How Effective Was The Tsetse Mosquito's 57mm Cannon Against WWII Submarines? | DCS
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- Опубліковано 31 тра 2024
- Today we look at the Mk18 Mosquito from World War 2. A special version known as the Tsetse Mosquito was created with a Molins 57mm autocannon for anti-submarine warfare.
PATREON: / grimreapers
0:00 History
2:47 Scenario Overview
4:50 I-16 - 7.62mm
12:45 P-51 & P-47 - 12.7mm .50cal
19:56 Spitfire & FW-190 - 20mm
30:31 Tsetse Mosquito - 57mm
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I think what is being overlooked or forgotten is that while .50 or 20mm might not outright sink or critical the sub, they can still cause enough damage that a uboat might not be able to fully submerge due to damage to the outer hull.
That's what happened to the Argentine sun off shore of the South Georiga Islands in 1982
20MM AP Ammo from WWII aircraft were more than capable of crippling and absolutely sinking any Uboat, the idea that 20mm case was weak against enemy Uboats is modern Revisionist Sheepdip, Uboat hulls were never designed as Armored hulls, enough 50cal AP would also likely cripple the sub for a time needing repairs.
Once you bumped to anything greater than 20MM case the Germans wanted nothing to do with it ever on a UBoat, and that included .50 AP.
@@pappysshoes6563 20 mm is .80 caliber.
Mohlins provided the auto-loader. The gun was a Royal Ordnance Six pounder. A weapon that destroyed tanks from after 1942 to 1945.
The 20 mm had about the same penetration as the .50 cal(33 mm of steel) as they had to reduce its power so the recoil wouldnt overwhelm the aircraft so the damage should be about the same when it comes to penetration
The engineers at Polikarpov: "What if we take a cork and add wings to it? 5 rubles says it'll fly."
Some i-16s did carry 20mm cannons
Polikarpov.......see that GeeBee racing plane, hear me out, what it we make that into a fighter with retractable landing gear? 😂
Did I-16s really sound that much like lawnmowers?
I wish the game had the Seversky P-35 and the Brewster F2A ("Buffalo") fighters, because they are as barrel-like as the I-16. It was a design concept from the 1930s, the short fighter that is supposed to be extremely manuverable.
@@timbaskett6299that's actually exactly what American volunteers for the Spanish Republican Air Force thought the I-16 was (some thought it was a copy of the Boeing P-26) but it was an entirely Russian design. The "Mosca" and the Tupolev SB bomber were the best airplanes the Republicans had and were generally a match for the Me-109C/D and the very early Heinkel 111s with the stepped cockpit, but after Spain Willy Messerschmitt and the Günter brothers were able to keep improving their airplanes while Nikolai Polikarpov had already designed the I-16 in a specialist gulag for engineers and scientists and Andrei Tupolev was soon condemned to the same circumstances.
The I-16 was the most advanced fighter plane in the world when it was introduced in 1933 - retractable gear, variable pitch propeller, originally a fully enclosed cockpit before the pilots all threw it out, 234 mph top speed, extremely maneuverable even compared to contemporary biplanes, and eventually four rapid-firing guns. Unfortunately being in prison (albeit a slightly nicer prison than most of the people Stalin didn't like) is not conducive to aircraft design.
22:36 "Whilst on a combat mission to attack an enemy submarine Cap's airplane was found to have it's landing gear down. Despite the intense stress of the situation and being gravely wounded in the ego, Cap made repeated attempts to find the landing gear lever. Cap continued to expertly communicate through complaining to his flight until they could guide him to the lever's location. Cap then bravely pulled the lever and retracted the airplane's landing gear thus saving himself and his airframe. Cap's conspicuous gallantry during the maelstrom of flying slowly with landing gear down and his undaunting determination to retract said gear was an act of inspirational leadership and supreme valour. In recognition of this, Cap is awarded the Victoria Cross." 🎖
I agree! I am the hero here...
🤣🤣🤣
Love the history lessons we occasionally get! The Mosquito is one of my favorite historical aircraft.
Dark here. It is AP rounds in the 57mm. It is modeled just like another 57mm in the game. I could reduce the recoil some though.
muzzle brake or hydraulic accumulators
Take a look into the il2 version so you can see what the recoil is like if you have il2
I'd be curious to see how the Tsetse Mosquitoes would fair against some Luftwaffe captured B-17s and B-24s.
