Is BORE AXIS a MYTH? Testing Bore axis vs. Ergonomics vs. Weight
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- Опубліковано 6 вер 2024
- In gun stores and UA-cam videos people worry about bore axis when critiquing guns so we tested it - does it offer a performance advantage?
All P320 grip modules in slow motion side by side: / 58412263
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I always find it interesting that Sigs and 1911s have the same bore axis height, but you never hear people complaining about bore axis with 1911s.
1911’s are heavier and honestly may have a less massive slide. The Sig 226 feels slow and soft recoiling to me but it recoils up. A full size 320 feels fine to me. The compact 320 feels very snappy and flippy to me. 1911’s feel like a nice quick recoil and return to target
@@K-bob_45 Might also depend on whether you're shooting 9mm in your Sigs and .45 in your 1911. I find they have quite different recoil impulses. But in general, my point is just that I think "bore axis" is much ado about nothing. Or excuse-making...
@@bsmithhammer agreed
@@bsmithhammer Bore axis can make a difference, its effect is just exaggerated a great deal. I always viewed things like frame weight vs. slide weight to make more of a difference due to Newton's First Law. It's why I like either all metal guns or the FN Five-seveN which is the only service pistol I can think of that uses extensive amounts of polymer in the slide as well, which reduces weight of the mass in motion.
Plus, low bore axis pistols tend to have worse alignment index, which is why people mention 1911s as being more "naturally pointable" than Glocks, and probably why the Sig P320 was rated as having superior ergonomics to the Glock in the MHS trial, as controversial as that might've been.
my thing with 1911 they are not reliable and then you have 8 rounds.
Guntweaks wrote a fantastic article on pistol bore axis and they talked about what they called "alignment index" as a way to measure ergonomics. Alignment index is basically how straight your grip is on the pistol, which is a more natural grip and therefore more ergonomic and naturally pointable. Low bore axis pistols tend to have poor alignment index because since the trigger and bore can't occupy the same space, making the web of your hand more aligned with one will reduce alignment with the other. When I read that article, it also made sense why I and so many others tended to point Glock pistols naturally upward and have to cant the pistol down to align the sights whereas the 1911 was much more naturally forward. Incidentally, the P320 also had nearly perfect alignment index.
And I think this video showed that ultimately, ergonomics do play a bigger factor in how well you can shoot a gun vs. solely bore axis. That and weight, which Guntweaks also made note of between the reciprocating and non-reciprocating mass. There's a reason why the relatively high bore axis 2011 still dominates competition circles so long as their grips are ergonomic and naturally pointable and the metal frame adds some weight.
My finger dam near around the frame of the Glock to reach the trigger
I agree with the Ergos being so high. I shoot my Sigs well and are usually considered high bore. The one gun I own that seems to be a little of everything is my CZ..
I own exactly as many Glocks as I own Sigs, so I have absolutely zero bias, but I still prefer Sig all day every day. It's clear Glock fanboys still haven't gotten over losing the military contract, thanks for making this video.
I was a previous owner of multiple Glocks and have carried them on duty. Probably 27 years. I purchased a Sig P320 xcompact. I had to put a compact 3.9 slide assembly on the module for duty use. I had a chance to qualify with the Sig. Beforehand, I had little experience with the 320 platform other owing a Arex Zero 1 for a short period. I was simply amazed how well the Sig behaved on my test range day before quals. I shot it just as well when I had to qualify. After all the Glock years it will take time getting used to the Sig’s higher bore axis.
i agree bore axis on paper is a valid argument but in practice i think hand fit and proper grip overall is more important. Or practice in general, if you spend time (LOT of time) on a platform and learn to shoot it well it probably doesnt matter as shown by our friend Tony who is a GM with a G26 where he can barely get more than 2 fingers on the thing and it has a 2-3 inch barrel. At the end of the day, i shoot ergonomic guns (shadow 2s) just because dangit, they are nice and i want to use nice things. Thats the whole argument summed up. and if you like to use something, probably enjoy / want to spend more time using it. i think a PVC pipe duct-taped to a 2x4 is more ergonomic than a glock and it makes me sad inside every time I handle one. my shooting times probably differ very little either way
Just look at who's won major matches with what. Max Michelle shoots a Sig, Vogel shoots a Glock, Shane Coley shoots Glock, Mason Lane shoots a Sig, the list goes on. Do people still think bore axis impacts performance???
