I was extremely impressed by the Iguana when I brought it in QK. You can give it link bonuses via Hafza wildcard(s) in a Haris team (though I like adding the Sekban doc as a third member for NCO and the ability to pick up the HI operator) and the escape system effectively limits your maximum loss for putting it on ARO duty. I'm not sure that I've ever felt so safe from conventional threats as I did when putting a linked Iguana on hard ARO in N5. It'll reliably eat orders, screen your order pool, and still be around as an armor-cracking gun on your next active turn. I wouldn't recklessly park it in front of an HRMC - hard ARO rules still apply - but it's pretty great within it's defensive category of ARM-based brick wall. And all the active turn benefits of being a TAG with a repeater apply.
You guys need to check out Maximus' profile again. Hes changed a lot in N5. He has Thunderbolt +2B which basically reduces his SWC cost to have an HMG, and he is ARM IMMUNE. He fears no ML OR HRL. Hes also 4 STR because he has an ejection system (-3). Most importantly his is close combat which is quite strong. Hes actually worth taking now, especially when disco baller exists. Hes the TAG that actually wants to get into close combat lol Hes also in a faction with Feuerbach's and E/Mitters for TAG hunting.
Unfortunately will have to disagree. Imm Arm and CC skills are great and all but he costs 76pts and can only punch down. His guns are mediocre at best having lost suppressive fire and having no ap except a B2 E/M carbine. CC skills on a TAG have always been more of a deterrent than a strategy and unlike the other TAGS now he is unable to do anything specialist related until hes popped his escape system. Ultimately in Pano/Kestrel you are taking the Tikbalang because its a better gunfighter and in Aleph/OSS you have better things to spend points on.
Oooft, maybe a year from now you'll be right. But I cant see them being better than anything in A tier currently, and the differences between the factions in B tier are very close.
Ariadna is low C tier now. Everything that they had going on before got nerfed (bears, template weapons, no dogs, smoke, fireteams, berserk, and more all pounded) and nothing was added to make it better.
Big Disagree. The average BS across the game went down, which is only good for Ariadna and they picked up the Vystrel with some notable buffs to Knauf, Vassily, Vat Kazaks, EM5, Apaches and some really cool duos. They certainly dont have the variety they once did but they hold up pretty well and definitely outclass most NA2 and everything in C tier currently
@lossoflieutenant1886 Did all other armies get gimped hard as well then? I started playing mid N3 with CHA and everything I know about Ariadna and its sectorials seems gone.
@@hamsternchips Majority (not all) sectorials have worse link teams in general. Majority (Not CA) of Vanillas have lost some unit variety that pushed them above sectorials previously. I really wouldnt say that the things you mentioned have hurt Ariadna beyond repair. Bears have been nerf but they were an S tier unit before, now they are just 'good'. They keep plently of template weapons and good ones at that. Smoke is a bit of a hit, but currently there is a bear profile that throws smokes on 20's and ariadna has high PH in general. Fireteams are actually better in Vanilla and TAK, Kosmo and USA are in the bin though. Berserk is different but on some units better than it was. Apaches berserking now no longer trade but FTF and win the roll reliably, same with Cadin and Highlander duos. Dogs warriors are still in Vanilla and are perfectly fine. They still keep their TAG, camo, excellent imp units, good AP and good ARO's now including turrets and super cheap baggage. I wouldnt be surprised to see someone do extremely well with them.
Hey, a bit of a noobish question, but what kills the riot grrl moderator fireteam is the riot grrl gaining limited cover after scoring a wound, right? Or is there some other interaction with frenzy not being suppressed in fireteams that I'm missing?
lacking sixth sense is the big one. the huge problem with msv1 fireteam pieces like the riot grrl in n4, is that sixth sense made it so you couldn't actually take a fair to advantaged fight vs her. if you smoked she should of been on a -3 but sixth sense ignored that. if you white noised she should of been on -6 but sixth sense ignored that. All you could do was avoid her with stuff like white noise. In n5 in addition to the frenzy changes making it so her doing a wound has a cost now. you can no longer (outside of a pure RG link which is very spenno) get the same value with her+4 moderators. I cannot overstate how important it is that you can now abuse pieces like the riot grrl, with smoke, white noise, and albedo (albedo working vs those msv pieces that still do have sixth sense is also huge) Thank you for coming to my ted talk ~Jordan
@@lossoflieutenant1886 Nah man, thanks a lot for the reply. I've got only maybe a dozen games under my belt and most of them were losses against a friend who always plays bakunin, so this is all crucial info before the next one.
