UPDATE: So a friend informed me of a method to get the Cheato Page in the Ancient Swimming Baths without backtracking, by using solo Banjo and the Pack Whack Jump to reach the ledge with the page. I qualify this as a shortcut so as long as you count those, it is possible to collect all 25 Cheato Pages without backtracking! (Thanks to Neotornado for pointing this out!) ALSO guys, I get it: you can get the Cheato Page on the sign in Glitter Gulch Mine by using the rope, I literally talk about that later in the video, watch the full thing before commenting on stuff that I "forgot" please.
You can also collect the cheato page at the entrance in Glitter Gulch Mine without the spring jump boots by climbing the rope at the entrance, jumping off of it at a certain height and then grabbing the ledge allowing you to get the cheato page early. Also for the cheato page in Dippy's pool in Terrydactleland, you can get it by using a clock work Kazooie egg. You don't need to fill the pool. Go in first person mode, shoot a clock work egg above the cheato page and then the egg will hatch and if you shot it in the right place it will c9llect the cheato page for you
Love Banjo Tooie, superior to the first one for me. Excellent video, and didn't know quite the few of these shortcuts. The one on Mayahem temple, the glideless jiggy on Jolly Roger Lagoon and plenty on Grunty's Industries. Fantastic work.
Thank you very much! Shoutout should go to Dubsly and Koolboyman who created the Jinjo Pattern list available as a speedrunner's resource. I just made the graphics for this video; they did the real work unpacking the patterns from the code!
I've always made the argument that backtracking isn't a problem in Tooie because you can ignore most of it and it technically becomes post-game content. Good job making the perfect video to explain that. I would've never gone this far to explain it. This video is pure gold.
I highly doubt a first-time player would be able to collect everything on his first visit of each level, as we aren't able to tell apart what is locked behind an unlearned move and what is actually just a matter of figuring out the solution. If anything, trying to grab everything you can on your first play and making these decisions of what is/isn't collectable would be way more time-consuming than backtracking. The video is a fun analysis, but Tooie's design is not excused by it.
I actually started trying this challenge a while ago, but the concept of "detour Jiggies" as you call them and, of course, Grunty Industries, stumped me so much that I wasn't sure how to proceed. Glad you figured out a rule set that works for you!
It was definitely a little tricky trying to define rules for this one! I wanted a strict set of rules while still ensuring that I could proceed through, so making the initial exception for Grunty Industries was necessary.
5:41 Wait, THAT’S how you were intended to get that? I always thought you just had to jump off the rope and grab it like that. Every walkthrough I’ve seen has people get it that way so that’s how I always did it
I really tried to find what those spring shoes were for time and time again in my first runs, left the mines after not finding the purpouse of them; then in my 100% run it hit me.
This video popped up in my feed the other day, and without watching it I decided to play through Banjo-Tooie and answer the question for myself first, just focusing on getting 70 Jiggies. Here are my thoughts/rules I came up with: -I had looser rules about the Isle O'Hags; since it's required to go through each area of the isle multiple times, I didn't consider anything you do in them to be backtracking. (I did not go back into Spiral Mountain for anything though, since you're not required to go there again.) -I didn't consider leaving a world to go to the isle and going back into the same world to be backtracking; I see that more as sidetracking than backtracking. So I got the Styracosaurus family Jiggy, since you can take the train to the Cliff Top, use Mumbo, and then take the train right back to Terrydactyland. -If you consider the first two points to be valid, they solve the issue of needing to backtrack into Terrydactyland to take the train into Grunty Industries, since you can just call the train to the Isle O'Hags stop instead. -I avoided the same detours that you did, and I got 71 Jiggies (with 3 Jinjo families incomplete on my playthrough). -I have thoughts on the detours though. Even though I chose not to get them when I played in order to see how many Jiggies I could get under the strictest definition of "don't go back into a world once you've entered another", I don't really see most of them as truly backtracking. This is because a lot of them go into a blocked-off room in their world, where you can only access it via another world. So for example, the Hailfire Peaks oil drill Jiggy is technically backtracking, but you're just entering an otherwise inaccessible room in Grunty Industries and then going right back to Hailfire Peaks. So I think you could get that, the Mayahem Temple treasure Jiggy, and the 2 Jinjos through the pipes in Jolly Roger's Lagoon, as they're not what people think of as an annoying kind of backtracking. -The biggest different between your rules and mine seems to be that you define no backtracking as "once you leave a world you can't enter it again", whereas I define it as "you can't go back into a world once you've entered another". Neither definition is really better than the other, but I chose that definition because I think it gets around the type of backtracking that puts some people off while also not putting up any unnecessary hurdles for yourself (which is what I think the strictness around Isle O'Hags does, although I understand your reasoning for doing that in the context of this video). I think the way I did it will allow people who want to avoid annoying backtracking get the needed Jiggies with some wiggle room built in while also getting the most enjoyment out of the game. I write this wall of text as someone who loves the backtracking and interconnctedness of the worlds; it's probably the number one thing I love about the game. But it's always a neat challenge to try playing games in a different way, so thanks for putting this question out there, I had a lot of fun thinking about it and doing it.
Thanks for sharing! That's super cool that this inspired you to try it yourself, and it's interesting seeing what results you got from a different ruleset. Like you inferred, I purposely tried to create the strictest definition of backtracking possible, and I knew that would make the less egregious backtracking like the Styracosaurus family and entering Grunty Industries also out-of-bounds. And even getting so close to the required Jiggy count with that strict ruleset is kind of a miracle. Adding in all that sidetracking you mentioned, backtracking does become a non-issue - which is pretty fascinating.
You could argue that the Jinjo at the Glittergulch Mine entrance doesn't count as backtracking because you get the necessary move inside the mine and once you leave it you are automatically right in front of the Jinjo anyway. This would make it almost impossible to not have enough Jiggies at the end.
You've definitely got a point, I doubt anyone would reasonably call that backtracking by a normal definition. (Or if they would, it's certainly not egregious backtracking by any stretch.) I aimed for a very strict ruleset for this challenge which did block off a lot of minor cases like that Jinjo.
Great breakdown of all the information, especially the Jinjos section! Add the fact that the worlds have shortcuts to other worlds inside them and that makes most backtracking collectibles simple quick detours. Tooie is one of my favorite N64 games
The backtracking is what the game makes so much fun. There are two game structures, I'm not a big fan of (basically the most popular single player Switch games): - everything is linear, no reason to go back to a place you already have been to (Mario Odyssey) - no hard limits to go anywhere, you basically could go everywhere in any order (Zelda BotW) Having some complex dependency graph is the most important thing for a game to me. That's why I like metroidvania so much.
I haven't played 'Banjo Tooie' but most games I've played with backtracking use it for the sake of length padding. It got very tiresome in games like 'Donkey Kong 64' and 'Spyro 2' to name some examples. For games like 'Super Metroid' though, it makes perfect sense since going back and uncovering something initially unreachable with such enjoyable game feel and versatile mechanics is genuinely satisfying.
@@fictionalmediabully9830 Considering Banjo franchise has one of the most complex sets of movements in character with good animations and has wonderful textures and graphics for the n64 (and the ost is incredible), I think the backtracking was decently done and worth a shot most of the time. To me, a real Banjo Tooie problem was that while the worlds were bigger, they felt emptier without a lot of elements. I didn´t dislike it too much though, considering the darker tone of this game many decisions fitted with that
@@orangeslash1667 The problem gets much more difficult to explain, when you see all what Rare had been through with Nintendo and the bad reception to Conker. I think at that point when Rare was sold to Microsoft they probably should have started to sense what was coming for the company
@@aguilarrojasoctavio4402 Even if that does kinda explain why Nintendo didn't save Rare, I don't think this relates to Banjo because Conker was made by a separate team at Rare. If Rare made a game where Banjo was driving lego cars, instead of what the fans wanted. Then Rare may not have been able to make another Banjo adventure, without repeating the problems of Tooie.
@@Metalwario64 Tooie is the only Platformer outside Conker that felt like you were going on a big adventure. Every other was always a hub. Mario 64, a mansion, Kazooie a cave, DK64 an island etc. Actually Jak and Daxter felt like a big scale game too for the same reason as Tooie. That's part of why I loved them so much
just replayed it the past 2 weeks. I don't know what kind of quality of life stuff they added to the xbox version. But I'd have a few suggestions to reduce backtracking. -Allow us to leave stages while transformed. This was possible in BK1 and we just turned back to normal once out of Mumbo's magic range. This would be lovely in BTooie. -Actually why not just allow us to turn back to normal anytime we like. -When BK are split allow us to switch anytime we like. For a casual playthru this shudn't brake anything unless I'm missing something.. -Mumbo... am I the only one who suicides when I finish a Mumbo spell? Just allow Mumbo to tp back to his skull house anytime he likes 😆 -I would also add some signs or geometry to label cave entrances better so you don't get lost so much in GlitterGulch or Terrydactyl land where every cave looks alike.
