I spent 12 years as a soldier (Infantry & Cav Scout). The guys who looked like football players were not the ones who succeeded in most cases - it was the little wiry guys who could go the distance. My platoon sergeant at one point - former 101st Airborne fought in Vietnam and survived the battle of Hill 937 in the A Shau Valley - "Hamburger Hill" - was a short skinny dude that you wouldn't think could take you on at first glance. Don't judge a book by its cover - while there are people who are stereotypical, most people are not from my own experience. This makes life, and characters in our stories, much more interesting imho.
Exactly. I am a former Marine and I was once by a platoon of Navy Seals mustering for formation and almost all of them looked like stereotypical nerds. Skinny, short, and most were wearing glasses. As a short, skinny, glasses wearing nerd I felt vindicated, especially when the big buffed Marine I dropped off at the base for Seal trials got sent back to my platoon in under a week. Most Marines could not hang with me at the pull-up bar, running, humping packs, or in the classroom. So, yea, do not underestimate somebody because of their size. In the book Paul is described as being short for his age and slight of build, which I think fits Chalamet just fine.
@@edwinalvarez3783 well if you're skinny it will be easier to do endurance calisthenic based workouts because you weigh less. But that is not the point that I think her brother is making because he highlighted skinny athletic people like Michael Jordan and Bruce Lee, I think what he saying is that Timothy does not even appear like someone who runs does pull ups or anything and I agree. As a teenager I mostly did calisthenics to train and I was ripped but I still appeared skinny until I took off my shirt as are many athletes like soccer players, basketball player, mma fighters ect.
As someone who fences, Paul actually had his feet properly set and positioned at en garde; Feyd Rautha did not. Maybe a little less time hitting the weights and more time working on the basics would have helped.
You are wrong about Chalamet casting. In the book, he is described as small for his age, and a teenager. Paul wins because of his intellect and training,. Also, consider Lawrence of Arabia, both in history and in the movie. A scrawny, effeminate, nerdish book worm, convinces the Bedouin that he is a "Mahdi" with his charisma. The charisma is his genuine love and recognition of their culture. Same with Paul,.
That was before the time jump, in the books. It was said that Atreides men were typically late bloomers. Since there was no real time jump in the films, he should've been more muscular from the start.
@@Kyljys-pt4up He is only described as small for his age at the beginning and is said (by Jessica herself) that Atreides males are late bloomers. So it is implied that he would get more muscular. Especially living amongst the Fremen, which is a rigorous life. The sandwalking alone would naturally make him more muscular. Combine that with an assumed growth spurt and it's not a stretch to belive he would be more muscular at the end of the book. Not some Hulking bodybuilder, of course, but certainly more muscular than he in Dune part 2.
@@plo617 Hmm, I went looking for a description of him from the fight with Feyd, because it was done without stillsuit: "The Emperor was studying Feyd-Rautha, seeing the heavy shoulders, the thick muscles. He turned to look at Paul-a stringy whipcord of a youth, not as desiccated as the Arrakeen natives, but with ribs there to count, and sunken in the flanks so that the ripple and gather of muscles could be followed under the skin." doesn't sound very muscular. That dessicated look might be impossible for an actor to get, though.
Hello! New to your channel. Love your review of dune. I disagree a lot with your bro and found his commentary to be lackluster. but that’s okay especially since he’s just a guest appearance. Hope to see more of your commentary in the future 🎉
This is off topic and unrelated to the video, but I’m new to your channel. I love watching videos of people talking about the movie adaptions of books. I don’t know if these suggestions are in your arsenals for consideration but I would love to hear your thoughts on Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley and A Rage in Harlem by Chester Himes. Both black books turned into movies.
Interesting discussion, I think there’s going to be time jump in the next movie, probably will get the twins in movie , I think in recent interviews there some interest in a children’s of Dune movie
I just finished reading the whole first book trilogy. They are definitely better than the movie adaptations. So I say… read the books. But with my vague interest in this franchise I’ve decided to stop reading it after reading the third book completing the whole first trilogy.
