new totes are reusable, your maths applies to a 1 time purchase. additional maths to consider, is extra trips, for every 4 baskets you will be hauling a 5th now, it might be only a few mins, but its time and by your math time is indeed money. though loose stacking certainly is the way to go here.
What a coincidence that youtube recommends me a video of someone from the states using "Made In Finland" product lol. Does it have many plastic parts, or do they still make everything here either from metal or wood? :D
I believe your labor vs. tote calc is off on the dollars because you will use the totes again and again for the original $400 You will have to stack again and again and again at a cost of 11 hours each time you stack the wood (based on the 50 tote example). So, for the first time you use the totes, $36.36/hour is the result, but the value of the tote increases each time you don't stack in it after that, so over time that tote will come down significantly in "hourly price" TBH - never understood why you were stacking in the totes to begin with. Loose piling with the totes is probably the most efficient drying you will get. Lots of small piles held a little bit off the ground- way to go! And as you noted, they are just going to get dumped into a trailer for delivery anyway. Love the channel Good luck!
Right. If one supposes the lifetime of a tote is 15 years, (15 seasons) - the annual cost of the 8 totes is $26.66. So then at 11 hours of labor, you'd be at $2.42/hr for stacking.
I came here to say this too. One time fixed cost - or at least until the things break and they are durable. Also he can churn out a lot more totes so if demand is ever higher than his output capacity with stacking, he's coming ahead there too. Not to mention the savings on your back!
Also don’t cut out the side of future totes. They will hold a little more and not drop wood out when transporting as easily. (Plus another time saver not having to cut totes.😂)
The economics on not stacking are even better because the totes aren’t single use. They last for years… thus you save the time annually and don’t incur the cost annually. 😎. Nice operation! I like that swinging conveyor. Now you just need a second tractor so you never need to unhook the PTO 😆.
Use the digger to move the full totes out of the way and replace with empty ones. At the end of the day unhook PTO and move the totes to the drying area. Do it once and no extra tractor required.
It would be interesting to do a moisture comparison. If you stack one and loose fill one to see if the loose fill one would dry faster because it has better air flow. If it does dry faster, that also lessens the turn around time providing that you have the sales for it. That's my 2 cents. 🧐
@@SimonWoodburyForget Where you got that idea? More end grain surface area visible for to sun to shine? Maybe that is the case but if you make it 3 rows stacked middle one gets barely any sunlight. When loose filled sun gets to center as well. Also turbulent airflow tends to pick up more moisture and heat from the surface than laminar flow of air. I do have time to stack but not enough energy to do so. Only ones that i stack are 1meter long ones witch two stacks can be put into one EUR pallet with its added 3 board strips and after drying those are cut into 30/70 peaces for our fireplace sizes. From what i have seen both are about fast to dry so i would not bother for stacking for next winters firewood. Only for extended storage.
Loose fill and stacking ratio is dependant on the container properties and the log size. In perfect model you would have no walls - a very large pile is close enough and in this case the ratio is about 0.7 to 1. In the tote packing the stacked way it appears to leave big gaps in the sides. This really depends on the log length. For drying purposes in the tote the loose way could be better but it is well known that in a large loose pile it dries slower and there is risk of mould developing in the inside.
Adam, I like the way you show us as you learn rather than figuring it out and then presenting the result. Makes for more interesting videos and is more inspirational. Thanks!
In Finland we have formulae between stacked and a thrown pile. 1m3 of thrown wood is 0.6 m3 stacked wood. And 1m3 of stacked wood equals 1.67 throw pile. Japa is a good machine! I have one from 2013. Made in Finland!
I make firewood for my own use. We have been heating with wood for over 40 years now. I've never had so much wood on hand that I didn't want to keep just in case. So when I watch the guys that sell it stacking it all neatly, I think I'm glad I don't have to do that! I've been using old trailers (anything that will roll, with or without tires that hold air) hay wagons and IBC tote cages for years now to save labor. I don't have to measure other than to say I've got so many trailers, wagons and bins full. I have no idea how many cords of wood I burn in a winter. I don't even care as long as the wood lasts longer than the winter. Since going to this method we save about 80% of the work of firewood. No way I would stack a tote if I didn't have to! I have a half dozen or so trailers, 3 hay wagons and over 50 totes currently. I'm happy if they are all full in the fall and last for heating the house, shop and cooking maple syrup. I burn only dead and down wood so the dry time is much less. I see more wasted firewood on UA-cam! A little rot will dry out and burn fine. But now I'm just ranting!
I like the way you analyze things. As a businessman, it is wise to be this way, but our time is out most previous commodity. We have a finite supply of that so anything done in processing wood that saves time makes sense usually, in my opinion.
As a numbers guy, I really appreciate your analyses of cost and effort in the things you do. Also love the timber frame firewood stand. It's a gorgeous structure, and your mom's painting is beautiful.
Nice to hear that there are still neighbors that are trust worthy helping themselves and leaving payments unattended . Where i live in they will take the money box and firewood away free .
Two suggestions. 1. If you’re sticking with the no stack method then you don’t necessarily need to cut the opening in the totes if you’re just going to empty them into your trailer for delivery. Without the opening they should be able to fit a little more wood into them. 2. Instead of cutting the lids like shallow trays you could make them deeper to hold more sawdust and wood chips and just recess them into the ground a little.
Not cutting the totes also allows you to stack them. My firewood guy does this despite having plenty of space available. According to him the upper ones dry much better because they catch more wind.
Stacking is fine if you have nothing better to do and of course a much smaller volume. Working with wood is a lot of work anyways. It's mostly about looks comparing stacked vs piled freely.
After watching you, Out Doors with the Morgans and Back 40 Firewood channels, I have always wondered why you stack the totes. Now you have answered my question and probably that of other watchers. Thanks. Stay safe.
One thing you failed to mention is that if you're stacking you have to keep stopping cutting logs and go over to the tote and stacking then repeat vs. Just being able to keep cutting logs.
More firewood goes through the processor in a year, and that in turn lowers the depreciation cost per cord. Lowering your costs allows you to produce more with the same overall labor cost. But as you increase the supply, more of your time will go to marketing and delivery.
