’re changing up the background, keeps me engaged.
It's a lot of work and expense, I'll be honest-but it's also fun and a good challenge.
@@markwardonwords I totally get that, glad you’re doing it though, it shows a love for the both the craft of engaging teaching and film making. Well done!
I alway enjoy your videos, and learn a lot from them. I enjoyed and appreciated your openness in this one to gender-appropriate -neutral -whatever renderings of the Bible.
I was certainly never a radical feminist. I never burned a bra or went to a demonstration. However, I was offended by the generic masculine as a 2nd grader back in 1965, when it came up in class. It was a lively discussion, as every girl in our class found it insulting and upsetting, as if we weren't even people. Our female teacher, who had white hair and thus, I presume, was long past girlhood, actually agreed with us. While the boys hooted and laughed, confirming and adding to the insult, Mrs Griggs said it was not incorrect to use "he or she" but said that most people found it too fussy or wordy or awkward to actually do so. On that day, I resolved to either use "he or she" or else rewrite my sentences entirely to avoid use of a generic. And, yes, as a 7YO I was already far too fussy a grammarian to agree ever to use "they" unless I rewrote the sentence entirely to make it actually plural. I still handle it that way. And I feel people who find writing or typing "he or she" too much extra work really just don't care enough to express any kind of respect for females.
BTW, in my Northern Virginia childhood, we girls all called each other "you guys" in direct address, (not in 3rd person). When we moved to Central Virginia, when I was 12, I quickly and unconsciously converted to "you all" and eventually to "y'all", but I still respond to "you guys" with non-Southern friends. I know only one person (1) who uses the word "gal", and I don't like it. It grates, reminding me of cowboys swarming a saloon at the end of a trail drive and grabbing the saloon girls as if they were picking up inanimate objects or pets. (I still watch and love the old Westerns, but as I grew into womanhood I for the first time thought about what it would be like to have strange men run into a room and realized how inappropriate that was.)
Off my soapbox.
Thank you again for all your excellent videos. I follow them, if you will excuse the term, religiously.
Very thoughtful and interesting. My daughter is like you, I think. We've just been having discussions about related issues in our home.
I like your analogy of a smooth road. I've often described reading editions as those that remove the roadblocks for smoother reading. I even prefer text-only editions and editions that don't include reference and footnote keys in the text. The shorter sentences in the NIrV is the way my WordPress clients want me to write articles for their blogs. Fewer people are reading, so we have to write shorter and simpler sentences. This makes me wonder if we'll see shorter sentences in future updates of other translations.
Wow! Really? Very interesting! What kinds of clients? Who do they think their audience is? That's what I'm curious about.
@@markwardonwordsmy largest client is Elegant Themes. Their audience ranges from beginners to advanced WordPress users across the globe. So, for many of their readers, English isn't their first language. Their writer's guidelines are similar to other clients I've written for, such as GoDaddy. It's the same guidelines they give in articles about writing for the web in general.
This is why my writing is often choppy.
So NIrV is the twitter Bible of the Bible translation world.
@@TheJesusNerd40 No 😁, the NIrV (New International Reader's Version) is simply among the easiest to read / understand bible translations, thanks to it being written at a third grade reading level. I am currently reading through it now for the first time, trying to read about 6 pages a day, so far I have stuck to my goal unlike with any other bible translation that I have tried. And it is helping me pick up details that I missed and did not understand in the KJV (King James Version) et cetera, so I definitely recommend giving it a try. You might be surprised, too, it is not just for kids et cetera, and can benefit anyone.
Fantastic Mark. One of your best videos. Well, put together superb.
Many thanks!
Great 👍 job as usual Mark 👏 another great episode, you explained everything very well about the NIV and NIRV.. I'll be honest it's not favorite translation. God Bless 🙌 🙏 ❤
Thanks for watching!
I’ve read the 1979 NIV all of my Christian walk. I love it…I love the KJV as well, but I don’t know if I could understand the word as well without my NIV. I have a 2011 as well but I’m always drawn to my old one. Thanks for this ✝️🙏❤️🔥
And do you believe in the deity of Christ? Do you trust in the blood of Christ to save you? I have a reason for asking!
I do. around 25 yrs ago as a new christian I struggled especially with OT 'thees and thous" and got a NIV. It truly helped me. I moved back to KJV and some NKJV. I truly love the Psalms in KJV and have primarily remained in that version with some reading of the "easy to read version". After your message on CSB, I will look at that too and not be 'afraid' to use NIV. Yes, I heard the warnings about it even from the pulpits... I seek Jesus and to know Him better and follow Him only, not man. I love listening to you and thank you@@markwardonwords
I really like the NIV Bible. I've been reading it since zondervan put it out years ago. I listen to only NIV when I listen to the audio Bible. Thank you for this informative video, I truly appreciate it. 😊
P. S. I was also told that it was a devilish version of the Bible, which is bologna.🙄
Although the English translation I most love and use in my personal life is the ESV, I have a tremendous amount of respect and appreciation for the NIV including the NIV 2011. The NIV was the English translation by which God saved me, and it's the first English translation I read in its entirety.
