Corrections as Pointed out by Comments: (Will update as more corrections appear) - The Locking yourself out of Huge Swaths of Content is incorrect. Despite what previous FromSoftware games have done, you actually can do a lot of the content even AFTER beating Mesmer,
I can see lore fans really loving that reveal. I actually did like that fact, although I think I just wanted more info, but that's always a thing in FromSoftware games haha. That and the Miquella stuff was less impressive to me, compared to all the interesting stuff in the base game.
My feeling about the bosses is they're very UNFUN to learn but fun to fight. If that makes any sense. Its like every attack is a gotcha attack, every attack is delayed, every attack has an aftershock effect, every boss has hard to differentiate positional attacks, every boss needs and on and on. Each of these need to be identified (which can be hard for attacks with small tells and attacks being positional), memorize their tells, internalize the delay timing, etc. A lot of movesets are totally unintuitive and remove the reactionary element. Like Bayle freezing midair before dive bombing you. Like nothing about what your seeing can be trusted. And I think thats why a lot of people were reminisce of DS3. Because you could spontaneously react to most attacks instead of being smacked on the back of the head constantly like "why didnt you know he was gonna freeze midair stupid". Hence unfun to learn but fun to fight. Once you internalize the weird ass timing of Messmer's spear uppercut THEN it can be fun Doing a challenge run on Rellana was absolutely miserable. She's quite literally the most complex and layered boss they've ever made.... and I didnt realize it on my first playthrough because I had a high enough blessing level to scrape a win. Its actually crazy how much is going on there. For better and for worse. Also the converse is true in regards to the scadufragments. Its also easy to unintentionally overlevel and be robbed of a good boss fight. Especially in the 2nd half of the game where they start chucking fragments at you like crazy. Romina, Gauis, Sunflower and Midra I ended up killing in 5 tries or less because I had no idea that I shouldn't upgrade my blessing level lol. You spend the whole dlc wondering if its hard or you're underleveled. Wondering if its easy or your overleveled. Its ridiculous. Like Fromsoftware just get me in the ballpark. Its okay if its a little easier or a little harder but steamrolling half thw bosses because I overleveled? Cmon
I think the unfun to learn thing is definitely true. I think for me, even AFTER I learned the bosses enough, there were many that didn't feel all that great to beat. That said, I did get what you were saying with regards to Messmer, as I had a great time and was actually able to beat him pretty quickly (quickly being like within 10 or so tries). Like you though, I'm not sure if that's because I was overleveled at that point with regards to the Scudtree Fragments. And while I hated certain bosses for how weird and unintuitive their movesets were as you mentioned, what I hated more was getting through an entire dungeon and then beating a boss on my first try. As you said, in the latter half of the game, I ran into that with a lot of the optional bosses and Mausoleums.
I guess SOTE was playtested for people like me because the abundance of smithing stones didn't bother me, I got through about half the non Remembrance bosses without any upgrades, and I absolutely just loved the map and lore even more than the base game. Its a big too big just like the base game map, but they didnt really have a choice there since they have to make it feel similar to what they've already done, but even the empty areas to me are total vibes for the most part (worst area is that forest with the Bear Communion boss).
Totally get that. As I mentioned in the video, there was going to be a decent chunk of players that would really enjoy these aspects of the game. I enjoyed SOME of them myself, especially the new weapons, so I think that's totally fair to love the DLC and SOTE. In fact, I wish I had felt the same way :)
@@hardreseto my hope which seems. To be confirmed already is that FS goes on a run of smaller new IPs that don't rely entirely on Miyazaki to helm. He's expressed a desire to see others creators at their company make the games that they want, not just what he wants, which I think is an amazing sign. Opposite of Todd Howard.
Yeah those smithing stones are great if you want to use the new weapons. Yeah, I could buy them, but I don't have a problem with getting a bunch for free.
I don't think players can be divided so simply into just two camps. It's not just that there are players who enjoyed the DLC vs players who didn't. Personally speaking, I absolutely loved the exploration in the DLC. It exceeded my expectations, not only recapturing, but improving on the sense of endless wonder I had playing the base game. Where the DLC really faltered for me, however, was the difficulty, and not because it was either too hard or too easy. Rather, it was incongruent. The regular enemies, field boses, and side-dungeon boses were all easy enough that I never even felt the need to level up my Schadutree Blessings, but the rememberace bosses... those were just built on an entirely different level and were so much harder than anything else in the DLC that trying to fight them often felt like playing an entirely different game. Speaking of Schadutree Fragments, I don't think the scavenger hunt is anywhere near so bad. Especially after the first balance patch, even just slightly over half, 26 out of 50, is enough to get a boost of 85% out of the max 105%. You really don't need all of them, at least not in basic NG difficulty, and because blessing level carries over into NG+, it's simple to finish maxing out there with all the respawned fragments.
I mean, for me it is kinda binary. Overall, I either loved it or felt let down and didn't. I'm sure there is an in between somewhere, but I feel like for fans of the base game, you're more likely to fall into those two camps. A lot of this is generalization based on what I've found online too, but hey, I'm not saying its 100% accurate. Likely only FromSoftware has THAT data. I actually agree with you on difficulty, especially on easy or too hard. There's always stuff you miss out on covering, but I had multiple points where certain side bosses (Gaols, Catacombs) were SUPER easy, likely because I had too many Scudtree Fragments and Blessings at that point. I mean, it may be a question of skill here, but I absolutely felt like I had to have as many fragments as possible for some of the rememberance bosses in the later parts of the DLC.
31:00 I'm going to respectfully challenge this point a bit, but I also want to understand what "huge swathes of content" you're referring to that is being locked upon progressing the Shadow Keep. From my understanding, defeating Messmer only progresses the Hornsents questline and nothing else. Approaching the tower will progress all NPC questlines, but you don’t necessarily miss out on important moments prior that. The NPCs just move to new locations (Freyja, Ansbach) or remain where they are (Leda, Hornsent, Moore, Thiollier) until you interact with them. Im my experience, I was freely able to explore the tower without missing out on questlines because I went too far or fought Messmer. If anything, reaching the tower opens up a swathe of content and new areas. Open to having my mind changed, but I would argue that the Shadow Keep is a return to what made the original Dark Souls trilogies level design so iconic----the verticality, sense of scale as you ascend the tower from both inside and outside, and the interconnectedness with the surrounding area that you mentioned.
I'll honestly admit that I wasn't aware that the questlines for NPCs were still available post Shadow Keep. I always assumed that once you defeated Mesmer a lot of them left the Shadow Keep. So I think that is a huge improvement from past FromSoftware games if true. Appreciate the insight and extra info here! I'll be sure to put this and a few other corrections in a pinned comment!
Very interesting perspective, and thank you for your respectful tone! I personally loved SOTE, and I loved the Consort Radahn fight. I loved how apocalyptic it felt, the idea that you are fighting a full God. The almost comical level of difficulty was something I both expected, and savored. Like you said in the video, I expected a grand "send-off". However I can also absolutely understand why others may be frustrated and turned off by things like that. Elden Ring was my first very Fromsoft game and it was BRUTAL in the beginning, but I grew to become absolutely addicted and obsessed with it. I finished the base game 4 times (3 different characters plus one NG+), and I've finished SOTE three times with three different characters (a bleed build, a mage, and a STR/FAI build).
Right back at you with the respectful comment! Much appreciated! I'm honestly glad to hear that you enjoyed SOTE, and that it hit those high points for you. Like I said, there were aspects that I enjoyed as well, and I do wonder if I'd enjoyed Radahn a bit more if the performance issues hadn't made the fight infinitely harder for me.
@@hardresetoThat might have been one of my saving graces, I am running the game on an Nvidia RTX 3070, a pretty beefy card, and didn't have any framerate or performance issues. But that does suck that's so many other people had those issues.
I loved the expansion. It took me back to my favorite game and required more content than I expected, and I'm sure I missed a ton of stuff. I just wanna go again from the start of the base game to the end of the dlc
That's honestly great to hear. I really wanted that same experience, and wasn't able to get it. Just out of curiosity what build were you playing? And how many times did you play the base game before this? :)
@@hardreseto started out as a samurai and had the Nagakiba for most of my journey. Then I ran the moonveil for a while. And for most of the dlc I was powerstancing two greataxes with the Flaming Strike Ashe of War
Played the basegame once before with 160 hours. I was rocking samurai builds most of the time, my favorite was the Nagakiba. I switched to the Moonveil in the late game. In the DLC I mostly ran a Strength build where I powerstanced 2 Greataxes with the Flaming Strike Ashe of War.
@@lopesrafi99 Nagakiba is an awesome weapon. I believe I used it for a good while, and then switched to Rivers of Blood. Samurai builds are awesome! I haven't tried Duel Wielding Great Axes, but it sounds like a really fun play style. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity and for the comments! :)
@@hardreseto the double axes was unexpectedly good. Good stagger potential, had lots of poise and flaming Strike gave you some powerful AoE. I would also put some faith on my Str build so I can buff up with "golden vow" and "flame grante strength" on difficult fights.
I saw someone describe Elden Ring as FromSoft's Skyrim and now I can't unsee it, especially after they snuck in the Torrent patch for Elden Beast with the DLC patch maybe we should let FromSoft GITGUD unless we want Elden Ring to really be their Skyrim; the last universally beloved game and the tipping point for their worst habits
Someone else said who posted a review said "the worst parts of SotE feel like the best parts of Starfield" and it really hurt my soul that I can't really argue against that. Especially with how it really shows, as you say, the bad habits. The Curseblades are the biggest example to me. I can deal with them, but it just takes me out of it when a scarecrow in a loincloth can poise through jumping, duel-wielding heavy katanas AND can also poisebreak nearly everything short of the Bullgoat set by slapping you with a fucking hollow dinner plate AND can also shoot you around like a loose firework. Everything about how they work feels like the devs are terrified of being accused of making something easy. Because FromSoft games are Hard! It's what they are, dammit! And Bethesda games have loading screens every 2 seconds...
I recall the same video. I will say that Bethesda's fall from grace has been hard to watch. I actually bought a Series X when Microsoft bought Bethesda, expecting to be wowed by Starfield. Like that video you mentioned said though, it was people constantly defending Bethesda after Skyrim that led to a lack of innovation and change for the studio. Feedback from players and critics is really important, especially for the more successful studios. I mean, look at how Cyberpunk 2077 turned things around.
@@hardreseto Wasn't every game Bethesda made post Skyrim constantly panned by fans? Skyrim itself was also panned by Oblivion fans even back when it first came out in 2011 and may even be community consensus today. It's like a Chrono Cross situation where fans are mixed on it yet critics loved it. Same went for Fallout 4 AND by a some extension THREE. And Fallout 76 was one of the most hated and criticized games in the last two decades where videos crapping on it reached millions of views. Fans didn't kill Bethesda. Bethesda killed Bethesda. Not to mention there aren't even that many positive longform ER vids on youtube rn, with Joseph Anderson's initial ER critique being extremely well received, as well as his dlc followup which shared some sentiments. And before that people crapped endlessly on Sekiro for being a glorified rhythm game with no variety. And before that with Ds3 for being a shallow reconstruction of Ds1 that was too easy with bad lore with enemies that had Bloodborne speed. And before that with Bloodborne for the consumable healing system and bad frames, and before that with Ds2... You get my drift. And this was back when From would RARELY nerf bosses or barely even supported these games post launch like they did with ER.
This comment literally came from Joseph Anderson's absolute trash video, he is so wrong with that comparison, there's not a shred of similarity between Skyrim & Elden Ring except that both are open-world games. From Software has always been criticized to oblivion with every game they released, SOTE is no different, even before Skyrim, a lot of people were hating on Oblivion, what made Bethesda bad is themselves, the corporate greed, the AAA Western gaming market cynicism & the inability to improve or change, Elden Ring improved a heck of a lot over Bloodborne & Dark Souls 3, it literally is the biggest departure in From Software's history since Demon's Souls when analyzing its design on a fundamental level. What do you mean by "we should let FromSoft GITGUD?" This is an appalling idea, who is the right person to tell FromSoft how to "Git Gud"?, this is an absolutely ridiculous statement, what if there are people that love Elden Ring & its DLC expansion? (it is the highest rated FromSoft game in history, the highest sales & the most beloved by fans, wins almost all the time in most Souls UA-camrs' polls when compared against Bloodborne, DS3, DS2, DS1 & Sekiro). From Software are always innovating & improving upon their game philosophies, and Shadow of the Erdtree is no different, they're showing no sings of stopping at all, who are you to tell what FromSoft should do next? What if I disagree with your criticism or the things that you want from their next release or anything like that? Am I a fanboy that needs to be shut down because my opinion is different from your God Joseph Anderson? What are you guys talking about? This is an extremely absurd comparison, I cannot believe the Delusions of Grandeur & entitlement has reached this level. There's this very recent video that criticized this "critique" mentality by Gred Glintstone, and it mentioned Joseph Anderson a lot, and I think he absolutely destroyed him in a calm, respectful manner, it is the best video essay I've ever watched about gaming. It must be watched! ua-cam.com/video/Ftk5xMeJito/v-deo.html
regarding the boss design were you said that there are almost no windows to attack these bosses yaa highly disagree that bud. from your rellana example there are multiple things you did wrong, first take off the radagon sorseal it makes you take more damage like use dragoncrest greatshield or the shard of alexander, second there are times in the video were you dodge twice in a panic and dodge backwards. not only are you not in a position to attack her because you are too far away but dodge twice effectively forfeited your turn since dodging a second time takes more time. You should have been figuring out when the combo ends, dodge the last hit into the boss for you to not take damage and also be in a near enough position to attack the boss which is easier with blind spot. you were also not using your weapon skill properly as you were using blind spot too early when the combo did not end. the two overhead shoulder attack can be blind spot, the carian sovereignty attack can be blind spot, the thrust attack can be blind spot. again really don't want to come across as saying "git gud" but if you are saying that the bosses do not give you an opportunity to attack as a melee build that is false as i've done multiple melee builds with zweihander cragblade build and straight sword square off build and they performed well enough if you take the time to lab the boss' moveset. now if your main complaint with these bosses is that it is not fun process or not worth time investment to learn these bosses then i can totally understand but if you are going to be saying that the bosses give you almost no windows to attack that is something ii cannot agree with. Also don't want to sound like a huge elden ring glazer so i'll also say that i do agree that the world feels empty, performance issues suck, rewads for exploration are hit or miss
@@davidschulz2636 again if you do not like how overcomplicated the bosses are or how much time and effort it is to learn then no arguments here from me, I respect your opinion. BUT if you are going to be saying that the boss has almost no window to attack with melee builds that is false which he specifically stated that in the boss design part. He should have said something like " I did not like the learning process of these boss fights" or "I think that It is just too tedious for me to learn" something along those lines instead of saying that the bosses give you no window to attack or that the bosses has super long combo strings. Its all subjective at the end of the day, some people i know like how complicated these bosses are while others find it tedious, no right or wrong answers for that.
I think I actually might've made a mistake by including footage of my earlier attempts. I actually spent a good day on Rellana learning her move sets and labbing her. That said I think my last few attempts where I did learn how to dodge her and get an attack in were better. Blindspot was inconsistent for me, mostly because of the performance issues, which I think might be related to those attack windows. In the end, in some of those windows you mentioned, I'd get one attack in, do a little bit of damage, do a huge round of dodges (and yes double dodge doesn't work, your stamina goes down too quickly AND you can run into another attack). And maybe "non-existent" was exaggerating a bit, but even compared to Malenia in the base game, I felt like the windows were so small, for multiple bosses. The only time I got to sucessfully get massive damage and a bleed proc on Rellana was when she was transitioning to her second phase. And it is worth noting, that despite my experience with Soulsborne and Souls likes, I'll freely admit I'm not very good haha. I aspire to play the games with a level of skill though, so I guess the process of getting to play skilled felt a lot more punishing this time around than Base Elden Ring (let alone games like Sekiro and Lies of P). Thanks for the comment and perspective! I'm not expecting to be 100% right about everything, as a lot of this analysis has to do with my personal experience and what I've observed online. :)
@@davidschulz2636 I think the issues get more complicated with the performance issues. The tells are a lot less telegraphed, and it really is just memorization at that point for me. The exam analogy isn't too far off.
My main goal since the main game is exploring, that's why I can maintain my enjoyment even bosses are harder to fight as long as there are still more places to explore. And for this reason, I still stuck with the last boss until today lol
I'm in the camp that got the best experience from the DLC and it consolidated Elden Ring as my favorite game. I felt like it improved in a lot of aspect : map design, art direction, music, weapons, npc quest, boss design, lore to name a few. The world was a wonder to explore and I naturally wanted to search every details and uncover all its secrets. I would agree that the good items rewards were spread fine. But I mostly had a laugh when opening a chest with some stones in it. Wasn't that different when you'd find mushrooms and flowers in the base game. The new weapons and amors were top notch and every build archetype could easily add 2 to 4 weapons to their arsenal. I think because of the difficulty, most people might have been discouraged to try them out. Adding learning a new move set in that environment feels like adding to the task. But those like me who invested and experimented with them were greatly rewarded with stronger weapons and a more adapted play-style for the bosses. Some exemples : fighting Rennala with the Mylady (the Wing Stance leap dodging some of her attacks) , the Great Dragonkiller Katana against the drakes and Bayle (Ashe of War repositions you to hit their heads), the backhand blades for Mydra etc. That would also make fighting the reused enemies fresh or at least, less of a drag. To your point that some of the play-styles are invalidated in some boss fights (your exemple was Dex and Rellana), I would agree but would like to bring up that it was also present in the base game, just not for every build archetypes. I played a magic build on my first try at Elden and when you get to the Academy, it's a nightmare. The entire donjon, enemies and bosses make all your level investment useless. Zombies steals your mana on grab, everyone has so much magic resist, you're forced into using a shitty sword with 10 str and you can't even re-spec cause it's gated behind the main boss. All I want to say is that Fromsoft is not shy on presenting a challenge that will give different experiences in difficulty depending on builds but will give such diversity in options to tackle them and propose such variety in encounters that those will be ironed out on the overall experience. I did four full completions of the game with Strength, Magic, Faith and Dex. They all have very different difficulty spikes, counters and advantages but all have the tools to beat the game and even borderline break and trivialise it. The core of the difficulty in this games always been attached with acquiring knowledge of the game mechanics and learning the move sets of enemies. I feel like this DLC really caters to the players that balance those two aspects. From what I've seen from other players, the ones with methodic and careful exploration, reading items description, engaging with the npc's quest line had a far better experience that the ones that rushing to the donjon to fight the boss. While those two types of players could have a similar enjoyable experience in the base game with the ability to farm runes to catch up, the DLC doesn't have this option and tie the power progression to exploration. On the Scadu blessings, I don't think it's a perfect system but it did fix their main issue about over levelled characters tackling the dlc and reseted everyone to zero. The fact to have to hunt them on other play through can be annoying but is not different as gathering Tears, Seeds and Stones in the base game. It also brings the advantage to pace your own difficulty curve on those repeated runs. It does make the game difficulty in a fragile balance. Those missing on blessings, with the pace and aggressivity of the bosses here, will have a very frustrating experience. Especially the ones that refuse to abandon a challenge and come back later. While it was manageable in the base game, the DLC really punish this. An other exemple is the Leda fight where if you engage with the quest lines you can summon your allies against hers. It again rewards the players that engaged fully in the exploration and lore. You can either end up with a frustrating gank fight where you have to face 3 to 4 npcs or an explosive narrative showdown between all the characters you met in your adventure in a great battle of 8. The difference of experience depending on your approach is drastic. To touch a bit on my feelings on the bosses, I had a blast with most of them. Mesmer, Mydra and Bayle are the peak of Fromsoft for me and even surpass base game bosses. Some enjoyable mentions are the Lion, Rellana and Putrid, they all have minor issues that keep them from greatness (respectively cam issues, long combos and running away too frequently). Romina and Metyr suffer from being really cool design but a bit of a let down. Gaius being the only black sheep having very frustrating hit-boxes. For the most part all those boss offered me a great challenge taking around 30 tries on average witch I expect from a post-game DLC. Keeping the late game intensity with less frustration (Fire giant, Godskin duo and Maliketh are for me exemple of frustrating end game fights). I do agree that the difficulty curves on them are more steep. Boss rushes you out the fog gate and you're lucky if you survive a few seconds in the ring with them on your first attempts. But it made it even more satisfying when i ended up finally beating them at the end. The stakes felt raised without going into unfair territory. Talking about unfair, Radahn is for sure the most disliked thing in the DLC but I kinda like his fight. I know I'm on the minority on that one and I'm a weirdo that liked Elden Beast too. But to express where im coming from I feel like this fight has to be compare to Malenia. Being the great challenge that borderline on sadistic that suppose to be the ultimate test of the game. I felt that Radahn was an improvement on that concept. Malenia makes me frustrated to no end mostly because of Waterfall that makes every moment in the fight about that move, witch means that when I beat her it feels more like luck than skills. Radahn on the other hand felt like a real test of rolling, patience and build optimisation. He did had some problems. The patch he received does fix the issues I feel. It is unfortunate that he was released in that state and that It will be most people experience of that fight. Same with the performance problems. I didn't have much problems playing on console except for the Radahn fight but I fixed it by changing a few settings. PC versions seems to be the people the most affected, but it hasn't been a strong suit of FromSoft in the past. They should for sure be more careful with that in the future. I think the strongest point against the DLC success is here. Thanks to anyone who followed that rambling. Great video, you got nice production value, some great research on the topic and your opinion always feels framed in a subjective and fair way. Even if our experience and opinion on the DLC are far apart, I understand all your points and where you coming from. It's a bit rare in the space right now where people seem more interested to bash the game for views and I respect that. Peace
Appreciate the long and detailed comment! Lots of cool insight there! I'll start with the thing that really stood out to me, your experience of being a magic caster in Base Elden Ring. Now that I recall, there were a bunch of people who got stuck at Renalla in Base Elden Ring because of their builds. I think for my case, like you said, there were less builds that ran into that issue in the base game. If anything I'd say that's a valid critque of the base game, and I can see why some people disliked even the base game, which I feel is a lot more accommodating to a lot of different builds/play styles. I won't disagree with you on difficulty in FromSoftware games always being about lack of knowledge. Learning and getting more familiar with the world, dungeons, locations, enemies and systems has always been at the core of their games, and Elden Ring and even SOTE is no different. I think my issues just stem from being one of those people that had their particular playstyle becoming "invalid" or at the very least really difficult to keep going. I could've definitely switched to some of those builds I mentioned, but I really took to the Dex/Backhand Blades playstyle, and wanted to play the game that way. I think the difficulty of the bosses does expect that you're an expert in your particular build and weapons, so bosses like Rellana can really punish you because you're not as familiar with the new weapons. I was definitely more adept with the Backhand Blades in the later stages of the game, than early on. For certain bosses, I switched to a Medium Armor/Milady/WingStance setup and that did work, but again, I was never a fan of having to do that. That said, I totally 100% get why you loved the DLC, and I can definitely see why. I think you just took on the bosses in a more interesting, explorative way than I did, and tried out a lot more different things. I think for me the performance issues also made certain boss fights really hard (Dancing Lion, Rellana, Midra). Appreciate the long comment and insight! Honestly glad you liked the video, and your response is exactly what I was looking for when I made it! Thank you!
Totally agreed. Really loved the few weapons I tried. I do hope that people who play SOTE, experiment with the weapons because they are easily some of From Software's best.
Idk the only bosses that gave me real trouble was Mesmer and Promised Consort. I switched my build up to meet each boss and my play style. Fire for the sunflower (flame fall upon them, melts him), lightning for bayle. Torrent makes the gauis fight ez. Even promised consort, I should've just switched to a tank build it would've been wayyy easier. For most people this DLC requires you to use all the new toys Elden Ring gives you. That being said these bosses are the most fun I've had in Elden Ring. Makes Malenia seem easy.
Interestingly Mesmer was probably the easiest of the Rememberance bosses for me, and the one I really enjoyed fighting. I think the fact that the game required you to switch up your build is definitely something I could see people enjoy. I like playing in a particular style, so being forced to shift my entire playstyle for a boss, feels very different from base Elden Ring. I kept one build (Dex/Bleed) the whole way through and was able to get through it all.
@@hardreseto ya I never had to change my whole build. But I would look to my options for range, stagger, fire damage, etc with my build, horse/no horse. Which I mean my build was faith/dex which I'll admit is the most versatile build. I'd also use items where I thought it would help. Like for promised consort I equipped meat dumplings, warming stones, and pots for my mimic to use. But ya now I'm doing it with a bleed build no summons. But doesn't mean I'm not gonna explore my ranged, stagger, and aoe options within that build.
Nice video! Love to see people talking about SOTE. I kept myself mostly blind about SOTE before launch and kept myself in the dark until I was done. When I emerged from my cave to see that it was controversial I was quite shocked. I absolutely LOVED it, it’s my favorite thing any game company has ever produced, taking the crown from the base game which was my favorite before. I think it’s fascinating how different people can just have such different opinions. For example you talked about the shadow keep being a nexus point for the other areas as a bad thing, but that was one of my absolute favorite things. I can also say that I had no trouble completing all the NPC quest lines blind, as to me it was obvious that fighting major bosses like Messmer would progress things. I really appreciated all of the upgrade materials because I was constantly trying out new weapons. I also liked the cookbooks because of the lore descriptions and I did use a fair few of the hefty pots. I never found all of the scadutree fragments, fighting the final boss at 19 instead of 20, but I was able to beat him and he was actually one of my favorite bosses of all time, though it was very hard (about 1500 deaths). I found every single boss to be very hard, but still extremely enjoyable; my least favorite was Gaius because of no unique music, and my favorite was actually the dancing lion repeat fight with the basilisks, mechanically that is my favorite fromsoft boss. I found the vistas jaw dropping, the secrets wonderful, the lore fascinating, and the new enemies to be a great challenge. I recognize that I am a bit of an outlier in that I love bashing my head against a boss for hours and hours. I’ve been a long time souls fan, and I have always loved the challenge. Even when fighting the final boss for almost a month, I was absolutely euphoric the whole time, enjoying every attempt. I played on NG+ and used a longsword with spinning slash for the majority of the DLC, including the final boss, and did not use any summons. I did use some incantations as well, such as lighting spear, lord’s divine protection, and black flame protection. Just thought I should mention my build as it may be coloring my opinion in one way or another.
