Ep. 029 - External Ballistics Part One
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- Опубліковано 30 вер 2024
- On this episode, Seth is joined by Senior Ballistician, Jayden Quinlan and Ballistic Engineering Technician, Jacob Morrow. We continue our discussion of ballistics, focusing on the external factors that influence a bullets behavior in flight. This topic is incredibly complex but also very interesting. Due to its complexity, we tried to give the listener an understandable analogy for each topic, rather than a textbook definition. While the analogies do not always perfectly describe exactly what's occurring, they help tremendously in making a complex topic easier to understand. We hope you enjoy this deep dive into external ballistics.
I’m a big physics nerd and these discussions are like crack to me. Huge kudos to Jayden. It isn’t easy to break down complex concepts like this into a digestible format. He’s great at that.
Thanks so much!
at 38:40 you inferred that there might be a "best load methodology" for eliminating some of the bad variations in rounds. Wish you had elaborated on that one.
The Hornady Podcast is seriously the best thing I've found on youtube. I've been a reloader for many, many years. Retired law enforcement, retired competition shooter and currently reload and hunt hogs around our place in Oklahoma. Jayden has a talent for breaking down the complex concepts into something the average (ish) person can understand. The analogies, while perhaps not 100% accurate, are great at breaking the complexity into something most of us can understand.
These recent ballistics podcasts really are super interesting! Thanks :)
The 90 degree force on the bullet from wind is called gyroscopic procession. Same as a helicopter, if you wan it to tilt forward you need to apply force left or right depending on direction of rotation. Amazing how one principal works for different applications. I have learned so much from your podcasts, thank's guys.
I find these talks very interesting even if I only understand a small percentage of what’s said lol.
I’m a fan of Hornady products, quality and name.
As much as I love being Australian and living here, only get to watch at all the stuff we can’t do here on the internet.
Thanks guys.
Do you regret giving up your guns to the government?
Is barrel harmonics, part of internal ballistics, external ballistics(results) or both?
This so insightful I can’t thank you enough. Keep the tech info coming!
Quinlan and Morrow? 😍😍😍
Ballistics is a topic to explore. Thanks for posting this!
Great conversation. I'm going to need to listen to it again.
well worth it. jayden does an excellent job explaining it. even as an engineer it takes time to develop such a deep and thorough enough understanding of the topics to be able to explain it so well in simple english.
I love the topic of rifle ballistics. Thoroughly enjoyed this. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for watching!
Worth the time to listen, you will learn .
I wish you could put visuals to this explanation, it would help soo much!!!
Things that influence the bullet...the muzzle CROWN, temperature, barometric pressure, altitude, humidity.....
Wow, great information. Just kinda makes me shut my mouth.
When is the 12th reloading manual coming out?
I've been shooting since I was 3 and reloading for 10 years. This blew my mind. Seriously good content. Answerers to nagging doubt that I've had for years. Thank you all so much.
Could please someone tell me why the bullet deflects MORE on the go, than static?
What is the science behind this behaviour?
If the tip of the bullet is turning to the right, why oh why the bullet is going to the left????
Someone?
This was awesome even for someone that's "just" a hunter. I noticed my comeups on 4dof were different depending on wind speed, which made zero sense to me until I listened to this. Going straight to part 2.
I was enjoying that little “rabbit hole”. It was disappointing to get encouraged back down to layman’s terms.
From a long range shooter over here in Ireland thank you. Shooting 20 years and I’ve learned a lot. Thanks guys.
Thanks for the link.
Flat based bullets are in front of the gases while boat tailed bullets are surrounded by the gas cloud with a fair amount preceding the bullet. Does this gas cloud insulate the bullet from mussel inconsistency?
Woahhhh this is so interesting. I know the man in the grey shirt isnt making the company as much money as if he was working in his usual department but please please have him speak more!
Damn this is some mindblowing information.Thanks guys.