My main issue with the NIV 2011 is not that it uses gender inclusive language, which I don't have a principled objection to (in fact I think it is often more accurate, e.g., "brothers and sisters" when it's clear women are included), but rather the degree to which it uses gender inclusive language. That is, I would've preferred the NIV 2011 to have scaled back on its gender inclusive language use. For example, I would've preferred less frequent use of the singular plural pronoun ("they", "them") for third person masculine singulars ("he", "him"). That's because, even if its use is linguistically defensible (which I think it is), it more often than not sounds stylistically clunky to my ears, and as a consequence it makes for a less smooth reading experience to me as well; yet readability or clarity and naturalness is one of the NIV's best hallmarks. (As a side note, I sometimes imagine the CSB wouldn't have been necessary or at least it wouldn't have been as successful as it is now (at least within the SBC) if the NIV 2011 had been more conservative in its gender inclusive language use.)
There are other issues I have with the NIV (e.g. I think "meaningless" for hebel in Ecclesiastes is a poor translation), but every translation has similar issues.
Anyway, all this notwithstanding, I still very much like and use the NIV 2011. And one of the biblical scholars I most respect, Don Carson, says he really likes the NIV and regularly uses it all the time. See Carson's comments regarding the NIV here for example (starting at around 2:25):
ua-cam.com/video/ux_HEiAMI_w/v-deo.htmlsi=02jffXqAL-_j1pJZ&t=145
If the argument is that English has changed, its important to realize that this change was not an accident, but a targeted revolutionary movement to mold language around ideologies. If we allow Bible translations to follow English wherever it goes, we allow the enemies of the truth to be setting the agenda for Bible translation. In Christian speech, we ought to always set an example of using speech in a way that establishes Biblical truth, rather than merely aiding understanding.
Ultimately the core argument here is based on functionality, not fidelity. It's not the translation's job to make my job easy as a reader. It's the translation's job to give me God's word in English, faithfully. If I struggle with comprehension, there are a myriad of secondary tools I could use and I have no problem at all with the idea that people would use secondary tools like commentaries, study notes, devotionals, sermons, and so forth to aid their understanding.
Brother, I think I show in this video that I'm open to the argument in your first paragraph. But I'm left wondering if you actually heard what I said. This doesn't seem to be a response to what I said-or am I missing something?
I used to follow the argument in your second paragraph, and I think it does have some relevance. In other words, I think the NIV does sometimes draw the line too far toward interpretation. But then I think the ESV, KJV, NKJV, and NASB sometimes draw the line too far toward preserving Hebrew and Greek forms at the cost of intelligibility. So I'm glad I have both kinds of translations. I wouldn't be happy if I had only the one, now that I know I can have both. (I also get the sense that your second paragraph is not an answer to anything I actually said-but please do correct me if I'm wrong!)
I think you want people to call them study guides not bibles, remember the persecution the Catholics and Anglicans used to establish doctrinal tyranny, and God's kingdom wasn't furthered by it. Why not Latin only, why not Aramaic and Koine Greek, how about poors shouldn't have bibles? How do you feel about study bibles and reference bibles, they're not purely the word.... and is the word the books as written by human hands or the message and intent of Almighty God? The word predated bibles....
I have various translations. I like the NIV for its readability and reading large amounts of scripture in a short time.
Yes, me too!
I'm glad I found your channel. Reading through the comment section though is really exhausting sometimes. The theological division in the body of Christ is laughable, especially when we agree on 80% of the same teachings (Trinity, Resurrection etc)
I'm not the book smartest person so in my early 20s I relied on sermons to reveal hidden Bible truths or just wouldnt bother at all. Now with all the new accessible ways of studying the Bible (ie Mark Ward YT channel 😉) , a birds eye view of many translations instead of picking at the integrity of the translators and the help of Holy Spirit to teach me what was intended in scripture and have that shape my life, I can gladly say that I'm a budding scholar 😊. The word of God has helped be break addiction and subside cravings. The word of God is actively softening my heart everyday. The word of God is my therapy when I can't afford it. The word of God is shaping me to be a father different to the one I had.
If the word of God is blowing up your head and not changing your life then I think your doing it wrong lol
Ha! Love that!
@@markwardonwords :)
Awesome. I sincerely appreciate this. I fell for it but you cleared the fog and I’ll be dusting it off for side by side reading! TY!
What would be the influence of media in changing the language to more gender neutral terms? The media is mostly in the hands of ideologically motivated people.
Even if the majority of people don’t think like that the way of expressing things are just absorbed through the skin.
I visited my brother in Australia and they attend a very conservative church and even there the term used for spouse was partner. A word generally used for people living together in an unmarried state in our neck of the woods.
Reads beautifully! It's not the best for deep study. Ive went to my knees in tears of contrition as the Holy Spirit moved in me from reading verses in the NIV. Yes, I'd much rather read a CSB, NASB2020 or ESV today, but in the 80s and 90s, those didn't exist.
Great video and explanation!
Thank you!
A superlative presentation. It was very meaningful to me. I appreciate your careful thoughtfulness. I have some very minor disagreements. You said 'The ESV doesn't use inclusive language." It certainly does --much more than the 1984 NIV. But the ESV uses less than the 1969 Modern Language Bible. The latter was my favorite before I went with the 1984 NIV in 1998.
