This video is so good! I can't believe you even touched on the Protestant discrimination in the south and the percentages of each northern county from the period of the Irish independence election! Because these are things people rarely talk about it. I might've had to steal one of those map images 😂😂😂because I've often heard the claim that if during the 1918 election you broke the majority in each county down in the north you'd really only have 2 and a half counties with a significant protestant majority above 51-60% and now I can finally study this claim so thank you very much! One idea which I think may be a bit silly is that if we have a united Ireland the entire island should be devolved. Now growing up in a nationalist background I was often told that a united Ireland would have to be completely different than it is now. So a new constitution, flag, anthem, laws, budget, rights etc. But there will always be a percentage of people who would not accept a united Ireland and especially won't accept Dublin rule. This solution I believe to this is to keep the north of Ireland in a devolved state but add onto it so that it doesn't just be NI but the entire province of Ulster and then give each province Munster, Leinster, and Connaught devolution too. Thus giving more power to local communities and governments and away from Dublin and meaning we won't have to dissolve the institutions in Stormont. I think of this in a similar way to America were they have states rights. So we could perhaps depend on Dublin essentially just for massive issues such as the army, international agreements and trade, and keeping up core laws and values but that every province has more power to govern and protect their own citizens. Because the different provinces and the different counties in each province have different needs and in my opinion it would be a lot easier for local people and local authorities to have more power to deal with their own issues rather than to just dump everything onto Dublin because then nothing gets done and nothing will ever get done. This seems complicated I know but it seems to be a bit more doable than just oh yea btw you're ruled from Dublin now. And I don't think anymore borders are the solution. I think that if the opportunity in the 1920s to draw the border was given and it was say "drawn wrong" then how can we trust this time it'll be drawn right especially if demographic changes continue to occur. And that separating people based on differences into two separate sections or states doesn't work. Look at India and Pakistan, Israel and Palestine, South Africa, the former Czechoslovakia, Rwanda. Every time imperialist nations have said oh it's a colour problem, or a religious problem, or an ethnic problem you go here and you go here and it'll be fine and every single time it has just caused more bloodshed and ultimately lead to the collapse of these imperial states. What we need in my opinion is radical political, social, and cultural reforms that Westminster and the Dáil are obligated to do so as the supreme parliaments that govern so that people on either side can be as contempt, happy, respected, and comfortable wherever they live.
The problem with your devolved united ireland idea - is that the unionists won’t break away from Britain. They’re British. Any future arrangements will have to involve remaining attached to Britain in some way, joint nationality etc.
@@raymondhaskin9449 Yea! That's actually something I've wondered that I've never heard much about! Because we can identify here as British, Irish, Northern Irish or some mixture I believe. So in a UI will this remain and also does it just apply for people within the 6 counties or will it apply for the entire island? And will Northern Ireland have its ability to secede out of a united Ireland if people want that? These are issues that I've not heard much about but I'm interested in how it would work?
Thanks for the comment dude, in future try to break your comments into paragraphs so its easier for me to respond to each point haha. 1) Thanks for that, the images are all from Google so search about and you can find them (most of its on Wikipedia, so search about using the sources I referenced in the video). 2) On a devolved RoI, that was the stance I took for the first Irish video, however after speaking to Unionists and getting their take, I realized that the feelings are far too strong to ever submit to Dublin rule, no matter how devolved or protected they'd be. As an English patriot, ideally I'd prefer an independent Northern Ireland with the borders changed as aforementioned. 3) Giving devolved status for the whole of Ulster would disadvantage the Unionists, who would clearly be in a minority, and so even if a devolved status would be granted, it would have to be for districts that have Unionist majorities, leaving the rest of Ulster as a normal part of RoI. 4) I'm a massive fan of Localism, all matters except for Defence, Foreign Policy and a handful of infrastructure projects like motorways should always be in the hands of local people (I want England to become a federal country with each county having the same powers as a Swiss canton, so even more so than for US states; stay tuned for my aforementioned future video on the US Constitution where I'll go into more detail on that). 5) The border will be drawn better this time precisely because its not bureaucrats and politicians in far distant capitals drawing the border without consent or approval from the locals. This would be decided by the locals and therefore the border would be a much more accurate and useful line than is currently the case. In all of the aforementioned cases you mention, the line was drawn by outsiders and was imposed on locals without consultation. And in this case, with 3-5 years to work it out there would likely be far less violence than we saw in India/Pakistan or Israel/Palestine etc, as folks would be able to negotiate the terms after extensive and deliberative debate and discussion and compromise. 6) Your final point is echoed in my point Number 4, the whole Western world needs radical constitutional reform from first principles, just as America had at her Founding, where the greatest minds and all minds come together to have a metaphorical Year Zero (as in, if we were starting society from scratch, how would we go about constructing it, and then go about slowly and carefully reforming it - I'm fully opposed to Revolutions, so in no way am I suggesting we ought to scrap the entire system now and start again, it must be thought-out first and slowly implemented over time). 7) This is a model for how I want the rest of this comment section to be and I only wish that more people would address this video's content in the same way that you have. We have disagreed but it has been well thought-out and expressed in civil, intelligent terms. God bless you!
@Raymond I have to disagree, only in that in my ideal England would become independent from the rest of the UK and each nation would go their own way, and in that regard the debate would be "Should we join with the Republic of Ireland, or should Northern Ireland be an independent state?" I don't know how Unionists would vote in such a vote, and I'd love to see polling on it! I imagine that most would vote for independence, but the more moderates (especially in County Fermanagh and Tyrone) would vote to join the RoI.
My compliments on your research. I speak as an Irish nationalist. My own view is that in very recent time there has been a major shift in the Northern Irish question analysis. I refer to Brexit. There is a very visceral shift to economic issues and this brings in to the debate the third component which was not fully addressed in the Good Friday Agreement and that is the position of Alliance party. They don't have full parity with the others in the de Honte process. In my opinion this cadre will probably decide the nationality outcome you talk about.
