Dune is some of the best..you should do Sphere by Michael Chricton vs the Dustin Hoffman Sam Jackson..Sharon Stone Film ..book is way better of course but the movie is good to
The 84 movie showed getting on the sand worm in a much more logical way as written in the book. Paul has a tool that lifts up the worms scale exposing its sensitive part to sand. The worm rotates this opening to its top furthest from sand lifting Paul at the same time, which puts Paul on top of the worm. You turn the worm by opening another scale and adjusting when needed. The worm turns to keep sand furthest away from sand.
Not having Alia is probably having a lot to do with as you mentioned finding a good child actor, but i also think it had a lot to do with how the film is set up with us following the narrative of Paul. He had like 90% of the screen time. Had they introduced a character like that it would have taken away the viewers attention from Paul. Since Dune Messiah has a 12 year time skip, maybe Villeneuve will make it a 20 year one to age her up when he makes the next one, and Anna Taylor Joy looks young enough to pass for 20.
I also think a toddler (actor) poses severe logistics and safety constraints in a desert setting. Things like these are not trivial considerations by any means.. and all of these difficulties could end up being wasted in the cutting room for acting output that's simply too goofy. So, not really much we can do about these practical realities.. it sucks for us book fans but what else can any other director do?
I would have just let Jessica poison the Baron with a Gom Jabbar, but the viewer would see Alia in the act (Ana Taylor Joy) - the people in the movie would see Jessica. Then it would play the same with Paul with an agonizing Duke. But perhaps even if they thought something similar, it was more of an R scene so they went in a different direction.
The last line is meant to underscore how those who read of Muad Dib would correctly see the primary women who influenced him. Leto had no official wife but the woman he loved broke her obedience to the Bene Gessirit to bear him a son. Emperor Muad Dib's wife was Irulan Corrino, but his mind body and soul belonged to Chani, who shared his rise to power and bore his children.
Hey there! Love this video! I think it’s reasonable they were afraid child Alia could be silly since she comes off as very, very silly in the 80s version. Another big factor that’s not as obvious: The two year time jump takes away all sense of narrative urgency. In both the 80s version and the Miniseries, the pacing, tension, and momentum come to a screaming halt when it hits the time jump, and never recovers. Works in the book, but it’s just an awful story structure for cinematic pacing. The movie makes it into a relentless drive from the moment Paul joins the Freman to the climactic battle, which I think is why the movie never feel slow despite the runtime. I suspect this writing decision was made first, and then they tried to figure out how to keep Alia as a presence in the story. Talking fetus is not something I ever would have expected, but I honestly love it. I felt it really captured the creeping unease Alia provokes in the book, just in a very different way.
Such a good point about the time jump ruining the pacing of the previous adaptations! Since making this video, the way they did Alia has grown on my and I actually love how weird and unique that choice was.
I agree with the fear that Alia might come of as silly, but I also think there are ways to make her less silly. Maybe have her speak as a child, but have scenes with an adult voice whenever she goes and does adult things? I mean children are a mainstay in horror films after all.
I interpreted the last line as jessica supporting chani in that moment. She was letting her know that although they aren’t the “official” wives of their loves everyone will remember them/respect them as such. Ending on that line highlights their importance although I enjoyed the movie I am disappointed in the changes made to chani and paul’s relationship and wanted more emphasis placed on the dream of terraforming the planet (& chani’s wish for this as well)
That last line in the book was so impactful for me. And honestly sad. Like Jessica trying to console Chani but knowing it's straight up bullshit and she doesn't believe it. Blows my mind that Villeneuve wanted to change that awesome ending.
Problem with the Chani change is that it completely fucks up some of the best scenes in Messiah. Theyre either going to have to make some serious changes or tie it all back together in a really clever way. If the series ended after the second movie, then film Chani is fine.
I think chani is already pregnant. Maybe she'll just tragically die alone and Paul feels immeasurable guilt for that and that could be a reason he retreats into the dunes
I re-watched your Dune 1 video before seeing the movie, as a refresher and I didn't think you were going to review Dune 2 until later but I'm so glad you did! I'm commenting before listening, because I know I'll be influenced. LOL. I went to see this the 2nd night it was in theaters, paid extra for the XD or whatever special screen, thinking the visuals and music would be mind-blowing. They were not. I went with my two daughters who absolutely LOVE the actors so they thought the movie was amazing, but I was left a lil confused and not sure how I felt. This was not nearly the masterpiece Dune 1 was. It seemed rushed in parts, while other parts didn't seem as important to the storyline, but lots of time was dedicated for the sake of the actors, if that makes sense. Zendaya's character frowned and scowled almost the entire movie, while Austin Butler's character was very unbelievable to me.
Oh interesting! It's true Zendaya did a lot of scowling lol. I thought the acting by all was great though! I have heard a few people say they preferred the first movie.
Thank you! We who think Part 1 is better are rare breed it seems - from the ridiculous hype part 2 Is getting. I love part 1 - i think it was almost perfect scifi movie (and decent adaptation) but part 2 is so inconsistent, dragging then rushing…. I saw 1 maybe 8x I am not sure I wanna see part 2 again for some time now though. So many things are plain “badly” executed to me it hurts. I can’t get why people call first movie boring and this one epic and full of action
@@handznet I thought I was tripping at first after coming home. Me and my kids always discuss movies we see on the ride home and they were RAVING about how good it was, and how cute the actors were. I got online that evening for reviews and looked at the 1 star ratings and there are a LOT of us!! I can't count how many times I've watched Dune 1 and have no desire to watch 2 again, but maybe I will once I can stream it. Maybe I missed something because this was not it!! LOL!!
@phoebeandem8015 this is so refreshing because i am just titred of hearing how great this is while i feel so frustrated lol. Particularly every time Zendaya popped up on the screen. As a book reader I seriously do not know how the director is going to fix this for messiah.
I told you that you would have a lot to talk about! I like the way you set up your video by talking about each change by themselves rather than chronologically, because there are so many changes to focus on and a lot were intertwined. Also, I don't mind that Alia wasn't born in this movie (although that does mean a LOT happens in less than a year) because I feel like they blended in aspects of the Cult of Alia into the character of Jessica.
In the book the atomics used are the family weapons it’s one of the things that make a great house. Idaho is the one who hides them after the attack passing the information to Paul (this is implied as Idaho says he’s hidden them). The Grandfather that his mother and Hawait is Leto’s father a cold man full of bravado.
Oh, hmm I didn't catch that about the house atomics in the book. But they do talk about using the chemicals the worms create as well. And I assumed they were comparing him to the Baron but guess I was wrong about that too lol. Thanks for making the correction!
@@WhytheBookWins I'm really enjoying your videos. You were almost right about the Spice Mass. What Paul was threatening was to use the Water of Life to introduce it into a Pre Spice Mass which would actually cause a chain reaction amongst the Little Makers, the Sand Trout, which help create the Spice Mass in the first place. If they were to destroy that Vector of the Worm-Spice chain, it would destroy production of Spice.
Thank you for such a well-done, comprehensive and detailed video! I read Dune in 2019 and had gone fuzzy on many of the details, especially the 2nd half of the book. So this was a pleasure to view!
I love listening to you describe how you really started to love Frank Herbert's writing. A friend of mine bought me my first copy of Dune when I was in 7th grade, like 25 years ago. I fell in love with his writing style and he remains one of my favorites of all time. Keep reading the series! I don't really like Brian Herbert's writing much, but I highly recommend all of Frank Herbert's Dune novels. Especially the 4th book, God Emperor of Dune. My favorite book in the series. It has so many nuggets of wisdom and philosophy that blew my mind when I was younger, and really changed my perspective. A true masterpiece.
Yeah since this video I have read the first 4 books! I agree, the 4th was so good!! Leto was fascinating for so many reasons, and the Duncan Idaho was so interesting too.
Alia was a baby acting like a full adult... so do you cast a child and then digitally move their mouth and facial expressions to match... or do you hire an adult and digitally turn them into a toddler... I get the challenge... but if you don't stick the landing... you are swimming in the uncanny valley.
Lynch introduced them (the navigators) in his film and I think it gives the non book readers real insight as to who the power players are in this universe. Plus, I just find them to be fascinating creatively speaking. Also, as for Alliah, I think if you look hard enough you could find a child actor small but older in years who could have portrayed Aliya.🤷🏽♀️
As someone who’s never read the book, I really enjoyed part two. I saw it in IMAX and it was an incredible experience. I haven’t stopped thinking about the movie ever since. I’m definitely going to try to watch it again in theaters ⚔️
The '84 movie is the reason I finally read the book, I wanted to understand the many, many questions I had. I absolutely love the current films. There was just so much missing; Thufir, a complete understanding of just how precious water is, Alia, Paul's son, the passage of time... and so on. I did not mind most of the changes and I definitely recommend this films. Whenever I am in a conversation with someone I do try to get a grasp on weather or not they would enjoy the book because if I think they would like the other 75% of the details of this world then I try to get them a copy as soon as possible. Thank you for your channel.
Here because none of my friends nerd-out about Dune like I do. Great breakdown. Both movies offer a great representation of the book, and are captivating if you pay attention (saw a few sleepers in the crowd at both movies but its okay). Personally, I would have liked to see more of Hawat's storyline develop in the movie as it would have aided the showdown scene at the end. I would also have liked to see Gurney' beef with Lady Jessica play out in the film. Was upset about how they handled the Alia time gap, as well as not mentioning Chani & Paul's kid. But I get they had to do something to make it cohesive for general film-goers. Good news is, they could make Dune the next big movie franchise! If they want to dive into all the details, they could write at least 6 more films.
Yeah I would love to see a couple more movies, but I hope they end it while they are still good because I would hate to see them drag it just to milk it for all it's worth.
Books and cinema both have their beauty and pleasures. I personally don’t care what is missing in the movie from the book. That is what the book is for. The creators of this movie only had the responsibility to make the best film they could, with a reasonable run time. Mission accomplished…
@@WhytheBookWinsThe art of film adaptation in large measure is a faithful transfer of the overall sense and ideas of the source material-not every detail. Director Denis Villeneuve accomplishes this with the art of cinema-using visuals, show not tell, and smatterings of very brief (often disguised) exposition. It is not surprising that two of Villeneuve’s Top Five favorite films are 2001: A Space Odyssey and Apocalypse Now-two paragons of the art of film so often spoken about in the same breath. Both held up as among the very best at painting the cinematic canvas with grandeur and mystery…
To be honest I like the way Alia is handled, probably even more than the book. Her being a fetus really hammers home the idea that she’s preborn, and it’s just much more creepy than a little girl would be. Imo it came off goofy in the 84 movie and that’s not how Alia is supposed to come off. People are TERRIFIED of her.
14:24 In the book, Thufir helps Feyd discredit the slave master so they can replace him with another who will let him sneak the poison needle with the slave boy in the failed assassination attempt on the Barron
I definitely feel like they were trying to cut out as much of the Baron's... Activities... As they could while still keeping enough of the feyd story to make sense. It's already a miracle this movie ended up being PG-13, and i don't think including the weaponized underage sex slaves was integral to the dune experience.
@@restitvtororbis5330 😅😅 for sure!! That's definitely it. Apparently Thufir and Count fenring got cut for time so perhaps they may have added the non drugged combatant being the Barron's idea as a way to make it work without Thufir.