I'm late to the party on this video, but I guess news about the new Messiah movie made it relevant to my suggested watching list... anyway I'm here now. To begin, Frank Herbert had a TRILOGY planned from the start. The stories of Messiah being written to correct the views of readers who got it wrong... are wrong... or paint an incomplete picture of the scenario. Now... my problem with DV's Adaptation starts starts with the problem with Paul, and subsequently, Chani was changed to emphasize the WRONG message about Paul. This was all stemming from a misunderstanding of his character and the themes of Dune, that I often see repeated in these youtube videos. Yes, he was a charismatic leader. Yes, Frank Herbert's message was to beware blindly following charismatic leaders. The REASON for this, was that people who blindly follow others turn off their brains and don't think for themselves. It's not because Paul was a tyrant, or a bad leader. Paul had faults. Paul made bad decisions. Frank Herbert also wanted to emphasize that any leader's mistakes had much greater impacts, the more people they effect. Paul essentially had control of the entire Imperium, so any mistakes were magnified a billion fold. Again, not because he was a BAD person, or a bad leader. Multiple times throughout the books, we are warned against the main theme: Think for yourself and beware of Blind Spots. In the Butlerian Jihad, the people had turned their thinking over to machines. “Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.” “ ‘Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind,’ ” Paul quoted. “Right out of the Butlerian Jihad and the Orange Catholic Bible,” she said. “But what the O.C. Bible should’ve said is: ‘Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind.’ Have you studied the Mentat in your service?” “I’ve studied with Thufir Hawat.” “The Great Revolt took away a crutch,” she said. “It forced human minds to develop. Schools were started to train human talents.” This warning was against letting machines think for us. Again, the main theme is: Don't turn your decision making processes over to anyone, or any thing else; this includes charismatic leaders, thinking machines, religions, governments, the crowd of other people, etc. Paul Atreides was set up as the ULTIMATE Blind Spot - the best case scenario to be a leader of humanity. * He and his family were known as benevolent people who wanted the best for their subjects. * He was trained as a Mentat, allowing him to process all the information he gathered and produce the most logical conclusions possible. * He was trained as a Bene Gesserit, allowing him extreme control of his body with their Prana Bindu exercises leading to the fighting style of the Weirding Way, and techniques such as the Voice, granting him the ability to force compliance with his commands. Bene Gesserit perception was also a boon, allowing him to detect discreet motions and changes in people and the environment that gave him insights into a great many things, enhanced by his Mentat training to actually make use of all that data. * Paul also had the prescient foresight of the Guild Navigators, allowing him to actually see the future, and the consequences of his choices. * AND Paul (eventually) had access to the genetic memory of all humanity in his genetic history, like the reverend mothers, but included the male side as well. He was, indeed, much more than the Kwisatz Haderach. To top it all off, this leader was handed a devoted nation of warriors to lead, through their own religion, and some meddling of the Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva (instilling in the Fremen their prophesies about the chosen one and his mother.) And here's the kicker: even a leader with ALL of those characteristics was powerless to lead the people down a good path, because of the bureaucrat filled government that grew up around him, and the religious zealotry of the Fremen that made him into a figurehead... he was powerless, despite being the most powerful ruler humanity had ever known up to that point. Despite his best efforts to blunt the jihad, it would have proceeded against his will, even if he had died before taking the throne. All he could do, was direct it to cause the least death possible, while staying on the Golden Path. It is ultimately foolish to put your blind trust in a human, no matter their best intentions and abilities. Before I end this first point, EVEN PRESCIENCE was warned against as a blind spot. You can't even put your trust in that, in a world where such a thing exists... the pitfall of that Blind Spot is probably the biggest one in the series. (Frank Herbert did believe in "oracular sight" such as claimed to be had by the ancient oracles as something that existed, and he and/or his wife practiced reading Tarot cards.) (Main post Continued in reply: The problem with Chani.) SPOILERS beyond, for the whole series written by Frank Herbert (examples of blind spots) As to other Blind Spots, Prescience was the biggest blind spot. Another way to look at it is: *Blind Spots make you stop thinking about that thing.* Assumptions are blind spots. * Jessica was a blind spot to the Bene Gesserit, since they assumed she was under their authority down to the letter, yet she acted against them for her love for her Duke. * Dr. Yueh was the Atreides blind spot, because everyone knows a Suk doctor can be trusted with the life of the Emperor, without fearing for their safety. * Duke Leto was a blind spot to the Baron, so the tooth trick nearly worked. * Feyd Rautha's White and Black daggers illustrated another blind spot, since "everyone" knew that he kept one poisoned, and the other not... but he switched which one he poisoned. * The God Emperor was breeding into the human race a genetic trait to make them invisible to prescient sight to protect them from a future danger. * They eventually created No-ships, that were capable of protecting anything done within them from prescient sight.
