Great content for those of us who are reloaders, knowledge is accuracy in the end , I’ve loaded all calibers that I’ve owned , many different? But to a real reloader, learning never Ends
One of the best podcasts you've put out. I have battled people for years that always said, "you can't over spin a bullet." My basic understanding of external ballistics knew they were wrong. But this podcast was my validation from a true industry professional.
Great podcast as always. Jaden is super smart and he so good at explaining things . Need more Jayden podcast please. The people doing the hiring at Hornady knows how to pick the right people.
It's both. Jayden takes a subject that most of us look at as complex and makes it fairly easy to understand. It's one thing to understand how something works, it takes a true understanding of the subject to explain it in a way that anyone can understand
Jayden is stellar at imparting knowledge to others for 2 reasons: 1. He knows the material. 2. He works hard to put the knowledge in layman's terms and explain it in a way we can follow. He could easily gloss our eyes over by wowing us with big words and a pace that loses most listeners. He obviously cares more about teaching than about showing his superiority on the subject. #BravoZulu
Wow! This is IT! The deep dive into stability, twist, weight is spectacular. Both of you have a great depth of knowledge and it is fantastic to hear you both share what you have learned. Thank you.
You asked the audience to comment on whether we are drawn to these podcast episodes just for the information or if Jayden is the draw. My answer is “yes”.
I very much enjoy the technical info that Jayden and others bring to the podcast. I am currently not able to get out and do any actual shooting and I spend a lot of time watching technical videos like this one.
I thoroughly enjoy reviewing previous episodes about ballistics. YOU, Senior Ballistician Jayden Quinlan, and the other Hornady experts make complex subjects understandable to all of my interested friends and me. Please present more podcasts about ballistics and other technical aspects of shooting. According to a quick survey at a recent meeting, you certainly do cement our loyalty to Hornady. Keep up the great work in producing a quality, innovative, and reasonably-priced product line. Thanks very much.
🕵️♂️ This was the BEST PRESENTATION TO DATE! 😃 Hats of to Jayden (Spelling?)! 🎩 One Important Suggestion: To "Get Ahead of the Curve" it would be Wise to Give This Presentation to Gunmakers in More Detail! Currently, We have Alot of Gunmakers Starting to Make the 270 Winchester in Faster Twist Barrels, but With "NO CONSISTANCY" in Twist Rates! 🤯 Twist Rates from 9 1/2, 9, 8 1/2, 8, and 7 1/2! So, I Don't Know If They Are Guessing What Heavier Bullets That Bullet Makers (Like Yourself) Will Be Making For This Caliber in the Future, or If They Just Don't Know What They Are Doing? 😂 Thus, It May Be Wise To Open Those Lines of Communication NOW, Before Mass Production of These Rifles Begins - Causing Mass Confusion in the Industry? I Assume (As An Engineer, You Won't Here Me Saying That Often) That As We Approach The 100th Anniversary of the 270 Winchester, We a Are Going to See More Heavy Bullet Options and Alot More Rifles Sold in this Particular Cartridge (My Personal Favorite)! 🥳 Thus, It Would Seem "Prudent" If Everyone Got On The Same Page NOW!!! 🤷♂️
This was the best podcast/video that I've watched on this subject. The only thing missing was a white board. I would love to see more videos on twist rate and bullet types.and weights. Thanks gents.
Another extremely informative segment. Had to listen to certain sections twice. Oh and answer Seth’s question as to Jayden is the only way I get to watch these segment in the living room during prime time as the Bride thinks he is a handsome lad…
I feel like there are legacy cartridges that can benefit from faster twist to take advantage of modern heavier bullets. For example the 25-06 is handicapped by slow twists and lighter bullets. A 7”-7.5” twist with the 130gr class bullets puts that caliber in a whole different league.
Great podcast gentlemen! One potential follow up topic: I’d love to hear more about over-stabilization and it’s effects on long range shooting. An over-stabilized bullet will increase its Angle of Attack throughout a ballistic trajectory…which in turn increases drag, etc. I would love to hear what you have studied with respect to long range accuracy and over-stabilization. How do you accurately calculate the proper spin rate for proper bullet “tip over” to follow the ballistic curve? Keep up the great work!
🤠 Regarding the Faster Twist Barrels for the 270 Winchester in other Factory Rifles, You do have other rifle options Now! Howa makes it in a 1 in 9 twist barrel, Savage in 1 in 8 1/2 barrel, and I believe both Winchester and the "New" Remington Arms Company (Among "Others") is putting on a 1 in 8 twist barrel now! Browning's X-Bolt is in a 1 in 7 1/2 Twist Barrel too! Lots more options are on the way (comming), but what will be the best rifle twist choice? 🤗
Your C X bullets shoot awesome in 8.6 Blackout. I never thought a Barnes would shoot but it is neck n neck with yours. Please expand thanks been shooting your bullets for 60 years
Nice I'm glad I found you guys..I call hornady alot for info on reloading just started reloading about year ago.collecting lead and brass at the range.then making castings and reloading.right now I'm just reloading 9mm.cause that what pistols I have..it's a awesome hobby love it..and I get a lot of firearm practice. And testing my ammo...
Ive learned so much from all of your podcasts, thanks for doing these. This one answered a question ive had for a long time. I run the 230 grain A tips at 2850fps in my 24in 1in 10 twist 300WM(its a long story why i even tried them in the first place) they are very accurate but i wondered if it was going to show itself at longer distances. I know its not the right twist to use but i have hit milk jugs past 1000 yards with it.