Thank you for clarifying! That makes sense now why they wanted the slave master dead. And yeah, that detail about the Baron in the book was very disturbing
As far as a Thumpers go, because they're not organic perhaps the worms either regurgitate them or they come out the other end and they find them in the desert sometime to get recycled. A thumper is made of mechanical parts and it'd be like swallowing a nickel where it would just come out the other end if it doesn't get stuck.
If you don't want to watch the 1962 movie "Lawrence of Arabia" (3 yrs before Herbert's "Dune"), I suggest you read the 1926 published T.E. Lawrence novel "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom". You will find passages that will show Lawrence's influence on Herbert and his Dune novel and thus the adaptations. I.E. these stories are timeless.
I've read the book a few times since I was a kid. I'm a huge fan. Having said that, I love the changes Denis Villanueve made, particularly in Part 2. In the book, I always felt that Jessica was the heart and soul of the story. As a reader, we love Paul because we so often see him through Jessica's eyes. We see the sacrifices she makes for him and Leto. And I think that's why Jessica has the last line in the book. She's comforting herself as much as she's comforting Chani, 'maybe I was just a concubine but I will always be remembered as the Duke's partner and the mother of his son.' Book Jessica is my favorite character. But I love Villanueve's changes. In the movie, Chani is, as you said, the moral compass of the story. Move Chani is the character I related to the most: YES, religion is a toll of opression, YES, it sucks. that Paul is losing his humanity. YES, the successful overthrow of Emperor Shaddam IV is a huge tragedy. I think they are both beautiful works of art and, in many ways, Villanueve does a better job of conveying Herbert's anti-messianic message than Herbert did in the books. Thank you for this lovely video comparison!
Very well put! Such a great point on how that last line is a reflection of Jessica and how she views things. Thanks for sharing you thoughts and I'm glad you liked my comparison 😊
I enjoy the movie, even with the changes , I think part one and two are one of best dune movies we gotten, little more mix on Chani and Paul relationship and how those changes will affect the next movie if they make Dune Messiah , especially with the brith of twins a big part in Dune Messiah novel
Yeah I'm very curious what will happen with Chani! If they keep her angry and going against Paul that would cause the next movie to be very different than Dune Messiah
I liked them, I thought they made sense, especially for Alia and Jessica, for the time perspective in the movie, I felt like it was smart move instead of time jumping over and over in the movie. For Chani liked it, it makes her more interesting and complex and cant wait to see her next interactions with Paul and Irulan and being pregnant
I loved both in the first one, this one, not so much, especially Jessica. The weird voice, it was a little confusing to me if the "she" she kept referring to was the baby or the previous reverend mother, but the movie didn't take time to explain what was happening and why. The bene gesserits are fascinating to me, their powers and ways. This movie took alot of their magic away, to me. As I said above, i noticed Chani frowning almost the entire movie, weird close-ups of Zendaya, the way she kinda snarled at Jessica every time she spoke with her, and her riding off on a worm by herself, even though she was a fighter, and a great war was beginning. I felt like she was pregnant at the end and part 3 would show her baby with Paul.
I didn't like either. For Jessica, I think they wanted Paul to be more reluctant about using his Messiah status because it would make him more likable, so they chose to have Jessica basically force him into it. I think this decision made Paul's arc make less sense (combined with the absence of Alia and his Leto II) and it lost the complexity of Jessica's character. For Chani, they wanted to give her more to do (which is fine) and I think they were also uncomfortable with how the Islamic influences might come off, so wanted to create a friction in the Fremen over the prophecy, which ironically I think made the Fremen seem dumber compared to the book. Also, what makes Chani a cool character is that she's very methodical and practical (Stilgar is her uncle, she knows the Bene Gesserit ways, and she's practiced in politics), and actually encourages Paul's marriage to Irulan (even though she's not thrilled by it). The last part of the book where Jessica thinks about Chani is going to have the same fate as her (doomed to always be in danger and having to protect her family without having true political power) is very tragic and almost Shakespearean. What I was the most disappointed about though was that they cut Tim Blake Nelson as Count Fenring, who I'm sure would have been perfect.
I actually liked how they changed Jessica. The first time I watched it I HATED how they changed Chani. Upon second watch, I understood the change and I’m ok with it. I’m very interested in how the plot will go forward in Dune Part 3.
One comment. There is this rumor that Herbert’s wrote Messiah because he was disappointed of being misunderstood. This is a FALSE rumor. Herbert had the first three books already laid out in his mind before he signed his publishing agreement. DV said that and I don’t know where he got that from. Listen to FH discourse at UCLA 1985 where he talks about this.
I’m not sold on having Chani carry the entire moral mantle in the movie. I think it makes more sense for Jessica and Gurney, who have known Paul all his life, to take on this role. In Dune 1, as in the first part of the book, Paul resents Jessica for essentially breeding and training him for this future. So in the second part of the book, it makes sense for her to contend with the choices she made, including some guilt. Gurney was Paul’s mentor. He helped shape Paul in the Atreides ways. So it’s more emotionally impactful for him to see Paul slowly veer away from those values. In the movie, especially, Chani JUST met Paul. The movie spends more time having Chani judging Paul than actually deepening their relationship. All the judging doesn’t feel earned. Chani is supposed to be Paul’s main connection to humanity, to love, and I just didn’t feel that between them. A little meet-cute in the dessert and a montage just isn’t enough.
Nope, the emperor did not have Sietch Tabr destroyed in the book. Sietch Tabr was actually abandoned pretty early in the book due to the continued attacks between Harkonnen and Fremen. Jessica was made Reverent Mother because the current one was too old and would not be able to survive the evacuation, and they “needed” a new one to kind of take along her memories. Becoming a Reverent Mother awakens the ancestral memories, not just those of other RMs. As Paul joins the Fremen and their resistance fights gradually broaden into a war, he is accepted as a war-leader due to his training as such by his father (and staff). His tactical knowledge allows the Fremen to push back the Harkonnen into a defensive stance, which Gurney Halleck acknowledges at their rejoining, recognizing the Fremen are now free to move as they want while the Harkonnen are holed up. That said, the Fremen have their losses too, especially since the Sardaukar never left Arrakis. Their losses during the Harkonnen retaking of Arrakis due to Fremen made them want to ensure none were left, because their reputation was supposed to be one of “unbeatability.” When the emperor comes to Arrakis for the final showdown, he doesn’t believe the reports of the south being uninhabitable and has pictures taken from orbit. These reveal patches of green and habitation, so he joins a detachment of Sardaukar to investigate and is shocked that they barely escape alive. The south at that time has mostly the old people, women, and children, with all the men at war in the north. His foray results in the death of Pauls son and the captivity of Alia. That is how Alia ends up in the (temporary) throne room.
Love the videos! It seemed in the movie that Paul was already established as the Maud’dib-Messiah because the fedaykin already had flags with the Atreides bird on it. Like they were already ready to go to war for Maud’dib The first film was almost a copy of the first 400 pages of the book but this newest one does a lot of restructuring of the plot, cutting out a lot of extra plot. I am curious what aspects of the last act of the book will be included into Dune Messiah when it comes out. Like Paul telling the Bene Gesserit that they can’t control him and him knowing he has a son with Chani, and his descent into darkness
I like the choice for the movie to not have the time skip. I think it would’ve messed up the pacing. I don’t think they cut Alia because it might be silly, and I’m 100% sure we’ll see her in the next one.
Yeah you make a good point an not the time jump potentially messing with the pace of the film! With Alia though, in the next movie it seems she will be played by an adult, I speculated that they thought showing Alia as a very young child is what would come across as silly or weird.
@@WhytheBookWins I’m not sure she will be played by an adult, as that would mean there’s a big time skip in between movies. I don’t think they’ll do that large of a time skip in between movies since they would have to age everyone up, and I think Anya Taylor Joy is just in visions as adult Alia and is not completely indicative of how’ll she’ll appear in the next film. Could be wrong though.
I think you will enjoy the SF miniseries. My favorite portrayals of Chani, the Baron, Jessica and Irulan are in this series. Chani especially. She's perfect. Messiah/Children is especially good. Dune suffers from some questionable costume design choices (a lot of very silly hats, but then again some that are very Jean Giraud Moebius!) and a low budget, but made up for by story fidelity. Both have great soundtracks too.
One thing I noticed when I watched some clips from the 1984 movie is that there were fremen children here and there while in the new movies I didn't see children at all. Maybe Villeneuve just didn't want any children at all in the production, including Alia.
I think it was a cowardly creative choice to leave out Alia. A lot of today's films try to be too "grounded," and that can backfire when it comes to fantasy or science fiction films. One of my favorite things about the Dune series is the science fiction-metaphysical weirdness. I mean, c'mon, you have people riding giant worms and the first movie opens with the bizzare guttural Sardukar quote! So I believe it was omitted because it was "too weird." How the Baron now dies was very generic and predictable (How about womb Alia takes control of Jessica and she kills the Baron)? I loved Aliya's portrayal in both 1984 and the SF Channel miniseries (here she was especially great, with more screentime). She's my favorite character!
Concerning Alia, I'm pretty sure the issue was primarily due to Villeneuve wanting to accelerate the pace of the events taking place, to avoid having to do a time jump. I'm sure casting a child able to convey wisdom beyond their age convincingly was another reason though, and trying to do it digitally would have just failed, I'm most certain. It's a total bummer to not have her in the movie and killing the Baron or interact with Mohiam, but I think I understand why it was done this way, so I accept it. This causes a slight issue for Dune Part 3 though, as Alia was originally born Fremen, in a sietch, and therefore stayed on Arrakis with her brother to rule the Imperium. In the books, Jessica returns to Caladan. Does that mean she going to be born there then? And if so, why would she later leave there to go to Arrakis, a world she has never learned to love nor see as her homeworld? /shrug And about the slavemaster, it was really confusing reading and understanding that bit. I ---think--- Feyd and Thuffir wanted the current slavemaster killed so he could be replaced by another under their control that would later try to assassinate the Baron, hidding a poison needle in his thigh, during one of his sexual indiscretions at a later time. Did I get that right? The changes to Chani pretty much make her the hero of Part 2. She loved the Paul who wanted nothing to do with the Lisan al-Gaib prophecy, who didn't want power, who was her equal. She was a non-believer and she saw these myths *exactly* for what they were: a mean of control - and Paul knew just as much. And so, when Paul finally fully embrassed his messiah status and exerted full control over the Freman, she could no longer recognise him as the man she loved. She still fought for her people to the end, to free Arrakis from the Harkonnens, but she could no longer follow Paul - she is uncompromising in this way, and I LOVED that. It at least gives ONE character that isn't insane in this mad world. In the book, her character is so horribly compliant and she doesn't have much of an active role, except to revive Paul I guess. Her character is even worst in Dune Messiah where she continues to be compliant and essentially becomes a human incubator and dies in childbirth, because of course, that stupid trope... I like movie Chani so much more. Also loved the additions of Irulan in some scenes of her own, already working on her many books, as well as the continuing scheming of the Bene Gesserit. I liked that a lot. Overall, I really loved the movie for the most part, sad to not have Alia in the flesh, but we do have her presence in some fashion still. And I think making Paul more clearly a semi-villain by the end of the movie is best especially when you know how Herbert's original message was so misunderstood.