Alot of people don't pay attention to major matches. They go by what the fudd tells them at their LGS.
@@chriscovington11 Glock has the greatest marketing program in the gun world. It's amazing. There simply is no better achievement in the gun world that created such brand loyalty. It's the Kleenex, Coca-Cola, Volkswagen Bug of the gun world.
MARKSMAN! Been binging your channel lately and loving it. This is your BEST video. Could you please do another with more guns, bring other shooters, and show/list the muzzle rise stats? That would legit be the best Guntube video on the internet with the most views. You’re welcome.
Thank you. I always feel like I learn a great deal from you. We’re so limited here in Massachusetts. The pistol in our current collection that shoots flat is a Nighthawk 1911. Our MA approved firearms list updates in January, and maybe the full size AXG Pro will become available; I’d consider that gun at 36 ounces. My wife’s go to gun is a TRP in .45 which is not a flat shooter even at about 44 ounces. Best Regards
Buy a 320 FCU and built your own.
Approved list. I can't believe that is even a thing. So sorry man.
Move
Great topic Mr. Marksman. I have experienced similar results, running more modern ergonomic pistols faster or same speed with more accuracy.
I went through the same testing with my beretta 92, cz and glock 34, beretta 92 has the highest bore axis out of all of them but the dropping locking block plus the egros for me are much better, gun shoots much softer. I have the CZ brass grips and they did make a significant difference in muzzle climb and the gun is super balanced but it still doesn't shoot as well as my 92 even though it is 10oz or so heavier.
I agree. With the Beretta 92, most of the reciprocating slide mass is underneath or parallel to the stationary barrel on the locking block too. That and the locking block system makes the Beretta 92 feel like it has less felt recoil to me even with the higher bore axis. My groupings on rapid follow up shots are just much tighter.
@@JacksonWalter735 Bingo. Where the weight is at is just as important.
@@primercast What happened to you? You still shooting glocks?
Great video. It would've been cool to see some mantis x metrics in order to have an additional kind of quantitative measure to complement power factor and your personal impressions.
I went with a CZ P-10C so I don't have to worry about either of these problems.
I get both a low bore axis and an extremely comfortable grip.
Although you can't knock the customizability of both the Glock and Sig platforms that allow you to fix any gripes you may have with a completely stick gun from both camps.
That being said my Walther PPQ has what's usually considered a high bore axis but is so comfortable to grip that I never had an issue with it.
Well if you look at 3 of the best shooters in US you will see that high bore axes didn't stop them from being the best of the the best.
JJ Racaza
Nils jonansons
Max Michel
What do they shoot ?
@@SoccerVJ2011 Beretta 92x, Canik Tp9sfx, SIG P320 MAX
@@SoccerVJ2011 Beretta 92x, Canik Tp9sfx, SIG P320 MAX
Nicely Presented, Carry On
The p320 would be a better pistol if it had a lower bore axis. It drives me crazy cause Sig has the ability design a lower bore axis p320. They proved it with the p365. Just imagine what a p320 would feel like with a low bore axis 👌
Exactly.
Are you implying the P365 is a better shooter than the P320!?? Lower bore axis does not make the gun better, it changes the way you grip, it has a more harsher angle which could make you shoot worse. Higher bore axis is better for the grip/ergonomics and if you're shooting with red dots.
Lmao did you not hear him say about the Glock “I never thought shooting this *Gee, Im glad this has a low bore angle*” and always said low bore angle sucks for ergonomics and controllability. Which it does.
Like trash
Not really. I remember shooting someone else’s P365 with a red dot and couldn’t find the dot until I realized I had to cant my hand down in an unnatural manner. Low bore axis throws off alignment index since I know have to reach downward rather than forward to get to the trigger, and since humans naturally point straight forward, a low bore axis where your hand relative to the gun is pointing downward will cause the gun to point upward.
This is why 1911/2011 guns are generally considered more pointable and ergonomic. The web of your hand aligns perfectly with the trigger and thus your natural pointing points the gun forward rather than up.
glock got popular back in the day because of its light weight and cheapness. it has nothing to do with quality or shootability or reliability as they are portraying it today.
Thank you, as always. Awesome video, with tests. Training with GBRS and seeing that they all were running P320s was when I decided to give them a shot. Thank you!!!
