The Most Dysfunctional Mechanic in SSBM
Вставка
- Опубліковано 4 вер 2024
- SSBM’s dash back out of crouch mechanic is severely flawed for two reasons. This mechanic needs not one, but two software fixes in order to be performed consistently.
Edit: Friction when rolling the analog stick along the bottom of the rim is yet another factor that disrupts DBOOC X (5:00).
/ ssbmhax
b0xx.com
I never thought I would need to know how to find the arc of a curve, but Hax has proven me wrong
10/10 comment
Calc II baby
@@glubstubs There is no calc ii in this video lol.
@@glubstubs more like 9th grade geometry, but calc ii is useful as well
I forgot we were talking about melee
This video continues Hax$’s long running winning streak
Dash Back out of crouch is the reason I am getting the Goomwave
More like a Coomwave Am I right?
@@blackghostcat more like groomwave
New rapper name:
The Notorious Dash Back Out of Crouch X
Lil' Dashback X - Out of Crouch III
These are fantastic. Just be aware that the rapper name JC Shine is already claimed by Altimor.
I'm slowly beginning to think Hax really could've solve world hunger or cured cancer if he didnt play melee 😂
Gamers should put their minds to other things. And it’s not to say that they should stop playing games.
I legitimately feel like im in a college course watching this.
College kids brains would melt if they had to watch this, unless of course they play melee
Ha!
@@NoBigDealMedia hello lmao
I don’t think there’s anyone in the world who loves Melee more than Hax
This has to be the most elaborate jon to ever be created
I honestly feel like the goomwave does too much to controllers. All of those features it provides should just be in the game. Anyone with a goomwave is going to have a huge advantage over people who dont
this
I just want a goomewave in order to have a long life controller lmao. But I agree that it would be better just to fix issues on Ucf so melee wont turn into a "pay controller to win" game
Literally p2w. I'm just a student trying to get by and work on the side. I can't drop 300-400 bucks on a controller. Like I'm not that good with the game but there are definitely a good number of times where I missed something BECAUSE of the my non goomewave controller.
Lmao competitive people tend to have the best equipment
@@Puffzilla777 right but this is something that can be added to the game itself, instead we're going to charge people 100's of dollars for quality of life improvements. Things like notches or trigger/facebutton mods are one thing, but i think adding controller specific software to the mix will lead to issues down the road. Obviously top level players are all going to have a goomwave so its not an issue there, but for people like me who just play in smaller tournaments and online, its gonna be annoying af whenever some kid whos mom bought them the goomwave is playing on another level because they have a way better controller.
The only issues I have about 1.03 is the puff airtime limit and the removal of wispy and Shyguys. The airtime limit is a terrible rule that would never even be attempted for any other character. A puff player can play an interactive game of melee almost entirely in the air. There is no value that can meaningfully prevent stalling that doesn't force the puff to play in a specific way. The new Stage Modifications I find less egregious than the airtime limit. Setting the Shyguys to a timer I would find preferable than removing entirely, but if that is impossible then I am for removing them. I am also in favor of setting Wispy to a timer, however if impossible then I would prefer to keep Wispy in the game.
Every other change in 1.03 is great stuff that should of been done years ago. Good Shit Hax
I hadn’t thought of this idea. I like it. If you set Whispy and Shy Guys to a clean (multiple of 10s) timer, it can be another way to help fix this
Wispy and shy guys are ver fun, thats why its a different stage
I disagree that wispy should remain if not able to be put on a timer. The rng makes the mechanic feel unfair in a number of circumstances.but besides that I agree in entirety.
I believe that the airtime and ledge grab limit rules ONLY apply when the game goes to timeout. If they really are interactive, they will still get the W.
As a falcon main, this is my biggest problem with the current iteration of ucf, I will definitely be ordering 1.03.
I agree, I've always thought DBOOC was too difficult to perform consistently and I think you've done a good job explaining why, and in addition how to fix it. I'll probably be using 1.03 at locals when it releases, I appreciate the work you're doing.