Unbelievable group of guys to have on your team. This is why they make some of the best ammunition
👍
Would luv to see something visual of different bullets design vs wind tunnel and to show why you guys are chasing longer, sleeker,heavier, higher bc pills for each caliber 👍....please get a marketing guy that looks a bit bored to put together clips, drawings, pics to make this show a bit more appealing,even if the person trying to explain had a pic like a power point presentation it would help them explain stuff , thanks for the vid
Do an episode on that test fixture. Might be kind of cool to see it.
Just an enthralling video discussion. The baby bird analogy mouth open was so apt - I need more
Wow. If I could give multiple thumps-up I would do so.
First of all i want you to know that when these conversations take place i'm loosing my surroundings from my 110% focus. Not even a good movie can hold me that much. So don't think for a second that we are bored.
Second. Seen the sniper 101 series of Rex a decade ago, all this knowledge is known to me and it was very easy to follow the conversation.
Third and last. YOU LOST ME with the wind at the end... I don't understand nthe concept of the point of the bullet tilting to the right, of essentially the magnus effect, and that is the reason the wind is blowing it to the left? I can not understand this.
Magnus is the effect of the bullet climbing to a "wall" of wind coming from the right and that is causing the bullet to go high(90°).
Spindrift is caused from the friction of the wind at the bottom of the bullet as it drops.
It is very easy for my to understand all this.
I've liked very much your example of the bullet pushed 3 feet from a 10 mile right wind at 500 yards and the bullet that is dropped from my hand and it doesn't travel so much from the exact same wind. I'm using it ;)
That i don't understand is what is causing the extra distance at 500 yards.
Could someone give some answers? Thanks
loved the density guys!
Bryan Litz would be FX h
I enjoyed it immensely. I think it's funny to see a guy swear by 200gr psp core lokt out of his Remington pump 30-06, and recommends that a guy with a Win Model 70 bolt, with a 24" barrel, and a decent target crown should get the same accuracy as he does with that same bullet. Any true reloaded knows, that their gun prefers certain bullets, at a certain powder charge. It maybe a min, mid, or max charge that it prefers. Some guns don't like certain bullet weights or designs now matter what speed.
This is the first Hornady podcast I have watched. I really enjoyed the intricate details in Jayden’s explanations on a few topics I have never thought of. I have some binge watching to do now. Subscribed!
As far as I’m aware, the major reason why transonic instabilities are still being brought up with relative truth is for cartridges such as .22lr
Awesome thanks for the info! I'm about half way through. Can you guys talk about barrel whip/barrel harmonics and if that is a consistent direction and frequency assuming all other variables (velocity/ bullet engraving alignment/etc ) remain the same? My understanding of a "node" when reloading is when the barrel whip is in the same position at the time of bullet uncorking every time. Maybe that's wrong.
I’m just wondering when you are releasing the 7mm prc
Just a FYI I was like number 777.
This was good..
Eric Cortina talks about jump or rather the noid. And Nathan Foster talks about if bullet is under 3k fps, free bore jump is less detrimental.
Also, what about Eric Cortina's tuner? Seems to be legit.
Harmonic dampers are very legit. Tuned mass dampers or tuned absorbers are used in many different applications in different industries to lessen the effects of vibration. For reference, a node is simply a location on a structure that has zero displacement when the rest of the structure is vibrating. Our goal is to find a load and barrel combination that results in a node at the end of the barrel when the barrel vibrates due to the shot.
Hope that helps!
@@camerongingras9150 It does. Thx
Hello, is there a video on how to find the measurements of the projectile by calipers to insert them into the ballistic calculator
awesome, love this series., thank you
Outstanding!! Best online podcast I’ve seen in a long time.
Thanks for doing these awesome ballistic videos! Really great stuff! Getting all this in depth information is a significant benefit for reloaders who want to get to know every little detail. Besides here in Germany I could tell you about a dozen of rifle shooters and reloaders, but none of them would be able to offer this amount of detailed information. To be frank: yes, some of it is quite hard stuff to understand, but every one who's willing to get his learning curve to the next level will simply watch the chapter he could not follow twice. Waiting for part 2 :-) thanks guys!