Another, less considered factor is that your arms are at a slightly lower angle, while holding a higher bore axis gun and may make a difference as to what portions of various muscles are more easily used to control the recoil
draw out the geometry of what you are attempting to explain here and tell me if it still makes sense to you
For me it is ergonomics, then bore axis(well idk how much is it a factor, but i do care greatly how fast does the gun recovers) and I don't care about weight that much. In fact I d rather have light gun. I think bore axis is a big factor, vp9 with good ergo and very high bore flips twice as much as my shadow system mr920.
I have switched over from shadow 2 to mr920l and go faster, score better for it. Too bad you didn't include mr920 if you still have it, i feel it has great ergo and Glock like bore axis.
I kinda have to disagree about Glock, i always felt It shoots very soft and recovers very quickly, only problem for me is strange grip angle.
Nic vid as always
This will be a lengthy post.
Honestly I thought this would be a MantisX video. Just to be clear, I’m obsessed with getting better and trying to figure out how to do that.
To give an idea of my skill level, I can do sub 2 sec bill drills from concealment. Not on demand or consistently. The problem is mostly the draw, not the shooting.
Shooting perception is very subjective. No offense to this video, but if all you shot were Sig P320s then I would think you would be better with that gun than any other. The problem is like most of us, we like to shoot a lot of different guns.
There are a lot of other factors. Slide weight makes a huge difference of eliminating dip. Spring weight can help with that also, but in my opinion you should have the highest spring weight possible while still avoiding dip. Technique is probably the biggest factor.
Recently I have been using the MantisX quite a bit. Specifically the muzzle rise feature. This tells us everything we need to know about how to eliminate muzzle flip and bobble/dip. The data has been quite eye opening and will vary with person to person.
First off, virtually every high level/highest respected instructors say to have slightly bent elbows. For me, slightly is quite literal. Hard to explain. Most people have their elbows bent more than slightly like The Humble Marskman (sorry, don’t remember your name right now). I often video tape myself in slow motion. Lately I’ve had more dip/bobble than I would like. Well I went back to having my arms almost straight (the Bob Vogel grip). The dip is gone or almost completely gone with every gun I shoot. Plus MantisX also showed this. With the P320, muzzle rise went down about 3*.
So let’s get into the MantisX. I own a lot of guns and this is going to make a lot of people cry and bitch. The guns that have the least muzzle rise for me are Springfield XDMs and a Mod.2. Yup, beating out multiple Glocks, steyr m9, cz P10s, HK VP9, Sig P320 (with various grip combos including the tungsten grip), canik Tp9, and a few others. I typically get 3.6-4* of muzzle rise. With or without a compensator. So far, I have seen no difference with comps. They do reduce a lot of felt recoil which will improve consistency and theoretically get you back on target faster, but I haven’t shot better bill drills with comps.
I just bought the tungsten grip. I did one of those builds with the compensator on a compact slide with the full-size grip. Total weight with empty mag for me was 40.3oz. The lowest 5 shot muzzle rise ave I got was 6.62*. A month before that with the non infused grip with the grip weight I got a 5.57* 5 shot ave. So the added weight did nothing for me, however the gun was more controllable at speed with the extra weight.
Another thing I’ve been doing is comparing how easy it is to track the dot. I’m limited to how many guns I have tried dots on. I’m currently putting one on my 3.8” XDM. So far, shorter barrel guns track better. I have a Glock 26 w/comp that is pretty much my gold standard right now. The P320 with or without a grip weight has about twice the movement as the 26 and with the tungsten grip is still about 1/4 more. The Canik and Steyr come close and are very compatible without compensators even. My 4,5” XDM is not well balanced. I think it would need slide cuts to balance out. Has about the same dot movement as the tungsten 320. It will be interesting to see how the 3.8” XDM will fair. I’m thinking much better.
Anyway, I could go on. Get your MantisX out and use the muzzle rise feature. I think different guns with different people will always vary. Is bore axis a factor? Well everything is. The fact championships have been won with that platform would say bore axis isn’t a major factor.
Thanks for reading
I like balance, trigger, slide mass and not a high bore axis for the optic. I set up my 34 for me to be accurate. The trigger job helped as well. I am considering Shadow Systems for a 17 with a lot of modifications for me.
I've been shooting Glocks since 2006 .
About 2.5 Months ago I switched from my Shadow Systems to X5 LEGION for 2Gun .