I was hoping that you would address the relationship between spin rate and dynamic stability. I’m glad you acknowledged its omission at the end. It is my understanding that dynamic stability is far less deterministic than gyro stability… which makes it far more difficult to understand and thus makes it interesting enough to warrant its own episode. Wink wink. 😉
Great podcast! Always learning more. Keep them coming. If you could do caliber specific talks about all the topics you have already discussed that would be great
Great info. It took me 3 attempts to listen through the entire thing without going Deer in the headlights. Lol. Jayden is great. Looks like your drunk uncle, but speaks like a college professor.
I have seen a number of testers state that faster twist rates generally have a significant positive effect on monolithic copper alloy bullets designed to expand. Those bullets tend to penetrate deeply anyway, so opening a little quicker is not a problem. I wonder if the effect is even greater with bullets that expand into more distinct petals and tend to leave spiral patterns in game or gel. My train of thinking is that possibly more tissue is damaged by is slicing rather than being torn apart as from a classic mushroom-shape. Slicing may not be an accurate description since it may be more from shear from the gaps between the petals. I have heard one three-petal design described as a high-speed broadhead and have seen photos of triangular holes in tissue. I don't know if the number of petals makes a big difference, though. It is possible that the tri-lobed pattern is just more distinct and photographs better. FWIW, extreme twist, as from a 5" twist 300 Blackout has caused premature opening of at least one monolithic bullet. The manufacturer actually modified their bullet to avoid customer complaints as the more rapid twist started becoming more common. As you guys said, faster is not always better.
Hi Jayden, I have a very rarely spoken about subject around “Spin Rate” to ask a question about, and it is this…. In a regular rifle/cartridge combination it is known that generally, once a projectile is spun up in a STANDARD rifle barrel and spin rate for that calibre, and then starts its journey downrange, it is accepted (I think?) that said projectile’s attitude angle to the horizontal is more or less maintained all the way to the target, no matter how far off from the shooter that may be and how arced the trajectory track is… ALSO it is a known that there is - within each projectile and cartridge combination - a combination of projectile and spin rate (LOWER than what is the accepted norm for that projectile for general good stability) where the bullet will fly more “Point First”with the bullet axis will follow the actual trajectory track. This will obviously Maximise the projectile’s B.C. which generally will have been compromised somewhat once the projectile goes over the max height of the trajectory path and starts it’s fall down the other side of it’s trajectory curve! What I’d like to be able to predict/calculate is what is this rate of spin - barrel twist - for any given bullet calibre and velocity range whereby one can then maybe maximise the ELR bullet B.C.?? Thinking about this some more, I think it COULD be “Suggested” in the 4DOF Stability Calculations and output number. I would assume that if the spin rate (barrel twist rate) formula gives a stability number around or maybe slightly below 1.00 that THIS may be the area of JUST Stabilised projectiles that I am looking for and eluding to?? Am I anywhere near correct in my assumptions please Jayden?? P.S. I absolutely LOVE the topics of discussion and the information raised and spoken about within each and every episode of the Hornady Podcasts, but particularly ones where you are a speaker!! Kindest Regards, Steve. (England, UK)
Is there any data on barrel life difference with going to a faster twist rate? I know the faster twist per caliber all things being equal produce more heat because of the increased internal friction. No mention of gain twist rifling. Listening to Frank Green his research has led him to believe just a small gain in twist drives the projectile better applying an increasing load. Verses a more stagnant force being applied to the jacket. In my mind “if” the twist was not perfectly consistent the projectile might rattle in the rifling. Joe Carlos talked about his research led him to believe heavy per caliber bullets benefited from a gain twist IE 90gr .22cal. As he feels they skid some while accelerating a “heavy” bullet to a high RPM. For me the proof is the true match barrels I own shoot such a wide variety of ammo well verses factory barrels have only a couple they really like. This tells me that the ammo out there is really good by and large but the barrel usually screws it up in one way or another. Thank you again for making my lunch breaks so informative!
56:57 just tested my 8.6 subsonic loads -SST 225 gn @ 1014fps. Interesting that I found the copper jackets downrange at the 100 yds. It reached since I saw the splash but interesting how the Copper jacket separated from the lead but can’t figure out if the copper unraveled at impact or on its way?
Always interesting and great information specially for reloading and gun design/making hobbyists like me who always wants to practice cautious curiosity-- because we all know what happened to the cat!!!😂 Thanks for making such great episodes for your channel!!!
Nice to hear you incorporate 8.6 Blackout as an example as I just started to complete my 16" Faxon Barrel build-- so many thoughts about your available bullets to use so im going to venture into trying your SST 225gn in subsonic but want to hear more if your ELD-X and CX could survive supersonic. Quinlan question is both-- information and delivery-- making it understandable is key!
Wow! This crusty curmudgeon, a physicist of many decades, has been posing these questions to himself and conceptualized much of the discussion. What is the near future is the deep dive to these equations and tabulation methods for a complete extension of the physics to the practical. Thanks so much for such a talk and where it will lead!
It is important to note that it was only the North that had rifles with miniballz and rifling. The South was broke. They had no money for rifles, uniforms shoes. Boots. Southern soldiers were using their squirrel guns. As a result they could not get any accuracy after 40 yards. Hence the South would March in tight formations as they did on Gettysberg. Causing mass casualties. While the North had new Uniforns, boots, food, new rifled barrels with miniballs. That were accurate out to 2 to 300 yards. In an open field battle like Gettysberg. The South never stood a chance. Let alone the marksman on Little Rountop. Who repelled constant attacks from the South. Which won the battle of Gettysberg. This battle is painstakingly studed at the U.S. MILITARY ACADEMY AT West Point. I encourage everyone to read Shelby Foots writings on Gettysberg. Fascinating.