Also, just as others have pointed out that the 8 extra IBC totes are reused, thus amortizing their cost, the 11 hours of stacking time is also available repeatedly! So we’re talking about a huge opportunity cost of stacking. Each set of those 11 hours can be used for production further amortizing the extra cost of the totes. Assuming you have the demand for your product, this is a highly profitable virtuous circle. Good video!
What a fantastic setup to begin with, and completely agree with going with the non-stacked approach based on your analysis, and especially given the amount of totes you already have in your operation. The time savings will be amazing as it compounds and totes re-used. I think I'd also put some sort of markers down on the ground where the three totes go so you don't have to even think about it when replacing them with empties.
My thought Adam, If you are going to drop the wood in loose, I would not cut out part of the basket. I would cut that piece out to the bottom and find a way to hinge it so you could let it open as a gate when you dump into the trailer.
Adam, you could easily make another section for your log deck and save having to cut them in half. I made one that is 10' wide for my buddy's Blackscreek processor and it was pretty easy. I think your next consideration is a skid mounted stand alone power pack for the processor. Either direct drive or could even convert it to full hydraulic drive. Much easier than having to switch your tractor around. FYI, I use conveyors off my processor and pile the splits in tall piles. I'm in a windy location so never have mold issues. I hand load onto a conveyor which dumps into my dump trailer or flat bed. This means clean splits and very little bark to the client. Totes are expensive here now and too much handling for me.
You seem to have a good system going! I produce hundreds of cords a season with a mini excavator just like Adam has there, I physically only touch my wood one time! Logs come from crane services, huge oaks, maples, and ash trees mainly (24”-50” typically), buck them up and chuck rounds into a huge pile, hydraulic splitter for the mini, breaks them into 25-50lbs pieces, then the hands take the splits through the wood splitters and that’s it…load trailer with the bucket and thumb off the massive pile and down the road it goes…massive firewood piles make the money not little baskets full…haha!
Amazing set up, in the UK some suppliers use dumpy 1ton bags, the only difference is ours are kiln dried logs, not seasoned logs. Suggestion for the sawdust, compressed will make burnable log bricks. But the kit to do that could be expensive, the other alternative is animal bedding, ie horses, cows, chickens etc. Good luck, lovely setup you have.
Just a suggestion from a retired banker to add 8” to your totes to allow loose stacking that would avoid having to re-stack the firewood. Possibly sacrificing a tote to be cut for 8” that are welded to the kept tote. Crunch the upfront expenses to future labor cost recovery. Thanks for sharing the journey
If Adam loses 8" stacked volume then he would have to add more than 8" to make up for it when thrown in. Totes are galvanized which makes them ugly to weld, simpler to just use additional totes.
Recommendation - try marketing your wood shavings/sawdust at pet stores and farm supply stores. This works well for bedding for rabbits, gerbils and chickens. I filled coffee cans and put in some diesel and sold as fire starter too.
This was a great video for me at the right time. I'm just getting started in firewood and I've been debating how I want to store the wood for the next year (pallet rows, pallet bins, IBC's) so thank you for this...your math helped me to consider the differences.
Your setup is impressive sir. I see efficiency everywhere in your operation. Amazing what a little time, money, creativity, and good old-fashioned labor can accomplish.
I’m very impressed by your thorough work on how to to “work smarter, not harder.” I cut and burn firewood for home use, so, a very different scale, but might be of interest to your viewers. We block and split 2-3 cords per year. Anything over 20% moisture is stacked on racks outside, anything under 20% is stacked in Gaylord boxes ($10.00 each locally, hold 1/4 cord hardwood) which are moved under cover ( into a barn) with the subcompact tractor 3 point hitch pallet lifter. The outside stuff seasons, then goes into new Gaylords in the fall, delivered directly onto the covered deck, along with the barn wood. Goes into the house (10 ft.) in 32 gallon plastic tubs. The big improvement was moving the wood 1/4 cord per trip, instead of in tractor bucket loads, not having to restack on the the deck and not having to rebuild wood bins on the deck. A rough estimate would be 50% time and labor saving.
Another thought, the plant I work in throws away those totes and also a ton of wooden crates (think of a 4' pallet, but cubed). I've been looking for someone to take them away for free that has a use. We are nowhere near you, but now I'm going to call the closest firewood guy.
first time seeing your channel, this is one of the best firewood operations i've seen, very jealous! It's awesome. it's clean, efficient, you've got some good equipment. The one thing that makes this operation though is access to plenty of straight dead logs of the right diameter, some like myself aren't so lucky.
Good analysis of your operation. I geek out on numbers also. I get totes for free, I have a slowish box store style splitter with no conveyor, so I stack directly into the tote as I split. I sell in small quantites- delivery only (usually about 1/2 tote) and I like the way stacked wood looks better :D
First, your Mom is great at painting your firewood stand!! She is always there for you - like a Mom should be 😉😍❤️ That's so smart to just load the firewood directly into the totes - save your back!! Will you adjust the charge for the tote since there's less in it? That deck holds a lot of tree trunks!! It's very sturdy! Thanks for the great videos!! God bless you and your family! 🙏💕👍
One thing to consider when calculating cost/expense ratio and your hourly rate of stacking vs the cost of the totes. Your calculations are accurate if the totes were only used one time. Every time you refill those totes that hourly rate gets cut in half.
Love the idea. Especially when you figure how many times you will be dumping and filling the same tote. Another idea is to use an inexpensive dust collector to transfer saw dust directly into a trailer or a dedicated walled (1/4 plywood) tote.Harbor freight has a 1HP, 13 gallon unit for $169. Scrap the collection bag, run a 4” hose to collect from the saw outlet and another 4” hose to the collection bin and no more sawdust cleanup by hand.
THIS is something I find fascinating. That time when you're looking at what parts of an operation could potentially be changed around to get better results.
perfect setup for a conveyer system like you have. I don't have a conveyor system and I think you still make a valid point. It is faster to pull the split pieces off the splitter table and throw into a tote vs stacking. Also, I could overfill the ibc tote like you showed in the picture from another channel and not really lose any volume unstacked vs stacked.
