10 Mistakes Beginner Tuners Make
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- Опубліковано 23 тра 2024
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This might be the most relatable video I've ever seen.
I’d never heard of the Dunning Kruger Effect until being involved in the performance automotive industry. This is the third time I’ve heard someone in this industry bring it up. And It’s so true. Kind of a situation of you don’t know what you don’t know. And maybe at some you realize you just barely skimmed the surface and have so much more to learn.
Dude I totally remember those posts on Honda-tech back in the day with the collapsed flex joint. Pretty good power for a 1.5” exhaust. Also this class was the best thing I did to make my cars run great. They are so good now.
As a self taught "tuner"(id barely call myself that)...i totally agree. I figured out my car pretty well. Built and tuned another car with a similar setup and same ecu and that went well. Then a friend needed some help with a different car and different ecu. Had nasty tip lean stumble and poor starting qualities (both hot and cold). I told him Id give it a go but no charge. After about a day of messing with it. Car starts well and now is smooth as butter on transition. The alarming thing is its been remote tuned and it had a pretty flat and aggressive timing table. I felt like the trigger offset was wrong. However I didnt pry and figured leave that problem for the remote tuner. I just handled the bit I was asked to do.
#5 is why you need #2. Im the weirdo that reads everything first but dont understand it until im doing it.
thank you Joe!
Great info
Great video
Everyone is telling me my sbf turbo engine on e85 should be idling at 11.? Afr. But the engine will surge badly at that afr. It really likes to be at 13.4 or so. They all think I'm nuts but won't come over and see how it is. Different set ups want different things I think.
Would that be e85 or gas scale afr?
If it's e85 scale 11. would be lean and 13.4 would be very lean.
If it's gas scale 11. would be very rich and 13.4 would be very normal for idle.
@@espenschjelderup426 It's gas scale. If you're right that explains it all. Thanks
@@mustangal8534 I'm by no means a professional tuner.
But if I can give one advice for tuning fuel for idle, ignoring anything having to do with emmisions, idle is one of the times you should ignore a certain afr target.
Tune the idle to get the best idle.
The first car I tuned, one of mye own cars, needed a very rich idle to not surge. The leanest it liked was high 12.
Most of cars I have tuned has liked idle afr between 13 and 14, and one as lean as 15.
I have also come across a few widebands that have been more than 2 point off, in the dangerous direction.
So, you may have just figured out the “new” trend is “tuner” cars, adjusting all fueling to match 14.7:1.
AFR is NOT the number you care about at all. You use it as a starting point to get the to the end result.
I have a bike that has been properly tuned, at one point in the map my “AFR” is so rich it should not even run, yet, at that point the engine runs like a r**ed ape. At another point it is “AFR” lean yet it runs cleaner and more power…..
AFR is the absolute perfect estimate ratio for perfect combustion……but, at what temp? What humidity?, what kind of fuel?
Besides the “AFR” is like oil life……it only is good in perfect conditions.
A flat AFR table means you are not “tuning” you are a joke.
The end result of smooth, deliverable, and usable power is WAY faster than max power with huge hills and valleys even if the usable power is less than the peak power. You don’t need to choose the AFR, if you read the information correctly the machine will tell you what it wants. You set there, run again while making adjustments while running at that point.
Biggest thing everyone needs to understand, your mods need to be fully disclosed to the tuner, some mods will make you go backwards. Understand the system.
Use lambda.. so much easier and nothing changes... just get fueling to the lambda you got set
Thanks for another great video
Nice video Joe! Humor and info has always been top notch!
Great video Joe! I've learned so much from your videos over the last 4 months. Huge respect for what you're doing. Keep it up 👌
I love how Honda's, in one way or another often times became the springboard for many different automotive professionals..Rather it was from tuning OBD1 grassroots software or later, or skills gained like meticulous welding for turbokits designed a decade or more ago often perfected from fabrication around Honda's, while in many cases it was the S#itbox many were comfortable cutting their teeth with (as a mind of course, not saying they're all s#itboxes)..
#7 - I've learnt from this that looking for missing power in ignition timing normally ends in tears. I had a car once that just wasn't making the power it should have and I cracked a ring land through looking for missing power in timing. Turned out the throttle wasn't opening all the way; it was turbocharged, I wasn't looking at the pre-throttle pressure.
#8 - choppy cams that misfire at idle - if you try to chase a normal target lambda with an O2 sensor you're going to end up rich.
In my experience of tuning my own turbo Honda Civic, it is very crucial to know all the adjustments, and what they do especially with timing.