I mean honestly, that's grand to hear. I almost envy you because I "Wanted" and "hoped" to feel what you did from SOTE. I think skill and just general ability to play From Software's games, also factors into it. Reading your comment and experiences with the DLC, I can just unequivocally say that you're better at the games than I am. I've never been able to handle NPC Questlines in FromSoftware blind, so that in itself, is impressive to me. As for the bosses, I actually share your love for figuring out the bosses. Its just in this case, I felt like my tools and build weren't a great fit for the battles I was facing. I absolutely positively loved Sekiro in the same way you described. I think I spent 3 days trying to beat the Secret Owl Boss, and had a grand time, every moment of it. In the DLC, The only fight I loved was Mesmer, but that one was pretty easy, so I can't say that didn't color my opinion. Honestly, after your comment and a few others, I'm thinking of trying out the DLC with a different build and seeing if some of my issues with at least the bosses are mitigated. Also, Thank you for the nice comment!
@@hardresetoWow really fast reply damn. With regards to the NPC quest lines, I was REALLY thorough with exploration. I would fully explore every map section before collecting the next fragment, and then fully explore that one, always keeping legacy dungeons for last. I did miss two of the forager brood, but other than that found every NPC at every location they appear. Another thing that really helped was taking notes. I would take note of any interesting architectural feature or lore description, and any NPC dialogue. In total my first DLC play through ended up being about 300 hours, about 50 of those being on the final boss. I actually only just recently finished it.
I also fought pre-patch Radahn, and yeah the double slash was hard to learn. I actually beat him a while ago, but was stuck for a long while trying to find the way into Hinterland.
@@hardresetoThis is going to sound so shocking, but I actually didn’t like Sekiro nearly as much as the other souls games. Mechanically yeah it was insanely impressive but I just didn’t find the aesthetic or lore as interesting to me. I also didn’t like having a set character, but I do recognize that some people love that.
DLC bosses are much more fluid. Initially it feels like they keep attacking without break, but then you find a break eithin the cycle and it becomes a fluid unbroken pattern of movement. You dance!
I feel like the dance felt a lot more fluid in the base game of Elden Ring. That said, I get the whole idea of bating out enemies and getting them to mess up. Its pretty common in fighting games, and there's no stamina meter there. That said, I feel like the dance can't work if both partners can't keep up the same rhythm.
@@-Cybinthe one time when that phrase actually should be used. some ppl just want an easy experience and don't want to get good. these people just need to learn the bosses instead of complaining. I personally didn't like the dlc tooooo much bc the exploration and legacy dungeons sucked. the bosses were peak
I disagree with majority of the points raised in this video. - I'm not seeing this big divide that you're talking about, all I'm seeing is the "critique" channels farming on it just like they used to do in the past with the base game, are there disappointed base game ER players (which is weird in & of itself), yes there are, but they do not make up anywhere near what you're alluding to, it's mostly been rated very highly on Steam (Chinese reviews influenced the ratings, 35% of those ratings were due to the implementation of an Anti-Cheat system), Metacritic & just the fan reception has been mostly good, so I don't see it being THAT divisive. I'm a huge ER fanboy & I LOVED SOTE to death. Are there issues? Yes, there are, but even the base game had issues so... - Also the core pillars of Elden Ring's base game like difficulty & exploration have always been lambasted in the past due to its harder bosses & enemies & much more complex combat rhythm compared to older Souls games, something the older Souls fans didn't like at the beginning, now they like it, exploration has always been the best in ER base game, and SOTE is no different, albeit a bit worse if I'm being honest, but it still delivers on its foundations extremely well. SOTE is not harder than base game, if you collected the Scadutree Fragments things would fare much better for the player, after all, it's the exploration rewards. - Managing Scadutree fragments to see if it's too low or too high has always been the case for ALL Souls games, don't tell me you didn't ask yourself that question when you were leveling up in base game, or exploring the world map before fighting Margit or Mohg or Rykard, c'mon now, it's nothing different, you always had an idea of how weak or strong you are depending on your encounters against bosses or enemies, Scadutree wasn't a very well-received system by many fans but they grew to like it now, it's a genius idea, your character stays the same without any hindrance BUT you have to explore in order to get stronger, the game even displays the numbers in front of you in gold-colored text, you don't have to collect all of them, once you reach level 12-13 (which all of them can be collected BEFORE you reach Messmer), you'll pretty much not notice any significant differences, if I were to add something to it, it would be to have more of it in the world, It's a perfectly good system overall. - You not engaging with the new weapons is also a consistent theme even in base game, if players found their 1 or 2 weapons that they think are great, then they'll stick to them, you can't put the blame on SOTE, older Soulsborne games have always been like that, that's on the players if they don't want to change, if anything, most of the new weapons after the latest patched have been buffed in power & speed substantially, and the DLC gives you a lot of new smithing stones it's like the developer is asking you to experiment with the new weapons, because they're extremely satisfying & powerful too! - I disagree with your whole "updated combat" section of the video, SOTE's bosses absolutely work with ANY build just like base game, they're just harder, they're only as hard as end-game bosses from the base game, except for Consort Radahn maybe as he's the outlier, because he'll destroy the Spirit Ashes rather quickly & IDK how he'll fare with magic/spell users...but none of the bosses are unfair, they're perfectly fair, with some quirks like a bit of camera issues, Bayle's fire bouncing off the rock walls then hitting you sometimes, it's the small stuff really, you just need to try harder just like you tried harder against bosses like Malenia, Maliketh, Godfrey & Radagon. - I also completely disagree with your "Boss Design" section of the video, all I remember from people around ER's base game was that the bosses have "infinite combos" "unreactable attacks" "bad delayed attacks" "input reads" "they break the rules of the game" "infinite stamina" and all that misinformation crap, when in reality they're just much more complex mechanically so panic rolling like players used to do in DS3 didn't work, and the players are equally equipped to handle those encounters pretty fairly, mentioning Midra as an example of a boss harder than base game makes me question this whole section, he is literally much easier than most main bosses in base game & has nowhere near the aggression of Morgott or Maliketh or Mohg or even Godfrey, bosses in ER are much more complex in general, and input reads have existed since DS1, then built upon them in BB, DS3, Sekiro & finally Elden Ring, it's nothing new my guy, and I can't believe you said Rellana is harder than Malenia, yes Rellana has poise so she doesn't stagger but so did any other boss like Mohg or Morgott or Maliketh or Messmer, she has a BUNCH of openings inside her combos, yes she works for a colossal sword user, I'd argue it's even better than any other build or weapon type, that goes for all bosses in the DLC, including Radahn (post-nerf). Main bosses in SOTE have LESS input reads than base game bosses. Also the DLCs have always focused on difficulty, this has been consistent since Dark Souls 1 DLC, Bloodborne DLC, Dark Souls 3 DLC, they've always been harder, it's nothing new my guy.
to add to this, i want to give a statistic on the scadutree fragments. after blessing level 12, you only get a 1.29% damage / damage negation buff per level on average. it drops down super hard. the later levels also require 3 fragments for each level, instead of 1 or 2. to put this into perspective: collecting THE ENTIRE SECOND HALF of all the dlc's fragments, is equally as effective as just casting golden vow once or twice a bossfight. past level 12 it really isn't that neccesary at all
@@glisteninggames2981 Yeah I was shocked when I knew that, so this goes against his arguments that he presented even harder now. Thank you for this valuable info addition to my comment. ❤
So I've seen a few comments mention this, but I'd say I'm very new to Souls discourse and just making videos on UA-cam in general. I've consumed them before of course, but I honestly didn't see these "critiques" and "issues" with base Elden Ring until very recently. So, to me, a lot of this is new. I didn't have these issues with the base game of Elden Ring, or any of From Software's previous games (Besides DS2, which I dropped half way through). I think your disdain for these comments and ideas is valid, especially if you've heard them before. I hadn't, and my intention wasn't to add to an echo chamber, or mislead people. If anything, this video is meant for people who've already played the game, I warn everyone pretty early on in the video that there's full spoilers ahead, so I don't think this video is meant as a review. And it was never my intention to farm engagement or anything like that. If anything I debated even making this video, because the more succesful videos on the channel are ones where I'm praising a game, not pointing out its issues. The intent was just to add to the discussion here, and put out how I felt and analyzed the game. I hope its interesting to some people, and if its not, that's okay. I fully expected this video to not do well because its controversial. Appreciate the discussion and your views, even if we disagree!
@@hardreseto Oh I'm sorry, I'm really sorry for assuming otherwise, rarely we see people like you being this understanding, don't feel bad, after all, you may not like some of the mechanics that ER bosses have or maybe you prefer linear design over the open-world. At least my comment & others let you know about a couple of things, I just hated this discourse that was echo-chamber'd hard, people used to call ER's bosses are straight up unfair & boring, and that obviously angered me because they were just wrong & decided to go with everyone that jumped the shark because it was a different game mechanically compared to DS3, that's all.
Some enemy designs in SOTE are disastrous. What's sad is they didn't really have to up the diffculty for it to be an enoyable game, and they did the worst they could have, which is "make enemies do more shit" It feels legit miserable playing a caster in the DLC, it either severely tunnels your playstyle, or your experience. Their idea of upping difficulty was to give base enemies insane poise and 10-hit combos you need to wait out before doing anything. And objectively terrible hitboxes.
I felt largely the same, especially when it came to the bosses and stronger enemies. I hadn't played a caster or magic build in the DLC, so it seems like purely caster is a rough time as well huh? Definitely interesting to learn. I guess hybrid builds were the way to go.
@@hardreseto I went from having a full hard capped, Death Staff caster with Death rancor melting base bosses to needing 5 minutes to beat a black knight in NG+2, bcs of their ridiculous shields, and it's not like much else worked wonders. About the same for curseblades since you have no time for long casts. Basically most spells take forever to kill most things in this DLC. And of course it creates the usual problem of having to resort to the 2-3 spells that can be used under pressure, Night comet, helix etc, for 90% of the run. Being easier to die as a mage is one thing and fair, but completely defeating the purpose of glass canons is another. imo, no upside to playing a mage in DLC compared to playing say a pure strength colossal wielder that only spams Lion Claw. It's basicaly mindless casting, only pandering to Miyazaki's cringe power fantasies.
I definitely understand both sides. I played the base game heavily about a year after it came out and just finished the dlc over this passed weekend. As a whole it definitely left me wanting more, but the moment-to-moment beats were amazing. Overall I'd say that it's worth playing through
Honestly glad to hear you enjoyed the game. For me there were definitely moments where I enjoyed the game, but there were a lot of moments that just didn't click with me, unlike the base game where I was enthralled all the way through my 200 hours with the game.
I f*ed my playthrough because I progressed while trying to discover the map, and accidentally missed a bunch of the questline checkpoints or w/e. Really miffed about it, since that's what I play for. _Maybe_ I'll replay it once, at some point. Gigantic _maybe_ though.
I am really sorry to hear that. While its not as bad as Base game Elden Ring, it IS still pretty easy to mess up questlines thanks to the Shadow Keep. I would be pretty soured by the experience if I had accidentally triggered something that killed my questlines, and hence constantly kept my PS5 auto-synch off so I could reset if I needed to.
My two takes are: Shadow of the Erdtree should've been a standalone expansion, ala Dragon Age Origins: Awakening. Preferably with a fresh character at a mid-game starting level. Your character's integration into the story and this adventure's (lack of) integration into the main quest really makes the expansion mess with the game's cohesion. (The best variant I heard on this take was that the base game should also have been split into two games, which I cannot agree enough with, as it would have allowed for the player character's capabilities to scale up between games) and Shadow of the Erdtree doesn't really have it's own issues. Rather, it amplifies all of Elden Ring's base game, the good and the bad. Every issue in the expansion is also found in the base game, and every amazing part of it as well, just in the Land of Shadows they are exagerrated. The weapon movesets and diversity is better, the camera is now your main opponent up from a side-threat, The "modern-open-world" archetype's issues with lack of meaningful rewards and generic micro-scale interactions is on full display, the world's level design feels amazing. The boss roster is incredibly unimpressive but the highlights are S tier.
I actually really like the idea of SOTE being a standalone expansion. Would've likely worked nicely and I honestly think, given how big this was, they could have released it individually. That said, I think there are certain things that SOTE relies on from the base game. I'm not sure I agree with splitting the base game up. While that COULD be done and there was definitely enough content in there for two games, part of Elden Ring's wonder is the size of the game AND the fact that it maintains a very high level of quality throughout. As for SOTE not having its own set of issues, I do agree that it amplifies certain issues of the base game, but also does some things less well than the base game did. I agree on weapons, that was the best part of the DLC. And everything else you mentioned is hard to argue with here. Agreed!
As an Invader I found it mildly disappointing. I think the bosses and areas are cool, but I was really holding out for some solo host invasions zones, an increase of player totals to 6, bell bearings for everything (why stop at string?) a taunter's tongue rework, PvP incentives, most of all I was really hoping for covenants. A bunch of the weapons are fun but they were very obviously not PvP tested. It was *soooooooooo* fun getting insta-slept by shotgun crossbows right into a riposte.
Yeah I never even considered Invasions/PVP because I honestly didn't interact with that part of the game too much (I did it more in base Elden Ring). I also remember certain PVP players/content creators really hating some of the weapons in PVP until they were nerfed a bit. Backhand Blades Swift Slash had quite a few clips online when the game came out haha.
I'm all for critique of any product, no matter how loved it is! I do highly disagree with one point - you criticize that SOTE boss designs 'do not allow for a variety of playstyles', and claim that base game ones do. However, all criticisms you give definitely apply to base game bosses! Certain builds trivialize specific bosses. Summoning makes some bosses erratic, and buffs their health to great degrees. I personally don't see a difference between SOTE, and the first time base game was released. The criticisms here remind me very much of Malenia & Maliketh criticisms a few years back - people used to say word-by-word what you say here, but about the base game.
I have heard the issues people had with Malenia and Maliketh. That said, I personally didn't encounter them, and I actually used Malenia as an example and compared her to Rellana in the video. I think for me, Malenia was balanced by the fact that she had enough weaknesses to counter act her strengths, and you could potentially over level yourself and make her pretty easy. (A lot of people beat Malenia within 3-4 tries, and it took me about 5-10 I think? Really quick for a Souls boss that's supposed to be hard). Maybe those issues existed in the base game, and maybe my build and playstyle (I was primarily bleed in the base game) worked to my advantage there, but I felt like even MY builds (I had three in rotation, between a Milady+wing Stance, a Rivers of Blood Bleed Build AND a Dex/Bleed/Backhand Blades build) came out to be pretty useless against a ton of the bosses in SOTE. Maybe SOTE's issue is that the bosses are simply harder and the solutions to take them down and the viable amount of builds, are a lot less and narrower in terms of scope.
@@hardreseto Your experience is valid. Over-levelling isn't a strategy to beat a boss... but that aside, I can agree that harder bosses leads to a widening of the gap between your average build and one that would be particularly effective. However, I'll die on the hill that all builds are viable when built to support the weapons they use. If someone thinks their build isn't viable, they are either searching to cheese through the most fun parts of the game, or are simply in an area they need to avoid until they progress more. I don't think SOTE has any issues in regards to bosses/builds/similar.
@@STELEDAIM overleveling is a strategy, wtf you talking about? Any amount of power accumulation is the same principle. In fact it's a quality of experience strategy. Having more dmg per instance is the difference between having to wait through the same boring chain 20 times, over 10 times. Also, the most viable builds especially in SOTE are what'd be considered cheese builds. Heavy load+shield+antspur strat, Strength AoW spam, good ol Bloodhounds etcetc. Black knights invalidate like most spells with their resistances to the point its ridiculous how much easier it is to end them with a str build, and these are basic mobs. Meanwhile facing furnaces with anything other than pest threads or similar is the one of the most miserable experiences in gaming. Why is that? Just unimaginative solutions to the question of enjoyable difficulty.
@@JohnYannoulas Leveling up to an appropriate point for a boss = strategy. Overlevelling = cheese. In my eyes, cheese is anything that makes the game easy to the point at which one does not need to learn enemy movesets. Yes, the builds you mention are "viable", but avoiding them would make the game more fun for the average player. I don't mind Furnaces & Black knights being inversely difficult depending on your class being melee / magic. No frustration = no reward That said, if you truly think that the difficulty feels artificial and see it as an unimaginative solution, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. What would you do to make each of those enemies truly difficult for all builds, without relying on high resistances or health pools?
@@STELEDAIM the problem with that logic is there's no precise cut-point and people would argue on the distinctions as well. Your logic basically paints anything other than an RL1 bare fist no armor build a "cheese", since all elements of power progression eventually serve to make bosses less of a hassle, to get you through the fight as such, and it'd be pretentious to say 99% of players don't derive their satisfaction from dominating a boss with builds that distinctly fulfil some kind of this power fantasy. Even RL 1 runs make use of broken weapons bcs it'd be just plain unrproductive and boring not to, so like it or not this is a concession the playerbase makes daily, without even having to spell it out. Frustration isn't of a single colour and it can derive from excitement or plain disillusion, which is what a lot of enemies in the DLC cause. I don't know if you enjoy being one shot by a furnace grab attack with its plain dysfunctional hitbox, or being stuck in an animation from flymen grab attacks for like 5 seconds, before having to evade the next one, or Gaius' hitbox being so needlessly extended it basically "teaches" players it's randomly unavoidable, but you personally enjoying that doens't make it a sensible design element, if anything it promotes disengagement, when the "lesson" it teaches you is that X enemy will kill you with zero interactibility, or that Y enemy will waste a ton of your time. When game criticism used to make sense, a game making its content less worthwhile to engage with used to be a point of subtraction. Sadly, cult-like social dispersion and trends have made people think everything this franchise shits out is a "feature". The death of rational thinking in real time.
If I had a Nickel for every time a small UA-camr made a very on-Point Review of SotE that, altho many of my Opinions are quite different, still had me agreeing with the majority of it... I would have 2 Nickels. Which isnt alot but its weird that it happened twice. Warning! Great Treasure ahead!
Haha, I'm glad to be the second instance of that. Also, the fact that you see validity in a lot of the video despite having different opinions, is honestly the best result for me. Thanks for the comment!
8:01 "How do you design a game that gives that same sense of wonder, discovery & accomplishment that's lived & breathed your game?" There are absolutely ways, especially when we're talking matters outside the challenge. Better questlines with more meaningful choices (we had more of that here so props to the team who designed that, where whoever you help or go against influences which allies you'll have in the final Leda fight) , exploration always has ways (some dungeons were awesome, with spike traps, hand placed enemies in strategic spots, avoiding death blight staring immortal enemies, etc) , and difficulty... that's harder but there are definitely ways. You can add gimmicks, while not making the fight ENTIRELY about the gimmick & leaving it as an option for whoever wants to use it, that way also making bosses be approacheable with a more diverse set of builds cause some builds could suck vs the a particular boss, but they could be well equipped to pull off the gimmick to aid them vs the boss. And the sky's the limit here, cause you can get very creative with each. Since we're talking about raising the challenge for the improving playerbase too, make the gimmicks also have consequences if you try yet fail them. Heck, I actually wish there was a system like that for summons, that way I'd actually wanna use 'em more cause I like the concept of you & an ally vs a demigod or outerwordly creature, but not with the way summons (most anyway, I sometimes enjoy using Shadowheart~ I mean Latenna the Abinauric), were implemented. Yes, everyone plays how they want, but it'd be disingenuous to not look at most of 'em as the "reduce difficulty" option, which also contradicts Miyazaki's speech about not wanting to lower the difficulty ~ the summons do just that! But had they did something like say, offer a consequence when spirit summoning, like say if it dies, you suffer a debuff for the rest of the fight , the debuffs all also being specific to various summons, thus also adding more lore & identity to each, suddenly u'd have a lot more nuance to them than "it makes the game easier" - some of the more interesting builds play out like this, where u'r OP if you use it well, but failing to use it well might make you feel weaker than if u'd play with a simpler build (need more like this, IMO). You gain power via an aly, but have to play around that power cause failure means u'll be in a worse spot than solo - a fair & dynamic trade-off I'd say. I'm sure talented gave devs could come up with great ideas here, alas, it didn't happen. Even the power level thing, they could also like... change the way their hardcaps work, which if there was anytime for it, the last piece of content we'll see of this game via a dlc was it. Why must str,dex,int,faith, etc cap out at 80? Why not unlock a 99 cap? Why must vigor be god-awful after 60 and not allow players to go beyond? In unlocking these caps, build variety would also increase. U'd actually have a true glass cannon vs a tanky char, instead of every late game char running 60 vig (and if you don't, u'r rly nerfing your char). Mby add armor upgrades too, that way you get the dmg % negation of the fragments to not get 1-2 shot by every DLC boss. Great vid anyway. I still enjoyed the DLC lots but ngl, I struggle to find reason to wanna replay it, lol. My fav part of it was something I already have now, which are what you said - the weapons, aows, spells, the deflect hard tear... (BLESS THIS THING AND WHOEVER AT FROM THOUGHT OF ADDING IT) - but I'm more eager to play with those vs base game content than DLC, cause base game's just more fun, hah. Same for recipes. I did enjoy exploring to some degree too, but it was until realizing there wasn't much to find, so once the hope I held on to keep me enthusiastic to was gone, and now as I look at the whole DLC in retrospective, I question why I even explored every inch of it and rly dont feel like going there again. Oh quickedit but lastly, great discussion on the Malenia vs Rellana fight. Malenia, despite her notorious rep, due to her defined weaknesses, comes off as the much more prefered fight for me - I always am enthusiastic to see what strat or build I'll use next vs her. Flip or pancake her? Rykard & Death rancors spam from afar? Burn her with fiery incants while knocking her around? All that & more works well, and she feels like she reacts to what you did. Rellana just wails away at you endlessly regardless of what you do. On top of no cutscene nor dialogue lines - she'll be remembered EXCLUSIVELY for her difficulty, nothing else.
First of all, let me say that you bring some serious insight to the discussion here, so thank you! I do agree that the questlines were more straightforward this time and had more of an impact on the main story, which was awesome to see. That's one definite improvement over the base game, where I felt like a lot of Side quests felt inconsequential to the main plot. Getting to decide your allies and enemies not only in the Leda fight, but even the final boss fight, was cool. Its just sad that the actual plot stuff around Miquella was just kind of a let down. I really like your idea of gimmicks that are optional. Base Elden Ring already did this with the Serpent Weapon and Rykard! I would've loved to see more of that stuff in SOTE, and it would've definitely varied up things quite a bit. I think your comments on Risk and Rewards are pretty solid, and I never thought of summons in that way. For me, Summons DOES feel like an easy mode, which is why I only used summons when there was a quest reason (aka Bayle), and otherwise really stuck to going solo (which I get is harder, but where I feel like I actually am interacting with the boss rather than letting my summon act as a decoy). I actually said in my video that I didn't think raising the level caps would've worked, but you actually convinced me otherwise. You are totally right. At higher levels, you kind of default to certain caps whether you like it or not. Having low Vigor is not really an option, so being able to raise those caps would've most definitely led to more build diversity. I honestly wonder if that would've worked better than the Scadutree Fragment system, although I'm sure that would make the base game really easy to beat. Totally agreed on the Deflecting Hard Tear too btw, LOVED that. I checked it out fairly late, but I WISH they had just made that a default part of your move set. Maybe the timing window didn't need to be as forgiving, but it definitely added to some fun moments, and the Sekiro player in me was really happy. That said I had invested in a Dex Build around the Backhand blades and stuck mostly to that. Glad you liked the video and the comparison with Malenia. I too really enjoyed Malenia, and definitely feel like she was a really well designed boss. Plus the cutscenes and dialogue really helped set the mood. Its sad that a lot of the Rememberance bosses in SOTE, just kinda appear and don't have any personality or dialogue.
41:09 These DLC bosses are certainly aggressive and rage inducing, especially Radahn and Miquella, but I don’t necessarily see it as a design flaw. (Except for Radahn and Miquella i'm not upset that they toned it back in the patch) Something I discovered while struggling and cursing at Gaius that made it click was that the bosses will react not only to our actions like healing or buffing, but also our positions relative to them. The bosses will course correct mid-combo in response to your position. Gaius taught me this when I realized at the end of one of his long combos, he would predictably follow-up with an attack depending on where I stood. If I was in front of him the boar would charge, if I was on his weapon side he's take a stab at me, if I was on his off-hand side the boar would kind of flail around to knock me down, and if I was behind the boar would kick. This realization actually made the fight way easier because now I could predict exactly what he would do and determine how I would punish it. No bullshit, once I got this aspect down I beat him on that run with barely any damage, and it was satisfying as hell. This is applicable to every boss, and can give you the advantage. This is what the designers expect of us I believe, and in-universe, it is what makes the Tarnish so dangerous. With every death we are better able to predict our foes actions until it's as though we can see into the future, and I like to imagine the bosses are gradually realizing this fact aswell and know that as long as the Tarnished keep coming, they will inevitably kill them. This also how I took down Rellana in my recently playthrough using Bloody Milady and deflect tear, turning it into a Sekiro-style boss fight we're I could puppet her into attacking how I wanted, deflecting her, and punishing with the counter-attack until she bleeds and staggers for massive damage. Her phase transition and ash of war can also be baited depending on if you're far or up in her face, and the fire tornado will leave her wide open. It really evened the playing field knowing that by the time the OST looped, either she would be dead or I would. Very fast paced and highly punishing on both sides! Great video by the way! Thought provoking and I enjoyed it enough that I had to comment and add to the discussion
When Gaius does a body slam, there are multiple things he can do depending on positioning If you're in front of him after the attack ends, he does the charge and you get no punish If you're at his side after the attack ends, he's likely to do a side thrust with the tusk. Which has a punish at the end. Or he repositions himself, which is a punish too If you're behind him after the attack ends, he does a kick which is punishable and you can get a little hit in before it comes out. What I always do, is go under the body slam to strafe it towards his back side. Not rolling the attack gives me a bigger punish because I don't have to wait for my roll recovery to be over. Then I predict roll his kick and punish again That's why I like mounted bosses so much. You essentially have full control over the boss
This is entirely fascinating to note, and I think points to your ability to really discern and break down these games. I honestly love comments like this, as it enhances my own appreciation and knowledge of the game. I definitely was at least aware of the fact that boss attacks were based on proximity (and to me it did feel like sometimes based on actions like healing), but I honestly never thought to use that proximity against them. One of the reasons was of course, my build, where I could primarily dodge and then attack. I think certain builds allow you to bait out more of those attacks than others. If there's one critique I'd have of the game based on what I learned from you, its that the game itself isn't amazing at communicating these nuances, which is definitely somewhere where FromSoftware can likely improve. They're amazing at teaching the player various aspects of their games organically, and maybe I just needed more direction (I'm not too pig headed to say that I'm not amazing at this games, despite how many of them I've played). Appreciate the comment also! Really added to my personal enjoyment and appreciation of the depth in SOTE, and it was the kind of discussion I was looking forward to getting into when I made the video!
