I know you like originality, but seriously consider going electronic ignition. I really think it will unleash the best from this bike and the factory engineers would approve.
Good to see you posting, was getting worried! You have the patience of a Saint Angus hearing all this is ongoing. Reading the responses I can't offer anything more that could possibly help sorry, but wish you sincere best of luck.
Hi Paul still alive kicking this end thanks. Yea the hiatus was due to waiting for parts in both A70 and E35SS cases. Thanks for wishes - I don’t believe in luck - we’ll get this sorted with logic, testing, repairing, patience and tenacity all rolled into one. With the occasional sit down and just looking at the art over a cuppa!
Hello Mr. Campbell, don't forget that closing ignition points gap will retard the ignition timing. Could I also encourage you to open that garage door before starting the bike.
Hi and thanks for the comment and interest. Yes indeed and agreed that the points will slightly retard/advance ignition depending upon the gap. I do normally open the door when running the bikes but sometimes the excitement gets the better of me. However, I've never got to the point of displaying cherry red lips. Thanks again.
Lucas parts are sourced from around the world to ensure best quality ? i would be tempted to go electronic ,my a10 s/r has high comp pistons 9.1 and it pinks at times and i have tried to get it all spot on i really need 4/5 star petrol so i think 8.25 - 1 might be the way to go good luck
Hi Richard thanks for the interest and comment. I think we’re sorted now I have NOS parts fitted and agree that the highest octane petrol that you can get should be used.
That sounded way better!I would also go a electronic,but your the Boss,we are flys on the wall.Good move on condensers no point changing everything then not pinpointing.Fingers crossed for you Angus on the test run.I watched one of Paul Henshaws on end float.I thought that Brg mod was a done deal but it seems theres pros and cons to it.👍
Hi,Angus.This points saga has caused you some serious headaches. It will be interesting to see what further improvement you get when the new/old stock parts arrive from the USA and the strobe has been employed. You'll probably class me as a heathen but I would seriously consider a well engineered electronic ignition pack.
Hi Angus, I hope you have now resolved the ignition problem. Did you strobe the timing and how did the pointer line up on the rotor mark? Considering that the A65 is 34º and the A70 38º the mark will not line up unless the rotor is marked differently. There does not seem to be an A70 specific rotor or primary case.
Hi Dave - thanks for the interest and comment.You're bang in that you can't use the rotor marks to strobe the bike. So I had to rely on accurate static timing with the crank plug and either a meter or bulb across the points. I know my method should be accurate enough as I use it on the triple and when checking with the strobe, I never have to alter the points setting. Anyhow all fixed now and waiting for the right time to get some more miles on it. Starts reliably, sounds and runs well.
Thanks for getting back so quick. Using the slot in the flywheel as my start point I put an extra mark on my rotor for checking by strobe. No advantage really as the static timing was accurate.
Hi Angus, I just stumbled onto your channel when I saw ‘Power Set’, very nice bikes and good presentation. I just bought a new Lucas branded wiring loom in a Lucas branded green box just like those points boxes off EBay for my ‘72 Triumph T120RV. I thought great, someone has got Lucas up and running in UK and remaking looms. When the loom arrived, there was a rudimentary schematic, and sturdy fabric covering was good, but the gauge of the wire (seems thin) and the thickness of the insulation (seems thick) is of some concern as it’s proving stiff to manipulate around the frame. I’ve since looked on t’internet and all the wiring looms for a bewildering variety of British bikes are also available in retro red boxes with the Lucas coat of arms on them, as from the 60s. I’m not sure what’s going on, maybe someone has bought the brand and Logos and is having parts made somewhere. I know that Emgo was/is making pattern British parts in Korea, I think. Can any of your subscribers throw light on the subject?
Hi and thanks for the interest and comment. I've done a bit of investigation in the meantime and the Lucas electrics brand is now owned by ZF TRW in the US. I think they're remanufacturing parts legitimately under the brand but not to the same quality and perhaps outsourcing too. So the motto is to be very careful and try to secure NOS if you want the same quality, but that's getting difficult I know. Thanks again.
