@sbmphr I think felix nailed the pros and cons. Less refurb and moving parts for the solid legs, They will do that if they can make it work well, if not they have proven tech with the folding legs as you say. I doubt that spaceX is even certain what design they will go with, until they've tested it, nobody have ever propulsively landed anything close to this big, the physics arent proven.
Important issue that I didn't see addressed, the Starship fins move the center of pressure forward on Starship which is not a problem for Falcon, without fin-like structures on the booster, Starship will have to constantly be fighting to maintain attitude on ascent. Not sure how much of a problem this is, but I doubt it's negligible.
Boeing : Today we achieved a milestone, we have tested 1 section of the SLS booster, in 6 months we will have a technical report and 6 months later we might schedule another test for 6 months later. SpaceX : Next week SN8, week after SN9, week after SN10 ....
@@wouterdevlieger1002 BO still hasn't put a single thing into orbit and were completely disqualified in the upcoming rounds of military launch contracts, and now their staff are leaving the company to do their own startups, something that indicates a poor faith in BO's future. I think BO is in more trouble than we realize.
@Franklin Ratliff I wouldn't call Starship a hypersonic vehicle like the Space Shuttle. It's much closer to a typical capsule than an actual aircraft. Starship just has a very novel control method. If you classify Starship as a hypersonic vehicle like the Shuttle or X-15, you may as well throw the Apollo command module in there as well, because it controlled its decent dynamically.
The Excitement I'm feeling waiting for this SN8 Test to happen is Almost Unbearable. The last time I remember feeling this way, I was 8 years old and Christmas was about 2 weeks away. The Holidays felt like they would never get here. I'm 51 years old now and Waiting for this "SN8 Flight Test" is building up the anticipation, like its never been built before. I can't Wait❗ I definitely feel like I'm 8 yrs old again.
I mean, are Elon Musk and SpaceX incredible, or what? Their rate of progress is astounding, and I can't get over the changes in space technology that have occurred seemingly overnight!!! To say that Elon and SpaceX are "game changers" is quite simply an understatement of EPIC PROPORTIONS, and I am more excited each and every day! Our future in space is finally looking to be a firm reality! Go, Starship - to the moon, and beyond :-}
A great reminder to us all regarding SpaceX and just how revolutionary they've been over a relatively short span of time. Great information and report as always, Felix!! I appreciate all of your hard work, and the entertainment/educational value is very high... Cheers to Team WAI 👊✌
@@FelixSchlang I agree with fixed being first up. That's the thing about Elon and SpaceX.. they always keep things exciting and generate high levels of anticipation. Stoked to see what's to come from them! Thanks for keeping us updated in such a good way on the fast pace of fun!
Hey...I've never commented on your videos before, but I love your up-beat optimistic view of things. You go against the grain during these difficult times. You rock! Hahaha!
Starship: Fold-out legs becuase it's easier to land on rough terrains. Superheavy: Leg/Fins because it's only made for earth and they are less complex, more reliable and cheaper.
If space agencies/companies were genres of music: NASA: classic rock (used to be cutting-edge, but is now seen as old-fashioned) ESA: Eurobeat (not the same as its American contemporaries, but offers something unique and different) Roscosmos: country/western (has been successful for a long time; manages to keep on going and stay relevant, despite using otherwise outmoded equipment and methods) Blue Origin: indie garage band (we occasionally hear about them, but their activity is mostly behind closed garage doors) ULA: classical (enduringly popular and suitable for any occasion, but lacking in novelty and innovation) Northrop-Grumman: grunge (rough and dirty, but powerful nonetheless (because their mostly solid-based rockets make lots of pollution)) Rocket Lab: chamber ensemble (is small in size, but capable of doing big things) SpaceX: speed-metal (very fast, relentlessly moving forward with no sign of stopping)
My favorite episode yet, thanks Felix! I'm really digging the folding style landers. Lots of moving parts though. Could get tricky. Keep up the good work!
From Costa Rica, I thank all for the amazine and informative videos. Do not miss one and learn from them as well, as you make me think about what you ask and talk about. Keeps my mind moving forward in this pandemic. YOU ROCK!!
If sn-8 lifts off, flys up, does a belly flop and lands, all that covered by cameras imma sit here behind my screen and just have a 5 minutes brain dead time before realizing wth just happened 😂
It will go up and it will go down one way or another. The only question is whether there will be an explosion on the pad, a crater in Texas, or a pivotal moment in the history of space travel.
@@alextell7019 These things are not mutually exclusive, except in a single flight. We know how SpaceX works, taking their cue from General Nathaniel Green, they fly, they crash, they rise and fly again.
I’m surprised that 4 legs do it. Remember when wheeled office chairs has only 4 legs they were so prone to tipping over. Then came the revolutionary 5 legs chair and viola. Is there something magical in 5? Toes & fingers.
Welp... 5 has more support. As easy as it is. It would be exactly the same for rockets BUT, an office chair has a much higher center of mass. An empty booster landing has a bery low center of mass, so 4 do the trick.
For the 20km hop they will have to use the belly flop maneuver. With the design, they won't have any pitch or yaw authority when the engines are off and the rocket falling vertically at high rates. The aerodynamics of the ship only give it control when in the belly flop orientation. It doesn't have grid fins like the Falcon 9. At high vertical speeds when falling the vehicle will not have proper authority unless it is belly flopping.