If you have a fully built engine, it can take a little bit more abuse if your tuning is not on point however, if your turbo in a stock bottom end with rods like spaghetti, you really need to take small steps and understand all the settings and options in your tuning software in order to help Prolong the engines life. That being said, my first mistake was turning on the factory oxygen sensor, which I find out now it’s about one AFR point leaner. So I was turning to 11.5 AFR but in reality it was 12.5 AFR. That a FR plus with sub optimal, timing ramp in after shifting and a duty cycle close to 90-95% was the reason I bent a rod in my motor.
Since rebuilding my engine now, I have increased my AFR on the factory oxygen sensor to read 10.2 - 10.5 afr and. Actually dove into timing tables and smoothed them out and lowered timing where my max torque would be to help preserve the stock rods. Car feels much smoother and now pairing it with E85 I know it’s got extra security. Tuning is a process. It takes time to understand the engine and the ways you can tonight with the software that you are using.
I think everyone can have some degree of knowledge tuning in general, but when it comes down to specific engines are specific cars or specific engine management software, a person has to be super skilled in that one area to get the best results.
You are explaining perfectly why i want to ship my ride to you. I know my limitations. Unfortunate.
I can't afford that. So.. it is what it is. 🤷 hope i can find someone half as good, twice as close to Northern arkansas. 🤞
#1 when you show up for a dyno tune, have a return fuel system that can keep up with the boost reference. Folks show up with dropping fuel pressure under a load/boost and expect an accurate tune. These are folks to turn away
Good video. I want to get into tuning, no tuner in my town but just have a lot of learning to do. Trying to but it is pretty hard without having someone that knows to show me in real life.
Tuning does require all senses, plus maybe a few more you didn't know you had. Remote tuning with performance aftermarket is a fools errand. Another great informative video. Thanks Joe.
If I had a car that needed and out of expected open loop AFR or 4° of unexpected timing, I would definitely check The hardware one more time.
Like check the fuel pressure or check the base timing.
Yes, that sort of proves my point. The 4 degree timing car has all fixed timing and no timing marks etc so it’s out of your control. Then you start to question fuel quality etc.
The point is you have to test it all because stuff like that happens for multiple different reasons
Smart people know they have limits .Dump people think they are unlimited. Thanks Joe 👍💯🇺🇲😁🥩🐕🦺
Great video sir! I've also learned after almost 20 years of efi tuning that I am a huge fan of mechanical gauges for trouble shooting! I tuned a friend's 416ci LSX and the map sensor value kept dropping with rpm. We ran a mechanical vacuum gauge and the same issue appeared! As it turns out, his intake elbow was collapsing with RPM...
a vacuum gauge can tell you so much of whats going on with your motor. i have a vacuum gauge mounted in a gauge bezel in both my motorcycle a truck builds. people always wonder why when they see it.
I'm an old school gen Xer and I'd love to learn tuning it is the biggest fear of messing with EFI it makes me think I'll just go carb, I have a 95 mustang gt and well the ECU isn't really an easy option but I have reservations about getting a mega squirt I'm afraid I will be lost and get it all jacked up and be worse off and a dyno are not near my area so it would mostly be street tuning, I was thinking maybe tuning just the ignition on a digital msd box on my carburated pickup may be a good way to dip my toes into tuning. But if I knew what I was doing I wouldn't be worried about modding my 5.0 plus it would be nice to try n tweek some extra power with my stock computer friendly mods of exhaust and intake seems where the 5.0HO is so underwhelming anything gained is more than welcome.
My 2003 6.0-liter stock runs great at idle and cruising or rolling down the street. The one thing my tuner and I can't figure out is that it bogs at WOT. I even changed throttle bodies just to check, and it still does the same thing. The next thing I can think of is the external pressure regulator locking up at WOT. I have to let go of the pedal and press again, and it takes off like a wild horse. I have a Holley sniper tank with an in-tank pump and filter. It is return style by the way. The regulator is just an eBay brand but I can't see the pressure at WOT because I am driving off course. What do you think Joe?
hi, a great video. You need at least 12 inches of pipe after the 02 sensor. Do the holley ECUs show the knock sensor - when used on cars with O.E sensors?
New high temp wide band o2 sensors are available for a while. The oem turbo cars need to monitor the exhaust to better control emissions. But the side effects of that is we get to have a tighter o2 placement to the ports or turbos. Check them out.
My camed n/a sbc afr at idle sometimes go as high as 21., but idles good at around 900rpm and drives alot better then before i made adjustments to the carb. Could exhaust reversion effect afr at idle? Or maybe i got a huge exhaust leak somewhere, my headers ar wrapped and it's loud as shit even with mufflers.
