This feels pretty dumb
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- Опубліковано 12 чер 2024
- We'll talk Tales of the Empire on today's Star Wars Lore video
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I interpreted it as less of she literally sat down and designed it, rather she came up with the idea of an advanced, shielded and more effective Tie variant that she then had her people design and she merely presented and took credit for it. Kinda ties into the themes of her taking advantage of the people that got her where she is.
Where are these people? All these extremely talented military ship designers just hanging out on that backwater planet that she lords over? This is part of the problem with how they wrote things: Tales of the Empire was not the right medium. They would need WAY more time to give satisfactory explanations for a lot of this stuff. Instead it feels like lazy fanfics.
@@bluemoondm8629it’s the people that were pissed when she came back and she said they didn’t get the tie contract
If that were the case, Pelleaon and Thrawn wouldn't have been interested in her, they would have gone to the people that actually designed it. It's also implied that she's the one who designed the massive hyperspace ring that brought the Chimera to Peridia, so I think she is intended to be a talented engineer.
@@xxjared0571 those were factory workers. They specifically talk about near slave labor in factories, but there are like 200 people in that tiny town
My head canon for Thrawn was always that he was ahead Tie Defender project, and by that i mean he had the vision to elaborate the requirements instead of designing the ship itself. Making a a refugee witch from a low tech tribal society design a ship (which already is a family of ships from Sienar) not only is nonsense but also takes away from Thrawns' storytelling.
What I thought was really dumb about the new republic envoy is how at the end of the episode Morgan destroyed the transmitter and said "no one is coming" as if the new republic wouldn't investigate the distress singal coming from a planet where they just sent an embassodor, especially when said ambassdor doesn't return.
Yeah. Even if she didn’t send a signal it would make sense that someone would look into the disappearance of an ambassador and her team
Exactly! The response was just as bad too, “Who is this? We got your distress beacon.” Did the ambassadors ship not have a recognizable signature? So many issues with that scene.
That wasn't a signal sent to the NR, it was a genealogy distress signal sent to anyone nearby. If you look at the subtitles, it's actually Bo Katan who receives it.
Considering that episode takes place after the empires loses at Endor, in the mandalorian we see the NR struggle to handle the power vacuum there is so much open space now they have to clear. There are still imperial remnants floating around, and the NR has to manage clearing imperials and policing the galaxy. Her distress signal could’ve easily gotten lost in the chaos as it got so bad the NR was “rehabilitating” and adding imperial officers to their ranks to help them manage the chaos that is taking over an entire galaxy. Plus so many planets were probably asking for help and many incidents of pirates probably skyrocketed with the absence of the empire. I could easily see how her distress beacon could get lost.
Who says she was saying the truth and wasn't just threatening him?
I get the feeling she’s the one person in the group project that didn’t do a whole lot but is the best at presenting
And Thrawn was that dumb for thinking she did all by herself? Srry, doesn't make sense. We should't be here damage controlling dumb lore breaking writting.
why was she even in a star fighter group program like that though? wouldnt it have been the actual team engineers who knew what they were making?
What, is her story how she randomly walked into a room of nerds and bullied them into making her the lead of a project she didnt know how it works? shes from dathomir. this has nothing to do with gender and everything to do with being from a culture of backwoods inhabitants on a planet that didnt have much technology and relied on literal magic.
You know what would have made sense? if she was actually used to help create a new type of armor or focusing crystals for something like a new new super weapon that could literally survive a super nova.
Maybe using the force and sith alchemy and other concepts to create a limited amount of super armor for a few elite star fighters or a entire star destroyer. and that would be impressive, it would use her unique skill set, that pretty much no one else in the Empire had, why is it so difficult to use people's natural gifts and talents in a sensible way?
She can lead/ direct the project without being the detailed designer . Such a leader would still be of interest to Thrawn.
the steve jobs' of the world
@@gabbylikeskicks well that and giving presentations is an incredible waste of her gifts in the force. if palpatine saw that he would probably have someone whipped for wasting someone capable of investigating crime in the empire being wasted giving talks on a starfighter they don't probably even have a specialization in designing.
As a recently retired Airman assigned to several test and evaluation squadrons, I've worked with several defence contractors. To me, she seems more of a program director than the designer of the TIE Defender. Designers of military equipment are rarely seen by outside agencies unless a VIP is taking a tour of the manufacturing facility.
Glad to see someone who's in that style of expertise IRL commenting on this. You guys give a lot more context.
Exactly this. A program manager can understand the military value and uniqueness but would not be the original designer.
What I find weird is that Morgan doesn't seem affiliated with Sienar Fleet Systems at all yet she and her team apparently desgined the Defender completely independently from them and then went to the Empire so they could hand it off to Sienar to build.
It's like if a group of civvies designed a F-36 based on Lockheed's previous designs and handed presented it to the DOD.
@@josesanchezrodriguez1783 excellent analogy and a good point.
I think an example of a program director in Star Wars would be Director Krennic and a designer would be Galen Erso.
They never said that she personally designed the Tie Defender. She was only a representative for the defense contractors that was hoping to secure an imperial contract to manufacture them. Her job was simply to convince the empire to buy their product.
I see okay then, that clears out everything.
Then why do they want “her mind”? Cause she’s a good presenter? Heck no
@@timmerhill9358 That's why Elsebeth's presentation was mothballed. And it's quite hard to believe Elsebeth designed the Defender. Although I won't question it if she did Design the TIE Phantom's Technology.
@@timmerhill9358Do you know that Steve Jobs didn't actually design any system or piece of software for most of the products he is famous for?
Still, it is undeniable that without him Apple wouldn't be where it is now and probably modern computers would look a lot different than what we are used to.