Yeah you're probably right that it comes down to them streamlining the plot! And I think that must be it about why they wanted the the slave master killed! That makes sense. When Feyd tries to kill the Baron using the slave boy i think the Baron even brings up the slave master from that fight. And yet I hadn't made the connection 😅 Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Glad to hear you liked the movie as well 😀
I think the final line is actually a positive one. That both the reality and the historical view will be just. while only the superfiscial open lie isnt all that consequental.
In reading the book once again, I don't agree that the references to Paul's grandfather were references to Barron Harrkonen, because elsewhere throughout the book, there were observations that Paul was like the Old Duke, referring I assumed to Leto Atreides father; and also, very few knew that genetic truth.
I think you are right! My mistake. Jessica and Thurfir make this observation and Jessica knows the truth, and I guess I assumed Thufir must have found out as well but again, I think I was mistaken on that and they were thinking of Leto's dad.
I am a big fan of Alia in the Dune and Dune Messiah books, Dune 1984, and Dune 2 the new film. I don’t like what happens to her in the novel Children of Dune and 2003 mini-series…
Thanks for the kind reply! The biggest part of what I don’t like about what happens to Alia is her getting possessed by the Baron. I was happy that this coward bully gets ended swiftly and unceremoniously especially in the film Dune 2-undeserving of any dignity or glory. I did not want his presence to return. Rabban likewise got terminated quickly by Gurney in Dune 2-Rabban not deserving to go out like a “boss”…
I understood a lot of the changes (I didn't like them but understood them), but I was genuinely perplexed by the lack of ecology in it. The movie makes the collected water seem like woo-woo superstition, when the reality is that they're collecting it for the hope of terraforming Arrakis into a planet their descendants can flourish in. The reason Kynes is won over to Paul is that Paul promises to terraform Arrakis and not be overcome by greed for the spice. It's an incredibly ahead of its time plotpoint and it gives agency to the Fremen in their alliances with Paul. Cutting it out made the Fremen just seem dumb and superstitious with no goals or leadership.
Yeah that's so true! Kynes in general is downplayed a lot in the movie because in the book he inspired thr Fremen to make real plans for this new world.
I think that the reason Feyd is more sadistic is because they took that quality away from the harkonnen mentat Piter, so they basically just made Feyd-Rautha have Piter's book personality to an extent.
It's not just that Dune part 2 isn't true to the source material there's also a lot of dumb scenes and wasted screentime. Like every time a Harkonnen was on screen they had to kill an underling because the audience needs to be constantly reminded these are the bad guys or Chani screaming "this is how they control us" during the Fremen gathering as if the audience is too stupid to pick up on that subtext. From what I understand Dune part 1 got criticism for being too esoteric so the director chose to spoon feed the plot and make all the characters one-dimensional to make the film have broader appeal. Basically the unread masses laped it up and everyone else was left scratching their heads and wondering where the hell they're going with Dune 3.
Minute 27:30 Paul picks one Freman to tell him his Grand Mother lost an eye because a rock fell on her. That women's name was DUNE ! Was this in the book ?
He was saying the planet was called Dune, not the mother. But this exact scene is not in the book though the planet is referred to as Dune as well as Arrakis.
Pretty sure they wanted to kill the slavemaster cause the assassination attempt was meant to be by a slave with a poison needle planted on his thigh when the baron requested one. So they had to plant the slavemaster there so they could then plant the slave itself.
I think the prophecy is both real and self fulfilling; the bene gesserit have been coming up with this prophecy for millennia, and I think Jessica also made it happen but that's also part of the prophecy in a way??? For me it shows how faith works: if you believe it, it is real. And if you don't, it's not.
People are missing that there are essentially two prophecies at play - the kwisatz haderach "prophecy" and the Lisan al Gaib prophecy. The KH "prophecy" isn't really a prophecy - it was a carefully executed plan that Jessica upset at the end by making Paul a boy instead of a girl, making the KH happen earlier than expected. The Lisan al gaib stuff was completely fictitious and used to manipulate the Fremen, which is why centuries / millennia past the Bene Gesserit planted it among them - in case they would one day need to manipulate the Fremen like that. So Paul is the KH, but not the Lisan al Gaib because there is no Lisan al Gaib - it was a fiction. Paul and Jessica both know this, its a sham. The only reason it "comes true" is because Paul makes it come true so that they believe in him, so he can use them.
I'd like to survey people just after they've watched the film and, after separating those who have read the first book (and probably having to separate based on whether or not they've read the second and third books), then asking a few basic questions. 1) Why is the planet Arrakis important? 2) Why is the spice important? 3) What are the basics of the "Prophecy" - where did it come from, what are the content of the beliefs held by some of the Fremen? 4) What is Paul actually offering (or "fulfilling", if you prefer) in his role as Mahdi? 5) What is the "paradise" that's being referred to at the conclusion? (I realise I'm kind of re-stating (4) here but I'm thinking of someone who answers in a certain way) And so on. I suspect most folks picked up that the Prophecy was a Bene Gesserit plant, a fail-safe, a backup plan that kind of went a bit rogue. The rest? Unless one has read the books....
During the big Fremen meeting at which Paul becomes their leader, Guerney does actually say that Harkonnen have killed his family. But then, when he gets his revenge, he says that this is for his duke and his friends. I assume they had his story in at some point, but it's one of many cuts. I would've loved to see little Alia; she's iconic. But I get the practical limitations. And I'd be fine with it, if it weren't for the decision to already cast an adult Alia, which poses problems for Part Three. Jessica and Chani also make sense in isolation, but not with Villeneuve wanting to adapt Dune Messiah as well. If we don't get the twins, I'll flip a table. As would WB and Legendary due to him cutting their hit film franchise short. And I find it ironic that Villeneuve made Chani a viewpoint to drive home the message (which still went over the heads of the usual suspects), while making film Paul decidedly less dark than book Paul.
True, I know there were a number of scenes cut from the final product! And yeah, I'm very curious to see what happens with Chani and the twins and how they are able to make that work.
The book could be clunky at times and then just blindside you with the most beautifully written quote you've ever heard. I wish some more of Herbert's words made it into the mouths of the characters on screen.
I have a question for you guys about Part 3. Do you want Denis to show the Jihad and adapt the third act of Messiah in order to include more action, or do you want him to stay as close to the plot of the book as possible? Im not talking any major changes from the book; the core narrative of the conspirators working against Paul would remain basically the same. maybe the idea of the fremen rebellion could be expanded upon for a third act battle, and the movie could open with a major battle from the Jihad to set up the events of the story. I think that even with showing parts of the Jihad and adding more action there would still be plenty of time for slow character moments. What do you guys think?
@@WhytheBookWins yup, took me out of the entire Dune concept...then again, the book God Emporer of Dune take me out of the Dune universe....that is CLEARLY Herbert's ATTEMPT at writing comedy....i think he failed.....though, to be honest, by the time they bring in Malky, in person, i thing Herbert found his ability to do comedy......but the entire book UPTO that point was so hard to read
The Paul/Chani thing at the end of the book mirrors Leto/Jessica. Paul is making the same mistake his father made for basically the same reasons. At the time, I suppose it could have been quite the feminist message - you don't need marriage or domestication to be in love with and soulmates with somebody.
There is a theme that I am not particularly thrilled it is missing in the movie, but maybe it is only my impression from the book. It is that Chani is introduced kinda like a scary character in the book. She is almost ordered to assist Paul and Jessica, I don't remember her doing it on her own wim. The fact that she is interpreted by Zendaya is a problem to me, even though a pleasure to the eye, I won't lie. Also the fact that nobody needs to strip here is pretty refreshing: I mean, the only one was Leto. But Zendaya kinda looks too nice for her own good, I think. She also comes out too American, with that accent, that you find it hard to believe she is actually fremen. The relationship with doctor Kynes being her father (mother) is missing, too; that would probably serve as a justification why she might be different from the other fremen women, but hey. The point is that Zendaya as an acress always gives out the same vibe, if you know what I mean: here's Zedaya being Spiderman's girlfriend, there's Zendaya being a Fremen, here's Zendaya dating two guys, Zendaya is angry, Zendaya is happy, etc. She performs some good scenes but they are characteristically the ones when she is not required to be tough, when she is vulnerable and hurt. And I very much like the theme and the ending of the movie, and the reasons for the changes because I am so tired hearing people completely misinterpreting the book on the mere fact that Herber maybe was political more on the right. You know, many people accuse these books of being colonialist, racist, misogynist, and by extension so are accused the people who love them. Despite the the fact that the Fremen's is indeed a patriarchal society, and what would you expect in those condition, I don't know. Despite the fact that this is balanced by the power of the reverend mothers as a spiritual guide and the fact that Fremen women are trained to defend themselves, I have always found the entire setup fascinating and provoking. So, the funny thing here is that we have a character that is completely subverted from being the perfect Fremen woman (expected to have strong children in order to fight and all that stuff) to being a rebellious and defiant girlfriend: she even stands at the end with Irulan, despite everybody bowing to the new emperor. And I don't see too much complaining. I wonder if it's because the movie is good, whereas in other cases it is not... As if the changes actually made sense and didn't destroy characters, open silly plot holes and such. I wonder. By the way, another change I liked is Stilgar: she comes out as a comic relief at times but that's great: it's tragical and comedic at the same time, and I think it actually deepens the tragedy of the man who decides to follow an off-worlder and sentence many of his people to death.
Have you ever read A Song of Ice and Fire ? I think you might like it, despite being fantasy it has a lot of similarities with Dune and it's a perfect example on why the book wins 😂😂
I haven't read that and to be honest, as much as I have enjoyed reading the Dune books, I don't think I'll have it in my to read any more fantasy for a while lol. In general, it's just not my preferred genre.
Honestly not having Alia was so annoying to me lol the timeline is just weird. Jessica was already pregnant in the middle of pt1 + Paul has a vision of Jessica holding Alia so….. It implies that Alia would’ve been present in pt2( at least I thought) but no she’s a whole embryo STILL… I truly believe they took the easy way out with her character they could’ve simply casted a young actress to play the role of Alia maybe not a two-year-old per-se but simply a child actress from the age of 8 through 12 would’ve done a decent job. Idc. She’s such a great character that adds so much to the story & excluding her out really irked me….
Yeah the talking fetus was cool and unique (though we didn't even get as much of that as I would have liked tbh), but not seeing her as a real character was disappointing.
As adaptations, Dune I and II were marvelous. As far as differences from the book 1, name any film adaptations of a novel that perfectly copied all the details and themes of a book.
I agree, the new movies are amazing! And I definitely don't think an adaptation should keep everything from the book. When movies do that it tends not to turn out well.
I dislike that the movie outright makes Paul into a villain. There is no one left to root for in the movie. Putting author's message about messiahs front an centre was a mistake. Seems that we can't have subtlety even in more serious movies nowadays, just gotta tell the viewer what to think!
