Isn't the Christian Church the Best Proof Against God? Tim Keller at Veritas [5 of 11]
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- Опубліковано 7 жов 2024
- university events • life's hardest questions • relevance of Jesus Christ
www.veritas.org...
Don't the horrendous actions of the Christian church belie the truth of its claims? Martin Bashir poses some tough questions to Tim Keller at The Veritas Forum at Columbia University.
Over the past two decades, The Veritas Forum has been hosting vibrant discussions on life's hardest questions and engaging the world's leading colleges and universities with Christian perspectives and the relevance of Jesus. Learn more at www.veritas.org, with upcoming events and over 600 pieces of media on topics including science, philosophy, music, business, medicine, and more!
When Bashir asks, "How much more time do you need?" I would answer back something like "it starts over every generation". We are all re-learning the same mistakes over and over again from generation to generation, religious or not.
Martin Bashir's bringing up of N. Ireland is a misunderstanding of history. While the Irish Catholic and Protestant divide started somewhat of a religious nature, it was politics that perpetuated it. Unfortunately, the labels "Catholic" and "Protestant" stuck to the Nationalists and the Unionists respectively because they were the original religious demographics. It is easy to use it prima facie to trash Christiainity but that's really not what the whole N. Ireland conflict is about.
Keat Png amen man! You da man!
In fact it goes all the way back to King Henry VIII
I did not know this. Thanks for clarifying it.
Great answer for Tim. He's said it himself in other places, but I'd also add that sin still affects even the saved and common grace keeps the rest of humanity from being as sour as it could be.
The actions of Christians is proof of God's word. That we are all sinners and all fallen and when we try to do things on our own we fail to do so. That's why we don't judge Christianity by the acts of man. You don't judge God on the acts of man. You judge Christianity by looking at the foundation.
How much time do we need? We will be fallen until the return of Jesus.
Every great movement begins when the founder knows God. Every great movement falls apart when the movement only knows the founder
A great, succinct explanation!
Best comment EVER 💓💓💓
I'm starting to become a Tim Keller fan
Bruh I left this comment six years ago.
And whatever Tim Keller may be he's certainly not a heretic, not by any standard that means anything.
@@PolarBear1192 six years later... mad respect lol
The argument put forward for Northern Ireland is utterly baffling and very poor indeed.
Those on opposite sides may well have been Catholic / Protestant - but the war was mostly political as one side wanted a united Ireland and the other wanted Northern Ireland to remain British.
Proof of this can be found by the very many Protestants who fought on the so-called "Catholic" side which never was a Catholic side, but more of a Nationalist / Republican side who just happened to be mostly Catholic.
And don't forget the role played by the British Govt either.
What we need is not less religion, but true Christianity. Well said!
He really could have argued this better. I really think the main reason there is such confusion in this country in particular is that there are millions of people who call themselves Christians who will one day stand before God and:
"Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’"
Matthew 7:21-23
roblakov Catholic and never seen God in my life
Tim keller is the man
Wow, I love this explanation. You are truly gifted by God!
The fighting in northern Ireland was hardly over dogmatic religious issues. It is purely political and religious differences are incidental.
Well said. Christianity is defined as described in the New Testament of the life of Jesus Christ. The abolition of slavery was Christian based. Martin Luther King used Biblical passages and the true definition of Christianity to resist discrimination. Martin Luther used biblical Christianity to write his 99 thesis to oppose the catholic church in its corrupt practices.
You are kidding right? From the new Testament....and this is just a few gems(there are hundreds more).
Ephesians 6:5-8 (NASB): 5Slaves,
be obedient to those who are your masters according to the flesh, with
fear and trembling, in the sincerity of your heart, as to Christ; 6not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. 7With good will render service, as to the Lord, and not to men, 8knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will receive back from the Lord, whether slave or free.
Christian slaves were told to obey their masters "for the sake of the cause" and be especially obedient to Christian masters:
1 Timothy 6:1-2 (NASB): 1All
who are under the yoke as slaves are to regard their own masters as
worthy of all honor so that the name of God and our doctrine will not be
spoken against. 2Those who have believers as
their masters must not be disrespectful to them because they are
brethren, but must serve them all the more, because those who partake of
the benefit are believers and beloved. Teach and preach these
principles.