The trope of a single genius scientist capable designing something like a new revolutionary aircraft from the ground up and completely on it's own is just that, a trope:
Even the most skilled expert of aerodynamics in the world wouldn't be able to design the airplane electric systems, or its landing gear. And the genial chemist that developed a new incredible radar cloaking material wouldn't probably even know how to apply it to the plane without the help of some other materials scientists and engineers more specialized in other fields.
There is nothing contradictory in the TIE Defender being an idea completely from Morgan herself and, at the same time, not being her the one that designed the flux-capacitor for the new turbo atomic quantum warp drive of the third engine.
@@timmerhill9358 no, if im not mistaken she said something along the lines of "Your engines were inefficient, so i relocated them and i fixed a few other flaws the defender had"
I can’t stand how dumb the new republic is in canon. They only send four guns with the ambassador to force Morgan out of her own compound with no back up or follow up? They are cartoonishly dumb in every appearance they have had under Disney
Props to disnep.
They made cringe new Republic even more cringy.
In old canon with all their incompetence they atleast had heroes and powerfull post imperial industry to use from.
In new canon they are just cringe without any reedeming factors.
In order for the Sequels to make sense (specifically allowing the First Order to build up a military and take over the whole galaxy in like fifteen movie minutes), the New Republic had to be astronomically naive.
Sounds similar like that Republican officer that said to Baylan Skoll nah you ain’t a Jedi, surrender!
Funny enough, in the pretty great Disney books. The New Republic is actually very well written
The more I think about Tales of the Empire, the more I believe it was a mess. It was an eyecandy of incredible graphics and cameos, but the story was full of holes, safe play and inconsistencies.
That's the whole career of Dave Filoni, why was he praised as the best thing since sliced bread?
@@Hello-bi1pmBecause Clone Wars and Rebels. But that was long ago. Things have changed after many years of disney being in charge
@@Makocat these also are full of holes, safe play and inconsistency
@@Hello-bi1pm because he was better than Disney and Kathleen Kennedy, which is an extremely low bar
Yeah it didnt bring anything
I’m shocked you weren’t more excited to see non-Nightsister Witches of Dathomir. I know they’ve already been reintroduced in canon but I think we can all agree that showing up in an animated series is a much more serious and substantive reintroduction that harbors more to come for them.
Tales of the Empire: *retcons Thrawn being the designer of the TIE Defender to Morgan Elsbeth*
EchkhartsLadder: "That is dumb."
Is not a retcon
Yeah it is dumb.
Stealing the TIE Defender from Zaarin, giving it to Thrawn in DisCan only to steal it again for a nightsister industrialist lol
Thrawn didn't invent the TIE Defender. Zaarin did.
@@grandadmiralzaarin4962 Not in Canon.
Now that you point it out, Eli Vanto in screen woulda been absolutely amazing
My main take on the Morgan eps is they were nice looking but shallow, like a well presented meal that’s unsatisfying. We already knew her backstory, seeing it was unnecessary, I don’t care about the exact event transpiring that led her to be an industrialist, we saw her people purged, we can infer.
They're making the connection with Morgan to that shady dude in Ahsoka on Corellia at the shipyards for the TIEs.
This reminds me when, Ahsoka invented the Marg Sabl tactic...
I feel pretty dumb sometimes. I am not a smart man
Eck, I don't think people are upset with the Pellaeon change because it's too similar to Legends or something, it's because Disney/Filoni keep breaking their OWN canon. I want consistency, and outside of major errors that needs fixing, if they tell us a thing is the way it is, I don't want them changing it just for the lulz. Canon works because it's a shared foundation for fans to work with. If you keep changing the foundation, anything else built on it will be undermined.
Star Wars Lore was changed multiple times under Lucas' management. Largely because he allowed people to write what they wanted... and then did the movies he wanted to make, undoing those stories as _his_ contributions became canon... and rarely retconning his own work.
Legends consistency was also a mess (again, permitting people to write what they want results in the Sun Crusher), when Disney bought Lucasfilm and Lucas Arts. Yet, the fans were able to "pick and choose" what they considered canon (so they ditched the stuff which made no sense, and kept the things they liked).
The issue with Disney Canon is... there wasn't _any_ consistency starting with Episode VII and that left Lucasfilm's story team trying to fix the problems the other "division" allowed to be created. Then their solutions needed to be fixed as another division creates new conflicts, and so a never ending series of retcons.
*Shrugs*
TL;DR Lucasfilm was doing a lot of retcons under Lucas and the fan base remained. Thus the issue isn't changing the foundations... it's just the foundation never existed to begin with under Disney.
@aralornwolf3140
No. Lucas didn't let people write whatever they wanted. Star Wars lore under Lucas was regulated and scrutinized, and the multi-media project doubled as a campaign to clean up errors, despite TCW being Filoni's unregulated fanfiction.
Bro George Lucas Star wars Had Like 30 years of Lore and Material, Disney has fuked Up their own Canon since day one
@@aralornwolf3140 thats not the problem. the problem is their wasnt a central vision that was appealing to fans. it was chaos, a room where everyone kept throwing different plates of spaghetti at all the walls and the ceiling. It was a mess. and some people were messing with other peoples spaghetti to boot (metaphors are fun)>>
anyways. the suncrusher had interesting ideas, my only complaint is it was too small. it should have been a lot larger.
@@bluehero-96 Oh my God people still think Filoni was solely responsible for TCW and it wasn't mostly Lucas' doing? George Lucas didn't care to know jack about the EU, it was mostly the work of Pablo Hidalgo and Leland Chee that kept the EU consistent, not George.