Im dealing with issues on a gen7 BBC (PSI 8.8/535cubes) that has a 58 tooth crank reluctor and 1x cam sensor. Both are fixed in place (OEM) and not adjustable. I am running the termX system and not sure whether to set the custom ignition at 58x or 60-2. I have/had it running using custom settings at 58x crank and 1-pulse cam, with inconsistent results. (See my latest videos) Sometimes it runs and idles great, other times it goes flakey and loses the crank signal. I've tried multiple sensors and got same results. The sensor is located in the stock 8.1/496 location in the back of the block, bellhousing area on driver side about 10-11 O'clock position. Cam sensor is in the timing cover. Im guessing the crank reference angle is incorrect when I have it set at stock LS location/58x in the drop down menu and its causing errors, since the LS sensor is on passenger side of block. Unfortunately this tech is a little beyond my skillset, as i grew up on carburetors and points distributors. Any advice ? I have a Holley 12-1 crank trigger kit on order and hope that solves my problem.
Your perspective is dialed brother!👊🏻 If you’re going to tune something then tune it right!💪🏻 Basics and go from there is gold. I don’t have time to help all the young bucks I’ve had as apprentices, and actually care about. I’ll be sharing your thoughts with them and watching your stuff myself. ⚙️🧠 Great find this morning.🔥
My car swings between 13.5 and 15.5 afr at idle and cruise, even with small adjustments. Its fine at WOT and has no intake or exhaust leaks. Anything I missed checking?
#1 😂 becoming brain dead when getting in the car. That is sooo true 👍
So I have the too much information and I’m not sure how to proceed, I have read everything, watched all your videos, purchased the tune the trilogy and I am frozen with fear that I will f it up, so this video helped, I am going to send it to you, kidding, I am going to try it in bite sized pieces and see
watch some gale banks videos on density thats a big part of getting it to run consistently
also. .dont take their word for it. inspect what you expect. start from the beginning if touching it for the first time. ask then verify. like is the battery good and hooked up properly etc.. basic shit. dont get me started on wiring if they touched it...
Could you do a video on the Holley 6l80 controller? Does tune the trilogy cover using it?
Everything I’ve seen regarding that controller is people not being able to get it to work so far. We have not gotten into the trans stuff in t3 yet. Probably be one of the next things we do cover though
That’s unfortunate to hear. I just dumped a bunch of money into a 6l80 . Guess I should’ve just got a 4l80
@@matwatts5909 don’t know if it’s user error or hardware or software or what. I’m sure it wil get sorted
Thanks Joe. Soon as I start assembling truck I’m gonna purchase t3.
I’ve been making tuning mistakes for years
M2🏁😊
Been chasing a miss for the past three months turns out I selected the wrong map sensor lol
MAKE LAMBDA STANDARD WITH TUNING!
Rookie Mistake #11: choosing the Bosch wideband instead of the NTK wideband
never had to use a wideband but, is there a reason for this??
why?
Doesn’t Bosch make NTK?
Omfg. My OP dude needs to go to school for a bit. Bosch is not junk, it's in almost every car. A simple google for what patents they have would adjust your top end....
1: smoke a bowl and get your head right before you begin. 2: Learn to tune on LS turbo cars. 3: Swing for the fences, but only after two strikes. 4: Your Butt dyno is full of shit.
5: We must master the stuff in order to master the tune. 6: Hit the target. 12.4 for everyone!!! 7: No flex bellows. EVER. 8: O2 sensors are lying POS use the level of eye burn and CO2 intoxication instead. 9: Data is your friend, not finding it sucks! 10: Charge more than 50 dollars for tuning make them think you know what's going on even when you don't!
Number 11 and most important!! Purchase Tune the Trilogy series from Joe and become a real tuner!
Must learn to tune. They charge 7-800$ they fix up the fuel an cam angles. Drives like crap cause most want you in an out. So closed loop they don't really touch. You ain't there for 20 runs 2-3 minimum there doing 50-60% of a tune.
Big part of why i spend all of my time teaching others how to do it themselves haha
When you bring your car to the tuner , make sure there is gas in it
biggest mistake is not listening to greg banish and learning to calibrate instead of tuning
I actually bought one of his trainings years and years ago and it was nothing but an advertisement to buy his other trainings. I was pretty disappointed.
i have the gm series and his books of all the tuning courses and his nternet vidys ive seen hes the only one that i havent seen blatantly wrong info
@@bill2178 considering what he does for a living I’d hope it’s not wrong haha. Seems like a super smart guy
It must be horrifying to tune a car that ends up melting down from the tune, you could get yourself into some legal problems, when someone has 20k in there engine and it ends up with bunch of melted pistons and scored cylinders Lucy you got some splaining to doooo....
Tuning for an AFR is the biggest rookie mistake that nearly all the “pros” make. The next is building maps for people to “flash” their ecu by mail and charging for this.
Another mistake is to remove things like o2 sensors and thing that is how you tune, run you tuning using the sensors the car came with. The o2 sensors will not cause the ecu to revert, it is not that smart. It only says hey, more fuel or less fuel your computer adjusts within the map loaded.
Mods, understand the system before you drop money.