There are instructions for Christian slave owners to treat their slaves well.
Ephesians 6:9 (NASB): 9And
masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing
that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no
partiality with Him.
Colossians 4:1 (NASB) 1Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven.[6]
One passage often cited by apologists as supposed evidence for New Testament condemnation of slavery is
1 Timothy 1:10. However, as the King James version accurately translates, this condemnation is of "men stealers" (Greek: andrapodistais),[7]
i.e. slave raiders who kidnapped and sold people as slaves, not slave
traders or slave holders in general. So Paul only singled out slave
raiders to be considered "lawless and rebellious," and to be categorized
with murderers, homosexuals, liars and oath breakers.
The rather bland admonishment to slave masters by Paul is more
than balanced by the demands for absolute obedience made of slaves. It
is also rather telling that the masters are likened to God and Jesus,
while the masters are simply told that they have a higher lord. So much
for Jesus as the embodiment of the underdog - Paul could have pointed to
Jesus' imprisonment and death as a cautionary tale to slave masters
that even humble(d) characters can be important.[8]
Before the apologist plays the "but Jesus didn't condone slavery"-card, following all these Pauline examples, try reading Matthew 18:25,
where Jesus uses slaves in a parable and has no qualms about
recommending that not only a slave but also his wife and family be sold,
while in other parables Jesus recommends that disobedient slaves should
be beaten (Luke 12:47) or even killed
Funny how christians haven't even studied their fairytale.
I hear you, I imagine the Christian priority of displaying the gospel in your circumstances (e.g. slavery, married/unmarried) seems foolish to you.
Yet you forget that the New Testament sets slaves on an even interpersonal playing field spiritually with slave owners. Therefore anything that the Bible says about someone's interpersonal relationships between free people also applies to interpersonal relationships between masters and slaves. Consider Philippians 2 " Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross." Php 2:3-8.
This radical message points to Jesus as an example of someone who in spite of deserving ultimate status as part of the Godhead, humbles himself and considers the interests of other people who clearly have less status than Him. If more people in power heeded Paul's command here many evils of this world would be overturned.
+Stiritup you are kidding right? The anachronistic fallacy? A favorite of those not fortunate enough to have 1 college history class, or 1 college philosophy class. This is as bad as Basheer defining the war in Ireland as the epitome of Christianity. Nice straw man defining the worst actors as central. More logic training, less propaganda next time.
This idea is very tempting, to label self-proclaimed Christians that we don't like as false Christians. However, we are not the Judge of all the earth and are therefore unable to distinguish true and false Christians. We can distinguish between good and bad Christians - those who live like Christ and those who don't. We just can't judge their heart or know their relationship with Christ. I'm a Christian and I still sin, often rebelliously. All I can do is fall at Christ's feet.
Catholics and protestants were not killing each other because of a difference of faith no more than Palestinians and Israelis are, its to do with foreign occupation.
I agree. In eastern asia (China Korea Japan etc) we had tons of war without faith based religion. Had we had such religion, the same war would have broke out in the name of religion. Most religious wars are just using the name of the religion to initiate war for their own profit.
Our little town in California has a Christian missionary from Haiti whose business provides caregivers to our community. I was also interested in the anthropologists who come back to the USA as shaman.
If there wasnt a God, there wouldn't be us. I you think deeply, what created life? God did. What caused the energy to blow? God did. I now rest my case.
This was a great talk in its entirety.
At Redeemer an Elder admitted the community will not assist a person in need of assistance due to "low status." The cold-heartedness at Keller's own church toward the newcomer is stunning. There is no training at these churches in how to obey the Great Commandment.
It's hard to manifest itself in any functional form because 1. This is not the kingdom of God, this world is ruled by satan, thus any establishment is therefore corrupt, and 2. Only few will truely find Yeshua. Most of The billions that "follow" Him do not take the narrow gate.
Yes, wish he explained this point
Profound rebuttal of the well worn argument critical of behavior of so called Christians.
1 in a hundred will read the Bible. 99 in a hundred will read the Christian
Remember there was Good Samaritans before Christianity
The fighting over religion in the middle east isn't about religion, it's about crazy and irrational people doing crazy and irrational things in the name of religion
Same thing.
Religion isn't directly about God at all.
Religion is a social construct based on human ideas about God.