I hope no one took the slippi name "DashbackOutOfCrouchX" yet
Fantastic. This is what I like seeing from hax
3 red pixels, 3, three, tri, Dark Triad confirmed (jk love your stuff keep it up)
I will call these "the dark triad of coordinates." Thanks.
Half life 3 confirmed
Hax is treated so unfairly. He spents his whole life trying to improve the melee community and gets banned in return
Treating our most passionate members like dirt isn't good for the longevity of the game either. Free Hax
@@myb5558 yeah man the big melee community members sold out to the big organizations and people who make them the most money and exposure like leffen
I agree that 1.03 is great, and underrated by members of the Melee community. But what he did with Leffen wasn’t cool, so it may take a few more months before he’s totally back in the fold
Please remember that in his crazed obsession with trying to defame leffen over the metagame documentary he tried to put zero on a pedestal to in an attempt to make leffen look bad. What leffen said wasnt a lie, zero was sharing round pedo/questionable hentai pics in his hotel and leffen never made a yes or no on the topic. Only he had seen that happening and he believed it could be true. After 3 days of denying zero then came out and admitted he was a pedo only proving what leffen said to be entirely true.
I think the videos hax makes about melee mechanics are great and that 1.03 is a great addition. But he definitely deserves atleast a 1 year ban to come to terms with what he did. His apology wasn't sincere and he only apologized for "dividing the community". Not to leffen for trying to defame him and cause all the hate that leffen continues to get today. Look on hax's twitter at all the people who still believe leffen is some puppet master controlling people from the shadows.
@@fux237 clearly hax.
Hax$ has contributed more to this game than Sakurai
that's really not saying much
This kinda reminds me how street fighter 1 has no leniency on motion inputs.
Either hit right with no mistakes or fail
Negative edging them works almost all the time for some reason
Spittin
how can you decide a man to be spittin within 30 seconds
@@williamomalley6081 he spittin
can confirm he indeed was spittin.
/spit
Spit.exe
I agree with most of the 1f-->2f changes, but I don't agree with this 2f-->3f change. With the 1f window, you are never guaranteed to succeed, no matter how fast you input, due to polling uncertainty. With the 2f input, as long as you make the full motion within 1/60sec, it is guaranteed to succeed. Dash-back-out-of-crouch is harder, yes, but it is still guaranteed if you do it fast enough. It's only "inconsistent" because of human limitations, not due to game limitations, similar to how multishining is "inconsistent" (after the polling drift fix). I don't think we need to patch human limitations, only game code limitations.
Depends on what we want the moves accessibility to be. If we want multishines to be difficult challenges that grant great power at the risk of being dropped by your mistake, its fine for them to be inconsistent. If we want dash-back-out-of-crouch to be a defensive get-up option available to the player whenever they may need it and there is no particular benefit to having it not happen due to human error, then the human limitation may as well be considered a game code limitation.
Dash dance grab … your ass.
Good vid. Love your dedication bro.
We need BOXX tutorial vids!
This is great, as a Marth main I would really benefit from this. I think that the release of 1.03 may be a bit rushed, although I'd love to be proven wrong. Great work Hax.
Let’s have meaningful discussion in the community instead of brushing it off. Some of these mods can definitely change the future of melee for the better.
Tell that to the reddit and Twitter wokemob
comment for the YT algorithm. thanks Hax!!!!
Hax$ pumping out the content damn
Another nice and informative MeleeSMR video, Hax$ 👍
You should provide a toggle for stage hazards as well. I believe it is right for you to do so, but it is also in your own best interest. Doing all these unilateral changes is gonna hurt your already damaged reputation.
Hax vs Toph in Who wants to be a Meleeonaire / Melee Jeapordy when?
Love them both, but toph might be busy licking Leffens boots like the rest of the prominent figures in the community.