The Problem with Chani The Chani of the books: Chani was not an invisible character in the books. She had "agency" and a life of her own. She thought for herself, certainly not doing everything Paul told her to do, which caused them to have disagreements. In the book, Chani wasn't just a mindless follower. She is a priestess. She believes in the prophesies of the Fremen messiah, no matter if that was twisted by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva. As Stilgar said, "“Among us,” he said, “the Sayyadina, when they are not the formal leaders, hold a special place of honor. They teach. They maintain the strength of God here.” (his hand to his heart.) Naturally, as someone so strong in their beliefs, she would be an ardent follower of one they identified as the messiah. This was even deeper for her, as they shared love, and had a child together. During the spice "event" after the changing of the waters, she saw their future together as all the Fremen have a prescient event together at that time. What they shared in that moment cemented their relationship as if a marriage ceremony. She had a glimpse of their future, which seems to have included the Fremen interstellar wars to come, whether or not she remembered much of what she saw after the event, as the Fremen seemed to reject the thought that they were seeing the real future, as it terrified them to think that. During that prescient sharing, the two of them practically lived their future lives together in a single night. Quote from the end of that chapter: "The drug had him again and he thought: So many times you’ve given me comfort and forgetfulness. He felt anew the hyperillumination with its high-relief imagery of time, sensed his future becoming memories-the tender indignities of physical love, the sharing and communion of selves, the softness and the violence. “You’re the strong one, Chani,” he muttered. “Stay with me.” “Always,” she said, and kissed his cheek." She knew the future he saw, and the terrible burden it was placing on him, and she would have seen that he would do all in his power to avoid the worst of it. This all drew her to him. She was intimately close to him after that. The only people to come close to having that much understanding of Paul, were SPOILERS his twin children who shared in his memory and prescient ability. Their relationship started early on, at least for Paul. Then, both Paul and Chani's fathers were killed in the Harkonnen attack, so they bonded over the shared loss (changing Kynes to a woman changes this shared loss of fathers into a different dynamic, though in Fremen culture, Kynes could not have been a woman and leader of all Fremen on Arrakis - women were the spiritual leaders - an idea that is anathema to the current ideological climate.) This began their connection (besides Paul's visions of Chani, though, I doubt they were so numerous as the movie would have us believe.) The death of a family member to a shared enemy also started his integration into the Fremen culture, as they no longer saw him as an off-worlder at that point; he shared their struggle. This also made him an acceptable partner for Chani (especially since her father was also originally an off-worlder who became leader of the Fremen...) She also admired his ability to fight (as seen immediately after defeating Jamis). She officiated over the funeral of Jamis and the "trial" or "ceremony" of Paul riding his first worm. She is a skilled warrior who killed many who attempted to challenge Paul, demoralizing them so less would try to take on Paul; if they couldn't even defeat his woman (who he apparently trained in the Weirding Way), she knew Paul didn't have time for all those interruptions. It was her choice, her agency, to decide to fight those challengers, AGAINST Paul's will. Quote: “Chani, what is this?” he asked. “I dispatched one who came to challenge you in single combat, Usul.” “You killed him?” “Yes. But perhaps I should’ve left him for Harah.” (And Paul recalled how the faces of the people around them had showed appreciation for these words. Even Harah had laughed.) “But he came to challenge me!” “You trained me yourself in the weirding way, Usul.” “Certainly! But you shouldn’t-” “I was born in the desert, Usul. I know how to use a crysknife.” He suppressed his anger, tried to talk reasonably. “This may all be true, Chani, but-” “I am no longer a child hunting scorpions in the sietch by the light of a handglobe, Usul. I do not play games.” Paul glared at her, caught by the odd ferocity beneath her casual attitude. “He was not worthy, Usul,” Chani said. “I’d not disturb your meditations with the likes of him.” She moved closer, looking at him out of the corners of her eyes, dropping her voice so that only he might hear. “And, beloved, when it’s learned that a challenger may face me and be brought to shameful death by Muad’Dib’s woman, there’ll be fewer challengers.” She held to the Fremen ways, which were pragmatic necessities for surviving the harsh desert environment. This included men having multiple women as either concubines, slaves, or wives. At the end of the book, when Paul was giving his mother AND Chani the terms they were to negotiate, Chani was not upset by Paul's marriage to Irulan - she simply stated Fremen tradition, that he could have just had her sent away, if he wished it, since they were not married and their child had just been killed. She begged to not be given a title or anything, though I'm not certain of what Fremen thing that might have related to. However, she was not clear on the traditions of the great houses and the forms and such that Paul was alluding to in his marriage of necessity with Irulan; she didn't quite understand how Irulan would just be a political wife in name only. He and his mother had to explain to her that peculiarity that was different from the Fremen ways, and the Atreides family in particular, given Jessica's concubine-but-really-a-wife relationship with Leto. These things were not the way with the Fremen. I don't get how little people think of Chani, as if she had no agency, or character in the books... and that's not even getting into Dune Messiah. The changes to Chani were unnecessary to give Chani more "agency" ; agency was ripped from Chani when they turned her into the thing in the movie that only shared her name. They changed the core of her character, being a spiritual leader of her people, into being the exact opposite. The point I brought up of Chani being a priestess was not to say that would make her fawn over him and fall in love with him. It was to show how much different the movie version was from the book version of her... even going so far as to essentially say about Stilgar: "Those stupid southern country bumpkins believe in religion. Hur-dee-hur, aren't they so stupid?" perhaps with an exaggerated fake overbite for comedic effect. They failed to show the reasons Paul and Chani were so close and fell in love with each other, how only she could really be that intimate with him, having seen his visions, his future, his actions, and still accepted, supported, and loved him for who he was. In the movie, they're barely friends. She was the wrong character to change, even if they wanted to change how the story portrayed Paul, actually turning him into something of a villain. They did a pitiful job of showing the inner turmoil about how he wanted to do everything in his power to stop the violence in his visions, that would all be attributed to him, whether he liked it not... whether he lived or died. So, beyond being a bad change to Chani, it was unnecessary to make any of those changes because they shouldn't have changed Paul either!
*Predictions* A.K.A. SPOILERS!! 😅😂😂😂 Will revisit these videos when I've read the books and seen the complete trilogy. 😊 Part II was unbelievable. 🥵🥵😲😲
Bro for a 15 year old chalamet looked bigger ..im teaching children 15 16 17 even they re small much smaller by in large and theres no way they can fight grownups ..so it is the bone to pick with herbert not the film
There will be no twins. Yes Chani is going to be girl boss taking it to the white man, Paul and she will lead the Freemen. Irulan is going to become the Emperor. Alia is going to straighten out the now evil sisterhood. Paul is going to kill Jessica before walking into the desert to die. Alia may be killing Reverend Mother Mohiam. No golem/clone Duncan Idaho. No Mentants, Spacing Guild, Face Dancers. It will be what modern audiences are able to see without crying. For a Feudal system of government it will be very Woke so as to not let anyone feel unsafe.
I spent 12 years as a soldier (Infantry & Cav Scout). The guys who looked like football players were not the ones who succeeded in most cases - it was the little wiry guys who could go the distance. My platoon sergeant at one point - former 101st Airborne fought in Vietnam and survived the battle of Hill 937 in the A Shau Valley - "Hamburger Hill" - was a short skinny dude that you wouldn't think could take you on at first glance. Don't judge a book by its cover - while there are people who are stereotypical, most people are not from my own experience. This makes life, and characters in our stories, much more interesting imho.
Very true!
Exactly. I am a former Marine and I was once by a platoon of Navy Seals mustering for formation and almost all of them looked like stereotypical nerds. Skinny, short, and most were wearing glasses. As a short, skinny, glasses wearing nerd I felt vindicated, especially when the big buffed Marine I dropped off at the base for Seal trials got sent back to my platoon in under a week. Most Marines could not hang with me at the pull-up bar, running, humping packs, or in the classroom. So, yea, do not underestimate somebody because of their size. In the book Paul is described as being short for his age and slight of build, which I think fits Chalamet just fine.
@@edwinalvarez3783 well if you're skinny it will be easier to do endurance calisthenic based workouts because you weigh less. But that is not the point that I think her brother is making because he highlighted skinny athletic people like Michael Jordan and Bruce Lee, I think what he saying is that Timothy does not even appear like someone who runs does pull ups or anything and I agree. As a teenager I mostly did calisthenics to train and I was ripped but I still appeared skinny until I took off my shirt as are many athletes like soccer players, basketball player, mma fighters ect.
