Honestly, just give all veteran units sticky objectives. I feel like that’s more effective and helps convey the 1st company as that most elite group of astarted
That would have been a much more fun detachment rule. Not only is their current rule not that good, it’s such a “feels bad” rule as he says. Take their sticky strat, give it to all veterans. Then replace that strat with some actually good / usable and you have a real detatchment. I might try them out once cuz I own lots of veterns. Just for fun.
@Tylerjstratton i don't get why GW took a middling faction and made their army rule worse, just to then stick the original back in as a detachment rule for ONE TURN. I can understand why it feel so bad to use. No other SM detachment has a once per game special rule. I think you'd be hard pressed to find any other faction that has a detachment rule that is one turn only.
'When making attacks against an enemy unit selected for this detachments Oath of Moment ability, any Character, Terminator, Assault Terminator, Vanguard Veteran, Sternguard Veteran or Bladeguard Veteran units in this detachment can also re-roll the wound roll.' Fixed it.
That would be a massive improvement. Though, I would honestly still like more OC for elites or the like. I also still just question teh change to oath to moment in general. I'm curious if it's going to stay or if it's going to get reversed.
Let's be honest. They don't have a tactic. They have a once per game buff that does nothing before, or after it's used. Just look at the other ones to see the start contrast. Stealth and Cover for the Vanguard spearhead, All weapons getting assault and +1 str within 12 inches, permanently. All weapons getting heavy and +1 to wound, all game long. And this one? You get a one turn buff of the thing we cut out of your core rules, then sold back to you as a shitty one turn buff against one unit, for one turn. GW really phoned it in with this one. I mean, you could have easily made it something like 'Reroll all hits and wounds against the Oath of moment target for your Veteran units only" If your concern was them building non-veteran units to abuse the old oath rules. That would at least make it usable, but then you're also hamstrung by an EXTREMELY lackluster unit lineup that can even make use of it. What, Bladeguard, Terminators, and Sternguard? I think Vanguard vets are there too, but even then there's no real variety to those units and they all tend to focus heavily on anti infantry or anti elite damage at best. Honestly I think this whole detachment needs to be ripped apart and re-written. The other ones by comparison, while definitely not equal in power, all are at least usable all game long.
Extremis level threat should be separate from oaths. Every turn you pick one unit to be your extremis level threat and get re roll wounds against it. So you have one unit to re roll hits against and another for wounds or you can double them up on the same unit to make it old skool oaths
My problem with this detachment is not how powerfull it is or it isn´t. I just think is very unimaginative, the other 6 are perfect to represent the diferent fighting stiles for diferent chapters, some may be more or less powerfull but all of them interesting.
I agree. It doesn't help that they nerfed oath of moment only to bring it back in a weaker form for this detachment. It just doesn't feel good, regardless for how good or bad the rules actually are.
I could see myself using every other detachment just to try them out even if they might not be the best, the veteran detachment is just so feelsbad I refuse to touch it. if I want to run terminators I'll wait for the dark angels codex
@@ryza7760 I might try it out once or twice if I ever get enough veterans together. But I do hope they rewrite it into something more fun. At least restore the old oath of moment instead of just making it an one turn per game thing.
One slight QoL buff I'd like to see is the addition of the Veteran keyword. They could key a lot off of this, and give it to divergent units like Sanguinary Guards (who are veteran, but do not benefit from strats here)
You know. . . I kind of hope this leads to the divergent chapters not using the codex compliant rules once their codexes come out. Maybe that way, GW may get a little more aggressive/efficient with some of this stuff without trying to balance entirely too many units against it.
We can only hope the divergent Chaptsr vets are retroactively made compatible with the detachment. I feel like Black Templars and Blood Angels would have a lot of fun with it.
The thing I don’t understand about this detachment is why it excludes things like chapter vets (Sword brethren/Sanguinary guard and so on) it could just have a keyword for vets and why things like company heroes isn’t included
GW: We’ve noticed that space marines are struggling quite a bit right now so we’re going to make some changes to their rules. Players: Oh so your going to give us some buffs to help us out right? GW: ….. Players: Right?
Even with the loss of oath 2 of the new detachments are really good. Firestorm and the tank one. And the vanguard one is good enough. The mounted one unfortunately probably only works for space wolves and maby ds ravenwing with the loss of standard bike units just not enough mounted units to make good use if it for any one else. The stand still one is not acualy bad just not good enough for competing on dense tables.
@@wonderfred not really plenty of ways to kill heavy stuff not as good at it as let's say aeldari but they can handle tough things decently enough gladiator Lancer, ballistis dread, repulser executioner, even the predator anihalator. All are decent enough at killing vehicles of any sort. Again they are no aeldari but they are fine. Aggressors with apothecary bilogis are no crisis suit with cyclic ion but they are solid enough. For the immediate future marines are absolutely fine if codex creep picks up as the edition goes on as it usaly does then they will be in trouble later on but for now they should be relatively healthy and balanced. Yes that means I think it is a good thing when a new codex does not make the army getting it the best at release.