I wonder if turbulent flow is even an issue for Super Heavy to land using grid fins. I imagine even Falcon 9 has turbulent flow around it when it lands, given the speeds it travels and the lack of a smooth leading edge. Putting the grid fins at 45° to the landing legs would hardly help as turbulent flow expands rapidly from the edge that creates it. I believe the only good reasons to go without fixed legs are to reduce drag on launch and to improve stability on re-entry. The simplicity of fixed legs will be crucial if SpaceX wants a turn around time of hours rather than days.
While retractable legs look cool and would make the rocket more stable on re-entry, I think you are right that the fixed legs will help with rapid reusability.
I expect that deployed landing legs can have a simple built-in retraction device. Probably just a winch for each leg. But the launch mount could also contain the retraction devices, activated after clamping. There is no need to specially orient deployed landing legs and grid fins. The landing legs are not deployed until the velocity is too low for proper grid-fin operation. After all, the present legs have a large surface area that would be pushed up by a high velocity air-stream. They need to drop promptly, and are released close to the ground at modest speeds.
I have a feeling there r 2 teams working inside Boca Chica. There is a good chance that one day we might see a starship doing static fire test as well as another starship doing a hop all in the same day.
@@clintatk I would not be surprised at all if the nosecones have different SN numbers like the engines do. They seem to produce independent of the tank stacking what makes absolutely sense. Until SN8 they did not even have to get one done, they could just experiment with those complex parts and it does stil not seem to be important which cone exactly gets used so they could improve them and build a new one at any time.
@@Bauer-ke6lp All the nose cones show signs of innovating, beyond the steady improvement in the welds. There are signs of more sophisticated internal structures on the more recent ones, I assume in prep for more advanced flights, but also the weld patterns vary.
Your support team with their renderings make for exciting speculating, Felix! As for the speed at which the Starship project is moving, I've always assumed that Space X is pretty confident that they can directly apply much of what they have learned from Falcon 9 development. As Elon has said, building Starship is the easy part, but manufacturing is the challenge. So each time they are successful on the pressure/static fire stand, they are pretty confident in the actual flight. Just look at good old Flying Water Tower. Once thrown together, even as rough as it was, it flew almost flawlessly.
I don’t think they’ll use the fold out legs unless they add a way to self-retract. I think their design choice is aiming for a faster/more automated turn around time. So a fixed leg (in theory) makes more sense. Only time will tell!!! I cant wait to watch their progress!
I can see three ways to retract the legs. 1) The legs will fold themselves after the booster is lifted by a crane. 2) The crane will momentarily set the booster into a leg retractor device. 3) The launch mount will fold the legs after the booster is attached.
The interior will probably completely change depending on the mission. A starlink flight needs a completely different interior than a manned mars mission. But if there are humans and/or cameras on board there wil be fancy blue touchscreens.
It is only a half a week but still i am like finally new video. I just mean taht these videos are superly great i love aall of them keep diong this forewer
I'm pretty sure they'll go for F9 style retractable legs on SuperHeavy for several reasons. First is that fin-type legs will make it far more difficult to make a stable engine first descent, they will always be trying to flip the booster around, that is the opposite of the beneficial stabilising effect they would have on ascent. They will also make it much more difficult to land in heavy winds, both in terms of the control algorithms as well as possibly requiring the fins to have moveable aerodynamic surfaces. I'm sure Spacex control engineers would still succeed in somehow making it stable by some engineering magic but it would need so much more work and in the end be far more complex and prone to unforeseen issues. This complexity would probably far outweigh the complexity saved by having fixed legs instead of retractable ones. Second is that retractable legs can incorporate very long shock absorption easily and the shock absorber is actually part of the structure itself (as in falcon 9). The pivoting mechanism also doubles up as the pivoting for the shock absorption so you almost certainly end up saving weight by having the retractable legs. The fixed (fin type) legs would still need moving parts to provide the shock absorption whereas the retractable ones elegantly use the same structure and mechanism both for the retractability as well as shock absorption. Third is that retractable legs will allow a much wider stance without impairing the performance during launch or the stability during descent. The wide stance would greatly increase the chance of successful landing in heavy winds or even engine failures that would result in asymmetric thrust. It would be especially helpful for landing at sea in rough weather. Fourth is that the absence of fins will reduce the need for clearance between the booster and the launch service tower, or conversely for the same distance provide more clearance for safety and also allow for shorter boom length for the crane that will lift the booster onto the launch pad. I suspect that eventually even Starship will soon get retractable legs, probably exactly the same as for the booster, except possibly a bit more sturdy as it will actually be heavier than the booster if it lands with a large payload and possibly a reserve of propellant for safer manned landings.
Wow, yes! The McGregor TX test stand looks very similar, but its supports are much larger tanf the height of the stand is much taller than what we see now. Good connection of the two facilities. Keep your eyes sharp!
I am definitely into science, and I am already a CuriosityStream subscriber. Very cool that they sponsored whataboutit. Real science and tech is so much better than making shit up. As for the foldout legs vs fixed legs, it would seem the trade off would be less aerodynamic drag for the fold out legs, vs simplicity of the static legs. I bet they do fold out legs for the reduced drag.