I can shoot my Glock Pattern Faster but I have way more control with P320 TXG.
I suspect I can shoot the Shadow Systems faster because the reset of TRIGGER springs my finger forward . I would imagine couple more months of shooting X5 LEGION exclusively I will be faster with TXG .
I cannot explain how and why the X5 LEGION just tracks really well and how easy it is to shoot .
I've tried CZs and 2011s and ultimately I'm way more comfortable with Striker Fired . i would imagine once i get better at Carry Optics or 2Gun that might change . then again it took me 15 years to switch from Glock pattern so it might be doubtful. Shadow Systems & P320 TXG are the only pistols I'm gonna be shooting for the time being .
I'm way more focused on 2Gun right now but over the summer I do wanna start shooting 1 2GUN and 1 Carry OPTICS Match monthly . I shoot non Sanctioned matches right now. once I get better I'll start shooting Sanctioned.
I 1000% agree with your findings
Low bore axis does matter but a good shooter will have a decent follow through. It's the same as Jerry Miculek on target with a revolver. A lot of poor shooters will have reactive interference and let go of the gun or loosen their grip during recoil.
A great design for a gun will lower the bore axis so it's easier to shoot and when you're trying to trim tens of a second per shot to be competitive, it does matter. Gun designers can cheat by adding steel to the frame but it's slow in the transitions. Higher than forty ounces is too slow. A good weight for a gun is between 35 and forty ounces.
The good designs are the Archon B, the Armory Firearms Strike One and the Rock Island 5.0. Good designs and none cheat with heavy steel frames. CZs hinted about this with a inside slide so body parts aren't slowing the movement
A good design is easier to shoot and doesn't take thousands of rounds to learn to control.
Low bore axis does matter just like a good trigger. Yes, there are revolvers with a high bore axis and eight pound triggers but there is only one Jerry Miculek or Bob Munden.
I put the lok brass grips on my shadow 2 thanks to your videos on them before. They are so aggressive and the balance is great. This was a video video. Thank you!
Started shooting being shown Glocks n just felt weird...dunno how people bother getting good with em. Picked up a p226 n it felt natural n been shooting SIGs since
Thanks David! I always appreciate your videos!
One of the top two or three gun reviewers with a million plus followers reviewed Walther PPQ, and loved to talk about its “high bore axis”. PPQ bore axis 1.53”. On the Beretta APX review he loved to talk about the APX’s “low bore axis”. Beretta APX bore axis 1.52”. Can the PPQ be a bit snappy? I guess, yeah, it has more to do with it’s recoil spring being oversprung, comfortable grip causes people to be a little to lax in how they grip the pistol, especially with their ring and pinky fingers, and it’s a lighter pistol. Doesn’t surprise me that it’s talked about so much since a lot of gun guys are sheep who are incapable of independent thought. Thanks for the content!
Over-sprung will have less felt recoil not more. The slide won’t hit the frame as hard with a heavier spring, but it will with a lighter one. In other words, less resistance means a more violent slide movement.
PPQ shooting horribly has more to do with the slide's center of mass and a short grip that is almost completely slick. Some grip tape or stippling would immediately solve the problem. Similarly, g17 only shot like shit in this video because the he didn't have stippling or grip tape.
my BEST shooting hand gun i have had is the CZ P09. its the best in hand and the best firing. for me
Who would’ve thought that bore axis was an insanely overstated fault that people cry too much about? Oh yea…people that actually shoot a lot
Appreciate your taking the time to dispel the notion that low bore axis makes as much difference as ergos /weight/balance.
I tested with the same guns (axg substituted with tanfoglio stock 3) and was unable to replicate the results, but I had grip tape on all plastic guns and aggressive panels on the tanfo. In my opinion having glock's slick surface competing against stippled/aggressive grip panels is unfair. G17 achieved the highest hit factor and p320 x series achieved the lowest hit factor. In terms of familiarity, I am most familiar with the stock 3, followed by g17, and lastly p320. Overall I think grip friction has more influence than anything else when it comes to recoil management.
This is just a cursory observation, but I did notice that when you were comparing slow mo between the polymer frame and the metal frame at the start, the metal frame had noticeably less recoil.
Would be cool to see the low axis/good ergos MR920 included in that stack
Exactly. All those are improved P320 and not stock. You can definitely control stock glock better than stock P320 :)
MR920 and OZ9 are milking more from lower bore axis and would be more fair test.