@@freddymcshreddy6586 nothing really wrong with them except they are mostly balanced un like some armies at the top aeldari for 1. You should be able to compete against most armies now not on an even keel but most battles should be winnible now. I honestly can't think of a unit that you can't kill. OK heavy infantry in cover with base 2+ saves is hellish but one of the best sourses for that is in marines, terminators. Yes marines do not have a perfect kill every thing in one shot unit aggressor combo good but not that good. So what to be frank no one should have a perfect kill everything unit that is a sign of bad balancing. Marines have great MSU and screening abilities. Scouts, inceptors,, JUMP ASSAULT INTERSORS, INCURSORS, ELIMINATORS, INFILTRATORS, PHOBOS CAPTAIN LIEUTENANT WITH COMBIWEAPON. Particuraly in the vanguard detachment but I'd good in all detachments marines have the tools to play the game. This means even if you had no ability to kill you could still score points, but marines kill things just fine. There are plenty of units that can kill tanks gladiator Lancer is solid this would be good in any list accept maby aeldari or possibly tau. Balistus dread great against most vehicles just lacking against t12 and 13 vehicles but very survivable compared to Lancer. Repulsor executioner fine overall but not enough at per point to bring in as primary at this unit does other things and is cost such that it would be foolish to ignore those after paying for it. Predator anihalator. If you discount the inbuilt reroll this honestly has more at capacity then the Lancer but with out those inbuilt rerolls it is less reliable. For anti infantry or hottest there so many options no point in even talking about them the toughest units to kill are 3 or more wound infantry with a 2+ save in cover and we still have hellblasters as a answer to those. Marines do not such they are a solid and balanced force with options depending on what type of meta you are playing against. Not the best but certainly fine
The detachment ability should be called 'Crux Terminatus', and INADDITION to the once a game re-roll wound ability, all the veteran units should get OC2.
The fnp Enhancement for terminators does give you the option of taking deploy teleport homer and just hold the centre of the board farming points. Take 10 assault terminators with shields and good luck to your opponent getting rid of 4 wound terminators with a 5++ fnp.
@@Romancenturion-no3cm Sure, you can win games with anything. And I don't own a single Templar exclusive model but I've been running their detachment for months haha. Standard marine models still love a 6+ fnp
The vanguard vets with jump packs are really still around for blood angels. At thier cost, the 4++ with a sang priest 5+++ and the extra ap from the priest makes them tough and mighty. Throw Dante with a squad and a priest too. Big tough and fast with plenty of damage.
Sadly the Bladeguard ancient didn't get his own share here, if only he could double the OC of bladeguards and/or enhance the bladeguard offensive and defensive
I REALLY dislike the loss of weapon options for the Terminator Captain. Pretty much every SM player built one at the start of 10th, because they are actually quite good. Removing the options is a slap in the face to people who JUST built them and are playing them widely in lists. GW please revert these changes and give us these options back! My Relic Sword/Relic Shield Terminator Captain is just too cool to change!
I'm kinda sad that the Termies lost the previous Fury of the First rule. I liked the whole "seen it all before" feeling it gave, as you'd expect from the super elites of the chapter. As for an army, I'd make a force around three Land Raiders with Termies in them. Don't care about what tier that'd be, I just love the image of them rolling up to throw down.
So imo, Fear Made Manifest, while expensive, is such a fun and quirky enhancement that I would love to run this in a 1st company army. The stratagems are decent too but man I just wish the detachment rule was something more consistent? I’m not quite sure what I’d make it ig but something better than that at least.
I do love that no matter what, simply because of battleshock doesn’t move over into the opponent’s turn, it’s effectively useless. They tried to make it more impactful but due to fear of having players upset at “not being able to use the unit,” they have made it underwhelming. And, yes, I do think this is the reason they made it this way because of their excuse for making physic the way it is now
I think that what makes the 1st company detachment hurt the most is you keep what you already have but lose it for 4 turns. In the few matches ive played oath has non been the reason something gets killed it just help give it a bit of insurance that attacks will get through.
I’m oldskool. The Deathwing is Terminators and Terminators only. I’m even running Sternguard in my Dark Angels right now and calling them company vets because under no circumstances should DA 1st company have any power armour whatsoever. I’m even toying with painting my Bladeguard to match the Lion’s scheme.
@@luisitobardajibenitez8013 Us old DA players can only hope. I would also like to see the Deathwing keyword have an immune to battleshock rule like they should be.
I think the problem is while it's not good enough to see competitive play, it's also not *interesting* enough to see casual play. Also Reivers have shown us for three editions that anything leaning hard into battle shock rules is doomed to be awful.
First company veterans should have some kind of 'non avoidable other than by conceding the game' grudge mechanic. These space marines have fought together for centuries, they are an elite brotherhood. At the end of each players turn, count all of your units, vehicles and characters which have been destroyed that turn. A veteran or terminator unit is counted twice. For each of them, select a veteran, character or terminator unit to receive +1 to all wound rolls and + 1 to OC for the remainder of the game. If the unit selected has already received +1 to wound rolls from this ability, it receives +1 to hit in addition. If it has already received +1 to wound and to hit, it receives +1 to all saving throws. I think that would create an interesting, 'desperate last stand' sort of feel for the detachment. Re-eneacting things like the Ultramarines vs Nids at the polar fortress, getting more and more determined as the battle goes on, and forcing your opponent to undesirably spread damage out across many units.
I hate how GW’s seeming reaction to being called out on Primaris lacking weapon diversity over FB is not to increase diversity of rules and loadouts of Primaris but instead turn FB stuff into “heirloom weapons” and other such consolidations
Feels like they tried to make a generic deathwing detachment here and kind of failed? Il wait till my dark angels codex comes out to see what improves on.
Note, the penant of rememberance is unforgiven task force detachment specific, if im not wrong, and shouldnt be available in the first company detachment i think terrifying proficiency is a nice combo for fear mademanifest, if you manage to battleshock 2-3 units and destroy D3 models each :/ also imperiums sword on a primarsi captain with a bladeguard ancient and 6 bladeguards could be pretty brutal when the captain activates his once per game ability together with the enhancement and the bladeguard ancients once per game ability, thats 6A from each bladeguard and 10A powerfist from the captain (or 11 with mastercrafted blade), seems pretty worth it
I mean, not sure if their is a rule preventing it, but if I was to borrow units from Chapter specific for a terminator squad in this detachment, I would go with the "Wolf guard battle leader in terminator armor " that give the unit lethal hits on all weapons, And he can be used as second leader, if the squad already have a e Captain or Chapter Master, and if you do they both get feel no pain 4+.
Terrifying proficiency is used at the fight phase but will trigger at your opponents command phase, so if I understand it correctly, will stop your opponent from scoring primary if they fail.