Use starship prototypes as above and below the water resort dwellings. They're perfect for this purpose. The stainless will not be attacked by salt water. Attach a heavy base to one end and sit it upright in shallow water with an artificial reef around it. Cut spots for thick windows below the water, add a doughnut shaped floating dock, some floors and plumbing inside, more windows on the upper floors and major cut-outs for a top floor patio with most of the walls removed for a panoramic view but enough left to support the roof. Maybe some could get a plexiglass dome with a telescope on top. I'd love to work on some of those in the Florida Keys or Bahamas!
2 questions; 1 will flip out legs handle weight of empty Super Heavy on landing and 2, how will Super Heavy, with Star Ship, both fully loaded, handle the 14-16 million pounds of weight while sitting on launch pad? I think a very sturdy set of fixed landing legs might be best, even if they disturb wind-flow for grid fins on re-entry and landing. So many questions!!
The tank walls will actually be in tension as soon as some propellant evaporates in the tanks, so they only have to handle dry weight, not the propellant mass. The full weight of the stack, payload, and propellant is pressing down on the engine skirt, so it is built quite robust. But it mostly looks like a metal version of rolled-up corrugated cardboard standing on edge. The launch mount can have a channel that conforms to the entire bottom of the engine skirt, spreading out the weight. The SH must have hold-down clamps to withstand high wind force before launch and for full duration engines testing.
The forces imposed on four landing legs are very well understood by SpaceX after more than 80 landings. The boosters have strain gauges mounted at all sorts of interesting locations, and the legs have been inspected after most landings.
I totally forgot to mention that the SH landing legs *Do Not* need to support the stack on the launchpad! All that weight can be just on the engine skirt and/or hold-down clamps. The legs only need to handle an empty booster landing.
It sank in for me when I went for a walk around the harbour earlier this year, where there are some old cement silos... and it occurred to me, "hey, that's about the right proportions for a Starship prototype". And yeah, did some rough measurements, and it's actually not far off... the silo is a little wider than Starship, but a little shorter than SN5/6. Close enough to visualise. So now, every time I walk past, I'm reminded just how big this rocket is going to be. Take two of these silos and stack them, and you've got Superheavy... add a third for the Starship tanks, and then a bit more for the payload space and nose cone. It's going to be *huge*.
@@simongeard4824 well I have seen stlos but I never saw bug ones the biggest one was like 2 m wide and 10m tall but I do know that the starship is pretty much as wide as the house I live in so it's big but I would need to see it for real scale
@@mmb3006 Yeah, the silos I'm talking about are unused now, but were part of the port used for storing cement offloaded from ships. They're not as big as the giant grain silos seen throughout North American ports, but they're still pretty big...
2:00. I'm just staring at that and envisioning the glorious spectacle. Old vs young viewpoints. Young are full of ideas and energy. They see everything as new without any borders. Old are tired and don't want to try new things and are often road blocks to positive changes. But some of us are still rule breakers and would love to see old assumptions proven wrong. And we are happy to fund and cheer the young in their astro endevorings!
It's worth remembering that this is (pretty much) how everyone thought rocket development worked before NASA came along and started publishing the 'professional' (aka: cost plus) way of doing it.
More than that, I think they'd prefer fixed legs if possible, because all other things being equal, having fewer moving parts is always better... and we know the folding legs are a pain in the neck for Falcon recovery. So I think they'd only go with folding legs on SH if testing showed a compelling reason to do so... e.g. a need to reduce drag, or a need for a wider base on landing...
@@Zeppflyer True. Starship and Superheavy are different beasts though, and priorities will differ... e.g Starship doesn't do a vertical descent guided by grid fins, and Superheavy doesn't skydive...
I like the flip-out landing legs for the fact that they are aerodynamic in the closed position. Since they are a proven design, I see only one reason for not using them. The only possible drawback that could preclude their use is that the Super Heavy booster is much heavier than Falcon. Therefore, the robustness required of the legs may not allow that design to be scaled up for the bigger rocket.
I dont think they'll go with deployable legs because the reason they changed to 4 legs would only be needed if the legs were fixed. Also, as you've stated, falcon 9's legs would increase complexity, probability of failures and maintance, specially considering the re-usable goal of starships. Great video btw
On the subject of the leg design, do we need to take into account the desire to have Starship dock "arse-to-arse" with a tanker? Having flip out legs mean that they don't interfere with this refuelling option for the Mars colony missions. Having a similar design for SuperHeavy boosters would mean a lower parts inventory for SpaceX, which is great if possible for reuse, production timescales, etc.
Flip out legs - because on reentry, the fins would provide too much interference for the fall, and most likely with fixed fins, the booster will not be able to fall vertically due to fix fin interference. Also vortex and air disturbance by the lower fins will affect the upper grid fins in a big way. So they will be actuated feet for sure.
Elon has stated in a tweet that they are moving from 6 to 4 legs on the SH and making them wider so as to not impinge on the engine exhaust in a vacuum. This would suggest that they have a fixed leg in design as Falcon style wouldn't affect anything in a vacuum.