@@lucalyons-sosa9843 - The difference between Toph and a lot of others is that Toph still actively puts respect on Hax's name.
whenever I use Dash back OoC i always move my analog stick in the opposite direction slightly first so I can get more speed and consistently hit the 2f x window, the Y however definitely needs to be fixed
Is it possible to only freeze specific ps transformations? I personally am a big fan of both the water and grass transformations.
I believe the 20XX hack pack has the transformations available.
I would play entire sets on the grass transformation.
Keep winning, Hax
I can get behind the DBOoC Y fix b/c it's a potential polling inconsistency, but unless you can reasonably prove DBOoC X is inherently inconsistent for human execution with a 2 frame window I don't support this change (where exactly did you get/formulate that 80% figure?). Seems like a very slippery slope of execution removal we're going down with something like this.
I think what Hax is saying could definitely be true, but I’d like to see his measurements for 2-frame being unreasonable
Ive got to get my hands on a copy of this
Makes sense I think
Love u hax
What about pivoting? Isn't that controller dependent? I've heard zain talk about how pivoting is easy for him due to his controller, and I believe the reason m2k never used pivots, is because of inconsistencies with controllers, would it be necessary to make that a 2f input?
This ^
FREE HAXMONEY
hey, i would be really interested, in what mesures you took to make it available for tourneys, since, ucf is mainly acailable because TO's dont have to fear a c&d since you basically cant tell wether or not ucf is active
since it’s just a memory card, and UCF is already doing something similar, just don’t point the camera at the gamecube.
Appletank8 the modified stage select screen on 1.03 indicates that it’s a modded version of the game. Among other things I assume
@@UA-camuser797
It’s software, if they want to use it for real, someone could likely make it invisible.
This is amazing!!!!
If you're calling it Melee 1.03 then you should patch known bugs. Like Luigi's and Roy's dash attack, G&W, Pokémon Stadium hole in transformation etc.
I see where you're coming from, but we really have to go from What would most widely be accepted by the community and what improves the game while still keeping it the same game. If you propose changes like this, it starts to take the experience just slightly beyond what vanilla melee has, which then leads to great hesitation in community-wide acceptance of the mod.
PS-Technically they did fix Pokemon Stadium by keeping the fire transformation from showing up.
@@Pslamist In Europe some tournaments use sometimes PAL, other times NTSC, no big deal for the players. The bugs only make low tiers a little bit relevant without touching top tiers.
Neat analysis video! Thanks for uploading!
LFG
Is wiggle out of tumble a real thing? I thought it wasn't
Yup. One input in each direction gets you out of tumble but it has to be after hit stun and knockback are over. In other words, tumble has to actually start.
oh wait yeah it was hitstun that didn't work
kadano has some really good videos on these mechanics on youtube. i always forget about the wiggle
@@Rael0505 What do you gain from wiggling out of tumble? If you can give me a summary that'd be nice, but if you're on a time strain then I'd love a link to the video. Cheers
@@sergiomarucci From my understanding (which granted, is not much compared to Kadano), the biggest benefit from wiggling out of tumble is that you can land without being put into a tech situation or committing to either an aerial or airdodge.
You don't lose meaningful time by walking forward to get out of crouch then dash back imo. It's not even visible. If you are facing the right do one of these ↩️ except upside down
what about wavedash back out of shine though
Man now I have no mix up on sheik down throw except sdi rolling behind her has saved me so much
I just wanted to comment on the proposed new shieldrop ranges and question how its possible to spotdodge on a platform with the fix. Like, there aren't many situations where you'd want to, but it seems to be removed as an option with the proposed changes to shieldropping. As well as angling your shield downward to protect against potential shield pokes
If you notice the only values that give shield drop are highlighted in green. That means that pressing down anywhere in the middle gray box will still give spotdodge and not a shield drop.
As for shield angling, again only the green values give a shield drop. You can still angle your shield as much as you could previously without spot dodging or shield dropping.