It is a nice list but I still think it would play better using the other detachment rules. FNP for the unit and Sticky Objectives are nice but does not really seem to worth having four turns without any usable Detachment rule. For myself it would be the Ballistus Dread over the Predator and would be using the ten points for the OC Enchantment for that.
Just at a glance that Fear made Manifest enhancement looks like its best used on a sanguine priest attached to Dante's squad of Jump dudes. Dante makes it a little more reliable to be effective
This is what happens when books are written more than 6 months before the meta materializes. GW's insistence on having physical material as the primary source for rules is by far the biggest holdback for game design, but I guess revenue from codex sales is just too damn sweet.
You could do some funny stuff with this, I think with the death wing command squad+terminator ancient with the OC enhancement could have like 48 oc squad there
Detachment rule All veteran units get reroll wounds 1 against oath target Sternguard boost up to full rerolls And all advance and charge rolls +1 Gives some overall movement and offensive buffs And the strats can be the defensive buffs
I've always loved the veterans, mostly Terminators and Sternguards, so I'll be playing that one with my friends for sure. Might want to use another better one for more "serious" games though indeed
What they should have honestly done is let them keep the old oath of moment and gave them all sticky but only let them select veteran units only. Add the veteran key word to more units. So your limited to what can be used in an army but at same time you are strong in the right scenario. Balances out lack of unit but sticky and reroll hit and wounds Then a upgraded strat for squad tactics to be used on two units rather than 1
I think it's really good on them, and ONLY them, the strategems are actually nuts. Deathwing Command Squad with -1 damage, The FNP Enhancement, and the ability to bring back 1 terminator per turn is crazy.
complete crackpot theory but what if Extremis Level Threat was just old Oath, like they get full rerolls on everything for that one target every round. I think it fits a 1st company's no funny business or tricks, just total annihilation of the enemy that was deemed dangerous enough that they required the best of the chapter
Honestly that crossed my mind. It still would have felt bad since everyone had it before, and you lose doctrines, but it would have been better than what we got. Or maybe give them the Sternguard rule since you took that away from them. Every Veteran unit getting some kind of merciless execution rule (maybe an additional charge and fight if you killed a unit in the fight phase) would have been brutal and more interesting than this.
I assume when DA get our codex we'll have a similar Deathwing one but I hope its slightly better than this. Wouldn't mind the unforgiven TF strats but swap one out for the orbital teleportarium.
FIRST COMPANY…. From a space wolves view I would in vision this being perfect for Logan Grimnar, Arjac Rockfist, and a field of terminator wolf guard…. Maybe a landraider and drop pods (that used to be a SW rules, wolves don’t trust teleport and would use drop pods for termies)…. What does the First Company bring for them? Not much…. A huge let down.
I mean hypothetically but it would be better in this case to target elite units as the difference between say 5 chaos terminators and 4 terminators is a lot more impactful then bumping a guardsmen squad from 10 to 9 guardsmen and while it would be a bit more difficult as their battleshock is a 6+ compared to a guardsmen 7+ but that one terminator is many times more valuable than a single guardsmen with a single guardsmen only being 6 points while a single terminator is 40 points
I don't get the veterans units aren't moved to battleline while some of the battleline units are swapped to normal units to even things out. Having 6 units of 5 terminators would be more flexible than 3 units of 10. A wasted chance to be creative within detachments. You could do something similar with certain vehicles in the fast attack detachment.
I was really hoping to do a Relictors conclave themed force with this first company. But now I’m not so sure.. terminator captains lost wargear and o can’t decide if I want chapter master Artekus Bardane to be in terminator armor or be a bladeguard..
I like the strategems but don't really like anything else. Rites of war on a Termi Ancient might be interesting. I don't see a good reason to not go all-termi. Wouldn't Dark Angels lose access to Pennant of Remembrance if using this formation?
I would say this detachment is probably the biggest disappointment in the codex. I don't think it's unusable, it just doesn't seem that fun. It has none of the support you really want to see for a elite focused list like increased OC. All it gives you is a stronger, but still weaker than the original, version of Oath of Moment. Which, by default is going to feel pretty bad. If they ever decide to revert the oath of moment change, not saying they will, I kind of hope the core rule gets a big rewrite. I think the rest is fine, basically about what you expect. But the core rule just does nothing for me, and that's the last thing you want for something like this.
Why are all the enhancements once per game only? I don't think itll be insane to make the effects permanent considering how meh the rest of the detachment is.
Probably for the same reason that some non-battle tactic stratagems are limited also to represent more of a cinematic or critical moment than them being Chuck Norris for the entire game. Then the enhancements would be "auto-include" for every army. With their current design, you could still justify not taking them.
1st company use to be the main theme of Crimson fists, for those who don't remember. Their Sternguard were the only unit to score on addition to Scouts and Tactical Squads. Thematic crimson fists were built around heavy use of veterans and scouts with almost nothing in between to reflect their numbers suffering greatly. But after Primaris reinforcement, they don't have any problems with their numbers (well unless they've already retconned that). Too bad this detachment doesn't do shit. Give all the Vets (or sternguard at least) better scoring and this just might do the trick. But let's be honest, 1st company needs terminator command squad, assault terminator and vanguard vets before it will even remotely cover all the battlefield roles. And this is the bare minimum. The 1st company is also in dire need of proper vehicles. So, they'd need Venerable Redemptor and upgrades for existing repulsors and Land and LRs, but let's be real, they won't fo this in the near future.
Sternguard were not done well: the Pyrecannon should definitely do Devastating Wounds, and the Sternguard Focus needs simply changed given 'extremis threat' overrides it...
Don't look great, don't look bad. New OoM is real sad though, played a few games with and against it, its real sad, marines don't really need reroll hits, watching all those wounds failing is heartbreaking
The more often someone has to take battle shock tests the more likely they will fail. Listening to your review of the codex, the units I recall forcing battle shock tests are: Reivers in engagemen; (also has minus one to leadership) Whirlwinds in your shooting phase (Edit:) Infernus whenever they shoot. The Battle Shock stratagem forcing a test after destroying a unit is not good by itself but if you build into forcing the test as often as possible then causing the extra roll could be worthwhile.