Angus D. Campbell You are welcome! Thanks for your prompt reply Angus. I seem to remember TRW used to make replacement car parts (ball joints etc.,) in UK in 70s, but I may be wrong. I left UK in the early 80’s for a ‘land down under’ so I rely on whatever parts I can get. Your Lightning appears to have new fabric wrapping on its loom, was it NOS?
The Lightning does have a new loom but not NOS - one of the "new" Lucas branded green boxes. It's not bad but there are some anomalies - the bullets are not quite the same but fortunately do work, and the instrument light socket connections are wrong so foul the headlight reflector, so I had to dig out good originals from my stash. Just little things but annoying nevertheless.
Angus D. Campbell Thanks for the heads up, I also separately bought the headlight loom but haven’t checked the bulb holders. I’m psyching myself up for overdue activities on the Bonnie. Your work has become a motivation!
bit late now to be making a suggestion now but i would have stuck the post back in the hole it came out of and peened the joint end of the post... with a little care... would have been good as new
Thanks for the interest and video. I disagree as comparing this to an original NOS item showed how poorly it was made with inferior thicknesses and materials so it wouldn’t have lasted long. The vast majority of pattern parts these days are poor quality poor fitting items.
I know your approach is to be original as it left the factory Angus, but the only reason points and mechanical advance retard were used was because there was no viable alternative. They are are inferior and introduce a great risk of failure considerably. If there was any redeeming quality to points, some manufacturers would still use them, and I may be mistaken, but that doesn't happen at all. Congratulations for sticking with it and resolving the issue though 😀
I had a old British Austin-Healey car I ran into lots of problems with Lucas branded and other British name branded parts that were absolute crap. It was extremely irritating to get new parts and have to completely rebuild the new part to achieve a functional condition.
Interesting side note the points in a Bendix voltage regulator for an aircraft costing $100 and an identical appearing Bendix regulator for an automobile costing $16 was the alloy the contact points were made out of. It had to do with the way contact points were affected by increased altitude and the different gas mix depending on the altitude you were flying at. If it was a little Cessna 150 or something similar that had a service ceiling of about 10,000 feet the automotive regulator would work absolutely perfectly well however not legally to use because once it's fitted to an airplane someone might assume that it was an airplane regulator and put it in an aircraft capable of reaching twice that altitude then you have a problem. This was told to me by an Aerospace electrical engineer not far from the Skunk Works in California.
Here in the states we've run into a big problem with counterfeit spark plugs ! And it doesn't seem to matter if it's Bosch Autolite Champion Nippon Denso NGK lots of counterfeit spark plugs. Even the packaging is nearly identical but not quite !
Angus--for God's sake, install a Lucas/Rita electronic ignition and be done with it. That points system looks like hell and it's nearly new. Also, (and I know as purist you will go straight to BSA-hell for doing this) install an oil cooler just as Royal Enfield did. The "cave-dwellers" near Redditch understood that TWINS RUN HOT and their "rock catcher" oil cooler was their answer. They were right--it does work. Get the BSA version of that. I'll bet if you dig deep enough it was out there in 1972. Now, go get a pint of Magners and move along.
Hi John - sorry I'm an originality man and that's a major objective for me. Don't get me wrong - I'm interested in and appreciate mods other people have done to their bikes so I'm not a "that's not right" critical heathen. I'll go for a red wine or IPA rather than a Magners. Moving on .... thanks for interest and comment.
Hi m8 glad you are sorting it out i would have lost my cool and give the cat a good kick by now ......oh we don`t have a cat my bull terrier ate it .....only joking 😜👍
Perhaps David - all fixed now. My R3 had a Boyer fitted when I bought it - had nothing but trouble so had to ditch it. Thanks for interest and comment.
@@BSAPowerSet i have no experience whatsoever with boyers triple boxes.. but the mk3 and later have given me decades of service, only interrupted by broken wires, poor charging and switches, no faults in the little black box. Plus i never have to mess with all those capacitors, auto advancers, and bouncy old points and miles of wiring just waiting to vibrate apart.