I have a 10 twist 17 Remington and I would like to assure that it would stabilize the 25 gr Vmax, and I don’t see where it shows up in the BC side of the Hornady app. I can’t use the 4dof side since the bullet is not in that area. I am in south west Nebraska approximately 2100 ft elevation. Also I built a 22 creedmoor on a savage msr long range precision last year and was able to take 4 does with it during lare season
Great Episode, as always a fountain of Information from Jayden and why I always enjoy when he is on the podcast. I would have liked a little more look at twist rate and monolithic/solid copper bullets and how the seeming eventual “environmentally mandated” change over to them might result in needs to increase or not increase that twist rate for calibers that have long established history. IE a .308 win going from a 155 lead to a 155 copper monolithic, would it benefit from a faster twist to help with expansion or is the metallurgy advanced enough now that don’t have to worry about it.
This podcast makes me thankful for hornady SAAMI spec'ing the creedmoor and PRC cartridges. We can just pick a caliber, buy a rifle and ammo, and know it will work.
Came here hoping to learn a lot of things, but especially how the 8.6 BLK bullet can work with 1:3 twist and subsonic velocity. Maybe I'm just not catching the intuition, but it seems to me we discovered the greatest innovation in ballistic science since rifling itself: adding projectile energy via mass, velocity, AND rotational velocity.
An out of balance tire can have a zone where it is out of balance. My wife’s car has one that is out between 25 and 45mph. It gets more pronounced as the speed increases, then it stabilizes. Do bullets have a zone like this?
Interesting, wasn't really aware of anything other than Greenhill, but, haven't had the need to worry about twist rates other than for cast bullets, and the ones I've shot, were pretty conventional. I blew up some .22 cal 45gr Sierra Hornet bullets one day just to see it happen, was interesting, but, no huge deal. Decent episode.
Unfortunately, one I'm struggling with is the Hornady Sub-X 175Gr. in .308 and it's not in 4DOF. 8( How come no stability stuff for the Sub-X's? Seems like the LOW velocity loads are the most important to keep this number accurate. I'm using a 1:10 twist .308 and at 1100 fps, it should be stable, but a couple are flipping inside my suppressor. 8( I love the information and like Jayden. ;)
First, thanks for covering the basics of Twist Rates and their history. How about Left Twist to counter the Coriolis Effect and Gain Twist. My question would be for let's say a 24 inch left gain twist Bartlein SS Barrel 12 1/4 Twist to 12 Twist ( or 12 to 11 3/4 ) for the Hornady 35 Grain NTX 223 Remington Superformance Varmint at 4000 fps. This would be to stabilize this cartridge in a maximal way. I would be shooting prairie dogs early in the day with low wind mostly. Then graduate upward in bullet weight in different rifles and calibers. Now about having multiple rifle profiles in ballistic calculators/devices my philosophy is to have only one profile per rifle. This is because each rifle has only one true zero. At least in my world. I could be wrong but that would have to be explained to me. I have thought of having multiple ballistic profiles per rifle and then a "Zero Dope Card" with the number of range and windage clicks to bring to zero each profile for the same rifle. But I like to stay away introducing potential confusion in my shooting. Your thoughts on this also.
Given that Tikka and Sako are now producing their .243 calibre rifles with 1:8 twist to accommodate the misguided usage of copper in U.K. and EU, how will this effect the usage of legacy cartridges which were designed around 1:9 and greater in this calibre and similar going forward?
Great stuff as always!....theoretically though if only monolithic bullets existed, or someone decided they were the only type they'd shoot, would recommend twist rates lower across the board, or not at all?
Jayden! Jayden! (Cheering) Thanks for both of you. Thinking about buying the new Ruger American gen 2 in 6.5 creed, or 30-06. What should the twist rate for each be? Thanks
These actions usually use the recoil energy to cam the barrel out of lock. So the twist rate should have a negligible effect, because the twist is imparted onto the projectile very early in the firing sequence. Most likely the barrel is still fully locked when angular acceleration is nearing 0.
So all things the same, a 26 inch barrel will spin the bullet faster than an 18in. Does 4dof help find the optimal twist rate for specific barrel lengths?
In light of Browning producing 1/8 twist barrels for their .270 caliber barrels. Could you elaborate on what has convinced Browning to produce an aggressive twist barrel on their .270 caliber rifles. Thank you.
Thanks for the insight! Has anyone explained the constant twist rate against the increase in friction down the barrrel? (bullet starts at zero-friction/max-pessure and increases friction and loses pressure as it accelrates through the path.)
The 10% error makes me wonder if I could try a 160 grain bullet (hand loaded, of course, since nobody makes a cartridge) for my 270 WSM with a 9.5 twist rate - Nosler has a 160grain ABLR that I assume is made for the 6.8 Western, and it says it needs a 9 twist rate, but 9.5 isn't that far off ... I don't yet reload, but I'm seriously considering it, for things like this (and because cartridges are hard to find, and way expensive up here in Canada) - I know Nosler now has a 150 grain ABLR in a 270, so I could reload using that bullet, but I am curious about the 160 - if I was to figure out how to set it up to have a muzzle velocity of around 2850, maybe that would get me close to gyroscopic stability as it uncorks... I chose 2850 fps because I expect the 150 grain to leave the muzzle at somewhere around 3100 fps (although the 145 grain ELD-X is somewhat higher) - my point is that I've seen a couple of guys fire that 160 grain bullet from their 270 wsm (on YT) while trying to hit 3000 fps- while not seeing keyholes on the target (at 100yards), and the 160 grain bullet might uncork at a high number under normal loads, but if I was to lower that a bit, that would bring the chance of stability up, closer to optimal, as it leaves the barrel... It would be interesting to try - though it would probably be less expensive to just use the 150grain ABLR that the rifle is made to shoot - but that 9.5 twist rate, with that 160 grain, with a lesser powder load to give me lower fps ... Tempting to test...