Basically the way things worked then was George basically did whatever he wanted with lore/canon and he set general guidelines for the EU. Pablo and Leland were the ones who tried to keep the EU from turning into a mess with the canon tier system. TCW was George's brainchild and he hired Filoni to help direct the series - everything in TCW was approved by George, with some controversial decisions coming straight from him. The tier system was generally movies>TCW>EU, because George was heavily involved with TCW. Pablo and Leland would come in after George and Filoni to try to keep things consistent with the EU, and all of that was thrown out the window when George sold Star Wars to Disney, and they made the asinine decision to try to keep all the movies and shows and novels and comics and games as one continuity instead of using a tier system like before.
Yes, thank you, the episodes felt like extended trailers.
The problem I think people are having is that Throwns motivations have changed from EU to Disney lore. I felt the real Thrawn did what he did in the EU made more sense and calculated because the Vong are coming. The only thing Thrawn would be preparing is for the return of Palpatine with Project Necromancer. They are trying to attach to the shitty movies when the original motivations were far more affective, clear and believable.
Filoni doing what he does best. Retconning and stealing from legends.
It's amazing how people still praise him despite all he does is steal and modifies from his betters.
And Kennedy Canon itself.
@@aster4jadenBecause his style used to be better. He was praised back then. But nowadays nobody is liking the retcons he has been introducing. This started with the bad patch Ep1. Probably there was another case of retconning prior to this but that's the earliest I can remember post Rebels. If anything. He began losing good faith with Resistance. The people that still praise him just remember how good Clone wars and rebels was back then.
What do you mean - Disney retconned old Star Wars content into Legends because they could, and Dave Filoni is trying his best to make it relevant into current stuff.
@@TheGamingSpartanA113 he did that shit way before disney
If you really, really wanted to show Morgan as having dabbled in Starfighter design to get herself noticed, why not the Tie Phantom as a fun little nod?
The look and the cloaking abilities of the Phantom coming from a Nightsister is a cool twist to the design and kinda fits in an unexpected way, at least compared to the straight-forward design philosophy of the Defender, and whether or not the Empire actually built them (or Disney put them into something) the originality and ambition of the project would get Thrawn's attention regardless without stepping on the established canon or fans' sentiments.
i loved Rebel Assault 2 when i was younger
that would be ... actually an interesting implication that she was involved in creating the cloaking device somehow. and it goes back to thrawn actually using cloaking devices with Joruus Cboath. Maybe cloaking devices require a force user to make them, similar to creating a lightsaber. that would be moderately interesting.
Disney: Let's just retcon Admiral Zaarin and the entire TIE Fighter game out of existence because we can't bothered to spend fifteen seconds on Wookiepedia looking something up.
I’m surprised you didn’t mention the mountain clan because that to me was the biggest revelation. We’ve never seen a light side group as an opposite of the witches on dathomir and I feel like that gave us a ton of new potential
Tell me you haven't read the EU without saying you haven't read the EU.
@@josh113866 LOLYEP. Though TBH I'm hoping they leave out some of the more obnoxious 90s white magic vs. Black magic valley girl wicca stuff that felt pretty heavy handed in old Dathomir.
@@josh113866bro there's hundreds of books and unless it was in one of the bigger series no one has the money to read every single thing anymore
Morgan Elsbeth is an interesting character, but I think we really needed an extra episode to show how she went from Dathomir to being the Magistrate on Corvus.
How does someone go from being the survivor of a massacre, to an industrial leader? I want to see that!
There’s no need to re-read the canon Thrawn novels to see Pellaeon and Thrawn’s relationship: it plain doesn’t exist. Pellaeon does not show up until Thrawn: Treason (the third book of the series, placed during Thrawn’s brief absence before the final episodes of Rebels Season 4). Pellaeon is the newest Star Destroyer captain in Grand Admiral Savit’s Third Fleet, and therefore is the one Thrawn and Commodore Faro are able to convince most easily of Savit’s treason during the confrontation between the Chimaera and the Third Fleet. Following Savit’s defeat, Pellaeon and the Harbinger are attached to the Seventh Fleet (at least temporarily) so that they can deal with Governor Pryce’s complete bungling of Thrawn’s plans on Lothal. And Thrawn returns just in time to have his fleet destroyed by deus-ex-space-whales.
That’s it. That’s the extent of the canon connections between Thrawn and Pellaeon prior to the former’s defeat by Ezra Bridger.
Which is what makes this whole thing so annoying to me. If they wanted Pellaeon to have a connection to Thrawn, why not let Timothy Zahn at least hint at it at some point? Alternatively, SINCE the timeline that’s been established doesn’t support Pellaeon working for Thrawn prior to, basically, a few days before the events of the Rebels series finale, why not use Eli Vanto instead and let him have a moment to shine in what was really little more than a cameo appearance.
Oh well …
Filloni does not know who eli vanto is
@@jobt1999 Yeah, well, Dave can crack open a book that wasn’t written in the 1990s then …
I doubt she designed it herself and I doubt that's the final design.
Exactly, Thrawn said it wasn’t cost effective so I’m sure he tried to improve the design so it would be better received by the Empire.
@@collecter343 That or since Palpatine doesn't actually give a shit about money just sell it as some shiny new toy that might interest him.
I like the interpretation that Morgan may or may not had come up with the base idea and improvements of the tie defender but most of the designs are probably made from the people she’s subjugated. This imo ties much better with her “ruthless industrialist” vibe she has going on.
Otherwise, I really liked Tales of the Empire. I love the Tales’ series stronger focus on slower more emotional stories as each episode represents a snapshot in a character’s life that gives you a better understanding of how that character thinks and what makes them tick. Personally really loved Barriss’ story, especially the last episode.
so... shes from a planet of force users who dont really use technology, but rely on the magic and natural bonds with the force.
How does that translate into understanding how to design weapons systems?
Is she using the force to come up with a way to create a new engine that is ultra efficient and works in unexpected and surprising ways? what is her contribution Exactly?