@@iKickBullies just finished Conker's for the first time a few weeks ago. It does technically have a hub level that you constantly return to between missions. Tho I get what you mean. Especially when you enter the mountain of poop, defeat the poop, go deeper underground to the cavepeople, pee on rock people in a disco, blow up a dinosaur nest, then rocket surf race some guys and finally tame a dino to eat the caveman king. At the end of all that you still return to the hub technically 😆 Banjo Tooie's hub world isn't that different from BK1's hub world or even Mario 64's hub world since those too you keep exploring new areas. The main difference is the Isle o' Hags is comparatively much bigger and has teleporters.
Tbh, when people criticize a game that's non-linear it's "backtracking" and when they criticize a game that's too linear, it's "overly simple" but games each have their own intentional design and should be judged by if it accomplished that well. In banjo kazooie, they introduced shortcuts in gruntilda's lair as a way to reward progression, and in my opinion this concept was expanded upon in BT with the more overt train system that you unlock. So, in my mind it's hardly "backtracking" and more of an intentionally designed interconnected overworld that required a little but of meta problem-solving to totally complete. That's honestly why I think it's the better game in every way. They expanded this 3D open world platforming concept to reward high level thinking and exploration.
That’s not what people mean about back tracking this game. Find mumbo pad. Go to mumbo. Go back to mumbo pad. Go back to mumbo skull to switch back. Find switch pad. Do objective or find jam jar. Go back to split pad. Same thing with humba wumba. Not to mention the tedious dinosaur family train quest. There are so many examples of back tracking in this game. I enjoy the game but this is a huge issue for me.
@@seanduncan9310 it comes down to preference. The reasons you list here as tedious could be enjoyable or not a problem for someone else. The game also factors in all the traveling and has warp pads straight to Mumbo and Wumba, overworld silos, and chuffy.
@ you’re absolutely right. These were just issues for me personally. And yes the warp pads are definitely a god send, but in my opinion it only cuts down on the back tracking it doesn’t eliminate it. But just playing the game blind was frustrating to me because instead of finding a puzzle or whatever and instead of just solving it, it often adds multiple steps just to lengthen the section that would be just fine without them. And god forbid if you miss an objective with mumbo or transformation after you’ve changed back, you’ll have to go back and do it all over again. Like I said I enjoy the game and I’m replaying it now. Just sharing my personal experience and opinion.
@@ISoloYouRelax I think Kazooie had better level design but I think the gameplay is better in Tooie! Tooie just needed to be a little less open world and a little more content packed within those large worlds!
17:15 You can also fly into this area and collect the cheato page if you're careful not to touch the ground. Never thought about clockwork kazooies though.
I would also like to point out that the Power Hut Jiggy in Glitter Gulch Mine can also be obtained by using a flip flap ( backflip) along with the height gained from the previously mentioned beak buster (ground pound) to just jump onto the ladder at the start.
''Banjo Tooie might just be my favorite game of all time. that's not going to shock you if you've been following me for any amount of time'' Never in my life had I ever liked and subscribed faster.
Has been a while that UA-cam recommended me a "Can you beat" -type of video and I am happy that this didn't disappoint. Regarding the in-level backtracking: the only fair rule I could come up with would be "you can use Mambo or Wumba only once." Out of my mind it would mainly affect on Witchyworld's Dodgem Dome and on decision of Baby T-Rex or Daddy T-Rex. There can be more but those once came up in my mind first. Otherwise the Isle O'Hag's rule of collecting everything during the first visit could also be implemented with the other worlds. However, I think it would break too much since so many worlds are depending on the move you learn in those levels. I'll check out if you post new similar challenge videos! Recently due to the amount of Banjo content I've been watching, I started to think the minimum amount of moves needed to learn to finish Grunty's Furnace Fun. Obviously to beat the game so many Jiggies are needed thus it makes practically every move is also needed, so having the Grunty's Furnance Fun as the end point could give some room to play around while trying not to learn new moves.
16:48. I SWEAR TO GOD. AS A KID I REMEMBER TRYING TO GET THIS JIGGY WITHOUT HAVING GLIDE YET, BECAUSE IT WAS RIGHT THERE. MY BROTHER AND I SPENT SO LONG DOING IT. SEEING YOU ATTEMPT IT (well do it) AGAIN MADE IT JUST CLICK FOR ME, I UNLOCKED A DEEP DEEP MEMORY. THANK YOU.
Great video, I loved watching this experiment. Unfortunately, the main problem that I have with BT remains the same. Just because you theoretically "can" skip the backtracking doesn't mean you will be able to remember all these steps, especially on your first playthrough. Even after just watching this video and learning all these tricks, the odds are that by the time you play Banjo-Tooie again (after spending dozens or even hundreds of hours on different games), you forget most of it after the third world or so. I'm fine with backtracking in games, but the issue is that every world in BT takes a long time to complete (even longer than CCW in BK) and it compounds to making the player overwhelmed with the amount of things that must be remembered for later, not to mention the necessary steps for the jiggies that require either Mumbo, Kazooie or Banjo to be split, special transformations, advanced moves or a combination of these, in a specific order. That on top of the later worlds being supersegmented into smaller areas separated by loading screens, instead of the more open designs of the BK levels. And you having to find the mostly hidden Jam Jars silos in order to learn these advanced moves using solo Kazooie or Banjo, up to the final world of the game! That by itself makes me don't want to explore every world on the first go, before grabbing all the moves, because I can waste time on dead ends that require a move only learned on the next world, and that will require me to remember its location for a later visit, because probably I will already collected the notes that were in the way, which were a clever way to mark the places that you haven't visited yet, back in BK. Replaying BT for me is like completing Majora's Mask, while playing BK is like playing ALTTP. The first requires a completely different mindset and preparation than the second, which I can just go from start to finish in a couple hours, and even though I love both BK and BT, as I get less time for gaming, I certainly prefer the more streamlined experience of BK.
You mentioned some of the most critical points that make BT difficult to like! I agree with them all and would also add how I hate Grunty Industries with a passion. No need to make a level so convoluted and cryptic!
Was never really a fan of this game since backtracking is something that doesn’t appeal to me. I usually like collecting as much as possible without needing to comeback later for something else. Unless it’s an upgrade that’s vital toward progression I just leave somethings alone. It’s good to know it’s possible to complete the game without getting everything. I may look into B-T again in the future.
Another thing that works in BT's favor is that there's ways to move between levels without having to backtrack through the hub world. It's not exactly fixing the backtracking, but it does open alternate ways to move around without FEELING like you're going back and forth and back and forth. So it's a lot less linear, hub-based and colectathony than Banjo-Kazooie was, if any of those were part of why you were meh about it.
The backtracking itself isn't so bad either. It's not like the instance of backtracking in the first game where you have to go to the next level to get the speed shoes then go all the way back to the previous one to use them. In most cases the levels are simply tied together pretty intuitively. Not quite back tracking in the traditional sense. Sure you can't get 100% in most levels on the initial visit, but it'll naturally fill out as you play the game. (With some exception of course)
@@alexcox9400 yea the 3 transformation masks are required to access each temple. The real issue though is Ikana. You need 1. Garo mask to access the canyon 2. Captains Hat for Song of Storms which leads to... 3. Gibdo Mask for bottom of the well to get the Mirror Shield before you can clear Ikana castle. There is an exploit using bomb jumps to access the canyon without the Garo mask but otherwise im pretty sure gibdo and captains are hard required.
When most people say Banjo Tooie has a backtracking problem, I think most are referring to the constant in-level backtracking and re-exploration with every available form. Constantly having to play through a level as Banjo-Kazooie, Solo Banjo, Solo Kazooie, Mumbo, and the animal transformation can become grating. Only a step removed from the egregious decisions in Donkey Kong 64.
Gee, if only they had warp pads, silos, and a train to significantly cut down on traversal as you’re actively making progress towards completing an objective. Seriously, the process you’re describing takes a few minutes tops if you know what you’re doing and where you want to go.
@@BareBandSubscriptionThe problem is when the ‘few minutes’ happens a dozen times over the course of multiple hours of gameplay. It gets incredibly tiring sitting through the transformation cutscenes and getting to the nearest warp point when those things could just as easily be cut down with basic QOL. Sometimes the amount of downtime feels like you’re being punished for wanting to play the game.
@ That’s funny because I never ever felt that way. Like not even once. Non-linear progression is satisfying to me in this case. It’s literally just Metroidvania gameplay, and I enjoy it far more than collecting and sometimes re-collecting over 100 individual objects in every level, like with the notes in Banjo-Kazooie. You want to talk about feeling punished with busy work? Nothing in Tooie tops the note score BS in Kazooie. *That* was tedious padding.