@@Atilakus I own both and I control the stock p320 with the ugly original grip over my stock glock. everyone is different. :)
Of course now I run an XCarry grip on my P320 and it's much better. If only I could switch my glock's grip to that shadow systems style grip like I could with the P320.
@@EOTechN9ne I was not defending glock in general. It was more about validity of the test.
Bad ergo and low bore might be worse than good ergo and higher bore.
But when you have low bore and good ergo it is still better.
Like ofc in the end how you could perform with the gun is ultimate but its still fun to talk about all the details and from physics stand point bore axis plays very important role :)
If you dont believe it try Laugo Alien .
Very interesting. Thank you! I respect your opinion, as I am new to pistol shooting about 4 years. And new shooter in IDPA, 6 months. Novice class-in SSP, marksman in CCP.
I love SIG, Glock, CZ among others. I shoot my high bore axis P320 and P226 better than my Glocks and CZs(except my shadow 2). If your grip and stance are good its all about what fits you best imo.
I’ve found that ergos and traction are far and a way superior than any benefits that low bore axis will give you. Furthermore, how much muzzle flip and dip doesn’t generally bother me nearly as much as my ability to get the the front sight to come back to center in the recoil arc.
If you train with what you have it doesn’t matter
Lets be honest, P320s are awesome! Glock is a block a reliable block, but Sig is reliable too, Sig is not a block.😂
You missed the opportunity to upset the CZ crowd by pointing out that the slide isn't shorter, it's just hiding.
Shouldn’t have missed that opportunity
Is that a secret that only a few chosen ones are enlightened by?
I enjoyed your video, but I think there was a lack of low bore axis representation in it, with a heavy polymer and alloy frame missing. It would have been nice to see a CZ 75 series to give a balance to the high bore axis Sigs you used. Thanks for the video David!
Glad you did this video. There is a lot of gun information out there but your content is the best.
Superior work once again. I’m so grateful for the continual helpful info and that I know you.
Likewise Keith
Very good. I compare lighter pistols in realistic cqb drills. Most will indeed shoot 28 ounce pistols better than 21 ounce micro 9mm....enough to make significant difference? So if you're going up In weight for carry to 35 ounces loaded...a good shooter can shoot .40 or. 45 just about as well as 9mm in short ccw distances & drills. Also, even for competition I think many prefer a 32 ounce unloaded pistol to 40 ounces just for feel of control and transitions no?
That is some really valuable insight, great SNR on this and all videos - definitely a high value and under appreciated channel by sub count!
Excellent comparison! Very thorough and conclusions were spot on. No bias or preference. Weight & mass versus borax. Nice!!
I have shot the Glock 34 Gen5, Sig P320 X Series, Canik Rival, Walther Q5. For me surprisingly, I shot better with the Glock 34. It felt the best in my hand and I got better scores than the other guns, despite the other guns having better triggers. I have since added a Timney trigger and now I like it even more.
This is why I tell new shooters to actually shoot all the guns that are interested in. If you're in a shooting club, it's easy to try out different guns before you buy.
Do not get a gun just because other people on UA-cam say it's the better gun. I made a mistake on buying the Canik Rival without first trying it out, because of all the rave reviews on UA-cam. I prefer the Glock 34 better. So I'm in the process of selling my Canik Rival. Same for my previous Walther Q5. I didn't like it and sold it. And I tried my friends Sig P320 X Series and I really didn't like the way it felt in my hand when shooting it.
So a gun that's great for one person may not be great for another person.
And the human factors side of the argument. Retired Army, I shot the issued 1911 and the M9 once it came into service. I hated the M9 because of the awkwardly, insanely high bore axis. When raising the gun it is very difficult to come onto target naturally. I prefer Glocks because of their low bore axis and natural pointability. They just come up on target with no adjustment, whereas with any high-bore I come up too high and then have to come back down again. I realize this is all subjective and personal. Shoot what works for you.
Great video! On my shadow 2, just swapping the aluminum grips it comes with for aggressive loc palmswells a few years ago made a HUGE difference. Also, I changed to shooting with gloves, made a huge difference. I shoot 3 gun mostly but use uspsa for pistol practice.