Love what u guys have done in the prc line just got a 7prc awesome cartridge but ur ammo sucks we need a bonded bullet the eldx comes apart I'm waiting on the federal 170 terminal ascent to come out
Here's a question about something I never hear anyone talk about. Does a barrels twist rate affect muzzle velocity?? Does a tighter twist rate cause MV to be reduced?
I like this subject matter. I wanted to ask if there is any concern about matching the bullet spin rate to the natural vibration rate of a rifle barrel? Are the two frequencies so far apart or the amplitude of the barrel vibration so small that it is not a major concern? In the car tire analogy, sometimes the vibration gets worse as you pick up speed, and then starts getting less when you go even faster. Can a rifle barrel vibration and bullet spin be adversely matched?
I'm interested in seeing what comes out of experimenting with extremely fast twist, like 8.6. I know originally Hornady was involved with that cartridge, so i hope they have some insight.
Is there a meaningful benefit to rifling that increases spin rate as it goes? If think it would encourage a gradual increase which would be kinder to large lead bullets that might deform too easily and resist acceleration more profoundly if pushed hard. Or it might be a good alternative to really fast rifling so as to reduce overall friction but still result in the proper spin speed upon exiting the barrel.
Without having all of the fancy tools being talked about here, is there a number range I should be looking for if I am using the Berger Stability tool? Looking at the heavy for caliber 25 cal rifles and playing with altitude and temperature gives me between 1.6 and 2.0 assuming a MV of 3050 and a twist of 1 in 7 with their Target Hybrid slug. Not sire if 1.6 to 2.0 is good or bad
In the case of the 6mmARC 108gr ELD M projectile, is there a noticeable difference in a barrel that is 1/7 vs 1/7.5? There are many barrels in both twist rate. Which twist rate will perform better?
In short, bare bones. Bullets need spin to be stable. for a given caliber, longer bullets need more RPM to stabilize. RPM can be increased by increasing twist rate or velocity. There are math formulas to calculate this, but honestly, I just use the calculator on Berger's website. A Hornday calculator would be nice....
“There’s not a bullet out there that needs a 7 twist” maybe I’m totally wrong here but, badlands precision 135 SBD2 and a couple of the hammer lines of bullet absolutely need a 7 twist or faster in the 6.5 caliber. The badlands are ridiculously long and sleek. I shoot that bullet solely in my 6.5-284. I REALLY wish it was in 4dof @hornadypodcast
I feel like you should have elaborated a bit on this topic of rotational energy. Contrary to what is said in this podcast it does help with terminal effect. How could it not if the bullet stays in the target? The question is just how much. By my calculations you can get about 5 % extra energy into a subsonic 300 grain bullet by utilizing a 1" twist barrel. Not a lot, arguably not enough to make it worthwhile, but more than a neglible amount.
Great content for those of us who are reloaders, knowledge is accuracy in the end , I’ve loaded all calibers that I’ve owned , many different? But to a real reloader, learning never Ends
One of the best podcasts you've put out. I have battled people for years that always said, "you can't over spin a bullet." My basic understanding of external ballistics knew they were wrong. But this podcast was my validation from a true industry professional.
Great podcast as always. Jaden is super smart and he so good at explaining things . Need more Jayden podcast please. The people doing the hiring at Hornady knows how to pick the right people.
It shows how well they understand things when they aren't just quoting a book. No flux capacitors or turbo encabulators involved.
It's both. Jayden takes a subject that most of us look at as complex and makes it fairly easy to understand. It's one thing to understand how something works, it takes a true understanding of the subject to explain it in a way that anyone can understand
Well said
Absolutely right
Yes, he is a very good educator.
As a physicist, I love these kinds of discussions!
Cheers, guys 🍻
Jayden is stellar at imparting knowledge to others for 2 reasons:
1. He knows the material.
2. He works hard to put the knowledge in layman's terms and explain it in a way we can follow.
He could easily gloss our eyes over by wowing us with big words and a pace that loses most listeners. He obviously cares more about teaching than about showing his superiority on the subject. #BravoZulu
Thanks so much!
Wow! This is IT! The deep dive into stability, twist, weight is spectacular. Both of you have a great depth of knowledge and it is fantastic to hear you both share what you have learned. Thank you.
Glad you enjoyed it!
This is the best technical podcast out there!
You asked the audience to comment on whether we are drawn to these podcast episodes just for the information or if Jayden is the draw. My answer is “yes”.
This right here. I want all the technical information that i can get. Good stuff
YEEEEEEESSSSSSSSS!
As far as why we like jayden it is both. The topic and his knowledge of the subject is what i like.
I very much enjoy the technical info that Jayden and others bring to the podcast. I am currently not able to get out and do any actual shooting and I spend a lot of time watching technical videos like this one.
I thoroughly enjoy reviewing previous episodes about ballistics. YOU, Senior Ballistician Jayden Quinlan, and the other Hornady experts make complex subjects understandable to all of my interested friends and me. Please present more podcasts about ballistics and other technical aspects of shooting. According to a quick survey at a recent meeting, you certainly do cement our loyalty to Hornady. Keep up the great work in producing a quality, innovative, and reasonably-priced product line. Thanks very much.