I agree, the Alliance party are made up of progressives, left leaning, LGBT etc. I know many who vote Alliance purely because Unionist parties are aligned with religious beliefs. However, that's changed. Alliance, if you have noticed, are showing their cards and for that reason EVERY SINGLE ALLIANCE VOTER (I'm serious too) I know personally, and their friends, guys and girls I've know for 20+ years or more and switching to UUP. Sinn Fein will not bring about a united Ireland. Remove Sinn Fein and nationalist might have a chance. I suppose, we'll see come May.
Very true, as in all campaigns, its the moderates who decide it. Energize the Base, Appeal to Moderates and Demonize the Opposition; thats how to win at election time!
Great video, and I get your point that of course Protestants where discriminated against in the early days of the Free State, de Valera was also a pr!ck of epic proportions however, if reunification happened nowadays, the Ireland that the 6 countries would be becoming a part of is way more multicultural, diverse, and equal than the Ireland that was partitioned. I firmly believe religion wouldn’t be a big issue in this case.
It's not religion, religion is used to define demographics, most people don't care. My boxing gym (decades a member) is mixed. It is identity. 100% down to identity and nationality. And of course there would be discrimination, we're feeling that discrimination right now and we (unionists) are living-supposedly-on British soil. You have to be naive to think there wouldn't be discrimination. How would you feel if the Irish flag was changed or suddenly removed from various official buildings? The abolishment of the celebration of the IRA, no more easter lily, and more changes to "appease" the unionist population of Northern Ireland, if there was a chance of unification? Doesn't sound good, right? Well that's exactly what is happening to Unionists in their own country. Sinn Fein have pulled the wool over the eyes of their voter base the Southern Irish have no idea what it's like up here in Northern Ireland, really, they don't. And a good % of Alliance voters are actually progressive Unionists and Northern Ireland will see this come next elections because Alliance have paired with SFIRA and the many LGBT/progressive Alliance voters I know will vote UUP because they are actually unionists just not Loyalists. If Sinn Fein pull a majority seating, you must also realise, it is not because they gained, it is because they are a one party trick and unionists are so split over the debacle that is DUP, they gain because the unionist vote is split. As much as there is a lot of media attention given to the Republican cries for unification, its not as popular as its made out to be. But watch how Alliance is about to be destroyed, along with DUP. interesting times ahead and economically, joing the Republic would be a disaster. Its a romantic idea, nothing more.
@@frosty_soda I’m not from NI so I can’t fully say, but the part of Ireland that I am from, has no issue with unionists or identity. We have orange lodges down here too. And I don’t personally celebrate IRA atrocities post-1922 nor does anyone else here. My comment was in relation to the supposed discrimination on the island if reunification was to occur tomorrow. Nope, I personally don’t feel both sides are ready for that. The communities of NI need to live together in inclusivity before there can even be talk about a border poll. It’s not as romantic as you might say, I do believe it will happen in time, however I think we are a good 25 years plus before any criteria for a poll is met. You also talk about us losing our identity to appease unionists and how we wouldn’t stand for it, however government policy down here regarding possible unification states that the current Republic that I call home would cease to exist. Our flag, anthem, political titles (Taoiseach etc) would be fine and the island would be a new Ireland. A shared Ireland and an inclusive Ireland and myself and many others feels that is the right move in order to sustain peace in such an event. I think the status quo is safe, for the foreseeable though, it’s not an immediate thing, in fact I think Scotland will leave the union before NI does, but I think it’s something that will happen 2-3 decades down the line, but the bitterness and division up there, on both sides needs to end before we even discuss that.
@@darrencorr5903 I find your reply perfectly reflects the 2 years I spent living in Kilcock, Maynooth. Know the places? You are an Irishman that I got on well with. Don't get me wrong, it's a completely different ball game down there, in Mexico (South of the border) 😆 . Up here, there are plenty up the middle type of folks, but make no bones about it, there is fierce tribalism. I've always said Southerner really don't fully appreciate the way things are here. Honestly mate, I'm a unionist who fought out of an extremely nationalist gym, some (or most) are Sinn Fein voters, 25+ years of it, back when the bombs were still going. I was lucky to experience love from all sides but these days is different, there's a very worrying trend. I agree, not now. If it happened now with the likes of Sinn Fein in power it will be the troubles 2.0.
Yes, religion wouldn't be as much of an issue, but nationality would be, and that's not going anywhere for Nationalists/Unionists alike, hence why unification is impossible.
Thanks I'm so thankful for the feedback, this was such a divisive topic I'm just bracing for the deluge of hate. Literally any words of kindness are a blessing to me haha!
Great video :). I'm from NI and would consider myself Irish (albeit Atheist as opposed to Catholic), but I'm totally sick of the political divide here and thinking of moving to London soon anyway. Things are ok now, but honestly, as demographics continue in the direction of Irish nationalism, I'm worried what sort of violence a united Ireland could bring, because I respect that many unionist/loyalist communities are totally antagonistic to the idea and Sinn Fein haven't exactly extended their vote across the community to win them over (the progressive policies can win over young people but not unionism). In saying that, I think long-term this place would be economically better off by joining the republic but I'd give it at least 100 years for things to calm down between communities first! Step one is integrated education...
Unionist violence has always been done to try to lever the UK forces in to enforce partition and the NI Union with U.K. A proportion of it has direct covert involvement of M16 or the Paras etc. If the UK genuinely withdrew and didn't interfere could we not sort all this out? Hundreds of thousands on non Catholic people already live peacefully in the Republic of Ireland.
I don't see how those who vote DUP and celebrate 12th July with bonfires of Irish tricolours are somehow going to one day accept becoming Irish. Not now, not in 100 years!
Its not about Religion, its about National Identity. That's what I focused on with this video, its the right of the people of Ulster on both sides of the divide to have Self-Determination.
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp The question is, in 100 years time, how much of the population of Northern Ireland will comprise of flag-burning, DUP-supporting loyalists? Could easily fall to a level where a united Ireland is a possibility. Will be interesting to see what the 2021 census results are in terms of continuing demographic shift. I think the DUP urgently needs to shift its policies towards younger voters soon though because it won't be good for them in the long run.