@hardreseto I appreciate the compliment! I'm always happy to spread what I've learned to others. But I agree that Fromsoft could stand to better communicate their systems. It's actually been a criticism I've had with every game they release, and I think Elden Ring really needed better communication since this is such a step-up in complexity and A.I. Their philosophy is for us to share our knowledge and learn by trial and error, but the issue I run into a lot is boss fights feeling like slug-fests where I don’t really learn the fight and only won due to brute force, numbers advantage, and luck, which robs me of the satisfaction that comes with outsmarting the boss on their own terms. Something Sekiro did right was giving us that immortal NPC that we could spar with and really learn the intricacies of the system. Sekiro, to my knowledge, was the only game to offer this, but they should have brought it over into Elden Ring. It was such a missed opportunity to not just put Godfrey into Round Table hold in that open combat area where you get invaded, and just have him function as our sparring partner to help us understand the combat better. The final confrontation at the end of the game would have also be soooo much more emotional, too!
I mean, if you're a fan of Elden Ring, then I'd argue it is for you. I think the point I'm trying to make is that even if you loved the base game, SOTE might not cater to you in the same way the base game did.
A nice video even though you said that bleed melee builds will be hard for bosses. I had the exact opposite experience. My bleed builds were just destroying everything. 60 arcane with the greatsword, or crescent moon axe (which I beat Radahn with) felt fairly OP. I also enjoyed using dlc weapons like the putrescent cleaver and meteoric ore greatsword. Bosses were great in the DLC in my opinion. What I didn't like about it is the vast empty spaces, rewards being mostly smithing stones you don't need and cookbooks..
Hrm... I think the one difference here is that I was a Bleed/Dex and you were Bleed/Str from what it seems like. I think Strength builds in general seemed to do better in the DLC, thanks to stagger and what not. I myself had more luck on certain bosses with a Milady+WingStance+Bleed setup. Greatswords do seem like a fun time, so maybe I'll try them out on another play through. Appreciate the kind words and the comment! =D
I had a good time with SOTE. I ran it solo, but I did put my sign down to help people with a areas that I struggled with just to experience it again. I had to experiment with weapons/ damage types and buffs for EVERY main boss. But that's half the fun to me. I would only change the exploration rewards. It's late game, all the smithing stones and glovewarts were underwhelming. I don't know how to fix it, but it's not a huge deal to me. Maybe trick weapons should've added.
A really good shield and spear trivialized Gaius and Radahn. I get not everyone wants to use the tools provided like spells and spirit ash but a shield and spear is not fancy and is even more realistic in battle than rolling around everywhere. Idk why a number of the community either looks down upon or forgets about shields.
I actually don't hate Shields. I was Primarily a Shield Build in Dark Souls 1 and 3, so I get how fun that play style can be. That said, recently, thanks to Sekiro, Lies of P and a few other Souls like, I've moved over to the Dex Build playstyle, and Its clear that a lot of the bosses are pretty strong against that particular style of play. I think Lies of P had a similar issue, but with Strength Builds (in that the game's heavy weapons are just too slow and can't keep pace with the bosses as well as the Dexterity based weapons do). That said, I honestly think there's nothing wrong with Shield Builds, and if anything they're the best way to enjoy SOTE.
I feel like a lot of people cling onto the idea of wanting to either be a naked hobo with a wooden club or Guts but only the Dragonslayer and no other tools like his crossbow and then get rather upset and shocked when that simple strategy just doesn't pan out like it would have in say DS3
@@salemofthedandelions1083 I dont think people "cling" to it. Dodge and hit (and now jump) are the foundational mechanics of the game. They're the only thing shared across all builds and is a good bottomline for if a boss is fun and good
Have I been playing a different game compared to the people complaining about the DLC?... I think Fromsoft did a great job signalling and explaining very clearly how the power scaling was different in the DLC and how to compensate for that as much as you want by collecting as many Scadutree fragments as you want. I had zero problems with that system once I understood it.
Well done on the video. I do agree with you that I think FromSoft was in a tough position in trying to create a DLC for all it's fans. As someone who loved the DLC, (despite being stuck on Radhan still), I'm in the camp that was happy with the DLC. Would I have like more to it? Yeah, but that's more because I'm addicted to these games and less because I'm unfulfilled. My Two cents on few things. Scadutree fragments would have worked better if there were a few more like the Golden Seeds. The emptiness of the Shadowland actually made sense ascetically to me, this is an abandoned land after all. I do believe it might hurt re-playability, but then again maybe not as a second play through of any game you tend to skip that which isn't important to you. I found the interconnected layered levels to be very interesting in the beginning, placing markers for areas to come back to later. I Tried opening the whole map up before really progressing the DLC. The second Finger ruin was bit meh, but loved the Shaman Village. My build was a Cross naginata/Ice Spear, and Great Shield spirit ashes up until Radahn and Gayle. I also played some with the light greatswords (fun), the new katanas, and great katanas. I always go into these games knowing I'll never get that first experience I got with DS1 ever again. I temper my expectations and go in with an open mind. It's worked out for me so far. Good luck with future endeavors.
Appreciate the kind words! As I mention in the video, I think those that tempered their expectations were definitely in for a better time. I think you raise an interesting point about wanting more, and how that will always be the case. I think the mismatch came from what I wanted/expected and what we eventually got. From an atmosphere/visual standpoint, I get what you mean about the emptiness, I just wish it was also fun to explore and enjoy in the same way the base game was. It will work for some people and not for others. Also glad to hear you tried out all the weapons! Best part of the DLC IMO!
Interesting video, you made some good points. I will say I don't think the scadutree fragments are an issue in the dlc, rather I think it's an issue with the fact you can basically go anywhere out the gate and the areas aren't scaled to you. I don't think it would have been a good decision to make the areas scale with you, but we see a similar issue in the base game. You can wonder into calied or walk straight up to marget and feel like you've hit an unfair wall of difficulty, or you can over explore and end up fighting a boss 70 levels past what the devs expect you to be at and breeze through it. It's just the unfortunate nature of elden ring. We could imagine if elden ring was a linear game and they used scadutree fragments in a linear dlc they could much better balance each area and encounter, having the knowledge of exactly how many fragments a player could have at any given point, and if that was the case I feel much less people would see issue with them, but since the game is so open and it's always unclear what the intended fragment level (or player level in the base game) for any given Encounter is it can have players second guessing if they should be exploring to get stronger, or continue trying to fight a boss. I do agree with your sentiment that there should be more though. I do enjoy how there are more golden seeds than needed to max out your flasks and I think adding a couple extra scadutree fragments to ensure players are more reasonably able to max their scadutree level would be a welcome change. I think I was able to find 47/50 on my first go without looking anything up, but I really enjoy exploring in these games so I could see other players finding significantly less.
Yeah I think the issue of open world design and leveling is a big one. I think I had less of an issue with it in base Elden Ring, because if I did hit a wall, I'd either go and make sure I had done the surrounding area before it and leveled up, or was just general adequately leveled since I really enjoyed the exploration, rewards and I just generally prefer doing all side content before I engage with bosses/progress the story. I agree that scaling areas to you wouldn't really work here, but I do think SOME indication of how many Scadutree fragments you need before tackling an area or boss, would be cool. Something Rise of the Ronin does (which is a much lesser game for sure) is that it highlights things on the map in a specific color based on how high level it is. While I don't think Elden Ring needs to display levels, the simple color indicator could work?
I finished both the video and DLC. I visited every corner of the map, collected all fragments, weapons and armour, collected all possible items: cookbooks, AoWs, etc. I killed nearly all bosses without support besides Radahn and Gaius where I used a tank build. First of all, graphics, music, effects and sound artists/engineers/designers have done a brilliant job but bosses felt pretty unfair, although from an observer standpoint they were really impressive. I feel sorry for artists because in this brilliant world created by them Miyazaki didn't seem to complete his work, he hardly put anything interesting apart from short dungeons and some major field bosses. The reward from exploring entire map is little and quite unimpressive. Particularly, Abyssal Woods was quite painful to run--my finger hurt after reaching Midra's Manse because of keeping the speed button all the time. I did enjoy few new weapons s.a. Backhand Blade, Great Katanas, especially Dragon Hunter's GK, Light Greatswords but other weapons seemed kind of missed including even bosses' weapons. I am rather in the camp of those who disappointed with the DLC. I don't want to create too long posts so I would like to comment on something Miyazaki said: "I don't think the game would have done what it did [... if we] crank the difficulty down more and more". No a single serious fan would expect an easy DLC! Assuming negative but constructive reviews, I didn't see people complained about difficulty itself but how the difficulty was achieved. With constraints inherited from the main game, they were probably left with limited options , so they had to tune up enemy mechanics to, I would call, absurd extremes, s.a. long delays, increased hit boxes that broke some bosses, faster attacks, hyper armour in combo chains, and prolonged combos catching melee players every time they try. On top of that attacks are relentless with no time for breathing. On the other hand, players did not get anything else in exchange. Apart from the Blind Point, players are left with old roll/jump/basksteps that do not work as before. This is the reason why one build can faceroll bosses while the other leave players in a state of frustration and unfairness. I think based on what Miyazaki expressed in interviews, I'd say he missed the point and didn't understand the complaints from that perspective. Having said that, I don't know how else they could achieve the level of desired difficulty, otherwise.
Yeah I agree on quite a few notes you said. In particular the part about how BEAUTIFUL and atmospheric some of the new locations are, but how little there is to do in them, was a let down. I do feel for the art team, because areas like the Finger Ruins and the Cerulean coast are amazing the first time you see them. I think the game design team, whoever was involved, did drop the ball a bit. I also think like you said, there were a lot of constraints from the base game. This why I mention in the video that SOTE being an expansion actually holds it back quite a bit. Totally agree on difficulty. I expect hard games from FromSoftware, I mean, my favorite game of theirs is Sekiro, and no other game has ever pushed me as much as that game did. That said, the way the difficulty was implemented and executed, was definitely, for me, not as fun. And to your point, there wasn't a real way to up the difficulty in any other meaningful way. Since this was an expansion, they just couldn't stray from the base game.
@@Celdorsc2 i think a lot of people get too attached to their initial builds. If your build does not work for the DLC, respec, you can do it like 12 times... you can respect for every major boss fight and it is lore justified. Just like the ashes and everything else with what the game gives you.
@@Yo64130 I am not convinced. Re-spec'ing for a boss and then re-spec'ing back to a "preferable" build means the system is flawed, or playing with a build that "works" in the DLC does not seem like a good system, at all. Builds reflect our preferable style: Mage range, Mage melee, heavy knight, swift bandit/ninja/rogue etc. I know some builds work because many arenas (including mini bosses) were covered with red blood stains all over the place and yet I read messages s.a. "Why is it always Weak foe?", "Blood stains, Skill required ahead!" etc. etc. as if someone who chose DEX build was luck of skills while Strength allows for stun locks and pretty much faceroll the same boss with a shield and heavy weapon etc. I know heavy armour, a colossal weapon or a great spear, and a large shield, essentially a tank build, made the adventure through SotE pretty chilled and relaxed for players. I could see that when Asmongold and Day[9] used that build. Not sure about Day[9] but Asmongold killed Gaius in the first attempt!!! The thing is I hate being a knight in fantasy games, I hate being bulky. This is why I choose a Dex builds. I did deliberately used Arcane to make bleed working and kill inconvenient enemies fast but some bosses, mostly in nameless mausoleums, were strong or immune to bleed as they were ghosts. Rakshasa is a perfect example where DEX literally didn't work at all. I had to spam Lion's Claw on Great Stars to finish her! Thank God I had access to the Lion's Claw. I don't know. As I said, I am not convinced about how lore would justify such drastic changes in experience just because one used a certain build over the other.
@@Celdorsc2 that is the thing is not like you are modding the game or restarting a new game, respec is part of the game system. As I said you get many chances per run to do this. The system is designed for you to be able to do this if you want to or need to. It is not a flaw if it os within the rules of the game. People get too attached to their builds and that is ok, but that doesnt mean you shouldn't or mustnt respec advance and maybe respec to something else. Why make the game harder and less enjoyable for yourself for no good reason? I am right now mostly an int build but I have already respec'd once as I was trying to go faith/int... My character was shit... Respc'd and now I am way better. I want to use some colossal weapons so maybe I will try respecing if I dont like it then I can go back. Within my playthrough with the rules of the game... I fail to see what is so hard about it other than some externaly imposed ala git gud barrier. Do what is best for you to keep enjoying the game you like and paid for.
@@Yo64130 "I fail to see what is so hard about it other than some externaly imposed ala git gud barrier. ... Do what is best for you to keep enjoying the game you like and paid for." "Git Gut" means to get patient and motivated, to learn a boss step by step and eventually defeat it. I did it in ER base: Malenia, Maliketh and other bosses, I did in SEKIRO with Genichiro, Ishin Ashina, Ishin Sword Saint, Guardian Ape etc., and in DS 3 with Midir. I felt progressing when approached these bosses multiple times. I can't tell the same in the DLC. As to rest of what you said, there is the difference between "I'd rather prefer to use Strength" and "I have to switch to Strength". Can you see the difference? One is player's personal preference, the other is what the game forces a player to do or dictates the build. If you fail to see this as an issue, then indeed you cannot see why and what people complain about because you take the game design as is. It's fine by me but don't try to convince me it is OK to switch the build when I have to. I played many games to see when there is an issue and when there is not. Even though I am thankful that a company like FromSoft exists, I still believe we all should express disappointment if something is not quite right.
I hear you there. I got the collector's edition and just got a download code. That really hit me hard man. A friend of mine got the PS5 disc standard edition that has both the base game and SOTE on disc, and I felt really ripped off. That may be a Bandai Namco thing though and not necessarily a FromSoftware thing.
Honestly I looked up one thing during my playthrough when it comes to area traversal and it was something super obvious that I missed when it was right in front of my face. I managed to find every other area and I’m not all that clever. I also waited to burn that thing because in the base game burning something meant changing the world. So I used that reasoning to wait until I was absolutely ready to do so. A little patience and thought go a long way. Also I only play melee, mostly dex, never use shields unless it’s too parry, never use summons or magic or any range really, and I am not a challenge runner (basically, I’ve done them but I’m certainly not Gino). And I completely disagree with your assessment. This is why it’s important for you to let the viewer who might not buy it now because of those things you said and they do the things I do and now they think they won’t be able to get through it because it’s made in opposition to their play style. Because somehow I play exactly how you described, did not experience what you claimed, and have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s ok if that’s your experience and opinion based on it, but saying “this is the way the game is” isn’t objectively true. I liked Radahn pre-nerf and beat him multiple times in multiple ways and I’m glad I did, and also I’m happy they nerfed him and fixed a lot of legitimate issues with him. I think most people are in this camp. It was a fun club to join while it was open, but indeed had mechanical issues that needed to be fixed. Learning to parry the fight was so much fun. (Video posted 😉 in account)
The one thing I'll say here is that I don't expect my video to influence anyone's buying decisions. This video is meant for people who've played the game, or who don't care about being spoiled about the experience. If someone is looking at this video as a review, then I think I'm failing a bit here, because this is meant to be an exploration and opinion piece, targeted at those who've already played the game. Also I mean this analysis and video is my opinion, so I think we agree there. I can totally be wrong too! And that's okay! Haha, not above hearing that. Appreciate your insights!
personally, I think that if you think Elden Ring DLC Boss are somehow keep attacking and did not gave you a "window" to "wailing" on them, you are fundamentaly misunderstood Elden Ring Boss design. this complaint is also something people was complaining about for base Elden Ring Boss as well. because the fundamental design of Elden Ring boss is not like Dark Soul, they are not going to attack you a bunch of time, then have a opening window for you to wail on them. they demand you to dance with them. to weave your attack in between theirs. in a way, if you like Dark Soul combat, you are more likely to like turn base RPG than anything else. Elden Ring combat is much more of an action combat because of this. and some people misunderstand it as having "no opening window" to attack. sure, some people might not like that kind of combat, but that is just because they didnt like that type of combat, and not an actual criticism of the game.
I've seen that particular point quite a bit online, and I agree that Elden Ring's combat is different, but I disagree that SOTE and base Elden Ring have the same boss design. In base Elden Ring, bosses do pause after a flurry of attacks. They have some kind of invisible stamina meter that does get depleted. They've got weaknesses and strengths. The dance as you quite aptly term it, only works if both partners are playing by the same rules. If I can lose my stamina by constantly attacking, and the boss can keep throwing out move after move after move without much pause, then well... One side doesn't have a pretty huge limitation. I honestly never experienced the opening window issue in base Elden Ring (even with Malenia). There were ways and tricks that allowed you to deal with even the most aggressive bosses. Personally, I wouldn't mind the bosses and their difficulty if we also didn't have a stamina bar. And I do get that a lot of the issues can happen due to builds too. That said, I think base Elden Ring just did it all better, IMHO.
@@hardreseto let me gave an example: Malekith. if you take a close look at his move set , he dont really stop attacking. but his attack are often long winded attack that if you know how, you can side step into a position to punish. but he never stop attacking unless he got stagger. SOTE is just the same concept, except the window for attacking is even more narrow, as well as how much newer the DLC was so that players dont have much experience on the boss behavior.
@@LostWallet Malekith was probably one of the more difficult bosses in the base game. That said, I think the game eased in you in a bit with his first form being pretty easy and the second form turning up the heat. I can totally see the DNA of SOTE's boss design in Malekith, but I think pushing in that direction wasn't all that fun, for me.
@@hardresetodude how much are you rolling and running to be running out of stamina? I've beaten the game and dlc several several times and many times barley leveled up endurance at all and i don't ever run out of stamina. i can also even get attacks in while dodging depending on the build. i don't use any stamina regenerating talismans or anything either. im just genuinely confused on how you run out of stamina in this game unless you are spam panic rolling or running the entire fight
they objectively have less and more steep punish windows. Not every build can afford to punish between combos bcs there's just not much time, and they get staggered out of it. Rellana sometimes just decides to chain 3 combos together before giving you ample time to punish. E.g. with a Blood Tax build you can;t realy punish inbetween because she just strafes it, so you are stuck with waiting for better rng. Bosses like golden hippo do these super long windup attacks, which normally are tells for a heavy punish, but then fuck off to the other side of the arena before you can do one charged attack. fly grab attacks thaat stagger you for like 4 seconds. Why? "Feature", answers the fromsoft stan. There are so many nonsensical decisions in this dlc it's actually funny watching people trying to bs their way over them.
I will probably die on that hill, but I have to say again that a vast open world is not a suitable concept for a "Souls" game. The base game was already full of mediocre filler content that was repeated too often, e.g. Catacombs, Erdtree Avatars, Ulcerated Tree Spirits, Watchdogs, Pumpkin Heads. The map in the base game was also already quite empty. If you didn't want to engage with the repetitive side content, you would ride from legacy dungeon to legacy dungeon. The rewards of the side content were also often lackluster with spirit summons, spells, talismans and weapons that were usually worse compared to what you already found. DS3 and Bloodborne were much better in this regard. "Legacy dungeon" after "legacy dungeon" resulted in a much better pace. Bloodborne had with its labyrinths also some repetitive content, but it gave you proper rewards with special runes and blood gems that made your build stronger. Elden Ring likely would have had more high quality bosses instead of nonsense like the Godskin Duo fight, if they would have made the game in the style of DS3 or Bloodborne. The only positive thing about the design is that it spares new and below average players the need for grind as they can do the side content to level up. I played the Elden Ring convergence mod and the mod vastly improves Elden Ring. Each class starts with hints, where the gear and suitable spells for their class is. You have special teleporters that spare you the riding around. You just need to defeat an easy boss to access the teleporter and after using the teleporter. Side areas were also reworked to offer a higher quality. When it comes to the DLC. I really enjoyed it as all major dungeons were much closer to each other. The world looked stunning like the base game and even the side content improved with the gaols and the mausoleums. We got 11 rememberance bosses on a much smaller map compared to the base games 15 rememberance bosses on the vast map. Should they go open world again, I hope that they have a smaller and more quality condense map compared to Elden Ring.
You raise some important points about recycled content in the base game. There was some repetition there, but I felt like there was enough new stuff that kept me invested and interested. New enemies, bosses, things to find e.t.c. I will also say, I LOVED the Legacy Dungeons in the base game. Beyond Shadow Keep, I don't there's one Legacy dungeon in SOTE that even comes close to the base game's excellent dungeon design. That said, I won't disagree that DS3 and Bloodborne had better pacing. They did, and I also get that the Souls design meshing with an Open world was always going to be a tough thing to execute on. That said, I think with base Elden Ring, FromSoftware did remarkably well, and exceeded my expectations at least. I haven't played the convergence mod, but that's really fantastic. Yet another reason for me to shell out the money and invest in a beefy PC.
I think the biggest thing everyone keeps missing about every one of these games when they come out is that they literally had the same complaints about what came before it. It was said about Dark Souls 3 because its combat was too much like Bloodborne. When Sekiro came out they had gone too far and it was over the top and hard for the sake of it. And then when Elden Ring came out it was over-tuned and the bosses delay attacks were insane and it was too hard. Now the exact same thing is happening with the DLC. It’s literally the same conversation over and over and over with the exact same talking points. I have no stake in whether or not someone likes something. And there is nothing wrong with critique or even criticism. But the memory loss that people seem to suffer is just exhausting. I’m not kidding when I say- all of these things people are talking about (including a lot of the ones made in this video) have been said before about multiple games and forgotten. And now they are all genius masterpieces. And I’m just turning the corner where I’ll be able to laugh when it’s all said again next time. Specific to this though, I have to comment about something. “It’s hit or miss depending on who is playing it and why.” Ok, that’s basically “not everything is for everyone”. Which I understand is part of the point but that’s also just how everything works. Nothing will ever make anyone happy. Some people were going to be disappointed no matter what this DLC was. I’m thrilled to be in the camp that absolutely loves it. Maybe more than the base game and think some of these are their best bosses and areas they have created to date. And I wish, sincerely, that everyone got to feel that way. But that’s not possible. And I’ll be disappointed in something else somewhere everyone else is having a good time. But I think this kind of discussion is better served with analysis instead of criticism and I think this video is trying to walk that line and I appreciate that. I’m sure I’ll be gritting my teeth at some points made here, just purely based on subjective descriptions of what interaction with the DLC is like. But I do appreciate the attempt. I guess my point is to pick one or the other. Blending the two tends to be an approach that turns me off because it starts to sound like “My subjectivity is objective”. This doesn’t mean needing to start every sentence with “In my opinion…” But it does mean carefully walking the line.
I think what's most interesting about that repeating cycle of these complaints coming up again and again, is that its different games and different points that kind of make certain people hit that breaking point. I never experienced these issues with any of FromSoftware's previous games, and this was my first instance of feeling this way. So I think its less memory loss, and more different people hitting that point at different times. I loved DS1, Bloodborne, and especially Sekiro. Sekiro was hard, but it never felt frustrating or unfair to me. I totally get being in the Souls community and seeing this again and again and being annoyed by it, and all I can say is I apologize if you've heard this before. I've been largely insulted from the general community and been enjoying these games on my own, so for me all of this IS new. I think what I meant to say with Hit or Miss, is more regarding fans of the base game of Elden Ring. To me, its just fascinating that there's such division between people who LOVED the base game, but then the DLC doesn't quite work for them. My explanation for that is its tied to build and playstyle more so than anything else. I apprecaite the kind words here, and I'm happy to hear opposing points of view. One thing that I look forward to after making these videos, is hearing other prespectives and learning new things that I didn't consider! As you can see, I respond to a lot of comments, because I generally love the discussion part of the process!
I agree with a lot of your arguments but I don't get the complaints about the Shadow Keep and interconectivity. I find it brilliant. Overall The Land Of Shadow has the best map I've ever seen and engaged with in games. My experience was so fun and experimental. I took my time and found about 85% percent of the content without a guide. What is sad though is that the large chunks of the map are, as you said, empty - it pains me so much. I've counted more than 30 new types of enemies, which is a crazy amount for a DLC and yet still not enough to fill up this space. Same goes for armor, weapons, spells. This really should have been "Elden Ring 2", if they took more time with it.
I think for me, the issue with the Shadow Keep was just the stress I felt of being able to potentially lock myself out of content. As another comment pointed out though, That's apparently less of a danger than I thought when I was playing. FromSoftware has just trained me to be very cautious about missing out on stuff, so I guess that played into it. Yeah, the emptyness is a real shame, especially when compared to the base game, where that definitely didn't feel like the case. I honestly, think this should have just been scaled up to a sequel, and I would have gladly waited for it. Ah well...