For your slash and sawdust collectors, you might consider cutting the bladder-bottom walls a little higher on the back and sides to better capture the material and screwing the bottoms down to a wooden pallet to make them easier to move around after being loaded.
Like his style, grabbing it by the smooth end of the handle. Put some webbing on the front of those totes. Simple Velcro closer. The only place it must look good, is at customer delivery. Working at my dad's woodyard was the best part-time job I ever had. We turned one-hundred cords a season. We had location for retail pick-ups and made weekend deliveries. the
I like how you bring in your financial analysis skills to resolve whether you should stack or loose fill off the Japa, Adam. Brad at Firewood at the Furnace paid you a compliment on your Firewood Roadstand "mansion". It does look very professional and will serve you for many years.
Amazing setup Adam, it would be great to see if you could do a comparison/ retrospective video from where you were a few years back with the firewood vs today. As a long time watcher I’d be very interested!
Great idea I saw a video pop up from two years ago titled "final piece of the dream firewood making list" or something similar and I thought oh how things have changed.
If I ever get a conveyor I’ll be doing the same thing right off the splitter. I’m all about eliminating touches. I’d like to see a study on drying time for stacked vs. loose. Intuitively it seems loose would dry quicker but I’d love to see actual data.
He’s not much better off, he had half the baskets he has now…I’m calculating a 100/ basket, he’s making a extra 2500 for the season…and I never knew you actually paid for the baskets so…minus…them….he’s not making any money it seems…lol!
FOr me it's all about saving your back...after 43 years of mostly physical labor, it all catches up to you...Appreciate the price comparisons and examples.good price on your ibc totes...cheapest here is 75.
Adam, it also might save a little time consumed during the modification process of the IBC totes. If you don't do the cutout it also might prevent the 1 stick from falling out although it might make dumping the totes more challenging.
You are on the right track. The only problem with loose stacking, is there is too much air space, and "that" customer will be along claiming you shorted him and he wants more wood or cash. Loose stacking seems WAY WAY more profitable, as you'll save a ton in labor, like you said. so the simple solution is to loose stack it about one foot above the top of the tote, and even throw in 5-8 extra pieces on top of that. No call-backs. no complaining. No Karens.
If you turn your totes 90°, you will have a wider area to aim at with the slew. And you can put them really close together, so that the back of one will work as a form against the open side of the next tote. Also. I LOVE the videos!
Well done! Every efficiency counts in keeping a small business running well. You might next look at building something like a shallow bowl/tray to catch all that sawdust. Make it wider than the IBC lid and put some forklift pockets on the bottom. At the end of the day's work, pick the whole thing up at once and heft it to disposal.
This will never work around where I live. That wood will be gone including the stand and whatever money there probably wasn’t anyway. It wouldn’t last a day 😂!! In a perfect world this sounds amazing though.. ❤
Check out "In The Woodyard". He is now just putting his wood in big piles on pallets. It's working very well for him. You have alot of room for just piles. You would be saving on so many IBC totes. Then you could just load one up if you need to make a delivery. Just a thought. Love you are now doing this full time. Good for you!!!
Thanks for the updates on the channel brother. These videos are important for many folks to watch. You are doing the "R & D", lol. But, seriously, these numbers are super important. What you want to make in profits overall. What it costs you to process, stack, dry, load, unload, deliver, ect....What are you wanting to pay yourself (how much are you worth; per hour, per day) -- Conversely, if you have helpers, what are they worth per hour, per day?? You work to live. You want to avoid trading your hours for specific fixed costs if you can help it, because you should always be worth more & this is hard labor, no matter what machines & equipment you have assisting you. However, you are most likely also getting a great work out (if you work smart) & utilizing machines to get maximum efficiency out of them (cost per hour per unit over more use). Plus, if you're like Adam, or I, or many other youtuber folks, this is also a passion, which should not be discounted in the factoring. But, that's more of a plus. Many factors to consider in balancing profits, productivity, happiness. Good luck & stay safe out there.
Looks good! That's pretty cool that you can do 3 totes at once. Reminds me of bailing square hay bales and having to stack them all in the wagon as they shot out of the kickbailer. I didn't think it saved that much room, but hey I was the free labor, what did I know!
I agree with your assessment. Work smarter, not harder. Your time is your most valuable asset so if you can free up 45-75 minutes a day, that’s less wear and tear on yourself
Hey Adam. From now on if purchasing new totes don't cut an opening in them. Just leave them as they are. Should be able to travel even faster with the tractor/skidsteer without losing any. For the totes that have an opening cut-out maybe get Doug to tack in some sheet metal over the opening. Another advantage of this is that they can face either direction when loading from the processor. Idea! Maybe sell or trade your existing totes for uncut ones?
nice setup. it makes sense to dump the wood in those totes, especially as they are reusable as the guy mentioned below: and you can probably give some of the savings to your customers.... and less labor on moving logs means less chance of dropping them on your feet, getting splinters, etc.
I learned from selling firewood when I was a kid that it is all about reducing the amount of labor. The old joke of how many times does cutting firewood warm you really made me think back then. Efficiency is the key. Using tractors, conveyors, and other equipment is, of course, how you fight inefficiency.
If you really want to make sure wood doesn't fall out during transport and get a little more in each basket take the piece that you cut out of the front. Flip it over and zip-tie the top rail back onto the bottom of the cut out. It will now hinge like a door. Use a bungy cord or twine to secure it in place. I would say by doing this and overfilling the basket a bit you'll get back a large percentage of the volume that you lost from not stacking it. It's a little extra work initially but once it's done it's done. Dave
If I could I''d move to such a place, not only nice looking but where all people are so honest and respectful not to steal both the firewood and the money box within 4 hours
Good deal, Adam. And, like others already mentioned.... the IBC totes can be used for years and years, with only having the initial purchase price one time. 👍
I would love a video on your thoughts of covering the totes vs not. I use totes to store my firewood but keep them covered by using the IBC bladder cut in half then using thick zip ties to hold them in place - gives me about 8” of additional storage as well. The bladder caps keep most of the rain/snow off them all year round. I bring wood into the house directly from the totes, and not having the caps would mean I would be bringing in wet wood. Do your customers have an issue with receiving wood delivery that has been sitting out in the rain and snow all year?