@@datadavis yea I know they’re usually reliable - I was just unlucky -I suppose - the system worked for 15 mins or so after starting then the ignition side would degrade and the bike would begin to misfire on all cylinders before dying and then not restarting. Leave it a few hours and it would start up fine. So in the bin it went. At least I’ve got some fault tolerance now with three of everything lol. Cheers David.
@@datadavis Agree David that’s where I started to investigate but to no avail - ditched the Boyer went back to original and no problem since. I do agree though that electronic should be more reliable and require less maintenance.
Even before you discovered you had been sold crap, I was going to say that I've heard that modern new replica CB points are of poor quality compared to the originals, forcing people to convert to electronic ignition. E-ignition has pros and cons compared to the old CB points systems. One of the main time and hence money wasters in restoring British and American motorcycles is the poor quality of replica parts.
I recommend you get in touch with someone who has a multi trace oscilloscope they're not uncommon high schools and colleges and lots of other repair facilities often use IN TV and radio repair. Hooked up to the primary side of your ignition system and run the motor and look and see what's actually happening in the primary circuit lots of photos of tracers that are proper on the internet.
Yep absolutely right David - it was their strategy to be begin to integrate the two brands at this time - rolling chassis exactly the same except for the tank.
Hi Ian - agreed and very frustrating. Yes you have to know your sources these days to Trust them. Trouble is many of them don't have the original parts left. There's been plenty of other examples on this build of pattern parts that appear to be good quality but don't quite fit - rear mudguard, exhaust pipes, ali trim on the petrol tank to name a few.
The thing is such a small failure of such a component can leave one stranded, yet one has bought a ‘Lucas’ item with the hope that the former quality is ongoing. It is nothing short of a lie. I had such hopes when Lucas started selling classic components again. Triumph is making the same mistake in making most of its machines in Thailand. It doesn’t understand its returning market!
@@BSAPowerSet Are you putting a strobe on it to check timing? It changes every time you adjust points gap or remove any of the bits especially the points cam, 2 degrees on it is 4 at the crank. You also need to consider if A70s with longer stroke had less total advance than the A65s 34degrees, I would check where it's marked and strobe both points and get it exact. Probably on 30degree max with modern fuel. Does the new advance unit have stronger springs? If the old one moves easier with old springs, that have less tension, it advances earlier which can cause pinking. (it shouldn't move without the springs controlling it). It should reach full advance around 3,000rpm. It sounds nice.
Thanks for interest and comment. Think we’re sorted now and all appears well but must admit that I was thinking electronic until I managed to source original NOS set.
@@BSAPowerSet Well, if originality is the aim here, points are it. If functionality is what you seek, install an electronic system, and put your hard-to-find parts in a safe location.
@@thrummer1953 Indeed originality is the objective and all the bikes in the stable run points. I'm lucky in that when I sourced NOS backplate and points for the A70 (same as A65), there were two sets, so I bagged them both and therefore still have spares. Thanks again for the interest.
@@BSAPowerSet That being the case, you did right. Try to understand, I just hate points. I had a duel-point Yamaha TX-500 which I converted to electronic, and I added some better coils. Made a big and lasting difference.
I know you like originality, but seriously consider going electronic ignition.
I really think it will unleash the best from this bike and the factory engineers would approve.
Yea I know Thomas - it was going through my mind at one point when making this video and you can guess when that was.
Good to see you posting, was getting worried! You have the patience of a Saint Angus hearing all this is ongoing. Reading the responses I can't offer anything more that could possibly help sorry, but wish you sincere best of luck.
Hi Paul still alive kicking this end thanks. Yea the hiatus was due to waiting for parts in both A70 and E35SS cases. Thanks for wishes - I don’t believe in luck - we’ll get this sorted with logic, testing, repairing, patience and tenacity all rolled into one. With the occasional sit down and just looking at the art over a cuppa!
Hello Mr. Campbell, don't forget that closing ignition points gap will retard the ignition timing. Could I also encourage you to open that garage door before starting the bike.