I'm sorry, but I believe that the issue you have with the boss design ( especially with Rellana ) is due to a lack of knowledge on how to get more openings, rather than them being nearly non-existent. With Rellana, a lot of her moves can be jumped over. This allows you to come down with a jump attack. They made it so that the recovery of a jump attack could duck under a lot of bosses's followups. When the recovery is over, you have time to roll or jump the next attack that gets dished out. Therefore it being safe to jump attack Rellana during a lot of her long combo strings, or even the last hits of her combos. You can also strafe quite a lot of her moves to make the openings you get longer. If you don't have to roll, you don't have to wait for your roll recovery to be over in order to get your attack in. A rolling light attack opening can be turned into a heavy attack opening that way. You even did such a strafe at 40:54. Why not mention it? You can attack her during windups of delayed attacks as well. This adds at least 4 openings to the fight And these three things make such a significant difference, that you can punish Rellana just as often as phase 2 Malenia. Also you show Putrescent Knight when talking about infinite stamina etc. There are 15 attacks in his whole moveset, and 13 of which are punishable, often in multiple ways. What I said about Rellana applies here too. What is your issue with him exactly? I'm quite bewildered. He seems to me like a boss that you would enjoy. I have over 70 hours of experience challenge running that fight, with any build and with any restriction. It's my favorite boss in any game ever. Ask ahead Also, bosses don't input your attacks outside of NPC's. Quite misleading to show Blackgoal Knight there. Gaius and PCR don't have unavoidable attacks. I can provide sources of certain attacks being dodged if needed. There are so many false statements in this section it's insane.
@@glisteninggames2981 Yeah lol, and the thing that kills me is the way they look back fondly upon the base game now, like they didn't loathe it & made 1000s of "critique" videos about it lol. Btw have you seen Gred Glintstones video about critique videos & how toxic they have become? It's sensational I swear to God, if you haven't, I implore you to watch it all, it's 2 hours long though.
@@HeyTarnished i didnt play ER or souls games at all when the apex of the discussion was going on, but im well aware of what happened. crazy to see this unfold with my very own eyes. now all of the sudden malenia was all good and fair? also yes I did watch Gred's video. its a great one. there are some things i disagree with, but overall his points are of extremely high quality. good to have some pushback to the endless stream of misleading of false statements
@@glisteninggames2981 Oh I didn't know you started playing these games well after ER's release, always nice to see a new fan that knows what he's talking about MORE than the older Souls fans, and yeah there were a couple of points I didn't fully agree with Gred, but man we sorely needed a video like that to combat this negative ragebait "look at me I critiqued a masterpiece & made it sound like a bad game" BS that UA-camr "critique" have been doing for so long now, and to combat misinformation too.
My experience was that it was a fun and challenging go through. Kinda wish sorceries had more toys (looking at the number of new incantations Vs sorceries), amulets or such, but what is there is servicable. Died around 120 times by the end (rune arc counter: had to do quite a few invasions to restock em.) I definetly think the build point raises an interesting question though: Logically, and realistically, each build has pros and cons. Now, if a player chooses to for example forego all ranged attack options, they have created their own consequence/weakness for their own choice. Is it wrong for the game to take advantage of this? Clearly, you can still do it. Just you'll be having a rough time where skill needs to compensate for the choice born weakness. I personally feel it's alright for a game to come up to peoples faces now and then, and whisper: "You chose this weakness, and I will now end you for it." Yet clearly, many people do not like the fact their choices can have exploitable tactical consequences. It's an interesting one where certain players may feel uncomfortable for getting shown their choices in playstyle, while valid, do come with their own consequences. In a way, they are not kings of the sandbox immune to the rules at play there, but just wandering around in it subject to their choices coming with strenghts and weaknesses. Making thus sense to in a way demand at advanced difficulty tiers the player should really be considering what they are doing here in terms of loadout, build, and tactics.
I never quite thought of it like that, but I really like the way you tackled the whole build problem. I mean, technically you CAN have a hybrid build or ranged build, and the choosing not to have those options, is indeed player choice. I think where I find issues with this is, is in the fact that this a DLC to a 200+ Hour RPG, where the base game didn't quite punish you for adding those weaknesses, as you aptly stated. As a player that made it through the entire base game without relying on magic or ranged options too much (I used Archery a bit, but not for bosses), I feel like the game just shifted for me. I didn't mind the same restrictions in say, Lies of P, where the game is clearly communicating that it wants you to parry, and or use status effects or the game WILL be very hard, from the first boss. In the future, I think your idea of "Difficulty options" based on build is not a bad one. Even in the character creator, a warning or description of "advanced" or something similar could clue players in to what they're in for.
@@hardreseto Agree with the fact the base game probably should have already done more of this. Though, it also kind of does. If you use only sorceries, you need to sometimes be cheeky with the toolkit factoring in cast times, distances, etc. Rock sling as opposed to comet type spells for Rellana is an easy, early on example of needing to adjust. Invasions also are an easy example of this in action. Ditto for a lot of sniper position enemies, and the likes. It's just not as common and can be more easily bypassed with skill as obstacles. Another option for supplementary ranged attacks comes in the forms of items. Pots, darts, throwing knives, all the good stuff really. Doing any damage is better than no damage, and slow and steady wins the race in battles of endurance. Using spirit summons to keep a boss busy understanding how and what draws aggro is another thing to crack. I think a lot of it does come to down to how it's all communicated. Even without difficulty options, the DLC coming with a clear and bold note saying it will demand a lot more from the player for them to make it though than the base game might have done the job.
I agree with a lot of the points made, but I think each person will have a different experience. I agree the map design is odd but I didn’t run into the problem of traversing Shadow Keep or having to come back to it multiple times. I was able to find my way through it to each boss and never really went back unless i wanted to
I think a lot of that comes down to the individual player. You are likely just better at navigating From Software worlds than I am. I also tend to want to do all questlines and do everything I can, and don't want to miss anything, so that might also color my opinion here.
Great video. I aggree with many points, specially the emptiness on the map. My overall opinion is that the whole of SOTE suffers from the issues that Malenia had back then. Too hard, too unfun, and too filled of corners to criticize the difficulty and justify the hate. When ER came out, everyone hated Malenia, there were people who said she even cheated, but as time went by and people were becoming better at fighting her they began to appreciate her and went from absolute bullshit boss to one of the most beloved, wich I think will be the case with SOTE as a whole. My belief is that as time goes by people will endup loving SOTE more. Case in point, the lore. We all were dissapointed with the lack of GEQ content. But as time's gone by we all started to question, well, maybe we had evrrything we need to know about her since the beggining, and SOTE explains so much more of how the world works that, instead of telling you a story, it gives you the tools to finally have carve a stone to step on and be able to reach your own conclusions with good arguments and evidence. Great video, again, wish you success.
Interesting about Malenia. I definitely heard that people disliked her, but I never quite found her to be an issue. In fact, much like Radahn in the base game, I was really hyped up for this hard battle, and then actually found it to be pretty easy. I also loved Malenia as a boss, for the reasons I mentioned. I think there is a way to trivialize her as well, and that's just to over level yourself a bit. In SOTE, that's a lot harder to do because of the Scadutree Fragments, and the level caps that you've likely hit. I think lore has definitely been a sore spot for me with From's games, and I preferred Sekiro for how it went for a more direct approach. I can totally see people piecing together more info, and I'm sure there will be a Vaatividya video or something that will make it all make sense. Appreciate the kind words!
@@hardreseto yeah, SOTE's bosses are way tighter, I'm just trying my 2nd run against Rellana, and this time I'm finding a lot of small openings in between her combos that make the battle actually feel like a dance, using a light GS, it is an awesome feeling similar to fighting Malenia with Knife or Katana. I had a run at Malenia with daggers that took me a long time to master, you can take a look in my channel if you like! And yeah, you were really spot on in saying that everyone's experience varied around the Scadutree fragments, also the ng cycle you're in has a lot of influence on how easy or hard the expansion was. Cheers!
Totally disagree an expansion is made to give more of the same, new of the same. Is like having hice cream and going for a second serving. A sequel would have been what you expected, build upon the first one and surprise you.
I mean, I don't disagree on the sequel bit. I feel like SOTE is in this weird place between DLC and Sequel in terms of its ambition and size. That said, I feel like more of the same was the bare minimum. I felt like certain parts of SOTE were weaker than the base game IMO.
@@hardreseto but comparing sizes SOTE is a third of the base game. So for expansion is right on the money. Could it be that maybe you expected a sequel?
@@hardreseto It's just an expansion, yours or others imaginations of it being a sequel is just untrue, and that is unfair criticism on SOTE, it's like saying Bloodborne Old Hunters should've been Bloodborne 2 because it is proportionately as big as SOTE for Elden Ring when compared against Bloodborne base game.
Although I didn't like the Story of the DLC, I just wished for more, I feel like the world is too vast and the devs are holding too much from us compared to their other games. But in total I love the DLC and base game, it wasn't too difficult at all gave us tons of new toys to play with, my overall experience is this is still one of Fromsoftwere best games, my second favorite after Bloodborne.
Well again, like for the many others who enjoyed the game, I'm glad for you. I think FromSoftware and Miyazaki agree with you on the scale of the world, and they've said as I mentioned in the video, that they want to do smaller games going forward. I'm all for that. Sekiro's my favorite FromSoftware game, with Elden Ring a close second and Bloodborne third.
My experience with shadow of the erdtree was nearly identical to my experience of the base game. Loved it at first, started to feel fatigued by around the midway point and was rather disappointed by the end. Though I've come to realize this has been my experience with pretty much every open world game ive ever played, this quantity over quality, copy paste design model really pulls me out of the game and makes the world feel incredibly artificial. And I find it to be such a backwards design philosophy, because I always felt the "promise" that open world games try make is an immersive experience, a fully realized world where you can go anywhere and do anything. But the corners that need to be cut in order to achieve that open structure (within reasonable budgets and deadlines) seem to actively contradict and hamper that goal. I just dont think this kind of design plays to fromsofts strengths, and I hope to see them return to their roots sooner rather than later, with tightly designed areas and encounters they used to be so well known for.
That is a very interesting take, and I can totally see where you're coming from. For me the base game of Elden Ring never got to the point that SOTE did with fatigue and disappointment. That said, I generally am fine with open worlds and don't mind them as much. Elden Ring was a pretty great and solid example of an Open World game with a lot of From Software's design tricks. As you mentioned, some of the issues with Elden Ring and definitely SOTE are just inherent in open world games. I suppose if you play a lot of those (I have) you get immune to some of those issues, and Elden Ring may feel like a breath of fresh air compared to most open world games on the market today. That said, I think from Miyzaki's own comments that I mention at the end of the video, I think that's what we'll be getting in terms of scale. Smaller, tighter designed games, and hopefully with more risky and innovative design decisions!
@hardreseto yeah I guess elden ring just kind of reminded me why I've bounced off most open world games I've played in the past, but I think it speaks volumes to its quality that it was still able to hold my attention the whole way through anyways. While I did ultimately find it disappointing, it's undeniably a fantastic game.
Feeble kings follow up video to his first Elden ring sote video basically sums up most of what i don't like in shadow of the erdtree. Although his first shadow of the erdtree video was kind of bad. From software games are changing. Shadow of the erdtree feels so different from the base that i don't understand how people get the same mood from it. Overall i consider sote a necessary change and coffin to the 'souls series' as this was because the biggest developers of the souls series split of from the base to direct their own games Miyazaki said in an old fromsoftware interview that he doesn't want to be known as a celebrity and wants people to complement their games and not him. He also makes it clear that the souls games are a team effort and expression of creativity and there's designers who contribute to the games massive pieces of their souls and identity. something that would be undermined if he became the big celeb that he is today. He's a normal caring great guy. This does not mean that from software's loosing their soul but that new pieces of soul are coming in and that these games are changing. showing that from software even though how much the souls series sells value all their developers freedom of expression more than the money a new souls series game would bring. Also he said something about showing everyone the new fromsoftware in a recent pre-sote interview i think i don't remember.
I saw that video, and it had a lot of good points. I think you are right that From Software's games are changing. They always have and always will. My favorite game of theirs was Sekiro, which I think was pretty different from anything that they had released before. I honestly really really liked the quote I shared near the end, where Miyazaki shared that he wanted to do smaller projects and have the younger talent in his studio direct and try new things. It makes me really excited for whatever FromSoftware does next.
Rellana is the worst boss in this series. She attacks faster than you can react. Malenia was the same, but at least there you could stun her by attacking. Rellana snaps through all shields.
You bring up so many points in the video, not all of which I remember, but I'm pretty mixed in reference to all your issues. I think people are too acclimated to the base game and don't recognize issues the base game and the DLC share: overtuned difficulty (Malenia), poor progression, unsatisfying exploration (a lot of reused enemies and item pickups), and performance (especially on release). You mention all of these problems in the DLC but fail to recognize they exist in the base game, sometimes even worse. What I think it shocking is that people think Radahn is somehow harder than Malenia. The caliber of these bosses isn't even close. One has the most ridiculous attack From has ever designed (Waterfowl Dance) and the other has a dinky cross slash. How can you compare these two attacks? They're both unavoidable, yes, but one is vastly more manageable than the other. I think people need to do far more reflecting on what problems the base game and the DLC SHARE.
Don't know man... After finishing it off with Radahn last night, the main game kinda feels like a early level part. I did not played elden ring since my first 300 hrs of it when it lunch and recently rexp every thing and further with the DLC. A lot of moments in there seems like a homage to previos souls game and to main elden ring. Some bs here and there but all souls have those moments. It's their biggest DLC, so I think the full out of prop hype plus a 2 year gap, made people expect a Elden ring 2: Marikas boogleloo, when all they did was watch the comunity, see what has been done and implement on it. The DLC takes all of elden ring and put into practice. Like Rellanas twin moon dodge, just jump MF. Use everything that is on dispose and implement your gameplay. That's just me tho
I think expectations were definitely high. That said, I actually didn't expect Elden Ring 2, though as I say in the video, I think given the ambition and size of the DLC, maybe shifting to Elden Ring 2 would've made more sense. For me, I wanted a condensed, stronger form of the base game, without filler and really fun bosses. For a variety of reasons, I didn't get that (Whether it was because of my build, playstyle, what I had left over from the base game e.t.c.)
I’ve found that newer fans enjoyed it and older fans that had to wait for it, were more disappointed. My long time souls playing friends did not like the dlc and I only started playing the BASE GAME a week after the DLC dropped (I know, I REALLY missed out)
Hrm... That is interesting. Did you jump into the DLC as part of the base game experience? I confess I can't imagine how that would feel, but that's certainly a scenario that I hadn't considered.
@@hardreseto i had never played a souls game prior to elden ring. and i did not start playing it until around a week after the DLC dropped. so i worked through the main story and getting gud ya know, then once i became elden lord, i moved to the DLC and played through it. it's difficulty was SUPER hard for me on my first playthrough even having max scadu ( because i've since gotten better at the game and i was still learning). i had no complaints on the exploration, the loot, the progression or the lore. i have 6 separate friends who played elden ring at launch and waited for the DLC and 2 other friends who started on DS3, and every single one of them felt disappointed by the DLC for a variety of reasons and that simply was not my experience. it was like the magic of skyrim all over again and my life feels changed after experiencing everything The Lands Between has to offer multiple times over.
I feel like people who disliked the expansion just have a problem where they raise their expectations so high they cant enjoy anything. They have like set ideas of what they want and if the game doesnt have everything they want they are dissappinted. Try expecting nothing and you will find it way more enjoyable, and life in general lol.
I mean, I did mention that in the video. It was just really hard to keep your expectations low after what From Software has delivered over the past decade AND the fact that Elden Ring was so superb.
I think failed is a strong word. Idk if I agree with that take. But I do think shadow of the erd tree was great but not the same level of excellence as the base game.
I think when I say failed, I mean specifically for a bunch of the player base that were expecting to be blown away. I don't think the game is a commercial or critical failure in any way. I think for me, as a player who expected something better than even the base game, I definitely felt let down, and I feel like that WAS what From Software was aiming for, to at least match the level of the base game.
@@hardreseto I understand fully! I’m in the mode of awaiting what their next project is! Also if you would consider doing a video on the subject of Miyazaki’s chosen new directors whom he worked with prior and groomed and personally selected for their roles as directors. He mentioned he would not be overseeing their projects and let them basically run free. I’ve mentioned this only once before on another video but we are officially in the post Elden ring era which represents a new phase of games and new era of fromsoft ware with the understanding of their magnum opus success of Elden ring. Now we don’t know what we may encounter moving forward because Miyazaki said the difficulty factor was more so his design philosophy. He mentioned he would not enforce that upon his directors and they all seen his design philosophy and understand the engine they use as well as will come with their own ideas and philosophies. I’m just deep in speculation and actually idealistic about the future!
@@silentobserver888 Yeah I think there's a ton to look at mine for the future of From Software. Takes me quite a bit to gather and research stuff, but I will definitely state that From Software is going to be a staple of coverage on this channel! :)
my ps4 crashes while trying to get bell bearings for my new character and my maxed character does fuck all damage so maybe ill watch this video later :(
Well, with ER Miyazaki wanted the whole world to play it as he made accessible game that sold, like, 20 million copies. Then he apparently decided the game is for niche players so he made the expansion with lots of artificial difficulty to make you feel frustrated. I completed the base game alright but gave up on the DLC because it got tedious. After killing Mohg and Radahn, I am one-shot by a... DOG. I get it, it's a shock value and all that, learning the environment and so on, but it's cheap. Like those cheap jump scares in horror films. So the way he achieved difficulty is really cheap and I gave up.
I get the feeling. There were actually points in the DLC were I did consider just dropping it. Luckily the new weapons and a few other things kept me going, but the difficulty did feel pretty rough.
@@hardreseto It's their iconic move, suddenly getting killed, but after killing demigods, getting one shot by a dog is just bizarre. Or lazy. I dunno. Or with the Divine Beast. I am not a very good player. I use summons. But by the time, I had summoned the mimic the Beast would close the gap and slam me into the wall and then I am left without health fighting a difficult boss AND the camera. That's not elegant design they always boast of.
@@dankokamcevski The bosses immediately rushing you WAS a huge issue. FromSoftware actually patched the game and so now multiple bosses actually give you time to summon your spirit ashes. I remember how frustrated I was with Bayle because I had to summon the Cooperator from inside the battle zone to complete his quest haha. So yeah, you are totally right in that that was a huge oversight, and I mean, they fixed it, for what its worth (For I believe the Dancing Lion, Golden Hippo and a few others, including the final boss)
@@hardresetoThank you for your reply! I think From Soft is actually very real about their weaknesses whereas some of the fans are ready to excuse anything in the name of "skill issue".
It's unbalanced, and scadutree fragments don't do anything to balance it. And it's incredibly boring and frustrating looking for them. The gameplay has become unbalanced for magic builds, heavy armor builds, etc. The only way to survive is to do as much damage as possible and take as little damage as possible while moving lightning fast. So that means you are forced into a bleed build with medium light armor and using buffs and talismans to negate all damage. The base game rewards you for exploration and playing the way you want. This game punishes you for being yourself. That's not really bdsm anymore miyazaki, bdsm is consensual. So yeah its unbalanced, and it's frustrating because it has so much potential. And it's frustrating because they could easily tweak it to make it more balanced. But they refuse to do more with it. Also the scadutree system was a bad idea, they already had a great leveling system, intuitive and rewarding and encouraged exploration in a natural way.
I believe you and I are in agreement with most things here. Unbalanced is a good way of looking at it. If only certain builds are viable or easy to go with, then the game just needed more balancing. Its also rough to see when the base game WAS pretty balanced. I totally agree on the game punishing you for being yourself, or wanting to play in a certain way. Its unfortunate, but I think the leveling experiment with SOTE with the Scadutree fragments was I'd say a mistake in retrospect.
@@hardreseto yes totally agree. The base game let's you enjoy exploring and rewards you by leveling up your character and you are more free to play whatever way you want. If they wanted to make the bosses so fast and deliver so much damage then they should have allowed for magic builds to level up how fast they can cast magic, or maybe find new staffs that deals more magic damage and has faster casting, and special armor that protects levels up your damage negation considerably to be able to face off against the new bosses. Healing should be faster aswell since the retaliation window is so much shorter now etc. Yes the scadutree system is just no fun. It's frustrating having to look for them, tucked away in the most unexpected places, and so unfair that there's not an obundance of them, like the golden seeds so you have a chance to actually level up to max level. The magic build becomes so high level with the scadutree that you breeze through the regular enemies (no challenge is no fun either) and then you hit a brick wall when you run into a tough boss that one shots you if uou make one little mistake in the middle of a lightning fast combo. Yes compared to the base game shadow of the erdtree is just unbalanced, and it's a shame because it has so much potential. I just wanna keep playing because I love this world, but then you are reminded of its shortcomings when a boss depletes half your life bar with one hit, you're just left thinking, how am I going to learn the moveset when you don't give me a chance to learn. Yes you can frustratingly replay the boss 100 times and slowly learn each new move, making fewer mistakes each time, but that just feels like such an unpleasant grind. And then you have to go out and search for more scadutree fragments, more grinding. I really wish it was more balanced and enjoyable. I don't think I'll play another From dlc, I'll look forward to the next main game, but I'll definitely think twice before buying another dlc to be honest.
I mean, that's a possibility. I won't claim to be SUPER good at these games, I'd even say I'm below average. That said, the skill issue didn't inhibit my enjoyment of Nioh, Nioh 2, The Dark Souls Trilogy, Bloodborne, Lies of P and my personal favorite From Software game, Sekiro. I STILL love Isshin as the best final boss I've ever faced, and spent quite a bit of time on him. When I was fighting Radahan, I just felt.. empty and frustrated. Maybe its a skill issue, but I bet you there's a good chunk of players that probably felt the same way.
most people here have beaten these games one way or another, multiple times, and are voicing their contentions with the design. If all you can do is boast about being a cumdumpster for whatever the developer wants to pump down your throat, sure you can do it, but screamming "skill issue" at a playerbase that's super familiar with the game ain't it, little guy.
I think certain players do get insta killed by said move. That said, I never had issues with Malenia like I said, and actually really like her as a boss. Its the DLC bosses that bug me haha.
Strongly disagree there, Elden Ring was pure magic even before the DLC and its success shows it. The huge sprawling fantasy experience of the lands between was unlike anything. I honestly don’t think they will ever hit that high point again. I would argue if any of these games needed a DLC it was Bloodborne. I felt the base game was really short and pretty dull when it comes to bosses.
Your entire premise is wrong. The game has a 92% approval rating on Steam. What you're mistaken about is the initial release of the game. It was unbalanced initially. But within a few days of release From Soft had rebalanced the difficulty in the beginning. This DLC was amazing. I'd give it a 9.5/10. Better open world level design than the base game.
I mean I'm glad you liked the game and enjoyed. I did mention in the video that there ARE a good chunk of players that will enjoy it and why. I do recall there was a dip on Steam ratings at one point, but hey, its great that its doing well again. My disliking the DLC doesn't invalidate your liking of it here, so to each his own. :)
@@hardreseto with all due respect your thoughts makes no sense and you're just unwilling to put in the time and effort into learning these challenging bosses and just by how you put it you gave the impression that you also don't have the penitence for it as well
this is just wrong lol. SOTE is an expansion for everyone who likes elden ring. its literally just more elden ring. I completely fail to see how its different in any way from the main game in terms of core experience.
I mean, I agree that some of the boss fights suck, but I also think there's other issues. That said, boss fights are one of the big draws of FromSoftware games, so maybe that is where things end for a lot of people.
I think it has more to do with the fact that Miquella's big thing is just to repeat what Marika did, and then revive Radahn. Its pretty lukewarm compared to all the depth that the base game has.
Corrections as Pointed out by Comments: (Will update as more corrections appear)
- The Locking yourself out of Huge Swaths of Content is incorrect. Despite what previous FromSoftware games have done, you actually can do a lot of the content even AFTER beating Mesmer,
It will sound crazy but my highlight was the Shaman Village🥲 the lore of Elden ring lives rent free in my head
I can see lore fans really loving that reveal. I actually did like that fact, although I think I just wanted more info, but that's always a thing in FromSoftware games haha. That and the Miquella stuff was less impressive to me, compared to all the interesting stuff in the base game.
My feeling about the bosses is they're very UNFUN to learn but fun to fight. If that makes any sense. Its like every attack is a gotcha attack, every attack is delayed, every attack has an aftershock effect, every boss has hard to differentiate positional attacks, every boss needs and on and on. Each of these need to be identified (which can be hard for attacks with small tells and attacks being positional), memorize their tells, internalize the delay timing, etc. A lot of movesets are totally unintuitive and remove the reactionary element. Like Bayle freezing midair before dive bombing you. Like nothing about what your seeing can be trusted. And I think thats why a lot of people were reminisce of DS3. Because you could spontaneously react to most attacks instead of being smacked on the back of the head constantly like "why didnt you know he was gonna freeze midair stupid". Hence unfun to learn but fun to fight. Once you internalize the weird ass timing of Messmer's spear uppercut THEN it can be fun
Doing a challenge run on Rellana was absolutely miserable. She's quite literally the most complex and layered boss they've ever made.... and I didnt realize it on my first playthrough because I had a high enough blessing level to scrape a win. Its actually crazy how much is going on there. For better and for worse.
Also the converse is true in regards to the scadufragments. Its also easy to unintentionally overlevel and be robbed of a good boss fight. Especially in the 2nd half of the game where they start chucking fragments at you like crazy. Romina, Gauis, Sunflower and Midra I ended up killing in 5 tries or less because I had no idea that I shouldn't upgrade my blessing level lol. You spend the whole dlc wondering if its hard or you're underleveled. Wondering if its easy or your overleveled. Its ridiculous. Like Fromsoftware just get me in the ballpark. Its okay if its a little easier or a little harder but steamrolling half thw bosses because I overleveled? Cmon
I think the unfun to learn thing is definitely true. I think for me, even AFTER I learned the bosses enough, there were many that didn't feel all that great to beat. That said, I did get what you were saying with regards to Messmer, as I had a great time and was actually able to beat him pretty quickly (quickly being like within 10 or so tries).