Adam, another very enjoyable video. I think one or two American flags on the roadside stand would draw attention and really dress up the stand. I’ve been a carpenter all my life and want to say bravo on the construction of your stand.
I wouldn't split a lot of that. For me 16 inch long by 8 inch is ideal. With some small stuff to fill in the edges. Nice operation though. Best Wishes from Montana! M.H.
You could easily make bricks out of all that sawdust. The poly bins from the inc's would make good mixing tubs. Alternately could run it through a pelletizer to crank out bags of pellets.
If you had a shaker platform you would find the wood, would stack its self once inside the tote, it might also be a good idea to go by weight if you are not going to stack anymore to ensure your customers get a uniform amount of wood or you could measure the lengths of wood unless they are a set length either weight or length per tote.
I did a similar experiment myself with my firewood. Roughly a 20% space saving by stacking and because I have loads of IBCs so stacking for me is in no way worth the extra hassle and labour. I'm very fortunate though as I get my IBCs for free
I use a 1"x6" board across the opening I have cut out my totes. It holds the wood in, and you can slide it out for better access if you're filling your wood boxes.
We use vented min bulk bags. When i went into the firewood business the one thing i had on mind is to not handle the firewood anymore then needed. The drying of the wood is much better loose, and we sellnit by the bag and figure 160 cubic ft per cord, this is pretty much on when stacking for our winter burn needs.
I would consider both methods. As a buyer I would be willing to put down a reasonable deposit on several totes in order to have 6-7 cords neatly arraigned on property without my having to stack the wood. It would also give you a very likely return customer where you could drop off 6-7 cords in full totes in the spring while you haul away the empties.
I've been drying my wood in rebar mesh cages for over 20 years and they as still as good as new. Rust protects them from rusting. Back then, I paid about 10€ per each as a material and used about10-15 min per each for cutting and welding. They are round and have bottom and they work well.
Wow you have a good set up going. My brother and I in about 1968 got up Super early on Saturday to try to split a 12 tone load of wood our father brought in on his truck. We thought we could do it all in a day. Dads reply, if you get it all done I will give you $10 each. He knew his money was safe. I can't remember, but we may have done a tone or more. Not bad for two boys about 12 years of age. Way I see it with stacking V loose. Loose you save 13 minuets and 10% less wood. Loose has to be the way to go. Once you have the cages you can reuse many times.
Every time you re-use the totes, your labor savings increase....4 reuses cost 1/4 the original labor, for example, reduced by any repairs required. I would place the totes on something for drying...railroad tie chunks or cement blocks for better air flow underneath, maybe fewer insects too. I would work on something for moving full totes out of the way and bringing new ones in at the processor: a salvaged conveyor to move totes sideways, or a wagon that holds some totes, which a lawn tractor could pull out and pull a new one in, etc. Several yard carts save time in moving totes to drying area too. How you have it works fine though too! Extending takeoff conveyor or adding a stacking section could broaden semi-circle to 6 or more totes. I would have thought unstacked holds 60% of stacked....just like my old pickup bed used to lol Thank you!
Looks dialed in that set up ⬆️ 🎉just goes to show how intensive wood cutting is ✊have many mates that part time cut to sell in winter 🥶 it’s a heck of a lot of work 👍I notice this yr one mate is getting his logs like you dropped off full length as opposed to going on site and cutting and splitting in the bush 👌the totes are my fave thing for a lot of uses 👍
In Estonia... We sold stacked onto a truck per m3... Always put some extra, cause during the delivery it shook down a little. Price varied from the lenght of the cut. 3x10m3 per day was already ok. Stacker on the truck was paid 1EUR per m3. Operator was at that time up to 5EUR.
More information on the Japa firewood processor
www.metsamachines.com/our-products/japa-firewood-processors/
new totes are reusable, your maths applies to a 1 time purchase.
additional maths to consider, is extra trips, for every 4 baskets you will be hauling a 5th now, it might be only a few mins, but its time and by your math time is indeed money.
though loose stacking certainly is the way to go here.
Get yourself some good looking bags & fill them up with the wood chips. Most folks pay good money for them, they're good for chicken coops. GOD Bless.
What a coincidence that youtube recommends me a video of someone from the states using "Made In Finland" product lol. Does it have many plastic parts, or do they still make everything here either from metal or wood? :D
I believe your labor vs. tote calc is off on the dollars because you will use the totes again and again for the original $400 You will have to stack again and again and again at a cost of 11 hours each time you stack the wood (based on the 50 tote example). So, for the first time you use the totes, $36.36/hour is the result, but the value of the tote increases each time you don't stack in it after that, so over time that tote will come down significantly in "hourly price"
TBH - never understood why you were stacking in the totes to begin with.
Loose piling with the totes is probably the most efficient drying you will get. Lots of small piles held a little bit off the ground- way to go! And as you noted, they are just going to get dumped into a trailer for delivery anyway.
Love the channel Good luck!
Right. If one supposes the lifetime of a tote is 15 years, (15 seasons) - the annual cost of the 8 totes is $26.66. So then at 11 hours of labor, you'd be at $2.42/hr for stacking.
He also needs to consider, if he can put out more totes per hour then with stacking he is making additional income.
I came here to say this too. One time fixed cost - or at least until the things break and they are durable. Also he can churn out a lot more totes so if demand is ever higher than his output capacity with stacking, he's coming ahead there too.
Not to mention the savings on your back!
So much this!
Also don’t cut out the side of future totes. They will hold a little more and not drop wood out when transporting as easily. (Plus another time saver not having to cut totes.😂)
The economics on not stacking are even better because the totes aren’t single use. They last for years… thus you save the time annually and don’t incur the cost annually. 😎. Nice operation! I like that swinging conveyor. Now you just need a second tractor so you never need to unhook the PTO 😆.
Great point!
This was the first thing that popped into my mind as well.
