You so NAILED IT! This game started out with the number one thing was space combat and here we are a decade later and its still not even close IMHO. Its mind blowing this was not the FIRST thing they got setup and working the best way it could be and to be here still arguing about it after all this time is absurd! The idea that I lose my shields and no counter measures when trying to get out of a battle is about as ignorant as it gets!
I really like the idea of all classes being able to punch up one weight class due to maneuverability. But once you move up to heavys and above, DPS will matter when attacking heavies and when heavies are attacking heavier ships. So, mediums can be better at attacking heavies because of DPS and maneuverability compared to lights, but lights can attack mediums because of superior maneuverability. So lights can be a fighter screen for both mediums and heavies. Lights can screen for heavies by getting mediums off of them, and they can screen for mediums by getting other lights off of them. Do you see what I mean. At the beginning of the mm, when it first came out, i sort of thought that would be the case. What do you think I am willing to be called crazy with this? Lol.
As far as interceptors, I think they should have a slow accel or at least a slower accel than lights, so they have to keep their speed up or they are dead. And if they slow down to attack lights, that gives the lights the ability to respond because they can "pounce" on interceptors.
@@Darktidings960 erm no, thats just not how interceptors work period. I can IRL name 2 interceptors that accel in acceleration because thats there given purpose (top speed and acel) ELL arguably the fastest Interceptor of its time and the SR71 Light fighters should have high acceleration at low speeds that is it, they shouldnt be capable of out accelerating interceptor class ships, but they sure as hell can out manevoure them which is where the class differential should come into play. sorry but LFs have had it far too good over the last several years being ##1 and almost everything. they should only be #1 in manevouring considering thats there given purpose/design role.
@@123TheCloop What about letting LFs have high acceleration/maneuverability at low speeds and Interceptors have worse maneuverability/acceleration at low speeds and then the inverse for high speeds? Sort of a yin yang relationship.
@123TheCloop I don't care about it because interceptors don't have 20Gs of accel in real life. The interceptors are meta because you can kite, and no one can touch you. I am not saying the way I am talking about interceptors are the way to go. However, we have to give them weaknesses. Think about WW2 fighters, the BF109 and the Spitfire. The BF109s could outclimb the spitfires, so they could use boom and zoom tactics to engage spitfires. But if they missed or a spitfire was aware of them and caught them in the dive when they got in the thicker air, a spitfire could out-turn them. How do you add stuff like that in space? You must adjust the accel rates because just turning isn't cutting it. The interceptors can stay super fast and engage without ever really endangering their selves
Same sentiment exactly as me, from the feelings about previous iterations to the burnout etc im tired its a rollercoaster ride where its hard to just get off.
SCM just feels like putting a straight jacket on. I finally get it taken off when I boost, only for it to be violently put back on when I release boost. 123
It's not just PVP, half the player base at least play for killing AI, AI PVE missions are the only consistent gameplay and now that has changed as well! PVE ship combat is suffering from Master Modes!
As a non combat player I feel Master Mode is an obnoxious and unpleasent way of complicating simple stuff when you try to go from A to B. If jousting is a problem, then add some DAMN PHYSICS to the game (About time too!!!), giving due Mass to ships. Kinetic energy is the product of 1/2MxV^2 meaning that, as speed increases, good luck trying to change direction out of your velocity vector. An enemy following you would just shoot you up like a fish in a barrel, because you wouldn't be able to dodge any incoming fire, assuming laser shots should be faster then ships. Keeping your energy at moderate levels, on the contrary, would give you the best hope for a gaining the upper hand over your opponent. Instead, ships are still fly around at 30G, totally oblivious of Mass and Acceleration as limiting factors. Yogi is just creating boxes inside boxes to keep players confined inside artificial boundaries, that feels totally made up.
Simplest solution to much of this would be to reduce G limits to something not quite so ridiculously unrealistic. But nobody seems to want that. Yeah, yeah the 'miracle' of artificial gravity. But that has to be the most artificial, magical, and entirely cost free/invisible element of the game.
Finally got in with open eptu waves. Immediately loathed the dueling part. Tried a good bit of it. Squad battles this weekend but I can't help but compare it to Live currently and I enjoy live so much more. At least for dueling.
That's where I'm at with it, the squad battle experience is nice but needs to grow for sure. It's immediately fun but falls off rather quickly and then the dueling experience is just miserable and bland.
I'd be surprised if it's brigaded, but it could be. It's been done in the past, but I am of the opinion majority aren't happy with it at the moment (MM). But they'll come around as it gets further developed into fun I think
Short TTK is usually following a LONG positional struggle in a game like DCS and presumably a real dog fight where you both work hard for positional advantage and then seal the deal with a trigger pull. Since direction of travel and orientation of the ship are so divergent in star citizen (to be expected in 6DOF) there has to be an ability to evade shots, that's the skill that makes it a game. I prefer the idea of a postional struggle followed by a short TTK but I don't see how to deliver that with 6DOF. I think they had it right before tbh, they just needed to take out the counterintuitive stuff like trichord and turning on the 45. I think those things were awesome emergent features of sandbox physics but definitely a problem for a game where not everyone dorks out on that stuff. Not saying MM isn't the right balance overall but they must preserve the flight part of the fight. I also think this is a problem that has arisen because they've sold different classes of ships, and now have to make a flight model that justifies all of their existences. What would make more sense is to make a good flight model and then produce ships that function within that model. There's a reason all fighter jets are really similar IRL. But for obvious financial reasons they now have to put the cart before the horse.
Instead of hard walls on speed of ships the accelerations should be progressively diminishing the faster you go. A nice logarithmic curve would add a lot to aid combat and flight feel.
Agreed. What it all is does not mean much until it is tried in a more organic and varied setting. Even then it won't mean much until we are actually fighting over real objectives and both tactics and strategy come into play.
Personally I think the easiest solution is to delete MM, cap all speeds based on the ships power plant. Shorten the range and projectile speed of weapons based on size. A HH or Capital ship should out range other ships and be dangerous to attack. Give us back tri-cording for pip evasion and keep the firing cone. Create a tutorial system that teaches the dangers of jousting and how to avoid it. And if someone starts jousting you just keep turning with guns on and you will win thus punishing jousting. If they are going to joust punish them coming in and going out.
Nailed it on the head with the comment it's 20 hour flight model. I think the secret sauce for interesting fm is layers of depth. Training wheels mode and unlocked fm. Both having advantage and disadvantage. This is why i preach E:D nailed it with FAon and FAoff modes. ( even tho that model has it's flaws ofc, one being reverski) There is definitely some solid design solution that CIG can take from other games and make it their own twist and improve upon.
Nice to hear about where things are. CIG developers and the community are extremely sensitive to negative feedback so I'm sure they appreciate your kindness and gentleness in your feedback.
I agree with the idea of not encouraging new players from getting in and playing. If what we have in live right now is any indication the main event is going to be a nightmare and I refuse to put my reputation on the line again like I did for 3.18!
MM has stopped me playing, i still dip in on the weekend for a mess about but thats mainly because i like using my sticks and set up, im looking for another game to transfer to, its actually not such a bad thing, im enjoying being away from SC, got sick of the echo chamber and lies.