I couldn't make heads or tails of what the film was trying to do with Paul's character. There's the blatant expository dialogue with him explaining his visions of unforetold deaths if he is to become the Lisan al Gaib, yet it's also implied (at least before he drinks the Water of Life) that his visions are unclear and not necessarily so reliable. And we get Chani's distrust of him as a leader, believing it will lead to the enslavement of the Fremen, similar to how he distrusts himself. Yet there's not much reliably shown (as opposed to possibly unreliably explained) in the films to back up these doubts towards Paul unless we just take these characters' words for it. So in many ways, the film does seem to be beating us over the head more with a hammer foreshadowing that Paul is likely to become a corrupt theocratic dictator and war criminal, but at the same time it seems to make us us further doubt whether that blatant hammer is real. I just felt like I was getting mixed messages throughout the film and couldn't resonate with the core character motivations and conflicts. Also I think the film makes it out like the Water of Life is what's going to turn Paul into a tyrant, not that he had such tyrannical potential already there all along. That really undermines the anti-Messiah theme if this is how things are going to play out.
There are people like me who just cannot read fiction (ask me to read a 700-page brick on European sociology, no problem, but novels and short novels simply bore me out, I just can't get interested), so silly as it may sound, the book can never win for me, since I'll never be able to read it in the first place !
The core problem with Herbert's intended message is that Paul actually *is* superhuman. Thus, it is right and correct for him to be worshipped as such. Perhaps you could say it's taken too far and that he should not be elevated to "God-level" but if someone today did what Paul does in the Dune story, he would rightly be looked upon as supernatural. And then, of course, his son takes it to an entirely new level himself. So if Herbert's point was that we shouldn't elevate NORMAL human beings to godhood, it's an odd way to do it when your main character is NOT a normal human being.
To be honest, I was pretty grumpy about Peter Jackson's LotR for making several plot changes, most notably replacing Glorfindel with Arwen, but still enjoyed it. Dune part 2 I walked away with a feeling that I would probably buy the DVDs, but get angry every time I watch it. The point is not that you must be careful using religion, but that normal people can easily get swept along and become believers. In the book Stilgar is religious, sure, but he starts out as being a good naib, putting the good of the tribe before his own feelings. Paul was shocked and at a loss when he saw Stilgar become a Muad'Dib believer. What Herbert was trying to convey is not "stay away from fundamentalists," as the movie does, but "be careful with religion, because, just as love, it is a force that can overpower anyone." And I'll never forgive Villeneuve for breaking up the love between Paul and Chani. She fell in love, stayed in love, and their bond was strong and a major force to be reckoned with.
Regarding the fulfilled prophecies...Paul is trained by a mentat, by the best BG, exposed to spice and, most importantly, genetically ALMOST KW. He was having all the prerequisites to be convincing as KW, but he wasn't. The movies crushed my soul. Majestic spectacle with so meny talented people, but not my Dune. I'm happy for the book readers who like it, I wish I was you. Oh, please do mini series! So many technical misses, and I don't even think that Paul's casting was as good as Timotees'. Still, I m gonna re-watch it now to wash out the taste of these epic spectacle-over-substance movies. Subjective preferences. Im also looking forward to Denise's movies that are NOT Dune.
@WhytheBookWins A bit of warning re mini series: the production was really really inferior to this Goliath of sensory syimuli. The special efects...ugh. But the complexity of the characters, themes, and plotlines was wonderful (to me). The actors are good too: Kevin Heart, Saskia Reeves, Susan Sarandon, James McAvoy... Looking forward to your take (whatever it might be)!
I disagree a bit with what Herbert (and by extension Villeneuve) claim the book/story is about. I think it is more about meaning. Herbert seems a bit "60s" in his emphasis on the dangers of "power" (itself a vague abstraction of questionable philosophical clarity). The story is fantastic though. People create meaning in their lives, even if it reproduces patterns that have been laid down before them. The true error is to think meaning is false simply because it adheres to a preconceived pattern.
Low key hate what they did with chani, in this part, I think they did it to make it more obvious to the audience that Paul is the bad guy. But I think if they kept her personality from the books people would still know Paul is bad
I truly believe some book readers are as annoying as those who moaned about LOTR changes to the book. Party poopers who never liked the work for the good reason
@@WhytheBookWins my guess Chani is already pregnant and will have the children in the desert. The movie might end with Chani and Paul walking into the desert. But I am wondering about Lady Jessica. Her character is missing from Messiah.
I just thought you mentioned The Fremen having a high tolerance to The Spice as it's in the air so they naturally have an intake ,so what happens when they go on jihad otherworld warfare.?Do they not have severe withdrawals. 21:09 Ok so the answer is they must take alot with them .but imagine they run out?
Dune the books : blah blah the universe is run by maggot poop blah Dune the movies : legs-akimbo anime poses to very loud Hans Z Arabish riffs Dune the videogame : OUR BASE IS UNDER ATTACK Dune the reality : I'm not drinking my own pee. Look, I'll drink your pee and you can drink my pee. What do you mean, "we haven't even left the hotel room yet", what's that got to do with anything?
I have a hard time reading books, brain wont quiet enough to do so, last book i read fuly took me like a year to do so. I love Dune 1 and 2 so much I started reading the books, i have like 100 pages of Children of Dune left. I tried audiobook as thats how i usually do books, but Dune is so dry in audiobook (pun kindof intended) My only complaints about the movies are: 1) I paid for the whole seat but I only used the edge. 2) Christopher Walken was a bad cast for the Emperor. Christopher Walken is never a character, hes always Christopher Walken as a character.
I'm not used to reading fantasy type books with so much world building, so I had to physically read them! I tried the audiobook and had a hard time following lol. But in general, I love audiobooks! Your first complaint 😆 I agree though, the movie had me captivated the entire time!
@@WhytheBookWins The whole, "I LEAD THE WAY" Scene had me catching flies my jaw was on the floor. Having never read the books at the time I was watching with my teenage kid, half way through we were discussing that Paul was a hero... then it happens and we both went :O "Nevermind" lol
Your opinion questions. I have never seen anything that Herbert never wrote DUNE to have meaning or symbolism about anything with this story except leaders. What is your opinion? Later people started applying the book to meanings that I don't believe was Herbert intentions ever. For example how foreign governments need for oil and their need for oil, was the most important thing. Later applying that logic to other things for example, they even started teaching a college class in the 70's at UCLA (I believe) using Dune as a class book. I don't think Herbert ever meant the books to be a symbol for anyone except be careful with leaders, even ones that you like or even voted for. Because leaders CHANGE!!! I agree/ like your closing comments, was the prophecy ever really, did the Bene Gesserit ever believe that themselves or was it made up such a long time ago, maybe they have even forgotten about it the true meaning since their beginning. Maybe they idea if creating a false super leader that was in reality never going to arrive was easier to sell the idea of a man will be king (emperor) one day. Because why would a order of women have a prophecy that 1 day a man would return to be their leader, but until then you need a woman from our order at every family (kingdom) as an advisor. So they made themselves to be more important than they truly are. This is why I always tell people Dune is not a syfy book but a political book. But I disagree, art is awesome, because I think Bune 1 movie did a good job building the world and getting the idea out to people who are not familiar with book, but Dune 2 after 3 hours left out so much and I don't like their changes, I didn't think the changes did a good enough job to getting the right messages across to the audience.
Maybe I miss understood your explanation (but I watched that in your video 3 times) or if you choose to not to talk more about this scene with Chani and "desert tears" but I found this entire scene nothing but wokenes. Are you paying Zendaya so much money, we need to give her more important rolls/ lines. So no man can do anything without a woman. Plus her entire character is opposite to book, full of doubt will Paul in the movie but the Book 100% supporting Paul. Also with his sister killing the Barron, has great meaning/purpose in book 2 but definitely in book 3.
Desert tears meaning when she woke him up from the water of life? Yeah I say how that was her fulfilling a prophecy in the movie but in the book, Chani wanted Paul up but it isn't with her tear and it isn't prophecy.
I believe they wouldn’t want to risk looking as dumb and weird(not cute weird, more like, get the fudge out of my sight you give me the creeps type of weird 🫣) like the Renesme situation in twilight hahahah we don’t need that kind of monstrosity out in the open again 👽👁️👄👁️
I loved the switch n changing of alia n having her stay in the womb. It just make more sense when your trying to bring actual literature to the big screen n making decsion after decsion keeping plots n cutting plots from . We all know how importaint alia is to the whole story however I 100 percent enjoyed paul ascension throughout the film and I think bringing alia into the fold in the movie would complicate the plot more. Plus it just makes me want to watch part 3 even more wanting to see how the director handles the changeing the story. I like it
In the book they actually do use the house atomics to blow up the shield wall, my bad.
Dune is some of the best..you should do Sphere by Michael Chricton vs the Dustin Hoffman Sam Jackson..Sharon Stone Film ..book is way better of course but the movie is good to
Dune 1 made me want to see more Dune movies. Dune 2 made me want to read the books.
Nice! I think you'll love the book
Dune 1 made me to read the books. Dune 2 made me disappointed
I'm a movie person personally,
Does this mean Dune 3 will make you want to watch Dune TV series and/or Dune 1984?
If you haven't seen the miniseries, it's still the best adaptation. Do it "after" you read the first 3 books.
The 84 movie showed getting on the sand worm in a much more logical way as written in the book. Paul has a tool that lifts up the worms scale exposing its sensitive part to sand. The worm rotates this opening to its top furthest from sand lifting Paul at the same time, which puts Paul on top of the worm. You turn the worm by opening another scale and adjusting when needed. The worm turns to keep sand furthest away from sand.
Not having Alia is probably having a lot to do with as you mentioned finding a good child actor, but i also think it had a lot to do with how the film is set up with us following the narrative of Paul. He had like 90% of the screen time. Had they introduced a character like that it would have taken away the viewers attention from Paul.
Since Dune Messiah has a 12 year time skip, maybe Villeneuve will make it a 20 year one to age her up when he makes the next one, and Anna Taylor Joy looks young enough to pass for 20.
Yeah I'm sure that's what they will do in the next one.
And that's a good point that he wanted the focus to be more on Paul.
I also think a toddler (actor) poses severe logistics and safety constraints in a desert setting. Things like these are not trivial considerations by any means.. and all of these difficulties could end up being wasted in the cutting room for acting output that's simply too goofy. So, not really much we can do about these practical realities.. it sucks for us book fans but what else can any other director do?
Communicating with a fully conscious fetus is simply amazing and adds another element of joyful weirdness to this marvelous film…
I think aging up Anya to look like a toddler can be a way
I would have just let Jessica poison the Baron with a Gom Jabbar, but the viewer would see Alia in the act (Ana Taylor Joy) - the people in the movie would see Jessica. Then it would play the same with Paul with an agonizing Duke.
But perhaps even if they thought something similar, it was more of an R scene so they went in a different direction.
The last line is meant to underscore how those who read of Muad Dib would correctly see the primary women who influenced him. Leto had no official wife but the woman he loved broke her obedience to the Bene Gessirit to bear him a son. Emperor Muad Dib's wife was Irulan Corrino, but his mind body and soul belonged to Chani, who shared his rise to power and bore his children.
Hey there! Love this video! I think it’s reasonable they were afraid child Alia could be silly since she comes off as very, very silly in the 80s version. Another big factor that’s not as obvious: The two year time jump takes away all sense of narrative urgency. In both the 80s version and the Miniseries, the pacing, tension, and momentum come to a screaming halt when it hits the time jump, and never recovers. Works in the book, but it’s just an awful story structure for cinematic pacing. The movie makes it into a relentless drive from the moment Paul joins the Freman to the climactic battle, which I think is why the movie never feel slow despite the runtime. I suspect this writing decision was made first, and then they tried to figure out how to keep Alia as a presence in the story. Talking fetus is not something I ever would have expected, but I honestly love it. I felt it really captured the creeping unease Alia provokes in the book, just in a very different way.