@ well I don’t agree. In Metroid you have all of your abilities on one character, you don’t have to go to a designated room and watch a 30 second cutscene every time you want to use missiles. Yeah, if you know where everything is beforehand then you can minimise downtime, but so many times I caught myself transforming over and over because you can never tell when you’re done with something. And yeah the note system in BK was annoying but I was under the impression that it was just a hardware limitation, especially considering that they changed it in the newer versions. Doesn’t make it less annoying in the original, but still.
I think for me backtracking isn’t the problem I have with this game, it’s how vague the solutions to things are. In the first game, if you can’t get a jiggy for some reason, there’s usually some sort of silhouette of a future move necessary for backtracking. In Tooie, there’s just nothing clear about what’s necessary. It obviously becomes more clear in hindsight, but there should be some sort of sign or indication that something should be visited later
This video was absolutely necessary and you did a great job. I personally love backtracking in a game like Banjo, it feels organic and fun when you see a problem you obviously can't solve and know you'll get to learn something new to solve it at a later point. Plus, I love any excuse to visit the "beginning" of a game when you're a lot later down the line; it makes the world feel more real, like life goes on in the world after your required tasks in a place are finished, instead of other games where level 1 and then level 2, and 3, and so on, could be different universes for all we know.
8:30 its awkward to do, but I've always just flew into the room 😅 By carefully aiming oneself while flying, you can stay flying and get under the area, and then collect the paper.
This is an awesome video! And interesting concept for playing BT. Just adding a few sand grains here... There's a glitch in Glitter Gulch Mine, not really game-breaking (but not definitely intended): For the waterfall jiggy, the one with the spring shoes, while being transformed as the detonator, there is a way to grab it (it involves movement, and self-detonating). Not sure if its a N64-only glitch edit: Yes, its a N64 NSTC only thing
This video just blew my mind. The part where you explained all the "sneaky" ways you can get Jiggys are just the ways I figured out how to get them as a kid. I did not know until right now that's not how you're supposed to get those. 😂😂
@CoudConnection, I have a challenge for you. When I used to do this game back in the N64 days I would force myself to complete the Jinjo houses in reverse color order. So you cannot finish any house until you finish the black jinjo house. Next the purple house and so on until you find the one for the white house. You should try that. Another similar one I thought to do is you may ONLY collect jinjos in reverse order. So the first nine jinjos you collect MUST be black jinjos. Then you must collect the eight purple jinjos, etc. That would be a fun challenge video to watch. Great content btw. Keep up the great work.
Awesome video! I love the little sequence breaking tricks. The one in JRL where you use the shoes and flap to the jiggy seems almost like the intended strategy. If it wasn’t, I think the trick you showed is much more clever problem solving.
I have always collected that page in Glitter Gulch Mine by jumping off the rope and hovering onto it. Never even knew that was why the springy shoes were there lol.
This is so cool, great video as always. I would tweak the detour rule to apply to specific areas, so you can't go back to the Unga Bunga cave because you can access it normally, but you can do the Grunty Industry ones because you can't get into the areas where the Jiggies are in normal gameplay.
That's an interesting twist! I'm curious how much that would affect the collectable count, because that would actually mean you can collect the Hatch move since that's also in the Unga Bunga Cave. Probably a couple of other examples of that as well!
The main area of frustration is that you only had to do this once in the first game, with Gobi's Valley and Freezeezey Peak either for the running shoes or the air beak lunge. Thing is that's only if you want to go for 100%, you can just do Freezeezey Peek, collect 9/10 jiggies, obtain the diving beak lunge, and then go do Gobi's Valley and just not go back. Even with being 1 short, you can still get the item refreshers at the end, get the double health, and defeat Grunty Tooie is still great, but I've only ever completed it once, whereas with Kazooie I've completed it no less than 15 times
Wow, great job on this video! Banjo-Tooie is one of my all time favorite games, second only to Ocarina of Time, and maybe tied with Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door. I was getting ready to comment about the Cheato page in Glitter Gulch Mine being easily accessible by jumping from the rope, as well as the one in Terrydactyland with the clockwork egg, so I was happy to see you already included those as well as several shortcuts I never knew about! I will point out, you don't really get to use the Cheato pages without backtracking to Spiral Mountain, and then again to Mayahem Temple! I've never really minded the backtracking in BT but Ive been replaying it for the first time in several years thanks to NSO and I definitely find it more cumbersome now than before. As an adult with a full time job... I just don't have the endless hours for things like that the way I used to. 😅
This is really interesting! Though this doesn't solve my problems with Banjo Tooie (namely, the garbo aiming controls, the lack of a map system, the existence of playable Mumbo, and some other design choices like the order of cheats and lack of interesting minigames,) this is still really cool!
Great video. One thing I will say as a clarifying complaint regarding Banjo Tooie is this: Its not necessarily the backtracking that is the issue with the game. Its the ambiguiuity regarding WHEN certain things are obtainable and not obtainable. As a casual in my youth, I would spend a significant amount of time "trying" to obtain things, and I had no idea whether or not it was possible or impossible given my current moveset or game progress. I think the issue lay less in the backtracking itself, but not having a clear indication when playing the game as a casual what is intended to be collectable, and when your just wasting your time looking for a solution that isn't there yet. You end up wandering the game world and levels aimlessly unsure of exactly where you should be focusing on for progress
He's going through the other ways you can get Jiggies and I'm sitting here realizing those are the ways I got them as a kid (the dark room in Glitter Gulch Mine and the Jiggy by itself in Jolly Roger's Lagoon). Nice work on the vid!
At 1:52, you know if you go into the basement of this area and ram the pillars, the jiggy will jump from pillar to pillar until it's low enough to retrieve without special moves right?
One of the ways you can control in-level backtracking is by only allowing switching to Mumbo and the level transformation one time each. This is what a lot of people bring up about backtracking in BT. I think this will end up banning quite a few jiggies, I wonder if it is still possible to beat the game given that. One other way is to add a restriction that each subarea can only be visited once, but that's too strict in my opinion
Restricting Mumbo / Humba to a single use each is a really interesting idea! I can think of a few levels where that kind of restriction wouldn't change anything, but considering how tight the Jiggy count is otherwise, that could certainly make it far more of a gamble with the Jinjo spread.
@@CloudConnection what comes immediately to mind is being locked out of Dodgem Dome in Witchy World and either all of the mini rex or the big rex stuff (but I dunno, you could count them as different transformations). You are also locked out of the aliens jiggy because Mumbo revives the dad, BK drill the kids and then Mumbo needs to revive one of the kids. You are also locked out of at least one jiggy in Grunty's Industries. I think it's definitely worth a video : D If not, I might actually decide to do a run and see for myself ; )
I've never understood complaints about backtracking. Like yeah if you're constantly going back to the same places over and over and nothing really changes then it sucks, but if you're going back with new abilities and being rewarded for going out of your way then it's pretty cool. Not every game needs to be a linear series of events from start to finish where previous areas entirely cease to exist.
It would be interesting if there was an animation that featured all of the characters who were affected by this challenge looking mad that Banjo didn't help them. It is also possible to enter Grunty Industries with a glitch where you fire a Clockwork Kazooie in the window above the entrance door and go into the load zone just as the plumber enemy hits Banjo. Clockwork Kazooies can also be used to trigger the Tintop fight and you can even fire eggs as Kazooie from the platform at the window once the Clockwork Kazooie has triggered the Tintops. Also, I know that this wouldn't be allowed for the challenge, but it is also possible to get to the Oogle Boogles cave from Witchyworld just by climbing on top of the closest light pole and jumping onto the ledge.
6:04 honestly i did it without split up by turning off my lights and having high brightness(also i was playing the switch version which had save states [save states for me makes redoing stuff much quicker so i don't have to run back everytime] but still). Also at 7:02 the walkthrough i watched on youtube used the turbo talon trot, ran out while kazooie was in mid air and used wing whack. Also also at 7:58 i used banjo with the same walkthrough and used the combo jump, sack whack, jump. Also also also at 10:55 o damaged through and healed back to full with sleep sack which is in this room
Hey Cloud Connection I am playing Tooie at the Moment and i try to grab as much Jiggies, Cheato Pages, Notes and Jinjos with Mumbo as possible, Talk to every character with him and i think the world is pretty mean to him I think you are the right guy for this challenge and make a video about it
Banjo Tooie will always have a special place in my heart. I was not even in kindergarten and I played banjo Kazooie all the time. My dad asked if I wanted another video game and I asked him for Banjo Kazooie 2 (I didn’t even know it actually existed) and after I got home from school my dad pulled it out of a plastic bag. For some reason it’s engrained in my memory lol
I honestly expected the number to be a bit higher without backtracking, but that’s still a fair number, I recently replayed the game and did get a bit surprised it doesn’t have as many jiggles that require backtracking despite what people say
That’s what stumped me as a kid, I never figured out the train station stuff to get into the factory so I spent hours trying to get in with those little Kazooie bomb things.