GW needs to re-launch 10th, there's too many areas that need fixing, so it all falls apart. Like 1st company Detachment. GW messed up with Invulns and mortal wounds, they messed up with faction specific rules, they messed up with unit's gear.
Still annoyed that my Emperor's Champion can't lead Bladeguard Veterans..... You'd think a melee heavy model can attach to a Bladeguard to really beef up the melee....
The detachment rule just sucks and feels really bad. The decision to nerf the entire rest of the codex by removing part of the army rule and giving a worse version of it to this detachment is a truly baffling one. It also just doesn’t make any sense compared to the theme of the other detachments. All the others are based off the fighting style of their respective chapters. The veterans obviously aren’t a chapter, which is already weird that they’d get a detachment, but the way they choose to represent the fighting style of the most elite marines of a given chapter is… they can reroll wounds against one target once per battle. Even if it were a better version, like not being once per game, I’d still say it sucks because I mean… what? Rerolling wounds is the only thing that makes these marines more elite? I think it’s really hard to argue that GW didn’t just add this detachment in because the Leviathan Box featured so many veteran upgrades. Which makes sense from a business standpoint I guess (except not really because wouldn’t you want the detachment you’re making purely to sell models to actually be enticing and have rules people will want to try)
Dude, I am still pissed about what they did to Vanguard Vets in the codex and even madder now that I see that they kept the heirloom weapon change. Vanguard Vets are now pigeonholed into only being worth taking in Blood Angels, which requires a substantial investment to make them usable. Also, this detachment looks awful and I was looking forward to it because I love my first company.
I gotta feeling this is supposed to mesh into other Codex's in the future? Maybe the glaring weaknesses are there because we are only seeing half of the effective detachment? Like this could slot in a propper deathwatch supliment or something.
teminator based detachment with no rule to ease the charge from deep strike. nor anything consistent enough to boost veterans damage. + oath joke. 100% fail
OTHER DETACHMENT REVIEWS HERE:
Vanguard Spearhead - ua-cam.com/video/vdT9PK_jXm8/v-deo.html
Firestorm Assault Force - ua-cam.com/video/pKJ52r41KPw/v-deo.html
Anvil Siege Force - ua-cam.com/video/PcSZrQBgIh4/v-deo.html
Ironstorm Spearhead - ua-cam.com/video/eoC1U3h6W_s/v-deo.html
Honestly, just give all veteran units sticky objectives. I feel like that’s more effective and helps convey the 1st company as that most elite group of astarted
Why not just give every unit sticky.
@@Whoknows21356cause this detachment isn’t tailored to every unit
That would have been a much more fun detachment rule. Not only is their current rule not that good, it’s such a “feels bad” rule as he says.
Take their sticky strat, give it to all veterans. Then replace that strat with some actually good / usable and you have a real detatchment.
I might try them out once cuz I own lots of veterns. Just for fun.
@Tylerjstratton i don't get why GW took a middling faction and made their army rule worse, just to then stick the original back in as a detachment rule for ONE TURN.
I can understand why it feel so bad to use. No other SM detachment has a once per game special rule.
I think you'd be hard pressed to find any other faction that has a detachment rule that is one turn only.
I totally agree. They could even let you choose 2 oath targets once per game and I'd just think it was okay. @@TheZombiemofo
If the detachment rule was using oaths twice at least it would feel less bad. Sinse both termies and sterguard vets need the oath to do their ability.
Yeah, itd be added flexibility and not just ”your killy rule gets killier once per game”.
I tried to play with Guilliman. Double oath with reroll to wound sounds great
'When making attacks against an enemy unit selected for this detachments Oath of Moment ability, any Character, Terminator, Assault Terminator, Vanguard Veteran, Sternguard Veteran or Bladeguard Veteran units in this detachment can also re-roll the wound roll.'
Fixed it.
That would be a massive improvement. Though, I would honestly still like more OC for elites or the like.
I also still just question teh change to oath to moment in general. I'm curious if it's going to stay or if it's going to get reversed.
Easy and simple solution that doesn't just make tanks and random spammy units have insane rerolls
I would be perfectly happy and content if the detachment rule gave the veteran units OC 2.
That's honestly what I expected.
OC2 terminators would be amazing.
1000000%
Sorry 10e's one page rules ethos says thats too complicated for the stupids so no fun allowed.
Let's be honest. They don't have a tactic. They have a once per game buff that does nothing before, or after it's used. Just look at the other ones to see the start contrast. Stealth and Cover for the Vanguard spearhead, All weapons getting assault and +1 str within 12 inches, permanently. All weapons getting heavy and +1 to wound, all game long. And this one? You get a one turn buff of the thing we cut out of your core rules, then sold back to you as a shitty one turn buff against one unit, for one turn.
GW really phoned it in with this one. I mean, you could have easily made it something like 'Reroll all hits and wounds against the Oath of moment target for your Veteran units only" If your concern was them building non-veteran units to abuse the old oath rules. That would at least make it usable, but then you're also hamstrung by an EXTREMELY lackluster unit lineup that can even make use of it. What, Bladeguard, Terminators, and Sternguard? I think Vanguard vets are there too, but even then there's no real variety to those units and they all tend to focus heavily on anti infantry or anti elite damage at best.
Honestly I think this whole detachment needs to be ripped apart and re-written. The other ones by comparison, while definitely not equal in power, all are at least usable all game long.
DA players, you can’t run the pennant of rememberance if you choose this detachment, it is locked to the Unforgiven Task Force
Extremis level threat should be separate from oaths. Every turn you pick one unit to be your extremis level threat and get re roll wounds against it. So you have one unit to re roll hits against and another for wounds or you can double them up on the same unit to make it old skool oaths
It would be much more impactful and adds a bit more tactical decisions
My problem with this detachment is not how powerfull it is or it isn´t. I just think is very unimaginative, the other 6 are perfect to represent the diferent fighting stiles for diferent chapters, some may be more or less powerfull but all of them interesting.