I think I'd enjoy your takes on spectrum posts, but mainly on well written ones like Yogi's, hot takes wouldn't help much. 3:16 - I agree. some adult explanation would be nice. 4:43 - I think SaltE is adding his bias to the upvotes. I think he thinks 'upvote' means 'fully agree'. I upvoted Yogis post to give positive feedback to a detailed explanation of their outlook on it, so I can form better opinions of MM going forward. I don't fully agree, but I'm limited boolean emotions in spectrum, and I want to keep encouraging devs to speak more on what the hell they are doing. So details go into comments. I think it causes problems for yourself if you read too much into 0 and 1 grouping. 8:17 - Please make that video. I have similar feelings, but couldnt put my thumb on it, but thats mostly because it was mostly on the back burner for me. I was in Live more. 10:00 - 100% agree. not sure why they started changing the weapon ranges at the same time. 21:51 - Im going to borrow this term,. thats exactly how it feels. and it isnt fun because it feels like nothing other than 'shoot the pip' makes any difference. and if I was hit first, well, what hope is there? 29:00 - Very inspiring 38:20 - Dont delete snub fighters, but I think like the hand held rail gun, it's ridiculously compensated for because...I dont know. I dont know why tanks or handheld guns do more damage than large ship weapons with the powerplant larger than the ground vehicle. Why do snubs have the same power behind their gun as light fighters? IMO, I think the Reckoning will be armor, and the taste we got in engineering between the gladius and the A2. Snubs will be put in their place. 38:55 - the fall of the light fighter, the positional fighter, is the best symptom to back up your dogfighting statements. 42:30 - Yes. I dont have a lot of time in PvP. minimal. But i can confidently say that the AI does the same thing each time...and its mostly backstrafing. It it is frustrating how well it works. I also think their flight model is cheat-y, but who knows; they only recently admitted to the AI cheating with detection, aiming, and infinite ammo....not that its a more visible problem. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have trouble believing an Cutlass should be able to backstrafe in sync with a Talons forward strafe. 44:17 - Oh sH*t..I didnt notice that, but maybe that's why. I have my ESP tuning printed on a sticker on my virpils. I copied over my controls to EPTU. I didnt even check this. 48:50 - Redeemr also has 2smaller twinS3 turrets that are positioned decently to accommodate attacking smaller fighters. But the pilot needs to know how to position to make them work, as they are biased to the underside. 1:01:00 - Or many people find things easier to understand if they are placed in only 2 groups, and cant figure out which one to put you in, so they make a bad faith accusation and hope for a yes/no from you so they dont have to think about it. Boolean thinking. 1:01:22 - no. permanent labels are easier. :p Yes, get off twitter.
123! MM needs to be like a music instrument. Some people will get that reference. It's easy to just start off playing jumbled music notes practicing trying to get better, but difficult to master and will always be improving on your skills with no end in sight.
I'd really like to see everyone complaining about "jousting," post some footage of their pre 3.23 gameplay. I bet they're starting their turn after the target has passed them while they are going full speed.
Great video new sub here. If it checks all the boxes and is a good experience for the first 10-20 hours I consider that a win for CIG. They have stated they are not happy with it and will improve it. I think they need to double boost making it more important and adding things like all power to thrusters can add back in a lot of depth. I really like being up close I feel like my shots hit more so with my limited playtime it feels good but definitely needs more work
Yeah, unfortunately at this moment in sc, ill be taking a break. My rig is starting to feel the daily of star citizen and ill have to buy a new one. With everything going on in star citizen (my main game) which i normally play for hours nightly. I cannot justify spending thousands for a new rig for an experience im not sold on. Ill let them tweak it, hopefully i can get a new one. But life is getting pretty rough out here financially. 123. I hope your voice is heard Verg. I agree on most everything your suggesting.
I feel so much less free with MM, and I just play industrial. The C1 flies terribly with MM and struggles to survive attacks with MM. Its just not enjoyable to fly anymore. The 1.22 flight model was very good
@@cardheon6091 the thing about jousting is you can learn to avoid it literally in like an hour if you really want. it's annoying, but jousting IS pilot error.
@@needy3535 the kids need to learn. Not at 1000 ms / MACH 3 x) but 200 ms without inertia, logic physix etc... so weird. The dogfight are better, cinematic ... anyway wait and see
@@TUROCK320 I don't care about cinematics, I care about skill ceilings. you're rarely getting that high in speed anyway, speed control is apart of being a good pilot
I've come to appreciate a lot of what master modes brings to the table but the combat is very dull. I think an easy tuning solution would be to remove the scm/scm boost speed difference to just "scm" and boost just becomes a short and powerful tool for positional jumps in combat and when in nav move boost is less powerful and longer for general use. That way you'll have reasonable combat speeds (what is currently up to boost scm forward) and still have the speed separation of scm/nav mode. o7
I'm not totally sure what you might mean when you're saying tuning wont fix this. I have some hours in and my own gripes with the system but i'm not sure i exactly see what you guys are looking at on that statement. i think i must be missing something under the hood in terms of what the model is allowing, do you have any other videos you'd send me to where you ran through your thoughts in a really granular way on this with the under the hood issues that cuck positional combat? i definitely see that we do have less ability to pop the corkscrew on people and hold orbits for example, rate fights aren't feeling good because i cant wiggle out and so on, but i think i need a visual aid or something like a tac view to really wrap my head around what the old system was and what the new "bubble in a bubble" system is doing now in comparison.
Not gross mismanagement, gross mis leadership. This is all on CR. "If you do not know your destination then no wind is favorable." Jousting is only jousting when it goes on interminably and nobody achieves a combat outcome - disabling or destroying your opponent. Fighting for position and scoring cumulative/sustained damage is not jousting. Making duels (especially mirror duels) better frankly has to be the lowest priority. Go watch fencing duels, most points are scored in an instant. The exchanges that last are rare. That is why they play matches for multiple points. DCS is hard because it simulates the requirement for actual aviation - flying the craft and keeping it airborne - before you can even begin to fight with it. Space flight (especially the silly high G limit SC type) does not represent anything approaching reality so cannot be 'force' simulated. IOW there really is not much limit to rotating around a craft's central axis if you do not try to change the craft's overall vector, something that can never be said for an actual lifting body. Shouldn't ESP causing the nose to 'feel' heavy be described as understeer, not oversteer? Same as understeer in a car - when you turn the wheel but the car just wants to keep plowing forward rather than swing around. Hopefully they get around to more than just weapons, but all the other components. Add some of that depth by allowing people to make choices WITH consequences. Not just 'top of the line' vs lower grades, but actual interplay of components.
I think MM is here for gamepads, consoles and for VR. That's it. To make it easier for casuals sitting on the couch, playing on a big tv with a gamepad. To make it playable on VR in the future too.
123 it'll get good, it'll just be how long it takes. Kinda back to the "it's the perfect point to play other games". If it aint fun, it becomes a chore to fly and sit around waiting for improvements. I've gone back to full on stand-by, keen to play experimentals, but cbf putting the time into improve when I can do other things that are more fun with my time.
How to ruin the flying experience in SC? ... Master Modes. We had a good flying system, with some problems, yes, but it feels good, now we have created more problems with master modes, also we get a poor feel flying our ships, pilot can't be a profession now. PD: They ruin ship races with MM, only Razor and M50 can be fast...
@@Ver9jl problem is. instead of making flight simple, they made us "click" more buttons to make some decent free flight. They introduce alot of stuff with master modes. Some of those i dont really care at all. They are mostly combat related, and i can handle those. But if they make stupid modes where you have to chose beetween shields or weapons go faster or make a "full stop" because you change mode... its just retarded. I do like logic. And this does not make any sense. We do not have simple normal physics on a fucking space sim. Power triangle could make the compromise to control shields/weapons/thrusters. I have seen so many good sugestions on spectrum way more logic and engaging than their ideia of modes. Nothing against you. But i hate master modes and that lamme idea. Hope it burn really fast.