I do think that the 2011 NIV uses the correct amount of and usage of inclusive language. The Collins word bank determined how much they used in the translation as you referenced. The 2011 NIV and TNIV are the translations I use quite regularly. The NLT is my next favored one. I also make use of the NET, NJB, REB, Goodspeed, Norlie, Weymouth, ESV, NASB2020, MLB and the CEB (sparingly).
A good friend of mine made the same point. I can see that. I need to think about this more. I may be wrong on that point!
Thank you so much for making this video. A lot of people should watch this video. I read the KJV, NKJV, NLT, NASB, NIV, and Reina Valeria 1960. But my favorite translation is the NIV.
Share it with your friends! Thank you for the kind word!
I'm reading through the entire Bible for the first time. I'm using the ESV, but I frequently realize I have no idea what they're saying (Job 41:8-9). Then I reread it in the NIV and suddenly I get it! I think, for someone like me who's trying to understand the big picture, the NIV is really attractive. I don't know enough where small turns of phrase are a big deal because I'm still learning the broad strokes.
An excellent plan. Then, when you get to know the Bible better, come back through and puzzle through the things that appear different in the ESV. Ask yourself why they differ. You'll run into some good Bible study journeys that way.
Hi Mark, I have appreciated and benefited from your work! I began what I would call more serious study of scripture in the '84 NIV and moved to the ESV later and have remained there for many many years. Work like yours, my interest in premium Bibles and some of those FB pages so associated started me on a quest to read through multiple translations myself...slow going but I started by pairing ESV and NLT for this year and want to move to NIV '11 and NASB 95 as soon as I finish my current plan.
Sorry for the quick finger on the carriage return....at any rate there certainly has been some tribalism in my reformed circles around the ESV...not harsh and not in any condemnation of other translations that I have experienced but at a minimum a firm residence there. I am not off-put by the gender accuracy choices...and don't want this to be too long of a post so I will get to the heart of my question...curious for your insight on a passage such as Gal 3:26 where children is rendered instead of sons. It is true, in that culture, that the daughters could not inherit property and I think we can miss some of what Paul is saying correcting the gender use in a case like this. I believe in this case that son meant legal heir...rights not available to the woman...but women are clearly heirs in the gospel and clearly a radical claim in a sense that women are sons of God in like manner....I have really liked the little that I have read of the NIV '11 and would like to continue the joy in using it...but I am wondering about instances like this and if it is too quick to correct. Your thoughts would be appreciated.Thanks. Grace to you. - Andy
I actually think the nirv is better than the niv. For the way it breaks down passages and gives a clear dumbed down (excuse the expression) translation. I use it beside the Nkjv. When i need to break down a passage or several passages to give a clear understanding to people. Sometimes i think it's dumbed down to much. But can something be dumbed down to much? Still in my opinion a great tool to use for clarity. So I give it a 👍 up😊
What happens now that "they" is trending towards meaning someone who doesn't know his own gender? This is one reason I prefer sticking with the traditional generic "he". When he is only used when it means men, that adds a further place where the translator must apply his personal interpretation to the word. I was taught in English class to use either a generic he or a generic she in an entire writing. I used generic she in one essay, and it was really awkward
Y'all should officially become part of American English to replace ye / plural you.
I don't really think that "they" is trending toward meaning someone who doesn't know his or her own gender-though I totally get why you'd say that, and I, too, am alarmed at the transgender craze and the harm it does especially to the young.
I don't think people are actually, unselfconsciously using "they" to mean "someone who doesn't know his own gender." It still feels like a very artificial construct imposed successfully only (I'd guess) in elite, leftist spaces. It's not English. It's a special game played by a tiny sliver of English speakers.
Let me start by saying I hope you are right. I actually don't know all that much about the topic of transgender or its lingo, so you may well be right
But I did a little googling for this reply and found out that the alternate definition of "they" as "a non binary person" was added to Webster's dictionary back in 2019. Also, I I know that several of my younger relatives are using "they" to refer to a single and specific non binary person and are 100% on board with the concept. And these are all liberal protestant Christians.
It would be interesting to see what kind of study the next NIV update will come up with for pronouns, since the last update was before non binary gender was something most people even knew existed.
Now "they" still means "singular generic person previously referenced," exactly as the NIV uses it. But it now also has this new meaning, and I'm wondering if the new meaning will ever start impacting how clearly people understand the use of "they" in the NIV. I can't imagine anyone would think the Bible is making statements only about a non binary person, but who knows? I guess that is exactly why bible translation updates will forever be needed.
I started reading the NIV close just to be fair and had to admit that it’s actually a really solid translation. I love it and highly value it though I primarily use formal equivalents.
Just this very morning, Sept 4, 2022, I found a used 1988 printing of an NIV reference bible by Zondervan online. This version has not to this time been one of my much used versions. I noticed that it was a direct translation from the Critical Text, and not gone through the traditions of the other bible versions. I got loads of them already. After reading on biblegateway some of its verses that I look up to see if I like a particular version; I LIKE IT! So I purchased it at a very fare price. Double column with center reference. Can't wait to get it!!
It's a good one!
What a wonderfully informative video. Thank you so much. 39:21
Glad it was helpful!
How do you use a concordance when the NIV is not a word for word translation, rather it is a "dynamic equivalence"? Meaning you have no basis to understand the Hebrew or Greek used in the original texts. NIV really means Nearly Inspired Version.