That part about Christianity tending to go to sleep when it gets in bed with power, but also the part that Christianity has self-correction...and tends to do better the margins
the camera man is so distracting I can't hardly pay attention
Good dialogue….. but who is this camera man 🤣
Hallelujah
You've got it.
The moderator's assumption here (about the bad behavior of Christians) should have been better challenged by Keller. First, not everyone who is raised Christian is a "Christian" (i.e. a person who, minimally, prays daily and goes to church at least once a week). So if you filter out the others you have a much smaller data set, and definitely one in which the participants are more fully living the Christian message. Second, he could have challenged the moderator by asking him to compare the behavior of Christians to those of non-believers.There is literally no comparison in terms of the historical atrocities committed by the latter.
Great stuff!
Yes, that's why thousands are being sold world wide over decades for restaurants and wine bars.
Without a doubt religion has been used as a tool to rally support and condemn opponents - but is the North Ireland conflict purely religious? Are people fighting over religious doctrine? Or is the conflict more of a political nature, like who has authority to govern North Ireland: The British government or the Irish government? Regardless, Tim Keller's position still stands - If Christ loved us enough to die for us while we were still his enemies, we should love our enemies as well.
If you really get in touch with the teachings of Jesus you don't need Christianity at all.
Religion as practiced never reaches its ideal.
The time for religion is over.
Yes, when we were in the Sudan doing our dastardly religious deeds bringing food and medicine to refugees, Hitchens went out of his way, starving himself, living in mud huts, getting disease and facing soldiers and was always getting in the way, doing his good Atheistical works.
Northern Ireland....the Loyalists, against the Separatists....ergo a bad rap on religion....not the Catholics vs Protestants....
Atrocious behaviour does not disprove God; it exposes the rampant hypocrisy against Christians----and this type of behaviour is discussed in the Gospels and the Psalms. It would be more accurate to say that religion and the gospel of Christ have a big gap.
If Bashir , who presents himself as the learned inquirer can be so gullibly misinformed calling the Ireland issue an issue of religion, when it was more a political affiliation issue , how much more the average guy in in street. Actually Bashir is dancing to the old tune of blaming all ills on scapegoats like organized religion he is not a part of.
Religion hasn't poisoned religion-people have poisoned religion! When Adam and Eve sinned it changed humans in a physical way as well as a spiritual and emotional way. Adam sinned because he was to keep Eve with him (by his side) and Eve sinned when the serpent lied to her. Therefore, both Adam and Eve sinned and were changed by their choices because it affected all areas of their being-not just spiritual!
i agree with keller
Israel Palestine, N. Ireland - you're a serious journalist & think at the heart of it is religion?!?
Well said, True Christian, well said! God is NOT man n man IS NOT God.God is above all. He is not to b judged by the acts of sinful man, Christian or otherwise.The 'word' Christian is just a label, nothing more.Many people's lives r changed for the better outside of 'church' n many lives have been broken because of 'church'. Seek God with ALL your heart n you will surely find Him, in the 'church' or otherwise
somebody teach this kid to videotape properly!?!?! Why move the camera ALL the time?? lol
RaynCo 😂😂😂
hi peoples
You don't judge a religion by it's abuse
Yes, you do. Christianity proved more than once not to be divinely inspired or guided.
No it’s not evidence against God it supports exactly what God said would happen.
It is easy to criticise religious books, because they are full of nonsense and scare mongering
1. I'm presented with all kinds of ISSUES about what's True or False. 2. My thoughts about these ISSUES are being monitored because I am the STUDENT.
3. Then I'm asked to leave a comment aout these ISSUES and my thoughts get caught in the WEB!
NOTE!
Where the is a Teacher there will be TESTS (Mathew 23:8 & 10) > 🤪
In my opinion I would not say there is a power greater than self. I grew up in a strict Bible Belt region in a small town with more churches than any other social outlet. Recently, in same said town, a rather well known man was arrested as suspect of molesting two underage girls, one being his granddaughter. The disturbing part is everyone knows the names of the victims. One "victim" is said to dress "in a inviting manner". She is only 15. With more than 31 churches in a pop, of less than thousand people, I do not think the "Christian" attitude should be to condemn this girl, a minor, but to come together as a community and attempt to guide her. In view of the fact a few of these churches handle poisonous snakes-which is illegal-as a display of faith-why hint a child molester is innocent and an underage girl some how asked for it, when they are breaking the law in taking up serpents? All of this, I am sure, is confusing for the victims of this man, particularly having their names known as being molested in the first place. You tell me? Hypocrites or bigots?