Yes@@bloviatormaximus1766
A Tsetse Mosquito actually shot down a Junkers 88 when a 57mm round literally knocked an engine out of the aircraft.
The 57mm was angled slightly downwards and so used a different gunsight. The recoil modelling may need tweaking because pilots reported the Mossie being very stable when firing the 57mm. I don’t think DCS could model the technique used in life - to aim at the water a few metres short. The round hit the surface and then proceeded almost horizontally to hit the sub below the waterline. Experienced pilots could get 7 rounds on target in one pass.
It was difficult to assess whether a sub had been killed because all the pilots saw was a sub diving. They rarely got to know whether it ever came back up again. Survivor accounts suggest that the 57mm round could penetrate right through the sub!
Amazing thanks.
FYI Richard Knapman has some original footage and pilot interviews at ua-cam.com/video/pX-IxiZyGRk/v-deo.htmlsi=Y0B_X4I0GFzLenOr
On the Spitfire/Dora run, I laughed when Cap mentioned things always going sideways. Super Cap talking about Memphis Belle the other day during that B-17 raid a little while back actually makes me think of the perfect quote for that. SNAFU, situation normal, all fucked up!! Win or lose, I love all your missions. Damn fine flying as always Grim Reapers!!
I always loved the Tsetse Mozzie! I have really been getting into it in DCS. Keep it up Cap!
Mossie pilots using the Tsetse said that when the gun fired, it slowed the aircraft down, sometimes to the point of stalling. The rate of fire sounds were for the normal cannons in ur vid. The big gun was much slower by comparison
Flying around with the gear down is equivalent to driving down the highway with your turn indicator blinking. 😂
It’s the equivalent of driving down motorway with hand brake on and brakes smoking.
"Big pair of Jugs!"
Aaaand demonetized.
Even if you're talking about a flight of Thunderbolts? 😁
GR best prons channel??
Can you do uss Iowa firing at ground targets in the gulf war. I think that is a good video that people would enjoy
Sure
Pity DCS doesn't model landscape damage...
@@wood42shed You ruined my shrubbery! 😂
@@grimreapers thanks. Have an amazing day
That would be really cool to see.
Really interesting video!, on of my buddies Granddads flew the TseTse, and my Granddad was on the team who built the prototype Mossie! Hive got a TseTse model sitting in my cupboard waiting to be built!
The first plane I thought Cap was having to pedal it like a bicycle to get it up. Fun stuff!
You need to walk the rounds into the UBoat ! - Plus the UBoat can crash dive in a bout 30 seconds.
Fascinating thx very much
Regardless of the results cap I (and I'm sure everybody else) really enjoy these videos!
Kruppstahl and Rhinemetall...good stuff
These senarios that you create like this are very entertaining. :-)
Submarine sails are quite flimsy compared with the pressure hull. At South Georgia during the Falklands war Royal Navy helicopters fired AS-12 anti-ship missiles at the Argentinian submarine Santa Fe. Several of the missiles hit and passed clean through the sail.
Yup I remember the pics.
The sail on the santa fe was a fibre glass one added when it had guppy encancemont in US service, i believe. More fits the description of a fairwater.
Another 'Sub Par' performance guys !!
I get it!
More mad thing is they put a even bigger gun on the aircraft in testing and the Germans had a 88MM mounted on a JU88
I believe it had the same problem as all ludicrously big cannons on planes where it just rattled the airframe to pieces
The biggest in service weapon mounted on the Ju-88 was the BK 7,5 (Bordkanone 75 mm) not the 88mm, it was basically a lightened automatic variant of the semi-auto PaK 40 75mm towed anti-tank gun. The Ju-88 P-5 was a paper design with a single modified 88mm, but none are believed to have ever been built.
Yes the 75mm PAK ground testing bent the prop blades & blew rivets & panels off the airframe, I guess it was partially successful on HS-129 v3 somehow
They experimented with the monstrous rocket launcher/mortar from the sturmtiger. An old JU88 airframe was fitted with this bonkers idea. First shot and the front of the air fame pretty much disintegrated. That was the end of that idea. Probably one conceived after a few too many in the bar. 😅
Recoil from the US A-10 Warthog Gatling gun is higher than the engine thrust. Pilots have to be well above stall speed before firing it.
I was entertained.❤
12:58 There was a variant of the M2 called the AN/M2 that was lighter / used a lighter barrel for aircraft use (6-800 rounds per minute) . In the P-51D-30 an onwards, they used the AN/M3 which had a rate of fire up to 1200 rounds per minute.