Asking seriously: do you want an answer, or is this a rhetorical question?
Just got me an NIV I am excited to start reading it
I couple it with the New Living Translation for better understanding.
🙏🕊️🙏
The Blue Letter Bible app is a great resource. ✌️🤠
_”All I gotta say is …”_ If English dies out and some archaeologist digs up some of our libraries and then someone tries to translate our _”English”_ literature into whatever is commonly spoken then - well, good luck.
I remember reading the translation methodology of a certain Bible translation back in the 1970s (I don’t remember which one), it said that the translators decided to change the _”thees”_ and _”thous”_ from the KJV into contemporary English … *BUT* … they decided to retain those archaic pronouns when they *REFERRED TO GOD!*
I also love the fact that Peter commented on Paul's writings. Paul spoke colloquial Greek (slang). 1Thessalonians 4:17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. The word clouds and I can't believe scholars still translate this clouds when it means crowds. It is also used in Hebrews 12:1 clouds meaning crowds. The word air is spiritual. 2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. This is why Paul wrote the 2nd letter to the thessalonians. To clarify himself that christ is not coming til the 7 Trump. Ok I've tooken up way to much of this guys post lol. Nirv is a great tool to use along side with your standard Bible. To help clarify the English to difficult passages. Or a unknowing congregation. Or how you choose to use it. Great tool👍
I really appreciated Mark Ward's section on the debate over inclusive language in the NIV 2011 (beginning at approximately 15:00 and ending at approximately 32:00). It's a great contribution to the debate. A plea for peace indeed! And I agree with all that Ward has said here. I especially appreciate Ward framing the debate around the following four questions:
1. Is it true that a generic reference was intended by the Spirit speaking by the tongue of David? Did the Spirit intend to speak of males or of mankind excluding women?
2. Is it true that "Blessed is the man" is now in fact now understood by the average non-ideological reader to mean "Blessed is the male"? Has English changed?
3. If the Spirit did intend to specify males, did he do so because of linguistic or because of theological reasons? That is, does this passage say "Blessed is the man" in Hebrew (and it does) because that's the word, ish, that was used in such circumstances around the time, or because "man" is what Poythress and Grudem call a "representative generic"? Is it important to maintain "man" here in order to preserve the truth that the man was not created for the woman but the woman for the man or that the man was created first? Or is that reading too much into a merely linguistic choice?
4. If English has changed, and man is no longer generic in contexts like Psalm 1:1, has it changed because of ideological pressure from feminists or due to natural forces within the language?
Yes! Thank you for doing this!
Thank you for addressing the NIV and NirV translations and their associations with gender inclusivity considerations. Most of my peers read the NIV 1984 most of the time. I read it as well, yet most of the translations I read are more literal. I'll admit that after purchasing the NIV 1911 seeing "brothers and sisters," instead of brothers came as a big surprise. Arguments like yours help me appreciate the merits of this inclusivity.
There aren't maybe a ton of people in my conservative environs who are defending gender inclusivity. But if Carson can do it… So can I! ;)
@@markwardonwords I just watched this video again. I must say that I admire your compassion for recognizing the merits of using a simplified translations for those with reading difficulties. Thank you for that and God bless.
Thank you for the message and the explanation. I have both the TNIV and the ESV in hard bound and Logos. I aways use more than one translation, but you still have to do your research on the translation. It is like ice cream. You like a variety of flavors. (sorry for the bad analogy).
No, that’s good!
I now believe the NIV is the word of God too. I have a little ministry of giving away study bibles , and I want NIV for poor readers. I'm motivated to Macarthur study bibles - they are so good .
Great choice!
Since watching your videos videos, it made me relook at the translation. ( yes, I was raised with KJV, cleave to the NKJV). But, 1. My pastor uses the translation, our Sunday school ( that still meets?) class curriculum is the NIV . And really what if all translations are about is word choices. Has the doctrine changed? But sadly, when the NIV 2011 came out, my denomination went out of their way to destroy the translation, only to make a cover-band translation. So, I’m re reading the NIV, having a few “ ah ha” moments.
One of the best uses of the NIV is how it is 'keyed' (via the G/K numbers) to an abundance of lexical tools. In fact, as far as I am aware, no other translation and no other numbering systems (including the Tyndale one employed by the NLT Study Bible, for example) has as many resources connected to it (such as the NIDOTTE, NIDNTTA, NIDNTTE, The Revised Expositors Bible Commentary Series, The Cornerstone Biblical Commentary Series, all of the Zondervan produced English-Hebrew or English-Greek Concordances, and so on).
For this reason, which I do not believe was mentioned by Mark in an otherwise excellent video, the NIV may be the best translation of choice for some (and this despite the proliferation of online and other digital tools)
This is an excellent, excellent point! I've never used G/K numbers, because I haven't needed to. I can go straight to the Hebrew and Greek in Logos. That's why I overlooked this great point!
I was raised with the NIV & then came to faith reading the NLT. Because I never grew up with the KJV, I find that the ESV makes me kinda angry and frustrated when I read it. My church and everyone I respect loves the ESV. I feel awful that I just don’t understand it. I recently got an NIV because I want something more word for word than the NLT but not as clunky as the ESV. CSB is good but still limited in additions.