Such a good point about the time jump ruining the pacing of the previous adaptations! Since making this video, the way they did Alia has grown on my and I actually love how weird and unique that choice was.
I agree with the fear that Alia might come of as silly, but I also think there are ways to make her less silly. Maybe have her speak as a child, but have scenes with an adult voice whenever she goes and does adult things? I mean children are a mainstay in horror films after all.
I interpreted the last line as jessica supporting chani in that moment. She was letting her know that although they aren’t the “official” wives of their loves everyone will remember them/respect them as such. Ending on that line highlights their importance
although I enjoyed the movie I am disappointed in the changes made to chani and paul’s relationship and wanted more emphasis placed on the dream of terraforming the planet (& chani’s wish for this as well)
Ahh, that makes sense. Thanks for sharing!
That change was a punch in the gut.
That last line in the book was so impactful for me. And honestly sad. Like Jessica trying to console Chani but knowing it's straight up bullshit and she doesn't believe it. Blows my mind that Villeneuve wanted to change that awesome ending.
Problem with the Chani change is that it completely fucks up some of the best scenes in Messiah. Theyre either going to have to make some serious changes or tie it all back together in a really clever way. If the series ended after the second movie, then film Chani is fine.
I think chani is already pregnant. Maybe she'll just tragically die alone and Paul feels immeasurable guilt for that and that could be a reason he retreats into the dunes
Don't forget that the SyFy miniseries has sequel episodes called Children Of Dune that adapt the books Messiah and Children of Dune.
I re-watched your Dune 1 video before seeing the movie, as a refresher and I didn't think you were going to review Dune 2 until later but I'm so glad you did! I'm commenting before listening, because I know I'll be influenced. LOL. I went to see this the 2nd night it was in theaters, paid extra for the XD or whatever special screen, thinking the visuals and music would be mind-blowing. They were not. I went with my two daughters who absolutely LOVE the actors so they thought the movie was amazing, but I was left a lil confused and not sure how I felt. This was not nearly the masterpiece Dune 1 was. It seemed rushed in parts, while other parts didn't seem as important to the storyline, but lots of time was dedicated for the sake of the actors, if that makes sense. Zendaya's character frowned and scowled almost the entire movie, while Austin Butler's character was very unbelievable to me.
Oh interesting! It's true Zendaya did a lot of scowling lol. I thought the acting by all was great though!
I have heard a few people say they preferred the first movie.
Thank you! We who think Part 1 is better are rare breed it seems - from the ridiculous hype part 2
Is getting. I love part 1 -
i think it was almost perfect scifi movie (and decent adaptation) but part 2 is so inconsistent, dragging then rushing…. I saw 1 maybe 8x I am not sure I wanna see part 2 again for some time now though. So many things are plain “badly” executed to me it hurts. I can’t get why people call first movie boring and this one epic and full of action
@@handznet I thought I was tripping at first after coming home. Me and my kids always discuss movies we see on the ride home and they were RAVING about how good it was, and how cute the actors were. I got online that evening for reviews and looked at the 1 star ratings and there are a LOT of us!! I can't count how many times I've watched Dune 1 and have no desire to watch 2 again, but maybe I will once I can stream it. Maybe I missed something because this was not it!! LOL!!
@phoebeandem8015 this is so refreshing because i am just titred of hearing how great this is while i feel so frustrated lol. Particularly every time Zendaya popped up on the screen. As a book reader I seriously do not know how the director is going to fix this for messiah.
I told you that you would have a lot to talk about! I like the way you set up your video by talking about each change by themselves rather than chronologically, because there are so many changes to focus on and a lot were intertwined. Also, I don't mind that Alia wasn't born in this movie (although that does mean a LOT happens in less than a year) because I feel like they blended in aspects of the Cult of Alia into the character of Jessica.
Glad you liked the video! And you make such a good point of Jessica in the movie kind of foreshadowing what it will be like with Alia!
In the book the atomics used are the family weapons it’s one of the things that make a great house. Idaho is the one who hides them after the attack passing the information to Paul (this is implied as Idaho says he’s hidden them). The Grandfather that his mother and Hawait is Leto’s father a cold man full of bravado.
Oh, hmm I didn't catch that about the house atomics in the book. But they do talk about using the chemicals the worms create as well. And I assumed they were comparing him to the Baron but guess I was wrong about that too lol. Thanks for making the correction!
@@WhytheBookWins I'm really enjoying your videos. You were almost right about the Spice Mass. What Paul was threatening was to use the Water of Life to introduce it into a Pre Spice Mass which would actually cause a chain reaction amongst the Little Makers, the Sand Trout, which help create the Spice Mass in the first place. If they were to destroy that Vector of the Worm-Spice chain, it would destroy production of Spice.
Thank you for such a well-done, comprehensive and detailed video! I read Dune in 2019 and had gone fuzzy on many of the details, especially the 2nd half of the book. So this was a pleasure to view!
Glad the video was helpful! 😊
I love listening to you describe how you really started to love Frank Herbert's writing. A friend of mine bought me my first copy of Dune when I was in 7th grade, like 25 years ago. I fell in love with his writing style and he remains one of my favorites of all time. Keep reading the series! I don't really like Brian Herbert's writing much, but I highly recommend all of Frank Herbert's Dune novels. Especially the 4th book, God Emperor of Dune. My favorite book in the series. It has so many nuggets of wisdom and philosophy that blew my mind when I was younger, and really changed my perspective. A true masterpiece.
Yeah since this video I have read the first 4 books! I agree, the 4th was so good!! Leto was fascinating for so many reasons, and the Duncan Idaho was so interesting too.
YAY!!! Your going to watch both mini series (my fav version) =D Cant wait for that vid!
Bad creative choice not to include Allia. Or the Spacing Guild Navigators. So integral to the story telling of this Universe.
If I remember correctly, in the books Navigators don't actually appear until Dune Messiah.
I do wish Alia was in the movie though.
Alia was a baby acting like a full adult... so do you cast a child and then digitally move their mouth and facial expressions to match... or do you hire an adult and digitally turn them into a toddler... I get the challenge... but if you don't stick the landing... you are swimming in the uncanny valley.
Yeah we have the spacing guild in the first book but aren't introduced to the navigators till the second
Lynch introduced them (the navigators) in his film and I think it gives the non book readers real insight as to who the power players are in this universe. Plus, I just find them to be fascinating creatively speaking. Also, as for Alliah, I think if you look hard enough you could find a child actor small but older in years who could have portrayed Aliya.🤷🏽♀️
As someone who’s never read the book, I really enjoyed part two. I saw it in IMAX and it was an incredible experience. I haven’t stopped thinking about the movie ever since. I’m definitely going to try to watch it again in theaters ⚔️
Same! Definitely one that is well worth seeing multiple times in theater
The '84 movie is the reason I finally read the book, I wanted to understand the many, many questions I had.
I absolutely love the current films. There was just so much missing; Thufir, a complete understanding of just how precious water is, Alia, Paul's son, the passage of time... and so on. I did not mind most of the changes and I definitely recommend this films. Whenever I am in a conversation with someone I do try to get a grasp on weather or not they would enjoy the book because if I think they would like the other 75% of the details of this world then I try to get them a copy as soon as possible.
Thank you for your channel.
Thanks for commenting! I'm glad you like my channel ☺️
Excellent breakdown of all the changes between book & film! Good work, as always :)
Thanks! 😁
Here because none of my friends nerd-out about Dune like I do. Great breakdown. Both movies offer a great representation of the book, and are captivating if you pay attention (saw a few sleepers in the crowd at both movies but its okay).
Personally, I would have liked to see more of Hawat's storyline develop in the movie as it would have aided the showdown scene at the end. I would also have liked to see Gurney' beef with Lady Jessica play out in the film.
Was upset about how they handled the Alia time gap, as well as not mentioning Chani & Paul's kid. But I get they had to do something to make it cohesive for general film-goers. Good news is, they could make Dune the next big movie franchise! If they want to dive into all the details, they could write at least 6 more films.
Yeah I would love to see a couple more movies, but I hope they end it while they are still good because I would hate to see them drag it just to milk it for all it's worth.
Books and cinema both have their beauty and pleasures. I personally don’t care what is missing in the movie from the book. That is what the book is for. The creators of this movie only had the responsibility to make the best film they could, with a reasonable run time. Mission accomplished…
Yeah mission accomplished for sure!
@@WhytheBookWinsThe art of film adaptation in large measure is a faithful transfer of the overall sense and ideas of the source material-not every detail. Director Denis Villeneuve accomplishes this with the art of cinema-using visuals, show not tell, and smatterings of very brief (often disguised) exposition. It is not surprising that two of Villeneuve’s Top Five favorite films are 2001: A Space Odyssey and Apocalypse Now-two paragons of the art of film so often spoken about in the same breath. Both held up as among the very best at painting the cinematic canvas with grandeur and mystery…
To be honest I like the way Alia is handled, probably even more than the book. Her being a fetus really hammers home the idea that she’s preborn, and it’s just much more creepy than a little girl would be. Imo it came off goofy in the 84 movie and that’s not how Alia is supposed to come off. People are TERRIFIED of her.
What a cool concept for a channel!
Thanks!
14:24 In the book, Thufir helps Feyd discredit the slave master so they can replace him with another who will let him sneak the poison needle with the slave boy in the failed assassination attempt on the Barron
I definitely feel like they were trying to cut out as much of the Baron's... Activities... As they could while still keeping enough of the feyd story to make sense. It's already a miracle this movie ended up being PG-13, and i don't think including the weaponized underage sex slaves was integral to the dune experience.
@@restitvtororbis5330 😅😅 for sure!! That's definitely it. Apparently Thufir and Count fenring got cut for time so perhaps they may have added the non drugged combatant being the Barron's idea as a way to make it work without Thufir.
Thank you for clarifying! That makes sense now why they wanted the slave master dead.
And yeah, that detail about the Baron in the book was very disturbing
As far as a Thumpers go, because they're not organic perhaps the worms either regurgitate them or they come out the other end and they find them in the desert sometime to get recycled. A thumper is made of mechanical parts and it'd be like swallowing a nickel where it would just come out the other end if it doesn't get stuck.
oohh that's an interesting point!
@@WhytheBookWins it's just science with the fiction, the way sharks can't digest metal and glass they swallow.
If you don't want to watch the 1962 movie "Lawrence of Arabia" (3 yrs before Herbert's "Dune"), I suggest you read the 1926 published T.E. Lawrence novel "The Seven Pillars of Wisdom". You will find passages that will show Lawrence's influence on Herbert and his Dune novel and thus the adaptations. I.E. these stories are timeless.
I have seen Lawrence of Arabia, thanks for sharing the connection!