As someone who fences, Paul actually had his feet properly set and positioned at en garde; Feyd Rautha did not. Maybe a little less time hitting the weights and more time working on the basics would have helped.
oh interesting to hear that!
Paul had training from Duncan Idaho a sword master and Lady Jessica in the weird way. Fayd was only fighting drug up prisoners.
@markvictor8776 agreed. If Feyd had Paul's training and Paul experience in the desert. He could have easily defeated Paul.
@markvictor8776 I found his mentat training allowed him to store and process his vast amounts of memories and visions.
The first line describing Paul in the book is "isn't he small for his age?"
So idk why he says Chalamet wasnt a good fit physically.
Aww you and your brother look SO much alike I instantly knew you were siblings 😂❤ awesome review & discussion!
Glad you enjoyed our discussion 😊
hey, i thoroughly enjoyed this review and was super informative, this was an exceptional video!!
Glad you liked it 😁
You are wrong about Chalamet casting. In the book, he is described as small for his age, and a teenager. Paul wins because of his intellect and training,. Also, consider Lawrence of Arabia, both in history and in the movie. A scrawny, effeminate, nerdish book worm, convinces the Bedouin that he is a "Mahdi" with his charisma. The charisma is his genuine love and recognition of their culture. Same with Paul,.
So true!
That was before the time jump, in the books. It was said that Atreides men were typically late bloomers. Since there was no real time jump in the films, he should've been more muscular from the start.
@@plo617 why? He's not described as muscular at any point? If I recall, he's claimed to be stringy and fat/water free after living with the fremen.
@@Kyljys-pt4up He is only described as small for his age at the beginning and is said (by Jessica herself) that Atreides males are late bloomers. So it is implied that he would get more muscular. Especially living amongst the Fremen, which is a rigorous life. The sandwalking alone would naturally make him more muscular. Combine that with an assumed growth spurt and it's not a stretch to belive he would be more muscular at the end of the book. Not some Hulking bodybuilder, of course, but certainly more muscular than he in Dune part 2.
@@plo617 Hmm, I went looking for a description of him from the fight with Feyd, because it was done without stillsuit: "The Emperor was studying Feyd-Rautha, seeing the heavy shoulders, the thick muscles. He turned to look at Paul-a stringy whipcord of a youth, not as desiccated as the Arrakeen natives, but with ribs there to count, and sunken in the flanks so that the ripple and gather of muscles could be followed under the skin." doesn't sound very muscular. That dessicated look might be impossible for an actor to get, though.
Your brother should start his own podcast. He is really good, I like his opinions.
Glad you liked hearing his thoughts! I'll pass on the compliment ☺
I personally disagree about Tim being the wrong choice, I think he was a solid choice
Yeah I love him in the role!
Isn’t Paul supposed to be 16 years old though? I don’t think he needs to be completely shredded?
Yeah that's the counterpoint that I make in the video
Hello! New to your channel. Love your review of dune. I disagree a lot with your bro and found his commentary to be lackluster. but that’s okay especially since he’s just a guest appearance. Hope to see more of your commentary in the future 🎉
At 30:25 it looked like your head almost fell off when you heard him say the next one might take ten years !!
🤣 I definitely think and hope it'll be sooner than ten years!
This is off topic and unrelated to the video, but I’m new to your channel. I love watching videos of people talking about the movie adaptions of books.
I don’t know if these suggestions are in your arsenals for consideration but I would love to hear your thoughts on Devil in a Blue Dress by Walter Mosley and A Rage in Harlem by Chester Himes. Both black books turned into movies.
I have been meaning to cover Devil in a Blue Dress for a while but keep putting out off! I'll plan on doing it soon in the coming months
Interesting discussion, I think there’s going to be time jump in the next movie, probably will get the twins in movie , I think in recent interviews there some interest in a children’s of Dune movie
ooo I would love them to do Children of Dune!
Dune messiah is also my favorite!
First time I've seen Joe. Howdy!
Yeah it had been a while since we recorded All Quiet On The Western Front!
I just finished reading the whole first book trilogy. They are definitely better than the movie adaptations. So I say… read the books. But with my vague interest in this franchise I’ve decided to stop reading it after reading the third book completing the whole first trilogy.
I would definitely recommend the fourth as well, I have since read it and I loved it!