Essentially what this does is trade some very edge angles that would normally give spotdodge and make them give shield drop instead. However you still have the whole center and everything except the bottom edge to give spot dodge if you want to.
Or y'all could switch to a b0xx controller
🤝
Seems like your DBOOC X arc starts from the cardinal 0 point, but I don't believe that is necessary for DBOOC. Seems a bit strange to use that arc-length for your maths when you could cut off a significant amount using a different crouch coordinate. Maybe it isn't where most players would tend to put their sticks but I imagine it's easier to do that than shorten the dash forward length.
This doesn't really matter it just seems a curiosity to me to make that metric difference appear very important, when it likely isn't that crucial.
"...will ship in time for Melee's 20th anniversary"...wait, come to think of it, I wonder if Nintendo has been secretly planning something for next month...
The same Nintendo that consistently tries to remove melee from our worldly timeline and wishing the game died in a housefire?
They will come into your house and physically destroy your Melee disc while issuing a C&D just in case you tried to do something to your wii
@@1_____________________ I mean, this *is* the same Nintendo that did what they did with 3D World...
Is there a save file so I can test the features of 1.03 on dolphin?
Keep the invisible QOL/mechanics changes, remove or include a toggle for the obvious Nintendo-angering stage changes!
Really looking forward to 1.03. I plan on getting 1.03, but I don’t believe in preordering. I’ll get one (or two) right as they start shipping!
"Y'all complaining about controller inconsistencies you didn't know existed until a few months ago but still don't know that grab beats shield"
I hate to say this, but if we have Todo all this to make GC controllers to keep up with box, I think we should nerf the box rather than buff the GC controllera
Yeah, Hax using the legality of the box to justify these changes is just bizarre. It's jarring to hear him use such weird reasoning in such a dry confident manner- I thought I misheard
So you think that some Boxx controllers should be better at shield dropping than other Boxx controllers? Or that a boxx should fail dashback out of crouch 5% of the time for no reason? Oh, lets let the really expensive Boxx controllers be able to hit 1.0 Cardinal 100% of the time... and make cheap ones that never hit it... just like Gamecube controllers.
rectangle controllers have disadvantages too, there are just some key advantages that matter more than those disadvantages
@@jakobkinz123456 The issue stems from allowing analogue to digital remapping in the first place. The boxx should absolutely not be tournament legal no matter how many artificial software restrictions are placed on it. Melee was designed as, and has been played as an analogue game for it's entire competitive history, it was a mistake to open the floodgates of digital remapping in the first place.
Hax the king
How exactly does the circle graphic for GCC inputs work with the octagonal rim? Surely your inputs aren’t just confined to a circumscribed octagon, right?
I believe that graphic is accurate to what the game reads as inputs so yes it is confined but also broken as shit evidently
by the end of this viedo 'Dash' 'Back' and 'Crouch' just became sounds with no meaning attached.
algorithm
I don't really feel like you provided a sufficient argument against "Why not choose between learning to move your thumb really fast and taking the risk?" Sure, the types of dash are unequal, but that 80% number here isn't pure polling luck like before. You don't need to be instant to have a 100% success rate, just really fast. And you didn't make a convincing case that 0.93 units in 1 frame is unreasonable.
I think Hax wasn't arguing that the input is so unequal that it is unreasonable, but that it _should_ be equal with the other dash inputs (in UCF).
That being said, I agree that his argument felt a bit lacking, especially the equality deal is more of an opinion.
His argument is that it is still a polling issue as if you get polled twice in that middle quadrant you can't dash back out of crouch. Hence the 80% success rate in the 2 frame window.
His argument as to why a 2 frame window for this is unreasonable is that the thumb is weak at pushing specifically in that type of direction, and that it's a greater distance than the standard dash input which required 2 frames to be consistent. The distance is 1.1625x greater than the dash input, or ~116.3% of the normal dash input.