I´m not good at flight combat, I don´t have the hours but even I can see that the combat isn´t in a great state at the moment. I am still pro mastermodes as it is a lot more fun to actually see the thing you´re fighting against instead of zooming by at 2000ms. With that said here is my hot take: As long as backstrafing stays effective you´ll never have an enjoyable "dogfighting" experience. Every armchair ace out there always posts flight manuals about evasive maneuvers and how to counter them but what we have is turrets in space. And turrets in space can always face each other and that´s when it becomes a dps point and klick adventure instead of a flight combat game. Yes it´s "not realistic" but so is the entire concept of "fighters in space". People take issue with the Redeemer exactly because it is a multi crew ship. That should be a force multiplier but right now you need 3 people to be on par with a solo Constellation that has all the firepower in the hands of the pilot all while being more nimble (the Redeemer has the Hammerheads flight characteristics at the moment) - 123.
I'm in the same boat, I was really hype for MM, but after testing it in the PU, some weapons feel super strong and others useless. I feel it's just a DPS race, by who has the most guns on is ship. Size of weapons doesn't matter, only the number of weapons does. The ares got butcher (again) this patch, a size 7 gun can't even sratch a ship, but a ship with 6x size 2 melt everything. Like what is this balancing. And combat feel boring.
At this point, we should just keep Master Modes, but get rid of NAV mode. Raise top Speeds to between 500 and 600 based on the ships. Make boosting only an increase to acceleration. Balance the weapons around the new flight geometry. Done. The 2 modes feel unintuitive and clunky.
@@blitzy8221 i play solo 90% of the time for multiple reason there shoult be auto turret at least or some way to escape... emergency quantum jump or riged self-destruct if aboarded .. idk
MM has made for some of the most bland PVE combat I've seen since the bad old days of space sims. I went from doing fast fun VHRT in a 325a/Hawk, to mostly being able to do LRT in the most boring (slow turret) fashion imaginable. Only in the Hawk right now of course, the 325 has no HUD... maybe the new shaky ship feature flung it away.
I am very worried because I was under the impression that SQ 42 was going to fly like LIVE and not like MM. If SQ 42 runs like MM I will want to blow my brains out.
MM was programmed in SQ404 first, then brought to live in AC then to 3.23. The modifications they make after taking in the feedback of players then will loop back into SQ404 in some ways.
My issue with it is that SQ42 is "feature complete" and then when they port MM across it is obviosly not even close to "Feature complete" so what their saying is essentialy BS. Look at the features in 3.23, how many of them are actually complete. And by complete I mean they need no further work..... I cant htink of any really except maybe the loot function.... maybe. The whole "Polish" issue I dont even think they have enough to actually polish at this point. Having played it from EPTU wave it has felt half done. We will all adapt but when your trying to kil a ship and your guns take longer to reload than the opponents shields take to regenerate its por balance. I stopped following saltemike ages ago due to his random ranting to help his click baity channel.
Problem is, I feel like this was a perfect opportunity to expand on the power triangle and power management systems. What if your max speed and acceleration changed according to the power you gave it rather than just your boost regen. What if your weapon power varied. Would have been so much more elegant than this speed cage
I'm only 12 mins in... as a mostly PvE player, I don't like MM. I don't like the transitions between the 2 main modes. They have reduced the switching time a lot (which seems to anger some of the PvP crowd), but why were 2 modes needed in the first place? I don't get it. As a relatively casual flyer, that's one thing I liked about flying in SC: once you are in your ship, you apply throttle and off you went, to the max speed. No need to press a button so that I can fly faster than 200 m/s, and with my shields still on. A lot of people, in the MM feedback thread, had suggestions on how to achieve the lower speeds CIG wanted for the combat (what they tried to achieve with the lower speeds is, for me, a different topic), without having to press a button to get in a completely different mode. I may have missed that, but I never saw a comment from CIG about that.
It's a bit beyond what I can get done in a UA-cam comment. They need to be hard separated for the health of the game. Maybe "need" is a strong term but they've tried other things and came to realize that players don't respond to suggestion. If you are dogfighting it takes a ton of skill to keep your speed down in a fight. Jousting was sooo common. But then you see AvengerOne slip right in behind a guy so close you can hear him shit himself. Even though those two are circling each other at like 200m/s relative to each other, they are actually spiralling together at 1000m/s in a direction. Avengers wingman is fighting the opposing's wingman in a similar slower spiral, but they're both going 1000m/s in the opposite direction. Both players are avoiding jousting, yet every second they are drifting 2 kilometres further apart. Imagine trying to keep fleet battles going without every formation exploding out violently. Another aspect is the speed limit, as one pair hits the limit they lose the ability to actually get around each other. The new system has a lot of speed limits but you're not hitting a hard limit. You can always save up some boost and catch up/get around on him. In the current model once the target gets going 1200m/s (in 2.5 seconds) there is no force in the game that would let you get ahead of him. Watch footage of pvp battles around like Jumptown and see how fast any cohesion breaks down. Everyone is 200km away from the objective EXTREMELY quickly, and they're all in different directions. Or watch other tournaments and see 20 minute duels where no shots hit and the first guy to run out of fuel loses.
@@vorpalrobot Thanks for taking the time to answer. As mentioned in my post, as a PvE player, it is the artificial implementation (pressing yet another button) that bothers me. About the high speed combat: toward the beginning of the monster MM thread, I had a made a simple suggestion: link your weapons to your speed. Speed above threshold x: weapons are locked, under the threshold, weapons are hot. That would have reduced the combat speed without altering the actual flight model (which, if I understood this video, is actually quite liked by some of the PvP community). I know it would probably would not have fixed everything, but hey, would have been relatively easy to implement and test imo (there is already a hard weapon lock when entering (most of) the armistice zones). As it stands now, I'm not looking forward to the release because, for me, it will be less fun to fly around. And when it comes to going on financing SC for further development, why would I go on doing that when I don't have fun anymore? As opposed to others, my hopium tank is running very low at the moment. :)
@@firebird2914 Honestly don't listen to the doom. The flight model used to be like this and it was fun. There was SCM mode for combat, and CRU was cruise mode with no weapons. It honestly was fun. Master Modes is a little different overall, but its close enough to that old way that I'm not worried about the fun factor.
I think one thing that isn't mentioned that should be mentioned as a massive pro/ exacerbation of a con for PvE players, If somebody pulls you out into your SCM you're going to have a bad time but unless you're hard interdicted by a mantis you are significantly harder to catch for other players. Ultimately it's going to make you a little more upset when pirates come along that are properly equipped, but you're going to have a massive edge on anybody trying to ambush you without interdiction tools due to weapons states changing the way they do. It's a little spooky to lose your shields to go fast Don't get me wrong, but in the situation where somebody has shields and guns while you don't have shields or guns but you do have speed, they just can't keep up with you in my experience so far.
@Ver9jl are we sure that Some fighter pilots are not butt hurt that they are working on getting away from light fighters being able to kill whatever they come across???
@@LordOfFlies yup we all saw the cheese that A1 had to dig up so he could keep killing big ships in his little one. what happens when someone downsizes the s4 guns on a ship to s3 hitscan railguns? what happens when CIG corrects velocity on the rest of the guns to compensate for that error??? what happens when armor comes in & the fighters guns cant pen the armor?
Here is my thought, if this was all developed behind closed doors there could have been 20 versions of flight developments and we would not have cared because we would not have seen it and could not give feedback! But it's open development so we are freaking out because we can see it and try it!!.
Time gate it so you only get feedback from people who put serious time into it? ...Well okay, all can say they're about to a big blast of the opposite when MM enter 3.23. Initial impressions might be more impactful than whether or not it grows on you. We're about to open the flood gates and the people who have put time it are going to represent .007% of the opinions in the community's overall gauge of flight model. This is also a live environment after this feature has been talked about for years. They have a reason to voice their frustrations if everyone expects them to be patient with it and join in on the design process. Obviously I don't know what the general reaction will be.