A lot of interesting tidbits here. Makes me want to get back into reloading. Oh wait I have two small kids and 0 time.
Thanks for another great podcast. Lots of information flowing here, I hope most people can grasp it. I think Jayden did a wonderful job explaining this. I know this was a big help for me. It also helped me with knowledge I had, that I didn't just dream some stuff up.
Hey, love y'all products. I have never seen one of your bullets bounce off a critter. Or critter say, is that all you got.
I believe your company is on the leading edge of competition in this industry.
Blessings your way.
I'm sure, Joyce would be very proud of the people that work for Hornady.
Take care.
Super informative and interesting, thanks
Double the speed, quadruple the energy.
Awesome incredible amount of information
Glad you enjoyed it
Excellent discussion on a very complex subject. Thank you all for taking the time for these videos I enjoy them very much.
Hello, great infos there! Question:
If a horizontal wind creates a vertical Aero Jump, does a vertical wind create a horizontal AJ (mountains shooting)?
This was awesome, and I might be messed up here, but isn't gyroscopic precession 90⁰ IN the direction of rotation, not 90⁰ OPPOSITE (or "upstream" as he said) the direction of rotation? So in his clock example: torque introduced at 3 o'clock in a clockwise rotation (right hand) would be seen at 6 and not 12? Am I all messed up here?
This is so true
Years ago i took 100 rounds of 150 ball out of an lr308 and shot all 100 rounds same spot. It made a slightly over 2" group
Like a 2 1/4 inch perfect circle.
The explanation of the Conservation of angular momentum might be helped visualized by the swashplate of a helicopter
Nice cartridge but they would have been better to use a .550 base case with .532 rim 7mm-33 nosler longer case neck , better bbl life, better performance than 28 nosler, less powder with better speeds than 28 nosler, longer case neck with 7mm-33 nosler case ! 190 grn 3,000 fps lower pressure!
So a 3 o'clock, high windspeed will automatically open up groupshots on a 100y target due to the bullet becoming "angry" as it leaves the barrel...? Correct?
Very interesting. Heavy I'm tech info. I listened to the end twice. Where he gave math formula to find the right twist rate . Soooo. You also said . Hornady bullets have a suggested twist rate.written on the box You also mentioned barrel length as far as when bullets may over heat . Soooooo.heres the real question. Do you have this entire formula some where written . Or do I just get 308bullets for reloading. Thatatch my twist rate . Or does the 4dof do this ? I'm not really a expert at reloading. Looks ng ago a guy at the range told me to reload my rem 700 7 mag with the right powder and bullet . I found the sweet spot without buying several combinations of powder and bullet. Sooo. The podcast are super informative.. I just bought the Hornady progressive ammo plant
And I'm trying to get in the zone. . The last of my comments . Are is there a information area . Where we can find formulas. And to answered the question.about the podcast. It's both . Both of you guys have a genuine interest . About real knowledge. So the energy of the podcast . Is personal mutual interest . A long with real technical information . Equates to a great podcast 😊
The ideal bullet has a longitudinal center of mass on its center of form. I. E. Perfectly uniform jacket thickness. Manufacturing at Hornady is very good about this, but not perfect. Could we ask for a laser engraved "timing" mark on projectiles from the factory to at least normalize what error remains?
You guys said billets getting erratic in transonic flight, which is a common phenomenon, is NOT because it’s transonic. You forgot to say what IS causing that common experience.
analogies are never 100% correct, they exist cause they are a simplification of what actually is happening, but what is happening is very complex and often understanding can be good enough with analogies
Electroplating copper jackets? perhaps could even spin the lead core while electroplating? How are copper jackets manufactured/put on currently?
We sure the wind isn't like a plane with pressure differentials so with wind pressure is higher on right of RtL wind, and pressure lower on left of RtL creating 'lift' or [deflection] to the left (RtL wind POI is left of POA)?
Boy did I learn something today 😀. Thanks Hornady . Great stuff fellas 👍.