Not even a mention of the changes to wu ming, that ap hmg looks pretty good. Also sun Tze has the potential to be armor 10 now as an aro piece. I think iss probably roll MO just via efficiency and order count.
Sad to hear Military Orders are low. But I'll probably still paint them up and expect to not do too well in my games. And I'll be able to use them in Vanilla. I made a Vanilla list with a JoanV2 plus 2 Blade-ops (kamau models) for a Stealth Haris all with Tac-Aware. 11 order-generating models, 15 orders in the list. 😂
I think they're wrong about MO being carried by the Seraph, fwiw. Their midfield is genuinely excellent (and Trinitarians aren't hackable) and there are quite a few powerful knightly options (some quite affordable like the Montesa, some centerpiece-tier like the Crux). The one real challenge is Lt. - if you're not going all-in on a Seraph via NCO then you're probably stuck with an active Lt. without Chain of Command backup. So MO is powerful, but practically always going to have that single exploitable point of failure.
@ I think they are in B tier. Not solidly into B but there. They can hang with the big boys, will lose if rolls are bad or if you get hyper aggressive early, they do a lot of things well now that the deadliness of this game is toned down with the bonuses of fire teams is nerfed. I do see some of the points you make, but there is good things the army have other than tags.
Dang i just got into military order at the end of N4 as my first faction and found out we were not very good . I was hoping we'd go up a ranking in n5 but we still c tier 😂
Dont be too saddened, the difference between C and A tier isnt so large that as Jordan would put it "You're playing a different game" MO is still absolutely capable of winnings games and doing well.
Just gonna say it as a combined player... I really don't like seeing combined in S... I was going to keep playing morats coming into n5, they were where I spent most of n4 after thry got retooled. i was hoping that vanilla was going to get toned down and shasvastii was going to be buffed a bit.
@ they don’t unfortunately the roadbot duo is max one, they can’t duo with itself and the oko/roadbot doesn’t raise the purity so no special dice. But offensively in vanilla you can run them around together which is nice. So that’s a bonus. I guess the core of my point is that special duo defensive interaction can really make starmada worth it when combined with the nwi and remote presence interaction.
@@austinbecker9024 Thats a good point! Doesnt change Starmada much. They build very awkward and the security full core is worse now. Vanilla has been definitely better since getting moonrakers and they didnt really lose much firepower going to N5 so they actually hit above average which is nice. You;re right that the struggle with ARO's but im thinking turrets will help quite a lot this edition
@ agreed beyond that interaction I can’t see a reason to take starmada now over vanilla besides beta troopers maybe. I say this as a long time starmada enthusiast
I don't know that any 5 man link is worth it, unless you just have extra guys tacked onto a duo/Haris to move up the board and get dropped off along the way
I think with the pentient glowup with ap spitfire+continuous damage, makes me look at a haris team of her with cenobites. i think if you want a defensive core now you look to the cenobite HRL+some guys. Listbuilding with bakuwunin after the update has been a ton of fun. No longer feeling nailed to riot grrls is very freeing ~Jordan
Yea I agree Ikari is above Druze. Yojimbo is B3 Contender which is T2. The Wu Ming are good, and cheap and hit hard with lots of EM including an EM GL 0 SWC. Maxing out cores is OK but a player only cares about pure 2 and occasionally 4. Take ikari for example, keisotsu are very good now with really interesting profiles. Putting 4 9-12 point guys in there with a cheaper Brawler MSV2 who has 6th sense organically is fully serviceable. The Brawler can’t be surprise shot and when he dies, the Keisotsu HMG BS-3 is still a BS12 pure shooter for backup. In addition, the 19 pt Tanko is close to an auto include as he is BS13 Disco and de activator. Very self contained unit. So Ikari and Druze have eclipse and a desire to get in close. Druze can duo just fine and one cheap Druze and Taowu makes for fine pitcher delivery. The only dark spot is hacking but you can put Wu Ming tin bot with a Brawler hacker in a Haris with the AP HMG and get a 6th sense hacker sitting under tin bot -6 whose death doesn’t impact the Haris at all unless it want to reform. The smaller teams allow for some quite varied lists. If they are any good, I don’t know yet but it’s a major mental shift away from the large cores. Ikari and Druze just do them well still.