Snubs shouldn't be deleted but create a smaller size weapon for them and no shields. Interceptors should be fast in a straight line but sluggish as hell in the other axis's with size 1 weapons, they are designed to intercept, they are not a fighter. Smaller ships should have smaller boost tanks and Snubs and interceptors should not have boost period. Increase the boost tanks with the size of the ship and make the boost not accelerate and decelerate instantly. There should be a slower rate of acceleration and defo a longer slow down as you are in space. There should be different values to the boost depending on ship type as i have discussed before & slow down the weapon speeds. I'm no dogfighter and these are only my opinions as to what MAY help. I could be very wrong.
123, I really wish they would unlock master mode iterations from the main dev cycle. Other than that, pretty much agree with ya on this. Snubs should only be good for swarm close to big ships to counter boarding and intercept torps.
CIG already knows the model sucks. They're shipping the model at the lowest speeds possible, we've had the highest speeds and MM will change pretty quickly. I know it's frustrating but to address the problems of what we've had they've had to try a different way and when they dial it in, I'm absolutely sure it will be good. Like Avenger 1 said, all they have to do is raise the speeds to about 500m/s, reduce light fighter weaponry to 1000m and a few other things like with weapon velocity and it will be great. Just let them do their tests in the PU and give your feedback.
Imagine selling people a game where they can travel at incredible speed, then limiting them to 10% of that speed. The current combat-flight model is: fish in a barrel, and all the fish have shotguns.
The constellation should delete the snub and snubs should be focused into racing and have super short flight times; 10-15 minutes. If a snub has guns on them they should be only able to do damage against other snubs, players outside of a vehicle and maybe, ground vehicles. It would be the local defense ship for a duster camp where an arrow or gladius with a good pilot should almost always take out 3 snubs, even player piloted ones. As far as gameplay, the snubs are a niche that they should lean into (racing, in atmosphere only combat). Super high mobility and acceleration but only a 10-15min flight time as it shouldn't hold much fuel and it should burn it faster than anything else. and it should be able to be shredded in a single burst from a vanguard's nose guns. the most frustrating part of the flight model debate is Arena Commander vs. Live. Personally I think the flight model and all ships should be tuned and set for group gameplay in live for the 4.0 more than just Stanton. So a smaller org would likely field 5 gladius and maybe a cutlass/freelancer for some pirating vs. a large org fielding 3 hammerheads, 7 redeemers, a retaliator all fully crewed and 20 hurricanes just to put air superiority on jumptown while having 40+ dudes on the ground with ground vehicles. That's a different balancing philosophy than balancing for something like arena commander modes including the rumored theaters of war.
Will it fix more aspects of flight than it breaks? .. It could. Is flight at a more broken state in its first "public" release? .. Absolutely. Should they have included weapon changes? .. Yikes. That's a lot to chew at the same time. Has Star Citizen's development been mismanaged? .. Obviously. I have no idea what the internal political state of the development heirachy is but the flight model has been going round and round for years. I think Yogi and team are the ones to get it done so I would very much like them to continue and support their vision of Master Modes.
As a mediocre dogfighter, I'd love if the game had more DCS-esque flight than BF. However, I suspect the vast majority would find that boring and too punishing. But considering 6 dof of space combat, it's closer attack helicopter dogfights(?) than planes. It might break immersion for some.
"Egg-shaped VELOCITY space" rather than egg-shaped ACCELERATION space is very concerning. I'd really like to avoid automatically slowing down just because my ship rotated in space. I'm really hoping they'll come up with an acceleration-based solution, especially if it's something that allows maneuvering thrusters to let you dodge while boosting toward the enemy. Something else I'd love to see, which Yogi didn't mention, is projectile range/velocity based on ship or powerplant size. Hammerheads should be able to dominate a wide area and not get sniped by pixel-size fighters kiting it. And slower weapons on fighters would allow for dodging each other's shots in dogfights without allowing them to dodge multicrew turret fire. Appreciate the video, as always +123
I would consider myself a above average player, Clearly 1200+ scm speeds in live were too fast, 200 scm speeds in 3.23 feel too slow. Why not go 350-450 and have boost only last 3-5 sec with a fairly fast recharge rate and see where that lands us? I am so confused why its not even tested. All this talk about Arena Commander being a testing ground to try new things and they are unwilling to try. Maybe we need Jar Jar to cast his vote of no confidence, to get some changes.
I actually have come around to the short spool times as well. I was really against it but truth be told I don't want non combat to be tedious. If you want someone to fight now you have to take a hit and use a dampener. Having to sacrifice a bit to control the engagement is actually fair.
I think I know what the problem is. Look at CIG's first post in the Choose Your Character Screenshot Contest thread on spectrum. Go woke go broke? Do we have time to stop the demoralization of CIG and Star Citizen? This is painful to read: "Clove Tanaka is 32 years old and originally from the Vega system, though they moved to Stanton after the Battle of Vega II to try to make a name for themselves. After trying their hand at several careers, and failing miserably, Clove fell into extreme debt to the local pirate gangs trying to make ends meet. A few run ins with local security and some time spent in Klescher only made things worse, and Nine Tails began to charge Clove high interest rates on what they owed. While they still take the odd contract here and there, they've started making a dent in their dues by becoming a professional Gun Rush player, taking on the top Arena Commander competitors in local tournaments. They've been especially vocal on Spectrum about the decision to put a 4x scope on the C54 SMG."
I love that all the ardent defenders of MM are now walking back their comments. I can't wait for 3.23 so I can gank all the carebears and show them they're even less safe now.
You had good points, but 49:50 you sure sound like you know it better....from DOGFIGHT in DOGFIGHTING game? Could it be that you are in too deep in your own bubble when your experience/know how is about Training Module? AC is not been selling point for SC long time, so why would anyone even care about it? You just made it point again that PvP is toxic, so why would CIG invest money and effort to it?
Live: twitch.tv/ver9jl // Join ver9JL discord for more content: discord.gg/vzABq6AUVd // Join the Shadow Moses (SC Organization) discord: discord.gg/shadowmoses
I do not believe MM can ever be made good but maybe a less bad situation.
I’m afraid it’s going to feel like Star Wars squadrons- no flight feeling
That’s how it feels to me now
You so NAILED IT! This game started out with the number one thing was space combat and here we are a decade later and its still not even close IMHO. Its mind blowing this was not the FIRST thing they got setup and working the best way it could be and to be here still arguing about it after all this time is absurd! The idea that I lose my shields and no counter measures when trying to get out of a battle is about as ignorant as it gets!
MM bored the shit out of me lol after like 6 hours I felt like I was done
It's year 12 and not only flight gets completely redone but also FPS takes a 180°. Its so weird.
To be fair, the FPS changes are great.
I agree with you, hope they take all this in consideration and are brave enough to listen
I watched a crewed constellation die to HRTs 😢
🤣
NPCs are really hard in some situations. They move better, but shoot even better than they move. Almost with laser focus accuracy.
I really like the idea of all classes being able to punch up one weight class due to maneuverability. But once you move up to heavys and above, DPS will matter when attacking heavies and when heavies are attacking heavier ships. So, mediums can be better at attacking heavies because of DPS and maneuverability compared to lights, but lights can attack mediums because of superior maneuverability. So lights can be a fighter screen for both mediums and heavies. Lights can screen for heavies by getting mediums off of them, and they can screen for mediums by getting other lights off of them. Do you see what I mean. At the beginning of the mm, when it first came out, i sort of thought that would be the case. What do you think I am willing to be called crazy with this? Lol.
As far as interceptors, I think they should have a slow accel or at least a slower accel than lights, so they have to keep their speed up or they are dead. And if they slow down to attack lights, that gives the lights the ability to respond because they can "pounce" on interceptors.