Since on B0xx controllers it is 100% consistent and can be made so on the goomwave, there is no reason to require standard GC controllers to either have to deal with a 1 frame window for 100% success rate which we already agreed was bad for normal dash back and changed in UCF, or have an 80% success rate in a 2 frame window.
This patch is about making vanilla controllers as good as B0xx controllers and goomwaves.
@@Saskaruto16 A 1 frame window will always have some probability of missing it, no matter how fast you are, by getting an unlucky poll. So there's a very important qualitative difference between 1 frame to 2 and 2 frames to 3.
Furthermore, you can argue this about literally anything with any window. You could argue that the speed you have to move for a normal dashback is too much. You'd be wrong, of course, but Hax didn't explain very thoroughly why you'd be wrong in that case, but might be right to want this extended, except that it's longer.
@@somniad I agree that yes a 1 frame window will always be inconsistent for analog inputs, and that in theory 2 frame window should be enough.
I wouldn't agree with Hax to bump it to a 3 frame window if the B0xx and goomwave couldn't do it 100% of the time consistently in a 2 frame window.
Because the B0xx and goomwave are 100% consistent, base GC controllers should be as well.
If that wasn't the case and everyone has either a 1 frame input window for 100% consistency, or 2 frame window for 80% consistency, that would be fine. Which is why UCF was just fine.
But now we are competing with not just top tier controllers, but the new goomwave and B0xx too. So GC controllers have to be brought up to their level.
lol yall still playin melee. Melee doesnt even have goku lmao
good point
nice math
poggerga
Melee is dead.
All of this awesome but please make a tap jump toggle
To think how closed the Nintendo developers were to get this right is mind boggling to me. Most new games would just not implement the options for movements as precis as this. See NASB.
you should just let melee be melee. selling a pseudo update for $10 ? seems illegal, and naming it 1.03? seems very arrogant and even spiteful... maybe the devs purposefully made dashback annoying and janky? if melee is so dysfunctional why don't you just make your own game? seriously stepping over some lines with this one dude.
Speaking of dysfunctional mechanics, why patching G&W uncancellable aerials isn't a thing yet? This mod brags all about balancing stuff for competitive play but can't address an issue over a low tier character that has a crippling disadvantage over the rest of the cast who can L-Cancel all their moves normally, AND on top of that it also has to deal with having the worst shield in the game.
-FIX MR G&W PLS
This guy just has like the worst takes on melee
Nice name
I honestly just want melee to be left alone there are pro players that consistantly win. There are too many mods coming out for the game I'm tired of it.
Hmmm. I am still suspicious about 1.03. I fully believe the "apology" was because everything that had happened had hurt the Boxx sales and they also wanted to release 1.03 to help fight against the goomwave and without the apology and being in a bad standing with the community it wouldn't even have a chance of being adopted.
Getting my boxx soon. So hyped
Hax believes in this community, and while he still thinks the point he made about leffen were reasonable, he now realised that the way he dumped it all on the community wasn't fruitful.
Now, instead of only apologising, he's making a lot of videos that prove his commitment to the melee scene.
The fact that he makes these things to sell them doesn't discredit their validity, nor does it nullify the effort he put into them.
He's working tirelessly for a community that called him mentally ill and that he is currently banned from (as far as I know till now, may be wrong on this).
This is my interpretation of the whole thing, as someone who has just recently started following melee.
I think bad faith assumption here isn't logical nor beneficial to anyone. Ofc I don't know the guy, so I can't be sure, but given the things we know, I'm convinced that he's in good faith, and that a cynical interpretation of the events doesn't corrispond.
if you think hax$ is here to make money, you are either very misguided or 100% right and hax$ chose the wrong game to make money from. looking at melee as your principal way of profit is straight up impossible.
also, there's no need to bring up anything, he apologyzed already.
and if you think he wasn't true, you might have to wait until his actions prove you right or wrong
Who cares. That doesnt pertain to the arguments made here
so why aren't you suspicious of current ruleset and ucf? hax has contributed to those as well. he just has a habit of spitting melee facts