At around 44th minute, you are talking about the bullets response to the force applied to the spinning bullet. You mention that if the force is applied from the right 3 o'clock (right spinning bullet) the bullet will hit high. I get that you mean this in the context of the gyroscopic effects and the Magnus effect is omitted here. The Magnus effect should negate the mentioned force at leas a bit as it's aerodynamic force should push the bullets nose down, causing it to hit low. What is the relation between those forces?
If crosswind 'wakes up' the nose and creates a more accentuated precession, does that mean there is a wind related increase in bullet drag and therefore velocity? I don't think i've heard anyone say "a 90 degree cross wind will make your impacts low".
The parts of this that talk about muzzle jump alone give good reason for 30 shot groups to ensure statistically significant data.
guys, how would you weight all of these exterior ballistic factors causing errors on target when compared to errors on target due to improper fundamentals of shooting? single percentage...less??
Out of curiosity, what kind of pressure is created ahead of the bullet as it is coming down the barrel? As the bullet goes past Mach 1 it must be going down the barrel faster than air can get out which is the basic dynamics of shock wave effect?
associated with my previous comment/question what about the bullet going to sleep is not described during the flight of the bullet.
Great work! I really appreciate y'all discussing diving into the details.
The comment that was said about shooting a bullet at distance, and it moved to the left 3 feet and then dropping it from your hand at 3 feet. It doesn’t go 3 feet to the side because of the wind I have chest this the best of my ability by dropping a bullet from a bridge 300 feet off the water because the bullet I’m shooting is going 300 feet in the air and the bullet does drift in wind if you drop it from 300 feet considerably.
would it be correct to assume that airgun pellets, especially the traditional diabolo-shaped ones, are very susceptible to trans-sonic instability ?
Why don't some ppl like to clean their rifle bore, think I heard on a podcast that some of the guys don't like to clean their bore that often
Just wondering why's that
Jayden I’ve got a question just for shits and giggles would I be right in saying that there is a correlation in balancing a wheel where tthe wheel balancer machine locates the position on the circumference of the wheel and how much weight should be applied in that position to balance the wheel and if such a thing could be achieved less the weight adjustment but instead positioning the bullet in the case and position marked for example heaviest position say at 6 o’clock and the case placed in chamber and same position in relation to following up with the same deal with every round do you think that this condition would result in a possibility of a more consistent or tighter group interested to hear a response
Or more likely the base of the bullet is not perpendicular to the angle of the muzzle.
Can we have the 7mm amax back? If you guys built something better what is it?
Small effects at the beginning accumulate large differences down range.
I'm confused. Need cartoon pictures for my brain to understand . . .
Question: the line of flight of the bullet viewed from above. If there is a cross wind from the right starting at 500 yds due to the range being protected by terrain or trees before that point, does the bullet follow a curved path to the target or does it angle in straight line (deflection?) to the target from where it encountered the new wind?
It will be a curved path starting where the wind hits it at 500 yards out. It takes more time to cover every 100 yard segment, because the bullet (fps) is slowing down, and therefore the wind has more time to affect it during each segment.
@@davidrowley8251 Thanks. A good friend with an advanced degree in aeronautical engineering argued that that the bullet would move downwind and continue in a straight line. I never understood how that would be the case. Or, maybe I didn’t understand him. It is academic anyhow since knowing how far the bullet moves is what separates the match winners from the rest of us.
An aeronautical engineer is used to objects that have their own power and can maintain their travel speed. A rifle bullet, keeps on losing speed until it hits the ground or some other object.
hw come there is no discussion of the concepts of recession and precession are not discussed during this type of episodes.
Gravity is interesting... in that it doesn't actually make sense.
So what book or written resource covers this correctly?
Damn interesting!! Mind blown..
Could you please explain the difference or similarity between aerodynamic jump, Magnus effect, and spin drift? Would it be correct to say spin drift is the horizontal component and aerodynamic jump is the vertical component of the Magnus effect?