@@Darktidings960 erm no, thats just not how interceptors work period. I can IRL name 2 interceptors that accel in acceleration because thats there given purpose (top speed and acel) ELL arguably the fastest Interceptor of its time and the SR71
Light fighters should have high acceleration at low speeds that is it, they shouldnt be capable of out accelerating interceptor class ships, but they sure as hell can out manevoure them which is where the class differential should come into play.
sorry but LFs have had it far too good over the last several years being ##1 and almost everything. they should only be #1 in manevouring considering thats there given purpose/design role.
@@123TheCloop What about letting LFs have high acceleration/maneuverability at low speeds and Interceptors have worse maneuverability/acceleration at low speeds and then the inverse for high speeds? Sort of a yin yang relationship.
@123TheCloop I don't care about it because interceptors don't have 20Gs of accel in real life. The interceptors are meta because you can kite, and no one can touch you. I am not saying the way I am talking about interceptors are the way to go. However, we have to give them weaknesses. Think about WW2 fighters, the BF109 and the Spitfire. The BF109s could outclimb the spitfires, so they could use boom and zoom tactics to engage spitfires. But if they missed or a spitfire was aware of them and caught them in the dive when they got in the thicker air, a spitfire could out-turn them. How do you add stuff like that in space? You must adjust the accel rates because just turning isn't cutting it. The interceptors can stay super fast and engage without ever really endangering their selves
Same sentiment exactly as me, from the feelings about previous iterations to the burnout etc im tired its a rollercoaster ride where its hard to just get off.
Yes exactly!
SCM just feels like putting a straight jacket on. I finally get it taken off when I boost, only for it to be violently put back on when I release boost. 123
It's not just PVP, half the player base at least play for killing AI, AI PVE missions are the only consistent gameplay and now that has changed as well! PVE ship combat is suffering from Master Modes!
Civilian (non combattant) / SoloPlayers SOLOing / PVE players / PvP players profile
Many player's profile budy.
It is a mess
As a non combat player I feel Master Mode is an obnoxious and unpleasent way of complicating simple stuff when you try to go from A to B.
If jousting is a problem, then add some DAMN PHYSICS to the game (About time too!!!), giving due Mass to ships.
Kinetic energy is the product of 1/2MxV^2 meaning that, as speed increases, good luck trying to change direction out of your velocity vector. An enemy following you would just shoot you up like a fish in a barrel, because you wouldn't be able to dodge any incoming fire, assuming laser shots should be faster then ships. Keeping your energy at moderate levels, on the contrary, would give you the best hope for a gaining the upper hand over your opponent.
Instead, ships are still fly around at 30G, totally oblivious of Mass and Acceleration as limiting factors.
Yogi is just creating boxes inside boxes to keep players confined inside artificial boundaries, that feels totally made up.
Why are you copy-pasting this?
Simplest solution to much of this would be to reduce G limits to something not quite so ridiculously unrealistic. But nobody seems to want that. Yeah, yeah the 'miracle' of artificial gravity. But that has to be the most artificial, magical, and entirely cost free/invisible element of the game.
Finally got in with open eptu waves. Immediately loathed the dueling part. Tried a good bit of it. Squad battles this weekend but I can't help but compare it to Live currently and I enjoy live so much more. At least for dueling.
That's where I'm at with it, the squad battle experience is nice but needs to grow for sure. It's immediately fun but falls off rather quickly and then the dueling experience is just miserable and bland.
"Brigaded". ok, evidence? It is possible people just don't like something.
I'd be surprised if it's brigaded, but it could be. It's been done in the past, but I am of the opinion majority aren't happy with it at the moment (MM). But they'll come around as it gets further developed into fun I think
Short TTK is usually following a LONG positional struggle in a game like DCS and presumably a real dog fight where you both work hard for positional advantage and then seal the deal with a trigger pull. Since direction of travel and orientation of the ship are so divergent in star citizen (to be expected in 6DOF) there has to be an ability to evade shots, that's the skill that makes it a game. I prefer the idea of a postional struggle followed by a short TTK but I don't see how to deliver that with 6DOF. I think they had it right before tbh, they just needed to take out the counterintuitive stuff like trichord and turning on the 45. I think those things were awesome emergent features of sandbox physics but definitely a problem for a game where not everyone dorks out on that stuff. Not saying MM isn't the right balance overall but they must preserve the flight part of the fight.
I also think this is a problem that has arisen because they've sold different classes of ships, and now have to make a flight model that justifies all of their existences. What would make more sense is to make a good flight model and then produce ships that function within that model. There's a reason all fighter jets are really similar IRL. But for obvious financial reasons they now have to put the cart before the horse.
LIVE MM felt better too IMHO, I wish we built up from there rather than changing to where we are now; there's still hope tho, time will tell!
Instead of hard walls on speed of ships the accelerations should be progressively diminishing the faster you go. A nice logarithmic curve would add a lot to aid combat and flight feel.
123, can't wait for the first iterations after it releases to the live servers
Agreed. What it all is does not mean much until it is tried in a more organic and varied setting. Even then it won't mean much until we are actually fighting over real objectives and both tactics and strategy come into play.
Me too, I think that's where we'll find out if the direction is good and they can return away from the systems and back to the fun aspects
Personally I think the easiest solution is to delete MM, cap all speeds based on the ships power plant. Shorten the range and projectile speed of weapons based on size. A HH or Capital ship should out range other ships and be dangerous to attack. Give us back tri-cording for pip evasion and keep the firing cone. Create a tutorial system that teaches the dangers of jousting and how to avoid it. And if someone starts jousting you just keep turning with guns on and you will win thus punishing jousting. If they are going to joust punish them coming in and going out.
SC 3.22 Live ship combat > Starfield ship combat > SC 3.23 MM ship combat
SF ship combat is utter s---
Bro I'd rather spend 9 hours straight trying to fuck my own face then fly another minute in star field
Nailed it on the head with the comment it's 20 hour flight model. I think the secret sauce for interesting fm is layers of depth. Training wheels mode and unlocked fm. Both having advantage and disadvantage. This is why i preach E:D nailed it with FAon and FAoff modes. ( even tho that model has it's flaws ofc, one being reverski) There is definitely some solid design solution that CIG can take from other games and make it their own twist and improve upon.
Snub fighters should be weaker than light fighters.
Nice to hear about where things are. CIG developers and the community are extremely sensitive to negative feedback so I'm sure they appreciate your kindness and gentleness in your feedback.
I agree with the idea of not encouraging new players from getting in and playing. If what we have in live right now is any indication the main event is going to be a nightmare and I refuse to put my reputation on the line again like I did for 3.18!
Seems like being undermanned or something being hard is a constant refrain from CIG. With so many devs (1100?) gotta wonder what they are doing
MM has stopped me playing, i still dip in on the weekend for a mess about but thats mainly because i like using my sticks and set up, im looking for another game to transfer to, its actually not such a bad thing, im enjoying being away from SC, got sick of the echo chamber and lies.
I think I'd enjoy your takes on spectrum posts, but mainly on well written ones like Yogi's, hot takes wouldn't help much.
3:16 - I agree. some adult explanation would be nice.
4:43 - I think SaltE is adding his bias to the upvotes. I think he thinks 'upvote' means 'fully agree'. I upvoted Yogis post to give positive feedback to a detailed explanation of their outlook on it, so I can form better opinions of MM going forward. I don't fully agree, but I'm limited boolean emotions in spectrum, and I want to keep encouraging devs to speak more on what the hell they are doing. So details go into comments. I think it causes problems for yourself if you read too much into 0 and 1 grouping.
8:17 - Please make that video. I have similar feelings, but couldnt put my thumb on it, but thats mostly because it was mostly on the back burner for me. I was in Live more.
10:00 - 100% agree. not sure why they started changing the weapon ranges at the same time.