I have attended a kjvo church for many years and really never questioned it until I attended a Christian university. They used the NIV as their text and I grew to really like it. I primarily use the ESV these days for personal study as I prefer a formal translation. I often comparison read with the NIV although I’m in the camp of not caring much for the gender inclusive language. I enjoyed this discussion and look forward to hearing more.
✔
Regarding singular “they” - it’s well worth pointing out to people that singular “they” has been in the English language for at least a century or two longer p than singular “you.”
Got a citation handy?
I just read the first chapter of Romans in the NIrV out of curiosity. My kids are pretty good readers so I don't think I will employ it for that purpose, but one thing that positively stood out to me was how clearly they treated the topic of sexual sin. I think this is a death blow to the argument that there is a covert agenda from the NIV Publishers/translators to soften language on this topic. It's kind of hard to make the case that they're trying to give cover for homosexuality (which I have bern told by more than a few KJV onlyists) when they're denouncing it in such plain detail even in their children's version.
Thanks for your explanation. My concern with gender inclusive language in Bible translation is not so much the surface grammatical issue, but rather the meta hermeneutics issue of blurring the line between "audience" and "application". Your anecdote of young girls believing that "the Bible was written for boys" is heart-breaking, but it raises the question, "To whom was the Bible (or portions of the Bible) written?" Some parts of the Bible were not primarily written for the New Testament era Church. Depending on your covenant/dispensational view, you'll have a varying degree of views on how much of the Bible was written for "you" as the primary audience, but we must always be aware of the difference between "audience" and "application". Perhaps some parts of the Bible were written to Jews, and it would be wrong to do away with the Jewishness of those parts in a translation just because we today do not write in ethnically segregating ways (just like translating to "brothers and sisters", what if we translate Deuteronomy 6:4 as "Hear, O Israel and Gentiles..." just because the Gospel is given to Gentiles today?). I see the gender issue in a similar way to recognizing ethnic Israel as the primary audience in many passages. Perhaps there are some parts of the Bible that were written to an immediate male audience, such as the admonition of a father to a son in the Proverbs. I believe that Proverbs is "applicable" to everyone, whether male or female, Jew or Gentile. But that's an application matter and I don't think the application should be incorporated in the translation. The Bible was written to cultures that recognized male leadership and thus male audience in many instances, so I think an honest translation should reveal that aspect of the biblical cultures even to today's egalitarian readers. I think that if a young girl were to ask, "Was the Bible written to boys", an accurate response should be "Many parts of the Bible were written to male Jewish heads of families and priesthoods and churches, while some parts were written to everyone, but even those parts written to boys can be applicable to girls". I say these things because I do see today a slippery slope of assuming that every part of the Bible is written to "us" and this leads to theological immaturity and taking verses out of context and such. We do need literacy with respect to the differentiation between "audience" and "application", so I would be cautious against a translation that starts to blur those lines.
I resonate with a fair bit of this. Can you give a specific example of a rendering in the NIV 2012 that you would alter for these reasons?
@@markwardonwords Yes, I can think of a good one. The term "my son (בְּ֭נִי)" appears many times in Proverbs. It appears in Proverbs 1:8, 1:10, 1:15, 2:1, 3:1, 3:11, 3:21. The context is clear in those passages that a father is instructing his son. Then in 4:1, we see the term, "O sons (בָ֭נִים)" which is translated as "O sons" in both the ESV and NIV. The NIV still goes with "sons" here because the context is clear that these are men being instructed with respect to the "woman" to choose in life (lady wisdom or lady folly). The NIV continues translating בְּ֭נִי and בָ֭נִים as "my son" or "sons" for a few more times because the context is still clear that these are sons being instructed with respect to things like lust for a prostitute. But then in 8:32, even though the same term בָ֭נִים appears again, this time the NIV translates it as "my children". The ESV keeps "O sons" in 8:32. I think the NIV is wrong here because the transition words "And now" (ESV) or "Now then" (NIV) in 8:32 indicates that these בָ֭נִים are the same audience as those from 4:1 onward, i.e. males. The NIV rendering incorporates an "application" into 8:32 (certainly these words of wisdom applies to everyone) but it's not a proper contextual translation where males (the same males who struggled with lust in the earlier chapters) are still in view. I think there is an "application" that is lost in the NIV. In the ESV rendering, you can get two applications: (1) the words of wisdom that follow from 8:32 are applicable to both men and women. (2) for men specifically to stay safe from lust, there are these additional words of wisdom to follow. Every time an application is fused with the translation, you semantically limit other legitimate applications. And I think that is what is happening here with the gender inclusive translation of 8:32. So that's one example where I would keep the gendered "sons" instead of the gender inclusive "children". The Proverbs are not a random list of "helpful tips" to live life written for everyone at the time. The Proverbs are a list of instructions for the male leadership in Israel to stay on the right path so that they and the people they govern will not slide into apostacy like the Gentile nations around them. Sure, we can apply those words of wisdom to everyone now. But our now-centric, Euro-American-centric, egalitarian, mindset often waters down the historicity of these biblical books. And I don't think that's the best way to translate the Bible.
Ok, one more question, then I promise I'll put time into a reply! Are there any "gender-accurate" translations in the NIV 2011 that you support?