Huh funny.. i always thought Banjo-Tooie is so much more fun because of the backtracking you can do. You dont go to a world, finish it and never come back to it. It felt so much more alive and interconnected. I loved it. And since there are fast travel plattforms and holes everywere, it isnt even that hard to go back. You can easily finish the game without the need of much backtracking and still have some harder challenges to deal with. But everyone has a diffrent taste and thats fine. For me, Banjo-Tooie>Banjo-Kazooie. Both games are amazing and one of the best games out there.
Part of me wonders about a ROM hack of this game that implements a Teleportation Room that allows players to teleport to any point in the game (and a more complete Cauldron Castle as a replacement to Cauldron Keep as it would have been originally intended).
Grunty Industries is a tough one by the rules, as you enter the world to open the train station, leave to find a train station, and then backtrack into the level to open the building...
Even with a normal playthrough, the amount of cheese that the Clockwork Kazooie Eggs bring to getting items early is insane. The Springy Step Shoe Jiggy in Glitter Gulch Mine, the Smugglers Cavern Jiggy in Jolly Roger's Lagoon, the Cliffside Jinjo in the Isle O Hags, the whole fight and Jiggy collecting without jumping to the Tintops arena in Grunty Industries and a lot more I got in my recent first ever 100% playthrough (after I finally learned how to mash well enough at the very end of the race to finally beat that Bitch Canary Mary). The total playthrough for my save file took 20 hours btw. Also a deathless Boss Rush run on hard mode (replay mode with every move in the game unlocked but no health, feather and egg ammo upgrades and no cheats) is something I want to see as a separate speed run category, maybe even damadge-less. I'm guessing no submarine either for Lord Woo Fak Fak.
The glitter gulch jiggy can be obtained even earlier by splitting up the characters and running over as Kazooie to the top of the nearby green rock pile and doing a wing flap and a spin over to the ledge.
I wouldn't count jiggies that are in sealed off areas which you can only enter from another level as backtracking. Because you've never been in that part before/can't even enter it before. To banjo, it would be a new location, wouldnt it? Wow that jinjo chart just broke my brain. 😅🤣 You can also get the smuggler cave jiggy with the timebomb-egg
I always thought it was weird that people don't like the backtracking in Banjo Tooie. I haven't played it since it came out, but it's a pretty cut and dry Metroidvania, and people love that shit!
My personal observation is that people just expected more of the same and instead got something different and more complex, not knowing how to orient their perspective or approach to the game. If they were willing to see it as a Metroidvania/Zelda/Banjo mash-up and not “Banjo-Kazooie 2”, they’d probably see the merit of it.
Rather interesting but doesn’t change my feeling on the issue. I dont think the problem is back tracking per say but more how tedious the backtracking is and how extreme in difference some effort is. Take Jolly Roger bay. You back track to hatch an egg, super simple, again to glide in a cave, super simple. But the pig pool just takes an absurd amount across 4 worlds…. Its stuff like that which grinds peoples gears as, with full knowledge and routing, even with all the moves you often need to repeat trips places to finalize stuff.
@@jonsmith5058 Do you not understand that backtracking is just fundamental to a Metroidvania structure? Just saying, I didn’t really have a problem with what you’re complaining about. Like there are warp pads and silos everywhere for fast travel. It takes mere minutes to get through the back-and-forth if you know what you’re doing (even without routing or foreknowledge), and you’re always making progress.
@@BareBandSubscriptionagain. You miss my point. Its about how tedious the backtracking is. When its done well it can be fun and natural. In Banjo Tooie its a chore. In DK64 its just apalling cause you often need to do it with multiple Kongs. Yet again, you miss the point. I do not mind backtracking. I am against tedious gameplay.
@ The backtracking isn’t tedious to me. That’s _my_ point. What you’re complaining about is entirely subjective. The game is a Metroidvania. That’s just the way it’s designed. It’s not a flaw; it’s a conscious choice that some of us like. I sincerely love the elaborate, multiple-world-spanning objectives that you’re complaining about. That’s what made Tooie innovative. DK64 is completely different backtracking altogether because it’s not meaningfully progressive. It’s just a tedious process of finding barrels to swap Kongs to pick more stuff up off the ground. There’s rarely anything elaborate, clever, or substantive in DK64’s backtracking. 99 times out of 100, it’s just the same one-note process of merely walking back and forth over the same ground in the same small space an immeasurable number of times just for colored bananas and tokens. It’s just padding. Tooie is way more complex than that. If you think the two are comparable in the conversation of backtracking, you legit don’t know what you’re talking about.
I always loved the interconnectivity of Tooie worlds, makes the setting feel more vibrant and alive. I also think it's funny that backtracking is praised in metroidvanias but not in games like this. Personally I love recontextualization, so I'm a sucker for interesting backtracking
I think my groan with the backtracking was for achievement hunting and how temperamental the FPS controls… I’ve been replaying the game recently, going for 100%, and without stressing on leaderboards … so far it’s fine, does take a bit of doing though
In glitter gulch mine I didn’t even know you needed the springy boots to get the cheeto page, I always just jumped off the rope and used Kazooie to get it
It's strange that backtracking is seen by some as just a bad thing. I understand that when done poorly, it is annoying. But backtracking itself is not inherently bad or good, it's just a design element that can be done poorly or well, and I definitely argue that it's done well in Banjo-Tooie.
![Lp. Сердце Вселенной #60 РОЖДЕНИЕ ЛОЛОЛОШКИ [Финал] • Майнкрафт](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YoR0pAV9FVQ/mqdefault.jpg)
UPDATE: So a friend informed me of a method to get the Cheato Page in the Ancient Swimming Baths without backtracking, by using solo Banjo and the Pack Whack Jump to reach the ledge with the page. I qualify this as a shortcut so as long as you count those, it is possible to collect all 25 Cheato Pages without backtracking! (Thanks to Neotornado for pointing this out!)
ALSO guys, I get it: you can get the Cheato Page on the sign in Glitter Gulch Mine by using the rope, I literally talk about that later in the video, watch the full thing before commenting on stuff that I "forgot" please.
You can also collect the cheato page at the entrance in Glitter Gulch Mine without the spring jump boots by climbing the rope at the entrance, jumping off of it at a certain height and then grabbing the ledge allowing you to get the cheato page early. Also for the cheato page in Dippy's pool in Terrydactleland, you can get it by using a clock work Kazooie egg. You don't need to fill the pool. Go in first person mode, shoot a clock work egg above the cheato page and then the egg will hatch and if you shot it in the right place it will c9llect the cheato page for you
Now stream a run doing everything without backtracking
@@Green_Stache_Productions I honestly thought that was the intended method for the GGM Cheato Page
I was literally about to comment this. I always got the cheato page that way. I didn't even know you were supposed to glide over to it lol
@@mushman1395 IKR, I honestly haven't thought about the intended method in years
Love Banjo Tooie, superior to the first one for me. Excellent video, and didn't know quite the few of these shortcuts. The one on Mayahem temple, the glideless jiggy on Jolly Roger Lagoon and plenty on Grunty's Industries. Fantastic work.
The Jinjo analysis was unbelievably thorough. Great video!
Thank you very much! Shoutout should go to Dubsly and Koolboyman who created the Jinjo Pattern list available as a speedrunner's resource. I just made the graphics for this video; they did the real work unpacking the patterns from the code!
I've always made the argument that backtracking isn't a problem in Tooie because you can ignore most of it and it technically becomes post-game content. Good job making the perfect video to explain that. I would've never gone this far to explain it. This video is pure gold.
Not doing it doesn’t make it post game content? What the fuck?
@@mathewpercy3292 Yeah, once you beat the game maybe you´re much more up to randomly explore the worlds rather than be worry about advancing
I highly doubt a first-time player would be able to collect everything on his first visit of each level, as we aren't able to tell apart what is locked behind an unlearned move and what is actually just a matter of figuring out the solution.
If anything, trying to grab everything you can on your first play and making these decisions of what is/isn't collectable would be way more time-consuming than backtracking.
The video is a fun analysis, but Tooie's design is not excused by it.
LMAO. Seeing people argue about backtracking, but liking it in rpgs!
@@poudink5791"crappy" lol
I actually started trying this challenge a while ago, but the concept of "detour Jiggies" as you call them and, of course, Grunty Industries, stumped me so much that I wasn't sure how to proceed. Glad you figured out a rule set that works for you!
It was definitely a little tricky trying to define rules for this one! I wanted a strict set of rules while still ensuring that I could proceed through, so making the initial exception for Grunty Industries was necessary.