Am I the only one who doesn’t think the Nahab isn’t all that good? Sure it got bs -3 but it’s mostly only rocking an Smg. Also berserk getting worse has also hurt this guy I love Nahabs but I just don’t think the changes are a net positive given the increase in cost
I was extremely impressed by the Iguana when I brought it in QK. You can give it link bonuses via Hafza wildcard(s) in a Haris team (though I like adding the Sekban doc as a third member for NCO and the ability to pick up the HI operator) and the escape system effectively limits your maximum loss for putting it on ARO duty. I'm not sure that I've ever felt so safe from conventional threats as I did when putting a linked Iguana on hard ARO in N5. It'll reliably eat orders, screen your order pool, and still be around as an armor-cracking gun on your next active turn. I wouldn't recklessly park it in front of an HRMC - hard ARO rules still apply - but it's pretty great within it's defensive category of ARM-based brick wall.
And all the active turn benefits of being a TAG with a repeater apply.
Awesome marathon guys!
3:07:23 "Bipandra, this man had a glow up and a half".
Ouch.
Has it really been this long since Dire Foes 1?
In my defence I started playing infinity most of the way through 2022 and have never seen birpandra on a tabletop lol
~Jordan
You guys need to check out Maximus' profile again. Hes changed a lot in N5. He has Thunderbolt +2B which basically reduces his SWC cost to have an HMG, and he is ARM IMMUNE. He fears no ML OR HRL. Hes also 4 STR because he has an ejection system (-3). Most importantly his is close combat which is quite strong. Hes actually worth taking now, especially when disco baller exists. Hes the TAG that actually wants to get into close combat lol Hes also in a faction with Feuerbach's and E/Mitters for TAG hunting.
Unfortunately will have to disagree. Imm Arm and CC skills are great and all but he costs 76pts and can only punch down. His guns are mediocre at best having lost suppressive fire and having no ap except a B2 E/M carbine. CC skills on a TAG have always been more of a deterrent than a strategy and unlike the other TAGS now he is unable to do anything specialist related until hes popped his escape system.
Ultimately in Pano/Kestrel you are taking the Tikbalang because its a better gunfighter and in Aleph/OSS you have better things to spend points on.
Ōban is the best way to run JSA now. You have cheap smoke and eclipse grenades. A tier faction for sure
Oooft, maybe a year from now you'll be right. But I cant see them being better than anything in A tier currently, and the differences between the factions in B tier are very close.
Shindenbutai is structurally a very odd group. It’s the Banzai side mostly. It does have lots of camo but seems
Ariadna is low C tier now. Everything that they had going on before got nerfed (bears, template weapons, no dogs, smoke, fireteams, berserk, and more all pounded) and nothing was added to make it better.
Big Disagree. The average BS across the game went down, which is only good for Ariadna and they picked up the Vystrel with some notable buffs to Knauf, Vassily, Vat Kazaks, EM5, Apaches and some really cool duos. They certainly dont have the variety they once did but they hold up pretty well and definitely outclass most NA2 and everything in C tier currently
@lossoflieutenant1886 Did all other armies get gimped hard as well then? I started playing mid N3 with CHA and everything I know about Ariadna and its sectorials seems gone.