Hi and thanks for the comment and interest. Yes indeed and agreed that the points will slightly retard/advance ignition depending upon the gap. I do normally open the door when running the bikes but sometimes the excitement gets the better of me. However, I've never got to the point of displaying cherry red lips. Thanks again.
Closing the points ADVANCES the ignition timing!!!
Lucas parts are sourced from around the world to ensure best quality ? i would be tempted to go electronic ,my a10 s/r has high comp pistons 9.1 and it pinks at times and i have tried to get it all spot on i really need 4/5 star petrol so i think 8.25 - 1 might be the way to go good luck
Hi Richard thanks for the interest and comment. I think we’re sorted now I have NOS parts fitted and agree that the highest octane petrol that you can get should be used.
That sounded way better!I would also go a electronic,but your the Boss,we are flys on the wall.Good move on condensers no point changing everything then not pinpointing.Fingers crossed for you Angus on the test run.I watched one of Paul Henshaws on end float.I thought that Brg mod was a done deal but it seems theres pros and cons to it.👍
Cheers thanks Sam.
Hi,Angus.This points saga has caused you some serious headaches. It will be interesting to see what further improvement you get when the new/old stock parts arrive from the USA and the strobe has been employed. You'll probably class me as a heathen but I would seriously consider a well engineered electronic ignition pack.
Let’s say challenges rather than headaches Howard. No one is a heathen - each to his own. We’re getting there - as British Rail used to say.
Hi Angus, I hope you have now resolved the ignition problem. Did you strobe the timing and how did the pointer line up on the rotor mark? Considering that the A65 is 34º and the A70 38º the mark will not line up unless the rotor is marked differently. There does not seem to be an A70 specific rotor or primary case.
Hi Dave - thanks for the interest and comment.You're bang in that you can't use the rotor marks to strobe the bike. So I had to rely on accurate static timing with the crank plug and either a meter or bulb across the points. I know my method should be accurate enough as I use it on the triple and when checking with the strobe, I never have to alter the points setting. Anyhow all fixed now and waiting for the right time to get some more miles on it. Starts reliably, sounds and runs well.
Thanks for getting back so quick. Using the slot in the flywheel as my start point I put an extra mark on my rotor for checking by strobe. No advantage really as the static timing was accurate.
Hi Angus, I just stumbled onto your channel when I saw ‘Power Set’, very nice bikes and good presentation.
I just bought a new Lucas branded wiring loom in a Lucas branded green box just like those points boxes off EBay for my ‘72 Triumph T120RV.
I thought great, someone has got Lucas up and running in UK and remaking looms. When the loom arrived, there was a rudimentary schematic, and sturdy fabric covering was good, but the gauge of the wire (seems thin) and the thickness of the insulation (seems thick) is of some concern as it’s proving stiff to manipulate around the frame.
I’ve since looked on t’internet and all the wiring looms for a bewildering variety of British bikes are also available in retro red boxes with the Lucas coat of arms on them, as from the 60s.
I’m not sure what’s going on, maybe someone has bought the brand and Logos and is having parts made somewhere.
I know that Emgo was/is making pattern British parts in Korea, I think.
Can any of your subscribers throw light on the subject?
Hi and thanks for the interest and comment. I've done a bit of investigation in the meantime and the Lucas electrics brand is now owned by ZF TRW in the US. I think they're remanufacturing parts legitimately under the brand but not to the same quality and perhaps outsourcing too. So the motto is to be very careful and try to secure NOS if you want the same quality, but that's getting difficult I know. Thanks again.
Angus D. Campbell You are welcome! Thanks for your prompt reply Angus.
I seem to remember TRW used to make replacement car parts (ball joints etc.,) in UK in 70s, but I may be wrong.
I left UK in the early 80’s for a ‘land down under’ so I rely on whatever parts I can get. Your Lightning appears to have new fabric wrapping on its loom, was it NOS?
The Lightning does have a new loom but not NOS - one of the "new" Lucas branded green boxes. It's not bad but there are some anomalies - the bullets are not quite the same but fortunately do work, and the instrument light socket connections are wrong so foul the headlight reflector, so I had to dig out good originals from my stash. Just little things but annoying nevertheless.