5:41 Wait, THAT’S how you were intended to get that? I always thought you just had to jump off the rope and grab it like that. Every walkthrough I’ve seen has people get it that way so that’s how I always did it
Same, ever since the year 2000 when I was 5, I've done it that way.
The first thing I tried as a kid was getting high on the rope to simply float down on top of it.
No backtracking needed!
I had a Nintendo power that said you could just jump at the page off the rope
I really tried to find what those spring shoes were for time and time again in my first runs, left the mines after not finding the purpouse of them; then in my 100% run it hit me.
They’re both intended methods. The spring shoes are just for the uncreative people revisiting the world.
This video popped up in my feed the other day, and without watching it I decided to play through Banjo-Tooie and answer the question for myself first, just focusing on getting 70 Jiggies. Here are my thoughts/rules I came up with:
-I had looser rules about the Isle O'Hags; since it's required to go through each area of the isle multiple times, I didn't consider anything you do in them to be backtracking. (I did not go back into Spiral Mountain for anything though, since you're not required to go there again.)
-I didn't consider leaving a world to go to the isle and going back into the same world to be backtracking; I see that more as sidetracking than backtracking. So I got the Styracosaurus family Jiggy, since you can take the train to the Cliff Top, use Mumbo, and then take the train right back to Terrydactyland.
-If you consider the first two points to be valid, they solve the issue of needing to backtrack into Terrydactyland to take the train into Grunty Industries, since you can just call the train to the Isle O'Hags stop instead.
-I avoided the same detours that you did, and I got 71 Jiggies (with 3 Jinjo families incomplete on my playthrough).
-I have thoughts on the detours though. Even though I chose not to get them when I played in order to see how many Jiggies I could get under the strictest definition of "don't go back into a world once you've entered another", I don't really see most of them as truly backtracking. This is because a lot of them go into a blocked-off room in their world, where you can only access it via another world. So for example, the Hailfire Peaks oil drill Jiggy is technically backtracking, but you're just entering an otherwise inaccessible room in Grunty Industries and then going right back to Hailfire Peaks. So I think you could get that, the Mayahem Temple treasure Jiggy, and the 2 Jinjos through the pipes in Jolly Roger's Lagoon, as they're not what people think of as an annoying kind of backtracking.
-The biggest different between your rules and mine seems to be that you define no backtracking as "once you leave a world you can't enter it again", whereas I define it as "you can't go back into a world once you've entered another". Neither definition is really better than the other, but I chose that definition because I think it gets around the type of backtracking that puts some people off while also not putting up any unnecessary hurdles for yourself (which is what I think the strictness around Isle O'Hags does, although I understand your reasoning for doing that in the context of this video). I think the way I did it will allow people who want to avoid annoying backtracking get the needed Jiggies with some wiggle room built in while also getting the most enjoyment out of the game.
I write this wall of text as someone who loves the backtracking and interconnctedness of the worlds; it's probably the number one thing I love about the game. But it's always a neat challenge to try playing games in a different way, so thanks for putting this question out there, I had a lot of fun thinking about it and doing it.
Thanks for sharing! That's super cool that this inspired you to try it yourself, and it's interesting seeing what results you got from a different ruleset.
Like you inferred, I purposely tried to create the strictest definition of backtracking possible, and I knew that would make the less egregious backtracking like the Styracosaurus family and entering Grunty Industries also out-of-bounds. And even getting so close to the required Jiggy count with that strict ruleset is kind of a miracle. Adding in all that sidetracking you mentioned, backtracking does become a non-issue - which is pretty fascinating.
You could argue that the Jinjo at the Glittergulch Mine entrance doesn't count as backtracking because you get the necessary move inside the mine and once you leave it you are automatically right in front of the Jinjo anyway. This would make it almost impossible to not have enough Jiggies at the end.
You've definitely got a point, I doubt anyone would reasonably call that backtracking by a normal definition. (Or if they would, it's certainly not egregious backtracking by any stretch.) I aimed for a very strict ruleset for this challenge which did block off a lot of minor cases like that Jinjo.
Tbf, the same could be said about the claw clamber boots jinjo, as you need to return to the cliff top to get to hail fire peaks.
Congrats on making a cameo appearance in the newest Game Maker's Toolkit video! (29:40 in the new Boss Keys video on Banjo-Kazooie & Tooie)
Great breakdown of all the information, especially the Jinjos section! Add the fact that the worlds have shortcuts to other worlds inside them and that makes most backtracking collectibles simple quick detours. Tooie is one of my favorite N64 games
The backtracking is what the game makes so much fun.
There are two game structures, I'm not a big fan of (basically the most popular single player Switch games):
- everything is linear, no reason to go back to a place you already have been to (Mario Odyssey)
- no hard limits to go anywhere, you basically could go everywhere in any order (Zelda BotW)
Having some complex dependency graph is the most important thing for a game to me. That's why I like metroidvania so much.
I haven't played 'Banjo Tooie' but most games I've played with backtracking use it for the sake of length padding. It got very tiresome in games like 'Donkey Kong 64' and 'Spyro 2' to name some examples.
For games like 'Super Metroid' though, it makes perfect sense since going back and uncovering something initially unreachable with such enjoyable game feel and versatile mechanics is genuinely satisfying.
@@fictionalmediabully9830 Considering Banjo franchise has one of the most complex sets of movements in character with good animations and has wonderful textures and graphics for the n64 (and the ost is incredible), I think the backtracking was decently done and worth a shot most of the time. To me, a real Banjo Tooie problem was that while the worlds were bigger, they felt emptier without a lot of elements. I didn´t dislike it too much though, considering the darker tone of this game many decisions fitted with that
@@aguilarrojasoctavio4402 This explains why Rare gave up on the series.
@@orangeslash1667 The problem gets much more difficult to explain, when you see all what Rare had been through with Nintendo and the bad reception to Conker. I think at that point when Rare was sold to Microsoft they probably should have started to sense what was coming for the company
@@aguilarrojasoctavio4402 Even if that does kinda explain why Nintendo didn't save Rare, I don't think this relates to Banjo because Conker was made by a separate team at Rare.
If Rare made a game where Banjo was driving lego cars, instead of what the fans wanted. Then Rare may not have been able to make another Banjo adventure, without repeating the problems of Tooie.
Banjo Tooie is my favorite game ever, I don’t mind backtracking at all!
Yes, I actually love the sense of scale of Tooie.
@@Metalwario64 Tooie is the only Platformer outside Conker that felt like you were going on a big adventure. Every other was always a hub. Mario 64, a mansion, Kazooie a cave, DK64 an island etc. Actually Jak and Daxter felt like a big scale game too for the same reason as Tooie. That's part of why I loved them so much
just replayed it the past 2 weeks.
I don't know what kind of quality of life stuff they added to the xbox version. But I'd have a few suggestions to reduce backtracking.
-Allow us to leave stages while transformed. This was possible in BK1 and we just turned back to normal once out of Mumbo's magic range. This would be lovely in BTooie.
-Actually why not just allow us to turn back to normal anytime we like.
-When BK are split allow us to switch anytime we like. For a casual playthru this shudn't brake anything unless I'm missing something..
-Mumbo... am I the only one who suicides when I finish a Mumbo spell? Just allow Mumbo to tp back to his skull house anytime he likes 😆
-I would also add some signs or geometry to label cave entrances better so you don't get lost so much in GlitterGulch or Terrydactyl land where every cave looks alike.
@@iKickBullies just finished Conker's for the first time a few weeks ago.
It does technically have a hub level that you constantly return to between missions. Tho I get what you mean.
Especially when you enter the mountain of poop, defeat the poop, go deeper underground to the cavepeople, pee on rock people in a disco, blow up a dinosaur nest, then rocket surf race some guys and finally tame a dino to eat the caveman king. At the end of all that you still return to the hub technically 😆
Banjo Tooie's hub world isn't that different from BK1's hub world or even Mario 64's hub world since those too you keep exploring new areas. The main difference is the Isle o' Hags is comparatively much bigger and has teleporters.
Same!! The size of the game and the backtracking is one of the reasons i love it :)
Tbh, when people criticize a game that's non-linear it's "backtracking" and when they criticize a game that's too linear, it's "overly simple" but games each have their own intentional design and should be judged by if it accomplished that well. In banjo kazooie, they introduced shortcuts in gruntilda's lair as a way to reward progression, and in my opinion this concept was expanded upon in BT with the more overt train system that you unlock. So, in my mind it's hardly "backtracking" and more of an intentionally designed interconnected overworld that required a little but of meta problem-solving to totally complete. That's honestly why I think it's the better game in every way. They expanded this 3D open world platforming concept to reward high level thinking and exploration.