Yes for sure, the Unionist parties need to liberalize their stance on issues. However, even in 100 year's time, folks will want to be governed by their own customs and culture, not by a foreign one, so it just won't happen. One oughtn't to base one's hopes on folks changing the habits of 400 years within the next 100 years.
Another thought-provoking video. I don't feel like you have a bias, you've said things that would kind of piss off both communities here. Your videos are uniquely well researched, strange to hear an Englishman sound like he actually knows a bit about the North. Respect
Yep, that was the plan, piss off both communities equally enough for neither to (reasonably) say that I'm for one side or the other, whilst also making the case that would either please or annoy each side equally. Judging from the comments though, it seems to be the Nationalists who have the hardest time accepting that their dream of a United Ireland are fantasies, and in-spite me laying out the case slowly and methodically for 37 minutes, they still can't let their dream go, even if 1 million Unionists stand in their way.
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp aye, it's a particularly wounded community sometimes. True believers. Certain rebellious bitterness entrenched in West Belfast which would be the Nationalist cultural hub, you see it in the murals, even. National liberation, revenge and martyrdom. I'm a Unionist, brought up Protestant. In a village that used to be Unionist, but has become increasingly Nationalist. Most of my mates growing up were Catholic, and I have such a fondness for the people in West Belfast and Irish culture. Just have to steer clear of the most sensitive issues and have adopted like a Protestant apologetic approach. The few Catholics in the agricultural village half my family is from when my father was growing up in the 50s/60s were on good terms with the majority Protestants. More segregated even now than it was then. There are always Catholics who have a deep distrust and spite of me, and the whole Unionist community... And the state. Lawlessness and anti-peeler/state mindset is the culture of West Belfast, and it is good craic unfortunately. My experience with working class urban protestants who make up the other half of my family is different. A sort of culture of respect there. I feel that the state and institutions have started to wipe their arse with Unionists. Less academically/politically oriented than working class Catholics. The fucking Kinahans have moved into the West and slashy Dublin crime is in my small town. I went through the state school system resenting my own Unionist community, always represented on the radio/TV as bigoted ignorant dunces and took that attitude all the way through university. Hard to try to match up experience with history, myth and present reality...
@@casteretpollux Katharine the more you talk, the worse you look. True for almost everyone but it's particularly acute in you. Are you a British army cyber-spy? Trying to make Nationalists look like fools?
It's a pity more English people didn't take as much interest as you, to your credit. The Unionist. Position is much like that of Afrikaaners who saw no problem with apartheid because it suited them fully. So they resisted change totally. The Troubles didn't start in 1969 they started in the 12th century. Even the Unionists know we are in the end game.
It's nothing like apartheid. Ireland was united once, under British rule. The Gaels invaded and pushed the aboriginal inhabitants out to Scotland, they simply returned around 1609. Read some T.F O’Rahilly or Thomas O'Connor.
True to an extent based on the gerrymandering, but Apartheid was nowhere near gerrymandering, so I wouldn't even begin to compare this to Apartheid, it undermines the true horrors of that evil system.
@@johnfoley9031 there was only one evil system and it was in South Africa during apartheid. The fact you ate calling up atrocities from 100s of years ago shows us all exactly why a lot of people need to move on....erm...I mean...forget the events of 100s of years ago. But hey you do realise I can do the same? Bloody Sunday wasn't even the worst atrocity but it gains the most attention the worst were the omagh bombings, the Shankill bombings the ethnic cleansing of border towns, one friends family had his farm taken. You need to quit drinking the republican cool aid. It's a known fact that the IRA murdered more Catholics than all loyalist paramilitaries combined and the British forces did their job. Human error aside, the IRA deliberately targeted the weak and unnarmed. Let that sink in.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with most of this. This is purely a regurgitation of 'hardline unionist/loyalist' thought and panders to the old colonial attitudes... Partition has failed 'all' the people in every way, socially and economically. Re-partitioning or creating a smaller Protestant/unionist statelet would only condense the problem into an ever shrinking area. The only long term solution is an inclusive 'United' Ireland, one that has been negotiated and agreed upon by the majority of people and possibly prior to any border poll. Yes, possibly there would be unionist/loyalist violence...but there always has been since partition...
Well it wouldn't because the vast majority would be Unionist and most Nationalists would be in their own country. The stance of a United Ireland robs the Unionists of their own right to Self-Determination and basically tells them to be quiet and give up their dreams of being governed under the flag they want.
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp So repeating a past mistake on a smaller scale is good politics ?... we can use your argument if we look at partition from a Nationalist viewpoint considering community dreams and aspirations, were they not forced to live under a flag they did not want ?.. Why then would you elevate one communities (unionist/loyalist) aspirations over another ? going forward, a fully negotiated and agreed 'New Ireland' that has a respectful constitution for all is the only long term political solution.
With respect, this is absolutely backwards: the original partition was done without consent or consultation, this would be done by both. The past wrong was the denial of Self-Determiation to one group by saying they ought to just submit to a United Kingdom; the call now for a United Ireland is just the other side of the same inhumane coin.
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp ...not backwards at all... You are promoting a very blinkered view, focused purely on a unionist/loyalist agenda...' a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people' ?, again... Partition only produced two failed states. Thankfully, the political landscape has changed somewhat in Ireland and there is now an opportunity to repair past mistakes both north and south. A New Ireland, one that has been conceived 'by the people, for the people' , respectful of all traditions, creeds and race.... the time for saying 'no, nay, never' has long past...
Great analysis. And nice inclusion of Kipling’s 1912 poem. In the end of the day, the people in Northern Ireland are mainly British. A more accurate term for the Northern irelanders is the Ulster Scots. Descended from Lowland Scots and Border English protestant families. These people are unique from the rest of Ireland. That should always be respected.