12:50 I think the fold out legs are the best option (and also standard on the Falcon 9) Also if its going to be landing at sea then it'll need the suspension so to speak. I hear that it'll be too loud to fly regularly from Boca.
Maybe the old Starship prototypes could be emptied, sealed and used as wide-spread floats to add extra stability to initial sea launch platforms. Like those canoe-like boats in the south Pacific with torpedo-shaped floats to one side to add stability.
I think the four leg f9 approach is best as it is proven and has a simple shock absorber which could be modified for re-use and uneven ground landings . Also, by the time the legs extend, the speed is slow enough that the grid fins don't do that much anymore, so turbulence on them wouldn't be much of an issue
They need some give in the legs, so I suspect that even if they do go for static legs there will be at least small feet that have a suspension system that will deploy out by roughly half a meter to absorb the shock of landing.
What do you think? Do both Super Heavy options make sense? Which one do you think will SpaceX pursue and why?
8:13 nothing that Space X does is normal.
It’s usually much smarter than normal!
@sbmphr I think felix nailed the pros and cons. Less refurb and moving parts for the solid legs, They will do that if they can make it work well, if not they have proven tech with the folding legs as you say. I doubt that spaceX is even certain what design they will go with, until they've tested it, nobody have ever propulsively landed anything close to this big, the physics arent proven.
99K! Well done WAI team you deserve it
Important issue that I didn't see addressed, the Starship fins move the center of pressure forward on Starship which is not a problem for Falcon, without fin-like structures on the booster, Starship will have to constantly be fighting to maintain attitude on ascent. Not sure how much of a problem this is, but I doubt it's negligible.
Boeing : Today we achieved a milestone, we have tested 1 section of the SLS booster, in 6 months we will have a technical report and 6 months later we might schedule another test for 6 months later.
SpaceX : Next week SN8, week after SN9, week after SN10 ....
Blue origin: one test per year.
@@wouterdevlieger1002 BO still hasn't put a single thing into orbit and were completely disqualified in the upcoming rounds of military launch contracts, and now their staff are leaving the company to do their own startups, something that indicates a poor faith in BO's future.
I think BO is in more trouble than we realize.
SLS has a launch date of July 9 2021. Finally.
💀💀💀💀💀💀💀🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
@Franklin Ratliff I wouldn't call Starship a hypersonic vehicle like the Space Shuttle. It's much closer to a typical capsule than an actual aircraft. Starship just has a very novel control method. If you classify Starship as a hypersonic vehicle like the Shuttle or X-15, you may as well throw the Apollo command module in there as well, because it controlled its decent dynamically.
A proud patron here. One of my favorite things about Doctor Strange's videos is he takes great care to ALWAYS credit the sources for his footage.
Omg doctor strange
@@joeyknight8272 yea I always wonder why he keeps calling himself Felix. 😅
The Excitement I'm feeling waiting for this SN8 Test to happen is Almost Unbearable. The last time I remember feeling this way, I was 8 years old and Christmas was about 2 weeks away. The Holidays felt like they would never get here. I'm 51 years old now and Waiting for this "SN8 Flight Test" is building up the anticipation, like its never been built before. I can't Wait❗ I definitely feel like I'm 8 yrs old again.
JON R Wieszchowski yes. It’s the best thing about 2020 by a long shot.
100% agreed. SpaceX has all our attention and rightfully so. Go SpaceX!
I mean, are Elon Musk and SpaceX incredible, or what? Their rate of progress is astounding, and I can't get over the changes in space technology that have occurred seemingly overnight!!! To say that Elon and SpaceX are "game changers" is quite simply an understatement of EPIC PROPORTIONS, and I am more excited each and every day! Our future in space is finally looking to be a firm reality!
Go, Starship - to the moon, and beyond :-}
@@robertgagne8892 I better have a moon condo by the time I'm 30 or I will be really confused.
A great reminder to us all regarding SpaceX and just how revolutionary they've been over a relatively short span of time. Great information and report as always, Felix!! I appreciate all of your hard work, and the entertainment/educational value is very high... Cheers to Team WAI 👊✌
Thank you very much for the kind words! It's an honor to be able to do this for all of #teamspace
I'm really digging the Falcon 9 style of legs.
They look absolutely awesome. We'll see, what SpaceX does. In the beginning, likely fixed legs. Later MAYBE folded? ♥️🚀
@@FelixSchlang I agree with fixed being first up. That's the thing about Elon and SpaceX.. they always keep things exciting and generate high levels of anticipation. Stoked to see what's to come from them! Thanks for keeping us updated in such a good way on the fast pace of fun!
Agreed
I don't like the reduction of the landing legs. With only 4 legs a single leg failure is catastrophic and very expensive. Seems like a risky move.
@@dickysgarage7120 ya i agree 6 would be more stable just in case one fails while human are on it
10 months passed and the progress is INSANE!!
Now first orbital flight almost ready!!
This is altogether fascinating. Thanks for the run-down. Good drone work by the other guys, too.
Hey...I've never commented on your videos before, but I love your up-beat optimistic view of things. You go against the grain during these difficult times. You rock! Hahaha!
@@Whataboutit right, but let's see how "optimistic" you are after Nov. 3. ;D
Starship: Fold-out legs becuase it's easier to land on rough terrains.
