I have just purchased a Rel T/7X and wired up via my speakers instead of from the amp because I am switching between a Sony solid state amp and a Luxman valve amp. My bass has never been better. The Rel has not only improved bass note but also bass extension. Best improvement i have made.
Your response to the high-level connections to the subs to reflect the sonic signature of the main amps is spot on. Well, except for the fact that, among other things, the sub's amplifier will also induce their own sonic signature into the mix. In which case, the fidelity of the sonic signature of the main amps has now been absolutely compromised and the resulting sound from the sonic signature of two amps at the subs is nothing more than a box of chocolates. Hence, the entire purpose of high-level connections to a sub (to retain the main amp's sonic signature at the sub) is nothing but a huge question mark at best. Can one achieve a a superior / musical bass with REL subs and high-level inputs? Probably. But if so, I'll bet dollars-to-donuts the preservation of the main amp's sonic signature has zero to do. Not sure why nobody seems to think these things through.
Good afternoon Paul. I understand that outputting the signal from the amplifier can better synchronize the subwoofer with the main speakers, compared to outputting the signal from the preamplifier. However, I feel that we would be accumulating distortion generated by the main amplifier and the active subwoofer amplifier. Greetings!
"Proper way" is the simpler way and works for most people. However, technically, it's not really so ideal when your smaller side speakers become burdened by trying to reproduce redundant inferior sub bass yielding compression and port noise. For the cleanest sub bass I use DSP cross over and allow the side speakers to be freed up from the heavy bass power. In this way you can more effectively utilize what each speaker/sub is best at and also tune the cross-over precisely to avoid any response issues in the bass. Of course it's much more complicated and not recommended for most people but if you want the cleanest purest bass, this is the way to go. Smaller speakers often turn into distortion generators in the bass when the excursion limits are reached perhaps with 10s of percents of THD. Still, especially, if you have a tube amplifier or hybrid amplifier (what PS Audio makes), I can see Paul's argument as a good one, as the tube's added effect (musical even harmonics) could be desired seamlessly through the full frequency response.
Yeah, it’s a pretty simple and easy to agree with concept, to not send the sub bass frequencies to the speakers not meant to reproduce sub bass. In practice, it’s a little more complicated to implement but figuring out that miniDSP doesn’t take a genius.
@@graxjpg Yes, miniDSP is one way to go and if you want to go further you can use mono blocks for every speaker driver and use a product like miniDSP Flex Eight (I recently bought one of those for my desktop setup). But then you enter a territory of optimization that is very complicated for most people as you gain precise control of every filtering characteristic. For 90% of consumers who just want a simple working setup, Paul is right.
Almost agree, although I'd stay away from DSP. One spends good money on an expensive DAC, that feeds your amp, where a DSP turns it back into digital, modifies it, then turns it back into analogue, with probably a way inferior DAC than your $$$ DAC tasked with trying to bring perfection to you. Or your a vinyl aficionado, no digital for me - trouble is that DSP is then making it all but digital.
@@paulstubbs7678 For analog source setups of course you should not involve DSP. Active cross-over can also be done with analog circuits on the line level better than on the power level.
@@ThinkingBetter I always preferred analog filtering, as those levels of precision and complexity you’re tending towards requires less confusing math for me in the analog world lol.
Nope, sorry Paul.. The propper way is by using signal cables. Then you also get the benefit to skip that extra step of decreasing the signal voltage from the speaker cables and then sending it to the sub amp.. And in a surround setup there would be no other way to integrate it because of the dedicated LFE channel. That is also why most surrounr recivers give the option of sending LFE + L/R signal via the sub output. And in a stereo setup with a integrated amp then just use the normal pre-out channels if there are any and are not already in use. The high-level inputs on subs are just there as a option to connect a sub to a system without pre-out... That's why so many subs still include them. Even cheap ones. And that is actually a fact.
I’ve felt my RSL subwoofer wasn’t producing it’s full share of goodness. I originally ran a single RCA cable from my active desktop speaker to my RSL’s LFE. To produce a richer sound, I’ve added a splitter plus another RCA cable. After 8 days, I had to lower the volume from the back of the RSL. I’m hoping to achieve a fuller bass tonality.
Maybe a stupid question, but if a power amp has a signature, the internal amplifier in the rel will as well? Better to use a passive radiator and use the same brand/type of power amp as you use for the speakers?