@@aurorauplinks I don’t see why she should. She was cut off from most of her powers and her tribe, so she just respec’d for lack of a better term. After the massacre in 20 bby she decided to do something completely different with her life and by the time of 9 bby she got a magistrate job and one concept project to show for it. I dont see how this implies that she was some tech genius or smth.
Keep in mind that unlike the jedi (and maul), the nightsisters weren’t really actively hunted. So, the few nightsister survivors we have in cannon ended up doing wildly different things that didn’t necessarily require them to lay low. This means they had more freedom to do whatever they wanted, so Morgan spending 11 years on an industrial start-up isn’t that far fetched imo.
@@vthesnail wait please explain to me how she lost her powers? in the EU the nightsisters were force users, of the darkside but force users and capable of sith alchemy or some variation of it. how did she get cut off from her powers? I honestly don't know what happened to as Dathomir fell.
@@aurorauplinks The lore on how nightsister magick works is currently very wishy-washy so I'll give you the best explanation the way I understand it.
In cannon its still implied that nightsisters are force-sensitive, though they arent really trained to use the force in a traditional way. Instead they preform "magicks" that draw upon the lifeforce of the world around them in the form of "ichor" (the green flame stuff they constantly use). While there isnt much lore on this, the implication is that what the nightsisters use is basically dark side sorcery that is really powerful, but also very specific and hard to cast, requiring many prerequisites, ingredients and knowledge to do so.
In the first episode of Tales of the Empire, the symbols on Morgan's face fade away after the massacre and upon seeing this, the matriarch of the mountain clan (cannon version of the light side witches) states that the "nightsister's power is gone with them". She later regains both her powers again and the blade of talzin in the final episdoe of Ahsoka after the great mothers grant them to her.
This is weird, since characters like Talzin, Merrin and Shelish kept their powers and continued to use them after the massacre. The only possible in-universe explanation for this inconsistency is that perhaps strong and gifted nighsisters that are prolific users of magicks keep their connection while less powerful ones like Morgan don't.
Another possible theory is that the sheer trauma of the event closed her off from the force in the same way a lot of jedi post order 66 were.
@@vthesnail my guess is simpler. the power ful ones had runes in place that actually limited the lesser ones so they could control them and keep them from betraying them. the runes disappearing may have been a misunderstanding.
A space witch designing a top of the line starfighter makes about as much sense as a late 20th century genetic super soldier being able to design a 23rd century Federation dreadnought. Bottom line, Hollywood writers today are creatively inept.
I kind of want a movie with both actors now running a super corporation designing starships together loool
Mate, I am sorry, but you are pointing the fingers in the wrong direction. The writers are not to blame and I really wish you would do some research before you start boasting BS like this.
@@christopherpoet458 Really? So if the writers didn't write the script, then who did? Must've been magic. Unless you're suggesting that the producers are solely responsible for the quality of written material and the writers are there to just translate their 'brilliance' into scripts. Look fella, I get that producers and studio people ultimately have a lot of say and are the ones to say 'yay' or 'nay', but they are not responsible for the nitty-gritty plot -holes- points and extraneous detail that I'm describing. That falls squarely on the shoulders of the writing staff and their 'creation-by-committee' approach to screenwriting.
@@SJReid82 Right, first thing first, if you are going to be an insufferable prick because you don't like being called out for "blaming" a single party for the mistakes of one thing or another, I will equally treat this as an invitation to be a complete and utter piece of shit towards you. So if you want this to turn into a pissing match of insults and bashing, you can continue to be an absolute prick. Otherwise, clean that bloody attitude up and act like a damn adult.
Second, I am not jabbing at you for the lack of knowledge and if you took it as an insult, I apologize that is not the intent. On the flip side, you are behaving no different than I did to a group of people you have never met (and more specifically one man) and the motive of my comment is as someone who has both worked as a screenwriter and second, knows a lot more about what happens under the hood regarding the script. I share a profession with these people and I am not going to sit here and watch someone shit talk a profession on the assumptions that are made with no credibility.
So yes, I am going to defend them.
And in this case, the man you are taking jabs at is Charles Murray - who notably wrote the entire arch of Ashoka being framed and leaving the Jedi order. Episodes of the series that are highly regarded as being some of the BEST work done in the Clone Wars. He also wrote two episodes of Rebels ("Path of the Jedi" and "Rebel Resolve"). Which also are well known to be fairly good episodes of the series. And to further point out the success this man has made as a writer, he is the writer behind "The Devil You Know". To which I am going to highlight that the only criticism that show gets is on its technical production, not the writing.
So in terms of the specific show we are currently talking about and the writer who wrote the scripts, there is no lack of talent by a stretch. I am willing to bet he as been writing longer than you have been breathing and you got the absolute nerve to shit post a man who has a rather successful track record as a writer and act like you know better than him?
It is okay to not like Tales of the Empire or how they were written. It is fine if you do not personally find the show appealing. It is not okay to turn around and be an absolute cunt to someone you have never met and shit talk them because you do not like that material. Material that on its own is not a strong basis of judgement to begin with considering the Short Film structure these episodes have.
So yes, I will absolutely jump in the comments section and call you the fuck out on your pathetic attitude and how you just talked about that man under the given circumstances. Especially when he as a fuck tone more creditability to his skills than you have.
And second, assuming you clean your bloody attitude up, I am willing to elaborate on what I know regarding more general practices of screenwriting in the industry if you are open to a more pleasant exchange going forward. I am going to point out that I am not saying the writing in the industry isn't flawed. I personally do not think these episodes were Charles Murray's best works, but knowing that I do know and knowing just how hard it is to write a Short Film let alone one along the lines of what we got, I can respect the man tried his best here even if it was not grate. And if you look into what this man has done in the past, it should be noted his strengths in his writing were on display even in these episodes. Aside from Charles Murray specifically and on a general note, there are issues in the industry with writing and I am going to stress and point out that the major problems in the industry more often than not are not the faults of the writers.