I don't know, but I personally don't think spin drift and aerodynamic jump are subcategories or components of the magnus effect since they are caused by the change in the average yaw/pitch of the nose which effects the location of drag behind the bullet 'steering' it off center. The magnus effect, if it does measurably affect bullet trajectory is probably a separate phenomena.
This series is a 💎. In 4dof when using zero range, why does my windage show a .07 correction needed at my zero distance with 0 wind set? It increases as I extend the range which I believe is accounting for spin drift but I thought it would be absolute 0 at zero range. If I used zero angle and 0 impact distances it's 0 windage at my zero distance but now a .02 come up. My neophyte brain must be missing something. Thanks!
If there was wind input when you did your zero range, and then you tell it there's no wind, it will have a windage correction.
Excellent videos! A couple questions: 1. Aerodynamic jump and wind deflection seem to be very similar effects. (At least I think they are.) With wind "deflection", the bullet tip angles into the wind, yet it deflects to the opposite side. (Right to left wind, bullet deflects to the left, opposite the tip direction.) With aerodynamic jump the tip angles upward and the bullet moves upward in the same direction of the tip. Why different directions with the same tip angle? 2. With aerodynamic jump, why does the gyroscopic force only cause the tip to angle (create pitch)? Why doesn't it just move the entire bullet upward while keeping the same bullet orientation? Thanks again!
No subtitles ? I'm sooo out of here !
This episode tickles my tism
excellent job by jayden explaining all this. the formula that model the phenomena are quite dense and even a simple looking one like reynold's number for instance, will quickly soak up an awful lot of words to describe what it is, what it's doing, what that means, where and why you might use it to do what.
Thanks for sharing.
I have listened to this twice on podcast and once on UA-cam.
However somehow I do not quite get the wind drift portion. You have mentioned that with AJ and spin drift that the nose of the bullet will point to the right and cause a drift to the right (seams logical). However in the wind drift section you mention that a right wind will turn the nose in to the wind (to the right) and drift to the left???
Somehow I do not quite grasp that… what did I miss?
Thank Mike
So great ! What about barrel temp,,,,e.g., time between shots. It is a significant variable?
Thanks Tom, we will address that on a future show!
I can’t help but think, that this discussion would have been vastly improved by the use of a drawing board or pad for these guys to illustrate their descriptions.
Ballistics for “ Dummies “ , like me. I love it. Thank you for sharing.
Steve
Get a white board....a drawing is worth a thousands words :)
BTW, I think that the transonic region begins as soon a shock appears on the bullet (M less than but close to 1) and ends when the only shocks are at the tip and behind the bullet.
This was really well explained. Many of us who’ve read Brian Litz’s Advanced Ballistics for long range shooting will have covered this but it’s still been really helpful to have it explained in such practical terms. Anyone who retains just 5% of that book is doing well!
Ballistic apps are still massively helpful. They have helped me put first shots on target at ranges of 1000 yds so it really hasn’t mattered that components such as jump were not accounted for precisely (but still accounted for) as in reality aerodynamic jump makes less difference than wind drift or thermal changes such as a hot day with dense cloud patches coming over (this can throw bullets off a heck of a lot at distance from a solution for steady state conditions).
Spin drift is accounted for in most advanced apps which also use data for specific bullets.
Trans sonic affects some bullet designs way more than others. Centre of mass makes a big difference combined with form factor. Smk palma bullets get very unstable in this region. Something like the 308 smk 190gr match king is almost unaffected. There’s also the question of the shock wave moving from front of bullet down, and the point of turbulence at the tail shifting where the separation point occurs. It’s complex. Lots if designs certainly do go unstable through transonic. I’ve shot enough of them to have experienced this!
Top analogy was a good 1
Great content guys! I bet it would help a ton of people if you did a podcast on just wind deflection. Thanks.
Jayden from the first time I heard your explanations of ballistics I knew that it would be very difficult to hear a better explanation but this time you’ve topped all others I have a lot of respect for you and all the other guys on the podcasts I enjoy them very much keep on keeping on