I've read the book a few times since I was a kid. I'm a huge fan. Having said that, I love the changes Denis Villanueve made, particularly in Part 2. In the book, I always felt that Jessica was the heart and soul of the story. As a reader, we love Paul because we so often see him through Jessica's eyes. We see the sacrifices she makes for him and Leto. And I think that's why Jessica has the last line in the book. She's comforting herself as much as she's comforting Chani, 'maybe I was just a concubine but I will always be remembered as the Duke's partner and the mother of his son.' Book Jessica is my favorite character. But I love Villanueve's changes. In the movie, Chani is, as you said, the moral compass of the story. Move Chani is the character I related to the most: YES, religion is a toll of opression, YES, it sucks. that Paul is losing his humanity. YES, the successful overthrow of Emperor Shaddam IV is a huge tragedy. I think they are both beautiful works of art and, in many ways, Villanueve does a better job of conveying Herbert's anti-messianic message than Herbert did in the books. Thank you for this lovely video comparison!
Very well put! Such a great point on how that last line is a reflection of Jessica and how she views things.
Thanks for sharing you thoughts and I'm glad you liked my comparison 😊
I enjoy the movie, even with the changes , I think part one and two are one of best dune movies we gotten, little more mix on Chani and Paul relationship and how those changes will affect the next movie if they make Dune Messiah , especially with the brith of twins a big part in Dune Messiah novel
Yeah I'm very curious what will happen with Chani! If they keep her angry and going against Paul that would cause the next movie to be very different than Dune Messiah
I liked them, I thought they made sense, especially for Alia and Jessica, for the time perspective in the movie, I felt like it was smart move instead of time jumping over and over in the movie. For Chani liked it, it makes her more interesting and complex and cant wait to see her next interactions with Paul and Irulan and being pregnant
Thanks for sharing! I'm definitely curious what the future holds for movie Chani.
Good job with this review
thanks!
What did you think of the changes they made to Chani and Jessica??
Didn’t really like the change.
I loved both in the first one, this one, not so much, especially Jessica. The weird voice, it was a little confusing to me if the "she" she kept referring to was the baby or the previous reverend mother, but the movie didn't take time to explain what was happening and why. The bene gesserits are fascinating to me, their powers and ways. This movie took alot of their magic away, to me. As I said above, i noticed Chani frowning almost the entire movie, weird close-ups of Zendaya, the way she kinda snarled at Jessica every time she spoke with her, and her riding off on a worm by herself, even though she was a fighter, and a great war was beginning. I felt like she was pregnant at the end and part 3 would show her baby with Paul.
I didn't like either. For Jessica, I think they wanted Paul to be more reluctant about using his Messiah status because it would make him more likable, so they chose to have Jessica basically force him into it. I think this decision made Paul's arc make less sense (combined with the absence of Alia and his Leto II) and it lost the complexity of Jessica's character. For Chani, they wanted to give her more to do (which is fine) and I think they were also uncomfortable with how the Islamic influences might come off, so wanted to create a friction in the Fremen over the prophecy, which ironically I think made the Fremen seem dumber compared to the book. Also, what makes Chani a cool character is that she's very methodical and practical (Stilgar is her uncle, she knows the Bene Gesserit ways, and she's practiced in politics), and actually encourages Paul's marriage to Irulan (even though she's not thrilled by it). The last part of the book where Jessica thinks about Chani is going to have the same fate as her (doomed to always be in danger and having to protect her family without having true political power) is very tragic and almost Shakespearean.
What I was the most disappointed about though was that they cut Tim Blake Nelson as Count Fenring, who I'm sure would have been perfect.
I actually liked how they changed Jessica. The first time I watched it I HATED how they changed Chani. Upon second watch, I understood the change and I’m ok with it. I’m very interested in how the plot will go forward in Dune Part 3.
I liked the changes
One comment. There is this rumor that Herbert’s wrote Messiah because he was disappointed of being misunderstood. This is a FALSE rumor. Herbert had the first three books already laid out in his mind before he signed his publishing agreement. DV said that and I don’t know where he got that from. Listen to FH discourse at UCLA 1985 where he talks about this.
Oh wow, thanks for sharing!
I’m not sold on having Chani carry the entire moral mantle in the movie. I think it makes more sense for Jessica and Gurney, who have known Paul all his life, to take on this role. In Dune 1, as in the first part of the book, Paul resents Jessica for essentially breeding and training him for this future. So in the second part of the book, it makes sense for her to contend with the choices she made, including some guilt. Gurney was Paul’s mentor. He helped shape Paul in the Atreides ways. So it’s more emotionally impactful for him to see Paul slowly veer away from those values. In the movie, especially, Chani JUST met Paul. The movie spends more time having Chani judging Paul than actually deepening their relationship. All the judging doesn’t feel earned. Chani is supposed to be Paul’s main connection to humanity, to love, and I just didn’t feel that between them. A little meet-cute in the dessert and a montage just isn’t enough.
Saw it in theatre last night!! Perfect timing
😁
Nope, the emperor did not have Sietch Tabr destroyed in the book. Sietch Tabr was actually abandoned pretty early in the book due to the continued attacks between Harkonnen and Fremen. Jessica was made Reverent Mother because the current one was too old and would not be able to survive the evacuation, and they “needed” a new one to kind of take along her memories. Becoming a Reverent Mother awakens the ancestral memories, not just those of other RMs. As Paul joins the Fremen and their resistance fights gradually broaden into a war, he is accepted as a war-leader due to his training as such by his father (and staff). His tactical knowledge allows the Fremen to push back the Harkonnen into a defensive stance, which Gurney Halleck acknowledges at their rejoining, recognizing the Fremen are now free to move as they want while the Harkonnen are holed up. That said, the Fremen have their losses too, especially since the Sardaukar never left Arrakis. Their losses during the Harkonnen retaking of Arrakis due to Fremen made them want to ensure none were left, because their reputation was supposed to be one of “unbeatability.”
When the emperor comes to Arrakis for the final showdown, he doesn’t believe the reports of the south being uninhabitable and has pictures taken from orbit. These reveal patches of green and habitation, so he joins a detachment of Sardaukar to investigate and is shocked that they barely escape alive. The south at that time has mostly the old people, women, and children, with all the men at war in the north. His foray results in the death of Pauls son and the captivity of Alia. That is how Alia ends up in the (temporary) throne room.
Thanks for the correction!
Love the videos! It seemed in the movie that Paul was already established as the Maud’dib-Messiah because the fedaykin already had flags with the Atreides bird on it. Like they were already ready to go to war for Maud’dib
The first film was almost a copy of the first 400 pages of the book but this newest one does a lot of restructuring of the plot, cutting out a lot of extra plot. I am curious what aspects of the last act of the book will be included into Dune Messiah when it comes out. Like Paul telling the Bene Gesserit that they can’t control him and him knowing he has a son with Chani, and his descent into darkness
I like the choice for the movie to not have the time skip. I think it would’ve messed up the pacing. I don’t think they cut Alia because it might be silly, and I’m 100% sure we’ll see her in the next one.
Yeah you make a good point an not the time jump potentially messing with the pace of the film!
With Alia though, in the next movie it seems she will be played by an adult, I speculated that they thought showing Alia as a very young child is what would come across as silly or weird.
@@WhytheBookWins I’m not sure she will be played by an adult, as that would mean there’s a big time skip in between movies. I don’t think they’ll do that large of a time skip in between movies since they would have to age everyone up, and I think Anya Taylor Joy is just in visions as adult Alia and is not completely indicative of how’ll she’ll appear in the next film. Could be wrong though.
I think you will enjoy the SF miniseries. My favorite portrayals of Chani, the Baron, Jessica and Irulan are in this series. Chani especially. She's perfect.
Messiah/Children is especially good. Dune suffers from some questionable costume design choices (a lot of very silly hats, but then again some that are very Jean Giraud Moebius!) and a low budget, but made up for by story fidelity. Both have great soundtracks too.
One thing I noticed when I watched some clips from the 1984 movie is that there were fremen children here and there while in the new movies I didn't see children at all. Maybe Villeneuve just didn't want any children at all in the production, including Alia.
I really liked both movies but I think the books are better. I also really like the Dune 1984 movie.
I think it was a cowardly creative choice to leave out Alia. A lot of today's films try to be too "grounded," and that can backfire when it comes to fantasy or science fiction films.
One of my favorite things about the Dune series is the science fiction-metaphysical weirdness.
I mean, c'mon, you have people riding giant worms and the first movie opens with the bizzare guttural Sardukar quote!
So I believe it was omitted because it was "too weird." How the Baron now dies was very generic and predictable (How about womb Alia takes control of Jessica and she kills the Baron)?
I loved Aliya's portrayal in both 1984 and the SF Channel miniseries (here she was especially great, with more screentime).
She's my favorite character!
After reading all the books I'd like to see a movie based on Count Fenring. He is such a complicated character
Concerning Alia, I'm pretty sure the issue was primarily due to Villeneuve wanting to accelerate the pace of the events taking place, to avoid having to do a time jump. I'm sure casting a child able to convey wisdom beyond their age convincingly was another reason though, and trying to do it digitally would have just failed, I'm most certain. It's a total bummer to not have her in the movie and killing the Baron or interact with Mohiam, but I think I understand why it was done this way, so I accept it. This causes a slight issue for Dune Part 3 though, as Alia was originally born Fremen, in a sietch, and therefore stayed on Arrakis with her brother to rule the Imperium. In the books, Jessica returns to Caladan. Does that mean she going to be born there then? And if so, why would she later leave there to go to Arrakis, a world she has never learned to love nor see as her homeworld? /shrug
And about the slavemaster, it was really confusing reading and understanding that bit. I ---think--- Feyd and Thuffir wanted the current slavemaster killed so he could be replaced by another under their control that would later try to assassinate the Baron, hidding a poison needle in his thigh, during one of his sexual indiscretions at a later time. Did I get that right?
The changes to Chani pretty much make her the hero of Part 2. She loved the Paul who wanted nothing to do with the Lisan al-Gaib prophecy, who didn't want power, who was her equal. She was a non-believer and she saw these myths *exactly* for what they were: a mean of control - and Paul knew just as much. And so, when Paul finally fully embrassed his messiah status and exerted full control over the Freman, she could no longer recognise him as the man she loved. She still fought for her people to the end, to free Arrakis from the Harkonnens, but she could no longer follow Paul - she is uncompromising in this way, and I LOVED that. It at least gives ONE character that isn't insane in this mad world. In the book, her character is so horribly compliant and she doesn't have much of an active role, except to revive Paul I guess. Her character is even worst in Dune Messiah where she continues to be compliant and essentially becomes a human incubator and dies in childbirth, because of course, that stupid trope... I like movie Chani so much more.
Also loved the additions of Irulan in some scenes of her own, already working on her many books, as well as the continuing scheming of the Bene Gesserit. I liked that a lot.
Overall, I really loved the movie for the most part, sad to not have Alia in the flesh, but we do have her presence in some fashion still. And I think making Paul more clearly a semi-villain by the end of the movie is best especially when you know how Herbert's original message was so misunderstood.
Yeah you're probably right that it comes down to them streamlining the plot!
And I think that must be it about why they wanted the the slave master killed! That makes sense. When Feyd tries to kill the Baron using the slave boy i think the Baron even brings up the slave master from that fight. And yet I hadn't made the connection 😅
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! Glad to hear you liked the movie as well 😀
I think the final line is actually a positive one. That both the reality and the historical view will be just. while only the superfiscial open lie isnt all that consequental.
In reading the book once again, I don't agree that the references to Paul's grandfather were references to Barron Harrkonen, because elsewhere throughout the book, there were observations that Paul was like the Old Duke, referring I assumed to Leto Atreides father; and also, very few knew that genetic truth.