The Warbird videos are always the best videos
They call him "Her Kaloin" because it's short for Kapitänleutnant, i.e. Captain-Lieutenant. It was his rank in that movie (and the book it's based on).
Function captain, rank Kapitänleutnant. 😀
The auto molins was mounted right on the bow of some hunt class destroyers, operating on the east coast, as an anti e-boat armament.
very good video also the mosquito sank 7 uboats in late part of the war.
U-976 U 821 U-804, U-843 and U-1065
U-251 and U-2359
Man, those U-boots are tough!
Honestly, you guys have far too much fun doing this. This is science! Take it seriously!
🙂
Apologies.
Thyssen Krupp still does a lot of ... heavy business. It's not just kitchen stuff.
Yes i think Fly means "Krups" not Tyssen Krupp :D
I wonder how it would model 30mm AP GAU-8 rounds?
"I had some minor problems with gear ..."
P.E.B.K.A.C.!
When attacking ships with warbirds try attacking them from the bow or stern, it's easier to correct aiming error than ranging error
The 57mm was not all about sinking the submarine. It had 2 (more likely) functions: 1.) The solid armor piercing shell could penetrate into the interior of the sub and bounce all around inside the crew compartment, wreaking havoc. 2.) A solid penetration into the ballast tanks or pressure hull would prevent the sub from being able to dive, allowing for follow-up attacks with bombs or easy tracking and attacks from friendly ships. Occasionally, the 57mm shell would cause enough damage to sink the sub but, the other 2 scenarios were more likely.
Herr kaleu is short for herr kapitan lieutenant which was the rank of uboat captains
30:35 "trying not to do f22 raptor clickbait" -- yep, I have growling sidewinder muted. Those things are soooo scripted and edited yet he pretends it's not. It's actually insulting.
38:25 "we don't script the results of these" exactly. And I appreciate that.
Yes scripting appears to be the popular method but I just can't bring myself to start doing it.
There were a few ww1 Bombers i think german where they experimented with 105mm guns firing directly down.
An RCAF Bolingbrook bomber was recovered recently. What the hell is a Bolingbrook you ask? A Canadian adaptation of the Bristol Beaufort, which was used by Coastal Command on Uboat sweeps. It’d be an interesting test, if the aircraft is in DCS.
awesome
There is at least one interesting interview with someone who flew one of the 57mm Mossies. They fired solid shot, and aimed close to the waterline so the shell would enter the hull & break everything it hit inside. Apparently he hit a German 2-engined plane with the 57mm & knocked an engine right off the wing.
very entertaining
Cap you say the I-16 is using 'frikin' ak bullets' (7.62 x 39mm) where i believe it is using the full battle rifle carteridge 7.62 x 54mm a much more powerfull round as used in the mosin nagant. Still agree that its pretty useless against even light armour.
Noted.
@@grimreapers Yep, the 7.62x39mm round was only created at the end of the war (I think it was around 1945). The caliber used here was the full power 7.62x54mmR so you could use the phrase “Mosin-Nagant bullets” or “ShKAS bullets” (ShKAS was the exact machine gun used on the I-16).
Captain of germany sub (in the movie and series) is by his crew calle KaLeu, but this is not a position (alike "navigation officer" or whatever) but military/navy rank. Specifically in full KapitänLeutenant - Kaloi is the same shortening as calling sergeant "sarge". Since navy ranks are pretty confusing to me, I just estimate equivalent of KaLeu in land army somewhere in range "senior captain" - major.
You should go to the Mosquito museum over in ST Alban's it very interesting
Thanks
I rather enjoy the DH-98 Mosquito.
Due to the wooden frame, it was the first "Stealth" airplane, albeit unintentionally. One of the Mosquito's abilities was to be able to run bombing raids during the day, or for night missions, to penetrate ahead of a night bombing raid of heavier, traditional bombers, wait for the Luftwaffe pilots to scramble and take off, then literally spawn kill them. And it was fast enough due to the twin engines, and light enough due to the wood frame, that it could go in, drop a payload, and GTFO before the Luftwaffe even had a chance to intercept. And the bonus of having the DH-98 was that the construction of the airframe utilized an otherwise untapped labor(Or labour, if you don't speak Freedom Fractions) force of carpenters and other woodworking professions. I only learned about it a month or two ago, after watching The Fat Electrician do a video on it, and it has quickly become one of my favorite aircraft from WWII.