Now, can we have a more civilized conversation or are you just here to shit post?
@@christopherpoet458🤓🤓🤓
Re: Thrawn in Tales of the Empire; it's kinda telling that in Thrawn's scene he personally delivers the most honest and straightforward critique of the Empire that we've seen so far, and as an Imperial officer no less. Just one scene goes to display at least his utilitarian pragmatism, and I guess we'll see in coming installations whether he goes full villain by embracing the system without major institutional change or whether he goes failed reformer turned villain like Napoleon.
Asking for consistent lore from these writers feels like a bit much at this point...
agree. disney rewrites canon almost everyday... it's like a sick perversion 🤷♂
@@Maddog-xc2zv Disney doesn't write this stuff
You should have seen this coming since TCW.
They were already butchering the books and comics, but now even things like rebels can be overwritten. Really, maked you think if even the classics are sacret enough for them...
@@CommunityFan No, it's Santa
I think the idea of some backwater witch becoming what’s essentially a leading engineer at Skunk Works is ridiculous.
Is she really the lead engineer or just the spokesperson?
Well a moisture farmer in the original trilogy becomes the saviour of the galaxy. It's hardly the first or second time characters end up having quite unique lives
@@wearsjorge55 That “moisture farmer” was the son of the chosen one, and was purposefully placed there in hiding. Morgan is just some Nightsister.
@Wasattsi let's use an example from the real world. There's plenty of people from "backwater" places that succeed and have completely different lives. It's not a stretch for Morgan to become involved in the empire, it's just weird seeing her in bloody everything
They didn't tell us HOW Morgan came to the empire or became the magistrate. This was lazy writing.
Sev'Rance Tann is heavily underrated, btw
Why is nobody talking about the rank planket of "Admiral Thrawn"? I though Admirals had 6 Red above 6 blue squares? As seen with Admiral Piett, Admiral Ozzel and Admiral Pellaeon in all the illustrations? Why has Thrawn got only blue squares? Can someone explain this to me?
Or morgan hired someone to design the tie defender.
Rip Admiral Zaarin
Look, if I designed a starfighter and was pitching it to the board, I’d send a force user who could use mind tricks. But she even failed to do that!
The Inquisitors want to know your location.
The New Republic ambassador was a former citizen of the village on Corvus. She can be seen in Episode 2 with Wing. Over the course of Episode 3, the dialogue makes it clear that it was her initiative to attempt to bring the planet Corvus, and the surrounding system, into the New Republic.
I didn't mind Morgan Elsbeth being the designer of the TIE Defender as it sort of provides a link to her designing the inter-galactic hyperspace ring. This makes some sense also as the Nightsisters had a unique relationship with "crude matter" (performing something like Force artifice) so she could have had some training in that area. The problem is her episodes in Tales of the Empire were so bare bones and spread out that any potentially interesting threads like these couldn't be explored and fleshed out.
Yes, I want to see Morgan Elsbeth go to an engineering school and get into fights with her materials science professor over how the latter is so lacking in vision but can't easily prove them wrong because she can't use the Nightsister magics to refine materials, feeding the festering sense of utter loss.
id actually be interested in her early story escaping the destruction of night sisters and finding a way to go to a school to gain knowledge and power about worlds she doesnt really under stand yet, and show her growing and developing, that would be interesting.
It does feel like they skipped a lot. That’s the part that is a little weird with her episodes. And was a problem I honestly had with Tales of the Jedi too.
@@intergalactic92 I think the problem is the story writer's don't realize how interesting the development parts of a story can be. It's all about budget, presentation, and giving amazing world building while characters learn morality tales whether they are good or bad.
I think that Generation Tech put it well when he said that it probably wasn't Morgan Elsbeth herself but rather team she had in her employ. Also I think that him explaining how people naturally tend towards that kind of industrial focus made sense under circumstances like her's. Not that I'm here just to echo whatever he says, but I agree with him.
Steve Jobs never invented the iPhone personally, so I find it unlikely that Morgan made it herself and she’s just more of the director who sells people on the product. It also doesn’t feel out of character for Thrawn to find other things people use and improve them, since in the canon novels he’s shown taking old Clone Wars tech and using them in unique ways like the beckon call Buzz Droids as an extraction tool.
well rebels made the same thing. The B wing was built by a lone mechanic on a backwater planet, in the show. In the old lore it was a big prodjekt with lots of resoures, wich made it expensive, and thats why ther werent that many deployed djuring the war. But yeah , Feloni giveth and feloni taketh.
to be fair I can see that still working. Starts out as a project by a lone backwater engineer. When it's taken back to the rebels a big project is undertaken to produce more with lots of resources that make it expensive and that's why there weren't many of them during the war
I personally got the impression that Elspeth really just led the team who were behind the prototype design. She had to have been in a role which A) Required her to make that presentation to the Moffs, and B) Allowed Thrawn or anyone else to remove her from that position. So it wasn’t the most prestigious position she could be put in - it probably included a lot of vulnerability and accountability. But she took it on, most likely to effectively be a spokesperson for the designers and people who would commission the TIE Defender factory, *because* it would have then brought the factory to Corvus - which lines up with her motivations, in TotE
My main issue with the Elsbeth episodes is that we were given no indication whatsoever that she even had the capability to build something like the TIE Defender. I doubt you could get a STEM degree on a planet so primitive, that in another universe, it would be off-limits due to the Prime Directive. The Danthomiri are practically Dark Side Ewoks -- they're not designing *anything*.
They could have solved that problem with maybe a couple lines of dialogue -- something like having one of the snotty Imperials say "oh that Corillian industralist took her in and now she thinks she can propose projects for us?" Just *something* to indicate she might have had some sort of background/education in engineering.
same issue. its all about background, not about anything else . I believe someone like Admiral Daala (a woman) could design a starfighter creation program. but not a night sister.