I agree. It doesn't help that they nerfed oath of moment only to bring it back in a weaker form for this detachment. It just doesn't feel good, regardless for how good or bad the rules actually are.
I could see myself using every other detachment just to try them out even if they might not be the best, the veteran detachment is just so feelsbad I refuse to touch it. if I want to run terminators I'll wait for the dark angels codex
@@ryza7760 I might try it out once or twice if I ever get enough veterans together. But I do hope they rewrite it into something more fun. At least restore the old oath of moment instead of just making it an one turn per game thing.
One slight QoL buff I'd like to see is the addition of the Veteran keyword. They could key a lot off of this, and give it to divergent units like Sanguinary Guards (who are veteran, but do not benefit from strats here)
You know. . . I kind of hope this leads to the divergent chapters not using the codex compliant rules once their codexes come out. Maybe that way, GW may get a little more aggressive/efficient with some of this stuff without trying to balance entirely too many units against it.
same, my sword brethren are missing out
We can only hope the divergent Chaptsr vets are retroactively made compatible with the detachment. I feel like Black Templars and Blood Angels would have a lot of fun with it.
The thing I don’t understand about this detachment is why it excludes things like chapter vets (Sword brethren/Sanguinary guard and so on) it could just have a keyword for vets and why things like company heroes isn’t included
Because it's vanilla codex
You don't have any information out of vanilla datasheet and rules in vanilla marines codex. Obviously.
GW: We’ve noticed that space marines are struggling quite a bit right now so we’re going to make some changes to their rules.
Players: Oh so your going to give us some buffs to help us out right?
GW: …..
Players: Right?
Even with the loss of oath 2 of the new detachments are really good. Firestorm and the tank one. And the vanguard one is good enough. The mounted one unfortunately probably only works for space wolves and maby ds ravenwing with the loss of standard bike units just not enough mounted units to make good use if it for any one else. The stand still one is not acualy bad just not good enough for competing on dense tables.
@xerty5502 they're fine but they certainly aren't "really good". SM will still struggle to kill anything other than infantry.
@@wonderfred not really plenty of ways to kill heavy stuff not as good at it as let's say aeldari but they can handle tough things decently enough gladiator Lancer, ballistis dread, repulser executioner, even the predator anihalator. All are decent enough at killing vehicles of any sort. Again they are no aeldari but they are fine. Aggressors with apothecary bilogis are no crisis suit with cyclic ion but they are solid enough. For the immediate future marines are absolutely fine if codex creep picks up as the edition goes on as it usaly does then they will be in trouble later on but for now they should be relatively healthy and balanced. Yes that means I think it is a good thing when a new codex does not make the army getting it the best at release.
@@wonderfred the detachments on paper sound good the problem in my perspective is space marines in general.
@@freddymcshreddy6586 nothing really wrong with them except they are mostly balanced un like some armies at the top aeldari for 1. You should be able to compete against most armies now not on an even keel but most battles should be winnible now. I honestly can't think of a unit that you can't kill. OK heavy infantry in cover with base 2+ saves is hellish but one of the best sourses for that is in marines, terminators. Yes marines do not have a perfect kill every thing in one shot unit aggressor combo good but not that good. So what to be frank no one should have a perfect kill everything unit that is a sign of bad balancing. Marines have great MSU and screening abilities. Scouts, inceptors,, JUMP ASSAULT INTERSORS, INCURSORS, ELIMINATORS, INFILTRATORS, PHOBOS CAPTAIN LIEUTENANT WITH COMBIWEAPON. Particuraly in the vanguard detachment but I'd good in all detachments marines have the tools to play the game. This means even if you had no ability to kill you could still score points, but marines kill things just fine. There are plenty of units that can kill tanks gladiator Lancer is solid this would be good in any list accept maby aeldari or possibly tau. Balistus dread great against most vehicles just lacking against t12 and 13 vehicles but very survivable compared to Lancer. Repulsor executioner fine overall but not enough at per point to bring in as primary at this unit does other things and is cost such that it would be foolish to ignore those after paying for it. Predator anihalator. If you discount the inbuilt reroll this honestly has more at capacity then the Lancer but with out those inbuilt rerolls it is less reliable. For anti infantry or hottest there so many options no point in even talking about them the toughest units to kill are 3 or more wound infantry with a 2+ save in cover and we still have hellblasters as a answer to those. Marines do not such they are a solid and balanced force with options depending on what type of meta you are playing against. Not the best but certainly fine
The detachment ability should be called 'Crux Terminatus', and INADDITION to the once a game re-roll wound ability, all the veteran units should get OC2.
The fnp Enhancement for terminators does give you the option of taking deploy teleport homer and just hold the centre of the board farming points. Take 10 assault terminators with shields and good luck to your opponent getting rid of 4 wound terminators with a 5++ fnp.
Okay but why not just run black templars then? That way you get a 5+fnp every turn and a 6+fnp on everything else.
@@cruelmole I'm just saying you can make it work, certainly not a great detachment but you can still win games. Not everyone plays templars!
You only get that for like one turn though, don't you?
@@Romancenturion-no3cm Sure, you can win games with anything. And I don't own a single Templar exclusive model but I've been running their detachment for months haha. Standard marine models still love a 6+ fnp
@@cruelmole Because this works on deathwing knights with -1 dmg
How are dreadnoughts considered not veterans?
Depend on the chapter
1st company shafted force
No wonder they need the other 9 companies when the first is this weak 😂
@@thehonestaspy102help us scouts. We can’t take objectives very well and we suck!