Superheavy: Leg/Fins because it's only made for earth and they are less complex, more reliable and cheaper.
If space agencies/companies were genres of music:
NASA: classic rock (used to be cutting-edge, but is now seen as old-fashioned)
ESA: Eurobeat (not the same as its American contemporaries, but offers something unique and different)
Roscosmos: country/western (has been successful for a long time; manages to keep on going and stay relevant, despite using otherwise outmoded equipment and methods)
Blue Origin: indie garage band (we occasionally hear about them, but their activity is mostly behind closed garage doors)
ULA: classical (enduringly popular and suitable for any occasion, but lacking in novelty and innovation)
Northrop-Grumman: grunge (rough and dirty, but powerful nonetheless (because their mostly solid-based rockets make lots of pollution))
Rocket Lab: chamber ensemble (is small in size, but capable of doing big things)
SpaceX: speed-metal (very fast, relentlessly moving forward with no sign of stopping)
Cute.
They'd still all sound the same in space: SILENT!! Oh, you forgot that little detail!! ;D
Ron Schlorff In Star Wars, there is sound in space. We all know those movies are very realistic, so yes, there is certainly sound in space.
@@InventorZahran right, SW a good source of space science!! I'll make a note! ;D lol
My favorite episode yet, thanks Felix! I'm really digging the folding style landers. Lots of moving parts though. Could get tricky. Keep up the good work!
I can't wait 4 weeks when you willsay something like this:
"We finally found out what tipe of legs will be used on Super Heavy"
:D
That's how it goes. I can only paint the possible outcomes. Elon has to choose.
@@Whataboutit gimme the elon emoticons 😂 gimme now
@@riskucal ":_WAIElonlaugh:"
He already knows because has access to the time stone, but it is great to keep us in suspense.
From Costa Rica, I thank all for the amazine and informative videos. Do not miss one and learn from them as well, as you make me think about what you ask and talk about. Keeps my mind moving forward in this pandemic. YOU ROCK!!
Thank you very much!!! Greetings back!
If sn-8 lifts off, flys up, does a belly flop and lands, all that covered by cameras imma sit here behind my screen and just have a 5 minutes brain dead time before realizing wth just happened 😂
It will go up and it will go down one way or another. The only question is whether there will be an explosion on the pad, a crater in Texas, or a pivotal moment in the history of space travel.
Yeah, don't expect it though. Even a crater in the ground would be a step forward! Crossing my fingers for that perfect first flight of SN8!!!
@@Whataboutit I got my fingers crossed too! Either way it's going to be the most exciting day for space flight this year!
Skydiver, not belly flop. If it does a belly flop, that would create a catastrophic kaboom.
@@alextell7019 These things are not mutually exclusive, except in a single flight. We know how SpaceX works, taking their cue from General Nathaniel Green, they fly, they crash, they rise and fly again.
I'm more looking forward to the Super Heavy tests! Can not wait!
Eyyy you're so close to 100k!!! Congrats!
First time here and blown away by the specificity, succinctness and quality of content. Subbed! Let's get you to 100K and that first UA-cam medal!
Thank you very much for the nice comment!!!
100K subscribers, congratulations, you rock!!
I’m surprised that 4 legs do it.
Remember when wheeled office chairs has only 4 legs they were so prone to tipping over. Then came the revolutionary 5 legs chair and viola.
Is there something magical in 5?
Toes & fingers.
Welp... 5 has more support. As easy as it is. It would be exactly the same for rockets BUT, an office chair has a much higher center of mass. An empty booster landing has a bery low center of mass, so 4 do the trick.
Yes
That's why my parents decided to go with 5 fingers and toes for me and my sister.
@@randal_gibbons Lucky there
If Musk can figure out how to get it down to 3 legs it will be 3 legs.
If he can figure out how to bend the laws of physics, 2 legs.
You and your team are doing a fantastic job with this channel.
Imagine if the sls budget was given to spacex
No, imagine if the NASA budgets were given to "rescue" failing Democratic-run cities and states; a more likely scenario! Wait for it!! :D
@@ronschlorff7089 Imagine commenting on a space science video to push your uneducated political agenda.
For the 20km hop they will have to use the belly flop maneuver. With the design, they won't have any pitch or yaw authority when the engines are off and the rocket falling vertically at high rates. The aerodynamics of the ship only give it control when in the belly flop orientation. It doesn't have grid fins like the Falcon 9. At high vertical speeds when falling the vehicle will not have proper authority unless it is belly flopping.
The speculative graphics and animations are great and they really add up to the quality of the channel ! Well done 👍🏼
Can we talk about the people making the 3|D rendering? (Yes, I know Felix already did). But seriously, the engine gimble was awesome.
Yes very good job to those to whom it's due.
@nickhenning3d Follow him on Twitter and say it to him in person! He deserves it!
Silly me. Also @ercXspace and @caspar_stanley
Oo those Falcon legs look incredible! Well done Nick Henning👌👌👌
Nick Rocks! 😍
I wonder if turbulent flow is even an issue for Super Heavy to land using grid fins. I imagine even Falcon 9 has turbulent flow around it when it lands, given the speeds it travels and the lack of a smooth leading edge.