@@markwardonwords Sure. Since we're on the topic of "sons", בָ֭נִים can be and often is translated neutrally as "children" as in Genesis 3:16 ("...in pain you shall bring forth children (בָ֭נִים).") where the context is clearly referring to all children regardless of gender. In passages such as these where the context obviously necessitates translating בָ֭נִים as "children", I would support a gender inclusive word in the NIV or any translation. But by the NIV translators' own admission, the בָ֭נִים in Proverbs 4:1 are "sons", so there is no contextual reason to change them to "children" in Proverbs 8:32 where the context is still referring to the same audience. I don't mind translating בָ֭נִים as "children" for contextual reasons. But it seems wrong to me to translate בָ֭נִים as "children" for applicational reasons when the intended primary audience is still supposed to be males. Surprisingly, the KJV translates בָ֭נִים as "children" in both Proverbs 4:1 and 8:32. It is possible to interpret both instances of בָ֭נִים as referring to "children" in general. That's a judgment with respect to the context (i.e. one's view on whether the author was speaking to all of his children, both males and females). But the NIV's translation of בָ֭נִים as "sons" in Proverbs 4:1 and "children" in Proverbs 8:32 seems to be based not on a robust analysis of the larger context but rather an ad hoc decision based on only the most immediate context (i.e. whether the immediate sentence or paragraph refers to some kind of a father-son relationship). I get the sense that the NIV wants every male reference gone as much as possible, except where it is obvious in the most immediate context (at the sentence or paragraph level) that the word should be gendered. So I think this initiative (or agenda, if you want to get more cynical) gets in the way of translating the text with a more macro-level analysis of the intended audience.
I'll also add my views on the ἀδελφοί debate. Much has been said about ἀδελφοί having a "Schrodinger's gender" (it could be male or gender-inclusive, and we just don't know for sure unless there is a clear indication from context. It's not always easy to decide what is intended in a given passage and the ESV might have to err on one side and the NIV might have to err on the other). So I won't regurgitate those arguments about what to do in specific instances. My point, which I don't think has been made before (unless I have missed it) is that the NIV translators cannot claim to be pursuers of gender-accuracy because they are avoiding the most accurate gender-inclusive word, which is not "brothers and sisters" but rather "siblings". The NIV translators are avoiding the use of "siblings" because of stylistic, liturgical, and ecclesio-cultural reasons, not because of grammatical reasons. "Siblings" really is the most accurate word to use when the gender is not clear. "Brothers" and "Brothers and sisters" are both prone to under-signification or over-signification, respectively. But why does the NIV avoid "siblings" and instead use "brothers and sisters"? The reason is because the NIV is just as committed more to established style, liturgy and church culture as the ESV is rather than to accuracy in translation. Nobody in church calls each other "siblings". We only use "brothers", "brethren", "brothers and sisters", "sisters". So the NIV is just as clouded by liturgical and eccleio-cultural demands in their choice of how to translate ἀδελφοί as the ESV is. So I don't think the NIV can claim to be any more gender-accurate than the ESV. The ESV at least admits that "brothers" is church jargon that should be learned by readers.
We are so priviledged to have the Bible in our language. I have done ok reading the NIV all theses years. I use other versions as well but the NIV has been a blessing to me.
Amen!
I really love NIV translation ever since. Its the translation I can easily read and understand. Praise the Lord! May I ask if anybody have an old or used leather NIV/ESV bible? Can I buy it for cheaper price it's quite expensive here in my place. I really love to have one, a leather bible, it's my dream🙏
NIV refers Isaiah 14:12 Morning Star same identity as Revelation 22:16 as Jesus, other Bibles have the name there O Lucifer as the Morning Star so not to mixed up with Jesus as the true Morning Star in REV.
I think that one of the reasons that Peter said that some of Paul's writings were hard to understand could be that both Peter and John were examined in Acts 4 and were determined to be uneducated and "unlettered." Naturally they had time to learn a common usage in reading and writing during their Apostolic service. However, Paul was a "Pharisee of Pharisees," which required him to have had a higher education than the average person in that day. Paul could write "lawyer ease," while they might not be able to do. And could most probably find some of his writings confusing.
I grew up with the NIV 84 but switched to the ESV after the 2011 version but I am a high level reader with ministerial training so I can handle it....
Then I had 2 daughters with Autism.
They are starting catechism and I wanted to get them a Bible but they are in 5th grade and can only read at about a 2nd grade level. The NIrV was recommended and I was a little nervous about it being accurate. I have been pleasantly surprised (as is my husband who has studied biblical Greek and Hebrew). And with the "Adventure Bible," I was able to get them each a Bible in their favorite color. Which is kinda important when you have Autistic children....
We also use The Action Bible and Bible force. Because pictures.
I an fortunate that the WELS created a simplified catechism which our CLC pastor is happy to use. I wish there was more mainstream Bible materials for people with disabilities.
Excellent! Yes, I do love the NIrV for just the purpose you name!
So many in the world do not ave access to a Bible they can read in this world. I praise God for having the priviedge of having a NIV. I have grown and learnt so much using it in the last 40 years. Yes, there are other versions that are better in one area or another. But I enjoy its balenced approach and I think it has served me well.
Right!