You’re looking very Downtown Dallas when you go to the range these days 😎
I dress fancy at work
Would love to see you do this test with the Alien Pistol. It has the lowest bore access of any handgun. May actually be more likely to have too much dip during a firing sequence....
Great video, always informative and helpful!
This info and testing lines up well with the comparison video by Lucas at Trex with the 320, Glock and m&p
The only way I thought this video would be better is if you had an M&P or a CZ P10 so we could get excellent ergos and a low bore axis. Thanks.
People are gonna explode after watching this lol ...
The Laugo Arms "Alien" pistol would be perfect for low bore axis comparison!
Great videos man, all the best from Portugal.
Great video! I just found your channel recently after watching your TP9 SFX video. I’m glad I did! Keep up the great work, brother.
This is a prime example of his best videos - well demonstrated & clearly explained
In the 90's, Gun Tests Magazine told me the EAA Witness had great ergos and coming from a P85, I had to agree! 😂 So yeah, it's ergos (and weight) for me.
Ergos and trigger alignment index definitely can trump low bore axis . IMO , the tungsten infused TGX is more comfortable to shoot and has a slightly more natural POA than the AXG . Talon tape on the TGX closes the traction gap between it and the AXG. I’ve added an Armory craft extended takedown lever and a Springer Precision extended paddle mag release on to my FS TGX P320 build and , for me , all the ergos of this set up are perfect.
Of course note axis makes a difference. High bore axis can be overcome, of course. But it can be surprising when moving form one platform to another. Shoot a few hundred rounds through a CZ P-10 and then move to a P320. Big difference.
Can't argue with physics
I like low bore axis.
I don’t like SIGs because of the high bore axis. But I like 2011s. Like CZ75s, not a fan of glocks.
So maybe bore axis isn’t my problem. I just don’t like certain guns.
What about a S&W frame with a low bore axis? I don't like Glocks much due to the grip angle. I do like S&W grips. Would that be better off a test in your opinion?
Same experience as you bro! Your videos and channel deserves wayyyy more views
Glad you think so!
Great video, and thank you for going so deep in the bro science.
Love it man!
I’m currently trying to decide between a plastic or steel framed Canik Rival, and if the extra cost is really worth it to someone like me. No doubt steel would be awesome. But using your examples on the 320 models we’re talking maybe .30 seconds improvement on these drills, which is significant for someone like you, not so much to so much to someone like me for an extra $400 difference in my considerations.
Bro Science for the win, thanks!
If the steel frame is reachable based on your finances - I would go that way. It will raise the skill floor some but maybe not the ceiling
@@TheHumbleMarksman it’s reachable, but when I consider still needing to buy an optic, extra mags, holster, etc I’m looking at a lot of money. This gun would be primarily home defense, maybe competing some day. I don’t even know that I’d use for classes.
I also fit right in that middle ground of not a competitor but also not a static 10 yard range guy. Fortunately I’m in no rush, so who knows.
I don’t watch a ton of vids like this on UA-cam but when searching specific content there’s only a few guys I pay attention to and you’re one of them.
Thanks!
for your use you'd be happy with the poly frame.
Well the Rhino revolver should prove something on this matter
That “stand by “ and the the timer goes off gets me drawing for a non existent gun at me side
This was an interesting video for sure well done thanks for doing it
Interesting video that confirms much of what makes sense...grip is king and the better your comfort level and grip (ergonomics) the better you will shoot. One recommendation from a scientific standpoint: randomize the order in which you shoot the guns so you can avoid bias by always shooting the guns in the same order and avoid confirmation bias.
Very helpful info & perspective. Thank you.
Another informative video. Thank you sir!
Or in short, if gun is brick, brick no shooty well.
I'm sure a heavily modified Glock frame or a Laugo Alien in there would've changed the results quite a bit.
The Walther/Canik system offers great ergo and trigger with high bore axis, the P320 family great ergo, ok trigger and high bore axis, the CZs and Laugos offer great trigger, ergos and low bore axis, and the Glock has horrible ergonoimics, horrible trigger and low bore axis. A Glock should be modified or changed for a CZ P10 asap.
Glock doesn't need heavy modification, a simple grip tape fixes the friction problem. I honestly don't know why people bash glock so much, when gen 5 has some of the biggest magwells and above average trigger. It's a really capable gun for competitive shooters who don't want to bother with gunsmithing
i like everything you said but 1 other thing to consider about shooting accuratly is the trigger.