Super-Cap can't deny his membership in the "Sonderkommando Elbe" 😁
I wonder if CH could put together a buitiful P-38 Lightning. I love the Spit and Mustang, but the Lightning has a special place in my heart. It carried a Hispano M2 20mm cannon, so would be good for this challenge!
B-25H was made for anti-shipping. 75 mm Cannon plus 50 cal.
I got the 57mm mosquito in war thunder and I don't think I am hitting much with the 57. I'm not spending much time strafing ships which are a much bigger target than a pillbox or a moving tank.
I feel that this scenario needs some A-10s for, you know, science and shi.....tufff!!! 😂😂
Is there a B25 model for this DCS? the one with the 75mm tank gun?
And remember these sub pressure hulls were rounded, there are accounts of 4inch shells glancing off.
i would have thought a Uboat would be screwed by almost any airplane gun.
Most submarine sim games do it that way. The tutorials hammer into you not to fight on the surface.
It's obviously not that simple, but wonder how realistic DCS'S hitpoint system really models this. I stands to reason that it has weak points and angles, like all armored stuff.
I imagine small hits would put it out of service but not sink it.
@@grimreapersif it can't dive anymore it should be pretty much screwed
Not an expert, but the 50s in US aircraft fired API ammo, which would have sliced through a sub's hull like butter...right? It could penetrate 1 inch of rolled homogenous armor at 200 meters. Considering the rate of fire plus adding about 300 mph to the bullet's velocity (imparted by the diving aircraft), that sub would have been Swiss cheese after a couple passes and unable to submerge. I'm wondering about the damage model.
That's an inch at 200m but engagement ranges against subs by things like B-24s was typically 300m or more to avoid return fire. Also it's one inch at 90 degrees and very little of a submarine will present at that angle above the water line - you're talking at best 45 degrees. The rounds won't penetrate water to any significant depth let alone then penetrate steel. So in reality a 50 calibre round wouldn't penetrate and in WW2 they weren't expected to and were used to suppress the crew from longer range than something that 303s could achieve, that being an issue for aircraft like the Sunderland.
Coastal Command used bombs, depth charges or rockets even when they had B-24s with 50cals. On B-17s they fitted a 40mm chin gun. They didn't consider the 50 cal effective at sinking subs.
Sorry to hear you’re having trouble getting up up cap. It happens to the best of us in old age.
I bet the original 4x20mm would have done more damage
.303 roughly has 3000j energy (not courting what j you get from the incendiary. A .50 has roughly 20 000j (a P47 spits out 120 a second so 20k times 120) but a Hispano has about 50kj in jusr kinetic energy. Then add about another 45kj on chemical energy from the explosives. Thats about 95kj per shell. About 20 shells a second for the Spitfires. It's equal to about 5 sticks of dynamite a second.
Major Boom Boom
That's Lieutenant Colonel Boom Boom, now.
Indeed.
I think using the P-63 King Cobra would be a good choice with the 37MM cannon. I think that would not buck around as much and give the pilot the ability to get some penetration on the hull.
Something to consider,
M-
What? No A-10 passes for funsies? How about a little Grim Reapers competition in a Warthog and see how many U-boats one person can sink before going Winchester?
Call it "Fish in a Barrel"!
Stupid question: Is there a B25G in the collection of DCS aeropanes? That one had a 75mm manual-load artillery cannon mounted in the nose. My Dad had a hilarious story about the time he test-fired a prototype over a bombing range near Fort Riley, Kansas.
I didn't know that existed, amazing!
Yeah, they did not make many.of them. They tended to shake apart. Maybe 2 flyable types exist.
5:28 Cap: "It's me who's gonna have to crash, is it." Ah ah ah!!! And then you didn"t. BTW seeing an I-16 along with palm trees will always be weird. Keep weird, Grim Reapers.
Great video, but the secret of taking off in the Mosquito is to nose trim down and wind up engines on full break. Then leave in about half or quarter break on at low speed to use toew breaks, until air over the rudder kicks in, take breaks off. Nice straight, take off, 100% of the time.
I just find it sooo hard.
@@grimreapers just try the brake on trick at the beginning take off and see how you go.
I thought Cap killed one of the other planes when he yeeted the canopy off of his Jug.
Well they shouldn't have got in the way?
M2 were the early .50 cal, m3 came later with 50% higher rate of fire (used late in WW 2 and in Korea)
Now I wonder what a warthog would do to a U-boat 🤔
Where's Violet?