Use the digger to move the full totes out of the way and replace with empty ones. At the end of the day unhook PTO and move the totes to the drying area. Do it once and no extra tractor required.
@@PurpleCollarLife could also have a concrete pad and use a pallet Jack to move the totes by hand to a central staging area.
@@5sideK9 Here the same !
It would be interesting to do a moisture comparison. If you stack one and loose fill one to see if the loose fill one would dry faster because it has better air flow. If it does dry faster, that also lessens the turn around time providing that you have the sales for it. That's my 2 cents. 🧐
It does dry faster when you loose fill. I never waste my time stacking wood, time is too precious.
Thought that as well...
@@SimonWoodburyForget Where you got that idea? More end grain surface area visible for to sun to shine? Maybe that is the case but if you make it 3 rows stacked middle one gets barely any sunlight. When loose filled sun gets to center as well. Also turbulent airflow tends to pick up more moisture and heat from the surface than laminar flow of air. I do have time to stack but not enough energy to do so. Only ones that i stack are 1meter long ones witch two stacks can be put into one EUR pallet with its added 3 board strips and after drying those are cut into 30/70 peaces for our fireplace sizes. From what i have seen both are about fast to dry so i would not bother for stacking for next winters firewood. Only for extended storage.
Loose fill and stacking ratio is dependant on the container properties and the log size.
In perfect model you would have no walls - a very large pile is close enough and in this case the ratio is about 0.7 to 1. In the tote packing the stacked way it appears to leave big gaps in the sides. This really depends on the log length.
For drying purposes in the tote the loose way could be better but it is well known that in a large loose pile it dries slower and there is risk of mould developing in the inside.
Same thought! If I had these I'd also put a tarp on them just to keep the top-down rain off.
Adam, I like the way you show us as you learn rather than figuring it out and then presenting the result. Makes for more interesting videos and is more inspirational. Thanks!
In Finland we have formulae between stacked and a thrown pile. 1m3 of thrown wood is 0.6 m3 stacked wood. And 1m3 of stacked wood equals 1.67 throw pile. Japa is a good machine! I have one from 2013. Made in Finland!
that sounds like the difference between kilometers/hr and miles/hr: 1.6 to 1.
I make firewood for my own use. We have been heating with wood for over 40 years now. I've never had so much wood on hand that I didn't want to keep just in case. So when I watch the guys that sell it stacking it all neatly, I think I'm glad I don't have to do that! I've been using old trailers (anything that will roll, with or without tires that hold air) hay wagons and IBC tote cages for years now to save labor. I don't have to measure other than to say I've got so many trailers, wagons and bins full. I have no idea how many cords of wood I burn in a winter. I don't even care as long as the wood lasts longer than the winter. Since going to this method we save about 80% of the work of firewood. No way I would stack a tote if I didn't have to! I have a half dozen or so trailers, 3 hay wagons and over 50 totes currently. I'm happy if they are all full in the fall and last for heating the house, shop and cooking maple syrup. I burn only dead and down wood so the dry time is much less. I see more wasted firewood on UA-cam! A little rot will dry out and burn fine. But now I'm just ranting!
I like the way you analyze things. As a businessman, it is wise to be this way, but our time is out most previous commodity. We have a finite supply of that so anything done in processing wood that saves time makes sense usually, in my opinion.
As a numbers guy, I really appreciate your analyses of cost and effort in the things you do. Also love the timber frame firewood stand. It's a gorgeous structure, and your mom's painting is beautiful.
Thank you very much!
Is the price for non-stacked totes reflecting the lower amount of firewood from stacked totes?
Nice to hear that there are still neighbors that are trust worthy helping themselves and leaving payments unattended . Where i live in they will take the money box and firewood away free .
Two suggestions. 1. If you’re sticking with the no stack method then you don’t necessarily need to cut the opening in the totes if you’re just going to empty them into your trailer for delivery. Without the opening they should be able to fit a little more wood into them. 2. Instead of cutting the lids like shallow trays you could make them deeper to hold more sawdust and wood chips and just recess them into the ground a little.
can repair the cuts with wire and hogwire
Not cutting the totes also allows you to stack them. My firewood guy does this despite having plenty of space available. According to him the upper ones dry much better because they catch more wind.
The whole video was abstract/subjective. Very smart!!
Stacking is fine if you have nothing better to do and of course a much smaller volume. Working with wood is a lot of work anyways. It's mostly about looks comparing stacked vs piled freely.
Or just put a sheet down to catch all the chip…🤷♂️
After watching you, Out Doors with the Morgans and Back 40 Firewood channels, I have always wondered why you stack the totes. Now you have answered my question and probably that of other watchers. Thanks. Stay safe.
One thing you failed to mention is that if you're stacking you have to keep stopping cutting logs and go over to the tote and stacking then repeat vs. Just being able to keep cutting logs.
More firewood goes through the processor in a year, and that in turn lowers the depreciation cost per cord. Lowering your costs allows you to produce more with the same overall labor cost. But as you increase the supply, more of your time will go to marketing and delivery.
That’s 11 hours every 50 totes Vs the one time cost of the extra 8 totes. No way stacking saves money/time.
This is the first video I've seen that really shows the output capacity of that processor and the conveyor, that thing is incredible.
Also, just as others have pointed out that the 8 extra IBC totes are reused, thus amortizing their cost, the 11 hours of stacking time is also available repeatedly! So we’re talking about a huge opportunity cost of stacking. Each set of those 11 hours can be used for production further amortizing the extra cost of the totes. Assuming you have the demand for your product, this is a highly profitable virtuous circle. Good video!
And the savings on your back is going to come in handy later
What a fantastic setup to begin with, and completely agree with going with the non-stacked approach based on your analysis, and especially given the amount of totes you already have in your operation. The time savings will be amazing as it compounds and totes re-used. I think I'd also put some sort of markers down on the ground where the three totes go so you don't have to even think about it when replacing them with empties.
It's nice to see a Finnish firewood processor in the wild! Greetings from Finland!
My thought Adam, If you are going to drop the wood in loose, I would not cut out part of the basket. I would cut that piece out to the bottom and find a way to hinge it so you could let it open as a gate when you dump into the trailer.