Very true, I cover that lineage in the original video on this topic, and thanks for the compliment on my analysis and my inclusion of Kipling's poem, thought it'd get me in a lot of trouble lol
While that's predominantly true, it is trending towards a reversal currently with a recent poll suggesting some 51% of the population identifying as Nationalist, though that doesn't necessarily mean that the majority identify as Irish etc. It is just a very telling statistic in my opinion
When facts are inconvenient make up your own, it’s how President Trump won the 2020 election. The 2021 census results will be hard to drape a flag over.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 If you have nothing but snarky comments to offer, keep them to yourself or to a channel that cares to hear them, thanks. Disagreement is more than fine, but I cant stand poisoning the well of discourse by those acting in bad faith. You have offered no solutions, you have simply ignored what I explained in the video that a United Ireland cannot happen and ought not to happen, and why? Because you pick a pipe dream over real people on the ground. Its just a numbers game for you, and 1 million Unionists have just as much right to Self-Determination as 1 million Nationalists.
Loooool you know what, its Dail as in Fail, Im fed up with this language now, just leave me in peace! ;( no wonder the Unionists keep kicking off about it! (Joking ofc!)
I used to lived in NI for 10 years! definitely is a bad idea a new partition. It will delay the problems for a few years. We wouldn't like a new Jerusalem in Belfast. The demografic reality of NI will need to be respected. The are a lot of minorities in a country which live peacefully. I think NI will follow the Canada-Quebec example. But here is much easier because English is the common language. And the influx of EU foreigners favour more catholics rather than protestants. Don't forget that the younger people don't look anymore at nationalities, but at the economic advantages, and geographically and economically (after Brexit) is beside Ireland, not UK!
England, Wales and Scotland are doing great due to Brexit. Brexit has been good to the UK. No offence, but Ireland is being bled dry by the EU and they're getting hit with even more bills and as for foreigners favouring Ireland, wrong again. I've been close friends with the Polish community, I was married to a Pole. They want to remain in the UK. Not even a question about it. In fact, many now do not want anything to do with the EU. What was 2016 sentiment has definitely changed. I too was pro-EU, political positions are more dynamic these days. Don't hold your breath on that line of reasoning. Just saying. There's many like myself too.
I disagree, Quebec is a never-ending issue, as is Catalonia, Palestine etc etc. Nationality is and always will be important, and as aforementioned, if 100 years of belonging to Northern Ireland hasnt placated Irish nationalism, why would the Unionists be placated? And if nationalism doesnt matter anymore, ask how one would feel with one's country being governed by one's neighbour, and ask then whether nationalism matters. I love Ireland, but I'd be damned to be governed by them, and I expect the same in return.
@@frosty_soda Exactly, I was so tempted to have a picture of the border down the Irish Sea whilst reading the poem, but I thought it'd be too provocative. Unionists have been thrown under the bus by London, most of their trade is with England and yet England abandoned them to get a crappy deal we should never have agreed to.
@@frosty_soda oh really - thousands of EU citizens have already left the UK due to racism and insecurity. Ireland has the highest EU support in the Union. You are trolling I think.
The lesson from history is take any solution gifted from enlightened English people and throw it into the bin. *You* are saying that an outsider should *not* try to ‘solve’ N.I. but _England_ unilaterally will let local communities of a vague size determine *how we re-draw the border* to start the whole delightful process all over again. Have you looked at the Lord Ashcroft survey’s age spread? the next border would be outmoded in a single generation as the pensioners die off. Your solution will end up with a border around individual houses, so what about high rise flats?
Loool dunno if this is aimed at me, but after reading the comment section it feels like most Nationalists have taken my well-argued case and thrown it in the bin; sacrificing the lives, dreams and desires of 1 million Unionists at the altar of their dream of a United Ireland.
Oops, I expanded my offering just as you replied. You are leaving the middle ground high and dry and have fallen in behind the loudest flag waving _community activists._ Banging a drum and waving a flag doesn’t carry an extra vote so wait and see the result of next year’s election and at about the same time the 2021 census summary will be out. Drawing a new *beeping border* is learning nothing from history, you are putting the solution inside the limitations of the problem, was the April 1945 Thousand Year Reich offered the opportunity to put its house in order in its own way? From the middle field the animals in both camps look equally plastered in their own manure.
Who's saying England will unilaterally do it, the folks in NI can do it themselves. The argument about age ignores geographic spread, as the coastal east of NI has an overwhelming majority of all ages and even amongst Catholics who identify as being British. A redrawing of the border once will mean a majority for the forseeable future, as most Nationalist population growth has been focused in the cities of Derry and Belfast within the specific Nationalist neighbourhoods.
You also ignored my suggestions specifically saying it ought not to be on such a micro level and ought to be done by district, which implies to me that you only heard what you wanted to hear.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 And what is the so-called "middle ground"? Nothing was ever achieved by middle grounders, they are nothing but the timid masses who adopt a change only when it looks set to win. Nationalists have spurred the conversation to this point not by taking the middle ground, and neither was the middle ground sought when the Unionists signed the Ulster Covenant. History isnt written by the middle ground.
But I'm English, not British, and as aforementioned, I have no vested interest in NI, so explain what part of this is propaganda? And what is your proposal then if you don't like mine? If you can't lay out a decent counter-argument, don't speak on it.
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp what part of free speech do ypi object too, the part that will not lie down and role over for your British or as you emphasised English imperialist view?
@@nedhappened3085 Looool no one is questioning your freedom of speech, by all means, use it to explain what part of this video was British propaganda (especially note the parts when I show the number of civilians the British Army killed, and also the fact I explicitly stated how I, as an English patriot, want to dissolve the British Union).
William of a orange never set foot in of what is now Northern Ireland, his forces never entered Derry
Yeah true, but his forces did break the siege through smashing the booms and bringing relief. What do you think about the rest of the video?