ZEN-DAY-UH, not ZEN-DIE-UH.
I'm late to the party on this video, but I guess news about the new Messiah movie made it relevant to my suggested watching list... anyway I'm here now.
To begin, Frank Herbert had a TRILOGY planned from the start. The stories of Messiah being written to correct the views of readers who got it wrong... are wrong... or paint an incomplete picture of the scenario.
Now... my problem with DV's Adaptation starts starts with the problem with Paul, and subsequently, Chani was changed to emphasize the WRONG message about Paul. This was all stemming from a misunderstanding of his character and the themes of Dune, that I often see repeated in these youtube videos. Yes, he was a charismatic leader. Yes, Frank Herbert's message was to beware blindly following charismatic leaders. The REASON for this, was that people who blindly follow others turn off their brains and don't think for themselves. It's not because Paul was a tyrant, or a bad leader.
Paul had faults. Paul made bad decisions. Frank Herbert also wanted to emphasize that any leader's mistakes had much greater impacts, the more people they effect. Paul essentially had control of the entire Imperium, so any mistakes were magnified a billion fold. Again, not because he was a BAD person, or a bad leader.
Multiple times throughout the books, we are warned against the main theme: Think for yourself and beware of Blind Spots.
In the Butlerian Jihad, the people had turned their thinking over to machines.
“Once men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.”
“ ‘Thou shalt not make a machine in the likeness of a man’s mind,’ ” Paul quoted.
“Right out of the Butlerian Jihad and the Orange Catholic Bible,” she said.
“But what the O.C. Bible should’ve said is: ‘Thou shalt not make a machine to counterfeit a human mind.’ Have you studied the Mentat in your service?”
“I’ve studied with Thufir Hawat.”
“The Great Revolt took away a crutch,” she said. “It forced human minds to develop. Schools were started to train human talents.”
This warning was against letting machines think for us.
Again, the main theme is: Don't turn your decision making processes over to anyone, or any thing else; this includes charismatic leaders, thinking machines, religions, governments, the crowd of other people, etc.
Paul Atreides was set up as the ULTIMATE Blind Spot - the best case scenario to be a leader of humanity.
* He and his family were known as benevolent people who wanted the best for their subjects.
* He was trained as a Mentat, allowing him to process all the information he gathered and produce the most logical conclusions possible.
* He was trained as a Bene Gesserit, allowing him extreme control of his body with their Prana Bindu exercises leading to the fighting style of the Weirding Way, and techniques such as the Voice, granting him the ability to force compliance with his commands. Bene Gesserit perception was also a boon, allowing him to detect discreet motions and changes in people and the environment that gave him insights into a great many things, enhanced by his Mentat training to actually make use of all that data.
* Paul also had the prescient foresight of the Guild Navigators, allowing him to actually see the future, and the consequences of his choices.
* AND Paul (eventually) had access to the genetic memory of all humanity in his genetic history, like the reverend mothers, but included the male side as well.
He was, indeed, much more than the Kwisatz Haderach.
To top it all off, this leader was handed a devoted nation of warriors to lead, through their own religion, and some meddling of the Bene Gesserit's Missionaria Protectiva (instilling in the Fremen their prophesies about the chosen one and his mother.)
And here's the kicker: even a leader with ALL of those characteristics was powerless to lead the people down a good path, because of the bureaucrat filled government that grew up around him, and the religious zealotry of the Fremen that made him into a figurehead... he was powerless, despite being the most powerful ruler humanity had ever known up to that point. Despite his best efforts to blunt the jihad, it would have proceeded against his will, even if he had died before taking the throne. All he could do, was direct it to cause the least death possible, while staying on the Golden Path.
It is ultimately foolish to put your blind trust in a human, no matter their best intentions and abilities.
Before I end this first point, EVEN PRESCIENCE was warned against as a blind spot. You can't even put your trust in that, in a world where such a thing exists... the pitfall of that Blind Spot is probably the biggest one in the series. (Frank Herbert did believe in "oracular sight" such as claimed to be had by the ancient oracles as something that existed, and he and/or his wife practiced reading Tarot cards.)
(Main post Continued in reply: The problem with Chani.)
SPOILERS beyond, for the whole series written by Frank Herbert (examples of blind spots)
As to other Blind Spots, Prescience was the biggest blind spot. Another way to look at it is: *Blind Spots make you stop thinking about that thing.* Assumptions are blind spots.