Adam, you could easily make another section for your log deck and save having to cut them in half. I made one that is 10' wide for my buddy's Blackscreek processor and it was pretty easy. I think your next consideration is a skid mounted stand alone power pack for the processor. Either direct drive or could even convert it to full hydraulic drive. Much easier than having to switch your tractor around. FYI, I use conveyors off my processor and pile the splits in tall piles. I'm in a windy location so never have mold issues. I hand load onto a conveyor which dumps into my dump trailer or flat bed. This means clean splits and very little bark to the client. Totes are expensive here now and too much handling for me.
You seem to have a good system going! I produce hundreds of cords a season with a mini excavator just like Adam has there, I physically only touch my wood one time! Logs come from crane services, huge oaks, maples, and ash trees mainly (24”-50” typically), buck them up and chuck rounds into a huge pile, hydraulic splitter for the mini, breaks them into 25-50lbs pieces, then the hands take the splits through the wood splitters and that’s it…load trailer with the bucket and thumb off the massive pile and down the road it goes…massive firewood piles make the money not little baskets full…haha!
Amazing set up, in the UK some suppliers use dumpy 1ton bags, the only difference is ours are kiln dried logs, not seasoned logs. Suggestion for the sawdust, compressed will make burnable log bricks. But the kit to do that could be expensive, the other alternative is animal bedding, ie horses, cows, chickens etc. Good luck, lovely setup you have.
I was also going to suggest the animal bedding route
There’s always the spit and sawdust saloon floor, but I can still remember it on the tiled floor of the butchers shop (UK 1950’s)😂😂
You build really inspired me. I built my own shed with a shingle roof from old timber, it looks a lot like yours, so thanks.
Just a suggestion from a retired banker to add 8” to your totes to allow loose stacking that would avoid having to re-stack the firewood. Possibly sacrificing a tote to be cut for 8” that are welded to the kept tote. Crunch the upfront expenses to future labor cost recovery. Thanks for sharing the journey
If Adam loses 8" stacked volume then he would have to add more than 8" to make up for it when thrown in. Totes are galvanized which makes them ugly to weld, simpler to just use additional totes.
Recommendation - try marketing your wood shavings/sawdust at pet stores and farm supply stores. This works well for bedding for rabbits, gerbils and chickens. I filled coffee cans and put in some diesel and sold as fire starter too.
This was a great video for me at the right time. I'm just getting started in firewood and I've been debating how I want to store the wood for the next year (pallet rows, pallet bins, IBC's) so thank you for this...your math helped me to consider the differences.
Your setup is impressive sir. I see efficiency everywhere in your operation. Amazing what a little time, money, creativity, and good old-fashioned labor can accomplish.
That is one nice looking firewood stand you have. Your mother does a excellent job lettering too! I wish I were as talented.
Yes she does
I’m very impressed by your thorough work on how to to “work smarter, not harder.” I cut and burn firewood for home use, so, a very different scale, but might be of interest to your viewers. We block and split 2-3 cords per year. Anything over 20% moisture is stacked on racks outside, anything under 20% is stacked in Gaylord boxes ($10.00 each locally, hold 1/4 cord hardwood) which are moved under cover ( into a barn) with the subcompact tractor 3 point hitch pallet lifter. The outside stuff seasons, then goes into new Gaylords in the fall, delivered directly onto the covered deck, along with the barn wood. Goes into the house (10 ft.) in 32 gallon plastic tubs. The big improvement was moving the wood 1/4 cord per trip, instead of in tractor bucket loads, not having to restack on the the deck and not having to rebuild wood bins on the deck. A rough estimate would be 50% time and labor saving.
Great job with the channel and all the various topics you cover. I do miss the simple banjo picking music from the older videos..
Very nice job explaining the ins an outs of stacking vs not stacking an having the math to back it up . We stack everything but now ya got me thinking
Another thought, the plant I work in throws away those totes and also a ton of wooden crates (think of a 4' pallet, but cubed). I've been looking for someone to take them away for free that has a use. We are nowhere near you, but now I'm going to call the closest firewood guy.
first time seeing your channel, this is one of the best firewood operations i've seen, very jealous! It's awesome. it's clean, efficient, you've got some good equipment. The one thing that makes this operation though is access to plenty of straight dead logs of the right diameter, some like myself aren't so lucky.
I really enjoyed your analytical thought process to justify the change! Great business model.
Good analysis of your operation. I geek out on numbers also.
I get totes for free, I have a slowish box store style splitter with no conveyor, so I stack directly into the tote as I split.
I sell in small quantites- delivery only (usually about 1/2 tote)
and I like the way stacked wood looks better :D
First, your Mom is great at painting your firewood stand!! She is always there for you - like a Mom should be 😉😍❤️ That's so smart to just load the firewood directly into the totes - save your back!! Will you adjust the charge for the tote since there's less in it? That deck holds a lot of tree trunks!! It's very sturdy! Thanks for the great videos!! God bless you and your family! 🙏💕👍
One thing to consider when calculating cost/expense ratio and your hourly rate of stacking vs the cost of the totes. Your calculations are accurate if the totes were only used one time. Every time you refill those totes that hourly rate gets cut in half.
Love the idea. Especially when you figure how many times you will be dumping and filling the same tote. Another idea is to use an inexpensive dust collector to transfer saw dust directly into a trailer or a dedicated walled (1/4 plywood) tote.Harbor freight has a 1HP, 13 gallon unit for $169. Scrap the collection bag, run a 4” hose to collect from the saw outlet and another 4” hose to the collection bin and no more sawdust cleanup by hand.
This is probably the best setup for one man band operation, EVER!
THIS is something I find fascinating. That time when you're looking at what parts of an operation could potentially be changed around to get better results.
perfect setup for a conveyer system like you have. I don't have a conveyor system and I think you still make a valid point. It is faster to pull the split pieces off the splitter table and throw into a tote vs stacking. Also, I could overfill the ibc tote like you showed in the picture from another channel and not really lose any volume unstacked vs stacked.