This video is so good! I can't believe you even touched on the Protestant discrimination in the south and the percentages of each northern county from the period of the Irish independence election! Because these are things people rarely talk about it. I might've had to steal one of those map images 😂😂😂because I've often heard the claim that if during the 1918 election you broke the majority in each county down in the north you'd really only have 2 and a half counties with a significant protestant majority above 51-60% and now I can finally study this claim so thank you very much! One idea which I think may be a bit silly is that if we have a united Ireland the entire island should be devolved. Now growing up in a nationalist background I was often told that a united Ireland would have to be completely different than it is now. So a new constitution, flag, anthem, laws, budget, rights etc. But there will always be a percentage of people who would not accept a united Ireland and especially won't accept Dublin rule. This solution I believe to this is to keep the north of Ireland in a devolved state but add onto it so that it doesn't just be NI but the entire province of Ulster and then give each province Munster, Leinster, and Connaught devolution too. Thus giving more power to local communities and governments and away from Dublin and meaning we won't have to dissolve the institutions in Stormont. I think of this in a similar way to America were they have states rights. So we could perhaps depend on Dublin essentially just for massive issues such as the army, international agreements and trade, and keeping up core laws and values but that every province has more power to govern and protect their own citizens. Because the different provinces and the different counties in each province have different needs and in my opinion it would be a lot easier for local people and local authorities to have more power to deal with their own issues rather than to just dump everything onto Dublin because then nothing gets done and nothing will ever get done. This seems complicated I know but it seems to be a bit more doable than just oh yea btw you're ruled from Dublin now. And I don't think anymore borders are the solution. I think that if the opportunity in the 1920s to draw the border was given and it was say "drawn wrong" then how can we trust this time it'll be drawn right especially if demographic changes continue to occur. And that separating people based on differences into two separate sections or states doesn't work. Look at India and Pakistan, Israel and Palestine, South Africa, the former Czechoslovakia, Rwanda. Every time imperialist nations have said oh it's a colour problem, or a religious problem, or an ethnic problem you go here and you go here and it'll be fine and every single time it has just caused more bloodshed and ultimately lead to the collapse of these imperial states. What we need in my opinion is radical political, social, and cultural reforms that Westminster and the Dáil are obligated to do so as the supreme parliaments that govern so that people on either side can be as contempt, happy, respected, and comfortable wherever they live.
The problem with your devolved united ireland idea - is that the unionists won’t break away from Britain. They’re British.
Any future arrangements will have to involve remaining attached to Britain in some way, joint nationality etc.
@@raymondhaskin9449 Yea! That's actually something I've wondered that I've never heard much about! Because we can identify here as British, Irish, Northern Irish or some mixture I believe. So in a UI will this remain and also does it just apply for people within the 6 counties or will it apply for the entire island? And will Northern Ireland have its ability to secede out of a united Ireland if people want that? These are issues that I've not heard much about but I'm interested in how it would work?
@@Jack-yz4ws
So am I. But I don’t know the answers.
Thanks for the comment dude, in future try to break your comments into paragraphs so its easier for me to respond to each point haha.
1) Thanks for that, the images are all from Google so search about and you can find them (most of its on Wikipedia, so search about using the sources I referenced in the video).
2) On a devolved RoI, that was the stance I took for the first Irish video, however after speaking to Unionists and getting their take, I realized that the feelings are far too strong to ever submit to Dublin rule, no matter how devolved or protected they'd be. As an English patriot, ideally I'd prefer an independent Northern Ireland with the borders changed as aforementioned.
3) Giving devolved status for the whole of Ulster would disadvantage the Unionists, who would clearly be in a minority, and so even if a devolved status would be granted, it would have to be for districts that have Unionist majorities, leaving the rest of Ulster as a normal part of RoI.
4) I'm a massive fan of Localism, all matters except for Defence, Foreign Policy and a handful of infrastructure projects like motorways should always be in the hands of local people (I want England to become a federal country with each county having the same powers as a Swiss canton, so even more so than for US states; stay tuned for my aforementioned future video on the US Constitution where I'll go into more detail on that).
5) The border will be drawn better this time precisely because its not bureaucrats and politicians in far distant capitals drawing the border without consent or approval from the locals. This would be decided by the locals and therefore the border would be a much more accurate and useful line than is currently the case. In all of the aforementioned cases you mention, the line was drawn by outsiders and was imposed on locals without consultation. And in this case, with 3-5 years to work it out there would likely be far less violence than we saw in India/Pakistan or Israel/Palestine etc, as folks would be able to negotiate the terms after extensive and deliberative debate and discussion and compromise.
6) Your final point is echoed in my point Number 4, the whole Western world needs radical constitutional reform from first principles, just as America had at her Founding, where the greatest minds and all minds come together to have a metaphorical Year Zero (as in, if we were starting society from scratch, how would we go about constructing it, and then go about slowly and carefully reforming it - I'm fully opposed to Revolutions, so in no way am I suggesting we ought to scrap the entire system now and start again, it must be thought-out first and slowly implemented over time).
7) This is a model for how I want the rest of this comment section to be and I only wish that more people would address this video's content in the same way that you have. We have disagreed but it has been well thought-out and expressed in civil, intelligent terms. God bless you!
@Raymond I have to disagree, only in that in my ideal England would become independent from the rest of the UK and each nation would go their own way, and in that regard the debate would be "Should we join with the Republic of Ireland, or should Northern Ireland be an independent state?"
I don't know how Unionists would vote in such a vote, and I'd love to see polling on it!
I imagine that most would vote for independence, but the more moderates (especially in County Fermanagh and Tyrone) would vote to join the RoI.
My compliments on your research. I speak as an Irish nationalist. My own view is that in very recent time there has been a major shift in the Northern Irish question analysis. I refer to Brexit. There is a very visceral shift to economic issues and this brings in to the debate the third component which was not fully addressed in the Good Friday Agreement and that is the position of Alliance party. They don't have full parity with the others in the de Honte process. In my opinion this cadre will probably decide the nationality outcome you talk about.
I agree, the Alliance party are made up of progressives, left leaning, LGBT etc. I know many who vote Alliance purely because Unionist parties are aligned with religious beliefs. However, that's changed. Alliance, if you have noticed, are showing their cards and for that reason EVERY SINGLE ALLIANCE VOTER (I'm serious too) I know personally, and their friends, guys and girls I've know for 20+ years or more and switching to UUP.
Sinn Fein will not bring about a united Ireland. Remove Sinn Fein and nationalist might have a chance. I suppose, we'll see come May.
Very true, as in all campaigns, its the moderates who decide it.