Putting the grid fins at 45° to the landing legs would hardly help as turbulent flow expands rapidly from the edge that creates it.
I believe the only good reasons to go without fixed legs are to reduce drag on launch and to improve stability on re-entry. The simplicity of fixed legs will be crucial if SpaceX wants a turn around time of hours rather than days.
While retractable legs look cool and would make the rocket more stable on re-entry, I think you are right that the fixed legs will help with rapid reusability.
They should hire Destin from smartereveryday.
He'll engineer them some laminar flow fins
I expect that deployed landing legs can have a simple built-in retraction device. Probably just a winch for each leg. But the launch mount could also contain the retraction devices, activated after clamping.
There is no need to specially orient deployed landing legs and grid fins. The landing legs are not deployed until the velocity is too low for proper grid-fin operation. After all, the present legs have a large surface area that would be pushed up by a high velocity air-stream. They need to drop promptly, and are released close to the ground at modest speeds.
I have a feeling there r 2 teams working inside Boca Chica. There is a good chance that one day we might see a starship doing static fire test as well as another starship doing a hop all in the same day.
I thought that too. The speed is too much for just one team.
I would think that there is also a separate noise cone team.
@@clintatk I would not be surprised at all if the nosecones have different SN numbers like the engines do. They seem to produce independent of the tank stacking what makes absolutely sense. Until SN8 they did not even have to get one done, they could just experiment with those complex parts and it does stil not seem to be important which cone exactly gets used so they could improve them and build a new one at any time.
@@Bauer-ke6lp All the nose cones show signs of innovating, beyond the steady improvement in the welds. There are signs of more sophisticated internal structures on the more recent ones, I assume in prep for more advanced flights, but also the weld patterns vary.
Your support team with their renderings make for exciting speculating, Felix! As for the speed at which the Starship project is moving, I've always assumed that Space X is pretty confident that they can directly apply much of what they have learned from Falcon 9 development. As Elon has said, building Starship is the easy part, but manufacturing is the challenge. So each time they are successful on the pressure/static fire stand, they are pretty confident in the actual flight. Just look at good old Flying Water Tower. Once thrown together, even as rough as it was, it flew almost flawlessly.
Thanks Felix for the great analysis, pictures, videos and animation. Very well done.
My favorite place for spaceX updates, thanks again bro!
Really invaluable work for the people who do the animations and models.
I don’t think they’ll use the fold out legs unless they add a way to self-retract. I think their design choice is aiming for a faster/more automated turn around time. So a fixed leg (in theory) makes more sense. Only time will tell!!! I cant wait to watch their progress!
I can see three ways to retract the legs.
1) The legs will fold themselves after the booster is lifted by a crane.
2) The crane will momentarily set the booster into a leg retractor device.
3) The launch mount will fold the legs after the booster is attached.
I love the collaboration with other artists! Can we do some wild speculation about what the interior of Starship will look like? Please!
I want more cgi too! 😂👍👍
The interior will probably completely change depending on the mission. A starlink flight needs a completely different interior than a manned mars mission. But if there are humans and/or cameras on board there wil be fancy blue touchscreens.
nearly 100K. Good luck, should have it by the next hop.
well deserved!
Thank you! 156 to go!
@@Whataboutit Brilliant, I'm loving your content and joined your Patreons. Your out takes of pronunciations at the end are hilarious.
It is only a half a week but still i am like finally new video. I just mean taht these videos are superly great i love aall of them keep diong this forewer
I jyst mean that*
All*
Roger that!
Great episode, Felix!! Many more advancements and achievements to look forward to - SpaceX ROCKetS!
They could put an obsolete nosecone on top of obsolete SN6
This!
@sbmphr 5:38 - it would look nicer with a nosecone
@sbmphr use punctuation, please
I'm pretty sure they'll go for F9 style retractable legs on SuperHeavy for several reasons.
First is that fin-type legs will make it far more difficult to make a stable engine first descent, they will always be trying to flip the booster around, that is the opposite of the beneficial stabilising effect they would have on ascent. They will also make it much more difficult to land in heavy winds, both in terms of the control algorithms as well as possibly requiring the fins to have moveable aerodynamic surfaces. I'm sure Spacex control engineers would still succeed in somehow making it stable by some engineering magic but it would need so much more work and in the end be far more complex and prone to unforeseen issues. This complexity would probably far outweigh the complexity saved by having fixed legs instead of retractable ones.
Second is that retractable legs can incorporate very long shock absorption easily and the shock absorber is actually part of the structure itself (as in falcon 9). The pivoting mechanism also doubles up as the pivoting for the shock absorption so you almost certainly end up saving weight by having the retractable legs. The fixed (fin type) legs would still need moving parts to provide the shock absorption whereas the retractable ones elegantly use the same structure and mechanism both for the retractability as well as shock absorption.
Third is that retractable legs will allow a much wider stance without impairing the performance during launch or the stability during descent. The wide stance would greatly increase the chance of successful landing in heavy winds or even engine failures that would result in asymmetric thrust. It would be especially helpful for landing at sea in rough weather.
Fourth is that the absence of fins will reduce the need for clearance between the booster and the launch service tower, or conversely for the same distance provide more clearance for safety and also allow for shorter boom length for the crane that will lift the booster onto the launch pad.