Hearing from the Holy Ghost is what causes to understand the Scriptures, and not newer Bible translations. This is why people can read all kinds of Bible's, and, as long as the verses aren't changed, they can come to the same conclusion
I'm not being snarky here, brother-I'm genuinely asking: if it's the Holy Ghost who causes us to understand and not newer Bible translations, wouldn't that apply to the Hebrew and Greek? Why bother with translation at all?
And I know it's almost impossible not to hear this as snarky, but I insist it's not: did the Holy Spirit teach you the word "besom" when you read Isa 14:23?
@@markwardonwords that's the reason for a good translation. God used people to translate His Word into the English understanding. What you are saying doesn't sound snarky at all. God preserves His Word, even in translation. The Bible even shows us this with Sarah, when she laughed and God didn't literally tell her the exact same words that she laughed with, but what she was speaking from. We cannot truly discern what God is telling us through His Word, unless we have a Guide. If an older or newer Bible translation is the True Word of God, then God will sanctify it and breathe through it. What I mean by this, is if the translators truly got the original intent and wrote that down and composed it into a book.
But if somebody just took what was inspired and decided that parts of it should say what it never intended, because they are reading over it superficially, then God does not sanctify it nor bless it so that when other reason it, then the Holy Spirit comes along and helps to open up their understanding.
The Holy Spirit is able to cause people to be able to discern different languages that they never knew before, just as much as He causes other folk to be able to hear the wonderful works of God in their own language. so, it is possible, but more people are carnal and so, they need translating. There have been people who couldn't read before, and God performs a miracle, and they are able to read. There are modern day miracles that do happen. I walk sickness free year after year and God has done other things that have delivered me from dying in the past. I also don't chase after such things but rather keep my mind renewed in the Word of God. I haven't quit reading the Bible for over a decade.
But in general, alot of people don't experience walking sickness free year after year. Although, they walk in other miracles or things, that they may not realize is directly the power of God working in their lives
I don't doubt the motives of you or the NIV translators. However, I find myself stumbling whenever I hear a plural-singular "they/them" usage. It just reads as so unnatural to me, so forced. It does the exact opposite of what the NIV is supposed to do for me. It makes the road bumpy. I really do wish I found it more natural because it would increase the usefulness of the NIV2011 to me. And I am not satisfied going back to the 1984 and using that instead. For one, it's not as easily accessible on websites like BibleGateway that are useful for quick reference. And more importantly, you lose the benefit of the updated scholarship and increased clarity in many situations in the 2011 version. It's really a shame.
I actually think that it would be great if translators did something similar to what some font designers do. They could introduce textual variants. So, they could make the same translation have any gendered sentences written in both ways and allow the reader to choose which one he wants based on his preferences. With fonts, you see this in things like slashed versus dotted zero variants, two-story versus one-story letter "a" variants, etc.
There's some real possibility here. But the more secret codes we add to Bible translations, the less accessible they are to the uninitiated-the man of 1 Cor 14 who comes into the assembly and is called to account by our intelligible words.
If you want to study to be approved, 2 Ti 2:15, then the Strong's Concordance is a must for examining word definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words that all Bible translations are translated from. And the only Bible that is keyed to the Strong's Concordance is the King James version.
Luke, actually other Bibles are keyed to Strong's, too-sort of. It's a bit complicated to explain. In Logos you can look up Hebrew and Greek words from any major English translation.
But actually, that word "study" in 2 Tim 2:15. What does it mean? Are you sure you know? I always thought I did, but I was wrong! I encourage you to watch my video on it: ua-cam.com/video/Nzgmi6I2HIE/v-deo.html
@@markwardonwords Do you know Mark, that is the first time I looked up the Strongs Concordance definition for the Greek word translated into English word study. I see the point you are making. But I think Paul makes clear about what he means by study he writes in the next chapter.
2 Timothy 3:14-17 KJVS
[14] But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them ; [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. [16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Granted the end target is to be found in Christ at the first resurrection. It requires due diligence to allow the Spirit to grow the fruit of the spirit in you. Symbiosis of both parties.
Romans 8:13 KJVS
[13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Mark, you may find some value in my website. Read the first article and see if you want to read on. There may be insight on subject matter for future videos for you.
www.justifiedfreely.com
I have the Tecarta Bible app with Strong’s p, cost 99 cents. The words are underlined and when you tap on them you can open the Strong’s and Thayer definitions
@@lukewagner8871, I checked out your site. May the Lord use you to bless his people! Another dictionary you might get is Louw-Nida's NT lexicon.
I was disappointed when I found that I could only purchase the 2011 version within my electronic suite… but once I looked at the changes… I decided that my disappointment was unfounded.
Paragraphs suit my reading style quite well.
Yes, paragraphs! Love 'em!
@@markwardonwords Plus… it is easier to go over scripture context when people grab one verse to justify a ‘new’ revelation.
I never thought I'd be an NIV user. I was set on knjv as a teen. I then liked the esv. Then the NASB 2020 caught my eye, but the more I learn about the NIV, the more that I feel that it is readable and accurate and is probably the main translation I'll stick with
I'm personally partial to the NLT translation. But I enjoy my NIV book as well
Enjoy!
Some translations have more punch than others, the current NLT "hits". I agree with most of the interpretive liberties and such, yeah some people don't like them doing some steering and it sounds bad, but almost everytime I research their efforts I agree. Galatians 5:11 mutilation is funny, stuff about various despots in 1 Kings definitely came out clearer and more braveheart style.... that's worth trading for the finer details sometimes.