🕵️♂️ This was the BEST PRESENTATION TO DATE! 😃 Hats of to Jayden (Spelling?)! 🎩 One Important Suggestion: To "Get Ahead of the Curve" it would be Wise to Give This Presentation to Gunmakers in More Detail! Currently, We have Alot of Gunmakers Starting to Make the 270 Winchester in Faster Twist Barrels, but With "NO CONSISTANCY" in Twist Rates! 🤯 Twist Rates from 9 1/2, 9, 8 1/2, 8, and 7 1/2! So, I Don't Know If They Are Guessing What Heavier Bullets That Bullet Makers (Like Yourself) Will Be Making For This Caliber in the Future, or If They Just Don't Know What They Are Doing? 😂 Thus, It May Be Wise To Open Those Lines of Communication NOW, Before Mass Production of These Rifles Begins - Causing Mass Confusion in the Industry? I Assume (As An Engineer, You Won't Here Me Saying That Often) That As We Approach The 100th Anniversary of the 270 Winchester, We a Are Going to See More Heavy Bullet Options and Alot More Rifles Sold in this Particular Cartridge (My Personal Favorite)! 🥳 Thus, It Would Seem "Prudent" If Everyone Got On The Same Page NOW!!! 🤷♂️
This was the best podcast/video that I've watched on this subject. The only thing missing was a white board. I would love to see more videos on twist rate and bullet types.and weights. Thanks gents.
OMG what an amazing podcast. I am speechless due to all the great information presented here. WOW!! thank you soooooo much. I lovd it!
Wow, thank you!
This is a much needed talk,it is an eye opener
Another extremely informative segment. Had to listen to certain sections twice. Oh and answer Seth’s question as to Jayden is the only way I get to watch these segment in the living room during prime time as the Bride thinks he is a handsome lad…
Thank you for breaking down these (to me) complex concepts and making them tangible and understandable. I really enjoyed your summary!
Great to hear!
I feel like there are legacy cartridges that can benefit from faster twist to take advantage of modern heavier bullets. For example the 25-06 is handicapped by slow twists and lighter bullets. A 7”-7.5” twist with the 130gr class bullets puts that caliber in a whole different league.
Jayden is the Chuck Norris of ballistics.
Well said , he understands what he knows
@@wesleyherring9870AMEN on steroids 😎😎😎
With a slightly better beard
Jayden once made a cartridge that could kiII Chuck Norris. It was called the Big Bang.
@@fattigla. Blasphemy!!
Great information. Thanks Hornady!
Glad you enjoyed it
Great podcast gentlemen! One potential follow up topic: I’d love to hear more about over-stabilization and it’s effects on long range shooting. An over-stabilized bullet will increase its Angle of Attack throughout a ballistic trajectory…which in turn increases drag, etc. I would love to hear what you have studied with respect to long range accuracy and over-stabilization. How do you accurately calculate the proper spin rate for proper bullet “tip over” to follow the ballistic curve? Keep up the great work!
🤠 Regarding the Faster Twist Barrels for the 270 Winchester in other Factory Rifles, You do have other rifle options Now! Howa makes it in a 1 in 9 twist barrel, Savage in 1 in 8 1/2 barrel, and I believe both Winchester and the "New" Remington Arms Company (Among "Others") is putting on a 1 in 8 twist barrel now! Browning's X-Bolt is in a 1 in 7 1/2 Twist Barrel too! Lots more options are on the way (comming), but what will be the best rifle twist choice? 🤗
Another Quinlan's Corner!
Your C X bullets shoot awesome in 8.6 Blackout. I never thought a Barnes would shoot but it is neck n neck with yours. Please expand thanks been shooting your bullets for 60 years
I'm so glad this topic came up.
I have a 22-250 fast twist. This was good information.
It always the information. But also the way that Jayden conveys it.
Id like to see a podcast on cryogenic treated barrels . And accuracy gains if any. Great show loved it. Always learning something from hornady
Thanks for watching!
50 years of casting and reloading pistols rifles shotguns muzzleloader , Been long journey thanks to Hornady
The answer to the question about content or person is simple. BOTH !
Nice I'm glad I found you guys..I call hornady alot for info on reloading just started reloading about year ago.collecting lead and brass at the range.then making castings and reloading.right now I'm just reloading 9mm.cause that what pistols I have..it's a awesome hobby love it..and I get a lot of firearm practice. And testing my ammo...
I enjoy both the information and Jayden
After your indepth teaching that 98% of all I've learned from most shooters is hog wash.
Thanks guys.
Ive learned so much from all of your podcasts, thanks for doing these. This one answered a question ive had for a long time. I run the 230 grain A tips at 2850fps in my 24in 1in 10 twist 300WM(its a long story why i even tried them in the first place) they are very accurate but i wondered if it was going to show itself at longer distances. I know its not the right twist to use but i have hit milk jugs past 1000 yards with it.
Very interesting, very informative. Things have come a long way since I first started reloading in the late eighties.
Thank you
Glad you enjoyed it
I was hoping that you would address the relationship between spin rate and dynamic stability. I’m glad you acknowledged its omission at the end. It is my understanding that dynamic stability is far less deterministic than gyro stability… which makes it far more difficult to understand and thus makes it interesting enough to warrant its own episode.
Wink wink. 😉
Will watch time and time again soo much information to absorb Best source of information I've come across amazing ❤
Awesome, thank you!