I think you are right! My mistake. Jessica and Thurfir make this observation and Jessica knows the truth, and I guess I assumed Thufir must have found out as well but again, I think I was mistaken on that and they were thinking of Leto's dad.
I am a big fan of Alia in the Dune and Dune Messiah books, Dune 1984, and Dune 2 the new film. I don’t like what happens to her in the novel Children of Dune and 2003 mini-series…
Yeah she is such a great character not I didn't always love where Herbert went with her.
Thanks for the kind reply! The biggest part of what I don’t like about what happens to Alia is her getting possessed by the Baron. I was happy that this coward bully gets ended swiftly and unceremoniously especially in the film Dune 2-undeserving of any dignity or glory. I did not want his presence to return.
Rabban likewise got terminated quickly by Gurney in Dune 2-Rabban not deserving to go out like a “boss”…
I understood a lot of the changes (I didn't like them but understood them), but I was genuinely perplexed by the lack of ecology in it. The movie makes the collected water seem like woo-woo superstition, when the reality is that they're collecting it for the hope of terraforming Arrakis into a planet their descendants can flourish in. The reason Kynes is won over to Paul is that Paul promises to terraform Arrakis and not be overcome by greed for the spice. It's an incredibly ahead of its time plotpoint and it gives agency to the Fremen in their alliances with Paul. Cutting it out made the Fremen just seem dumb and superstitious with no goals or leadership.
Yeah that's so true! Kynes in general is downplayed a lot in the movie because in the book he inspired thr Fremen to make real plans for this new world.
I think that the reason Feyd is more sadistic is because they took that quality away from the harkonnen mentat Piter, so they basically just made Feyd-Rautha have Piter's book personality to an extent.
Yeah, the Baron also isn't in this one as much it seems, so they focused on Feyd being the biggest bad guy I guess.
It's not just that Dune part 2 isn't true to the source material there's also a lot of dumb scenes and wasted screentime. Like every time a Harkonnen was on screen they had to kill an underling because the audience needs to be constantly reminded these are the bad guys or Chani screaming "this is how they control us" during the Fremen gathering as if the audience is too stupid to pick up on that subtext. From what I understand Dune part 1 got criticism for being too esoteric so the director chose to spoon feed the plot and make all the characters one-dimensional to make the film have broader appeal. Basically the unread masses laped it up and everyone else was left scratching their heads and wondering where the hell they're going with Dune 3.
Minute 27:30
Paul picks one Freman to tell him his Grand Mother lost an eye because a rock fell on her. That women's name was DUNE ! Was this in the book ?
He was saying the planet was called Dune, not the mother. But this exact scene is not in the book though the planet is referred to as Dune as well as Arrakis.
Pretty sure they wanted to kill the slavemaster cause the assassination attempt was meant to be by a slave with a poison needle planted on his thigh when the baron requested one. So they had to plant the slavemaster there so they could then plant the slave itself.
I think the prophecy is both real and self fulfilling; the bene gesserit have been coming up with this prophecy for millennia, and I think Jessica also made it happen but that's also part of the prophecy in a way??? For me it shows how faith works: if you believe it, it is real. And if you don't, it's not.
Yeah very true
People are missing that there are essentially two prophecies at play - the kwisatz haderach "prophecy" and the Lisan al Gaib prophecy. The KH "prophecy" isn't really a prophecy - it was a carefully executed plan that Jessica upset at the end by making Paul a boy instead of a girl, making the KH happen earlier than expected. The Lisan al gaib stuff was completely fictitious and used to manipulate the Fremen, which is why centuries / millennia past the Bene Gesserit planted it among them - in case they would one day need to manipulate the Fremen like that. So Paul is the KH, but not the Lisan al Gaib because there is no Lisan al Gaib - it was a fiction. Paul and Jessica both know this, its a sham. The only reason it "comes true" is because Paul makes it come true so that they believe in him, so he can use them.
Great breakdown 👍👍👍
Thank you! 😊
I too was super bummed with no Alia....was all excited waiting for that scene at the end with her and the barron and the emperor and stuff ....
The Freemen exchange gifts on Paul’s birthday. 😶
I'd like to survey people just after they've watched the film and, after separating those who have read the first book (and probably having to separate based on whether or not they've read the second and third books), then asking a few basic questions.
1) Why is the planet Arrakis important?
2) Why is the spice important?
3) What are the basics of the "Prophecy" - where did it come from, what are the content of the beliefs held by some of the Fremen?
4) What is Paul actually offering (or "fulfilling", if you prefer) in his role as Mahdi?
5) What is the "paradise" that's being referred to at the conclusion? (I realise I'm kind of re-stating (4) here but I'm thinking of someone who answers in a certain way)
And so on. I suspect most folks picked up that the Prophecy was a Bene Gesserit plant, a fail-safe, a backup plan that kind of went a bit rogue.
The rest? Unless one has read the books....
Yeah that would be interesting 👀
So many great scenes not included, I was really looking forward to seeing Paul being escorted and protected by Harah's children.
During the big Fremen meeting at which Paul becomes their leader, Guerney does actually say that Harkonnen have killed his family. But then, when he gets his revenge, he says that this is for his duke and his friends. I assume they had his story in at some point, but it's one of many cuts.
I would've loved to see little Alia; she's iconic. But I get the practical limitations. And I'd be fine with it, if it weren't for the decision to already cast an adult Alia, which poses problems for Part Three.
Jessica and Chani also make sense in isolation, but not with Villeneuve wanting to adapt Dune Messiah as well. If we don't get the twins, I'll flip a table. As would WB and Legendary due to him cutting their hit film franchise short. And I find it ironic that Villeneuve made Chani a viewpoint to drive home the message (which still went over the heads of the usual suspects), while making film Paul decidedly less dark than book Paul.
True, I know there were a number of scenes cut from the final product!
And yeah, I'm very curious to see what happens with Chani and the twins and how they are able to make that work.
The book could be clunky at times and then just blindside you with the most beautifully written quote you've ever heard. I wish some more of Herbert's words made it into the mouths of the characters on screen.
Yeah very true
i see your "Shutter Island" in the background....great movie....don't know about the book
Yeah! Both are amazing! I have s book vs movie video for it as well
I have a question for you guys about Part 3. Do you want Denis to show the Jihad and adapt the third act of Messiah in order to include more action, or do you want him to stay as close to the plot of the book as possible?
Im not talking any major changes from the book; the core narrative of the conspirators working against Paul would remain basically the same. maybe the idea of the fremen rebellion could be expanded upon for a third act battle, and the movie could open with a major battle from the Jihad to set up the events of the story. I think that even with showing parts of the Jihad and adding more action there would still be plenty of time for slow character moments. What do you guys think?
I'm not big on big battle scenes, so I'm fine if they show little to none of the Jihad.
Paul, in the books, alluded to a possible future where he himself confronted the Baron....and i was all for it....but that was NOT a confrontation
Yeah, he was already knocked down and crawling by the time Paul kills him.
@@WhytheBookWins yup, took me out of the entire Dune concept...then again, the book God Emporer of Dune take me out of the Dune universe....that is CLEARLY Herbert's ATTEMPT at writing comedy....i think he failed.....though, to be honest, by the time they bring in Malky, in person, i thing Herbert found his ability to do comedy......but the entire book UPTO that point was so hard to read
Glad I was not the only one who was confused by the thumpers that are used like they grown on trees.
A commenter compared them to military weapons or grenades which are one time use which I thought made sense.
The Paul/Chani thing at the end of the book mirrors Leto/Jessica. Paul is making the same mistake his father made for basically the same reasons. At the time, I suppose it could have been quite the feminist message - you don't need marriage or domestication to be in love with and soulmates with somebody.
Love your subtle advertisement for nair
Looool Austin Butler def looks better with hair 😆
In Villeneuve's version, its Jessica who is driving Paul towards the Jihad!!! She even gets the last lines on the start of the jihad
The basically got rid of the importance of the Spacing Guild and turned the spice into a macguffin.
There is a theme that I am not particularly thrilled it is missing in the movie, but maybe it is only my impression from the book. It is that Chani is introduced kinda like a scary character in the book. She is almost ordered to assist Paul and Jessica, I don't remember her doing it on her own wim. The fact that she is interpreted by Zendaya is a problem to me, even though a pleasure to the eye, I won't lie. Also the fact that nobody needs to strip here is pretty refreshing: I mean, the only one was Leto.
But Zendaya kinda looks too nice for her own good, I think. She also comes out too American, with that accent, that you find it hard to believe she is actually fremen. The relationship with doctor Kynes being her father (mother) is missing, too; that would probably serve as a justification why she might be different from the other fremen women, but hey. The point is that Zendaya as an acress always gives out the same vibe, if you know what I mean: here's Zedaya being Spiderman's girlfriend, there's Zendaya being a Fremen, here's Zendaya dating two guys, Zendaya is angry, Zendaya is happy, etc. She performs some good scenes but they are characteristically the ones when she is not required to be tough, when she is vulnerable and hurt. And I very much like the theme and the ending of the movie, and the reasons for the changes because I am so tired hearing people completely misinterpreting the book on the mere fact that Herber maybe was political more on the right.
You know, many people accuse these books of being colonialist, racist, misogynist, and by extension so are accused the people who love them. Despite the the fact that the Fremen's is indeed a patriarchal society, and what would you expect in those condition, I don't know. Despite the fact that this is balanced by the power of the reverend mothers as a spiritual guide and the fact that Fremen women are trained to defend themselves, I have always found the entire setup fascinating and provoking.
So, the funny thing here is that we have a character that is completely subverted from being the perfect Fremen woman (expected to have strong children in order to fight and all that stuff) to being a rebellious and defiant girlfriend: she even stands at the end with Irulan, despite everybody bowing to the new emperor.
And I don't see too much complaining. I wonder if it's because the movie is good, whereas in other cases it is not... As if the changes actually made sense and didn't destroy characters, open silly plot holes and such. I wonder.
By the way, another change I liked is Stilgar: she comes out as a comic relief at times but that's great: it's tragical and comedic at the same time, and I think it actually deepens the tragedy of the man who decides to follow an off-worlder and sentence many of his people to death.
Is it "ok" to say Dune 2 finishes book 1, and the sequence (Dune 3) would be Ace Dune Messiah?
Yeah, Dune and Dune Part Two just cover the first Dune book. Do the third dune movie will be an adaptation of the second book.
Have you ever read A Song of Ice and Fire ? I think you might like it, despite being fantasy it has a lot of similarities with Dune and it's a perfect example on why the book wins 😂😂
I haven't read that and to be honest, as much as I have enjoyed reading the Dune books, I don't think I'll have it in my to read any more fantasy for a while lol. In general, it's just not my preferred genre.
great video !!!
Thanks!
Honestly not having Alia was so annoying to me lol the timeline is just weird. Jessica was already pregnant in the middle of pt1 + Paul has a vision of Jessica holding Alia so….. It implies that Alia would’ve been present in pt2( at least I thought) but no she’s a whole embryo STILL… I truly believe they took the easy way out with her character they could’ve simply casted a young actress to play the role of Alia maybe not a two-year-old per-se but simply a child actress from the age of 8 through 12 would’ve done a decent job. Idc. She’s such a great character that adds so much to the story & excluding her out really irked me….