Energize the Base, Appeal to Moderates and Demonize the Opposition; thats how to win at election time!
Great video, and I get your point that of course Protestants where discriminated against in the early days of the Free State, de Valera was also a pr!ck of epic proportions however, if reunification happened nowadays, the Ireland that the 6 countries would be becoming a part of is way more multicultural, diverse, and equal than the Ireland that was partitioned.
I firmly believe religion wouldn’t be a big issue in this case.
The EU and US would also set in if there was a so-called ethnic cleansing situation like the one possible one you alluded to.
It's not religion, religion is used to define demographics, most people don't care. My boxing gym (decades a member) is mixed. It is identity. 100% down to identity and nationality. And of course there would be discrimination, we're feeling that discrimination right now and we (unionists) are living-supposedly-on British soil. You have to be naive to think there wouldn't be discrimination.
How would you feel if the Irish flag was changed or suddenly removed from various official buildings? The abolishment of the celebration of the IRA, no more easter lily, and more changes to "appease" the unionist population of Northern Ireland, if there was a chance of unification? Doesn't sound good, right? Well that's exactly what is happening to Unionists in their own country. Sinn Fein have pulled the wool over the eyes of their voter base the Southern Irish have no idea what it's like up here in Northern Ireland, really, they don't. And a good % of Alliance voters are actually progressive Unionists and Northern Ireland will see this come next elections because Alliance have paired with SFIRA and the many LGBT/progressive Alliance voters I know will vote UUP because they are actually unionists just not Loyalists. If Sinn Fein pull a majority seating, you must also realise, it is not because they gained, it is because they are a one party trick and unionists are so split over the debacle that is DUP, they gain because the unionist vote is split.
As much as there is a lot of media attention given to the Republican cries for unification, its not as popular as its made out to be. But watch how Alliance is about to be destroyed, along with DUP. interesting times ahead and economically, joing the Republic would be a disaster. Its a romantic idea, nothing more.
@@frosty_soda I’m not from NI so I can’t fully say, but the part of Ireland that I am from, has no issue with unionists or identity. We have orange lodges down here too. And I don’t personally celebrate IRA atrocities post-1922 nor does anyone else here.
My comment was in relation to the supposed discrimination on the island if reunification was to occur tomorrow. Nope, I personally don’t feel both sides are ready for that. The communities of NI need to live together in inclusivity before there can even be talk about a border poll. It’s not as romantic as you might say, I do believe it will happen in time, however I think we are a good 25 years plus before any criteria for a poll is met.
You also talk about us losing our identity to appease unionists and how we wouldn’t stand for it, however government policy down here regarding possible unification states that the current Republic that I call home would cease to exist. Our flag, anthem, political titles (Taoiseach etc) would be fine and the island would be a new Ireland. A shared Ireland and an inclusive Ireland and myself and many others feels that is the right move in order to sustain peace in such an event.
I think the status quo is safe, for the foreseeable though, it’s not an immediate thing, in fact I think Scotland will leave the union before NI does, but I think it’s something that will happen 2-3 decades down the line, but the bitterness and division up there, on both sides needs to end before we even discuss that.
@@darrencorr5903 I find your reply perfectly reflects the 2 years I spent living in Kilcock, Maynooth. Know the places?
You are an Irishman that I got on well with. Don't get me wrong, it's a completely different ball game down there, in Mexico (South of the border) 😆 .
Up here, there are plenty up the middle type of folks, but make no bones about it, there is fierce tribalism. I've always said Southerner really don't fully appreciate the way things are here. Honestly mate, I'm a unionist who fought out of an extremely nationalist gym, some (or most) are Sinn Fein voters, 25+ years of it, back when the bombs were still going. I was lucky to experience love from all sides but these days is different, there's a very worrying trend.
I agree, not now. If it happened now with the likes of Sinn Fein in power it will be the troubles 2.0.
Yes, religion wouldn't be as much of an issue, but nationality would be, and that's not going anywhere for Nationalists/Unionists alike, hence why unification is impossible.
Impressive research my man! The Pt 1 & 2 videos are great resources for younger generations.
Thanks I'm so thankful for the feedback, this was such a divisive topic I'm just bracing for the deluge of hate. Literally any words of kindness are a blessing to me haha!
Yes he is pulling hard for the loyalist people.
Great video :). I'm from NI and would consider myself Irish (albeit Atheist as opposed to Catholic), but I'm totally sick of the political divide here and thinking of moving to London soon anyway. Things are ok now, but honestly, as demographics continue in the direction of Irish nationalism, I'm worried what sort of violence a united Ireland could bring, because I respect that many unionist/loyalist communities are totally antagonistic to the idea and Sinn Fein haven't exactly extended their vote across the community to win them over (the progressive policies can win over young people but not unionism). In saying that, I think long-term this place would be economically better off by joining the republic but I'd give it at least 100 years for things to calm down between communities first! Step one is integrated education...
Unionist violence has always been done to try to lever the UK forces in to enforce partition and the NI Union with U.K. A proportion of it has direct covert involvement of M16 or the Paras etc. If the UK genuinely withdrew and didn't interfere could we not sort all this out? Hundreds of thousands on non Catholic people already live peacefully in the Republic of Ireland.
I don't see how those who vote DUP and celebrate 12th July with bonfires of Irish tricolours are somehow going to one day accept becoming Irish. Not now, not in 100 years!
Its not about Religion, its about National Identity. That's what I focused on with this video, its the right of the people of Ulster on both sides of the divide to have Self-Determination.
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp The question is, in 100 years time, how much of the population of Northern Ireland will comprise of flag-burning, DUP-supporting loyalists? Could easily fall to a level where a united Ireland is a possibility. Will be interesting to see what the 2021 census results are in terms of continuing demographic shift. I think the DUP urgently needs to shift its policies towards younger voters soon though because it won't be good for them in the long run.
Yes for sure, the Unionist parties need to liberalize their stance on issues. However, even in 100 year's time, folks will want to be governed by their own customs and culture, not by a foreign one, so it just won't happen.
One oughtn't to base one's hopes on folks changing the habits of 400 years within the next 100 years.