I suspect that eventually even Starship will soon get retractable legs, probably exactly the same as for the booster, except possibly a bit more sturdy as it will actually be heavier than the booster if it lands with a large payload and possibly a reserve of propellant for safer manned landings.
He and his team are proving the Chinese Proverb: "Those who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those doing it".
Nice, ...sort of like that other one: "Those who decimate the world with a lab-produced virus may win the world." ;D
Love the videos man keep up the good work
great informative videos for us general public texan
out of all UA-cam shows about space x this is my favourite
"How fast does spacex work?"
" *Y E S* "
Hopefully everything goes smoothly with the 20KM hop!
@@Whataboutit I'm so proud of SpaceX and how fast they are progressing, it's insane to think this only took 18 years.
Wow, yes! The McGregor TX test stand looks very similar, but its supports are much larger tanf the height of the stand is much taller than what we see now. Good connection of the two facilities. Keep your eyes sharp!
I am definitely into science, and I am already a CuriosityStream subscriber. Very cool that they sponsored whataboutit. Real science and tech is so much better than making shit up.
As for the foldout legs vs fixed legs, it would seem the trade off would be less aerodynamic drag for the fold out legs, vs simplicity of the static legs. I bet they do fold out legs for the reduced drag.
part's, part's, part's, part's, parts, Felix never change you rock dude!
NASA: in ten years we will recover the first samples from mars with an advanced collection rover.
SpaceX: We brought a shovel and a bag.
Neither will happen, even in ten years, if you all vote WRONG!!
You are really close to 100k subscribers
Use starship prototypes as above and below the water resort dwellings. They're perfect for this purpose. The stainless will not be attacked by salt water. Attach a heavy base to one end and sit it upright in shallow water with an artificial reef around it. Cut spots for thick windows below the water, add a doughnut shaped floating dock, some floors and plumbing inside, more windows on the upper floors and major cut-outs for a top floor patio with most of the walls removed for a panoramic view but enough left to support the roof. Maybe some could get a plexiglass dome with a telescope on top. I'd love to work on some of those in the Florida Keys or Bahamas!
2 questions; 1 will flip out legs handle weight of empty Super Heavy on landing and 2, how will Super Heavy, with Star Ship, both fully loaded, handle the 14-16 million pounds of weight while sitting on launch pad? I think a very sturdy set of fixed landing legs might be best, even if they disturb wind-flow for grid fins on re-entry and landing. So many questions!!
So, on the pad, there will be clamps and yes, 4 legs should do just fine. The weight you save can be added on the other legs.
The tank walls will actually be in tension as soon as some propellant evaporates in the tanks, so they only have to handle dry weight, not the propellant mass.
The full weight of the stack, payload, and propellant is pressing down on the engine skirt, so it is built quite robust. But it mostly looks like a metal version of rolled-up corrugated cardboard standing on edge. The launch mount can have a channel that conforms to the entire bottom of the engine skirt, spreading out the weight.
The SH must have hold-down clamps to withstand high wind force before launch and for full duration engines testing.
The forces imposed on four landing legs are very well understood by SpaceX after more than 80 landings. The boosters have strain gauges mounted at all sorts of interesting locations, and the legs have been inspected after most landings.
I totally forgot to mention that the SH landing legs *Do Not* need to support the stack on the launchpad! All that weight can be just on the engine skirt and/or hold-down clamps. The legs only need to handle an empty booster landing.
Good job Felix, I really appreciate your research and hard work!
Good job......nice summation......appreciated.
Oh you are super close to 100k subs! Congrats
It's hard for me to grasp the size of these rockets because I have never seen one but seeing the flap on the truck just blew my mind
It sank in for me when I went for a walk around the harbour earlier this year, where there are some old cement silos... and it occurred to me, "hey, that's about the right proportions for a Starship prototype". And yeah, did some rough measurements, and it's actually not far off... the silo is a little wider than Starship, but a little shorter than SN5/6. Close enough to visualise.
So now, every time I walk past, I'm reminded just how big this rocket is going to be. Take two of these silos and stack them, and you've got Superheavy... add a third for the Starship tanks, and then a bit more for the payload space and nose cone. It's going to be *huge*.
@@simongeard4824 well I have seen stlos but I never saw bug ones the biggest one was like 2 m wide and 10m tall but I do know that the starship is pretty much as wide as the house I live in so it's big but I would need to see it for real scale
@@mmb3006 Yeah, the silos I'm talking about are unused now, but were part of the port used for storing cement offloaded from ships. They're not as big as the giant grain silos seen throughout North American ports, but they're still pretty big...
2:00. I'm just staring at that and envisioning the glorious spectacle. Old vs young viewpoints. Young are full of ideas and energy. They see everything as new without any borders. Old are tired and don't want to try new things and are often road blocks to positive changes. But some of us are still rule breakers and would love to see old assumptions proven wrong. And we are happy to fund and cheer the young in their astro endevorings!
Just saw that curiosity stream Pompeii doc last night lol! Great service
Awesome episode! I want some supa hevi!
Supa Hevi!!! :D Thank you, Mikko! :)
Liebe deine Videos ❤sie sind zur Routine geworden eine Pflicht für die woche🔥
We live in exciting times.
Another great video!