Explained well !! Educational and knowledgeable
Thank you!
I'd be really interested in subsonic and transonic variables. Bullet design, twist rate etc. Such as 22lr and 300 blackout.
Great podcast! Always learning more. Keep them coming.
If you could do caliber specific talks about all the topics you have already discussed that would be great
I learned a lot from this conversation and it’s a pretty great plug for 4DOF too. Love hearing technical talk like this.
Great to hear!
Great info. It took me 3 attempts to listen through the entire thing without going Deer in the headlights. Lol.
Jayden is great. Looks like your drunk uncle, but speaks like a college professor.
JD is always full of usefull information!!
I have seen a number of testers state that faster twist rates generally have a significant positive effect on monolithic copper alloy bullets designed to expand. Those bullets tend to penetrate deeply anyway, so opening a little quicker is not a problem. I wonder if the effect is even greater with bullets that expand into more distinct petals and tend to leave spiral patterns in game or gel. My train of thinking is that possibly more tissue is damaged by is slicing rather than being torn apart as from a classic mushroom-shape. Slicing may not be an accurate description since it may be more from shear from the gaps between the petals. I have heard one three-petal design described as a high-speed broadhead and have seen photos of triangular holes in tissue. I don't know if the number of petals makes a big difference, though. It is possible that the tri-lobed pattern is just more distinct and photographs better.
FWIW, extreme twist, as from a 5" twist 300 Blackout has caused premature opening of at least one monolithic bullet. The manufacturer actually modified their bullet to avoid customer complaints as the more rapid twist started becoming more common. As you guys said, faster is not always better.
Excellent Podcast! Learned a LOT!
Great to hear!
Hi Jayden, I have a very rarely spoken about subject around “Spin Rate” to ask a question about, and it is this….
In a regular rifle/cartridge combination it is known that generally, once a projectile is spun up in a STANDARD rifle barrel and spin rate for that calibre, and then starts its journey downrange, it is accepted (I think?) that said projectile’s attitude angle to the horizontal is more or less maintained all the way to the target, no matter how far off from the shooter that may be and how arced the trajectory track is…
ALSO it is a known that there is - within each projectile and cartridge combination - a combination of projectile and spin rate (LOWER than what is the accepted norm for that projectile for general good stability) where the bullet will fly more “Point First”with the bullet axis will follow the actual trajectory track. This will obviously Maximise the projectile’s B.C. which generally will have been compromised somewhat once the projectile goes over the max height of the trajectory path and starts it’s fall down the other side of it’s trajectory curve!
What I’d like to be able to predict/calculate is what is this rate of spin - barrel twist - for any given bullet calibre and velocity range whereby one can then maybe maximise the ELR bullet B.C.??
Thinking about this some more, I think it COULD be “Suggested” in the 4DOF Stability Calculations and output number. I would assume that if the spin rate (barrel twist rate) formula gives a stability number around or maybe slightly below 1.00 that THIS may be the area of JUST Stabilised projectiles that I am looking for and eluding to?? Am I anywhere near correct in my assumptions please Jayden??
P.S. I absolutely LOVE the topics of discussion and the information raised and spoken about within each and every episode of the Hornady Podcasts, but particularly ones where you are a speaker!!
Kindest Regards,
Steve. (England, UK)
Is there any data on barrel life difference with going to a faster twist rate? I know the faster twist per caliber all things being equal produce more heat because of the increased internal friction. No mention of gain twist rifling. Listening to Frank Green his research has led him to believe just a small gain in twist drives the projectile better applying an increasing load. Verses a more stagnant force being applied to the jacket. In my mind “if” the twist was not perfectly consistent the projectile might rattle in the rifling. Joe Carlos talked about his research led him to believe heavy per caliber bullets benefited from a gain twist IE 90gr .22cal. As he feels they skid some while accelerating a “heavy” bullet to a high RPM. For me the proof is the true match barrels I own shoot such a wide variety of ammo well verses factory barrels have only a couple they really like. This tells me that the ammo out there is really good by and large but the barrel usually screws it up in one way or another. Thank you again for making my lunch breaks so informative!
56:57 just tested my 8.6 subsonic loads -SST 225 gn @ 1014fps. Interesting that I found the copper jackets downrange at the 100 yds. It reached since I saw the splash but interesting how the Copper jacket separated from the lead but can’t figure out if the copper unraveled at impact or on its way?
In general, the recommendation has been to not use lead core expanding bullets unless they're bonded.
Another great episode! I listen to a lot of Cortina’s video’s too, I’ll be watching for his input on this one!
How bout a show on annealing soon?
Always interesting and great information specially for reloading and gun design/making hobbyists like me who always wants to practice cautious curiosity-- because we all know what happened to the cat!!!😂 Thanks for making such great episodes for your channel!!!
Nice to hear you incorporate 8.6 Blackout as an example as I just started to complete my 16" Faxon Barrel build-- so many thoughts about your available bullets to use so im going to venture into trying your SST 225gn in subsonic but want to hear more if your ELD-X and CX could survive supersonic. Quinlan question is both-- information and delivery-- making it understandable is key!
Thank you for the videos always looking forward. It would be nice to find out about powder fill rates for common calibers.
Great suggestion!
Wow! This crusty curmudgeon, a physicist of many decades, has been posing these questions to himself and conceptualized much of the discussion. What is the near future is the deep dive to these equations and tabulation methods for a complete extension of the physics to the practical. Thanks so much for such a talk and where it will lead!