For your slash and sawdust collectors, you might consider cutting the bladder-bottom walls a little higher on the back and sides to better capture the material and screwing the bottoms down to a wooden pallet to make them easier to move around after being loaded.
Like his style, grabbing it by the smooth end of the handle. Put some webbing on the front of
those totes. Simple Velcro closer. The only place it must look good, is at customer delivery.
Working at my dad's woodyard was the best part-time job I ever had. We turned one-hundred
cords a season. We had location for retail pick-ups and made weekend deliveries.
the
I like how you bring in your financial analysis skills to resolve whether you should stack or loose fill off the Japa, Adam. Brad at Firewood at the Furnace paid you a compliment on your Firewood Roadstand "mansion". It does look very professional and will serve you for many years.
I like that you explain the math on how to determine if it makes sense to stack or not. It will depend as you well explained.
Amazing setup Adam, it would be great to see if you could do a comparison/ retrospective video from where you were a few years back with the firewood vs today. As a long time watcher I’d be very interested!
Great idea I saw a video pop up from two years ago titled "final piece of the dream firewood making list" or something similar and I thought oh how things have changed.
If I ever get a conveyor I’ll be doing the same thing right off the splitter. I’m all about eliminating touches. I’d like to see a study on drying time for stacked vs. loose. Intuitively it seems loose would dry quicker but I’d love to see actual data.
He’s not much better off, he had half the baskets he has now…I’m calculating a 100/ basket, he’s making a extra 2500 for the season…and I never knew you actually paid for the baskets so…minus…them….he’s not making any money it seems…lol!
@@njonebale7889 baskets are reusable so may do 15 years? But are only paid for once.
FOr me it's all about saving your back...after 43 years of mostly physical labor, it all catches up to you...Appreciate the price comparisons and examples.good price on your ibc totes...cheapest here is 75.
Adam, it also might save a little time consumed during the modification process of the IBC totes. If you don't do the cutout it also might prevent the 1 stick from falling out although it might make dumping the totes more challenging.
You are on the right track. The only problem with loose stacking, is there is too much air space, and "that" customer will be along claiming you shorted him and he wants more wood or cash.
Loose stacking seems WAY WAY more profitable, as you'll save a ton in labor, like you said.
so the simple solution is to loose stack it about one foot above the top of the tote, and even throw in 5-8 extra pieces on top of that.
No call-backs. no complaining. No Karens.
Work smarter not harder!!!
Have a great day Adam,God Bless you and yours!!!❤😊
"I want to make my purchasing decision before I pull in"
Plus all the math you did on the stacking / non-stacking processes
easiest sub i've ever done
Thanks for the shout out Adam, not stacking, is definitely the way to go!
It sure is
Hello Adam, We never stack totes, even have a video of filling a shipping container with them, Really nice work in the firewood stand 👏🪵🇺🇸
If you turn your totes 90°, you will have a wider area to aim at with the slew. And you can put them really close together, so that the back of one will work as a form against the open side of the next tote. Also. I LOVE the videos!
Well done! Every efficiency counts in keeping a small business running well.
You might next look at building something like a shallow bowl/tray to catch all that sawdust. Make it wider than the IBC lid and put some forklift pockets on the bottom. At the end of the day's work, pick the whole thing up at once and heft it to disposal.
This will never work around where I live. That wood will be gone including the stand and whatever money there probably wasn’t anyway. It wouldn’t last a day 😂!!
In a perfect world this sounds amazing though.. ❤
Anything to save time and Make life easier and productivity faster is a win in my book
Check out "In The Woodyard". He is now just putting his wood in big piles on pallets. It's working very well for him. You have alot of room for just piles. You would be saving on so many IBC totes. Then you could just load one up if you need to make a delivery. Just a thought. Love you are now doing this full time. Good for you!!!
Adam, working smarter not harder is always the best answer. This is a very interesting video. Bill H from Cranberry Township
In stead of the lids, you can use some heavy duty tarp.
If you always do it the same place, you could even make a concrete slab for the work area.
Thanks for the updates on the channel brother. These videos are important for many folks to watch. You are doing the "R & D", lol. But, seriously, these numbers are super important. What you want to make in profits overall. What it costs you to process, stack, dry, load, unload, deliver, ect....What are you wanting to pay yourself (how much are you worth; per hour, per day) -- Conversely, if you have helpers, what are they worth per hour, per day??
You work to live. You want to avoid trading your hours for specific fixed costs if you can help it, because you should always be worth more & this is hard labor, no matter what machines & equipment you have assisting you. However, you are most likely also getting a great work out (if you work smart) & utilizing machines to get maximum efficiency out of them (cost per hour per unit over more use). Plus, if you're like Adam, or I, or many other youtuber folks, this is also a passion, which should not be discounted in the factoring. But, that's more of a plus.
Many factors to consider in balancing profits, productivity, happiness. Good luck & stay safe out there.
Looks good! That's pretty cool that you can do 3 totes at once. Reminds me of bailing square hay bales and having to stack them all in the wagon as they shot out of the kickbailer. I didn't think it saved that much room, but hey I was the free labor, what did I know!
I agree with your assessment. Work smarter, not harder. Your time is your most valuable asset so if you can free up 45-75 minutes a day, that’s less wear and tear on yourself
Hey Adam. From now on if purchasing new totes don't cut an opening in them. Just leave them as they are. Should be able to travel even faster with the tractor/skidsteer without losing any. For the totes that have an opening cut-out maybe get Doug to tack in some sheet metal over the opening. Another advantage of this is that they can face either direction when loading from the processor. Idea! Maybe sell or trade your existing totes for uncut ones?
Cheers lad I am in ireland. I bought two Inc's 10 quid each I have three now there brilliant for drying your logs
nice setup. it makes sense to dump the wood in those totes, especially as they are reusable as the guy mentioned below: and you can probably give some of the savings to your customers.... and less labor on moving logs means less chance of dropping them on your feet, getting splinters, etc.
We never stacked into totes. But giving it a try for bundle wood to see if it speeds up grabbing wood out to wrap.
Another great video, thank you Adam.