Her Eye of Sion says hello
Not only does she design high-end star fighters, the star fighters belonging to her minions in Ahsoka are garbage.
Well, If Paelleon is under thrawn here, this would imply that this is some point after Thrawn: Treason. [Or before, since Thrawn has his Tie Defenders in the book by that point]
Or Filoni doesn't care about Zahn's books
Considering that the New Republic Rep asked for Morgan to give up control of the “systems” under her control. I could totally see Morgan having more expansive facilities on Corvus and the surrounding regions under her control, perhaps an orbital shipyard, starfighter production facility, or even maybe a fuel refinery (considering that’s a precious resource among Imperial Remnant factions). Also watching the style of Morgan’s shuttle, fighters, and even the Eye of Scion, all include a art deco futuristic esthetic. This to me is sort of a combination of Imperial, Chiss, Night Sister, and maybe even Eternal Empire/Fleet elements (maybe canons equivalent to the Katana fleet will be a still intact part of the Eternal Fleet lol). Clearly though she’s producing unique hybrid technology ships on the behalf of Thrawn somewhere, maybe in her area of control, maybe in the Empire of the Hand, or maybe hidden in plain sight as seen on Santhe Shipyards on Corellia. Let me know what you all think.
ok im going to say it. why would the republic ask ANYONE to give up their personal property? thats not what the republic ever did. they would have asked her to join and take contracts for the republic. they were capitalists, not fascists, not communists, not dictators. They believed in democracy and paying for what you use.
@@aurorauplinks also by asking in the first place it implies that they were aware that she was a weapons manufacturer, who was loyal to the empire. Why would they expect her to go along with any of that willingly?
@@lacelessshoes2413true. And they were also decommissioning weapons in general as they were against any type of warfare. But sending so few people without proper armament to do such a thing is even dumber than imperial hubrus. But this is a whole different issue.
@@Makocat the more I rewatch that episode I feel like the delegation was the personal mission of that former Corvus citizen. She wanted it, and she was going to go around the security and diplomatic procedures to do so, which is why she ultimately perished along with her small detail of troopers.
@@aurorauplinks The counter point possibility is that Morgan may be considered a "War Criminal". The NR did not make a show of force much post the fall of the Empire and heavily de-militarized. The mentality was that they didn't want to evoke the same fear the Empire did and cause the same issues. That said, the delegation could have also been a personal objective and not an assigned objective. To which I think her thinking is that if she brought Morgan in, the NR would be open to her request to Anax the system and put it under NR protection. Which was probably a doomed line of thought anyway despite good intentions.
That said, I am willing to bet no matter what path was taken, Morgan is a known War Criminal and the NR figured that sense the Empire was gone and there was no claim on the system from a warlord that Morgan would not have the means to oppose the NR. To which they would find out by the end of this episode that line of thinking was heavily flawed.
People need to understand the NR is not perfect or even "good". They may have fought the Empire but their political system is as broken and disjointed with favoritism as the Empire was. The only difference is the NR did not use its military industry as a way to flex power down and opres people. Instead, they just turn their focus to the member worlds who benefit the NR. Which, to be fair, does have merit logically speaking. But the fact is that the NR did not have the capacity to "respond" to the situation.
It felt like it was supposed to be implied that she was just the head and representative of a ship guild operating on that planet who convinced them to make a big play for an important government contract. Although the relationship she had with that place was a bit confusing outside of her being like the evil governor archetype. Seemed like we should have gotten a bit more of that story.
I actually really liked the first episode of her set but I didn't feel like the theme of her failing to learn from tragedy, or I guess learning the wrong lessons, established in the first one carried through in an interesting way.
I feel like the Morgan episodes were separate chapters taken from a full book (sort of like the last Ahsoka episode), there's details to her character arc that are still missing that could have been filled with more episodes
you should do a who would win scenario of a at-at vs. about 10 m1 Abrams tanks and a couple of a-10 warthogs and apache helicopters
"So, what if we took a TIE fighter and made it... better?"
"Morgan, you're a genius!"
Stop it. Characters don't need archs anymore. The paradigm of plot necessity rules!
Kneel before the mighty Plot!!😂
Personally I think if they had to have Morgan design star-fighters they should've had her design the TIE Brute, like the defender it addresses a flaw in the Imperial Navy, it existed earlier in the time line and it would still work as a reason for Morgan to come to Thrawn's attention. You could also have Pelleaon say that who he represents has ideas for another starfighter and suggest that Morgan worked on the Defender.
To be fair, she designed a massive hyperspace ring to travel to another galaxy. Designing the TIE Defender seems like child's play in comparison.
For Thrawn, it makes sense that he is an Admiral, he will need to be promoted to Fleet Admiral before he can promote to the six star rank of Grand Admiral.
It could be a situation where Elspeth isn’t the engineer that came up with the technical specifications of the tie defender but rather she and Thrawn both saw the obvious flaw in the Empires military doctrine of having bad equipment and swarm tactics which will lead to an ineffective military and she had an engineer design said ship for her. Thrawn mentions there are flaws with her design in the efficiency and cost of manufacturing so maybe once she enters his service they keep working on the ship? Or maybe she went to engineering school for 8 years offscreen, who knows?
If they really wanted us to care about Morgan, they shouldn't have killed her 5 minutes after her introduction.
They didn't?
if they wanted us to care they needed to introduce some nuance to the character. Instead we are shown that she's always been there exact same character.
@@CommunityFan They killed her off shortly after her introduction.
@@darthvaderdylanI agree, and thats the problem isn’t it with a lot of Star Wars content it’s just the same person all throughout the content they’re in. We thought Mando was going to change after season 2 and he’s the still the same person he was at the start of season 1. The production team is too busy filling stories with Easter eggs and fun nods to want to actually develop characters lol.