Thank you Brother Mark. 🌹🌹🌹
You are very welcome!
My church still use the NIV because of the reading level and understanding.
It's a choice I think more churches ought to make than do. It's a good choice.
@@markwardonwords The Bibles I wanted to get from the Gideon's were the ESV for the church but the pastor said he loved the ESV but he told me he me that his concern was the readability of the ESV. He saw the NIV would be better for the church which as the the Chaplain, I agreed.
@@charlesratcliff2016 if I had to pick though between the NASB and the ESV I would pick the ESV any day of the week. The Gideon's gave me a New Testament in NASB and I found it was a slog in terms of understandability. Maybe I need to give it another chance as that was years ago but I am stuck in my ways a bit. The NIV though is probably the more universal option of translation.
@@BBC600 I have gotten a ESV bible from the Gideons.
@@charlesratcliff2016 Yes, I gathered that. I was just telling of my personal experience. Happy to hear they are handing out the ESV. :-) I have an ESV that I got (my grandma was a Christian book distributor and so she got it for me for my birthday upon request) as the youth pastor suggested it to us as being his personal favourite and the one he would be reading from at the youth group I attended. Mine has a CD-ROM included so I found that attractive too (even though even at that time the technology was obsolete).
Thanks Mark for pointing me to this video. I still have my old NIV 1984 that a friend gave me in high school 13 years ago. I started to read the 2011 NIV once and was blown away by the differences. I prefer the 1984 NIV for staying more true and easy to read still. Sad the 2020 NASB has become more modern in gender language just like the 2011 NIV.
I haven't looked at the 2020 NASB in detail, but I don't get the impression that it has erred in its use of gender language. Give a listen to this video's arguments and see what you think!
@markwardonwords I did watch it and agree with what you said. Yes the newer versions have good intentions but may not be necessary
I consider the NIV to be an acceptable translation but neither the best nor the most desirable. Reading codes and legally referenced standards was an important part of my work. I would not have wanted to depend on a paraphrase or simple English version of them. I am dependent on English translations of scripture being fluent only in English. Scripture is at the very least as important to me as the above sited documents. I do not want the Word of God to be paraphrased to the least practical extent.
I totally get this. But this line of thinking can go places I don't think you want to go-because someone can always push toward the *im*practical extent, and they do. Watch my INCREDI-NASB video. =) ua-cam.com/video/reBR7di1Nr8/v-deo.html
Someone has to draw a line somewhere between literalism and paraphrase, and I think the NIV draws a line at a *useful* place. At the very least, regular readers of more formal translations should check the NIV regularly.
I really enjoyed your breakdown of the gender inclusive debate. Over all I agree with you, most of the time it doesn't bother me when it makes sense that the author is talking to more than just men.
But you also touched on something that I do think is compelling from the other side of the argument and that's the male representational theological idea. And to some degree we still do this in contemporary English when we refer to the whole of humanity "mankind". And I think that should be preserved. However, that's what multiple translations do!
Right! And surely good Christians can disagree on this point!
Very thought-provoking. I will now have to buy (and read) an NVI (the Spanish equivalent of the NIV). I have been too proud to do so in the past. God forgive me.
My Spanish isn't as good as my English, but I had the NVI for years until I lost it somehow. I remember liking it!
It also needs to be mentioned that, those who know the Good Shepherd and His heart, also know that He means all His sheep, not just the male sheep, even though it might be in print as a 'he', 'him', or 'man'. He is a personal God and tailors His words to the sheep He is speaking to!
I'm wondering if there will be an episode "NLT is the best translation".
@@glenn1611 I blame the American Bible Society for not making the Good News Bible available in a variety of editions. When I recently purchased some copies for my students in a high school Bible class, I found that the options were quite limited (and essentially nonexistent for anyone who wants a premium Bible.) The translation itself is still one of the best of its kind.
Such an episode is planned!
@@MAMoreno I have a copy of the GNB which has been "Anglicised" and have seen an Australian edition. The copy in my library which includes the Apocrypha/Deuterocanonicals in a section between Malachi and Matthew is the American text.
Regarding the gendered language points, your arguments are sensible. The NIV is a great translation prioritising readability. The problem is once you agree to this type of argument it is like acid and applied to every other part of the Bible until all sensible gendered language is removed from the Bible.
I really don't think so; I think there is a natural stop, because I don't think any language, including English, will ever get rid of all ability to refer to an overriding feature of our natural world, namely the sexes. I think the NIV is guarding against a specific, narrow misunderstanding and that it has good guardrails.
@@markwardonwords You might be right. I will hold out cause other stuff I thought would never be given credence did shift. I do agree that the NIV is a good translation that helps today's plough boys read the Bible.
Thanks - fantastic video!
Glad you enjoyed it!
Mark, do you have any insight into NIV's use of the singular reading from Codex D for Mark 1:41? Codex D is blatantly interpolated garbage. Why did they do this?
No time to really dig right now; my impression is that those who go with that reading are using the "harder reading" principle.
@@markwardonwords It shows lack of judgment.
My only gripe with the NIV is they don’t include the word Selah in the Pslams . They have a footnote explaining how it was included at the end of certain verses. Other than that I like the NIV.