The vanguard vets with jump packs are really still around for blood angels. At thier cost, the 4++ with a sang priest 5+++ and the extra ap from the priest makes them tough and mighty. Throw Dante with a squad and a priest too. Big tough and fast with plenty of damage.
Sadly the Bladeguard ancient didn't get his own share here, if only he could double the OC of bladeguards and/or enhance the bladeguard offensive and defensive
he does though, they go to oc2 and grants a turn of plus one attacks to the unit
If only he could be armed with a 'blade'... 😅
I REALLY dislike the loss of weapon options for the Terminator Captain. Pretty much every SM player built one at the start of 10th, because they are actually quite good. Removing the options is a slap in the face to people who JUST built them and are playing them widely in lists. GW please revert these changes and give us these options back! My Relic Sword/Relic Shield Terminator Captain is just too cool to change!
Chaos players feel your pain. We've had so many toys taken away over the years
All veterans have OC2
All veterans get reroll 1 against oath target (sternguard jump to full rerolls)
And 6+ FNP army wide when on an objective
To many words. It needs to be simpler. Everything must be simplified this edition.
@@notknightbean have you read other detachments
*cough*
Gladius task force
@@notknightbean Simpler gets too easy to read, all hail 9th and all his deepness
@@Guem2856 a year ago everyone would have called us crazy for having enjoyed 9th. and now here we are.
I'm kinda sad that the Termies lost the previous Fury of the First rule. I liked the whole "seen it all before" feeling it gave, as you'd expect from the super elites of the chapter.
As for an army, I'd make a force around three Land Raiders with Termies in them. Don't care about what tier that'd be, I just love the image of them rolling up to throw down.
Make terminators battleline with this detachment. Boom.
Really should be a passive buff aswell for the detachment.
Better OC
Better or reroll battleshock
Etc etc lol
I think they need to gain something when not using the full oath. Maybe 1 CP per round for being veterans?
There should have been an awesome enhancement for an Ancient, plus a bonus buff if a Terminator Ancient!
I feel like Deathwing Knights are going to have some crazy nuts here
My brain keeps telling me that this detachment is a lot better in practice than it looks on paper. I'm gonna try it out. I've got the models for it.
So imo, Fear Made Manifest, while expensive, is such a fun and quirky enhancement that I would love to run this in a 1st company army. The stratagems are decent too but man I just wish the detachment rule was something more consistent? I’m not quite sure what I’d make it ig but something better than that at least.
I do love that no matter what, simply because of battleshock doesn’t move over into the opponent’s turn, it’s effectively useless.
They tried to make it more impactful but due to fear of having players upset at “not being able to use the unit,” they have made it underwhelming. And, yes, I do think this is the reason they made it this way because of their excuse for making physic the way it is now
I think that what makes the 1st company detachment hurt the most is you keep what you already have but lose it for 4 turns. In the few matches ive played oath has non been the reason something gets killed it just help give it a bit of insurance that attacks will get through.
I love the slight with a picture of a 2nd company bladeguard when its clear they're 1st company :P
Non-veteran units should get a buff in this detachment if within 6" of a veteran unit...that would be thematically cool!
I feel like maybe a Deathwing list could make this work. They have more Terminators to throw around and they already love Bladeguard.
I’m oldskool. The Deathwing is Terminators and Terminators only. I’m even running Sternguard in my Dark Angels right now and calling them company vets because under no circumstances should DA 1st company have any power armour whatsoever. I’m even toying with painting my Bladeguard to match the Lion’s scheme.
@@emceedoctorb3022 and game wise I wouldn't be surprised if the DA codex adds a detachment thats terminator focused and better than this.
@@luisitobardajibenitez8013 Us old DA players can only hope. I would also like to see the Deathwing keyword have an immune to battleshock rule like they should be.
@@emceedoctorb3022 I also have like 5 full terminator squads so I also can only hope
I think the problem is while it's not good enough to see competitive play, it's also not *interesting* enough to see casual play.
Also Reivers have shown us for three editions that anything leaning hard into battle shock rules is doomed to be awful.
First company veterans should have some kind of 'non avoidable other than by conceding the game' grudge mechanic. These space marines have fought together for centuries, they are an elite brotherhood.
At the end of each players turn, count all of your units, vehicles and characters which have been destroyed that turn. A veteran or terminator unit is counted twice. For each of them, select a veteran, character or terminator unit to receive +1 to all wound rolls and + 1 to OC for the remainder of the game. If the unit selected has already received +1 to wound rolls from this ability, it receives +1 to hit in addition. If it has already received +1 to wound and to hit, it receives +1 to all saving throws.
I think that would create an interesting, 'desperate last stand' sort of feel for the detachment. Re-eneacting things like the Ultramarines vs Nids at the polar fortress, getting more and more determined as the battle goes on, and forcing your opponent to undesirably spread damage out across many units.
I hate how GW’s seeming reaction to being called out on Primaris lacking weapon diversity over FB is not to increase diversity of rules and loadouts of Primaris but instead turn FB stuff into “heirloom weapons” and other such consolidations
For the Fear Made Manifest enhancement, it sounds more then worth it to keep an insane bravery
I think for me at least if OoM had always been just re-roll hits, then FCTF would look a lot better. Then it would seem like an actual buff.
Feels like they tried to make a generic deathwing detachment here and kind of failed? Il wait till my dark angels codex comes out to see what improves on.
"What if we made Deathwing without Inner Circle"?
Note, the penant of rememberance is unforgiven task force detachment specific, if im not wrong, and shouldnt be available in the first company detachment
i think terrifying proficiency is a nice combo for fear mademanifest, if you manage to battleshock 2-3 units and destroy D3 models each :/
also imperiums sword on a primarsi captain with a bladeguard ancient and 6 bladeguards could be pretty brutal when the captain activates his once per game ability together with the enhancement and the bladeguard ancients once per game ability, thats 6A from each bladeguard and 10A powerfist from the captain (or 11 with mastercrafted blade), seems pretty worth it
I mean, not sure if their is a rule preventing it, but if I was to borrow units from Chapter specific for a terminator squad in this detachment,
I would go with the "Wolf guard battle leader in terminator armor
" that give the unit lethal hits on all weapons,
And he can be used as second leader, if the squad already have a e Captain or Chapter Master, and if you do they both get feel no pain 4+.