According to what Paul is saying I had my sub set up wrong. I had a DAC with two sets outputs. One set to the stereo amp and the other directly to the subwoofer so it would be bypassing the tone/character of the amplifier. Since the the amplifier and the subwoofer have their own individual amp characteristics. I figured the most direct input out of the DAC would work fine. the amplifier is going to work off the tone of the DAC anyway. not claiming I know any better but that's what I did, sounded fine to my mortal ears. (1) The DAC colors the amplifier, (2) then the amp colors the subwoofer (3) that has its own color, so you have three different characteristics by the end result for the sub, I decided to run it directly to get the characteristics of the DAC.
Just yesterday, i REL mentions that if you have very efficient speakers, do not use speaker level. He was promoting his HT Mk2 series of subs to pair with high efficiency speakers...
Typically speaker level is a good way to run a sub. Speaker level connections don’t work as well with very high efficiency speakers. My Klipsch are 105 db at 1 watt. Line level inputs work better than speaker level on my subs.
I have SVS PC2000 pro, but although my av processor has 3 sub woofer outputs, I use an Antimode from DSpeaker. This is essential, espcially using 2 or more subwoofers, as can adjust for each and prevents issues.
When funds allow, I'd highly recommend swapping out the included high-level cables you'll get with your REL with their Bassline Blue cables. It makes a massive difference - enough that my very decidedly non-audiophile girlfriend asked me whether I'd bought a new sub when I first hooked it up.
Why is it you suggest that a power amp has a sound and the sub amp is somehow transparent ? surely a similar sounding power amp would be better ? I get the impedance point regarding the pre-amp. But I constantly here the point about power amp sound, and never any consideration for subwoofer amp sound ? I would have thought the pre amp would have more influence on the sound as well as the choice of sub and driver (assuming its properly aligned and integrated) rather than the main power amp
This is a very interesting discussion by Paul on Robert of British Columbia's question. Robert mentioned one sub cable or output? If he use the REL subs for AV purposes from a AV amp or receiver, he should use the RCA low level input on the sub. I found on my demo DVD, Tomorrow never dies, that specific bass sound is channelled on Dolby Digital to be only on the sub channel. I do not have surround sound on my home system...I run my DVD sound on 2 channel stereo on my main system that has a pair of ESS AMT 1D monsters and 2 REL subs wired from the speaker outputs of my hybrid tube power amp. All that deep explosion sound is completely missing on my system...so those explosions are channelled on the sub channel by Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS. On music from CD or records the 2 REL subs shake the room. I leave this subject for discussion and hope to get comments from you people.
Would there be an advantage to using line level instead of amp out to allow active crossover? If your main speakers benefit from reduced low frequency at high level driving? Perhaps using a nice pair of stand speakers? And reducing the power demands on the amps driving them?
@@tothemax324 While yes I stated that in my first sentence, it is not technically correct! There is no reason a passive crossover can not be used between a Preamp and multiple Amps!
I'd agree with high level inputs if it were not for the fact that some amps colour the sound. I just switched from a nva amp with high levels to sub. I had a 80hz hole in the response no matter what I did. I changed over to a class D amp with RCA to the subwoofer and boom just like that the 80hz that I had thought was a room problem has disappeared. Therefore I can only assume my old amp has a hole in its response and by using high level I was transferring that to my sub. So in some cases high level may not be a good idea. Especially for amps that colour the sound to a great degree.
I tried hooking my svs subwoofer with speaker wires to my integrated amp and a got a strong hum noise from the sub so I disconnected it and returned safely to my svs interconnects
Many also say NOT to use your speaker line outs. For one you must use your main speakers at full range and I for one cut them off rather high. My subwoofers deffo outperform my mains up to at least 80 hz.
If "Robert" was familiar with REL subwoofers, he would know that they *come with* high-output 3 terminal to Speakon cables and never asked the question!! They *cannot* be hooked up with speaker cable!! Paul *invented* something??? According to the US patent office, there is only one; an "acoustic spatial projector".
I have just purchased a Rel T/7X and wired up via my speakers instead of from the amp because I am switching between a Sony solid state amp and a Luxman valve amp. My bass has never been better. The Rel has not only improved bass note but also bass extension. Best improvement i have made.
It's in your head. If you looked on test gear you'd see NOTHING.
@@morbidmanmusic It is clear to me and others when turning the sub on and off.
Your response to the high-level connections to the subs to reflect the sonic signature of the main amps is spot on. Well, except for the fact that, among other things, the sub's amplifier will also induce their own sonic signature into the mix. In which case, the fidelity of the sonic signature of the main amps has now been absolutely compromised and the resulting sound from the sonic signature of two amps at the subs is nothing more than a box of chocolates. Hence, the entire purpose of high-level connections to a sub (to retain the main amp's sonic signature at the sub) is nothing but a huge question mark at best. Can one achieve a a superior / musical bass with REL subs and high-level inputs? Probably. But if so, I'll bet dollars-to-donuts the preservation of the main amp's sonic signature has zero to do. Not sure why nobody seems to think these things through.