21:51 - Im going to borrow this term,. thats exactly how it feels. and it isnt fun because it feels like nothing other than 'shoot the pip' makes any difference. and if I was hit first, well, what hope is there?
29:00 - Very inspiring
38:20 - Dont delete snub fighters, but I think like the hand held rail gun, it's ridiculously compensated for because...I dont know. I dont know why tanks or handheld guns do more damage than large ship weapons with the powerplant larger than the ground vehicle. Why do snubs have the same power behind their gun as light fighters? IMO, I think the Reckoning will be armor, and the taste we got in engineering between the gladius and the A2. Snubs will be put in their place.
38:55 - the fall of the light fighter, the positional fighter, is the best symptom to back up your dogfighting statements.
42:30 - Yes. I dont have a lot of time in PvP. minimal. But i can confidently say that the AI does the same thing each time...and its mostly backstrafing. It it is frustrating how well it works. I also think their flight model is cheat-y, but who knows; they only recently admitted to the AI cheating with detection, aiming, and infinite ammo....not that its a more visible problem. Maybe I'm wrong, but I have trouble believing an Cutlass should be able to backstrafe in sync with a Talons forward strafe.
44:17 - Oh sH*t..I didnt notice that, but maybe that's why. I have my ESP tuning printed on a sticker on my virpils. I copied over my controls to EPTU. I didnt even check this.
48:50 - Redeemr also has 2smaller twinS3 turrets that are positioned decently to accommodate attacking smaller fighters. But the pilot needs to know how to position to make them work, as they are biased to the underside.
1:01:00 - Or many people find things easier to understand if they are placed in only 2 groups, and cant figure out which one to put you in, so they make a bad faith accusation and hope for a yes/no from you so they dont have to think about it. Boolean thinking.
1:01:22 - no. permanent labels are easier. :p
Yes, get off twitter.
123! MM needs to be like a music instrument. Some people will get that reference. It's easy to just start off playing jumbled music notes practicing trying to get better, but difficult to master and will always be improving on your skills with no end in sight.
I'd really like to see everyone complaining about "jousting," post some footage of their pre 3.23 gameplay. I bet they're starting their turn after the target has passed them while they are going full speed.
Great video new sub here. If it checks all the boxes and is a good experience for the first 10-20 hours I consider that a win for CIG. They have stated they are not happy with it and will improve it. I think they need to double boost making it more important and adding things like all power to thrusters can add back in a lot of depth. I really like being up close I feel like my shots hit more so with my limited playtime it feels good but definitely needs more work
Yeah, unfortunately at this moment in sc, ill be taking a break. My rig is starting to feel the daily of star citizen and ill have to buy a new one. With everything going on in star citizen (my main game) which i normally play for hours nightly. I cannot justify spending thousands for a new rig for an experience im not sold on. Ill let them tweak it, hopefully i can get a new one. But life is getting pretty rough out here financially. 123. I hope your voice is heard Verg. I agree on most everything your suggesting.
I feel so much less free with MM, and I just play industrial. The C1 flies terribly with MM and struggles to survive attacks with MM. Its just not enjoyable to fly anymore.
The 1.22 flight model was very good
The negativity is not unexpected just concerned how CIG react to it, feels as always a long way to go.
Jousting is also mostly gone. Thank god
That's the point of master modes they didn't like the jousting
@@cardheon6091 the thing about jousting is you can learn to avoid it literally in like an hour if you really want. it's annoying, but jousting IS pilot error.
@@needy3535 the kids need to learn. Not at 1000 ms / MACH 3 x) but 200 ms without inertia, logic physix etc... so weird.
The dogfight are better, cinematic ... anyway wait and see
@@TUROCK320 I don't care about cinematics, I care about skill ceilings. you're rarely getting that high in speed anyway, speed control is apart of being a good pilot
@@needy3535 You are talking to an old DCS players. Careful, be respectful 😎
I've come to appreciate a lot of what master modes brings to the table but the combat is very dull. I think an easy tuning solution would be to remove the scm/scm boost speed difference to just "scm" and boost just becomes a short and powerful tool for positional jumps in combat and when in nav move boost is less powerful and longer for general use. That way you'll have reasonable combat speeds (what is currently up to boost scm forward) and still have the speed separation of scm/nav mode. o7
I'm not totally sure what you might mean when you're saying tuning wont fix this. I have some hours in and my own gripes with the system but i'm not sure i exactly see what you guys are looking at on that statement. i think i must be missing something under the hood in terms of what the model is allowing, do you have any other videos you'd send me to where you ran through your thoughts in a really granular way on this with the under the hood issues that cuck positional combat? i definitely see that we do have less ability to pop the corkscrew on people and hold orbits for example, rate fights aren't feeling good because i cant wiggle out and so on, but i think i need a visual aid or something like a tac view to really wrap my head around what the old system was and what the new "bubble in a bubble" system is doing now in comparison.
Not gross mismanagement, gross mis leadership. This is all on CR. "If you do not know your destination then no wind is favorable."
Jousting is only jousting when it goes on interminably and nobody achieves a combat outcome - disabling or destroying your opponent. Fighting for position and scoring cumulative/sustained damage is not jousting.
Making duels (especially mirror duels) better frankly has to be the lowest priority. Go watch fencing duels, most points are scored in an instant. The exchanges that last are rare. That is why they play matches for multiple points.
DCS is hard because it simulates the requirement for actual aviation - flying the craft and keeping it airborne - before you can even begin to fight with it. Space flight (especially the silly high G limit SC type) does not represent anything approaching reality so cannot be 'force' simulated. IOW there really is not much limit to rotating around a craft's central axis if you do not try to change the craft's overall vector, something that can never be said for an actual lifting body.
Shouldn't ESP causing the nose to 'feel' heavy be described as understeer, not oversteer? Same as understeer in a car - when you turn the wheel but the car just wants to keep plowing forward rather than swing around.
Hopefully they get around to more than just weapons, but all the other components. Add some of that depth by allowing people to make choices WITH consequences. Not just 'top of the line' vs lower grades, but actual interplay of components.
I think MM is here for gamepads, consoles and for VR. That's it. To make it easier for casuals sitting on the couch, playing on a big tv with a gamepad. To make it playable on VR in the future too.
123 it'll get good, it'll just be how long it takes. Kinda back to the "it's the perfect point to play other games". If it aint fun, it becomes a chore to fly and sit around waiting for improvements. I've gone back to full on stand-by, keen to play experimentals, but cbf putting the time into improve when I can do other things that are more fun with my time.
Good video. Good insights and analysis. Keep up the good work👍
How to ruin the flying experience in SC? ... Master Modes. We had a good flying system, with some problems, yes, but it feels good, now we have created more problems with master modes, also we get a poor feel flying our ships, pilot can't be a profession now.
PD: They ruin ship races with MM, only Razor and M50 can be fast...
RIP fun dogfights
Miss me that shit of "mode switch" they can place the whole "mode switch" where the sun dont shine.
Agree, account sold, this is beyond gey.
It's actually alot faster now and feels less brutish
@@Ver9jl problem is. instead of making flight simple, they made us "click" more buttons to make some decent free flight.
They introduce alot of stuff with master modes. Some of those i dont really care at all. They are mostly combat related, and i can handle those.
But if they make stupid modes where you have to chose beetween shields or weapons go faster or make a "full stop" because you change mode... its just retarded.
I do like logic. And this does not make any sense. We do not have simple normal physics on a fucking space sim.
Power triangle could make the compromise to control shields/weapons/thrusters. I have seen so many good sugestions on spectrum way more logic and engaging than their ideia of modes.
Nothing against you. But i hate master modes and that lamme idea. Hope it burn really fast.