@@CommunityFanI think her amount of screen time in Ahsoka is 5 minutes.
"This feels pretty dumb" just about sums up modern day star wars quite well.
Morgan going from being one of the last surviving night sisters to I dustrialist and tie fighter designer isn't a huge deal. A moisture farmer ends up becoming the saviour of the galaxy in the original trilogy
I think the big issue is that they focused on Morgan when Thrawn would have been a much better focus. We could have seen Eli in ep one, Morgan in ep 2, and Vader in ep 3. Not gonna lie, I had to google who Morgan was because she was so forgettable in my opinion that I forgot what her name was.
Morgan said she didn’t design the Tie in the episode. She only has enough connections to get the Empire’s attention.
A victory star destroyer? 😂
I was the same lol , I listen to these instead of watching and as soon as I heard it I was like “ YUUUUUUH ITS REWIND TIME “
I'm pretty sure those aren't victory classes but what do I know
@@cassgaming2383 yeah venator
@GunsAndAmmo3 Yeah ik, the venators are my favorite carrier/ star destroyer class ships in the star wars universe
At first I thought he was referring to either the Imp 1 or the Venators as Victory, but I realized he was saying "we've never seen a Victory used this late" right after correctly saying both ISD & Venator like a second before. That would be contradicted if he were mistakenly saying Victory in place of Venator, since we literally just saw the same thing in the finale of Bad Batch less than a week prior, and we know he watched Bad Batch.
I think he was trying to make a separate point about never seeing the Victory class in any form of visual media and basically leapfrogging it in favor of the ISD1 in the extremely recent canon stories. It just came out poorly, blame his two kids and sleep depravation. I dunno.
She must have designed the hyperspace ring from Ahsoka and most of us assumed she was just assembling an imperial design.
2:20
There are Victory Star Destroyers escorting Vader's ship in the 2015 run which takes place after Episode 4
Awesome video!
For the greater part of watching Asohka show, I never really understood, why did she join the empire, if the empire destroyed dathomir and her people? And why doesn't she have the ash skin like other night sisters?
I get the idea the Elsbeth episodes were supposed to be Thrawn episodes that got replaced late in production because they decided to do the Thrawn story somewhere else (Ahsoka season 2 is my guess). The Elsbeth episodes therefore needed to cover some of the Thrawn material they needed to cover ahead of Thrawn's next mention, with a less fleshed out story than what we got in the other half of the series.
The Bariss episodes were much better; more coherent and telling a more complete story, like they went from plan to end product without any last minute rewrites.
Rip victory class star destroyer.
While the episode doesn't outright say that she personally designed the new ship, it does show that she has some level of engineering when Pelion discusses some of the changes made to over the standard model since she was also the architect for the hyperspace ring used to bring back the Chimera. The people of Corvis likely had a hand it's design and expecting to be more than just laborers in factories (considering how they took to the idea of their planet being mined and forced to work in them) since we know work conditions on Lothal where less than ideal for the TIE Defender plant.
The TIE Defender was also something that was doomed to fail from the start. The meeting she has at the beginning of EP 2 is the prohibitive cost to make one. A standard TIE is cheap to make and expendable pilots. And with the Tarkin Doctrine, any that would of made it to production before being shut down would of likely been assigned to duties unbefitting of a high class fighter. Either being assigned to guard a remote instillation or the personal TIE of a high ranking pilot or officer in lieu of TIE Interceptor.
Yes right below lothal , the nsme came up , he was serving in s different fleet under another grand admiral
I feel like we’re underestimating just how much people can learn in a futuristic society. Anakin, a literal slave, was designing droids and pod racers at the age of 9. If the Chosen One can be so proficient as a slave child, surely Morgan Elsbeth can achieve similar heights as a free adult.
Honestly they should have just had the entire thing being Grievous killing nightsisters and just having a great time hunting down the survivors as they try to flee. If anyone needs a series to make them seem dangerous and to save their character it is him.
6:43 I think you missed something in the conversation in that episode. The people of the planet apparently REQUESTED the New Republic intervene for them. The New Republic didn't decide on their own to annex the planet.
The envoy says they came to petition the planet to join the New Republic. The people of the planet didn’t even know the Empire had been defeated, so how could they have requested its successor to intervene on their behalf?
@@Baconator984 No, she says she BROUGHT a petition TO the new republic. The envoy was apparently formerly a citizen of the planet, because the former governor tells her that she shouldn't have returned. When talking to Morgan, she even says "it's what the people want". Go back and watch that segment again, and listen closer to the dialog.
@@mattelder1971 paying attention is tough, there wasn't a game of subway runner playing on the bottom half of the episodes :(
@@mattelder1971 Regardless, as the planet it isn’t yet a member of the New Republic, as their membership was reliant on Morgan relinquishing control, the envoy had no authority to attempt arresting her like they did, on a world she controls, regardless of her “well-known” crimes. They can ask Morgan to turn herself in, sure, but when she inevitably refused, threatening to forcefully depose her in the name of the New Republic only gave her legal reason to have the envoy killed, as such an action could be (and likely was) viewed as a hostile act meant to threaten an independent planet’s sovereignty.
@@Baconator984 wait wait wait... legal reason to have the envoy killed? no see if she controlled the planet she wrote the laws. she can have anyone killed for anyreason. if no one stops her at least.
Which goes to the new republic. if the people ask the new republic to free them from a dictator, the new republic would have sent a warship, not a diplomat alone. they may have sent a flotilla bringing in an invasion force and a jedi or two if they had any
Maul needs one of these, I want to see how he gets his spider legs
The title was klickbaity, you just pointed some stuff you didn't like, you clearly didn't think the entire thing was dumb
Vehicle design is a team effort, however typically only the chief designer or project director gets credit. That's likely the case with Morgan.