REL supply cables to connect the subs with them. And it has the required speakon (is that how it is spelled?) connector.
Good afternoon Paul. I understand that outputting the signal from the amplifier can better synchronize the subwoofer with the main speakers, compared to outputting the signal from the preamplifier. However, I feel that we would be accumulating distortion generated by the main amplifier and the active subwoofer amplifier. Greetings!
🤗THANKS PAUL,FOR THE HISTORY LESSON…and SOUND ADVICE 😊💚💚💚
"Proper way" is the simpler way and works for most people. However, technically, it's not really so ideal when your smaller side speakers become burdened by trying to reproduce redundant inferior sub bass yielding compression and port noise. For the cleanest sub bass I use DSP cross over and allow the side speakers to be freed up from the heavy bass power. In this way you can more effectively utilize what each speaker/sub is best at and also tune the cross-over precisely to avoid any response issues in the bass. Of course it's much more complicated and not recommended for most people but if you want the cleanest purest bass, this is the way to go. Smaller speakers often turn into distortion generators in the bass when the excursion limits are reached perhaps with 10s of percents of THD. Still, especially, if you have a tube amplifier or hybrid amplifier (what PS Audio makes), I can see Paul's argument as a good one, as the tube's added effect (musical even harmonics) could be desired seamlessly through the full frequency response.
Yeah, it’s a pretty simple and easy to agree with concept, to not send the sub bass frequencies to the speakers not meant to reproduce sub bass. In practice, it’s a little more complicated to implement but figuring out that miniDSP doesn’t take a genius.
@@graxjpg Yes, miniDSP is one way to go and if you want to go further you can use mono blocks for every speaker driver and use a product like miniDSP Flex Eight (I recently bought one of those for my desktop setup). But then you enter a territory of optimization that is very complicated for most people as you gain precise control of every filtering characteristic. For 90% of consumers who just want a simple working setup, Paul is right.
Almost agree, although I'd stay away from DSP. One spends good money on an expensive DAC, that feeds your amp, where a DSP turns it back into digital, modifies it, then turns it back into analogue, with probably a way inferior DAC than your $$$ DAC tasked with trying to bring perfection to you.
Or your a vinyl aficionado, no digital for me - trouble is that DSP is then making it all but digital.
@@paulstubbs7678 For analog source setups of course you should not involve DSP. Active cross-over can also be done with analog circuits on the line level better than on the power level.
@@ThinkingBetter I always preferred analog filtering, as those levels of precision and complexity you’re tending towards requires less confusing math for me in the analog world lol.
Nope, sorry Paul.. The propper way is by using signal cables. Then you also get the benefit to skip that extra step of decreasing the signal voltage from the speaker cables and then sending it to the sub amp.. And in a surround setup there would be no other way to integrate it because of the dedicated LFE channel. That is also why most surrounr recivers give the option of sending LFE + L/R signal via the sub output. And in a stereo setup with a integrated amp then just use the normal pre-out channels if there are any and are not already in use. The high-level inputs on subs are just there as a option to connect a sub to a system without pre-out... That's why so many subs still include them. Even cheap ones. And that is actually a fact.
I’ve felt my RSL subwoofer wasn’t producing it’s full share of goodness.
I originally ran a single RCA cable from my active desktop speaker to my RSL’s LFE.
To produce a richer sound, I’ve added a splitter plus another RCA cable. After 8 days, I had to lower the volume from the back of the RSL.
I’m hoping to achieve a fuller bass tonality.
Rels are great! And as the man says, use their recommended speaker lead cables.
Maybe a stupid question, but if a power amp has a signature, the internal amplifier in the rel will as well? Better to use a passive radiator and use the same brand/type of power amp as you use for the speakers?
According to what Paul is saying I had my sub set up wrong. I had a DAC with two sets outputs. One set to the stereo amp and the other directly to the subwoofer so it would be bypassing the tone/character of the amplifier. Since the the amplifier and the subwoofer have their own individual amp characteristics. I figured the most direct input out of the DAC would work fine. the amplifier is going to work off the tone of the DAC anyway. not claiming I know any better but that's what I did, sounded fine to my mortal ears.
(1) The DAC colors the amplifier, (2) then the amp colors the subwoofer (3) that has its own color, so you have three different characteristics by the end result for the sub, I decided to run it directly to get the characteristics of the DAC.
Just yesterday, i REL mentions that if you have very efficient speakers, do not use speaker level. He was promoting his HT Mk2 series of subs to pair with high efficiency speakers...