Angus D. Campbell Thanks for the heads up, I also separately bought the headlight loom but haven’t checked the bulb holders. I’m psyching myself up for overdue activities on the Bonnie. Your work has become a motivation!
No probs, happy to help and thanks again for the interest. Now get that baby on the road!
bit late now to be making a suggestion now but i would have stuck the post back in the hole it came out of and peened the joint end of the post... with a little care... would have been good as new
Thanks for the interest and video. I disagree as comparing this to an original NOS item showed how poorly it was made with inferior thicknesses and materials so it wouldn’t have lasted long. The vast majority of pattern parts these days are poor quality poor fitting items.
I know your approach is to be original as it left the factory Angus, but the only reason points and mechanical advance retard were used was because there was no viable alternative. They are are inferior and introduce a great risk of failure considerably. If there was any redeeming quality to points, some manufacturers would still use them, and I may be mistaken, but that doesn't happen at all. Congratulations for sticking with it and resolving the issue though 😀
Cheers Andy. Yep we'll stick with it a bit longer yet, especially as we've now made progress.
I had a old British Austin-Healey car I ran into lots of problems with Lucas branded and other British name branded parts that were absolute crap. It was extremely irritating to get new parts and have to completely rebuild the new part to achieve a functional condition.
Lucas is made in india today.
Good video, Chinese points,never s good thing... looking forward to some action shots,...
Yep hopefully soon Matt cheers
Interesting side note the points in a Bendix voltage regulator for an aircraft costing $100 and an identical appearing Bendix regulator for an automobile costing $16 was the alloy the contact points were made out of. It had to do with the way contact points were affected by increased altitude and the different gas mix depending on the altitude you were flying at. If it was a little Cessna 150 or something similar that had a service ceiling of about 10,000 feet the automotive regulator would work absolutely perfectly well however not legally to use because once it's fitted to an airplane someone might assume that it was an airplane regulator and put it in an aircraft capable of reaching twice that altitude then you have a problem. This was told to me by an Aerospace electrical engineer not far from the Skunk Works in California.
Hello Matt.
Here in the states we've run into a big problem with counterfeit spark plugs ! And it doesn't seem to matter if it's Bosch Autolite Champion Nippon Denso NGK lots of counterfeit spark plugs. Even the packaging is nearly identical but not quite !
Yep it's disheartening - BIG problem atm.
Have you filled it with new petrol modern fuel goes off after a few months cheers
Lol it hasn’t been that long Alistair although it feels like it sometimes! Thanks for interest.
Angus--for God's sake, install a Lucas/Rita electronic ignition and be done with it. That points system looks like hell and it's nearly new. Also, (and I know as purist you will go straight to BSA-hell for doing this) install an oil cooler just as Royal Enfield did. The "cave-dwellers" near Redditch understood that TWINS RUN HOT and their "rock catcher" oil cooler was their answer. They were right--it does work. Get the BSA version of that. I'll bet if you dig deep enough it was out there in 1972. Now, go get a pint of Magners and move along.
Hi John - sorry I'm an originality man and that's a major objective for me. Don't get me wrong - I'm interested in and appreciate mods other people have done to their bikes so I'm not a "that's not right" critical heathen. I'll go for a red wine or IPA rather than a Magners. Moving on .... thanks for interest and comment.
Hi m8 glad you are sorting it out i would have lost my cool and give the cat a good kick by now ......oh we don`t have a cat my bull terrier ate it .....only joking 😜👍
Thanks Mick lol we don't have a cat either. I nearly lost it when the post broke off the points backplate ........
Fit a boyer and ride happily ever after😌
Perhaps David - all fixed now. My R3 had a Boyer fitted when I bought it - had nothing but trouble so had to ditch it. Thanks for interest and comment.
@@BSAPowerSet i have no experience whatsoever with boyers triple boxes.. but the mk3 and later have given me decades of service, only interrupted by broken wires, poor charging and switches, no faults in the little black box. Plus i never have to mess with all those capacitors, auto advancers, and bouncy old points and miles of wiring just waiting to vibrate apart.