How about all of the hospitals that were founded by Christians? How about all of the Christian missionaries going to 3rd world countries and helping them build wells and teach them how to farm?
Very unfortunate that Keller didn't destroy Basheer's strawman objections using the battle in Ireland as representatives of Christians. It is neither a holy war nor are those involved fighting over truth claims about religion. I can't sit there and define PETA or vegans by their most pharisaical representatives and then say, "See, PETA or Vegan doesn't make sense and should be rejected." The claims makes sense regardless of whether people who supposedly support that view do it in an integrative and consistent manner or not. Nice dodge and it seem to through Keller off.
The bias is so obvious... But the abuse of ≠ adherence to. Jesus said, "By their works you will know them." So anyone can claim to be "Christian" (and many do), but next time someone tells you that, ask them what that means...
I wish Tim would quote scripture more often in his explanations.
Tim Keller just doesn't get it.
Yes it’s very hard to defend Christianity
Are you a Christian? How do you defend your own position?
@@jessebryant9233 no not me. It’s too big an ask to believe the stories in the Bible…it’s faith without evidence.
Think of all the Gods mankind has invented…this God is simply another invention.
@@garyroberts3859
Too big by whose or what standard? The Bible says that God uses simple things to confound the knowledgeable. And what about all the evidence we do have, why do you dismiss that? (Archaeological, historical, prophetic, scientific, unprecedented extant manuscript evidence.) How do you know that the God of the Bible is just another invention by men? How do you know that your own naturalistic view isn't just another empty invention? For that matter, why should I believe whatever it is that you believe? And finally, if the God of the Bible is THE GOD, is anything in the Bible impossible? If so, how do you know?
@@jessebryant9233 well Jesse, NOBODY “KNOWS” AT ALL.
But if you think there is a God who has created everything including an ever expanding universe just to control one species on a tiny blue planet and demand worship and offer eternal life with him, sorry but I just find that so fanciful.
It sounds like the stuff made up by Bronze Age people.
It’s impossible to prove it one way of the other but for me science has done enough to show me how it all began and continues…I’ll take my chances and continue believing there is no god.
@@garyroberts3859
How do you know that? Do you have good reasons for believing whatever it is that you believe? As for your strawman bit... So typical. Proclaiming your ignorance. Maybe you should consider educating yourself instead of ranting like a loon? Yeah, you chose to plead the 5th on ALL counts for a reason. Your worldview is fanciful and bankrupt. As for you taking chances... I can't lose and you can't win. Zoinks!! But if you ever come up with a positive, scientific, evidence based case FOR your own position, be sure to tell all the other atheists-they'll grant you the Nobel Prize!
In this case religion is only a dividing principle separated from its content. It is only a means of self-justificatation which could be replaced by other cultural features. In biblical terms, it is the old heart which does not want to change,, forgive or listen to the other. But is is hard to deny that Christianity has the resources to overcome diversities. M. Luther King, the reconciliation between Germany and France, the abolition of slavery. Or me loving the new pope as a protestant.
It's religious too, and it's still going on!
Around my area, for example, you can see little kids (I mean, younger than 10) shouting stuff like 'fuck the Pope!' and writing sectarian acronyms on the walls like KAT (that's "Kill All Taigs" for the uninitiated, Taig being a derogatory term for Roman Catholic).
Religion definitely still comes into it.
The fact that churches require INSURANCE and LIGHTNING RODS is the best sign :-)
Have you ever watched a plumber get up and explain how open heart surgery is done ? Of course not. Why ? It's obvious. If you do not practice or you know very little about it. Then how can you try to educate someone else on it. It's exactly the illustration I pointed out first. Yet these individuals get up and try to explain something they know very little about. Can you imagine letting a plumber up and go and do open heart surgery. It often reminds me of these individuals who go around the world and try to tell others that Christianity is dying. Because he has attended a church who's numbers are dwindling.Instead of going to a church that is expanding beyond measure.