It's kind of funny under certain circumstances cables don't matter...but in others they do? 😁
My thoughts exactly! I'm shocked he said the cables don't matter. Not saying he wrong, just shocked.
Next video will be "do cables matter?" 💵💵💵
Thanks Sir for the info
Typically speaker level is a good way to run a sub. Speaker level connections don’t work as well with very high efficiency speakers. My Klipsch are 105 db at 1 watt. Line level inputs work better than speaker level on my subs.
There's a District of Columbia too. I asked a bunch of Americans about it one night at a bar and they had no idea what it was lol.
I have SVS PC2000 pro, but although my av processor has 3 sub woofer outputs, I use an Antimode from DSpeaker. This is essential, espcially using 2 or more subwoofers, as can adjust for each and prevents issues.
When funds allow, I'd highly recommend swapping out the included high-level cables you'll get with your REL with their Bassline Blue cables. It makes a massive difference - enough that my very decidedly non-audiophile girlfriend asked me whether I'd bought a new sub when I first hooked it up.
Why is it you suggest that a power amp has a sound and the sub amp is somehow transparent ? surely a similar sounding power amp would be better ? I get the impedance point regarding the pre-amp. But I constantly here the point about power amp sound, and never any consideration for subwoofer amp sound ? I would have thought the pre amp would have more influence on the sound as well as the choice of sub and driver (assuming its properly aligned and integrated) rather than the main power amp
This is a very interesting discussion by Paul on Robert of British Columbia's question. Robert mentioned one sub cable or output? If he use the REL subs for AV purposes from a AV amp or receiver, he should use the RCA low level input on the sub. I found on my demo DVD, Tomorrow never dies, that specific bass sound is channelled on Dolby Digital to be only on the sub channel. I do not have surround sound on my home system...I run my DVD sound on 2 channel stereo on my main system that has a pair of ESS AMT 1D monsters and 2 REL subs wired from the speaker outputs of my hybrid tube power amp. All that deep explosion sound is completely missing on my system...so those explosions are channelled on the sub channel by Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS. On music from CD or records the 2 REL subs shake the room. I leave this subject for discussion and hope to get comments from you people.
Would there be an advantage to using line level instead of amp out to allow active crossover? If your main speakers benefit from reduced low frequency at high level driving? Perhaps using a nice pair of stand speakers? And reducing the power demands on the amps driving them?
Only advantage if one had a active XO, most peeps don't
@@tothemax324 While yes I stated that in my first sentence, it is not technically correct! There is no reason a passive crossover can not be used between a Preamp and multiple Amps!
Are those speakers in the background, B&W CM7?
I'd agree with high level inputs if it were not for the fact that some amps colour the sound. I just switched from a nva amp with high levels to sub. I had a 80hz hole in the response no matter what I did. I changed over to a class D amp with RCA to the subwoofer and boom just like that the 80hz that I had thought was a room problem has disappeared. Therefore I can only assume my old amp has a hole in its response and by using high level I was transferring that to my sub. So in some cases high level may not be a good idea. Especially for amps that colour the sound to a great degree.
As others have stated, each REL will come with its own high level cable.
Not the HT series
@@rapfreak7797 yeah, not always included.
I'm using a rythmik from my Yamaha amps sub out. Easier, simpler, sounds great. No complaints here
I tried hooking my svs subwoofer with speaker wires to my integrated amp and a got a strong hum noise from the sub so I disconnected it and returned safely to my svs interconnects
A ground wire eliminates the hum
I love my Rel T5 with my Sonus Faber Sonetto 3’s
How is this relevant? Enjoy them
I take the signal out of my pre amp I have four balance outputs two for my amps and two for my subs that is the best way out of the pre amp
Many also say NOT to use your speaker line outs. For one you must use your main speakers at full range and I for one cut them off rather high. My subwoofers deffo outperform my mains up to at least 80 hz.
High level cables are included with the subwoofer. At least here in Sweden.
If that's the case, why doesn't BHK600 have high-level outputs?
The BHK 600 has only high level outputs.
Not sure what you are saying...
Passive or active?
Active.
If "Robert" was familiar with REL subwoofers, he would know that they *come with* high-output 3 terminal to Speakon cables and never asked the question!! They *cannot* be hooked up with speaker cable!!
Paul *invented* something??? According to the US patent office, there is only one; an "acoustic spatial projector".
"acoustic spatial projector", that sounds like a good description for Paul M
For REL Storm 5 see my separate post. Surely you could argue that is (a form of) speaker cable?
or ... "54 / 40 or Fight"
Lol im from b.c some Americans think it means before christ
The UK still owns Canada
Use reasonable cables. No need for expensive. Audio and lab test have shown over rated and over its is mostly bullshyte.