That’s not what people mean about back tracking this game. Find mumbo pad. Go to mumbo. Go back to mumbo pad. Go back to mumbo skull to switch back. Find switch pad. Do objective or find jam jar. Go back to split pad. Same thing with humba wumba. Not to mention the tedious dinosaur family train quest. There are so many examples of back tracking in this game. I enjoy the game but this is a huge issue for me.
@@seanduncan9310 it comes down to preference. The reasons you list here as tedious could be enjoyable or not a problem for someone else. The game also factors in all the traveling and has warp pads straight to Mumbo and Wumba, overworld silos, and chuffy.
@ you’re absolutely right. These were just issues for me personally. And yes the warp pads are definitely a god send, but in my opinion it only cuts down on the back tracking it doesn’t eliminate it. But just playing the game blind was frustrating to me because instead of finding a puzzle or whatever and instead of just solving it, it often adds multiple steps just to lengthen the section that would be just fine without them. And god forbid if you miss an objective with mumbo or transformation after you’ve changed back, you’ll have to go back and do it all over again. Like I said I enjoy the game and I’m replaying it now. Just sharing my personal experience and opinion.
As a fellow Banjo-Tooie lover (there are dozens of us! Dozens!!), this was a really great video!
AGREED BEST GAME EVER! WE NEED BANJO THREEIE!
Yes, yes we do. Now more than ever
I personally like banjo-kazooie more than tooie but I whole heartily agree that we need threeie.
@@ISoloYouRelax I think Kazooie had better level design but I think the gameplay is better in Tooie! Tooie just needed to be a little less open world and a little more content packed within those large worlds!
17:15 You can also fly into this area and collect the cheato page if you're careful not to touch the ground. Never thought about clockwork kazooies though.
I would also like to point out that the Power Hut Jiggy in Glitter Gulch Mine can also be obtained by using a flip flap ( backflip) along with the height gained from the previously mentioned beak buster (ground pound) to just jump onto the ladder at the start.
This is too strict, isle o hags should be an exception to the rules since it’s a hub world
This is some seriously Quality Content. Always glad to see Tooie getting love
Im lets playing it on my channel if you care!
It’s my all time favorite n64 game I really hope they put it in the Nintendo 64 expansion pack !
Here's hoping!
That aged surprisingly well
''Banjo Tooie might just be my favorite game of all time. that's not going to shock you if you've been following me for any amount of time''
Never in my life had I ever liked and subscribed faster.
Has been a while that UA-cam recommended me a "Can you beat" -type of video and I am happy that this didn't disappoint.
Regarding the in-level backtracking: the only fair rule I could come up with would be "you can use Mambo or Wumba only once." Out of my mind it would mainly affect on Witchyworld's Dodgem Dome and on decision of Baby T-Rex or Daddy T-Rex. There can be more but those once came up in my mind first.
Otherwise the Isle O'Hag's rule of collecting everything during the first visit could also be implemented with the other worlds. However, I think it would break too much since so many worlds are depending on the move you learn in those levels.
I'll check out if you post new similar challenge videos! Recently due to the amount of Banjo content I've been watching, I started to think the minimum amount of moves needed to learn to finish Grunty's Furnace Fun. Obviously to beat the game so many Jiggies are needed thus it makes practically every move is also needed, so having the Grunty's Furnance Fun as the end point could give some room to play around while trying not to learn new moves.
16:48. I SWEAR TO GOD. AS A KID I REMEMBER TRYING TO GET THIS JIGGY WITHOUT HAVING GLIDE YET, BECAUSE IT WAS RIGHT THERE. MY BROTHER AND I SPENT SO LONG DOING IT. SEEING YOU ATTEMPT IT (well do it) AGAIN MADE IT JUST CLICK FOR ME, I UNLOCKED A DEEP DEEP MEMORY. THANK YOU.
Great video, I loved watching this experiment. Unfortunately, the main problem that I have with BT remains the same. Just because you theoretically "can" skip the backtracking doesn't mean you will be able to remember all these steps, especially on your first playthrough. Even after just watching this video and learning all these tricks, the odds are that by the time you play Banjo-Tooie again (after spending dozens or even hundreds of hours on different games), you forget most of it after the third world or so.
I'm fine with backtracking in games, but the issue is that every world in BT takes a long time to complete (even longer than CCW in BK) and it compounds to making the player overwhelmed with the amount of things that must be remembered for later, not to mention the necessary steps for the jiggies that require either Mumbo, Kazooie or Banjo to be split, special transformations, advanced moves or a combination of these, in a specific order.
That on top of the later worlds being supersegmented into smaller areas separated by loading screens, instead of the more open designs of the BK levels. And you having to find the mostly hidden Jam Jars silos in order to learn these advanced moves using solo Kazooie or Banjo, up to the final world of the game! That by itself makes me don't want to explore every world on the first go, before grabbing all the moves, because I can waste time on dead ends that require a move only learned on the next world, and that will require me to remember its location for a later visit, because probably I will already collected the notes that were in the way, which were a clever way to mark the places that you haven't visited yet, back in BK.
Replaying BT for me is like completing Majora's Mask, while playing BK is like playing ALTTP. The first requires a completely different mindset and preparation than the second, which I can just go from start to finish in a couple hours, and even though I love both BK and BT, as I get less time for gaming, I certainly prefer the more streamlined experience of BK.
You mentioned some of the most critical points that make BT difficult to like! I agree with them all and would also add how I hate Grunty Industries with a passion. No need to make a level so convoluted and cryptic!
Was never really a fan of this game since backtracking is something that doesn’t appeal to me. I usually like collecting as much as possible without needing to comeback later for something else. Unless it’s an upgrade that’s vital toward progression I just leave somethings alone.
It’s good to know it’s possible to complete the game without getting everything.
I may look into B-T again in the future.
Another thing that works in BT's favor is that there's ways to move between levels without having to backtrack through the hub world. It's not exactly fixing the backtracking, but it does open alternate ways to move around without FEELING like you're going back and forth and back and forth.
So it's a lot less linear, hub-based and colectathony than Banjo-Kazooie was, if any of those were part of why you were meh about it.
it's a sick game, definitely holds up well!
The backtracking itself isn't so bad either. It's not like the instance of backtracking in the first game where you have to go to the next level to get the speed shoes then go all the way back to the previous one to use them. In most cases the levels are simply tied together pretty intuitively. Not quite back tracking in the traditional sense. Sure you can't get 100% in most levels on the initial visit, but it'll naturally fill out as you play the game. (With some exception of course)
great game dont miss out over a silly rule
This made my day! What a great experiment. Next do Majora`s Mask without masks :D
That's an interesting idea 🤔
Including transformation masks? I don’t think that’s possible because stone tower temple. Probably some other things too
@@alexcox9400 yea the 3 transformation masks are required to access each temple.
The real issue though is Ikana. You need
1. Garo mask to access the canyon
2. Captains Hat for Song of Storms which leads to...
3. Gibdo Mask for bottom of the well to get the Mirror Shield before you can clear Ikana castle.
There is an exploit using bomb jumps to access the canyon without the Garo mask but otherwise im pretty sure gibdo and captains are hard required.
When most people say Banjo Tooie has a backtracking problem, I think most are referring to the constant in-level backtracking and re-exploration with every available form. Constantly having to play through a level as Banjo-Kazooie, Solo Banjo, Solo Kazooie, Mumbo, and the animal transformation can become grating. Only a step removed from the egregious decisions in Donkey Kong 64.
Would only be a problem if you ignored the obvious warp pad adjacent to every one of those situations.
Gee, if only they had warp pads, silos, and a train to significantly cut down on traversal as you’re actively making progress towards completing an objective. Seriously, the process you’re describing takes a few minutes tops if you know what you’re doing and where you want to go.
@@BareBandSubscriptionThe problem is when the ‘few minutes’ happens a dozen times over the course of multiple hours of gameplay. It gets incredibly tiring sitting through the transformation cutscenes and getting to the nearest warp point when those things could just as easily be cut down with basic QOL. Sometimes the amount of downtime feels like you’re being punished for wanting to play the game.
@
That’s funny because I never ever felt that way. Like not even once. Non-linear progression is satisfying to me in this case. It’s literally just Metroidvania gameplay, and I enjoy it far more than collecting and sometimes re-collecting over 100 individual objects in every level, like with the notes in Banjo-Kazooie. You want to talk about feeling punished with busy work? Nothing in Tooie tops the note score BS in Kazooie. *That* was tedious padding.
@ well I don’t agree. In Metroid you have all of your abilities on one character, you don’t have to go to a designated room and watch a 30 second cutscene every time you want to use missiles. Yeah, if you know where everything is beforehand then you can minimise downtime, but so many times I caught myself transforming over and over because you can never tell when you’re done with something. And yeah the note system in BK was annoying but I was under the impression that it was just a hardware limitation, especially considering that they changed it in the newer versions. Doesn’t make it less annoying in the original, but still.