I like the heavier guns. They’re easier to control the recoil .
Nice video. I used to drink from the low bore axis fountain, but my experience with my P320 AXG and also putting that FCU and slide with a polymer X-series frame has changed my mind.
I do find it interesting that you used an objective scoring system and even though the TXG won you still preferred the AXG because subjectively you “felt more in control”. The scores between the two were very close so it’s not like the score wasn’t an indicator, but I think regardless of how you do this there is always a subjective element that will vary person to person.
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Thank you so much for this video!!!! I 100% agree with you on this topic and your reasoning behind it. I am actually quite tired of the BS of "I can't shoot this gun(insert gun model here) that well because of the high bore axis". It's about time someone finally cleared the BS from the Land of BS...
With P320s taking over, does it mean glock is dead as far as competition?!
Also high bore axis negates the dip a bit witch i think is better
Form1 the handgun as a SBR and add a VFG.
These are fantastic data points David.
I had an epiphany inspired by your competition shooter interview videos about how to lock your wrists, as it was a topic that alluded me, and I finally figured it out. I'm amazed at how much easier it is to consistently land shots under recoil. Tried it on my M&P 2.0 and it's 1911 grip angle I feel helps with the return.
That being said, how do you think grip angle has to factor into your results?
I would like to have seen you shoot a low bore axis gun with good/great ergonomics like one of the CZ's or other brand to compare to others you shot
Strike One coming in soon so we may revisit this
Thanks for the video. I learned something here.
Laugo Arms Alien...All of a sudden, I really need to know what this guy would think about that pistol.
Exactly, it's really quite simple every action has an equal and opposite reaction the only reason the 320 did better is because of the beaver tail which is just a lever, bore axis absolutely does matter he just doesn't know what he's talking about
I think another important factor is are you using factory or reloads and what grain bullets?
As usual, valuable input. Thanks David.
I noticed low bore axis makes the pistol twist vs rise rise is more controllable the twist of low bore axis is weird to me
Bore axis is not a myth. Its called Negative Leverage working against your grip. You have more leverage swinging a hammer with a longer handle so the further away your grip is the guns recoil has leverage working with it against your grip.
I'm not a competition shooter. I've been a pistol enthusiast for many years and shoot often. Sig has been a favorite for awhile. They're criticized because of the bore axis. Never been a problem. A p226, 229 or a 320. I'm good to go!
Would have been nice if you had used the MR920 without a comp instead of the stock Glock 17. Would have been a more apples to apples comparision because those Sigs are by no means "baseline".
All this taught me is that a pimped out 320 is better than a stock 17.
You aren’t understanding what’s being tested if you think the parts is what’s making the gun return
Great info! Thanks
Wicked great video guy
Did you have the tungsten weight in the TXG? Mine weighs right at 40 ounces.
Man, so excited for this. Thank you!!!
In relation to muzzle rise and dip as it relates to grip, the support hand and knuckle under the trigger guard pivot point. Is anyone experimenting with weapon mounted light by holding the light? It would seem that the higher and much farther forward grip of the support hand on the weapon mounted light would reduce both muzzle rise and dip. Maybe for another edition of Bro Science for muzzle rise or dip control.
I really like the Bro science videos please keep doing them. It would have been nice to see a low bore axis gun that had a metal frame and variations in weight so the comparison was broader. Since grip angle and ergos played such a significant role maybe using a S&W M&P or other low bore axis gun that has better ergos and/or more upright grip angle may have resulted in more fair comparison. Granted you have limited time, guns available etc... Keep up the excellent work and reviews. I will become a Patreon supporter because of the quality and type of stuff you put out and I am a defensive focused shooter not competition at all but so much helps understanding.
@@c3bhm you missed the point completely
I'm surprised to not see complaints and death threats from the Glock fan boys. I have always made comments to my gun friends that I couldn't shoot a Glock good at all. Now I understand why
I wish you could have got your hands on a Laugo Alien to truly test this bore axis thing. But i think that overall ergo’s are the most important, which is why the 1911/2011 is so easy to shoot!!!
Check out honest Outlaw who just completed his 1000 round review. Very insightful
That or a Steyr M9 A2 if you want something more affordable with probably the lowest bore axis on a more traditional pistol.
Great information. Very well done videos on your channel. I recently hit the subscribe button and look forward to more from you.
Wow! Great info. Thx