Thank you, Daniel!
It's worth remembering that this is (pretty much) how everyone thought rocket development worked before NASA came along and started publishing the 'professional' (aka: cost plus) way of doing it.
Greetings from Indianapolis. You do an amazing job! Thank you! I tell others to follow you. Amazing!
So close to 100K subscribers!!
absolutely cannot wait to watch one go 60,000ft and when they do the belly flop tests it'll be insane
What Elon Musk is doing is nothing short of incredible. He is the spiritual heir of Von Braun.
Almost at 100K subs! Congratulations in advance!!
Getting close to 100k subs! Hope you get there soon!
This guy makes cool videos I love it ,
You rock!
SpaceX crazy fast and tallented people. So exciteing to keep up with!
Felix I wondered what had happened to you. Just love your show and your passion. I’ve learned so much.
What had happened? Blame it on the algorithm... 😄 I had a flu and skipped two episodes. Other than that everything is fine!
What about it!? Wunderba
Almost 100K Subs! Congrats!
100k subscribers!!!! Congratulations 🎈🎉
Thanks for the update. Your doing a good job
8:13 nothing that Space X does is normal.
Possibly static legs on early test versions with retractable legs coming later?
Possibly!
More than that, I think they'd prefer fixed legs if possible, because all other things being equal, having fewer moving parts is always better... and we know the folding legs are a pain in the neck for Falcon recovery. So I think they'd only go with folding legs on SH if testing showed a compelling reason to do so... e.g. a need to reduce drag, or a need for a wider base on landing...
@@simongeard4824 Positives and negatives to both. Static fin/legs were considered for the Starship, but they've gone to retractable ones on it.
@@Zeppflyer True. Starship and Superheavy are different beasts though, and priorities will differ... e.g Starship doesn't do a vertical descent guided by grid fins, and Superheavy doesn't skydive...
Agreed
I like the flip-out landing legs for the fact that they are aerodynamic in the closed position. Since they are a proven design, I see only one reason for not using them. The only possible drawback that could preclude their use is that the Super Heavy booster is much heavier than Falcon. Therefore, the robustness required of the legs may not allow that design to be scaled up for the bigger rocket.
Thank you for making these videos!
I dont think they'll go with deployable legs because the reason they changed to 4 legs would only be needed if the legs were fixed. Also, as you've stated, falcon 9's legs would increase complexity, probability of failures and maintance, specially considering the re-usable goal of starships. Great video btw
I figured the super heavy legs would change. The aerodynamics of the original design didn't make much sense to me. Great video btw I'm a huge fan!!
Thank you!
Can't wait to see the final Starship !!
Congratulations on 100k subs!
Boeing is maximizing it's profit, SpaceX in minimizing it's cost. The key to space exploration is making it affordable, I place my bet on SpaceX.
SN8 is NET October 11 per FCC filing at least ;) Not directly first week of October ! keep on the awesome work
! :D
Ha!!! I didn't even know about that! Will have to check! Thank you
This is when your boss is an engineer. I' m excited for Space X!
Thanks Felix, you're the best! I have to say that SpaceX will choose to use flip out legs because they are more than more than proven.
very close to 100k subscribers its a very very good info channel ..next stop 200k
On the subject of the leg design, do we need to take into account the desire to have Starship dock "arse-to-arse" with a tanker? Having flip out legs mean that they don't interfere with this refuelling option for the Mars colony missions. Having a similar design for SuperHeavy boosters would mean a lower parts inventory for SpaceX, which is great if possible for reuse, production timescales, etc.
I miss my old job. I used to be able to watch every video as soon as it dropped but now I don't get to watch it until I get off.
Great episode...as always. Only 50K to go until 100K subscribers. So cool!
Flip out legs - because on reentry, the fins would provide too much interference for the fall, and most likely with fixed fins, the booster will not be able to fall vertically due to fix fin interference. Also vortex and air disturbance by the lower fins will affect the upper grid fins in a big way. So they will be actuated feet for sure.
Elon has stated in a tweet that they are moving from 6 to 4 legs on the SH and making them wider so as to not impinge on the engine exhaust in a vacuum. This would suggest that they have a fixed leg in design as Falcon style wouldn't affect anything in a vacuum.
12:50 I think the fold out legs are the best option (and also standard on the Falcon 9) Also if its going to be landing at sea then it'll need the suspension so to speak. I hear that it'll be too loud to fly regularly from Boca.
Maybe the old Starship prototypes could be emptied, sealed and used as wide-spread floats to add extra stability to initial sea launch platforms. Like those canoe-like boats in the south Pacific with torpedo-shaped floats to one side to add stability.
I think the four leg f9 approach is best as it is proven and has a simple shock absorber which could be modified for re-use and uneven ground landings . Also, by the time the legs extend, the speed is slow enough that the grid fins don't do that much anymore, so turbulence on them wouldn't be much of an issue
Will the engines actually gimble individually like in 12:22? That would enable SH to roll by gimbal control
Great content as always! We look up to SN8 flight test.
Your a champ mate. Keep it up. 👍🏻
They need some give in the legs, so I suspect that even if they do go for static legs there will be at least small feet that have a suspension system that will deploy out by roughly half a meter to absorb the shock of landing.