This is a pretty interesting concept! Excited to watch this! Will probably comment more later! Thanks for uploading!
I think for me backtracking isn’t the problem I have with this game, it’s how vague the solutions to things are. In the first game, if you can’t get a jiggy for some reason, there’s usually some sort of silhouette of a future move necessary for backtracking. In Tooie, there’s just nothing clear about what’s necessary. It obviously becomes more clear in hindsight, but there should be some sort of sign or indication that something should be visited later
This video was absolutely necessary and you did a great job. I personally love backtracking in a game like Banjo, it feels organic and fun when you see a problem you obviously can't solve and know you'll get to learn something new to solve it at a later point. Plus, I love any excuse to visit the "beginning" of a game when you're a lot later down the line; it makes the world feel more real, like life goes on in the world after your required tasks in a place are finished, instead of other games where level 1 and then level 2, and 3, and so on, could be different universes for all we know.
Thank you for bringing a long overdue justice for Banjo-Tooie.
8:30 its awkward to do, but I've always just flew into the room 😅 By carefully aiming oneself while flying, you can stay flying and get under the area, and then collect the paper.
I’ve done this too lol. It’s insanely annoying and unnecessary to do it that way, but it’s doable and gets it done really early.
This is a really well put-together video. Thanks for the info!!!
This is an awesome video! And interesting concept for playing BT. Just adding a few sand grains here...
There's a glitch in Glitter Gulch Mine, not really game-breaking (but not definitely intended): For the waterfall jiggy, the one with the spring shoes, while being transformed as the detonator, there is a way to grab it (it involves movement, and self-detonating). Not sure if its a N64-only glitch
edit: Yes, its a N64 NSTC only thing
Impressive display, my good chum. Bravo!
One of my favorite N64 games. Still remember getting it for Christmas in 2000 and spending all night playing it with my brother.
This was a fun change in video! I wouldnt mind these challengesque runs once in a while from you!
You can get the cheato page in Jolly Rodgers’s lagoon by using banjos double jump
This video just blew my mind. The part where you explained all the "sneaky" ways you can get Jiggys are just the ways I figured out how to get them as a kid. I did not know until right now that's not how you're supposed to get those. 😂😂
I actually love the complexity of the games mapping. It was a great contrast to a fairly linear first game.
It's funny that all the "complaints" people have about the game are things I love about it.
The cheato page on the glitter gulch mine can be collected without the spring shoes OR glitching, climb up the rope, jump off and flap over to it
Amazing video. Really fascinating to watch!
@CoudConnection, I have a challenge for you. When I used to do this game back in the N64 days I would force myself to complete the Jinjo houses in reverse color order. So you cannot finish any house until you finish the black jinjo house. Next the purple house and so on until you find the one for the white house. You should try that. Another similar one I thought to do is you may ONLY collect jinjos in reverse order. So the first nine jinjos you collect MUST be black jinjos. Then you must collect the eight purple jinjos, etc. That would be a fun challenge video to watch. Great content btw. Keep up the great work.
Awesome video! I love the little sequence breaking tricks. The one in JRL where you use the shoes and flap to the jiggy seems almost like the intended strategy. If it wasn’t, I think the trick you showed is much more clever problem solving.
I have always collected that page in Glitter Gulch Mine by jumping off the rope and hovering onto it. Never even knew that was why the springy shoes were there lol.
This is so cool, great video as always. I would tweak the detour rule to apply to specific areas, so you can't go back to the Unga Bunga cave because you can access it normally, but you can do the Grunty Industry ones because you can't get into the areas where the Jiggies are in normal gameplay.
That's an interesting twist! I'm curious how much that would affect the collectable count, because that would actually mean you can collect the Hatch move since that's also in the Unga Bunga Cave. Probably a couple of other examples of that as well!
The main area of frustration is that you only had to do this once in the first game, with Gobi's Valley and Freezeezey Peak either for the running shoes or the air beak lunge. Thing is that's only if you want to go for 100%, you can just do Freezeezey Peek, collect 9/10 jiggies, obtain the diving beak lunge, and then go do Gobi's Valley and just not go back. Even with being 1 short, you can still get the item refreshers at the end, get the double health, and defeat Grunty
Tooie is still great, but I've only ever completed it once, whereas with Kazooie I've completed it no less than 15 times
Wow, great job on this video! Banjo-Tooie is one of my all time favorite games, second only to Ocarina of Time, and maybe tied with Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door.
I was getting ready to comment about the Cheato page in Glitter Gulch Mine being easily accessible by jumping from the rope, as well as the one in Terrydactyland with the clockwork egg, so I was happy to see you already included those as well as several shortcuts I never knew about!
I will point out, you don't really get to use the Cheato pages without backtracking to Spiral Mountain, and then again to Mayahem Temple! I've never really minded the backtracking in BT but Ive been replaying it for the first time in several years thanks to NSO and I definitely find it more cumbersome now than before. As an adult with a full time job... I just don't have the endless hours for things like that the way I used to. 😅
I enjoy the backtracking in Banjo-Tooie. It is a great feeling to solve the puzzle as the developers intended and get your Jiggy.
Fascinating! I love your Jinjo pattern chart. Thanks for all your hard work on this!
16:49 You can easily get this with just run and feathery flap, wing whack just like you did without even needing the shoes.
This is really interesting! Though this doesn't solve my problems with Banjo Tooie (namely, the garbo aiming controls, the lack of a map system, the existence of playable Mumbo, and some other design choices like the order of cheats and lack of interesting minigames,) this is still really cool!
This reminds me of when I did a play-through without using Mumbo or transformations.
Love the variation in content mate, this video absolutely slaps!
Thanks buddy!
That is an impressive amount of effort and research you put into this video. Well done!
I’d consider a jiggy like the relic in unga bunga cave non back tracking since you don’t get the “totals” screen for terrydactyland at that point.
Great video.
One thing I will say as a clarifying complaint regarding Banjo Tooie is this:
Its not necessarily the backtracking that is the issue with the game. Its the ambiguiuity regarding WHEN certain things are obtainable and not obtainable. As a casual in my youth, I would spend a significant amount of time "trying" to obtain things, and I had no idea whether or not it was possible or impossible given my current moveset or game progress.
I think the issue lay less in the backtracking itself, but not having a clear indication when playing the game as a casual what is intended to be collectable, and when your just wasting your time looking for a solution that isn't there yet.
You end up wandering the game world and levels aimlessly unsure of exactly where you should be focusing on for progress
I'm sure someone has mentioned it already but the Cheato page in Dippy's watering hole can also be collected by just flying down into the hole.
That's actually incredibly ingenious, and I'm not sure why I never thought of that!
Banjo-Tooie is one of my favorite games ever, and your videos are always entertaining and educational! Very fun watch, thank you!
He's going through the other ways you can get Jiggies and I'm sitting here realizing those are the ways I got them as a kid (the dark room in Glitter Gulch Mine and the Jiggy by itself in Jolly Roger's Lagoon). Nice work on the vid!
That is soo fun to watch! Thanks a lot! Also nice to see all these tricks!
Since the worlds are so lovely, the backtracking is not a bad thing for me❤
Great run & analysis video! A very original challenge! Thanks for uploading!
At 1:52, you know if you go into the basement of this area and ram the pillars, the jiggy will jump from pillar to pillar until it's low enough to retrieve without special moves right?
You can't get into that area without the Bill Drill, which you get in a later world. So you can't do that with no backtracking.
Very thorough and great video. Tooie is the best!
One of the ways you can control in-level backtracking is by only allowing switching to Mumbo and the level transformation one time each. This is what a lot of people bring up about backtracking in BT. I think this will end up banning quite a few jiggies, I wonder if it is still possible to beat the game given that.
One other way is to add a restriction that each subarea can only be visited once, but that's too strict in my opinion
Restricting Mumbo / Humba to a single use each is a really interesting idea! I can think of a few levels where that kind of restriction wouldn't change anything, but considering how tight the Jiggy count is otherwise, that could certainly make it far more of a gamble with the Jinjo spread.
@@CloudConnection what comes immediately to mind is being locked out of Dodgem Dome in Witchy World and either all of the mini rex or the big rex stuff (but I dunno, you could count them as different transformations).
You are also locked out of the aliens jiggy because Mumbo revives the dad, BK drill the kids and then Mumbo needs to revive one of the kids.
You are also locked out of at least one jiggy in Grunty's Industries.
I think it's definitely worth a video : D
If not, I might actually decide to do a run and see for myself ; )
This video single handed convinced me to subscribe
I've never understood complaints about backtracking. Like yeah if you're constantly going back to the same places over and over and nothing really changes then it sucks, but if you're going back with new abilities and being rewarded for going out of your way then it's pretty cool. Not every game needs to be a linear series of events from start to finish where previous areas entirely cease to exist.