I´m not good at flight combat, I don´t have the hours but even I can see that the combat isn´t in a great state at the moment. I am still pro mastermodes as it is a lot more fun to actually see the thing you´re fighting against instead of zooming by at 2000ms. With that said here is my hot take:
As long as backstrafing stays effective you´ll never have an enjoyable "dogfighting" experience. Every armchair ace out there always posts flight manuals about evasive maneuvers and how to counter them but what we have is turrets in space. And turrets in space can always face each other and that´s when it becomes a dps point and klick adventure instead of a flight combat game.
Yes it´s "not realistic" but so is the entire concept of "fighters in space".
People take issue with the Redeemer exactly because it is a multi crew ship. That should be a force multiplier but right now you need 3 people to be on par with a solo Constellation that has all the firepower in the hands of the pilot all while being more nimble (the Redeemer has the Hammerheads flight characteristics at the moment) - 123.
I'm in the same boat, I was really hype for MM, but after testing it in the PU, some weapons feel super strong and others useless. I feel it's just a DPS race, by who has the most guns on is ship. Size of weapons doesn't matter, only the number of weapons does. The ares got butcher (again) this patch, a size 7 gun can't even sratch a ship, but a ship with 6x size 2 melt everything. Like what is this balancing. And combat feel boring.
At this point, we should just keep Master Modes, but get rid of NAV mode. Raise top Speeds to between 500 and 600 based on the ships. Make boosting only an increase to acceleration. Balance the weapons around the new flight geometry. Done. The 2 modes feel unintuitive and clunky.
CiG- things will get worse before they get better... wait what?
When it go live .. if i get smoked everytime i want to enjoy space trucking it will be the end of this
Bring turret gunners or escorts , space truckers are the natural prey of pirates.
@@blitzy8221 i play solo 90% of the time for multiple reason there shoult be auto turret at least or some way to escape... emergency quantum jump or riged self-destruct if aboarded .. idk
MM has made for some of the most bland PVE combat I've seen since the bad old days of space sims. I went from doing fast fun VHRT in a 325a/Hawk, to mostly being able to do LRT in the most boring (slow turret) fashion imaginable. Only in the Hawk right now of course, the 325 has no HUD... maybe the new shaky ship feature flung it away.
I am very worried because I was under the impression that SQ 42 was going to fly like LIVE and not like MM. If SQ 42 runs like MM I will want to blow my brains out.
MM was programmed in SQ404 first, then brought to live in AC then to 3.23. The modifications they make after taking in the feedback of players then will loop back into SQ404 in some ways.
I'm no dogfighter and I absolutely hate it lol
My issue with it is that SQ42 is "feature complete" and then when they port MM across it is obviosly not even close to "Feature complete" so what their saying is essentialy BS. Look at the features in 3.23, how many of them are actually complete. And by complete I mean they need no further work..... I cant htink of any really except maybe the loot function.... maybe. The whole "Polish" issue I dont even think they have enough to actually polish at this point. Having played it from EPTU wave it has felt half done. We will all adapt but when your trying to kil a ship and your guns take longer to reload than the opponents shields take to regenerate its por balance. I stopped following saltemike ages ago due to his random ranting to help his click baity channel.
1-2-3. I'm on hopium to. I just believe it will work one day. Hopefully not so far in de future.
Thank god gray zone warfare makes me happy. MM makes me so bored. Hopefully they tweak it.
Snip the snubs weapons
Two-speed system really my only complaint
Problem is, I feel like this was a perfect opportunity to expand on the power triangle and power management systems. What if your max speed and acceleration changed according to the power you gave it rather than just your boost regen. What if your weapon power varied. Would have been so much more elegant than this speed cage
I'm only 12 mins in... as a mostly PvE player, I don't like MM. I don't like the transitions between the 2 main modes. They have reduced the switching time a lot (which seems to anger some of the PvP crowd), but why were 2 modes needed in the first place? I don't get it. As a relatively casual flyer, that's one thing I liked about flying in SC: once you are in your ship, you apply throttle and off you went, to the max speed. No need to press a button so that I can fly faster than 200 m/s, and with my shields still on. A lot of people, in the MM feedback thread, had suggestions on how to achieve the lower speeds CIG wanted for the combat (what they tried to achieve with the lower speeds is, for me, a different topic), without having to press a button to get in a completely different mode. I may have missed that, but I never saw a comment from CIG about that.
It's a bit beyond what I can get done in a UA-cam comment.
They need to be hard separated for the health of the game. Maybe "need" is a strong term but they've tried other things and came to realize that players don't respond to suggestion.
If you are dogfighting it takes a ton of skill to keep your speed down in a fight. Jousting was sooo common. But then you see AvengerOne slip right in behind a guy so close you can hear him shit himself. Even though those two are circling each other at like 200m/s relative to each other, they are actually spiralling together at 1000m/s in a direction. Avengers wingman is fighting the opposing's wingman in a similar slower spiral, but they're both going 1000m/s in the opposite direction.
Both players are avoiding jousting, yet every second they are drifting 2 kilometres further apart. Imagine trying to keep fleet battles going without every formation exploding out violently.
Another aspect is the speed limit, as one pair hits the limit they lose the ability to actually get around each other. The new system has a lot of speed limits but you're not hitting a hard limit. You can always save up some boost and catch up/get around on him. In the current model once the target gets going 1200m/s (in 2.5 seconds) there is no force in the game that would let you get ahead of him.
Watch footage of pvp battles around like Jumptown and see how fast any cohesion breaks down. Everyone is 200km away from the objective EXTREMELY quickly, and they're all in different directions.
Or watch other tournaments and see 20 minute duels where no shots hit and the first guy to run out of fuel loses.
@@vorpalrobotyup exactly
@@vorpalrobot Thanks for taking the time to answer. As mentioned in my post, as a PvE player, it is the artificial implementation (pressing yet another button) that bothers me.
About the high speed combat: toward the beginning of the monster MM thread, I had a made a simple suggestion: link your weapons to your speed. Speed above threshold x: weapons are locked, under the threshold, weapons are hot. That would have reduced the combat speed without altering the actual flight model (which, if I understood this video, is actually quite liked by some of the PvP community). I know it would probably would not have fixed everything, but hey, would have been relatively easy to implement and test imo (there is already a hard weapon lock when entering (most of) the armistice zones).
As it stands now, I'm not looking forward to the release because, for me, it will be less fun to fly around. And when it comes to going on financing SC for further development, why would I go on doing that when I don't have fun anymore? As opposed to others, my hopium tank is running very low at the moment. :)
@@firebird2914 Honestly don't listen to the doom. The flight model used to be like this and it was fun. There was SCM mode for combat, and CRU was cruise mode with no weapons.
It honestly was fun. Master Modes is a little different overall, but its close enough to that old way that I'm not worried about the fun factor.
I think one thing that isn't mentioned that should be mentioned as a massive pro/ exacerbation of a con for PvE players, If somebody pulls you out into your SCM you're going to have a bad time but unless you're hard interdicted by a mantis you are significantly harder to catch for other players. Ultimately it's going to make you a little more upset when pirates come along that are properly equipped, but you're going to have a massive edge on anybody trying to ambush you without interdiction tools due to weapons states changing the way they do. It's a little spooky to lose your shields to go fast Don't get me wrong, but in the situation where somebody has shields and guns while you don't have shields or guns but you do have speed, they just can't keep up with you in my experience so far.
@Ver9jl are we sure that Some fighter pilots are not butt hurt that they are working on getting away from light fighters being able to kill whatever they come across???
Killing what? Multicrew ships? Because thats easier now.
Not even close @@LordOfFlies
@@LordOfFlies man clearly missed the last several years of LFs just dominating every fight because best in class
@@LordOfFlies yup we all saw the cheese that A1 had to dig up so he could keep killing big ships in his little one. what happens when someone downsizes the s4 guns on a ship to s3 hitscan railguns? what happens when CIG corrects velocity on the rest of the guns to compensate for that error??? what happens when armor comes in & the fighters guns cant pen the armor?