@@datadavis yea I know they’re usually reliable - I was just unlucky -I suppose - the system worked for 15 mins or so after starting then the ignition side would degrade and the bike would begin to misfire on all cylinders before dying and then not restarting. Leave it a few hours and it would start up fine. So in the bin it went. At least I’ve got some fault tolerance now with three of everything lol. Cheers David.
@@BSAPowerSet sounds more like a wiring issue or poor charging to me
@@datadavis Agree David that’s where I started to investigate but to no avail - ditched the Boyer went back to original and no problem since. I do agree though that electronic should be more reliable and require less maintenance.
YOU REALLY NEED BETTER LIGHTING AND A SHARP PONTER SO WE CAN SEE WHAT YOU ARE REFFERING TO ....
Thanks for the interest and for the feedback - will take note.
Even before you discovered you had been sold crap, I was going to say that I've heard that modern new replica CB points are of poor quality compared to the originals, forcing people to convert to electronic ignition. E-ignition has pros and cons compared to the old CB points systems. One of the main time and hence money wasters in restoring British and American motorcycles is the poor quality of replica parts.
Couldn’t agree more Randal and NOS original items are now scarce or getting prohibitively expensive.
I recommend you get in touch with someone who has a multi trace oscilloscope they're not uncommon high schools and colleges and lots of other repair facilities often use IN TV and radio repair. Hooked up to the primary side of your ignition system and run the motor and look and see what's actually happening in the primary circuit lots of photos of tracers that are proper on the internet.
Thanks - hadn't thought of that and my son is a physics grad - got me thinking.
Triumph and bsa lost there identity, looks like a bonny, different engine
Yep absolutely right David - it was their strategy to be begin to integrate the two brands at this time - rolling chassis exactly the same except for the tank.
You should show/send this video to Lucas, or Wassell as they really are. Utterly disgraceful!
Hi Ian - agreed and very frustrating. Yes you have to know your sources these days to Trust them. Trouble is many of them don't have the original parts left. There's been plenty of other examples on this build of pattern parts that appear to be good quality but don't quite fit - rear mudguard, exhaust pipes, ali trim on the petrol tank to name a few.
The thing is such a small failure of such a component can leave one stranded, yet one has bought a ‘Lucas’ item with the hope that the former quality is ongoing. It is nothing short of a lie. I had such hopes when Lucas started selling classic components again. Triumph is making the same mistake in making most of its machines in Thailand. It doesn’t understand its returning market!
Spot on Ian.
@@BSAPowerSet Are you putting a strobe on it to check timing? It changes every time you adjust points gap or remove any of the bits especially the points cam, 2 degrees on it is 4 at the crank. You also need to consider if A70s with longer stroke had less total advance than the A65s 34degrees, I would check where it's marked and strobe both points and get it exact. Probably on 30degree max with modern fuel. Does the new advance unit have stronger springs? If the old one moves easier with old springs, that have less tension, it advances earlier which can cause pinking. (it shouldn't move without the springs controlling it). It should reach full advance around 3,000rpm.
It sounds nice.
Yes Mark I will be strobing and you raise some great considerations re this setup - thanks.
Lose the Points!
Thanks for interest and comment. Think we’re sorted now and all appears well but must admit that I was thinking electronic until I managed to source original NOS set.
@@BSAPowerSet Well, if originality is the aim here, points are it. If functionality is what you seek, install an electronic system, and put your hard-to-find parts in a safe location.
@@thrummer1953 Indeed originality is the objective and all the bikes in the stable run points. I'm lucky in that when I sourced NOS backplate and points for the A70 (same as A65), there were two sets, so I bagged them both and therefore still have spares. Thanks again for the interest.
@@BSAPowerSet That being the case, you did right. Try to understand, I just hate points. I had a duel-point Yamaha TX-500 which I converted to electronic, and I added some better coils. Made a big and lasting difference.
Btw, you do beautiful work.