Terrifying proficiency is used at the fight phase but will trigger at your opponents command phase, so if I understand it correctly, will stop your opponent from scoring primary if they fail.
Honestly i like it. Its not good by any means, but its fun
It is a nice list but I still think it would play better using the other detachment rules. FNP for the unit and Sticky Objectives are nice but does not really seem to worth having four turns without any usable Detachment rule.
For myself it would be the Ballistus Dread over the Predator and would be using the ten points for the OC Enchantment for that.
Maybe being able to give one standard infantry unit the veteran keyword could be nice too?
VETERAN SUPPRESSORS NEW META
My Proteus Kill Team contains both veterans and terminators, but doesn't get any love from the veteran/terminator detachment.
They could just give this detachment the buff they gave votann and quadruple the benefit and upgrade it to 4 rounds of old oath 😂
Just at a glance that Fear made Manifest enhancement looks like its best used on a sanguine priest attached to Dante's squad of Jump dudes. Dante makes it a little more reliable to be effective
Bladeguard ancient+ imperium’s sword+ oath of moment. When you really, really want something to die that turn
By far the worst detachment.. it's sad because it is built around some of the most iconic units.. it's just poo though...
Going to be really tough to beat gladius
Good to know...but the models still look epic! Gotta get a patoon!
This is what happens when books are written more than 6 months before the meta materializes. GW's insistence on having physical material as the primary source for rules is by far the biggest holdback for game design, but I guess revenue from codex sales is just too damn sweet.
This. THIS. Why in 2023 can't we have a balanced-in-real-time game? This insistence on print rules is just nonsense.
You could do some funny stuff with this, I think with the death wing command squad+terminator ancient with the OC enhancement could have like 48 oc squad there
"A detachment just for 1st company|! OMG this is going to be awe---. Oh....This is...Um...Yeah..."
Detachment rule
All veteran units get reroll wounds 1 against oath target
Sternguard boost up to full rerolls
And all advance and charge rolls +1
Gives some overall movement and offensive buffs
And the strats can be the defensive buffs
Definitely way too much. Just reroll 1s vs oath target is enough. Adding advance and charge boosts is way too much
What I never understood is that Bladeguard have gold trim shoulders. While sternguard have white trim (for the first company)
I've always loved the veterans, mostly Terminators and Sternguards, so I'll be playing that one with my friends for sure. Might want to use another better one for more "serious" games though indeed
If you have 10 dw knights with a strikemaster with the imperiums sword and then use heroes of the chapter , that would be nasty!
What they should have honestly done is let them keep the old oath of moment and gave them all sticky but only let them select veteran units only. Add the veteran key word to more units. So your limited to what can be used in an army but at same time you are strong in the right scenario. Balances out lack of unit but sticky and reroll hit and wounds
Then a upgraded strat for squad tactics to be used on two units rather than 1
As a dark angels collector this was the only detachment I was interested in
I think it's really good on them, and ONLY them, the strategems are actually nuts. Deathwing Command Squad with -1 damage, The FNP Enhancement, and the ability to bring back 1 terminator per turn is crazy.
1st Company would be good if it gave the veteran units a FNP. Sternguard and van vets die in droves, and do not feel like actual veterans
complete crackpot theory but what if Extremis Level Threat was just old Oath, like they get full rerolls on everything for that one target every round.
I think it fits a 1st company's no funny business or tricks, just total annihilation of the enemy that was deemed dangerous enough that they required the best of the chapter
Honestly that crossed my mind. It still would have felt bad since everyone had it before, and you lose doctrines, but it would have been better than what we got.
Or maybe give them the Sternguard rule since you took that away from them. Every Veteran unit getting some kind of merciless execution rule (maybe an additional charge and fight if you killed a unit in the fight phase) would have been brutal and more interesting than this.
Man I wish Deathwatch Vets worked here.
They should have made it so the whole army gets wound rerolls for 1 turn not just against the oath target
Was hoping this detachment would be more interesting, eh whatever the salamanders one fit my chapter pretty well
Are wolf guard terminators going to receive a refresh do we think? Including characters like Njal and Arjac?
I assume when DA get our codex we'll have a similar Deathwing one but I hope its slightly better than this. Wouldn't mind the unforgiven TF strats but swap one out for the orbital teleportarium.
FIRST COMPANY…. From a space wolves view I would in vision this being perfect for Logan Grimnar, Arjac Rockfist, and a field of terminator wolf guard…. Maybe a landraider and drop pods (that used to be a SW rules, wolves don’t trust teleport and would use drop pods for termies)…. What does the First Company bring for them? Not much…. A huge let down.
Njal would probably get some use out of it as well.
No wolf guard in power armour or Thunderwolf Cav in it either.
would moral be good against things like rely on Strats to function better in combat? Like does it count as Strat denial?
I think the fear one could work really well fighting a lower leadership army like tyranids or GSC maybe guard.
I mean hypothetically but it would be better in this case to target elite units as the difference between say 5 chaos terminators and 4 terminators is a lot more impactful then bumping a guardsmen squad from 10 to 9 guardsmen and while it would be a bit more difficult as their battleshock is a 6+ compared to a guardsmen 7+ but that one terminator is many times more valuable than a single guardsmen with a single guardsmen only being 6 points while a single terminator is 40 points
@@karlwes6273 valid point!
I don't get the veterans units aren't moved to battleline while some of the battleline units are swapped to normal units to even things out. Having 6 units of 5 terminators would be more flexible than 3 units of 10. A wasted chance to be creative within detachments. You could do something similar with certain vehicles in the fast attack detachment.