Another thought-provoking video. I don't feel like you have a bias, you've said things that would kind of piss off both communities here. Your videos are uniquely well researched, strange to hear an Englishman sound like he actually knows a bit about the North. Respect
Yep, that was the plan, piss off both communities equally enough for neither to (reasonably) say that I'm for one side or the other, whilst also making the case that would either please or annoy each side equally.
Judging from the comments though, it seems to be the Nationalists who have the hardest time accepting that their dream of a United Ireland are fantasies, and in-spite me laying out the case slowly and methodically for 37 minutes, they still can't let their dream go, even if 1 million Unionists stand in their way.
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp aye, it's a particularly wounded community sometimes. True believers. Certain rebellious bitterness entrenched in West Belfast which would be the Nationalist cultural hub, you see it in the murals, even. National liberation, revenge and martyrdom. I'm a Unionist, brought up Protestant. In a village that used to be Unionist, but has become increasingly Nationalist. Most of my mates growing up were Catholic, and I have such a fondness for the people in West Belfast and Irish culture. Just have to steer clear of the most sensitive issues and have adopted like a Protestant apologetic approach. The few Catholics in the agricultural village half my family is from when my father was growing up in the 50s/60s were on good terms with the majority Protestants. More segregated even now than it was then.
There are always Catholics who have a deep distrust and spite of me, and the whole Unionist community... And the state. Lawlessness and anti-peeler/state mindset is the culture of West Belfast, and it is good craic unfortunately. My experience with working class urban protestants who make up the other half of my family is different. A sort of culture of respect there. I feel that the state and institutions have started to wipe their arse with Unionists. Less academically/politically oriented than working class Catholics. The fucking Kinahans have moved into the West and slashy Dublin crime is in my small town.
I went through the state school system resenting my own Unionist community, always represented on the radio/TV as bigoted ignorant dunces and took that attitude all the way through university. Hard to try to match up experience with history, myth and present reality...
Off the wall .....
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp Do you support the smashing up of EU citizen's homes in N.I. by UK nationalist "Patriots"?
@@casteretpollux Katharine the more you talk, the worse you look. True for almost everyone but it's particularly acute in you. Are you a British army cyber-spy? Trying to make Nationalists look like fools?
It's a pity more English people didn't take as much interest as you, to your credit.
The Unionist. Position is much like that of Afrikaaners who saw no problem with apartheid because it suited them fully. So they resisted change totally.
The Troubles didn't start in 1969 they started in the 12th century.
Even the Unionists know we are in the end game.
It's nothing like apartheid. Ireland was united once, under British rule. The Gaels invaded and pushed the aboriginal inhabitants out to Scotland, they simply returned around 1609. Read some T.F O’Rahilly or Thomas O'Connor.
True to an extent based on the gerrymandering, but Apartheid was nowhere near gerrymandering, so I wouldn't even begin to compare this to Apartheid, it undermines the true horrors of that evil system.
Which evil system?
The one in Africa or the one in Ireland?
@@frosty_soda
My point exactly.
Under British rule, they didn't want that, ever.
@@johnfoley9031 there was only one evil system and it was in South Africa during apartheid. The fact you ate calling up atrocities from 100s of years ago shows us all exactly why a lot of people need to move on....erm...I mean...forget the events of 100s of years ago.
But hey you do realise I can do the same? Bloody Sunday wasn't even the worst atrocity but it gains the most attention the worst were the omagh bombings, the Shankill bombings the ethnic cleansing of border towns, one friends family had his farm taken.
You need to quit drinking the republican cool aid. It's a known fact that the IRA murdered more Catholics than all loyalist paramilitaries combined and the British forces did their job. Human error aside, the IRA deliberately targeted the weak and unnarmed. Let that sink in.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with most of this. This is purely a regurgitation of 'hardline unionist/loyalist' thought and panders to the old colonial attitudes... Partition has failed 'all' the people in every way, socially and economically. Re-partitioning or creating a smaller Protestant/unionist statelet would only condense the problem into an ever shrinking area. The only long term solution is an inclusive 'United' Ireland, one that has been negotiated and agreed upon by the majority of people and possibly prior to any border poll. Yes, possibly there would be unionist/loyalist violence...but there always has been since partition...
Well it wouldn't because the vast majority would be Unionist and most Nationalists would be in their own country. The stance of a United Ireland robs the Unionists of their own right to Self-Determination and basically tells them to be quiet and give up their dreams of being governed under the flag they want.
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp So repeating a past mistake on a smaller scale is good politics ?... we can use your argument if we look at partition from a Nationalist viewpoint considering community dreams and aspirations, were they not forced to live under a flag they did not want ?.. Why then would you elevate one communities (unionist/loyalist) aspirations over another ? going forward, a fully negotiated and agreed 'New Ireland' that has a respectful constitution for all is the only long term political solution.
With respect, this is absolutely backwards: the original partition was done without consent or consultation, this would be done by both.
The past wrong was the denial of Self-Determiation to one group by saying they ought to just submit to a United Kingdom; the call now for a United Ireland is just the other side of the same inhumane coin.
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp ...not backwards at all... You are promoting a very blinkered view, focused purely on a unionist/loyalist agenda...' a Protestant parliament for a Protestant people' ?, again... Partition only produced two failed states. Thankfully, the political landscape has changed somewhat in Ireland and there is now an opportunity to repair past mistakes both north and south. A New Ireland, one that has been conceived 'by the people, for the people' , respectful of all traditions, creeds and race.... the time for saying 'no, nay, never' has long past...
Great analysis. And nice inclusion of
Kipling’s 1912 poem.
In the end of the day, the people in Northern Ireland are mainly British.
A more accurate term for the Northern irelanders is the Ulster Scots. Descended from Lowland Scots and Border English protestant families. These people are unique from the rest of Ireland. That should always be respected.
Very true, I cover that lineage in the original video on this topic, and thanks for the compliment on my analysis and my inclusion of Kipling's poem, thought it'd get me in a lot of trouble lol
While that's predominantly true, it is trending towards a reversal currently with a recent poll suggesting some 51% of the population identifying as Nationalist, though that doesn't necessarily mean that the majority identify as Irish etc. It is just a very telling statistic in my opinion
Thanks for sharing that with us Ryan!