Awesome podcast. Thanks
Glad you enjoyed it!
Would love for you to have a podcast and explain the Sabatti multi radial rifling.
It is important to note that it was only the North that had rifles with miniballz and rifling. The South was broke. They had no money for rifles, uniforms shoes. Boots. Southern soldiers were using their squirrel guns. As a result they could not get any accuracy after 40 yards. Hence the South would March in tight formations as they did on Gettysberg. Causing mass casualties. While the North had new Uniforns, boots, food, new rifled barrels with miniballs. That were accurate out to 2 to 300 yards. In an open field battle like Gettysberg. The South never stood a chance. Let alone the marksman on Little Rountop. Who repelled constant attacks from the South. Which won the battle of Gettysberg. This battle is painstakingly studed at the U.S. MILITARY ACADEMY AT West Point. I encourage everyone to read Shelby Foots writings on Gettysberg. Fascinating.
Love it every video I watch of Hornady I get so much info my head just might explode thanks.
Glad to help
I have a 10 twist 17 Remington and I would like to assure that it would stabilize the 25 gr Vmax, and I don’t see where it shows up in the BC side of the Hornady app.
I can’t use the 4dof side since the bullet is not in that area.
I am in south west Nebraska approximately 2100 ft elevation.
Also I built a 22 creedmoor on a savage msr long range precision last year and was able to take 4 does with it during lare season
Great Episode, as always a fountain of Information from Jayden and why I always enjoy when he is on the podcast. I would have liked a little more look at twist rate and monolithic/solid copper bullets and how the seeming eventual “environmentally mandated” change over to them might result in needs to increase or not increase that twist rate for calibers that have long established history. IE a .308 win going from a 155 lead to a 155 copper monolithic, would it benefit from a faster twist to help with expansion or is the metallurgy advanced enough now that don’t have to worry about it.
Good morning, Hornady 😉👊🇺🇸
Morning!
This podcast makes me thankful for hornady SAAMI spec'ing the creedmoor and PRC cartridges. We can just pick a caliber, buy a rifle and ammo, and know it will work.
Came here hoping to learn a lot of things, but especially how the 8.6 BLK bullet can work with 1:3 twist and subsonic velocity. Maybe I'm just not catching the intuition, but it seems to me we discovered the greatest innovation in ballistic science since rifling itself: adding projectile energy via mass, velocity, AND rotational velocity.
Thanks for the enlightenment!😊
Welcome!
An out of balance tire can have a zone where it is out of balance. My wife’s car has one that is out between 25 and 45mph. It gets more pronounced as the speed increases, then it stabilizes. Do bullets have a zone like this?
Interesting, wasn't really aware of anything other than Greenhill, but, haven't had the need to worry about twist rates other than for cast bullets, and the ones I've shot, were pretty conventional. I blew up some .22 cal 45gr Sierra Hornet bullets one day just to see it happen, was interesting, but, no huge deal. Decent episode.
Unfortunately, one I'm struggling with is the Hornady Sub-X 175Gr. in .308 and it's not in 4DOF. 8( How come no stability stuff for the Sub-X's? Seems like the LOW velocity loads are the most important to keep this number accurate. I'm using a 1:10 twist .308 and at 1100 fps, it should be stable, but a couple are flipping inside my suppressor. 8( I love the information and like Jayden. ;)
Yeah that's a pretty severe lack.
First, thanks for covering the basics of Twist Rates and their history. How about Left Twist to counter the Coriolis Effect and Gain Twist. My question would be for let's say a 24 inch left gain twist Bartlein SS Barrel 12 1/4 Twist to 12 Twist ( or 12 to 11 3/4 ) for the Hornady 35 Grain NTX 223 Remington Superformance Varmint at 4000 fps. This would be to stabilize this cartridge in a maximal way. I would be shooting prairie dogs early in the day with low wind mostly. Then graduate upward in bullet weight in different rifles and calibers. Now about having multiple rifle profiles in ballistic calculators/devices my philosophy is to have only one profile per rifle. This is because each rifle has only one true zero. At least in my world. I could be wrong but that would have to be explained to me. I have thought of having multiple ballistic profiles per rifle and then a "Zero Dope Card" with the number of range and windage clicks to bring to zero each profile for the same rifle. But I like to stay away introducing potential confusion in my shooting. Your thoughts on this also.
Given that Tikka and Sako are now producing their .243 calibre rifles with 1:8 twist to accommodate the misguided usage of copper in U.K. and EU, how will this effect the usage of legacy cartridges which were designed around 1:9 and greater in this calibre and similar going forward?
Have you talked about cleaning regimens? I like the content and Jayden's presentation, Seth too.
Great stuff as always!....theoretically though if only monolithic bullets existed, or someone decided they were the only type they'd shoot, would recommend twist rates lower across the board, or not at all?
Excellent ,Very Interesting 💯 💥💥💥💥💥💥💥
Thank you! Cheers!
Super useful information and I only watch because of Jayden lol
Jaden is fantastic!
Jayden! Jayden! (Cheering)
Thanks for both of you.
Thinking about buying the new Ruger American gen 2 in 6.5 creed, or 30-06. What should the twist rate for each be?
Thanks
My greatest question has always been this: What effect does twist rate have in rotating barrel locking designs?
These actions usually use the recoil energy to cam the barrel out of lock.
So the twist rate should have a negligible effect, because the twist is imparted onto the projectile very early in the firing sequence. Most likely the barrel is still fully locked when angular acceleration is nearing 0.
So all things the same, a 26 inch barrel will spin the bullet faster than an 18in. Does 4dof help find the optimal twist rate for specific barrel lengths?