@@hamsternchips Majority (not all) sectorials have worse link teams in general. Majority (Not CA) of Vanillas have lost some unit variety that pushed them above sectorials previously. I really wouldnt say that the things you mentioned have hurt Ariadna beyond repair. Bears have been nerf but they were an S tier unit before, now they are just 'good'. They keep plently of template weapons and good ones at that. Smoke is a bit of a hit, but currently there is a bear profile that throws smokes on 20's and ariadna has high PH in general. Fireteams are actually better in Vanilla and TAK, Kosmo and USA are in the bin though. Berserk is different but on some units better than it was. Apaches berserking now no longer trade but FTF and win the roll reliably, same with Cadin and Highlander duos. Dogs warriors are still in Vanilla and are perfectly fine.
They still keep their TAG, camo, excellent imp units, good AP and good ARO's now including turrets and super cheap baggage.
I wouldnt be surprised to see someone do extremely well with them.
With Corregidor, the links that don't suck are mostly making a little link out of Wildcats with MSV1. The rest aren't good.
The Wish version of Charlie Day is a salt mine of negativity
Hey, a bit of a noobish question, but what kills the riot grrl moderator fireteam is the riot grrl gaining limited cover after scoring a wound, right? Or is there some other interaction with frenzy not being suppressed in fireteams that I'm missing?
lacking sixth sense is the big one. the huge problem with msv1 fireteam pieces like the riot grrl in n4, is that sixth sense made it so you couldn't actually take a fair to advantaged fight vs her. if you smoked she should of been on a -3 but sixth sense ignored that. if you white noised she should of been on -6 but sixth sense ignored that. All you could do was avoid her with stuff like white noise.
In n5 in addition to the frenzy changes making it so her doing a wound has a cost now. you can no longer (outside of a pure RG link which is very spenno) get the same value with her+4 moderators. I cannot overstate how important it is that you can now abuse pieces like the riot grrl, with smoke, white noise, and albedo (albedo working vs those msv pieces that still do have sixth sense is also huge)
Thank you for coming to my ted talk
~Jordan
@@lossoflieutenant1886 Nah man, thanks a lot for the reply. I've got only maybe a dozen games under my belt and most of them were losses against a friend who always plays bakunin, so this is all crucial info before the next one.
Pas de miracle de Noel pour l'USariadna.
Not even a mention of the changes to wu ming, that ap hmg looks pretty good. Also sun Tze has the potential to be armor 10 now as an aro piece. I think iss probably roll MO just via efficiency and order count.
If you really wanted to, iss can now deploy entirely mid board with a large minefield too.
There's a lot of changes. A few are bound to slip through unnoticed.
Sad to hear Military Orders are low. But I'll probably still paint them up and expect to not do too well in my games. And I'll be able to use them in Vanilla.
I made a Vanilla list with a JoanV2 plus 2 Blade-ops (kamau models) for a Stealth Haris all with Tac-Aware. 11 order-generating models, 15 orders in the list. 😂
I think they're wrong about MO being carried by the Seraph, fwiw. Their midfield is genuinely excellent (and Trinitarians aren't hackable) and there are quite a few powerful knightly options (some quite affordable like the Montesa, some centerpiece-tier like the Crux). The one real challenge is Lt. - if you're not going all-in on a Seraph via NCO then you're probably stuck with an active Lt. without Chain of Command backup. So MO is powerful, but practically always going to have that single exploitable point of failure.
@@corbeaubm We would love to be putting them higher in a year from now !
Nerfs to Teutons and Montesa are rough though
MO is far better than they are saying. Far better
@@justinerickson282 Where do you think they rank?
@ I think they are in B tier. Not solidly into B but there. They can hang with the big boys, will lose if rolls are bad or if you get hyper aggressive early, they do a lot of things well now that the deadliness of this game is toned down with the bonuses of fire teams is nerfed.
I do see some of the points you make, but there is good things the army have other than tags.
Can non-Aussies write in with a "Oh god, I have no idea what I am doing?"
Absolutely ! We would love that
That’s interesting UKR lost MSV1 for Kosmo but kept for USARF. Reason to run USA? 🤨
Dang i just got into military order at the end of N4 as my first faction and found out we were not very good . I was hoping we'd go up a ranking in n5 but we still c tier 😂
Dont be too saddened, the difference between C and A tier isnt so large that as Jordan would put it "You're playing a different game" MO is still absolutely capable of winnings games and doing well.