When facts are inconvenient make up your own, it’s how President Trump won the 2020 election.
The 2021 census results will be hard to drape a flag over.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 If you have nothing but snarky comments to offer, keep them to yourself or to a channel that cares to hear them, thanks. Disagreement is more than fine, but I cant stand poisoning the well of discourse by those acting in bad faith.
You have offered no solutions, you have simply ignored what I explained in the video that a United Ireland cannot happen and ought not to happen, and why? Because you pick a pipe dream over real people on the ground. Its just a numbers game for you, and 1 million Unionists have just as much right to Self-Determination as 1 million Nationalists.
Lol but its not Doyle it's Dawl for the Dail
Loooool you know what, its Dail as in Fail, Im fed up with this language now, just leave me in peace! ;( no wonder the Unionists keep kicking off about it! (Joking ofc!)
In the Ulster dialect Dáil is pronounced as Doyle and Foyle anyway
I used to lived in NI for 10 years! definitely is a bad idea a new partition. It will delay the problems for a few years. We wouldn't like a new Jerusalem in Belfast. The demografic reality of NI will need to be respected. The are a lot of minorities in a country which live peacefully. I think NI will follow the Canada-Quebec example. But here is much easier because English is the common language. And the influx of EU foreigners favour more catholics rather than protestants. Don't forget that the younger people don't look anymore at nationalities, but at the economic advantages, and geographically and economically (after Brexit) is beside Ireland, not UK!
England, Wales and Scotland are doing great due to Brexit. Brexit has been good to the UK. No offence, but Ireland is being bled dry by the EU and they're getting hit with even more bills and as for foreigners favouring Ireland, wrong again. I've been close friends with the Polish community, I was married to a Pole. They want to remain in the UK. Not even a question about it. In fact, many now do not want anything to do with the EU. What was 2016 sentiment has definitely changed. I too was pro-EU, political positions are more dynamic these days. Don't hold your breath on that line of reasoning. Just saying. There's many like myself too.
I disagree, Quebec is a never-ending issue, as is Catalonia, Palestine etc etc. Nationality is and always will be important, and as aforementioned, if 100 years of belonging to Northern Ireland hasnt placated Irish nationalism, why would the Unionists be placated? And if nationalism doesnt matter anymore, ask how one would feel with one's country being governed by one's neighbour, and ask then whether nationalism matters. I love Ireland, but I'd be damned to be governed by them, and I expect the same in return.
@@frosty_soda Exactly, I was so tempted to have a picture of the border down the Irish Sea whilst reading the poem, but I thought it'd be too provocative. Unionists have been thrown under the bus by London, most of their trade is with England and yet England abandoned them to get a crappy deal we should never have agreed to.
Don't forget most young people are not religious bigots and 100,000s of protestants and atheists live happily and peacefully in the RoI.
@@frosty_soda oh really - thousands of EU citizens have already left the UK due to racism and insecurity. Ireland has the highest EU support in the Union. You are trolling I think.
well done.
Glad you enjoyed it, much appreciated!
hahaha knowing you it's funny to think of you as upper class
Loooool trust! Oh and btw, Im gonna do the Catalonia video some point soon, its still on my To Do List!
The lesson from history is take any solution gifted from enlightened English people and throw it into the bin.
*You* are saying that an outsider should *not* try to ‘solve’ N.I. but _England_ unilaterally will let local communities of a vague size determine *how we re-draw the border* to start the whole delightful process all over again.
Have you looked at the Lord Ashcroft survey’s age spread? the next border would be outmoded in a single generation as the pensioners die off. Your solution will end up with a border around individual houses, so what about high rise flats?
Loool dunno if this is aimed at me, but after reading the comment section it feels like most Nationalists have taken my well-argued case and thrown it in the bin; sacrificing the lives, dreams and desires of 1 million Unionists at the altar of their dream of a United Ireland.
Oops, I expanded my offering just as you replied. You are leaving the middle ground high and dry and have fallen in behind the loudest flag waving _community activists._ Banging a drum and waving a flag doesn’t carry an extra vote so wait and see the result of next year’s election and at about the same time the 2021 census summary will be out.
Drawing a new *beeping border* is learning nothing from history, you are putting the solution inside the limitations of the problem, was the April 1945 Thousand Year Reich offered the opportunity to put its house in order in its own way?
From the middle field the animals in both camps look equally plastered in their own manure.
Who's saying England will unilaterally do it, the folks in NI can do it themselves.
The argument about age ignores geographic spread, as the coastal east of NI has an overwhelming majority of all ages and even amongst Catholics who identify as being British.
A redrawing of the border once will mean a majority for the forseeable future, as most Nationalist population growth has been focused in the cities of Derry and Belfast within the specific Nationalist neighbourhoods.
You also ignored my suggestions specifically saying it ought not to be on such a micro level and ought to be done by district, which implies to me that you only heard what you wanted to hear.
@@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 And what is the so-called "middle ground"? Nothing was ever achieved by middle grounders, they are nothing but the timid masses who adopt a change only when it looks set to win. Nationalists have spurred the conversation to this point not by taking the middle ground, and neither was the middle ground sought when the Unionists signed the Ulster Covenant.
History isnt written by the middle ground.
Pure British Propaganda
But I'm English, not British, and as aforementioned, I have no vested interest in NI, so explain what part of this is propaganda? And what is your proposal then if you don't like mine? If you can't lay out a decent counter-argument, don't speak on it.
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp its because he doesn't like facts.
@@frosty_soda ........
@@skeletonkeysproductionskp what part of free speech do ypi object too, the part that will not lie down and role over for your British or as you emphasised English imperialist view?
@@nedhappened3085 Looool no one is questioning your freedom of speech, by all means, use it to explain what part of this video was British propaganda (especially note the parts when I show the number of civilians the British Army killed, and also the fact I explicitly stated how I, as an English patriot, want to dissolve the British Union).