Like you though, I'm not sure if that's because I was overleveled at that point with regards to the Scudtree Fragments.
And while I hated certain bosses for how weird and unintuitive their movesets were as you mentioned, what I hated more was getting through an entire dungeon and then beating a boss on my first try. As you said, in the latter half of the game, I ran into that with a lot of the optional bosses and Mausoleums.
I guess SOTE was playtested for people like me because the abundance of smithing stones didn't bother me, I got through about half the non Remembrance bosses without any upgrades, and I absolutely just loved the map and lore even more than the base game. Its a big too big just like the base game map, but they didnt really have a choice there since they have to make it feel similar to what they've already done, but even the empty areas to me are total vibes for the most part (worst area is that forest with the Bear Communion boss).
Totally get that. As I mentioned in the video, there was going to be a decent chunk of players that would really enjoy these aspects of the game. I enjoyed SOME of them myself, especially the new weapons, so I think that's totally fair to love the DLC and SOTE. In fact, I wish I had felt the same way :)
@@hardreseto my hope which seems. To be confirmed already is that FS goes on a run of smaller new IPs that don't rely entirely on Miyazaki to helm. He's expressed a desire to see others creators at their company make the games that they want, not just what he wants, which I think is an amazing sign. Opposite of Todd Howard.
@@geordiejones5618 Agreed that whole comment from Miyzaki was such a great thing to hear. I made sure to include it at the last part of the video!
Yeah those smithing stones are great if you want to use the new weapons. Yeah, I could buy them, but I don't have a problem with getting a bunch for free.
I don't think players can be divided so simply into just two camps. It's not just that there are players who enjoyed the DLC vs players who didn't.
Personally speaking, I absolutely loved the exploration in the DLC. It exceeded my expectations, not only recapturing, but improving on the sense of endless wonder I had playing the base game.
Where the DLC really faltered for me, however, was the difficulty, and not because it was either too hard or too easy. Rather, it was incongruent. The regular enemies, field boses, and side-dungeon boses were all easy enough that I never even felt the need to level up my Schadutree Blessings, but the rememberace bosses... those were just built on an entirely different level and were so much harder than anything else in the DLC that trying to fight them often felt like playing an entirely different game.
Speaking of Schadutree Fragments, I don't think the scavenger hunt is anywhere near so bad. Especially after the first balance patch, even just slightly over half, 26 out of 50, is enough to get a boost of 85% out of the max 105%. You really don't need all of them, at least not in basic NG difficulty, and because blessing level carries over into NG+, it's simple to finish maxing out there with all the respawned fragments.
I mean, for me it is kinda binary. Overall, I either loved it or felt let down and didn't. I'm sure there is an in between somewhere, but I feel like for fans of the base game, you're more likely to fall into those two camps. A lot of this is generalization based on what I've found online too, but hey, I'm not saying its 100% accurate. Likely only FromSoftware has THAT data.
I actually agree with you on difficulty, especially on easy or too hard. There's always stuff you miss out on covering, but I had multiple points where certain side bosses (Gaols, Catacombs) were SUPER easy, likely because I had too many Scudtree Fragments and Blessings at that point.
I mean, it may be a question of skill here, but I absolutely felt like I had to have as many fragments as possible for some of the rememberance bosses in the later parts of the DLC.
31:00 I'm going to respectfully challenge this point a bit, but I also want to understand what "huge swathes of content" you're referring to that is being locked upon progressing the Shadow Keep. From my understanding, defeating Messmer only progresses the Hornsents questline and nothing else. Approaching the tower will progress all NPC questlines, but you don’t necessarily miss out on important moments prior that. The NPCs just move to new locations (Freyja, Ansbach) or remain where they are (Leda, Hornsent, Moore, Thiollier) until you interact with them. Im my experience, I was freely able to explore the tower without missing out on questlines because I went too far or fought Messmer. If anything, reaching the tower opens up a swathe of content and new areas. Open to having my mind changed, but I would argue that the Shadow Keep is a return to what made the original Dark Souls trilogies level design so iconic----the verticality, sense of scale as you ascend the tower from both inside and outside, and the interconnectedness with the surrounding area that you mentioned.
I'll honestly admit that I wasn't aware that the questlines for NPCs were still available post Shadow Keep. I always assumed that once you defeated Mesmer a lot of them left the Shadow Keep. So I think that is a huge improvement from past FromSoftware games if true.
Appreciate the insight and extra info here! I'll be sure to put this and a few other corrections in a pinned comment!
Very interesting perspective, and thank you for your respectful tone! I personally loved SOTE, and I loved the Consort Radahn fight. I loved how apocalyptic it felt, the idea that you are fighting a full God. The almost comical level of difficulty was something I both expected, and savored. Like you said in the video, I expected a grand "send-off". However I can also absolutely understand why others may be frustrated and turned off by things like that.
Elden Ring was my first very Fromsoft game and it was BRUTAL in the beginning, but I grew to become absolutely addicted and obsessed with it. I finished the base game 4 times (3 different characters plus one NG+), and I've finished SOTE three times with three different characters (a bleed build, a mage, and a STR/FAI build).
Right back at you with the respectful comment! Much appreciated!
I'm honestly glad to hear that you enjoyed SOTE, and that it hit those high points for you. Like I said, there were aspects that I enjoyed as well, and I do wonder if I'd enjoyed Radahn a bit more if the performance issues hadn't made the fight infinitely harder for me.
@@hardresetoThat might have been one of my saving graces, I am running the game on an Nvidia RTX 3070, a pretty beefy card, and didn't have any framerate or performance issues. But that does suck that's so many other people had those issues.
I loved the expansion. It took me back to my favorite game and required more content than I expected, and I'm sure I missed a ton of stuff. I just wanna go again from the start of the base game to the end of the dlc
That's honestly great to hear. I really wanted that same experience, and wasn't able to get it. Just out of curiosity what build were you playing? And how many times did you play the base game before this? :)
@@hardreseto started out as a samurai and had the Nagakiba for most of my journey. Then I ran the moonveil for a while. And for most of the dlc I was powerstancing two greataxes with the Flaming Strike Ashe of War
Played the basegame once before with 160 hours. I was rocking samurai builds most of the time, my favorite was the Nagakiba. I switched to the Moonveil in the late game. In the DLC I mostly ran a Strength build where I powerstanced 2 Greataxes with the Flaming Strike Ashe of War.
@@lopesrafi99 Nagakiba is an awesome weapon. I believe I used it for a good while, and then switched to Rivers of Blood. Samurai builds are awesome! I haven't tried Duel Wielding Great Axes, but it sounds like a really fun play style. Thanks for satisfying my curiosity and for the comments! :)
@@hardreseto the double axes was unexpectedly good. Good stagger potential, had lots of poise and flaming Strike gave you some powerful AoE. I would also put some faith on my Str build so I can buff up with "golden vow" and "flame grante strength" on difficult fights.
I saw someone describe Elden Ring as FromSoft's Skyrim and now I can't unsee it, especially after they snuck in the Torrent patch for Elden Beast with the DLC patch
maybe we should let FromSoft GITGUD unless we want Elden Ring to really be their Skyrim; the last universally beloved game and the tipping point for their worst habits
Someone else said who posted a review said "the worst parts of SotE feel like the best parts of Starfield" and it really hurt my soul that I can't really argue against that. Especially with how it really shows, as you say, the bad habits. The Curseblades are the biggest example to me. I can deal with them, but it just takes me out of it when a scarecrow in a loincloth can poise through jumping, duel-wielding heavy katanas AND can also poisebreak nearly everything short of the Bullgoat set by slapping you with a fucking hollow dinner plate AND can also shoot you around like a loose firework. Everything about how they work feels like the devs are terrified of being accused of making something easy. Because FromSoft games are Hard! It's what they are, dammit!
And Bethesda games have loading screens every 2 seconds...
I recall the same video. I will say that Bethesda's fall from grace has been hard to watch. I actually bought a Series X when Microsoft bought Bethesda, expecting to be wowed by Starfield.
Like that video you mentioned said though, it was people constantly defending Bethesda after Skyrim that led to a lack of innovation and change for the studio. Feedback from players and critics is really important, especially for the more successful studios.
I mean, look at how Cyberpunk 2077 turned things around.
@@hardreseto Wasn't every game Bethesda made post Skyrim constantly panned by fans? Skyrim itself was also panned by Oblivion fans even back when it first came out in 2011 and may even be community consensus today. It's like a Chrono Cross situation where fans are mixed on it yet critics loved it. Same went for Fallout 4 AND by a some extension THREE. And Fallout 76 was one of the most hated and criticized games in the last two decades where videos crapping on it reached millions of views. Fans didn't kill Bethesda. Bethesda killed Bethesda. Not to mention there aren't even that many positive longform ER vids on youtube rn, with Joseph Anderson's initial ER critique being extremely well received, as well as his dlc followup which shared some sentiments. And before that people crapped endlessly on Sekiro for being a glorified rhythm game with no variety. And before that with Ds3 for being a shallow reconstruction of Ds1 that was too easy with bad lore with enemies that had Bloodborne speed. And before that with Bloodborne for the consumable healing system and bad frames, and before that with Ds2... You get my drift.
And this was back when From would RARELY nerf bosses or barely even supported these games post launch like they did with ER.
This comment literally came from Joseph Anderson's absolute trash video, he is so wrong with that comparison, there's not a shred of similarity between Skyrim & Elden Ring except that both are open-world games.
From Software has always been criticized to oblivion with every game they released, SOTE is no different, even before Skyrim, a lot of people were hating on Oblivion, what made Bethesda bad is themselves, the corporate greed, the AAA Western gaming market cynicism & the inability to improve or change, Elden Ring improved a heck of a lot over Bloodborne & Dark Souls 3, it literally is the biggest departure in From Software's history since Demon's Souls when analyzing its design on a fundamental level.
What do you mean by "we should let FromSoft GITGUD?" This is an appalling idea, who is the right person to tell FromSoft how to "Git Gud"?, this is an absolutely ridiculous statement, what if there are people that love Elden Ring & its DLC expansion? (it is the highest rated FromSoft game in history, the highest sales & the most beloved by fans, wins almost all the time in most Souls UA-camrs' polls when compared against Bloodborne, DS3, DS2, DS1 & Sekiro). From Software are always innovating & improving upon their game philosophies, and Shadow of the Erdtree is no different, they're showing no sings of stopping at all, who are you to tell what FromSoft should do next? What if I disagree with your criticism or the things that you want from their next release or anything like that? Am I a fanboy that needs to be shut down because my opinion is different from your God Joseph Anderson? What are you guys talking about? This is an extremely absurd comparison, I cannot believe the Delusions of Grandeur & entitlement has reached this level.
There's this very recent video that criticized this "critique" mentality by Gred Glintstone, and it mentioned Joseph Anderson a lot, and I think he absolutely destroyed him in a calm, respectful manner, it is the best video essay I've ever watched about gaming. It must be watched! ua-cam.com/video/Ftk5xMeJito/v-deo.html
regarding the boss design were you said that there are almost no windows to attack these bosses yaa highly disagree that bud. from your rellana example there are multiple things you did wrong, first take off the radagon sorseal it makes you take more damage like use dragoncrest greatshield or the shard of alexander, second there are times in the video were you dodge twice in a panic and dodge backwards. not only are you not in a position to attack her because you are too far away but dodge twice effectively forfeited your turn since dodging a second time takes more time. You should have been figuring out when the combo ends, dodge the last hit into the boss for you to not take damage and also be in a near enough position to attack the boss which is easier with blind spot. you were also not using your weapon skill properly as you were using blind spot too early when the combo did not end. the two overhead shoulder attack can be blind spot, the carian sovereignty attack can be blind spot, the thrust attack can be blind spot. again really don't want to come across as saying "git gud" but if you are saying that the bosses do not give you an opportunity to attack as a melee build that is false as i've done multiple melee builds with zweihander cragblade build and straight sword square off build and they performed well enough if you take the time to lab the boss' moveset. now if your main complaint with these bosses is that it is not fun process or not worth time investment to learn these bosses then i can totally understand but if you are going to be saying that the bosses give you almost no windows to attack that is something ii cannot agree with. Also don't want to sound like a huge elden ring glazer so i'll also say that i do agree that the world feels empty, performance issues suck, rewads for exploration are hit or miss
you just proved his point by showing everyone how overcomplicated these boss designs are, this is not fun but more like learning for an exam lol.
@@davidschulz2636 again if you do not like how overcomplicated the bosses are or how much time and effort it is to learn then no arguments here from me, I respect your opinion. BUT if you are going to be saying that the boss has almost no window to attack with melee builds that is false which he specifically stated that in the boss design part. He should have said something like " I did not like the learning process of these boss fights" or "I think that It is just too tedious for me to learn" something along those lines instead of saying that the bosses give you no window to attack or that the bosses has super long combo strings. Its all subjective at the end of the day, some people i know like how complicated these bosses are while others find it tedious, no right or wrong answers for that.
Yah idk i had no problems with Rellana
I think I actually might've made a mistake by including footage of my earlier attempts. I actually spent a good day on Rellana learning her move sets and labbing her. That said I think my last few attempts where I did learn how to dodge her and get an attack in were better. Blindspot was inconsistent for me, mostly because of the performance issues, which I think might be related to those attack windows.
In the end, in some of those windows you mentioned, I'd get one attack in, do a little bit of damage, do a huge round of dodges (and yes double dodge doesn't work, your stamina goes down too quickly AND you can run into another attack). And maybe "non-existent" was exaggerating a bit, but even compared to Malenia in the base game, I felt like the windows were so small, for multiple bosses. The only time I got to sucessfully get massive damage and a bleed proc on Rellana was when she was transitioning to her second phase.
And it is worth noting, that despite my experience with Soulsborne and Souls likes, I'll freely admit I'm not very good haha. I aspire to play the games with a level of skill though, so I guess the process of getting to play skilled felt a lot more punishing this time around than Base Elden Ring (let alone games like Sekiro and Lies of P).
Thanks for the comment and perspective! I'm not expecting to be 100% right about everything, as a lot of this analysis has to do with my personal experience and what I've observed online. :)
@@davidschulz2636 I think the issues get more complicated with the performance issues. The tells are a lot less telegraphed, and it really is just memorization at that point for me. The exam analogy isn't too far off.
My main goal since the main game is exploring, that's why I can maintain my enjoyment even bosses are harder to fight as long as there are still more places to explore. And for this reason, I still stuck with the last boss until today lol
Were you able to beat him? I think the last patch did fix him up quite a bit!
@@hardreseto I still don't have time to play, but already heard about that. I may try again soon!
I'm in the camp that got the best experience from the DLC and it consolidated Elden Ring as my favorite game. I felt like it improved in a lot of aspect : map design, art direction, music, weapons, npc quest, boss design, lore to name a few. The world was a wonder to explore and I naturally wanted to search every details and uncover all its secrets. I would agree that the good items rewards were spread fine. But I mostly had a laugh when opening a chest with some stones in it. Wasn't that different when you'd find mushrooms and flowers in the base game. The new weapons and amors were top notch and every build archetype could easily add 2 to 4 weapons to their arsenal. I think because of the difficulty, most people might have been discouraged to try them out. Adding learning a new move set in that environment feels like adding to the task. But those like me who invested and experimented with them were greatly rewarded with stronger weapons and a more adapted play-style for the bosses. Some exemples : fighting Rennala with the Mylady (the Wing Stance leap dodging some of her attacks) , the Great Dragonkiller Katana against the drakes and Bayle (Ashe of War repositions you to hit their heads), the backhand blades for Mydra etc. That would also make fighting the reused enemies fresh or at least, less of a drag.
To your point that some of the play-styles are invalidated in some boss fights (your exemple was Dex and Rellana), I would agree but would like to bring up that it was also present in the base game, just not for every build archetypes. I played a magic build on my first try at Elden and when you get to the Academy, it's a nightmare. The entire donjon, enemies and bosses make all your level investment useless. Zombies steals your mana on grab, everyone has so much magic resist, you're forced into using a shitty sword with 10 str and you can't even re-spec cause it's gated behind the main boss. All I want to say is that Fromsoft is not shy on presenting a challenge that will give different experiences in difficulty depending on builds but will give such diversity in options to tackle them and propose such variety in encounters that those will be ironed out on the overall experience. I did four full completions of the game with Strength, Magic, Faith and Dex. They all have very different difficulty spikes, counters and advantages but all have the tools to beat the game and even borderline break and trivialise it. The core of the difficulty in this games always been attached with acquiring knowledge of the game mechanics and learning the move sets of enemies. I feel like this DLC really caters to the players that balance those two aspects. From what I've seen from other players, the ones with methodic and careful exploration, reading items description, engaging with the npc's quest line had a far better experience that the ones that rushing to the donjon to fight the boss. While those two types of players could have a similar enjoyable experience in the base game with the ability to farm runes to catch up, the DLC doesn't have this option and tie the power progression to exploration.
On the Scadu blessings, I don't think it's a perfect system but it did fix their main issue about over levelled characters tackling the dlc and reseted everyone to zero. The fact to have to hunt them on other play through can be annoying but is not different as gathering Tears, Seeds and Stones in the base game. It also brings the advantage to pace your own difficulty curve on those repeated runs. It does make the game difficulty in a fragile balance. Those missing on blessings, with the pace and aggressivity of the bosses here, will have a very frustrating experience. Especially the ones that refuse to abandon a challenge and come back later. While it was manageable in the base game, the DLC really punish this. An other exemple is the Leda fight where if you engage with the quest lines you can summon your allies against hers. It again rewards the players that engaged fully in the exploration and lore. You can either end up with a frustrating gank fight where you have to face 3 to 4 npcs or an explosive narrative showdown between all the characters you met in your adventure in a great battle of 8. The difference of experience depending on your approach is drastic.
To touch a bit on my feelings on the bosses, I had a blast with most of them. Mesmer, Mydra and Bayle are the peak of Fromsoft for me and even surpass base game bosses. Some enjoyable mentions are the Lion, Rellana and Putrid, they all have minor issues that keep them from greatness (respectively cam issues, long combos and running away too frequently). Romina and Metyr suffer from being really cool design but a bit of a let down. Gaius being the only black sheep having very frustrating hit-boxes. For the most part all those boss offered me a great challenge taking around 30 tries on average witch I expect from a post-game DLC. Keeping the late game intensity with less frustration (Fire giant, Godskin duo and Maliketh are for me exemple of frustrating end game fights). I do agree that the difficulty curves on them are more steep. Boss rushes you out the fog gate and you're lucky if you survive a few seconds in the ring with them on your first attempts. But it made it even more satisfying when i ended up finally beating them at the end. The stakes felt raised without going into unfair territory. Talking about unfair, Radahn is for sure the most disliked thing in the DLC but I kinda like his fight. I know I'm on the minority on that one and I'm a weirdo that liked Elden Beast too. But to express where im coming from I feel like this fight has to be compare to Malenia. Being the great challenge that borderline on sadistic that suppose to be the ultimate test of the game. I felt that Radahn was an improvement on that concept. Malenia makes me frustrated to no end mostly because of Waterfall that makes every moment in the fight about that move, witch means that when I beat her it feels more like luck than skills. Radahn on the other hand felt like a real test of rolling, patience and build optimisation. He did had some problems. The patch he received does fix the issues I feel. It is unfortunate that he was released in that state and that It will be most people experience of that fight. Same with the performance problems. I didn't have much problems playing on console except for the Radahn fight but I fixed it by changing a few settings. PC versions seems to be the people the most affected, but it hasn't been a strong suit of FromSoft in the past. They should for sure be more careful with that in the future. I think the strongest point against the DLC success is here.
Thanks to anyone who followed that rambling. Great video, you got nice production value, some great research on the topic and your opinion always feels framed in a subjective and fair way. Even if our experience and opinion on the DLC are far apart, I understand all your points and where you coming from. It's a bit rare in the space right now where people seem more interested to bash the game for views and I respect that.
Peace
Appreciate the long and detailed comment! Lots of cool insight there!
I'll start with the thing that really stood out to me, your experience of being a magic caster in Base Elden Ring. Now that I recall, there were a bunch of people who got stuck at Renalla in Base Elden Ring because of their builds.
I think for my case, like you said, there were less builds that ran into that issue in the base game. If anything I'd say that's a valid critque of the base game, and I can see why some people disliked even the base game, which I feel is a lot more accommodating to a lot of different builds/play styles.
I won't disagree with you on difficulty in FromSoftware games always being about lack of knowledge. Learning and getting more familiar with the world, dungeons, locations, enemies and systems has always been at the core of their games, and Elden Ring and even SOTE is no different.
I think my issues just stem from being one of those people that had their particular playstyle becoming "invalid" or at the very least really difficult to keep going.
I could've definitely switched to some of those builds I mentioned, but I really took to the Dex/Backhand Blades playstyle, and wanted to play the game that way. I think the difficulty of the bosses does expect that you're an expert in your particular build and weapons, so bosses like Rellana can really punish you because you're not as familiar with the new weapons.
I was definitely more adept with the Backhand Blades in the later stages of the game, than early on. For certain bosses, I switched to a Medium Armor/Milady/WingStance setup and that did work, but again, I was never a fan of having to do that.
That said, I totally 100% get why you loved the DLC, and I can definitely see why. I think you just took on the bosses in a more interesting, explorative way than I did, and tried out a lot more different things.
I think for me the performance issues also made certain boss fights really hard (Dancing Lion, Rellana, Midra).
Appreciate the long comment and insight! Honestly glad you liked the video, and your response is exactly what I was looking for when I made it! Thank you!
DLC weapons are a big step up imo, tons of new fun stuff.
Totally agreed. Really loved the few weapons I tried. I do hope that people who play SOTE, experiment with the weapons because they are easily some of From Software's best.
Idk the only bosses that gave me real trouble was Mesmer and Promised Consort. I switched my build up to meet each boss and my play style. Fire for the sunflower (flame fall upon them, melts him), lightning for bayle. Torrent makes the gauis fight ez. Even promised consort, I should've just switched to a tank build it would've been wayyy easier. For most people this DLC requires you to use all the new toys Elden Ring gives you.
That being said these bosses are the most fun I've had in Elden Ring. Makes Malenia seem easy.
I also think a lot people came in on, maybe not on NG +7, but they definitely came in with a NG +7 mindset. Like.. they had a chip on their shoulder.
Interestingly Mesmer was probably the easiest of the Rememberance bosses for me, and the one I really enjoyed fighting.
I think the fact that the game required you to switch up your build is definitely something I could see people enjoy. I like playing in a particular style, so being forced to shift my entire playstyle for a boss, feels very different from base Elden Ring. I kept one build (Dex/Bleed) the whole way through and was able to get through it all.
@@hardreseto ya I never had to change my whole build. But I would look to my options for range, stagger, fire damage, etc with my build, horse/no horse. Which I mean my build was faith/dex which I'll admit is the most versatile build. I'd also use items where I thought it would help. Like for promised consort I equipped meat dumplings, warming stones, and pots for my mimic to use.
But ya now I'm doing it with a bleed build no summons. But doesn't mean I'm not gonna explore my ranged, stagger, and aoe options within that build.
Nice video! Love to see people talking about SOTE. I kept myself mostly blind about SOTE before launch and kept myself in the dark until I was done. When I emerged from my cave to see that it was controversial I was quite shocked. I absolutely LOVED it, it’s my favorite thing any game company has ever produced, taking the crown from the base game which was my favorite before.
I think it’s fascinating how different people can just have such different opinions. For example you talked about the shadow keep being a nexus point for the other areas as a bad thing, but that was one of my absolute favorite things. I can also say that I had no trouble completing all the NPC quest lines blind, as to me it was obvious that fighting major bosses like Messmer would progress things. I really appreciated all of the upgrade materials because I was constantly trying out new weapons. I also liked the cookbooks because of the lore descriptions and I did use a fair few of the hefty pots. I never found all of the scadutree fragments, fighting the final boss at 19 instead of 20, but I was able to beat him and he was actually one of my favorite bosses of all time, though it was very hard (about 1500 deaths). I found every single boss to be very hard, but still extremely enjoyable; my least favorite was Gaius because of no unique music, and my favorite was actually the dancing lion repeat fight with the basilisks, mechanically that is my favorite fromsoft boss. I found the vistas jaw dropping, the secrets wonderful, the lore fascinating, and the new enemies to be a great challenge.
I recognize that I am a bit of an outlier in that I love bashing my head against a boss for hours and hours. I’ve been a long time souls fan, and I have always loved the challenge. Even when fighting the final boss for almost a month, I was absolutely euphoric the whole time, enjoying every attempt.
I played on NG+ and used a longsword with spinning slash for the majority of the DLC, including the final boss, and did not use any summons. I did use some incantations as well, such as lighting spear, lord’s divine protection, and black flame protection. Just thought I should mention my build as it may be coloring my opinion in one way or another.
Edit: I did test out all of the new summons, just not against bosses.
I mean honestly, that's grand to hear. I almost envy you because I "Wanted" and "hoped" to feel what you did from SOTE. I think skill and just general ability to play From Software's games, also factors into it. Reading your comment and experiences with the DLC, I can just unequivocally say that you're better at the games than I am. I've never been able to handle NPC Questlines in FromSoftware blind, so that in itself, is impressive to me.
As for the bosses, I actually share your love for figuring out the bosses. Its just in this case, I felt like my tools and build weren't a great fit for the battles I was facing. I absolutely positively loved Sekiro in the same way you described. I think I spent 3 days trying to beat the Secret Owl Boss, and had a grand time, every moment of it.
In the DLC, The only fight I loved was Mesmer, but that one was pretty easy, so I can't say that didn't color my opinion.
Honestly, after your comment and a few others, I'm thinking of trying out the DLC with a different build and seeing if some of my issues with at least the bosses are mitigated.