In light of Browning producing 1/8 twist barrels for their .270 caliber barrels. Could you elaborate on what has convinced Browning to produce an aggressive twist barrel on their .270 caliber rifles.
Thank you.
1:3 twist 8.6 blackout thoughts.
Oops should waited
@@russellgavin1820why should you have waited? Did they answer your question elsewhere?
Thanks for the insight! Has anyone explained the constant twist rate against the increase in friction down the barrrel? (bullet starts at zero-friction/max-pessure and increases friction and loses pressure as it accelrates through the path.)
The 10% error makes me wonder if I could try a 160 grain bullet (hand loaded, of course, since nobody makes a cartridge) for my 270 WSM with a 9.5 twist rate - Nosler has a 160grain ABLR that I assume is made for the 6.8 Western, and it says it needs a 9 twist rate, but 9.5 isn't that far off ... I don't yet reload, but I'm seriously considering it, for things like this (and because cartridges are hard to find, and way expensive up here in Canada) - I know Nosler now has a 150 grain ABLR in a 270, so I could reload using that bullet, but I am curious about the 160 - if I was to figure out how to set it up to have a muzzle velocity of around 2850, maybe that would get me close to gyroscopic stability as it uncorks... I chose 2850 fps because I expect the 150 grain to leave the muzzle at somewhere around 3100 fps (although the 145 grain ELD-X is somewhat higher) - my point is that I've seen a couple of guys fire that 160 grain bullet from their 270 wsm (on YT) while trying to hit 3000 fps- while not seeing keyholes on the target (at 100yards), and the 160 grain bullet might uncork at a high number under normal loads, but if I was to lower that a bit, that would bring the chance of stability up, closer to optimal, as it leaves the barrel... It would be interesting to try - though it would probably be less expensive to just use the 150grain ABLR that the rifle is made to shoot - but that 9.5 twist rate, with that 160 grain, with a lesser powder load to give me lower fps ... Tempting to test...
Because of the info. But would we get it without Jayden?
Comment for the algorithm ; Man with beard and baseball cap speaks much truth about ballistics.
Love what u guys have done in the prc line just got a 7prc awesome cartridge but ur ammo sucks we need a bonded bullet the eldx comes apart I'm waiting on the federal 170 terminal ascent to come out
How would this twist rate vs bore size be figured for a saboted bullet ?? Faster twist for a smaller bullet is it going to be ok saboted ??
Fantastic job really interesting
Glad you enjoyed it
Here's a question about something I never hear anyone talk about. Does a barrels twist rate affect muzzle velocity?? Does a tighter twist rate cause MV to be reduced?
I like this subject matter. I wanted to ask if there is any concern about matching the bullet spin rate to the natural vibration rate of a rifle barrel? Are the two frequencies so far apart or the amplitude of the barrel vibration so small that it is not a major concern? In the car tire analogy, sometimes the vibration gets worse as you pick up speed, and then starts getting less when you go even faster. Can a rifle barrel vibration and bullet spin be adversely matched?
I'm interested in seeing what comes out of experimenting with extremely fast twist, like 8.6.
I know originally Hornady was involved with that cartridge, so i hope they have some insight.
Is there a meaningful benefit to rifling that increases spin rate as it goes? If think it would encourage a gradual increase which would be kinder to large lead bullets that might deform too easily and resist acceleration more profoundly if pushed hard.
Or it might be a good alternative to really fast rifling so as to reduce overall friction but still result in the proper spin speed upon exiting the barrel.
Interesting topic. Learned alot.
Glad you enjoyed it!
Bruh..... I went school today... Awesome.podcast
Without having all of the fancy tools being talked about here, is there a number range I should be looking for if I am using the Berger Stability tool? Looking at the heavy for caliber 25 cal rifles and playing with altitude and temperature gives me between 1.6 and 2.0 assuming a MV of 3050 and a twist of 1 in 7 with their Target Hybrid slug. Not sire if 1.6 to 2.0 is good or bad
What about gain twist ? Are pistol bbls twist rate too slow with longer copper slugs ?
In the case of the 6mmARC 108gr ELD M projectile, is there a noticeable difference in a barrel that is 1/7 vs 1/7.5? There are many barrels in both twist rate. Which twist rate will perform better?
Explain the reason for an open tip and boat tail bullet for the 6.5 creedmore. What is the advantage of the open tip.
In short, bare bones. Bullets need spin to be stable. for a given caliber, longer bullets need more RPM to stabilize. RPM can be increased by increasing twist rate or velocity. There are math formulas to calculate this, but honestly, I just use the calculator on Berger's website. A Hornday calculator would be nice....
“There’s not a bullet out there that needs a 7 twist” maybe I’m totally wrong here but, badlands precision 135 SBD2 and a couple of the hammer lines of bullet absolutely need a 7 twist or faster in the 6.5 caliber. The badlands are ridiculously long and sleek. I shoot that bullet solely in my 6.5-284. I REALLY wish it was in 4dof @hornadypodcast
I feel like you should have elaborated a bit on this topic of rotational energy. Contrary to what is said in this podcast it does help with terminal effect. How could it not if the bullet stays in the target? The question is just how much.
By my calculations you can get about 5 % extra energy into a subsonic 300 grain bullet by utilizing a 1" twist barrel. Not a lot, arguably not enough to make it worthwhile, but more than a neglible amount.
Info of course!! Jayden is the man though!
Can you show us where 4Dof shows the Stability Factor? I cannot find it in the app or online. Thanks