They are just fine. The game got far less deadly and MO are armor everywhere. I’ve already made a ton of lists that will compete with the “big boys”
@@justinerickson282 what u thinking? I could use list advice.
@ let me draw up a list I was cooking. I have a seraph heavy one, then I have a Joan with the KotHS.
@@justinerickson282 gimme the joan one, dont have a seraph rn 🤣
Combined Army S-tier. As is tradition.
Just gonna say it as a combined player... I really don't like seeing combined in S...
I was going to keep playing morats coming into n5, they were where I spent most of n4 after thry got retooled.
i was hoping that vanilla was going to get toned down and shasvastii was going to be buffed a bit.
Is starmada worse vanilla? That aro from oko roadbot duo is a brutal aro and crumple zone
Vanilla get that duo too
@ they don’t unfortunately the roadbot duo is max one, they can’t duo with itself and the oko/roadbot doesn’t raise the purity so no special dice.
But offensively in vanilla you can run them around together which is nice. So that’s a bonus.
I guess the core of my point is that special duo defensive interaction can really make starmada worth it when combined with the nwi and remote presence interaction.
Ps love your content x1000!
@@austinbecker9024 Thats a good point! Doesnt change Starmada much. They build very awkward and the security full core is worse now. Vanilla has been definitely better since getting moonrakers and they didnt really lose much firepower going to N5 so they actually hit above average which is nice. You;re right that the struggle with ARO's but im thinking turrets will help quite a lot this edition
@ agreed beyond that interaction I can’t see a reason to take starmada now over vanilla besides beta troopers maybe. I say this as a long time starmada enthusiast
Looking forward to playing around with Bakunin. Do you think a full five man Reverend team still has play?
I don't know that any 5 man link is worth it, unless you just have extra guys tacked onto a duo/Haris to move up the board and get dropped off along the way
I think with the pentient glowup with ap spitfire+continuous damage, makes me look at a haris team of her with cenobites. i think if you want a defensive core now you look to the cenobite HRL+some guys. Listbuilding with bakuwunin after the update has been a ton of fun. No longer feeling nailed to riot grrls is very freeing
~Jordan
@@lossoflieutenant1886 Penitent Harris, Riot Harris with Avicenna and Fiddler, Lizard with Repeaters, lot of fun new options opening up
Yea I agree Ikari is above Druze. Yojimbo is B3 Contender which is T2. The Wu Ming are good, and cheap and hit hard with lots of EM including an EM GL 0 SWC. Maxing out cores is OK but a player only cares about pure 2 and occasionally 4. Take ikari for example, keisotsu are very good now with really interesting profiles. Putting 4 9-12 point guys in there with a cheaper Brawler MSV2 who has 6th sense organically is fully serviceable. The Brawler can’t be surprise shot and when he dies, the Keisotsu HMG BS-3 is still a BS12 pure shooter for backup. In addition, the 19 pt Tanko is close to an auto include as he is BS13 Disco and de activator. Very self contained unit. So Ikari and Druze have eclipse and a desire to get in close. Druze can duo just fine and one cheap Druze and Taowu makes for fine pitcher delivery. The only dark spot is hacking but you can put Wu Ming tin bot with a Brawler hacker in a Haris with the AP HMG and get a 6th sense hacker sitting under tin bot -6 whose death doesn’t impact the Haris at all unless it want to reform.
The smaller teams allow for some quite varied lists. If they are any good, I don’t know yet but it’s a major mental shift away from the large cores. Ikari and Druze just do them well still.
Am I the only one who doesn’t think the Nahab isn’t all that good? Sure it got bs -3 but it’s mostly only rocking an Smg.
Also berserk getting worse has also hurt this guy
I love Nahabs but I just don’t think the changes are a net positive given the increase in cost
Cuimhnich Gleann Comhann agus N5. Alba gu bràth!
Hard disagree with white banner not having solid ARO game.
It’s definitely in the top 3 of A tier easily.
I love white banner, glad to hear people are rating them even higher than I do!
~Jordan
thx love wasting my life watching this