Also, Thank you for the nice comment!
@@hardresetoWow really fast reply damn. With regards to the NPC quest lines, I was REALLY thorough with exploration. I would fully explore every map section before collecting the next fragment, and then fully explore that one, always keeping legacy dungeons for last. I did miss two of the forager brood, but other than that found every NPC at every location they appear.
Another thing that really helped was taking notes. I would take note of any interesting architectural feature or lore description, and any NPC dialogue.
In total my first DLC play through ended up being about 300 hours, about 50 of those being on the final boss. I actually only just recently finished it.
I also fought pre-patch Radahn, and yeah the double slash was hard to learn. I actually beat him a while ago, but was stuck for a long while trying to find the way into Hinterland.
@@hardresetoThis is going to sound so shocking, but I actually didn’t like Sekiro nearly as much as the other souls games. Mechanically yeah it was insanely impressive but I just didn’t find the aesthetic or lore as interesting to me. I also didn’t like having a set character, but I do recognize that some people love that.
DLC bosses are much more fluid. Initially it feels like they keep attacking without break, but then you find a break eithin the cycle and it becomes a fluid unbroken pattern of movement. You dance!
I feel like the dance felt a lot more fluid in the base game of Elden Ring. That said, I get the whole idea of bating out enemies and getting them to mess up. Its pretty common in fighting games, and there's no stamina meter there. That said, I feel like the dance can't work if both partners can't keep up the same rhythm.
@@hardreseto git gud
@@-Cybin I mean, I did beat the DLC... But hey, I hear you. I can always get better.
@@-Cybinthe one time when that phrase actually should be used. some ppl just want an easy experience and don't want to get good. these people just need to learn the bosses instead of complaining. I personally didn't like the dlc tooooo much bc the exploration and legacy dungeons sucked. the bosses were peak
yes I love it when sote bosses clip dash 10 metters from their previous locaiton to cheese you with a hit. Insanely intuitive design
I disagree with majority of the points raised in this video.
- I'm not seeing this big divide that you're talking about, all I'm seeing is the "critique" channels farming on it just like they used to do in the past with the base game, are there disappointed base game ER players (which is weird in & of itself), yes there are, but they do not make up anywhere near what you're alluding to, it's mostly been rated very highly on Steam (Chinese reviews influenced the ratings, 35% of those ratings were due to the implementation of an Anti-Cheat system), Metacritic & just the fan reception has been mostly good, so I don't see it being THAT divisive. I'm a huge ER fanboy & I LOVED SOTE to death. Are there issues? Yes, there are, but even the base game had issues so...
- Also the core pillars of Elden Ring's base game like difficulty & exploration have always been lambasted in the past due to its harder bosses & enemies & much more complex combat rhythm compared to older Souls games, something the older Souls fans didn't like at the beginning, now they like it, exploration has always been the best in ER base game, and SOTE is no different, albeit a bit worse if I'm being honest, but it still delivers on its foundations extremely well. SOTE is not harder than base game, if you collected the Scadutree Fragments things would fare much better for the player, after all, it's the exploration rewards.
- Managing Scadutree fragments to see if it's too low or too high has always been the case for ALL Souls games, don't tell me you didn't ask yourself that question when you were leveling up in base game, or exploring the world map before fighting Margit or Mohg or Rykard, c'mon now, it's nothing different, you always had an idea of how weak or strong you are depending on your encounters against bosses or enemies, Scadutree wasn't a very well-received system by many fans but they grew to like it now, it's a genius idea, your character stays the same without any hindrance BUT you have to explore in order to get stronger, the game even displays the numbers in front of you in gold-colored text, you don't have to collect all of them, once you reach level 12-13 (which all of them can be collected BEFORE you reach Messmer), you'll pretty much not notice any significant differences, if I were to add something to it, it would be to have more of it in the world, It's a perfectly good system overall.
- You not engaging with the new weapons is also a consistent theme even in base game, if players found their 1 or 2 weapons that they think are great, then they'll stick to them, you can't put the blame on SOTE, older Soulsborne games have always been like that, that's on the players if they don't want to change, if anything, most of the new weapons after the latest patched have been buffed in power & speed substantially, and the DLC gives you a lot of new smithing stones it's like the developer is asking you to experiment with the new weapons, because they're extremely satisfying & powerful too!
- I disagree with your whole "updated combat" section of the video, SOTE's bosses absolutely work with ANY build just like base game, they're just harder, they're only as hard as end-game bosses from the base game, except for Consort Radahn maybe as he's the outlier, because he'll destroy the Spirit Ashes rather quickly & IDK how he'll fare with magic/spell users...but none of the bosses are unfair, they're perfectly fair, with some quirks like a bit of camera issues, Bayle's fire bouncing off the rock walls then hitting you sometimes, it's the small stuff really, you just need to try harder just like you tried harder against bosses like Malenia, Maliketh, Godfrey & Radagon.
- I also completely disagree with your "Boss Design" section of the video, all I remember from people around ER's base game was that the bosses have "infinite combos" "unreactable attacks" "bad delayed attacks" "input reads" "they break the rules of the game" "infinite stamina" and all that misinformation crap, when in reality they're just much more complex mechanically so panic rolling like players used to do in DS3 didn't work, and the players are equally equipped to handle those encounters pretty fairly, mentioning Midra as an example of a boss harder than base game makes me question this whole section, he is literally much easier than most main bosses in base game & has nowhere near the aggression of Morgott or Maliketh or Mohg or even Godfrey, bosses in ER are much more complex in general, and input reads have existed since DS1, then built upon them in BB, DS3, Sekiro & finally Elden Ring, it's nothing new my guy, and I can't believe you said Rellana is harder than Malenia, yes Rellana has poise so she doesn't stagger but so did any other boss like Mohg or Morgott or Maliketh or Messmer, she has a BUNCH of openings inside her combos, yes she works for a colossal sword user, I'd argue it's even better than any other build or weapon type, that goes for all bosses in the DLC, including Radahn (post-nerf). Main bosses in SOTE have LESS input reads than base game bosses.
Also the DLCs have always focused on difficulty, this has been consistent since Dark Souls 1 DLC, Bloodborne DLC, Dark Souls 3 DLC, they've always been harder, it's nothing new my guy.
to add to this, i want to give a statistic on the scadutree fragments. after blessing level 12, you only get a 1.29% damage / damage negation buff per level on average. it drops down super hard. the later levels also require 3 fragments for each level, instead of 1 or 2. to put this into perspective: collecting THE ENTIRE SECOND HALF of all the dlc's fragments, is equally as effective as just casting golden vow once or twice a bossfight. past level 12 it really isn't that neccesary at all
@@glisteninggames2981 Yeah I was shocked when I knew that, so this goes against his arguments that he presented even harder now. Thank you for this valuable info addition to my comment. ❤
So I've seen a few comments mention this, but I'd say I'm very new to Souls discourse and just making videos on UA-cam in general. I've consumed them before of course, but I honestly didn't see these "critiques" and "issues" with base Elden Ring until very recently.
So, to me, a lot of this is new. I didn't have these issues with the base game of Elden Ring, or any of From Software's previous games (Besides DS2, which I dropped half way through).
I think your disdain for these comments and ideas is valid, especially if you've heard them before. I hadn't, and my intention wasn't to add to an echo chamber, or mislead people.
If anything, this video is meant for people who've already played the game, I warn everyone pretty early on in the video that there's full spoilers ahead, so I don't think this video is meant as a review.
And it was never my intention to farm engagement or anything like that. If anything I debated even making this video, because the more succesful videos on the channel are ones where I'm praising a game, not pointing out its issues.
The intent was just to add to the discussion here, and put out how I felt and analyzed the game. I hope its interesting to some people, and if its not, that's okay. I fully expected this video to not do well because its controversial.
Appreciate the discussion and your views, even if we disagree!
@@hardreseto Oh I'm sorry, I'm really sorry for assuming otherwise, rarely we see people like you being this understanding, don't feel bad, after all, you may not like some of the mechanics that ER bosses have or maybe you prefer linear design over the open-world. At least my comment & others let you know about a couple of things, I just hated this discourse that was echo-chamber'd hard, people used to call ER's bosses are straight up unfair & boring, and that obviously angered me because they were just wrong & decided to go with everyone that jumped the shark because it was a different game mechanically compared to DS3, that's all.
@@HeyTarnished i second this ^
Some enemy designs in SOTE are disastrous. What's sad is they didn't really have to up the diffculty for it to be an enoyable game, and they did the worst they could have, which is "make enemies do more shit"
It feels legit miserable playing a caster in the DLC, it either severely tunnels your playstyle, or your experience.
Their idea of upping difficulty was to give base enemies insane poise and 10-hit combos you need to wait out before doing anything. And objectively terrible hitboxes.
I felt largely the same, especially when it came to the bosses and stronger enemies. I hadn't played a caster or magic build in the DLC, so it seems like purely caster is a rough time as well huh? Definitely interesting to learn. I guess hybrid builds were the way to go.
@@hardreseto I went from having a full hard capped, Death Staff caster with Death rancor melting base bosses to needing 5 minutes to beat a black knight in NG+2, bcs of their ridiculous shields, and it's not like much else worked wonders.
About the same for curseblades since you have no time for long casts.
Basically most spells take forever to kill most things in this DLC.
And of course it creates the usual problem of having to resort to the 2-3 spells that can be used under pressure, Night comet, helix etc, for 90% of the run.
Being easier to die as a mage is one thing and fair, but completely defeating the purpose of glass canons is another.
imo, no upside to playing a mage in DLC compared to playing say a pure strength colossal wielder that only spams Lion Claw. It's basicaly mindless casting, only pandering to Miyazaki's cringe power fantasies.
I definitely understand both sides. I played the base game heavily about a year after it came out and just finished the dlc over this passed weekend. As a whole it definitely left me wanting more, but the moment-to-moment beats were amazing. Overall I'd say that it's worth playing through
Honestly glad to hear you enjoyed the game. For me there were definitely moments where I enjoyed the game, but there were a lot of moments that just didn't click with me, unlike the base game where I was enthralled all the way through my 200 hours with the game.
I f*ed my playthrough because I progressed while trying to discover the map, and accidentally missed a bunch of the questline checkpoints or w/e. Really miffed about it, since that's what I play for. _Maybe_ I'll replay it once, at some point. Gigantic _maybe_ though.
I am really sorry to hear that. While its not as bad as Base game Elden Ring, it IS still pretty easy to mess up questlines thanks to the Shadow Keep. I would be pretty soured by the experience if I had accidentally triggered something that killed my questlines, and hence constantly kept my PS5 auto-synch off so I could reset if I needed to.
My two takes are:
Shadow of the Erdtree should've been a standalone expansion, ala Dragon Age Origins: Awakening. Preferably with a fresh character at a mid-game starting level. Your character's integration into the story and this adventure's (lack of) integration into the main quest really makes the expansion mess with the game's cohesion. (The best variant I heard on this take was that the base game should also have been split into two games, which I cannot agree enough with, as it would have allowed for the player character's capabilities to scale up between games)
and
Shadow of the Erdtree doesn't really have it's own issues. Rather, it amplifies all of Elden Ring's base game, the good and the bad. Every issue in the expansion is also found in the base game, and every amazing part of it as well, just in the Land of Shadows they are exagerrated.
The weapon movesets and diversity is better, the camera is now your main opponent up from a side-threat, The "modern-open-world" archetype's issues with lack of meaningful rewards and generic micro-scale interactions is on full display, the world's level design feels amazing. The boss roster is incredibly unimpressive but the highlights are S tier.
I actually really like the idea of SOTE being a standalone expansion. Would've likely worked nicely and I honestly think, given how big this was, they could have released it individually. That said, I think there are certain things that SOTE relies on from the base game.
I'm not sure I agree with splitting the base game up. While that COULD be done and there was definitely enough content in there for two games, part of Elden Ring's wonder is the size of the game AND the fact that it maintains a very high level of quality throughout.
As for SOTE not having its own set of issues, I do agree that it amplifies certain issues of the base game, but also does some things less well than the base game did.
I agree on weapons, that was the best part of the DLC. And everything else you mentioned is hard to argue with here. Agreed!
As an Invader I found it mildly disappointing. I think the bosses and areas are cool, but I was really holding out for some solo host invasions zones, an increase of player totals to 6, bell bearings for everything (why stop at string?) a taunter's tongue rework, PvP incentives, most of all I was really hoping for covenants. A bunch of the weapons are fun but they were very obviously not PvP tested. It was *soooooooooo* fun getting insta-slept by shotgun crossbows right into a riposte.
Yeah I never even considered Invasions/PVP because I honestly didn't interact with that part of the game too much (I did it more in base Elden Ring).
I also remember certain PVP players/content creators really hating some of the weapons in PVP until they were nerfed a bit. Backhand Blades Swift Slash had quite a few clips online when the game came out haha.
I'm all for critique of any product, no matter how loved it is!
I do highly disagree with one point - you criticize that SOTE boss designs 'do not allow for a variety of playstyles', and claim that base game ones do. However, all criticisms you give definitely apply to base game bosses! Certain builds trivialize specific bosses. Summoning makes some bosses erratic, and buffs their health to great degrees. I personally don't see a difference between SOTE, and the first time base game was released. The criticisms here remind me very much of Malenia & Maliketh criticisms a few years back - people used to say word-by-word what you say here, but about the base game.
I have heard the issues people had with Malenia and Maliketh. That said, I personally didn't encounter them, and I actually used Malenia as an example and compared her to Rellana in the video. I think for me, Malenia was balanced by the fact that she had enough weaknesses to counter act her strengths, and you could potentially over level yourself and make her pretty easy. (A lot of people beat Malenia within 3-4 tries, and it took me about 5-10 I think? Really quick for a Souls boss that's supposed to be hard).
Maybe those issues existed in the base game, and maybe my build and playstyle (I was primarily bleed in the base game) worked to my advantage there, but I felt like even MY builds (I had three in rotation, between a Milady+wing Stance, a Rivers of Blood Bleed Build AND a Dex/Bleed/Backhand Blades build) came out to be pretty useless against a ton of the bosses in SOTE.
Maybe SOTE's issue is that the bosses are simply harder and the solutions to take them down and the viable amount of builds, are a lot less and narrower in terms of scope.
@@hardreseto Your experience is valid. Over-levelling isn't a strategy to beat a boss... but that aside, I can agree that harder bosses leads to a widening of the gap between your average build and one that would be particularly effective. However, I'll die on the hill that all builds are viable when built to support the weapons they use. If someone thinks their build isn't viable, they are either searching to cheese through the most fun parts of the game, or are simply in an area they need to avoid until they progress more. I don't think SOTE has any issues in regards to bosses/builds/similar.
@@STELEDAIM overleveling is a strategy, wtf you talking about? Any amount of power accumulation is the same principle. In fact it's a quality of experience strategy. Having more dmg per instance is the difference between having to wait through the same boring chain 20 times, over 10 times.
Also, the most viable builds especially in SOTE are what'd be considered cheese builds. Heavy load+shield+antspur strat, Strength AoW spam, good ol Bloodhounds etcetc.
Black knights invalidate like most spells with their resistances to the point its ridiculous how much easier it is to end them with a str build, and these are basic mobs. Meanwhile facing furnaces with anything other than pest threads or similar is the one of the most miserable experiences in gaming.
Why is that? Just unimaginative solutions to the question of enjoyable difficulty.
@@JohnYannoulas
Leveling up to an appropriate point for a boss = strategy.
Overlevelling = cheese.
In my eyes, cheese is anything that makes the game easy to the point at which one does not need to learn enemy movesets.
Yes, the builds you mention are "viable", but avoiding them would make the game more fun for the average player.
I don't mind Furnaces & Black knights being inversely difficult depending on your class being melee / magic.
No frustration = no reward
That said, if you truly think that the difficulty feels artificial and see it as an unimaginative solution, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
What would you do to make each of those enemies truly difficult for all builds, without relying on high resistances or health pools?
@@STELEDAIM the problem with that logic is there's no precise cut-point and people would argue on the distinctions as well.
Your logic basically paints anything other than an RL1 bare fist no armor build a "cheese", since all elements of power progression eventually serve to make bosses less of a hassle, to get you through the fight as such, and it'd be pretentious to say 99% of players don't derive their satisfaction from dominating a boss with builds that distinctly fulfil some kind of this power fantasy.
Even RL 1 runs make use of broken weapons bcs it'd be just plain unrproductive and boring not to, so like it or not this is a concession the playerbase makes daily, without even having to spell it out.
Frustration isn't of a single colour and it can derive from excitement or plain disillusion, which is what a lot of enemies in the DLC cause.
I don't know if you enjoy being one shot by a furnace grab attack with its plain dysfunctional hitbox, or being stuck in an animation from flymen grab attacks for like 5 seconds, before having to evade the next one, or Gaius' hitbox being so needlessly extended it basically "teaches" players it's randomly unavoidable, but you personally enjoying that doens't make it a sensible design element, if anything it promotes disengagement, when the "lesson" it teaches you is that X enemy will kill you with zero interactibility, or that Y enemy will waste a ton of your time.
When game criticism used to make sense, a game making its content less worthwhile to engage with used to be a point of subtraction.
Sadly, cult-like social dispersion and trends have made people think everything this franchise shits out is a "feature". The death of rational thinking in real time.
If I had a Nickel for every time a small UA-camr made a very on-Point Review of SotE that, altho many of my Opinions are quite different, still had me agreeing with the majority of it... I would have 2 Nickels. Which isnt alot but its weird that it happened twice. Warning! Great Treasure ahead!
Haha, I'm glad to be the second instance of that. Also, the fact that you see validity in a lot of the video despite having different opinions, is honestly the best result for me. Thanks for the comment!
8:01 "How do you design a game that gives that same sense of wonder, discovery & accomplishment that's lived & breathed your game?"
There are absolutely ways, especially when we're talking matters outside the challenge. Better questlines with more meaningful choices (we had more of that here so props to the team who designed that, where whoever you help or go against influences which allies you'll have in the final Leda fight) , exploration always has ways (some dungeons were awesome, with spike traps, hand placed enemies in strategic spots, avoiding death blight staring immortal enemies, etc) , and difficulty... that's harder but there are definitely ways.
You can add gimmicks, while not making the fight ENTIRELY about the gimmick & leaving it as an option for whoever wants to use it, that way also making bosses be approacheable with a more diverse set of builds cause some builds could suck vs the a particular boss, but they could be well equipped to pull off the gimmick to aid them vs the boss. And the sky's the limit here, cause you can get very creative with each. Since we're talking about raising the challenge for the improving playerbase too, make the gimmicks also have consequences if you try yet fail them.
Heck, I actually wish there was a system like that for summons, that way I'd actually wanna use 'em more cause I like the concept of you & an ally vs a demigod or outerwordly creature, but not with the way summons (most anyway, I sometimes enjoy using Shadowheart~ I mean Latenna the Abinauric), were implemented. Yes, everyone plays how they want, but it'd be disingenuous to not look at most of 'em as the "reduce difficulty" option, which also contradicts Miyazaki's speech about not wanting to lower the difficulty ~ the summons do just that! But had they did something like say, offer a consequence when spirit summoning, like say if it dies, you suffer a debuff for the rest of the fight , the debuffs all also being specific to various summons, thus also adding more lore & identity to each, suddenly u'd have a lot more nuance to them than "it makes the game easier" - some of the more interesting builds play out like this, where u'r OP if you use it well, but failing to use it well might make you feel weaker than if u'd play with a simpler build (need more like this, IMO). You gain power via an aly, but have to play around that power cause failure means u'll be in a worse spot than solo - a fair & dynamic trade-off I'd say. I'm sure talented gave devs could come up with great ideas here, alas, it didn't happen.
Even the power level thing, they could also like... change the way their hardcaps work, which if there was anytime for it, the last piece of content we'll see of this game via a dlc was it. Why must str,dex,int,faith, etc cap out at 80? Why not unlock a 99 cap? Why must vigor be god-awful after 60 and not allow players to go beyond? In unlocking these caps, build variety would also increase. U'd actually have a true glass cannon vs a tanky char, instead of every late game char running 60 vig (and if you don't, u'r rly nerfing your char). Mby add armor upgrades too, that way you get the dmg % negation of the fragments to not get 1-2 shot by every DLC boss.
Great vid anyway. I still enjoyed the DLC lots but ngl, I struggle to find reason to wanna replay it, lol. My fav part of it was something I already have now, which are what you said - the weapons, aows, spells, the deflect hard tear... (BLESS THIS THING AND WHOEVER AT FROM THOUGHT OF ADDING IT) - but I'm more eager to play with those vs base game content than DLC, cause base game's just more fun, hah. Same for recipes. I did enjoy exploring to some degree too, but it was until realizing there wasn't much to find, so once the hope I held on to keep me enthusiastic to was gone, and now as I look at the whole DLC in retrospective, I question why I even explored every inch of it and rly dont feel like going there again.
Oh quickedit but lastly, great discussion on the Malenia vs Rellana fight. Malenia, despite her notorious rep, due to her defined weaknesses, comes off as the much more prefered fight for me - I always am enthusiastic to see what strat or build I'll use next vs her. Flip or pancake her? Rykard & Death rancors spam from afar? Burn her with fiery incants while knocking her around? All that & more works well, and she feels like she reacts to what you did. Rellana just wails away at you endlessly regardless of what you do. On top of no cutscene nor dialogue lines - she'll be remembered EXCLUSIVELY for her difficulty, nothing else.
First of all, let me say that you bring some serious insight to the discussion here, so thank you!
I do agree that the questlines were more straightforward this time and had more of an impact on the main story, which was awesome to see. That's one definite improvement over the base game, where I felt like a lot of Side quests felt inconsequential to the main plot. Getting to decide your allies and enemies not only in the Leda fight, but even the final boss fight, was cool. Its just sad that the actual plot stuff around Miquella was just kind of a let down.
I really like your idea of gimmicks that are optional. Base Elden Ring already did this with the Serpent Weapon and Rykard! I would've loved to see more of that stuff in SOTE, and it would've definitely varied up things quite a bit.
I think your comments on Risk and Rewards are pretty solid, and I never thought of summons in that way. For me, Summons DOES feel like an easy mode, which is why I only used summons when there was a quest reason (aka Bayle), and otherwise really stuck to going solo (which I get is harder, but where I feel like I actually am interacting with the boss rather than letting my summon act as a decoy).
I actually said in my video that I didn't think raising the level caps would've worked, but you actually convinced me otherwise. You are totally right. At higher levels, you kind of default to certain caps whether you like it or not. Having low Vigor is not really an option, so being able to raise those caps would've most definitely led to more build diversity. I honestly wonder if that would've worked better than the Scadutree Fragment system, although I'm sure that would make the base game really easy to beat.
Totally agreed on the Deflecting Hard Tear too btw, LOVED that. I checked it out fairly late, but I WISH they had just made that a default part of your move set. Maybe the timing window didn't need to be as forgiving, but it definitely added to some fun moments, and the Sekiro player in me was really happy. That said I had invested in a Dex Build around the Backhand blades and stuck mostly to that.
Glad you liked the video and the comparison with Malenia. I too really enjoyed Malenia, and definitely feel like she was a really well designed boss. Plus the cutscenes and dialogue really helped set the mood. Its sad that a lot of the Rememberance bosses in SOTE, just kinda appear and don't have any personality or dialogue.
41:09 These DLC bosses are certainly aggressive and rage inducing, especially Radahn and Miquella, but I don’t necessarily see it as a design flaw. (Except for Radahn and Miquella i'm not upset that they toned it back in the patch)
Something I discovered while struggling and cursing at Gaius that made it click was that the bosses will react not only to our actions like healing or buffing, but also our positions relative to them. The bosses will course correct mid-combo in response to your position. Gaius taught me this when I realized at the end of one of his long combos, he would predictably follow-up with an attack depending on where I stood. If I was in front of him the boar would charge, if I was on his weapon side he's take a stab at me, if I was on his off-hand side the boar would kind of flail around to knock me down, and if I was behind the boar would kick. This realization actually made the fight way easier because now I could predict exactly what he would do and determine how I would punish it. No bullshit, once I got this aspect down I beat him on that run with barely any damage, and it was satisfying as hell.
This is applicable to every boss, and can give you the advantage. This is what the designers expect of us I believe, and in-universe, it is what makes the Tarnish so dangerous. With every death we are better able to predict our foes actions until it's as though we can see into the future, and I like to imagine the bosses are gradually realizing this fact aswell and know that as long as the Tarnished keep coming, they will inevitably kill them. This also how I took down Rellana in my recently playthrough using Bloody Milady and deflect tear, turning it into a Sekiro-style boss fight we're I could puppet her into attacking how I wanted, deflecting her, and punishing with the counter-attack until she bleeds and staggers for massive damage. Her phase transition and ash of war can also be baited depending on if you're far or up in her face, and the fire tornado will leave her wide open. It really evened the playing field knowing that by the time the OST looped, either she would be dead or I would. Very fast paced and highly punishing on both sides!
Great video by the way! Thought provoking and I enjoyed it enough that I had to comment and add to the discussion
When Gaius does a body slam, there are multiple things he can do depending on positioning
If you're in front of him after the attack ends, he does the charge and you get no punish
If you're at his side after the attack ends, he's likely to do a side thrust with the tusk. Which has a punish at the end. Or he repositions himself, which is a punish too
If you're behind him after the attack ends, he does a kick which is punishable and you can get a little hit in before it comes out.
What I always do, is go under the body slam to strafe it towards his back side. Not rolling the attack gives me a bigger punish because I don't have to wait for my roll recovery to be over. Then I predict roll his kick and punish again
That's why I like mounted bosses so much. You essentially have full control over the boss
This is entirely fascinating to note, and I think points to your ability to really discern and break down these games. I honestly love comments like this, as it enhances my own appreciation and knowledge of the game.
I definitely was at least aware of the fact that boss attacks were based on proximity (and to me it did feel like sometimes based on actions like healing), but I honestly never thought to use that proximity against them.