Yeah the talking fetus was cool and unique (though we didn't even get as much of that as I would have liked tbh), but not seeing her as a real character was disappointing.
@@WhytheBookWins absolutely!!!! Great video btw I adore your content !! Can’t wait to see what else you upload (:
I actually kind of like the all knowing fetus change
Yeah it was pretty weird and cool! Still sad not seeing Alia, but yeah, this change was a cool take on it.
As adaptations, Dune I and II were marvelous. As far as differences from the book 1, name any film adaptations of a novel that perfectly copied all the details and themes of a book.
I agree, the new movies are amazing! And I definitely don't think an adaptation should keep everything from the book. When movies do that it tends not to turn out well.
I dislike that the movie outright makes Paul into a villain. There is no one left to root for in the movie. Putting author's message about messiahs front an centre was a mistake. Seems that we can't have subtlety even in more serious movies nowadays, just gotta tell the viewer what to think!
Yeah, you make a good point!
I couldn't make heads or tails of what the film was trying to do with Paul's character. There's the blatant expository dialogue with him explaining his visions of unforetold deaths if he is to become the Lisan al Gaib, yet it's also implied (at least before he drinks the Water of Life) that his visions are unclear and not necessarily so reliable. And we get Chani's distrust of him as a leader, believing it will lead to the enslavement of the Fremen, similar to how he distrusts himself. Yet there's not much reliably shown (as opposed to possibly unreliably explained) in the films to back up these doubts towards Paul unless we just take these characters' words for it.
So in many ways, the film does seem to be beating us over the head more with a hammer foreshadowing that Paul is likely to become a corrupt theocratic dictator and war criminal, but at the same time it seems to make us us further doubt whether that blatant hammer is real. I just felt like I was getting mixed messages throughout the film and couldn't resonate with the core character motivations and conflicts.
Also I think the film makes it out like the Water of Life is what's going to turn Paul into a tyrant, not that he had such tyrannical potential already there all along. That really undermines the anti-Messiah theme if this is how things are going to play out.
Yayyyy new video
😊
There are people like me who just cannot read fiction (ask me to read a 700-page brick on European sociology, no problem, but novels and short novels simply bore me out, I just can't get interested), so silly as it may sound, the book can never win for me, since I'll never be able to read it in the first place !
Yeah I know people who just can't into reading fiction!
The core problem with Herbert's intended message is that Paul actually *is* superhuman. Thus, it is right and correct for him to be worshipped as such. Perhaps you could say it's taken too far and that he should not be elevated to "God-level" but if someone today did what Paul does in the Dune story, he would rightly be looked upon as supernatural. And then, of course, his son takes it to an entirely new level himself.
So if Herbert's point was that we shouldn't elevate NORMAL human beings to godhood, it's an odd way to do it when your main character is NOT a normal human being.
I'm just sad I'll not get my worm man AGAIN. Cause that's def too weird for the movie creators haha
I would love to see God Emperor adapted! Even as an animated movie it would be really cool
In the movie, he said in my Father's name.
This is one way to start my day 😊
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It did look stupid having a little girl with blue eyes show up in the 84 version. So yeah, she works in the book but maybe not the best on screen.
To be honest, I was pretty grumpy about Peter Jackson's LotR for making several plot changes, most notably replacing Glorfindel with Arwen, but still enjoyed it. Dune part 2 I walked away with a feeling that I would probably buy the DVDs, but get angry every time I watch it. The point is not that you must be careful using religion, but that normal people can easily get swept along and become believers. In the book Stilgar is religious, sure, but he starts out as being a good naib, putting the good of the tribe before his own feelings. Paul was shocked and at a loss when he saw Stilgar become a Muad'Dib believer. What Herbert was trying to convey is not "stay away from fundamentalists," as the movie does, but "be careful with religion, because, just as love, it is a force that can overpower anyone." And I'll never forgive Villeneuve for breaking up the love between Paul and Chani. She fell in love, stayed in love, and their bond was strong and a major force to be reckoned with.
Regarding the fulfilled prophecies...Paul is trained by a mentat, by the best BG, exposed to spice and, most importantly, genetically ALMOST KW. He was having all the prerequisites to be convincing as KW, but he wasn't. The movies crushed my soul. Majestic spectacle with so meny talented people, but not my Dune. I'm happy for the book readers who like it, I wish I was you.
Oh, please do mini series! So many technical misses, and I don't even think that Paul's casting was as good as Timotees'. Still, I m gonna re-watch it now to wash out the taste of these epic spectacle-over-substance movies. Subjective preferences. Im also looking forward to Denise's movies that are NOT Dune.
Sorry to hear you don't like the new movies! I will definitely be watching the miniseries, there is a lot of love for it!
@WhytheBookWins A bit of warning re mini series: the production was really really inferior to this Goliath of sensory syimuli. The special efects...ugh. But the complexity of the characters, themes, and plotlines was wonderful (to me). The actors are good too: Kevin Heart, Saskia Reeves, Susan Sarandon, James McAvoy...
Looking forward to your take (whatever it might be)!
I disagree a bit with what Herbert (and by extension Villeneuve) claim the book/story is about. I think it is more about meaning. Herbert seems a bit "60s" in his emphasis on the dangers of "power" (itself a vague abstraction of questionable philosophical clarity). The story is fantastic though. People create meaning in their lives, even if it reproduces patterns that have been laid down before them. The true error is to think meaning is false simply because it adheres to a preconceived pattern.
Very good analysis. Nice job. So much more insightful and nuanced than all the "intellectual youtube bros" that think they know everything.
Thanks!!
Low key hate what they did with chani, in this part, I think they did it to make it more obvious to the audience that Paul is the bad guy. But I think if they kept her personality from the books people would still know Paul is bad
lol typed this before I saw the end of the video l
Thanks for sharing your thoughts! It was definitely an unexpected change for book readers.
I truly believe some book readers are as annoying as those who moaned about LOTR changes to the book. Party poopers who never liked the work for the good reason
You need to compare Dune and Dune: Messiah to the movie. The changes clearly setup the events of Dune: Messiah.
Yeah definitely. Although I wonder how their change to Chani will affect the next movie since in Dune Messiah they are together.
@@WhytheBookWins my guess Chani is already pregnant and will have the children in the desert. The movie might end with Chani and Paul walking into the desert. But I am wondering about Lady Jessica. Her character is missing from Messiah.
@@Dularr I hope not, that would ruin the tragedy of Messiah imo
@@stephengrant4841 it is a tricky story element. A bit melodramatic, almost soap opera level.
I just thought you mentioned The Fremen having a high tolerance to The Spice as it's in the air so they naturally have an intake ,so what happens when they go on jihad otherworld warfare.?Do they not have severe withdrawals. 21:09
Ok so the answer is they must take alot with them .but imagine they run out?
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Count Fasimir Fenring was also a childhood friend of Duke Leto and Emperor Shaddam IV. His wife is the Bene Gesseret Sister who seduces Feyd Rautha.
Dune the books : blah blah the universe is run by maggot poop blah
Dune the movies : legs-akimbo anime poses to very loud Hans Z Arabish riffs
Dune the videogame : OUR BASE IS UNDER ATTACK
Dune the reality : I'm not drinking my own pee. Look, I'll drink your pee and you can drink my pee. What do you mean, "we haven't even left the hotel room yet", what's that got to do with anything?
Has anyone told you you look like Jennifer Grey?
Yeah haha, I like hearing it though 😊
As a Dune fan Dune Part 1 made me fall asleep. Dune Part 2 made me angry!
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I have a hard time reading books, brain wont quiet enough to do so, last book i read fuly took me like a year to do so. I love Dune 1 and 2 so much I started reading the books, i have like 100 pages of Children of Dune left. I tried audiobook as thats how i usually do books, but Dune is so dry in audiobook (pun kindof intended)
My only complaints about the movies are:
1) I paid for the whole seat but I only used the edge.
2) Christopher Walken was a bad cast for the Emperor.
Christopher Walken is never a character, hes always Christopher Walken as a character.
I'm not used to reading fantasy type books with so much world building, so I had to physically read them! I tried the audiobook and had a hard time following lol. But in general, I love audiobooks!
Your first complaint 😆 I agree though, the movie had me captivated the entire time!
@@WhytheBookWins The whole, "I LEAD THE WAY" Scene had me catching flies my jaw was on the floor. Having never read the books at the time I was watching with my teenage kid, half way through we were discussing that Paul was a hero... then it happens and we both went :O "Nevermind" lol
Your opinion questions. I have never seen anything that Herbert never wrote DUNE to have meaning or symbolism about anything with this story except leaders. What is your opinion?
Later people started applying the book to meanings that I don't believe was Herbert intentions ever.
For example how foreign governments need for oil and their need for oil, was the most important thing. Later applying that logic to other things for example, they even started teaching a college class in the 70's at UCLA (I believe) using Dune as a class book. I don't think Herbert ever meant the books to be a symbol for anyone except be careful with leaders, even ones that you like or even voted for. Because leaders CHANGE!!!
I agree/ like your closing comments, was the prophecy ever really, did the Bene Gesserit ever believe that themselves or was it made up such a long time ago, maybe they have even forgotten about it the true meaning since their beginning. Maybe they idea if creating a false super leader that was in reality never going to arrive was easier to sell the idea of a man will be king (emperor) one day. Because why would a order of women have a prophecy that 1 day a man would return to be their leader, but until then you need a woman from our order at every family (kingdom) as an advisor. So they made themselves to be more important than they truly are. This is why I always tell people Dune is not a syfy book but a political book.
But I disagree, art is awesome, because I think Bune 1 movie did a good job building the world and getting the idea out to people who are not familiar with book, but Dune 2 after 3 hours left out so much and I don't like their changes, I didn't think the changes did a good enough job to getting the right messages across to the audience.
Ok this case I feel the movie improved the story
Maybe I miss understood your explanation (but I watched that in your video 3 times) or if you choose to not to talk more about this scene with Chani and "desert tears" but I found this entire scene nothing but wokenes. Are you paying Zendaya so much money, we need to give her more important rolls/ lines. So no man can do anything without a woman. Plus her entire character is opposite to book, full of doubt will Paul in the movie but the Book 100% supporting Paul. Also with his sister killing the Barron, has great meaning/purpose in book 2 but definitely in book 3.
Desert tears meaning when she woke him up from the water of life? Yeah I say how that was her fulfilling a prophecy in the movie but in the book, Chani wanted Paul up but it isn't with her tear and it isn't prophecy.
I believe they wouldn’t want to risk looking as dumb and weird(not cute weird, more like, get the fudge out of my sight you give me the creeps type of weird 🫣) like the Renesme situation in twilight hahahah we don’t need that kind of monstrosity out in the open again 👽👁️👄👁️
Lol I thought of Reneseme too! Yeah definitely don't want another situation like that 😆
I loved the switch n changing of alia n having her stay in the womb. It just make more sense when your trying to bring actual literature to the big screen n making decsion after decsion keeping plots n cutting plots from . We all know how importaint alia is to the whole story however I 100 percent enjoyed paul ascension throughout the film and I think bringing alia into the fold in the movie would complicate the plot more. Plus it just makes me want to watch part 3 even more wanting to see how the director handles the changeing the story. I like it
Yeah that's a good point!