* Jessica was a blind spot to the Bene Gesserit, since they assumed she was under their authority down to the letter, yet she acted against them for her love for her Duke.
* Dr. Yueh was the Atreides blind spot, because everyone knows a Suk doctor can be trusted with the life of the Emperor, without fearing for their safety.
* Duke Leto was a blind spot to the Baron, so the tooth trick nearly worked.
* Feyd Rautha's White and Black daggers illustrated another blind spot, since "everyone" knew that he kept one poisoned, and the other not... but he switched which one he poisoned.
* The God Emperor was breeding into the human race a genetic trait to make them invisible to prescient sight to protect them from a future danger.
* They eventually created No-ships, that were capable of protecting anything done within them from prescient sight.
The Problem with Chani
The Chani of the books:
Chani was not an invisible character in the books. She had "agency" and a life of her own. She thought for herself, certainly not doing everything Paul told her to do, which caused them to have disagreements.
In the book, Chani wasn't just a mindless follower.
She is a priestess. She believes in the prophesies of the Fremen messiah, no matter if that was twisted by the Bene Gesserit Missionaria Protectiva. As Stilgar said, "“Among us,” he said, “the Sayyadina, when they are not the formal leaders, hold a special place of honor. They teach. They maintain the strength of God here.” (his hand to his heart.)
Naturally, as someone so strong in their beliefs, she would be an ardent follower of one they identified as the messiah. This was even deeper for her, as they shared love, and had a child together. During the spice "event" after the changing of the waters, she saw their future together as all the Fremen have a prescient event together at that time. What they shared in that moment cemented their relationship as if a marriage ceremony. She had a glimpse of their future, which seems to have included the Fremen interstellar wars to come, whether or not she remembered much of what she saw after the event, as the Fremen seemed to reject the thought that they were seeing the real future, as it terrified them to think that.
During that prescient sharing, the two of them practically lived their future lives together in a single night.
Quote from the end of that chapter: "The drug had him again and he thought: So many times you’ve given me comfort and forgetfulness. He felt anew the hyperillumination with its high-relief imagery of time, sensed his future becoming memories-the tender indignities of physical love, the sharing and communion of selves, the softness and the violence.
“You’re the strong one, Chani,” he muttered. “Stay with me.”
“Always,” she said, and kissed his cheek."
She knew the future he saw, and the terrible burden it was placing on him, and she would have seen that he would do all in his power to avoid the worst of it. This all drew her to him. She was intimately close to him after that. The only people to come close to having that much understanding of Paul, were SPOILERS his twin children who shared in his memory and prescient ability.
Their relationship started early on, at least for Paul. Then, both Paul and Chani's fathers were killed in the Harkonnen attack, so they bonded over the shared loss (changing Kynes to a woman changes this shared loss of fathers into a different dynamic, though in Fremen culture, Kynes could not have been a woman and leader of all Fremen on Arrakis - women were the spiritual leaders - an idea that is anathema to the current ideological climate.) This began their connection (besides Paul's visions of Chani, though, I doubt they were so numerous as the movie would have us believe.)
The death of a family member to a shared enemy also started his integration into the Fremen culture, as they no longer saw him as an off-worlder at that point; he shared their struggle. This also made him an acceptable partner for Chani (especially since her father was also originally an off-worlder who became leader of the Fremen...)
She also admired his ability to fight (as seen immediately after defeating Jamis). She officiated over the funeral of Jamis and the "trial" or "ceremony" of Paul riding his first worm. She is a skilled warrior who killed many who attempted to challenge Paul, demoralizing them so less would try to take on Paul; if they couldn't even defeat his woman (who he apparently trained in the Weirding Way), she knew Paul didn't have time for all those interruptions.
It was her choice, her agency, to decide to fight those challengers, AGAINST Paul's will.
Quote:
“Chani, what is this?” he asked.
“I dispatched one who came to challenge you in single combat, Usul.”
“You killed him?”
“Yes. But perhaps I should’ve left him for Harah.”
(And Paul recalled how the faces of the people around them had showed appreciation for these words. Even Harah had laughed.)
“But he came to challenge me!”
“You trained me yourself in the weirding way, Usul.”
“Certainly! But you shouldn’t-”
“I was born in the desert, Usul. I know how to use a crysknife.”