I liked the video when I saw that Jinjo anaylisis, so sick jajaja, good video.
Loved this video, so much effort put into.
I didn’t “watch” can you beat banjo tooie without backtracking, I sat my white ass down and LISTENED
It would be interesting if there was an animation that featured all of the characters who were affected by this challenge looking mad that Banjo didn't help them. It is also possible to enter Grunty Industries with a glitch where you fire a Clockwork Kazooie in the window above the entrance door and go into the load zone just as the plumber enemy hits Banjo. Clockwork Kazooies can also be used to trigger the Tintop fight and you can even fire eggs as Kazooie from the platform at the window once the Clockwork Kazooie has triggered the Tintops.
Also, I know that this wouldn't be allowed for the challenge, but it is also possible to get to the Oogle Boogles cave from Witchyworld just by climbing on top of the closest light pole and jumping onto the ledge.
6:04 honestly i did it without split up by turning off my lights and having high brightness(also i was playing the switch version which had save states [save states for me makes redoing stuff much quicker so i don't have to run back everytime] but still).
Also at 7:02 the walkthrough i watched on youtube used the turbo talon trot, ran out while kazooie was in mid air and used wing whack.
Also also at 7:58 i used banjo with the same walkthrough and used the combo jump, sack whack, jump.
Also also also at 10:55 o damaged through and healed back to full with sleep sack which is in this room
Surprised you didn't divide each level into their warp points, I bet you could do some very fun routing that way
Hey Cloud Connection
I am playing Tooie at the Moment and i try to grab as much Jiggies, Cheato Pages, Notes and Jinjos with Mumbo as possible,
Talk to every character with him and i think the world is pretty mean to him
I think you are the right guy for this challenge and make a video about it
Banjo Tooie will always have a special place in my heart. I was not even in kindergarten and I played banjo Kazooie all the time. My dad asked if I wanted another video game and I asked him for Banjo Kazooie 2 (I didn’t even know it actually existed) and after I got home from school my dad pulled it out of a plastic bag. For some reason it’s engrained in my memory lol
MUCH RESPECT DUDE!!! I love this game too and this challenge is AMAZING!!!
I honestly expected the number to be a bit higher without backtracking, but that’s still a fair number, I recently replayed the game and did get a bit surprised it doesn’t have as many jiggles that require backtracking despite what people say
18:24 Can also launch a clockwork at the light and collect the jiggy without doing the fight at all.
That’s what stumped me as a kid, I never figured out the train station stuff to get into the factory so I spent hours trying to get in with those little Kazooie bomb things.
Huh funny.. i always thought Banjo-Tooie is so much more fun because of the backtracking you can do.
You dont go to a world, finish it and never come back to it. It felt so much more alive and interconnected. I loved it.
And since there are fast travel plattforms and holes everywere, it isnt even that hard to go back.
You can easily finish the game without the need of much backtracking and still have some harder challenges to deal with.
But everyone has a diffrent taste and thats fine.
For me, Banjo-Tooie>Banjo-Kazooie.
Both games are amazing and one of the best games out there.
Kazooie better
@@iTvngo
Kazooie padded out by BS note score and tedious collecting. Way less depth than Tooie.
Part of me wonders about a ROM hack of this game that implements a Teleportation Room that allows players to teleport to any point in the game (and a more complete Cauldron Castle as a replacement to Cauldron Keep as it would have been originally intended).
Grunty Industries is a tough one by the rules, as you enter the world to open the train station, leave to find a train station, and then backtrack into the level to open the building...
Even with a normal playthrough, the amount of cheese that the Clockwork Kazooie Eggs bring to getting items early is insane. The Springy Step Shoe Jiggy in Glitter Gulch Mine, the Smugglers Cavern Jiggy in Jolly Roger's Lagoon, the Cliffside Jinjo in the Isle O Hags, the whole fight and Jiggy collecting without jumping to the Tintops arena in Grunty Industries and a lot more I got in my recent first ever 100% playthrough (after I finally learned how to mash well enough at the very end of the race to finally beat that Bitch Canary Mary). The total playthrough for my save file took 20 hours btw. Also a deathless Boss Rush run on hard mode (replay mode with every move in the game unlocked but no health, feather and egg ammo upgrades and no cheats) is something I want to see as a separate speed run category, maybe even damadge-less. I'm guessing no submarine either for Lord Woo Fak Fak.
The glitter gulch jiggy can be obtained even earlier by splitting up the characters and running over as Kazooie to the top of the nearby green rock pile and doing a wing flap and a spin over to the ledge.
I think I've learned a bit more about Banjo-Tooie then I ever thought I would
At 10:38 you can also shoot one of those robot eggs at this and collect it easier
5:45 cheato page DOES NOT require any move… just climb the rope and jump from a point that is near the top of the rope to land on the beam…
Loved your video. You deserve a million subscribers.
I wouldn't count jiggies that are in sealed off areas which you can only enter from another level as backtracking. Because you've never been in that part before/can't even enter it before. To banjo, it would be a new location, wouldnt it?
Wow that jinjo chart just broke my brain. 😅🤣
You can also get the smuggler cave jiggy with the timebomb-egg
I always thought it was weird that people don't like the backtracking in Banjo Tooie. I haven't played it since it came out, but it's a pretty cut and dry Metroidvania, and people love that shit!
My personal observation is that people just expected more of the same and instead got something different and more complex, not knowing how to orient their perspective or approach to the game. If they were willing to see it as a Metroidvania/Zelda/Banjo mash-up and not “Banjo-Kazooie 2”, they’d probably see the merit of it.
Rather interesting but doesn’t change my feeling on the issue.
I dont think the problem is back tracking per say but more how tedious the backtracking is and how extreme in difference some effort is.
Take Jolly Roger bay. You back track to hatch an egg, super simple, again to glide in a cave, super simple.
But the pig pool just takes an absurd amount across 4 worlds….
Its stuff like that which grinds peoples gears as, with full knowledge and routing, even with all the moves you often need to repeat trips places to finalize stuff.
You’re describing an objective of standard complexity in video games. It’s no more tedious than a Zelda dungeon or a Metroidvania.
@ way to miss the point mate and to also simplify the issue into backtracking = bad or not
@@jonsmith5058
Do you not understand that backtracking is just fundamental to a Metroidvania structure? Just saying, I didn’t really have a problem with what you’re complaining about. Like there are warp pads and silos everywhere for fast travel. It takes mere minutes to get through the back-and-forth if you know what you’re doing (even without routing or foreknowledge), and you’re always making progress.
@@BareBandSubscriptionagain. You miss my point.
Its about how tedious the backtracking is. When its done well it can be fun and natural.
In Banjo Tooie its a chore. In DK64 its just apalling cause you often need to do it with multiple Kongs.
Yet again, you miss the point. I do not mind backtracking. I am against tedious gameplay.
@
The backtracking isn’t tedious to me. That’s _my_ point. What you’re complaining about is entirely subjective. The game is a Metroidvania. That’s just the way it’s designed. It’s not a flaw; it’s a conscious choice that some of us like. I sincerely love the elaborate, multiple-world-spanning objectives that you’re complaining about. That’s what made Tooie innovative. DK64 is completely different backtracking altogether because it’s not meaningfully progressive. It’s just a tedious process of finding barrels to swap Kongs to pick more stuff up off the ground. There’s rarely anything elaborate, clever, or substantive in DK64’s backtracking. 99 times out of 100, it’s just the same one-note process of merely walking back and forth over the same ground in the same small space an immeasurable number of times just for colored bananas and tokens. It’s just padding. Tooie is way more complex than that. If you think the two are comparable in the conversation of backtracking, you legit don’t know what you’re talking about.
I always loved the interconnectivity of Tooie worlds, makes the setting feel more vibrant and alive. I also think it's funny that backtracking is praised in metroidvanias but not in games like this. Personally I love recontextualization, so I'm a sucker for interesting backtracking
good stuff dude!
My 2nd fav N64 game❤
Funny, the secret shortcut method of getting the Jiggy in Smuggler's Cave is how I always got that one lol
I Don't know if it counts as a glitch, but you can shoot fire eggs to light up the path.
Love the detail 😊13:40
I think my groan with the backtracking was for achievement hunting and how temperamental the FPS controls… I’ve been replaying the game recently, going for 100%, and without stressing on leaderboards … so far it’s fine, does take a bit of doing though
In glitter gulch mine I didn’t even know you needed the springy boots to get the cheeto page, I always just jumped off the rope and used Kazooie to get it
It's strange that backtracking is seen by some as just a bad thing. I understand that when done poorly, it is annoying. But backtracking itself is not inherently bad or good, it's just a design element that can be done poorly or well, and I definitely argue that it's done well in Banjo-Tooie.