For example there is a church in South Korea that is the largest Christian church in the world. It has 800,000 members in that one congregation. This church was started by one man. His name Dr. Yoggi Chow. He began with just a few family members after the Korean war. When Korea was at one of it's worst moments in history. If you are not a practicing Christian, or are not affiliated with this denomination. It is highly likely you would not be aware of it. It is just like the part I explained at the beginning. If you are not a good practicing doctor. It is highly unlikely that you are an expert in that field. Yet so many believe they are, and stand up and profess these sort of lies about Christianity. If he had really studied his bible just like Jesus reminded us to do. How can you even claim to be an expert on a subject you know little about ? You cannot !! If he read his bible he would of understood that Jesus gave an explanation to this question many times.
I like one of Christianity's late scholars who was asked by a student at a university. He said why do you Christians have such high morals for us ? He turned to the student and said. Tell me do you lock your doors at night ? Simple questions have such simple logic. When you cannot ascertain that fact. You are headed on a road to fantasy. Not reality !! Jesus is the way, and the truth.
You can that the "unbeliever" talk show host does not get it. Time Keller is right. We Christians do not practice real Christianity.which is what Jesus was all about.
its hilarious how a minister can answer a question"why did this happen"
does he truly in his heart of hearts believe in god,or is he selling this
falsity because its his JOB THAT HE GETS PAID EXTRAORDINARILY
WELL TO DO?god/dog doesn't intervene in anything because he is a
figment of someones imagination,a pure invention,similar to religion.
There is nothing new under the sun.
i'm not opposed to the fact that some people have the need to believe in a higher power, as long it realy makes them happier and they don't make desicions based on their belief that could bother someone. But that's just the problem: in 95% of the cases they do hinder people with different views simply by trying influencing governemments to impose their views.
@Jan Buysse So what you are really saying, is that governments, who are supposed to be governing on behalf of *all* people, should be lobbied by all interest groups, except Christians.
@@alexmala6483 : so when or where ever did i say that?
@Jan Buysse in the last 4 lines of your initial comment.
@@alexmala6483 :no, i'm not saying that in the last 4 lines of my initial statement.
It’s easy to say the behaviour of “so called Christians” is the disproof of god. No it’s not it’s it’s the behaviour of people, it’s got nothing to do with Christianity in itself and over the years people have become disrespectful and don’t follow the doctrines that they should. 1 James 26 puts it like this
Those who consider themselves religious and yet do not keep a tight rein on their tongues deceive themselves, and their religion is worthless
"a dividing principle separated from its content".
No offense, but given your name I'm going to assume you don't live in NI like I do? How could you possibly know?
Our previous First Minister was a man who once stood up in the European Parliament (which was hearing a speech from John Paul II at the time) and shouted "I denounce you as the Antichrist!" This is a man who is still considered the heart of the party representing most Protestant/Unionists. Religion isn't a part of it - say what? :)
1Do you really want to enter heaven?
By the bible when God created us he made a plan too make us in a trap with no way out someone had too go too hell
Why do people support a bible that puts us in a trap with no way out and we would burn in hell forever
By the bible god created a plan that puts us in a trap that someone had too go too hell and burn forever the bible allows no forgiveness or change you are not allowed too change you will burn in hell forever
The bible goes against the natural world of change it puts us in a trap a one way ticket too hell here there is always change summer winter spring fall the seasons always change if you shut change off you shut free will off and make us all victims that's why I hate the bible its s one way ticket too hell it destroys hope and does not allow change
Christianity....how to go back to the Biblical roots....
Christianity. what a godamn joke
you should watch animal jam jammer mc snooters
...it's,
seive allusion...
..🤪👁️.
...fear what we are about to re
seive ..🤪👁️👽👿🕳️🌚
BOOM BOOM FUCKING BOOM
@Mee551able Just like there is no 'e' at the end of univers. ;-)
There is no God
Extremely strong correction factors? Is that why Christians stopped saying the Bible justified slavery 150 years ago? I'd hate to see what weak correction factors are, of course I won't live the over two thousand years it took for a strong correction to take place so I guess I'll never know.
What exactly are you saying? Are you saying the Bible justifies slavery? Those who did were only trying to justify their own actions,claiming to be Christian but were not.
Wow, I love this explanation. You are truly gifted by God!