I was really hoping to do a Relictors conclave themed force with this first company. But now I’m not so sure.. terminator captains lost wargear and o can’t decide if I want chapter master Artekus Bardane to be in terminator armor or be a bladeguard..
Also no boost to gravis.. which is sad because the gravis captain model looks way better than the terminator one
I like the strategems but don't really like anything else.
Rites of war on a Termi Ancient might be interesting.
I don't see a good reason to not go all-termi.
Wouldn't Dark Angels lose access to Pennant of Remembrance if using this formation?
I would say this detachment is probably the biggest disappointment in the codex. I don't think it's unusable, it just doesn't seem that fun. It has none of the support you really want to see for a elite focused list like increased OC. All it gives you is a stronger, but still weaker than the original, version of Oath of Moment. Which, by default is going to feel pretty bad.
If they ever decide to revert the oath of moment change, not saying they will, I kind of hope the core rule gets a big rewrite. I think the rest is fine, basically about what you expect. But the core rule just does nothing for me, and that's the last thing you want for something like this.
No lance or additional ap in shooting nor melee Is crazy on what's supposed to be a very offensive Detachment
Why are all the enhancements once per game only? I don't think itll be insane to make the effects permanent considering how meh the rest of the detachment is.
Probably for the same reason that some non-battle tactic stratagems are limited also to represent more of a cinematic or critical moment than them being Chuck Norris for the entire game. Then the enhancements would be "auto-include" for every army. With their current design, you could still justify not taking them.
Terrifying proficiency sucks until you use it WITH fear made manifest. Knock out a unit and suddenly EVERY unit within 6 is at risk of losing models.
I am so tempted for a shield chaplain with shield termies 10 man with a fnp
1st company use to be the main theme of Crimson fists, for those who don't remember.
Their Sternguard were the only unit to score on addition to Scouts and Tactical Squads. Thematic crimson fists were built around heavy use of veterans and scouts with almost nothing in between to reflect their numbers suffering greatly. But after Primaris reinforcement, they don't have any problems with their numbers (well unless they've already retconned that).
Too bad this detachment doesn't do shit. Give all the Vets (or sternguard at least) better scoring and this just might do the trick.
But let's be honest, 1st company needs terminator command squad, assault terminator and vanguard vets before it will even remotely cover all the battlefield roles.
And this is the bare minimum.
The 1st company is also in dire need of proper vehicles. So, they'd need Venerable Redemptor and upgrades for existing repulsors and Land and LRs, but let's be real, they won't fo this in the near future.
Sternguard were not done well: the Pyrecannon should definitely do Devastating Wounds, and the Sternguard Focus needs simply changed given 'extremis threat' overrides it...
I was hoping the fear made manifest would work on vehicles/ monsters. Gw went out of their way to make this detachment simply ass.
Exactly. So that's all they will probably change.
I would like deathwatch veterans to be able to use these stratagems
Is GW releasing a new kit for vanguard vets soon?
You would think this detachment would be the best one by far, but no, that honor goes to Salamanders for now....Till they nerf it.
Don't look great, don't look bad. New OoM is real sad though, played a few games with and against it, its real sad, marines don't really need reroll hits, watching all those wounds failing is heartbreaking
The more often someone has to take battle shock tests the more likely they will fail.
Listening to your review of the codex, the units I recall forcing battle shock tests are:
Reivers in engagemen; (also has minus one to leadership)
Whirlwinds in your shooting phase
(Edit:) Infernus whenever they shoot.
The Battle Shock stratagem forcing a test after destroying a unit is not good by itself but if you build into forcing the test as often as possible then causing the extra roll could be worthwhile.
GW needs to re-launch 10th, there's too many areas that need fixing, so it all falls apart.
Like 1st company Detachment. GW messed up with Invulns and mortal wounds, they messed up with faction specific rules, they messed up with unit's gear.
Yep, 10th is a flop
Still annoyed that my Emperor's Champion can't lead Bladeguard Veterans..... You'd think a melee heavy model can attach to a Bladeguard to really beef up the melee....
The detachment rule just sucks and feels really bad. The decision to nerf the entire rest of the codex by removing part of the army rule and giving a worse version of it to this detachment is a truly baffling one.
It also just doesn’t make any sense compared to the theme of the other detachments. All the others are based off the fighting style of their respective chapters. The veterans obviously aren’t a chapter, which is already weird that they’d get a detachment, but the way they choose to represent the fighting style of the most elite marines of a given chapter is… they can reroll wounds against one target once per battle. Even if it were a better version, like not being once per game, I’d still say it sucks because I mean… what? Rerolling wounds is the only thing that makes these marines more elite?
I think it’s really hard to argue that GW didn’t just add this detachment in because the Leviathan Box featured so many veteran upgrades. Which makes sense from a business standpoint I guess (except not really because wouldn’t you want the detachment you’re making purely to sell models to actually be enticing and have rules people will want to try)
make video about ironstorm spearhead, its op
yes :v it bad you can feel it when you play agaist deathguard
I genuinely cannot think of a valid reason to use this detachment vs *every other one*.
Dude, I am still pissed about what they did to Vanguard Vets in the codex and even madder now that I see that they kept the heirloom weapon change. Vanguard Vets are now pigeonholed into only being worth taking in Blood Angels, which requires a substantial investment to make them usable. Also, this detachment looks awful and I was looking forward to it because I love my first company.
and.... what about stormlance...??? im very dissapointed...:(
I gotta feeling this is supposed to mesh into other Codex's in the future? Maybe the glaring weaknesses are there because we are only seeing half of the effective detachment? Like this could slot in a propper deathwatch supliment or something.
Pennant of remembrance is an unforgiven enhancement, so can't to it with a 1st company detachment.,
it chokes you into a style of gameplay, rather than nudges you into one, great if you love the feel and idea of it, bad if you aren't
teminator based detachment with no rule to ease the charge from deep strike. nor anything consistent enough to boost veterans damage. + oath joke. 100% fail