@@LordOfFlies getting closer to that day not farther away
Algo bump
Here is my thought, if this was all developed behind closed doors there could have been 20 versions of flight developments and we would not have cared because we would not have seen it and could not give feedback! But it's open development so we are freaking out because we can see it and try it!!.
Time gate it so you only get feedback from people who put serious time into it? ...Well okay, all can say they're about to a big blast of the opposite when MM enter 3.23. Initial impressions might be more impactful than whether or not it grows on you.
We're about to open the flood gates and the people who have put time it are going to represent .007% of the opinions in the community's overall gauge of flight model. This is also a live environment after this feature has been talked about for years. They have a reason to voice their frustrations if everyone expects them to be patient with it and join in on the design process.
Obviously I don't know what the general reaction will be.
123 gang!
Snubs shouldn't be deleted but create a smaller size weapon for them and no shields. Interceptors should be fast in a straight line but sluggish as hell in the other axis's with size 1 weapons, they are designed to intercept, they are not a fighter. Smaller ships should have smaller boost tanks and Snubs and interceptors should not have boost period. Increase the boost tanks with the size of the ship and make the boost not accelerate and decelerate instantly.
There should be a slower rate of acceleration and defo a longer slow down as you are in space. There should be different values to the boost depending on ship type as i have discussed before & slow down the weapon speeds.
I'm no dogfighter and these are only my opinions as to what MAY help.
I could be very wrong.
123, I really wish they would unlock master mode iterations from the main dev cycle.
Other than that, pretty much agree with ya on this.
Snubs should only be good for swarm close to big ships to counter boarding and intercept torps.
CIG already knows the model sucks. They're shipping the model at the lowest speeds possible, we've had the highest speeds and MM will change pretty quickly. I know it's frustrating but to address the problems of what we've had they've had to try a different way and when they dial it in, I'm absolutely sure it will be good. Like Avenger 1 said, all they have to do is raise the speeds to about 500m/s, reduce light fighter weaponry to 1000m and a few other things like with weapon velocity and it will be great. Just let them do their tests in the PU and give your feedback.
Imagine selling people a game where they can travel at incredible speed, then limiting them to 10% of that speed. The current combat-flight model is: fish in a barrel, and all the fish have shotguns.
MM is a change that will help new players. It is needed for the game. There has to be a compromise at all skill levels.
The Redeemer has worse handling then the HH right now.
The constellation should delete the snub and snubs should be focused into racing and have super short flight times; 10-15 minutes. If a snub has guns on them they should be only able to do damage against other snubs, players outside of a vehicle and maybe, ground vehicles. It would be the local defense ship for a duster camp where an arrow or gladius with a good pilot should almost always take out 3 snubs, even player piloted ones. As far as gameplay, the snubs are a niche that they should lean into (racing, in atmosphere only combat). Super high mobility and acceleration but only a 10-15min flight time as it shouldn't hold much fuel and it should burn it faster than anything else. and it should be able to be shredded in a single burst from a vanguard's nose guns.
the most frustrating part of the flight model debate is Arena Commander vs. Live. Personally I think the flight model and all ships should be tuned and set for group gameplay in live for the 4.0 more than just Stanton. So a smaller org would likely field 5 gladius and maybe a cutlass/freelancer for some pirating vs. a large org fielding 3 hammerheads, 7 redeemers, a retaliator all fully crewed and 20 hurricanes just to put air superiority on jumptown while having 40+ dudes on the ground with ground vehicles. That's a different balancing philosophy than balancing for something like arena commander modes including the rumored theaters of war.
Will it fix more aspects of flight than it breaks? .. It could.
Is flight at a more broken state in its first "public" release? .. Absolutely.
Should they have included weapon changes? .. Yikes. That's a lot to chew at the same time.
Has Star Citizen's development been mismanaged? .. Obviously. I have no idea what the internal political state of the development heirachy is but the flight model has been going round and round for years. I think Yogi and team are the ones to get it done so I would very much like them to continue and support their vision of Master Modes.
As a mediocre dogfighter, I'd love if the game had more DCS-esque flight than BF. However, I suspect the vast majority would find that boring and too punishing.
But considering 6 dof of space combat, it's closer attack helicopter dogfights(?) than planes. It might break immersion for some.
Here for the algo
"Egg-shaped VELOCITY space" rather than egg-shaped ACCELERATION space is very concerning. I'd really like to avoid automatically slowing down just because my ship rotated in space. I'm really hoping they'll come up with an acceleration-based solution, especially if it's something that allows maneuvering thrusters to let you dodge while boosting toward the enemy.
Something else I'd love to see, which Yogi didn't mention, is projectile range/velocity based on ship or powerplant size. Hammerheads should be able to dominate a wide area and not get sniped by pixel-size fighters kiting it. And slower weapons on fighters would allow for dodging each other's shots in dogfights without allowing them to dodge multicrew turret fire. Appreciate the video, as always +123
I would consider myself a above average player, Clearly 1200+ scm speeds in live were too fast, 200 scm speeds in 3.23 feel too slow. Why not go 350-450 and have boost only last 3-5 sec with a fairly fast recharge rate and see where that lands us? I am so confused why its not even tested. All this talk about Arena Commander being a testing ground to try new things and they are unwilling to try. Maybe we need Jar Jar to cast his vote of no confidence, to get some changes.
mastermode bad. very bad....
Sorry but react of react is overkill for me.
💯
Honestly there are a ton of people that like master modes. They are just playing the game and don't bother with spectrum.
Un deux trois
I think the reason there's such a divide is that the people that like it play the PU where the ones that don't are more in 1v1 duels in AC.
I actually have come around to the short spool times as well. I was really against it but truth be told I don't want non combat to be tedious. If you want someone to fight now you have to take a hit and use a dampener. Having to sacrifice a bit to control the engagement is actually fair.
That's a big part of it. The vocal minority on both sides of any issue is what gets attention.
Early squad, reporting in o7
Hell yeah brother
@Ver9jl a perfect way to start off my work day
@@schlagzahne6741 appreciate you homie
Maybe yogurt should spend less time on woke agenda and more time on game development.
I think I know what the problem is. Look at CIG's first post in the Choose Your Character Screenshot Contest thread on spectrum. Go woke go broke? Do we have time to stop the demoralization of CIG and Star Citizen?
This is painful to read:
"Clove Tanaka is 32 years old and originally from the Vega system, though they moved to Stanton after the Battle of Vega II to try to make a name for themselves. After trying their hand at several careers, and failing miserably, Clove fell into extreme debt to the local pirate gangs trying to make ends meet. A few run ins with local security and some time spent in Klescher only made things worse, and Nine Tails began to charge Clove high interest rates on what they owed. While they still take the odd contract here and there, they've started making a dent in their dues by becoming a professional Gun Rush player, taking on the top Arena Commander competitors in local tournaments. They've been especially vocal on Spectrum about the decision to put a 4x scope on the C54 SMG."
One hour later... 😂
123
o7
I love that all the ardent defenders of MM are now walking back their comments. I can't wait for 3.23 so I can gank all the carebears and show them they're even less safe now.
123 o7
You had good points, but 49:50 you sure sound like you know it better....from DOGFIGHT in DOGFIGHTING game?
Could it be that you are in too deep in your own bubble when your experience/know how is about Training Module?
AC is not been selling point for SC long time, so why would anyone even care about it?
You just made it point again that PvP is toxic, so why would CIG invest money and effort to it?
Are you seriously reacting to some else’s reacting video? You people are so damn lazy now.
Cig will loose alot of money on this crap
They won't. People in this community are moronic and the space dads will keep throwing money at it.
123
123
123