I've also been wondering
she left DCS.
What about Ju-87 G "Kanonenvogel"?
Keep in mind that a single hit from the 57mm AP round would result in a 'mission kill' of the submarine due to loss of pressure integrity. A submarine that can't dive is dead when a patrol boat or destroyer is redirected to that location.
We don't tune in to watch you crash on takeoff. We tune in to hear you say, "Okay, get another..."
lol
When do you guys play Wolf Pack? I never see it on the channel anymore?
It would be so amazing if this game had proper ASW fidos sonobuoys depth bombs/ depth charges.
How about AC-130 against U Boats??? Not sure if it's modelled in game but it would be interesting to see how the gunship would do against das boot! LoL
Rate of fire on the M3 is 1,200 RPM the M2 is between 450and 600 RPM
AN/M2 is 750 to 800rpm. M2HB (ground gun) is the rate of fire you quoted.
You forgot the Hurricane Mark IID which came with twin 40mm Bofors for anti-tank.
The 40mm on the IID were Vickers S not Bofors. They used the same ammunition design as the 2pdr Pom-Pom: 40x158mm. The Bofors used a significantly bigger 40x311mm round.
Is there a mission you could do with MiG-21? I think it looks beautiful and is really fun to fly
I completely agree, sadly not a huge calling for it.
Think the 6pounder wasn't expected to so much sink the U-boat but force it to stay surfaced and make it easier to sink by other means. That's why they switched over to rockets that oddly enough were designed for anti-armor work.....and they found the high explosive were more effective on tanks....🤷....so guess they said "Well a thing happened, but swap out rockets and press on."
Scientific experiment to test effectivness of guns - kamakaze
how about using the P38 lightning?
How about a bail-out contest, trying to parachute onto the deck of the Sub?
the 20mms fired HE in Air to Air armour piecing would have been better for a U-Boat.
The Hispanos had various beltings and the A2A belting usually included a few API-T.
thats the same gun used on the churchill tank ! < minus the autoloader>
Kapitan-Leutnant, shortened to "Kerleun", (Or however it's spelt). Equivalent to the British rank of Leiutenant-Comander. Personally, I think you should have left the Triple A on the subs! That'd reach you not to mess with the Kriegsmarine. ALSO, I really wish the subs in Silent Hunter were made out of whatever this VII C is made of!
Of course we need to know, can a GAU-8 sink a uboat?
With subs, the gun doesn't have to destroy it. Just poke enough holes to make submerging a poor decision
We have the 57mm mosquito in IL2 great battles and yeah Uboats are very much over modelled
How about with the 57 mm recoiling so dramaticallly, maybe fire shorter bursts then re-acquire target instead of continuing to fire a longer burst with sight yanked off target? Works with sub-machine guns.
Hurray!! A Fly made an appearance!!
#FlyFan
Cannon envy. When a 57mm Mosquito meets a 75mm B-25H... 0~o
lol
Where do you get the tsetse from in dcs?
Msg Dark in GR discord.
@@grimreapers excuse my igorance but how do i find you on discord?
lol were you mistaking Krupp for Krups? :)
What would a a10 or frogfoot make of these unsinkable submarines?..very enjoyable vijeo lads 😂😂
Matrix sounds like a BBC doco narrator .
Remember that the uboat has so many hit points it can shrug off a a direct 500lb bomb hit.
wow!
@@grimreapers also almost impossible to take it out with rockets doesn't matter if you use the. 25lb warhead or the AP warhead. You need a lot of rocket hits to take it down.
Even at 25-40% damage a U Boat would be operationally fucked.
Also, just SEEING aircraft which MIGHT attack them would force a U Boat to dive and render them pretty useless in getting a solution on a convoy.
80% of which crossed the Atlantic without ever coming under attack from zee U Booten.
Kriegsmarine was crap.
Why does the Mosquito wander about so much on takeoff?
1. Tailwheel, so not directionally stable on ground;
2. Both engines turn in the same direction, lots of torque;
3. Fin and rudder arguably too small; and
4. No propwash over fin/rudder, so differential braking required for directional control until rudder aerodynamically effective (~80kts).
@@grmatrix6358 Thank you
@@grmatrix6358added to all of which, the UK's long-standing "not invented here" refusal to fit tailwheel locks, US-style
@21:08
I can't say anything....lol
He said, you thought, and now demonetized...lol
The U-boats are made from Subatamimum
Where can we get this mod?
You can ask Dark in GR discord.