One of the reasons was of course, my build, where I could primarily dodge and then attack. I think certain builds allow you to bait out more of those attacks than others.
If there's one critique I'd have of the game based on what I learned from you, its that the game itself isn't amazing at communicating these nuances, which is definitely somewhere where FromSoftware can likely improve. They're amazing at teaching the player various aspects of their games organically, and maybe I just needed more direction (I'm not too pig headed to say that I'm not amazing at this games, despite how many of them I've played).
Appreciate the comment also! Really added to my personal enjoyment and appreciation of the depth in SOTE, and it was the kind of discussion I was looking forward to getting into when I made the video!
Also realized you were the one who made me realize my mistake regarding the locked content stuff I talked about. Double Thank you here!
@hardreseto I appreciate the compliment! I'm always happy to spread what I've learned to others.
But I agree that Fromsoft could stand to better communicate their systems. It's actually been a criticism I've had with every game they release, and I think Elden Ring really needed better communication since this is such a step-up in complexity and A.I. Their philosophy is for us to share our knowledge and learn by trial and error, but the issue I run into a lot is boss fights feeling like slug-fests where I don’t really learn the fight and only won due to brute force, numbers advantage, and luck, which robs me of the satisfaction that comes with outsmarting the boss on their own terms.
Something Sekiro did right was giving us that immortal NPC that we could spar with and really learn the intricacies of the system. Sekiro, to my knowledge, was the only game to offer this, but they should have brought it over into Elden Ring. It was such a missed opportunity to not just put Godfrey into Round Table hold in that open combat area where you get invaded, and just have him function as our sparring partner to help us understand the combat better. The final confrontation at the end of the game would have also be soooo much more emotional, too!
Elden ring is not for all Elden ring fans, what's your point?
I mean, if you're a fan of Elden Ring, then I'd argue it is for you. I think the point I'm trying to make is that even if you loved the base game, SOTE might not cater to you in the same way the base game did.
It’s for me. It’s finally elevated the main game to something I love.
And that's awesome to hear! Glad you liked it so much!
A nice video even though you said that bleed melee builds will be hard for bosses. I had the exact opposite experience. My bleed builds were just destroying everything. 60 arcane with the greatsword, or crescent moon axe (which I beat Radahn with) felt fairly OP. I also enjoyed using dlc weapons like the putrescent cleaver and meteoric ore greatsword. Bosses were great in the DLC in my opinion. What I didn't like about it is the vast empty spaces, rewards being mostly smithing stones you don't need and cookbooks..
Hrm... I think the one difference here is that I was a Bleed/Dex and you were Bleed/Str from what it seems like. I think Strength builds in general seemed to do better in the DLC, thanks to stagger and what not. I myself had more luck on certain bosses with a Milady+WingStance+Bleed setup.
Greatswords do seem like a fun time, so maybe I'll try them out on another play through.
Appreciate the kind words and the comment! =D
I had a good time with SOTE. I ran it solo, but I did put my sign down to help people with a areas that I struggled with just to experience it again. I had to experiment with weapons/ damage types and buffs for EVERY main boss. But that's half the fun to me. I would only change the exploration rewards. It's late game, all the smithing stones and glovewarts were underwhelming. I don't know how to fix it, but it's not a huge deal to me. Maybe trick weapons should've added.
I feel like some of the new weapons were pretty cool, with the stances and what not. Reminded me a lot of Bloodborne's weapons.
A really good shield and spear trivialized Gaius and Radahn. I get not everyone wants to use the tools provided like spells and spirit ash but a shield and spear is not fancy and is even more realistic in battle than rolling around everywhere. Idk why a number of the community either looks down upon or forgets about shields.
I actually don't hate Shields. I was Primarily a Shield Build in Dark Souls 1 and 3, so I get how fun that play style can be. That said, recently, thanks to Sekiro, Lies of P and a few other Souls like, I've moved over to the Dex Build playstyle, and Its clear that a lot of the bosses are pretty strong against that particular style of play.
I think Lies of P had a similar issue, but with Strength Builds (in that the game's heavy weapons are just too slow and can't keep pace with the bosses as well as the Dexterity based weapons do).
That said, I honestly think there's nothing wrong with Shield Builds, and if anything they're the best way to enjoy SOTE.
Or just fix Gauis' charge. He'd be a fine boss if it wasnt for that
I feel like a lot of people cling onto the idea of wanting to either be a naked hobo with a wooden club or Guts but only the Dragonslayer and no other tools like his crossbow and then get rather upset and shocked when that simple strategy just doesn't pan out like it would have in say DS3
@@salemofthedandelions1083 I dont think people "cling" to it. Dodge and hit (and now jump) are the foundational mechanics of the game. They're the only thing shared across all builds and is a good bottomline for if a boss is fun and good
Have I been playing a different game compared to the people complaining about the DLC?...
I think Fromsoft did a great job signalling and explaining very clearly how the power scaling was different in the DLC and how to compensate for that as much as you want by collecting as many Scadutree fragments as you want.
I had zero problems with that system once I understood it.
Well done on the video. I do agree with you that I think FromSoft was in a tough position in trying to create a DLC for all it's fans. As someone who loved the DLC, (despite being stuck on Radhan still), I'm in the camp that was happy with the DLC. Would I have like more to it? Yeah, but that's more because I'm addicted to these games and less because I'm unfulfilled. My Two cents on few things. Scadutree fragments would have worked better if there were a few more like the Golden Seeds. The emptiness of the Shadowland actually made sense ascetically to me, this is an abandoned land after all. I do believe it might hurt re-playability, but then again maybe not as a second play through of any game you tend to skip that which isn't important to you. I found the interconnected layered levels to be very interesting in the beginning, placing markers for areas to come back to later. I Tried opening the whole map up before really progressing the DLC. The second Finger ruin was bit meh, but loved the Shaman Village. My build was a Cross naginata/Ice Spear, and Great Shield spirit ashes up until Radahn and Gayle. I also played some with the light greatswords (fun), the new katanas, and great katanas. I always go into these games knowing I'll never get that first experience I got with DS1 ever again. I temper my expectations and go in with an open mind. It's worked out for me so far. Good luck with future endeavors.
Appreciate the kind words!
As I mention in the video, I think those that tempered their expectations were definitely in for a better time.
I think you raise an interesting point about wanting more, and how that will always be the case. I think the mismatch came from what I wanted/expected and what we eventually got.
From an atmosphere/visual standpoint, I get what you mean about the emptiness, I just wish it was also fun to explore and enjoy in the same way the base game was. It will work for some people and not for others.
Also glad to hear you tried out all the weapons! Best part of the DLC IMO!
Interesting video, you made some good points. I will say I don't think the scadutree fragments are an issue in the dlc, rather I think it's an issue with the fact you can basically go anywhere out the gate and the areas aren't scaled to you. I don't think it would have been a good decision to make the areas scale with you, but we see a similar issue in the base game. You can wonder into calied or walk straight up to marget and feel like you've hit an unfair wall of difficulty, or you can over explore and end up fighting a boss 70 levels past what the devs expect you to be at and breeze through it. It's just the unfortunate nature of elden ring.
We could imagine if elden ring was a linear game and they used scadutree fragments in a linear dlc they could much better balance each area and encounter, having the knowledge of exactly how many fragments a player could have at any given point, and if that was the case I feel much less people would see issue with them, but since the game is so open and it's always unclear what the intended fragment level (or player level in the base game) for any given Encounter is it can have players second guessing if they should be exploring to get stronger, or continue trying to fight a boss.
I do agree with your sentiment that there should be more though. I do enjoy how there are more golden seeds than needed to max out your flasks and I think adding a couple extra scadutree fragments to ensure players are more reasonably able to max their scadutree level would be a welcome change. I think I was able to find 47/50 on my first go without looking anything up, but I really enjoy exploring in these games so I could see other players finding significantly less.
Yeah I think the issue of open world design and leveling is a big one. I think I had less of an issue with it in base Elden Ring, because if I did hit a wall, I'd either go and make sure I had done the surrounding area before it and leveled up, or was just general adequately leveled since I really enjoyed the exploration, rewards and I just generally prefer doing all side content before I engage with bosses/progress the story.
I agree that scaling areas to you wouldn't really work here, but I do think SOME indication of how many Scadutree fragments you need before tackling an area or boss, would be cool. Something Rise of the Ronin does (which is a much lesser game for sure) is that it highlights things on the map in a specific color based on how high level it is. While I don't think Elden Ring needs to display levels, the simple color indicator could work?
I finished both the video and DLC. I visited every corner of the map, collected all fragments, weapons and armour, collected all possible items: cookbooks, AoWs, etc. I killed nearly all bosses without support besides Radahn and Gaius where I used a tank build. First of all, graphics, music, effects and sound artists/engineers/designers have done a brilliant job but bosses felt pretty unfair, although from an observer standpoint they were really impressive. I feel sorry for artists because in this brilliant world created by them Miyazaki didn't seem to complete his work, he hardly put anything interesting apart from short dungeons and some major field bosses. The reward from exploring entire map is little and quite unimpressive. Particularly, Abyssal Woods was quite painful to run--my finger hurt after reaching Midra's Manse because of keeping the speed button all the time. I did enjoy few new weapons s.a. Backhand Blade, Great Katanas, especially Dragon Hunter's GK, Light Greatswords but other weapons seemed kind of missed including even bosses' weapons. I am rather in the camp of those who disappointed with the DLC.
I don't want to create too long posts so I would like to comment on something Miyazaki said: "I don't think the game would have done what it did [... if we] crank the difficulty down more and more". No a single serious fan would expect an easy DLC! Assuming negative but constructive reviews, I didn't see people complained about difficulty itself but how the difficulty was achieved. With constraints inherited from the main game, they were probably left with limited options , so they had to tune up enemy mechanics to, I would call, absurd extremes, s.a. long delays, increased hit boxes that broke some bosses, faster attacks, hyper armour in combo chains, and prolonged combos catching melee players every time they try. On top of that attacks are relentless with no time for breathing. On the other hand, players did not get anything else in exchange. Apart from the Blind Point, players are left with old roll/jump/basksteps that do not work as before. This is the reason why one build can faceroll bosses while the other leave players in a state of frustration and unfairness. I think based on what Miyazaki expressed in interviews, I'd say he missed the point and didn't understand the complaints from that perspective. Having said that, I don't know how else they could achieve the level of desired difficulty, otherwise.
Yeah I agree on quite a few notes you said. In particular the part about how BEAUTIFUL and atmospheric some of the new locations are, but how little there is to do in them, was a let down.
I do feel for the art team, because areas like the Finger Ruins and the Cerulean coast are amazing the first time you see them. I think the game design team, whoever was involved, did drop the ball a bit.
I also think like you said, there were a lot of constraints from the base game. This why I mention in the video that SOTE being an expansion actually holds it back quite a bit.
Totally agree on difficulty. I expect hard games from FromSoftware, I mean, my favorite game of theirs is Sekiro, and no other game has ever pushed me as much as that game did. That said, the way the difficulty was implemented and executed, was definitely, for me, not as fun.
And to your point, there wasn't a real way to up the difficulty in any other meaningful way. Since this was an expansion, they just couldn't stray from the base game.
@@Celdorsc2 i think a lot of people get too attached to their initial builds. If your build does not work for the DLC, respec, you can do it like 12 times... you can respect for every major boss fight and it is lore justified.
Just like the ashes and everything else with what the game gives you.
@@Yo64130 I am not convinced. Re-spec'ing for a boss and then re-spec'ing back to a "preferable" build means the system is flawed, or playing with a build that "works" in the DLC does not seem like a good system, at all. Builds reflect our preferable style: Mage range, Mage melee, heavy knight, swift bandit/ninja/rogue etc. I know some builds work because many arenas (including mini bosses) were covered with red blood stains all over the place and yet I read messages s.a. "Why is it always Weak foe?", "Blood stains, Skill required ahead!" etc. etc. as if someone who chose DEX build was luck of skills while Strength allows for stun locks and pretty much faceroll the same boss with a shield and heavy weapon etc.
I know heavy armour, a colossal weapon or a great spear, and a large shield, essentially a tank build, made the adventure through SotE pretty chilled and relaxed for players. I could see that when Asmongold and Day[9] used that build. Not sure about Day[9] but Asmongold killed Gaius in the first attempt!!! The thing is I hate being a knight in fantasy games, I hate being bulky. This is why I choose a Dex builds. I did deliberately used Arcane to make bleed working and kill inconvenient enemies fast but some bosses, mostly in nameless mausoleums, were strong or immune to bleed as they were ghosts. Rakshasa is a perfect example where DEX literally didn't work at all. I had to spam Lion's Claw on Great Stars to finish her! Thank God I had access to the Lion's Claw.
I don't know. As I said, I am not convinced about how lore would justify such drastic changes in experience just because one used a certain build over the other.
@@Celdorsc2 that is the thing is not like you are modding the game or restarting a new game, respec is part of the game system. As I said you get many chances per run to do this. The system is designed for you to be able to do this if you want to or need to. It is not a flaw if it os within the rules of the game.
People get too attached to their builds and that is ok, but that doesnt mean you shouldn't or mustnt respec advance and maybe respec to something else.
Why make the game harder and less enjoyable for yourself for no good reason?
I am right now mostly an int build but I have already respec'd once as I was trying to go faith/int... My character was shit... Respc'd and now I am way better.
I want to use some colossal weapons so maybe I will try respecing if I dont like it then I can go back. Within my playthrough with the rules of the game...
I fail to see what is so hard about it other than some externaly imposed ala git gud barrier.
Do what is best for you to keep enjoying the game you like and paid for.
@@Yo64130 "I fail to see what is so hard about it other than some externaly imposed ala git gud barrier. ... Do what is best for you to keep enjoying the game you like and paid for."
"Git Gut" means to get patient and motivated, to learn a boss step by step and eventually defeat it. I did it in ER base: Malenia, Maliketh and other bosses, I did in SEKIRO with Genichiro, Ishin Ashina, Ishin Sword Saint, Guardian Ape etc., and in DS 3 with Midir. I felt progressing when approached these bosses multiple times. I can't tell the same in the DLC.
As to rest of what you said, there is the difference between "I'd rather prefer to use Strength" and "I have to switch to Strength". Can you see the difference? One is player's personal preference, the other is what the game forces a player to do or dictates the build. If you fail to see this as an issue, then indeed you cannot see why and what people complain about because you take the game design as is. It's fine by me but don't try to convince me it is OK to switch the build when I have to.
I played many games to see when there is an issue and when there is not. Even though I am thankful that a company like FromSoft exists, I still believe we all should express disappointment if something is not quite right.
I've been leaving my summon sign outside Rellana's boss room for weeks, & I assure you, there are MANY openings where a dex build can hit her.
I didnt buy erdtree cos i am a lil salty PS4 players cant own the game and DLC on disc.
I hear you there. I got the collector's edition and just got a download code. That really hit me hard man. A friend of mine got the PS5 disc standard edition that has both the base game and SOTE on disc, and I felt really ripped off. That may be a Bandai Namco thing though and not necessarily a FromSoftware thing.
Honestly I looked up one thing during my playthrough when it comes to area traversal and it was something super obvious that I missed when it was right in front of my face. I managed to find every other area and I’m not all that clever. I also waited to burn that thing because in the base game burning something meant changing the world. So I used that reasoning to wait until I was absolutely ready to do so. A little patience and thought go a long way.
Also I only play melee, mostly dex, never use shields unless it’s too parry, never use summons or magic or any range really, and I am not a challenge runner (basically, I’ve done them but I’m certainly not Gino). And I completely disagree with your assessment. This is why it’s important for you to let the viewer who might not buy it now because of those things you said and they do the things I do and now they think they won’t be able to get through it because it’s made in opposition to their play style. Because somehow I play exactly how you described, did not experience what you claimed, and have no idea what you’re talking about. It’s ok if that’s your experience and opinion based on it, but saying “this is the way the game is” isn’t objectively true.
I liked Radahn pre-nerf and beat him multiple times in multiple ways and I’m glad I did, and also I’m happy they nerfed him and fixed a lot of legitimate issues with him. I think most people are in this camp. It was a fun club to join while it was open, but indeed had mechanical issues that needed to be fixed. Learning to parry the fight was so much fun. (Video posted 😉 in account)
The one thing I'll say here is that I don't expect my video to influence anyone's buying decisions.
This video is meant for people who've played the game, or who don't care about being spoiled about the experience. If someone is looking at this video as a review, then I think I'm failing a bit here, because this is meant to be an exploration and opinion piece, targeted at those who've already played the game.
Also I mean this analysis and video is my opinion, so I think we agree there. I can totally be wrong too! And that's okay! Haha, not above hearing that.
Appreciate your insights!
personally, I think that if you think Elden Ring DLC Boss are somehow keep attacking and did not gave you a "window" to "wailing" on them, you are fundamentaly misunderstood Elden Ring Boss design. this complaint is also something people was complaining about for base Elden Ring Boss as well. because the fundamental design of Elden Ring boss is not like Dark Soul, they are not going to attack you a bunch of time, then have a opening window for you to wail on them. they demand you to dance with them. to weave your attack in between theirs. in a way, if you like Dark Soul combat, you are more likely to like turn base RPG than anything else. Elden Ring combat is much more of an action combat because of this. and some people misunderstand it as having "no opening window" to attack. sure, some people might not like that kind of combat, but that is just because they didnt like that type of combat, and not an actual criticism of the game.
I've seen that particular point quite a bit online, and I agree that Elden Ring's combat is different, but I disagree that SOTE and base Elden Ring have the same boss design.
In base Elden Ring, bosses do pause after a flurry of attacks. They have some kind of invisible stamina meter that does get depleted. They've got weaknesses and strengths. The dance as you quite aptly term it, only works if both partners are playing by the same rules. If I can lose my stamina by constantly attacking, and the boss can keep throwing out move after move after move without much pause, then well... One side doesn't have a pretty huge limitation.
I honestly never experienced the opening window issue in base Elden Ring (even with Malenia). There were ways and tricks that allowed you to deal with even the most aggressive bosses.
Personally, I wouldn't mind the bosses and their difficulty if we also didn't have a stamina bar. And I do get that a lot of the issues can happen due to builds too. That said, I think base Elden Ring just did it all better, IMHO.
@@hardreseto let me gave an example: Malekith. if you take a close look at his move set , he dont really stop attacking. but his attack are often long winded attack that if you know how, you can side step into a position to punish. but he never stop attacking unless he got stagger. SOTE is just the same concept, except the window for attacking is even more narrow, as well as how much newer the DLC was so that players dont have much experience on the boss behavior.
@@LostWallet Malekith was probably one of the more difficult bosses in the base game. That said, I think the game eased in you in a bit with his first form being pretty easy and the second form turning up the heat. I can totally see the DNA of SOTE's boss design in Malekith, but I think pushing in that direction wasn't all that fun, for me.
@@hardresetodude how much are you rolling and running to be running out of stamina? I've beaten the game and dlc several several times and many times barley leveled up endurance at all and i don't ever run out of stamina. i can also even get attacks in while dodging depending on the build. i don't use any stamina regenerating talismans or anything either. im just genuinely confused on how you run out of stamina in this game unless you are spam panic rolling or running the entire fight
they objectively have less and more steep punish windows. Not every build can afford to punish between combos bcs there's just not much time, and they get staggered out of it.
Rellana sometimes just decides to chain 3 combos together before giving you ample time to punish.
E.g. with a Blood Tax build you can;t realy punish inbetween because she just strafes it, so you are stuck with waiting for better rng.
Bosses like golden hippo do these super long windup attacks, which normally are tells for a heavy punish, but then fuck off to the other side of the arena before you can do one charged attack.
fly grab attacks thaat stagger you for like 4 seconds. Why? "Feature", answers the fromsoft stan. There are so many nonsensical decisions in this dlc it's actually funny watching people trying to bs their way over them.
I will probably die on that hill, but I have to say again that a vast open world is not a suitable concept for a "Souls" game. The base game was already full of mediocre filler content that was repeated too often, e.g. Catacombs, Erdtree Avatars, Ulcerated Tree Spirits, Watchdogs, Pumpkin Heads. The map in the base game was also already quite empty. If you didn't want to engage with the repetitive side content, you would ride from legacy dungeon to legacy dungeon. The rewards of the side content were also often lackluster with spirit summons, spells, talismans and weapons that were usually worse compared to what you already found.
DS3 and Bloodborne were much better in this regard. "Legacy dungeon" after "legacy dungeon" resulted in a much better pace. Bloodborne had with its labyrinths also some repetitive content, but it gave you proper rewards with special runes and blood gems that made your build stronger. Elden Ring likely would have had more high quality bosses instead of nonsense like the Godskin Duo fight, if they would have made the game in the style of DS3 or Bloodborne. The only positive thing about the design is that it spares new and below average players the need for grind as they can do the side content to level up.
I played the Elden Ring convergence mod and the mod vastly improves Elden Ring. Each class starts with hints, where the gear and suitable spells for their class is. You have special teleporters that spare you the riding around. You just need to defeat an easy boss to access the teleporter and after using the teleporter. Side areas were also reworked to offer a higher quality.
When it comes to the DLC. I really enjoyed it as all major dungeons were much closer to each other. The world looked stunning like the base game and even the side content improved with the gaols and the mausoleums. We got 11 rememberance bosses on a much smaller map compared to the base games 15 rememberance bosses on the vast map. Should they go open world again, I hope that they have a smaller and more quality condense map compared to Elden Ring.
You raise some important points about recycled content in the base game. There was some repetition there, but I felt like there was enough new stuff that kept me invested and interested. New enemies, bosses, things to find e.t.c.
I will also say, I LOVED the Legacy Dungeons in the base game. Beyond Shadow Keep, I don't there's one Legacy dungeon in SOTE that even comes close to the base game's excellent dungeon design.
That said, I won't disagree that DS3 and Bloodborne had better pacing. They did, and I also get that the Souls design meshing with an Open world was always going to be a tough thing to execute on. That said, I think with base Elden Ring, FromSoftware did remarkably well, and exceeded my expectations at least.
I haven't played the convergence mod, but that's really fantastic. Yet another reason for me to shell out the money and invest in a beefy PC.
Naw dawg, this thing was worth every penny and every controller I broke to beat it.
That's cool. I actually didn't have to break any controllers before beating the DLC, but I felt some of the frustration for sure.
I think the biggest thing everyone keeps missing about every one of these games when they come out is that they literally had the same complaints about what came before it. It was said about Dark Souls 3 because its combat was too much like Bloodborne. When Sekiro came out they had gone too far and it was over the top and hard for the sake of it. And then when Elden Ring came out it was over-tuned and the bosses delay attacks were insane and it was too hard. Now the exact same thing is happening with the DLC. It’s literally the same conversation over and over and over with the exact same talking points. I have no stake in whether or not someone likes something. And there is nothing wrong with critique or even criticism. But the memory loss that people seem to suffer is just exhausting. I’m not kidding when I say- all of these things people are talking about (including a lot of the ones made in this video) have been said before about multiple games and forgotten. And now they are all genius masterpieces. And I’m just turning the corner where I’ll be able to laugh when it’s all said again next time.
Specific to this though, I have to comment about something. “It’s hit or miss depending on who is playing it and why.” Ok, that’s basically “not everything is for everyone”. Which I understand is part of the point but that’s also just how everything works. Nothing will ever make anyone happy. Some people were going to be disappointed no matter what this DLC was. I’m thrilled to be in the camp that absolutely loves it. Maybe more than the base game and think some of these are their best bosses and areas they have created to date. And I wish, sincerely, that everyone got to feel that way. But that’s not possible. And I’ll be disappointed in something else somewhere everyone else is having a good time. But I think this kind of discussion is better served with analysis instead of criticism and I think this video is trying to walk that line and I appreciate that. I’m sure I’ll be gritting my teeth at some points made here, just purely based on subjective descriptions of what interaction with the DLC is like. But I do appreciate the attempt. I guess my point is to pick one or the other. Blending the two tends to be an approach that turns me off because it starts to sound like “My subjectivity is objective”. This doesn’t mean needing to start every sentence with “In my opinion…” But it does mean carefully walking the line.
I think what's most interesting about that repeating cycle of these complaints coming up again and again, is that its different games and different points that kind of make certain people hit that breaking point.
I never experienced these issues with any of FromSoftware's previous games, and this was my first instance of feeling this way. So I think its less memory loss, and more different people hitting that point at different times.
I loved DS1, Bloodborne, and especially Sekiro. Sekiro was hard, but it never felt frustrating or unfair to me.
I totally get being in the Souls community and seeing this again and again and being annoyed by it, and all I can say is I apologize if you've heard this before. I've been largely insulted from the general community and been enjoying these games on my own, so for me all of this IS new.
I think what I meant to say with Hit or Miss, is more regarding fans of the base game of Elden Ring. To me, its just fascinating that there's such division between people who LOVED the base game, but then the DLC doesn't quite work for them. My explanation for that is its tied to build and playstyle more so than anything else.
I apprecaite the kind words here, and I'm happy to hear opposing points of view. One thing that I look forward to after making these videos, is hearing other prespectives and learning new things that I didn't consider! As you can see, I respond to a lot of comments, because I generally love the discussion part of the process!
I agree with a lot of your arguments but I don't get the complaints about the Shadow Keep and interconectivity. I find it brilliant. Overall The Land Of Shadow has the best map I've ever seen and engaged with in games. My experience was so fun and experimental. I took my time and found about 85% percent of the content without a guide.
What is sad though is that the large chunks of the map are, as you said, empty - it pains me so much. I've counted more than 30 new types of enemies, which is a crazy amount for a DLC and yet still not enough to fill up this space. Same goes for armor, weapons, spells. This really should have been "Elden Ring 2", if they took more time with it.
I think for me, the issue with the Shadow Keep was just the stress I felt of being able to potentially lock myself out of content.
As another comment pointed out though, That's apparently less of a danger than I thought when I was playing. FromSoftware has just trained me to be very cautious about missing out on stuff, so I guess that played into it.