I learned from selling firewood when I was a kid that it is all about reducing the amount of labor. The old joke of how many times does cutting firewood warm you really made me think back then. Efficiency is the key. Using tractors, conveyors, and other equipment is, of course, how you fight inefficiency.
Wood warms you 4 times from tree to stove.
If you really want to make sure wood doesn't fall out during transport and get a little more in each basket take the piece that you cut out of the front. Flip it over and zip-tie the top rail back onto the bottom of the cut out. It will now hinge like a door. Use a bungy cord or twine to secure it in place. I would say by doing this and overfilling the basket a bit you'll get back a large percentage of the volume that you lost from not stacking it. It's a little extra work initially but once it's done it's done. Dave
Enjoyed the video. That machine is pretty sweet splitting logs. Good stuff.
If I could I''d move to such a place, not only nice looking but where all people are so honest and respectful not to steal both the firewood and the money box within 4 hours
Great video! Very thoughtful in your business decisions!
Hey Adam, i think if you position the totes correctly you could fill six of them at a time. Worth a try anyway.
Keep it up!
Great video kind of cool how you got your mom to dress up in Easton made colors😊
Good deal, Adam.
And, like others already mentioned.... the IBC totes can be used for years and years, with only having the initial purchase price one time.
👍
Awesome firewood operations that you have there.
I would love a video on your thoughts of covering the totes vs not. I use totes to store my firewood but keep them covered by using the IBC bladder cut in half then using thick zip ties to hold them in place - gives me about 8” of additional storage as well. The bladder caps keep most of the rain/snow off them all year round. I bring wood into the house directly from the totes, and not having the caps would mean I would be bringing in wet wood.
Do your customers have an issue with receiving wood delivery that has been sitting out in the rain and snow all year?
The cost of the totes is based off of reusing them as long as nothing happens to them. Love the channel.
Adam, another very enjoyable video. I think one or two American flags on the roadside stand would draw attention and really dress up the stand. I’ve been a carpenter all my life and want to say bravo on the construction of your stand.
Do you think having the conveyor lower to the basket would help with the erratic log toss?
I will keep stacking my firewood thanks. It don't rot, get moldy and it looks better. Keep doing you bud
Thanks for sharing your good business sense.
I wouldn't split a lot of that.
For me 16 inch long by 8 inch is ideal. With some small stuff to fill in the edges.
Nice operation though.
Best Wishes from Montana! M.H.
Love your analytics! Knowledge is power.
You could easily make bricks out of all that sawdust. The poly bins from the inc's would make good mixing tubs. Alternately could run it through a pelletizer to crank out bags of pellets.
Could you do a video on all the per use maintenance and inspection you do? Chain sharpness, bar oil, pro clearances, and then the cleanup.
If you had a shaker platform you would find the wood, would stack its self once inside the tote, it might also be a good idea to go by weight if you are not going to stack anymore to ensure your customers get a uniform amount of wood or you could measure the lengths of wood unless they are a set length either weight or length per tote.
I did a similar experiment myself with my firewood. Roughly a 20% space saving by stacking and because I have loads of IBCs so stacking for me is in no way worth the extra hassle and labour. I'm very fortunate though as I get my IBCs for free
If you run out of totes check out the way chris from in the wood yard stores and drys his firewood.
Nice job Mom!
I use a 1"x6" board across the opening I have cut out my totes. It holds the wood in, and you can slide it out for better access if you're filling your wood boxes.
We use vented min bulk bags. When i went into the firewood business the one thing i had on mind is to not handle the firewood anymore then needed. The drying of the wood is much better loose, and we sellnit by the bag and figure 160 cubic ft per cord, this is pretty much on when stacking for our winter burn needs.
I would consider both methods. As a buyer I would be willing to put down a reasonable deposit on several totes in order to have 6-7 cords neatly arraigned on property without my having to stack the wood. It would also give you a very likely return customer where you could drop off 6-7 cords in full totes in the spring while you haul away the empties.
I've been drying my wood in rebar mesh cages for over 20 years and they as still as good as new. Rust protects them from rusting.
Back then, I paid about 10€ per each as a material and used about10-15 min per each for cutting and welding. They are round and have bottom and they work well.
Wow you have a good set up going. My brother and I in about 1968 got up Super early on Saturday to try to split a 12 tone load of wood our father brought in on his truck. We thought we could do it all in a day. Dads reply, if you get it all done I will give you $10 each. He knew his money was safe. I can't remember, but we may have done a tone or more. Not bad for two boys about 12 years of age.
Way I see it with stacking V loose. Loose you save 13 minuets and 10% less wood. Loose has to be the way to go. Once you have the cages you can reuse many times.
Mom’s lettering is awesome! 👍
Every time you re-use the totes, your labor savings increase....4 reuses cost 1/4 the original labor, for example, reduced by any repairs required.
I would place the totes on something for drying...railroad tie chunks or cement blocks for better air flow underneath, maybe fewer insects too.
I would work on something for moving full totes out of the way and bringing new ones in at the processor: a salvaged conveyor to move totes sideways, or a wagon that holds some totes, which a lawn tractor could pull out and pull a new one in, etc. Several yard carts save time in moving totes to drying area too. How you have it works fine though too! Extending takeoff conveyor or adding a stacking section could broaden semi-circle to 6 or more totes.
I would have thought unstacked holds 60% of stacked....just like my old pickup bed used to lol Thank you!
Looks dialed in that set up ⬆️ 🎉just goes to show how intensive wood cutting is ✊have many mates that part time cut to sell in winter 🥶 it’s a heck of a lot of work 👍I notice this yr one mate is getting his logs like you dropped off full length as opposed to going on site and cutting and splitting in the bush 👌the totes are my fave thing for a lot of uses 👍
I think the savings in time/money justify not stacking the totes. Great work! 😊
In Estonia... We sold stacked onto a truck per m3... Always put some extra, cause during the delivery it shook down a little. Price varied from the lenght of the cut. 3x10m3 per day was already ok. Stacker on the truck was paid 1EUR per m3. Operator was at that time up to 5EUR.
This beautiful set up makes a Californian want to leave the desk job and start choppin wood!