“This feels pretty dumb”
Star Wars Disney canon in a nutshell :P
The title of this video sums up my thoughts on Disney Star Wars, I’m glad to see you’re willing to criticize them, I unfollowed this channel after you said you wouldn’t say negative things about Disney Star Wars.
Would have made more sense to say that Morgan designed the tie interceptor which thrawn then improved upon to make the tie defender.
Books only exist for Dave Filoni to overwrite.
Why did Morgan lose the chalk white skin after the night sisters died but characters like ventress and the one from fallen order not. I thought there race just had that skin?
she transformed into a human for convenience.
Which... goes back to the question of why make the nightsisters aliens to begin with :s
Well I learned one new thing from this video: Ruhk is a Noghri. Those are the guys with the poison gas rifles that you slaughter in Jedi Academy.
Side note, I always chuckle at Luke's post-mission dialogue: "the remaining Nohri have been rounded up and returned home" like they're rowdy teenagers at a party.
@@stuart00knight that’s the spirit
Vanto was already with the Chiss at that time if I remember right
I thought going from a witch on a backwater world to a master shipwright on a different backwater world was quite the leap. Nothing about the first episode implied she was an engineer. I was so confused I initially thought that she was a separate character at the beginning of the second episode during the TIE defender presentation. If anything the first episode painted her as a rash and headstrong character that lacked the capacity to anticipate the consequences of her actions. Suddenly in episode two she is cunning and very future minded. This wouldn’t be unreasonable character development (given the events of episode 1) but for it to take place entirely off screen makes the plot confusing and come off as lazy.
That is the Trade Federation GAT fighter tank from the 2002 Clone Wars video game in the intro!!! What's the name of the mod, and where can I download it!?!
This is before he becomes a grand Admiral and before the fight with another grand Admiral. In the battle of the Lafar
No offense Eck, but do you also think that Steve Jobs designed and engineered the iPhone? You said it yourself she’s an industrialist. In cannon she had managed to take control of several star systems and made them part of her corporation. She is like the CEO of the company, she has teams of engineers and droids at her disposal.
She was shown to be very intelligent. Secondly, under her direct oversight was the one of largest hyper space ring created.
I felt Morgan's story could have been an entire 8+ episode season in of itself. Or mini-series, or something. What we got was the CliffsNotes version. And it was interesting. Just WAY to quick to follow her fall to what we saw in the Mandalorian. Nothing on how she came to run that town/planet... They stated a few things, but we really need to SEE how that relationship started and devolved over time. Same for her emotional state over the whole story...
Hell, you could make possibly make a multiple season series if you stated with her file an Dathomir before Grievous slaughters everything she loves. Season 1 give 1 episode of her childhood, then goes through the battle and the aftermath, her accepting that her life will never be the same, and leaving Dathomir at the end. Season 2 involves how came to Corvus, getting involved there and rising to be their leader. Working with them to build something and developing the idea/basic plans for the TIE Defender. A work project to help build the planet. Season ends with her proposal getting shot down, but coming to Pallaeon's attention, and teases Thrawn. Season 3 deals with what happens on Corvus during the Rebellion era, working with/under Thrawn, and the fall of the Empire destroying everything she's built. Leading to her ultimate fall and oppressions of Corvus that we see in the Mandalorian.
What we got was interesting, but WAY to quick.
Oh, and there was nothing about how she acquired the beskar spear. There has to be a story behind that.
'Hello there.'
Morgan and Thrawn look so much better in animation and it makes me realise that all the Star Wars shows should be animated because the live action ones look truly aweful by comparrison, it would also give the creators more time to think about their scripts and maybe put less shit into production since each project would be a big commitment.
Factions compared idea sci fi insect swarm. Such as Tyranids, arachnids, Zerg, rachni, terminids.
What is that star Wars game called where u can simulate ship battles
Only like 2 tales what the hell.
I know they only had 3 shorts to work within, but they still ended up feeling hollow and paint by numbers. Barriss barely felt lost before she redeemed herself, a tonal shift from the woman she was when she staged her attack on the Temple. And I felt no emotional resonance from the other story, it was just the bare minimum of story beats to get her to where we'd seen her before.
I've been waiting to see a Victory class ship since The Mandalorian.
Viewers: man UA-cam recs is lame
Star Wars Content: *Hello There!!!!*
Morgan designing the tie defender kinda makes sense for the giant hyperspace ring in Ashoka- but still kinda eh.
Its just like everything else from Disney, it felt rushed and very little back story...... there's so much potential in these animated series...🤬🤬🤬
yea im not very impressed by the new republic portrayal in any of the sequels so far. its a complete betrayal of the ideology of the republic old and new alike in the EU and original films
Neither Thrawn nor Elsbeth came up with the designs, their staff did...
Industrialists hold capital, not do research.
#askeck Hey, what do you think happened to the rest of Delta Squad in Canon? Do you think they joined the Empire like Scorch, or defected like The Bad Batch and Commander Cody?
So, hang on: Did Morgan Elsbeth actually design the TIE Defender? Because I was under the impression that she was more marketing the TIE Defender than having actually created it; maybe I read the scene wrong?
Alternatively, recall that in Rebels, we see that the TIE Defender improves, from the initial one that pursued Mon Mothma, to the Elite Defender we see later on Lothal (fun fact: all of the Elite's improvements were suggested by Darth Vader in Thrawn: Alliances). It's quite likely that Morgan designed the very *first* Defender model, which could have been totally mediocre. If anything, that suggests to me that the consistent bias against the Defender Project we've seen in both Rebels and the Canon Thrawn books stems from the piss poor first impressions of Morgan Elsbeth's initial garbage starfighter blueprints.
Lmao