He suppressed his anger, tried to talk reasonably. “This may all be true, Chani, but-”
“I am no longer a child hunting scorpions in the sietch by the light of a handglobe, Usul. I do not play games.”
Paul glared at her, caught by the odd ferocity beneath her casual attitude.
“He was not worthy, Usul,” Chani said. “I’d not disturb your meditations with the likes of him.” She moved closer, looking at him out of the corners of her eyes, dropping her voice so that only he might hear. “And, beloved, when it’s learned that a challenger may face me and be brought to shameful death by Muad’Dib’s woman, there’ll be fewer challengers.”
She held to the Fremen ways, which were pragmatic necessities for surviving the harsh desert environment. This included men having multiple women as either concubines, slaves, or wives. At the end of the book, when Paul was giving his mother AND Chani the terms they were to negotiate, Chani was not upset by Paul's marriage to Irulan - she simply stated Fremen tradition, that he could have just had her sent away, if he wished it, since they were not married and their child had just been killed. She begged to not be given a title or anything, though I'm not certain of what Fremen thing that might have related to. However, she was not clear on the traditions of the great houses and the forms and such that Paul was alluding to in his marriage of necessity with Irulan; she didn't quite understand how Irulan would just be a political wife in name only. He and his mother had to explain to her that peculiarity that was different from the Fremen ways, and the Atreides family in particular, given Jessica's concubine-but-really-a-wife relationship with Leto. These things were not the way with the Fremen.
I don't get how little people think of Chani, as if she had no agency, or character in the books... and that's not even getting into Dune Messiah.
The changes to Chani were unnecessary to give Chani more "agency" ; agency was ripped from Chani when they turned her into the thing in the movie that only shared her name.
They changed the core of her character, being a spiritual leader of her people, into being the exact opposite. The point I brought up of Chani being a priestess was not to say that would make her fawn over him and fall in love with him. It was to show how much different the movie version was from the book version of her... even going so far as to essentially say about Stilgar: "Those stupid southern country bumpkins believe in religion. Hur-dee-hur, aren't they so stupid?" perhaps with an exaggerated fake overbite for comedic effect.
They failed to show the reasons Paul and Chani were so close and fell in love with each other, how only she could really be that intimate with him, having seen his visions, his future, his actions, and still accepted, supported, and loved him for who he was. In the movie, they're barely friends.
She was the wrong character to change, even if they wanted to change how the story portrayed Paul, actually turning him into something of a villain. They did a pitiful job of showing the inner turmoil about how he wanted to do everything in his power to stop the violence in his visions, that would all be attributed to him, whether he liked it not... whether he lived or died. So, beyond being a bad change to Chani, it was unnecessary to make any of those changes because they shouldn't have changed Paul either!
Wow thanks for sharing your thoughts! And yeah, I can understand why book readers don't like the change to Chani in particular but I didn't mind.
*Predictions* A.K.A. SPOILERS!! 😅😂😂😂
Will revisit these videos when I've read the books and seen the complete trilogy. 😊
Part II was unbelievable. 🥵🥵😲😲
I'll be curious to see what you think of the books!
I would also suggest God Emperor of Dune. The four books are a fairly compele telling of the story. But the story does get trippy and weird.
@Dularr I'll definitely be reading that. Just didn't have time to get to it before filming this!
The best scifi book i have read is I am Legend. It is technically more a horror book.... so Dune is like asymptotically close second?😂
I love I Am Legend! One of the best endings ever.
Bro for a 15 year old chalamet looked bigger ..im teaching children 15 16 17 even they re small much smaller by in large and theres no way they can fight grownups ..so it is the bone to pick with herbert not the film
There will be no twins. Yes Chani is going to be girl boss taking it to the white man, Paul and she will lead the Freemen. Irulan is going to become the Emperor. Alia is going to straighten out the now evil sisterhood. Paul is going to kill Jessica before walking into the desert to die. Alia may be killing Reverend Mother Mohiam. No golem/clone Duncan Idaho. No Mentants, Spacing Guild, Face Dancers. It will be what modern audiences are able to see without crying. For a Feudal system of government it will be very Woke so as to not let anyone feel unsafe.
_WOW,_ that *_B00KSHELF_* deserves & Wide shot Pic on your Community Page, Impressive ;-)
This background is actually a tapestry I got on Amazon!
@@WhytheBookWins ahh that's why they have labels like a library 😂