Yeah, the emptyness is a real shame, especially when compared to the base game, where that definitely didn't feel like the case.
I honestly, think this should have just been scaled up to a sequel, and I would have gladly waited for it. Ah well...
I'm sorry, but I believe that the issue you have with the boss design ( especially with Rellana ) is due to a lack of knowledge on how to get more openings, rather than them being nearly non-existent. With Rellana, a lot of her moves can be jumped over. This allows you to come down with a jump attack. They made it so that the recovery of a jump attack could duck under a lot of bosses's followups. When the recovery is over, you have time to roll or jump the next attack that gets dished out.
Therefore it being safe to jump attack Rellana during a lot of her long combo strings, or even the last hits of her combos. You can also strafe quite a lot of her moves to make the openings you get longer. If you don't have to roll, you don't have to wait for your roll recovery to be over in order to get your attack in. A rolling light attack opening can be turned into a heavy attack opening that way. You even did such a strafe at 40:54. Why not mention it?
You can attack her during windups of delayed attacks as well. This adds at least 4 openings to the fight
And these three things make such a significant difference, that you can punish Rellana just as often as phase 2 Malenia.
Also you show Putrescent Knight when talking about infinite stamina etc. There are 15 attacks in his whole moveset, and 13 of which are punishable, often in multiple ways. What I said about Rellana applies here too. What is your issue with him exactly? I'm quite bewildered. He seems to me like a boss that you would enjoy. I have over 70 hours of experience challenge running that fight, with any build and with any restriction. It's my favorite boss in any game ever. Ask ahead
Also, bosses don't input your attacks outside of NPC's. Quite misleading to show Blackgoal Knight there.
Gaius and PCR don't have unavoidable attacks. I can provide sources of certain attacks being dodged if needed. There are so many false statements in this section it's insane.
This video is mired with so much misinformation it's actually crazy, love your comment.
@@HeyTarnished yeah its insane that people still actually think this way about the bosses
@@glisteninggames2981 Yeah lol, and the thing that kills me is the way they look back fondly upon the base game now, like they didn't loathe it & made 1000s of "critique" videos about it lol. Btw have you seen Gred Glintstones video about critique videos & how toxic they have become? It's sensational I swear to God, if you haven't, I implore you to watch it all, it's 2 hours long though.
@@HeyTarnished i didnt play ER or souls games at all when the apex of the discussion was going on, but im well aware of what happened. crazy to see this unfold with my very own eyes. now all of the sudden malenia was all good and fair? also yes I did watch Gred's video. its a great one. there are some things i disagree with, but overall his points are of extremely high quality. good to have some pushback to the endless stream of misleading of false statements
@@glisteninggames2981 Oh I didn't know you started playing these games well after ER's release, always nice to see a new fan that knows what he's talking about MORE than the older Souls fans, and yeah there were a couple of points I didn't fully agree with Gred, but man we sorely needed a video like that to combat this negative ragebait "look at me I critiqued a masterpiece & made it sound like a bad game" BS that UA-camr "critique" have been doing for so long now, and to combat misinformation too.
My experience was that it was a fun and challenging go through. Kinda wish sorceries had more toys (looking at the number of new incantations Vs sorceries), amulets or such, but what is there is servicable. Died around 120 times by the end (rune arc counter: had to do quite a few invasions to restock em.)
I definetly think the build point raises an interesting question though: Logically, and realistically, each build has pros and cons. Now, if a player chooses to for example forego all ranged attack options, they have created their own consequence/weakness for their own choice. Is it wrong for the game to take advantage of this? Clearly, you can still do it. Just you'll be having a rough time where skill needs to compensate for the choice born weakness. I personally feel it's alright for a game to come up to peoples faces now and then, and whisper: "You chose this weakness, and I will now end you for it." Yet clearly, many people do not like the fact their choices can have exploitable tactical consequences. It's an interesting one where certain players may feel uncomfortable for getting shown their choices in playstyle, while valid, do come with their own consequences. In a way, they are not kings of the sandbox immune to the rules at play there, but just wandering around in it subject to their choices coming with strenghts and weaknesses. Making thus sense to in a way demand at advanced difficulty tiers the player should really be considering what they are doing here in terms of loadout, build, and tactics.
I never quite thought of it like that, but I really like the way you tackled the whole build problem. I mean, technically you CAN have a hybrid build or ranged build, and the choosing not to have those options, is indeed player choice.
I think where I find issues with this is, is in the fact that this a DLC to a 200+ Hour RPG, where the base game didn't quite punish you for adding those weaknesses, as you aptly stated. As a player that made it through the entire base game without relying on magic or ranged options too much (I used Archery a bit, but not for bosses), I feel like the game just shifted for me.
I didn't mind the same restrictions in say, Lies of P, where the game is clearly communicating that it wants you to parry, and or use status effects or the game WILL be very hard, from the first boss.
In the future, I think your idea of "Difficulty options" based on build is not a bad one. Even in the character creator, a warning or description of "advanced" or something similar could clue players in to what they're in for.
@@hardreseto Agree with the fact the base game probably should have already done more of this. Though, it also kind of does. If you use only sorceries, you need to sometimes be cheeky with the toolkit factoring in cast times, distances, etc. Rock sling as opposed to comet type spells for Rellana is an easy, early on example of needing to adjust. Invasions also are an easy example of this in action. Ditto for a lot of sniper position enemies, and the likes. It's just not as common and can be more easily bypassed with skill as obstacles.
Another option for supplementary ranged attacks comes in the forms of items. Pots, darts, throwing knives, all the good stuff really. Doing any damage is better than no damage, and slow and steady wins the race in battles of endurance. Using spirit summons to keep a boss busy understanding how and what draws aggro is another thing to crack.
I think a lot of it does come to down to how it's all communicated. Even without difficulty options, the DLC coming with a clear and bold note saying it will demand a lot more from the player for them to make it though than the base game might have done the job.
I agree with a lot of the points made, but I think each person will have a different experience. I agree the map design is odd but I didn’t run into the problem of traversing Shadow Keep or having to come back to it multiple times. I was able to find my way through it to each boss and never really went back unless i wanted to
I think a lot of that comes down to the individual player. You are likely just better at navigating From Software worlds than I am. I also tend to want to do all questlines and do everything I can, and don't want to miss anything, so that might also color my opinion here.
Great video. I aggree with many points, specially the emptiness on the map. My overall opinion is that the whole of SOTE suffers from the issues that Malenia had back then. Too hard, too unfun, and too filled of corners to criticize the difficulty and justify the hate. When ER came out, everyone hated Malenia, there were people who said she even cheated, but as time went by and people were becoming better at fighting her they began to appreciate her and went from absolute bullshit boss to one of the most beloved, wich I think will be the case with SOTE as a whole. My belief is that as time goes by people will endup loving SOTE more.
Case in point, the lore. We all were dissapointed with the lack of GEQ content. But as time's gone by we all started to question, well, maybe we had evrrything we need to know about her since the beggining, and SOTE explains so much more of how the world works that, instead of telling you a story, it gives you the tools to finally have carve a stone to step on and be able to reach your own conclusions with good arguments and evidence.
Great video, again, wish you success.
Interesting about Malenia. I definitely heard that people disliked her, but I never quite found her to be an issue. In fact, much like Radahn in the base game, I was really hyped up for this hard battle, and then actually found it to be pretty easy.
I also loved Malenia as a boss, for the reasons I mentioned. I think there is a way to trivialize her as well, and that's just to over level yourself a bit. In SOTE, that's a lot harder to do because of the Scadutree Fragments, and the level caps that you've likely hit.
I think lore has definitely been a sore spot for me with From's games, and I preferred Sekiro for how it went for a more direct approach. I can totally see people piecing together more info, and I'm sure there will be a Vaatividya video or something that will make it all make sense.
Appreciate the kind words!
@@hardreseto yeah, SOTE's bosses are way tighter, I'm just trying my 2nd run against Rellana, and this time I'm finding a lot of small openings in between her combos that make the battle actually feel like a dance, using a light GS, it is an awesome feeling similar to fighting Malenia with Knife or Katana. I had a run at Malenia with daggers that took me a long time to master, you can take a look in my channel if you like!
And yeah, you were really spot on in saying that everyone's experience varied around the Scadutree fragments, also the ng cycle you're in has a lot of influence on how easy or hard the expansion was. Cheers!
Totally disagree an expansion is made to give more of the same, new of the same. Is like having hice cream and going for a second serving.
A sequel would have been what you expected, build upon the first one and surprise you.
I mean, I don't disagree on the sequel bit. I feel like SOTE is in this weird place between DLC and Sequel in terms of its ambition and size. That said, I feel like more of the same was the bare minimum. I felt like certain parts of SOTE were weaker than the base game IMO.
@@hardreseto but comparing sizes SOTE is a third of the base game. So for expansion is right on the money.
Could it be that maybe you expected a sequel?
@@hardreseto It's just an expansion, yours or others imaginations of it being a sequel is just untrue, and that is unfair criticism on SOTE, it's like saying Bloodborne Old Hunters should've been Bloodborne 2 because it is proportionately as big as SOTE for Elden Ring when compared against Bloodborne base game.
Although I didn't like the Story of the DLC, I just wished for more, I feel like the world is too vast and the devs are holding too much from us compared to their other games. But in total I love the DLC and base game, it wasn't too difficult at all gave us tons of new toys to play with, my overall experience is this is still one of Fromsoftwere best games, my second favorite after Bloodborne.
Well again, like for the many others who enjoyed the game, I'm glad for you. I think FromSoftware and Miyazaki agree with you on the scale of the world, and they've said as I mentioned in the video, that they want to do smaller games going forward. I'm all for that. Sekiro's my favorite FromSoftware game, with Elden Ring a close second and Bloodborne third.
My experience with shadow of the erdtree was nearly identical to my experience of the base game. Loved it at first, started to feel fatigued by around the midway point and was rather disappointed by the end. Though I've come to realize this has been my experience with pretty much every open world game ive ever played, this quantity over quality, copy paste design model really pulls me out of the game and makes the world feel incredibly artificial. And I find it to be such a backwards design philosophy, because I always felt the "promise" that open world games try make is an immersive experience, a fully realized world where you can go anywhere and do anything. But the corners that need to be cut in order to achieve that open structure (within reasonable budgets and deadlines) seem to actively contradict and hamper that goal. I just dont think this kind of design plays to fromsofts strengths, and I hope to see them return to their roots sooner rather than later, with tightly designed areas and encounters they used to be so well known for.
That is a very interesting take, and I can totally see where you're coming from.
For me the base game of Elden Ring never got to the point that SOTE did with fatigue and disappointment. That said, I generally am fine with open worlds and don't mind them as much. Elden Ring was a pretty great and solid example of an Open World game with a lot of From Software's design tricks. As you mentioned, some of the issues with Elden Ring and definitely SOTE are just inherent in open world games.
I suppose if you play a lot of those (I have) you get immune to some of those issues, and Elden Ring may feel like a breath of fresh air compared to most open world games on the market today.
That said, I think from Miyzaki's own comments that I mention at the end of the video, I think that's what we'll be getting in terms of scale. Smaller, tighter designed games, and hopefully with more risky and innovative design decisions!
@hardreseto yeah I guess elden ring just kind of reminded me why I've bounced off most open world games I've played in the past, but I think it speaks volumes to its quality that it was still able to hold my attention the whole way through anyways. While I did ultimately find it disappointing, it's undeniably a fantastic game.
Feeble kings follow up video to his first Elden ring sote video basically sums up most of what i don't like in shadow of the erdtree. Although his first shadow of the erdtree video was kind of bad. From software games are changing. Shadow of the erdtree feels so different from the base that i don't understand how people get the same mood from it. Overall i consider sote a necessary change and coffin to the 'souls series' as this was because the biggest developers of the souls series split of from the base to direct their own games Miyazaki said in an old fromsoftware interview that he doesn't want to be known as a celebrity and wants people to complement their games and not him. He also makes it clear that the souls games are a team effort and expression of creativity and there's designers who contribute to the games massive pieces of their souls and identity. something that would be undermined if he became the big celeb that he is today. He's a normal caring great guy. This does not mean that from software's loosing their soul but that new pieces of soul are coming in and that these games are changing. showing that from software even though how much the souls series sells value all their developers freedom of expression more than the money a new souls series game would bring. Also he said something about showing everyone the new fromsoftware in a recent pre-sote interview i think i don't remember.
I saw that video, and it had a lot of good points. I think you are right that From Software's games are changing. They always have and always will. My favorite game of theirs was Sekiro, which I think was pretty different from anything that they had released before.
I honestly really really liked the quote I shared near the end, where Miyazaki shared that he wanted to do smaller projects and have the younger talent in his studio direct and try new things. It makes me really excited for whatever FromSoftware does next.
Rellana is the worst boss in this series. She attacks faster than you can react. Malenia was the same, but at least there you could stun her by attacking. Rellana snaps through all shields.
That was definitely my experience fighting her as well. Wouldn't call her the worst boss, but yeah, felt really rough.
You bring up so many points in the video, not all of which I remember, but I'm pretty mixed in reference to all your issues. I think people are too acclimated to the base game and don't recognize issues the base game and the DLC share: overtuned difficulty (Malenia), poor progression, unsatisfying exploration (a lot of reused enemies and item pickups), and performance (especially on release). You mention all of these problems in the DLC but fail to recognize they exist in the base game, sometimes even worse. What I think it shocking is that people think Radahn is somehow harder than Malenia. The caliber of these bosses isn't even close. One has the most ridiculous attack From has ever designed (Waterfowl Dance) and the other has a dinky cross slash. How can you compare these two attacks? They're both unavoidable, yes, but one is vastly more manageable than the other. I think people need to do far more reflecting on what problems the base game and the DLC SHARE.
Great editing
Thank you! =D
Don't know man... After finishing it off with Radahn last night, the main game kinda feels like a early level part. I did not played elden ring since my first 300 hrs of it when it lunch and recently rexp every thing and further with the DLC. A lot of moments in there seems like a homage to previos souls game and to main elden ring. Some bs here and there but all souls have those moments. It's their biggest DLC, so I think the full out of prop hype plus a 2 year gap, made people expect a Elden ring 2: Marikas boogleloo, when all they did was watch the comunity, see what has been done and implement on it. The DLC takes all of elden ring and put into practice. Like Rellanas twin moon dodge, just jump MF. Use everything that is on dispose and implement your gameplay. That's just me tho
I think expectations were definitely high. That said, I actually didn't expect Elden Ring 2, though as I say in the video, I think given the ambition and size of the DLC, maybe shifting to Elden Ring 2 would've made more sense.
For me, I wanted a condensed, stronger form of the base game, without filler and really fun bosses. For a variety of reasons, I didn't get that (Whether it was because of my build, playstyle, what I had left over from the base game e.t.c.)
I’ve found that newer fans enjoyed it and older fans that had to wait for it, were more disappointed. My long time souls playing friends did not like the dlc and I only started playing the BASE GAME a week after the DLC dropped (I know, I REALLY missed out)
Hrm... That is interesting. Did you jump into the DLC as part of the base game experience? I confess I can't imagine how that would feel, but that's certainly a scenario that I hadn't considered.
@@hardreseto i had never played a souls game prior to elden ring. and i did not start playing it until around a week after the DLC dropped. so i worked through the main story and getting gud ya know, then once i became elden lord, i moved to the DLC and played through it. it's difficulty was SUPER hard for me on my first playthrough even having max scadu ( because i've since gotten better at the game and i was still learning). i had no complaints on the exploration, the loot, the progression or the lore. i have 6 separate friends who played elden ring at launch and waited for the DLC and 2 other friends who started on DS3, and every single one of them felt disappointed by the DLC for a variety of reasons and that simply was not my experience. it was like the magic of skyrim all over again and my life feels changed after experiencing everything The Lands Between has to offer multiple times over.
Yeah Elden Ring was my first fs game and I played all of them after. But I never hit that magical high point I did with Elden Ring
Lost me at boss design sorry.
I mean fair enough. Its totally fine to disagree with me or think what I'm saying is wrong. :)
I feel like people who disliked the expansion just have a problem where they raise their expectations so high they cant enjoy anything. They have like set ideas of what they want and if the game doesnt have everything they want they are dissappinted. Try expecting nothing and you will find it way more enjoyable, and life in general lol.
why enjoy something that is objectively worse than the base game more?
@JohnYannoulas Uh objectively worse? Do you even know what objective means? You're supposed to learn that in like elementary or middle school dude.
@@JohnYannoulasSouls redditors really have to stop using the word objective to inject subjective opinions
I mean, I did mention that in the video. It was just really hard to keep your expectations low after what From Software has delivered over the past decade AND the fact that Elden Ring was so superb.
I think failed is a strong word. Idk if I agree with that take. But I do think shadow of the erd tree was great but not the same level of excellence as the base game.
I think when I say failed, I mean specifically for a bunch of the player base that were expecting to be blown away. I don't think the game is a commercial or critical failure in any way. I think for me, as a player who expected something better than even the base game, I definitely felt let down, and I feel like that WAS what From Software was aiming for, to at least match the level of the base game.
@@hardreseto I understand fully! I’m in the mode of awaiting what their next project is! Also if you would consider doing a video on the subject of Miyazaki’s chosen new directors whom he worked with prior and groomed and personally selected for their roles as directors.
He mentioned he would not be overseeing their projects and let them basically run free. I’ve mentioned this only once before on another video but we are officially in the post Elden ring era which represents a new phase of games and new era of fromsoft ware with the understanding of their magnum opus success of Elden ring.
Now we don’t know what we may encounter moving forward because Miyazaki said the difficulty factor was more so his design philosophy. He mentioned he would not enforce that upon his directors and they all seen his design philosophy and understand the engine they use as well as will come with their own ideas and philosophies. I’m just deep in speculation and actually idealistic about the future!
@@silentobserver888 Yeah I think there's a ton to look at mine for the future of From Software. Takes me quite a bit to gather and research stuff, but I will definitely state that From Software is going to be a staple of coverage on this channel! :)
my ps4 crashes while trying to get bell bearings for my new character and my maxed character does fuck all damage so maybe ill watch this video later :(
Sorry to hear. I hadn't heard of performance issues on PS4. If you do get around to it, then I'd definitely like to hear your thoughts.
@@hardreseto i will eventually!
I'm gay and even I have to agree.
Not sure what your sexuality has to do with it, but... Okay haha.
My only issue is calling it dlc. Or an Expansion (wow, we're old...).
Just call it Elden Ring 2: Holy Boogaloo, you guys...
I think that's my issue with this DLC/Expansion. I honestly think I'd have rather waited a few more years and gotten an Elden Ring 2.
bosses were peak, open world was really lackluster
I found the bosses to be a bit of a letdown, but I agree with you on the open world.
@@hardreseto letdown compared to what?
Well, with ER Miyazaki wanted the whole world to play it as he made accessible game that sold, like, 20 million copies. Then he apparently decided the game is for niche players so he made the expansion with lots of artificial difficulty to make you feel frustrated. I completed the base game alright but gave up on the DLC because it got tedious. After killing Mohg and Radahn, I am one-shot by a... DOG. I get it, it's a shock value and all that, learning the environment and so on, but it's cheap. Like those cheap jump scares in horror films. So the way he achieved difficulty is really cheap and I gave up.
I get the feeling. There were actually points in the DLC were I did consider just dropping it. Luckily the new weapons and a few other things kept me going, but the difficulty did feel pretty rough.
@@hardreseto It's their iconic move, suddenly getting killed, but after killing demigods, getting one shot by a dog is just bizarre. Or lazy. I dunno. Or with the Divine Beast. I am not a very good player. I use summons. But by the time, I had summoned the mimic the Beast would close the gap and slam me into the wall and then I am left without health fighting a difficult boss AND the camera. That's not elegant design they always boast of.
@@dankokamcevski The bosses immediately rushing you WAS a huge issue. FromSoftware actually patched the game and so now multiple bosses actually give you time to summon your spirit ashes. I remember how frustrated I was with Bayle because I had to summon the Cooperator from inside the battle zone to complete his quest haha.
So yeah, you are totally right in that that was a huge oversight, and I mean, they fixed it, for what its worth (For I believe the Dancing Lion, Golden Hippo and a few others, including the final boss)
@@hardresetoThank you for your reply! I think From Soft is actually very real about their weaknesses whereas some of the fans are ready to excuse anything in the name of "skill issue".
You can equip the beast repellent torch to pacify dogs, they won’t attack you unless you do first
It's unbalanced, and scadutree fragments don't do anything to balance it. And it's incredibly boring and frustrating looking for them.
The gameplay has become unbalanced for magic builds, heavy armor builds, etc. The only way to survive is to do as much damage as possible and take as little damage as possible while moving lightning fast. So that means you are forced into a bleed build with medium light armor and using buffs and talismans to negate all damage.
The base game rewards you for exploration and playing the way you want.
This game punishes you for being yourself. That's not really bdsm anymore miyazaki, bdsm is consensual. So yeah its unbalanced, and it's frustrating because it has so much potential. And it's frustrating because they could easily tweak it to make it more balanced. But they refuse to do more with it.
Also the scadutree system was a bad idea, they already had a great leveling system, intuitive and rewarding and encouraged exploration in a natural way.
I believe you and I are in agreement with most things here. Unbalanced is a good way of looking at it. If only certain builds are viable or easy to go with, then the game just needed more balancing. Its also rough to see when the base game WAS pretty balanced.
I totally agree on the game punishing you for being yourself, or wanting to play in a certain way. Its unfortunate, but I think the leveling experiment with SOTE with the Scadutree fragments was I'd say a mistake in retrospect.
@@hardreseto yes totally agree. The base game let's you enjoy exploring and rewards you by leveling up your character and you are more free to play whatever way you want. If they wanted to make the bosses so fast and deliver so much damage then they should have allowed for magic builds to level up how fast they can cast magic, or maybe find new staffs that deals more magic damage and has faster casting, and special armor that protects levels up your damage negation considerably to be able to face off against the new bosses.
Healing should be faster aswell since the retaliation window is so much shorter now etc.
Yes the scadutree system is just no fun. It's frustrating having to look for them, tucked away in the most unexpected places, and so unfair that there's not an obundance of them, like the golden seeds so you have a chance to actually level up to max level.
The magic build becomes so high level with the scadutree that you breeze through the regular enemies (no challenge is no fun either) and then you hit a brick wall when you run into a tough boss that one shots you if uou make one little mistake in the middle of a lightning fast combo.
Yes compared to the base game shadow of the erdtree is just unbalanced, and it's a shame because it has so much potential. I just wanna keep playing because I love this world, but then you are reminded of its shortcomings when a boss depletes half your life bar with one hit, you're just left thinking, how am I going to learn the moveset when you don't give me a chance to learn. Yes you can frustratingly replay the boss 100 times and slowly learn each new move, making fewer mistakes each time, but that just feels like such an unpleasant grind. And then you have to go out and search for more scadutree fragments, more grinding.
I really wish it was more balanced and enjoyable. I don't think I'll play another From dlc, I'll look forward to the next main game, but I'll definitely think twice before buying another dlc to be honest.
this video seems to highlight your skill issues as difficulty... just saying..
I mean, that's a possibility. I won't claim to be SUPER good at these games, I'd even say I'm below average. That said, the skill issue didn't inhibit my enjoyment of Nioh, Nioh 2, The Dark Souls Trilogy, Bloodborne, Lies of P and my personal favorite From Software game, Sekiro. I STILL love Isshin as the best final boss I've ever faced, and spent quite a bit of time on him.
When I was fighting Radahan, I just felt.. empty and frustrated. Maybe its a skill issue, but I bet you there's a good chunk of players that probably felt the same way.
most people here have beaten these games one way or another, multiple times, and are voicing their contentions with the design.
If all you can do is boast about being a cumdumpster for whatever the developer wants to pump down your throat, sure you can do it, but screamming "skill issue" at a playerbase that's super familiar with the game ain't it, little guy.
Malenia doesn't have an instant kill move you've just never leveled your vigour high enough you fool!
I think certain players do get insta killed by said move. That said, I never had issues with Malenia like I said, and actually really like her as a boss. Its the DLC bosses that bug me haha.
@@hardreseto certain players have low vigor, any move is an insta kill with low enough vigor
Base game Elden Ring, compared to Sekiro, Bloodborne, and Dark Souls, is rather dull. It needed SoTE.
Strongly disagree there, Elden Ring was pure magic even before the DLC and its success shows it. The huge sprawling fantasy experience of the lands between was unlike anything. I honestly don’t think they will ever hit that high point again. I would argue if any of these games needed a DLC it was Bloodborne. I felt the base game was really short and pretty dull when it comes to bosses.
Gotta agree with @andrewramirez3998 here. I felt like the base game was one of the most impressive open world games I had ever played.
Your entire premise is wrong. The game has a 92% approval rating on Steam. What you're mistaken about is the initial release of the game. It was unbalanced initially. But within a few days of release From Soft had rebalanced the difficulty in the beginning. This DLC was amazing. I'd give it a 9.5/10. Better open world level design than the base game.
I mean I'm glad you liked the game and enjoyed. I did mention in the video that there ARE a good chunk of players that will enjoy it and why. I do recall there was a dip on Steam ratings at one point, but hey, its great that its doing well again. My disliking the DLC doesn't invalidate your liking of it here, so to each his own. :)
The whole thing about the bosses is just a laughable take
I'm sorry that's how you feel. I put a lot of thought into it, but hey, its fine if you disagree.
@@hardreseto with all due respect your thoughts makes no sense and you're just unwilling to put in the time and effort into learning these challenging bosses and just by how you put it you gave the impression that you also don't have the penitence for it as well
this is just wrong lol. SOTE is an expansion for everyone who likes elden ring. its literally just more elden ring. I completely fail to see how its different in any way from the main game in terms of core experience.
I mean, we can agree to disagree. I feel like I laid out my points in the almost hour long video, but if none of that works for you, fair enough.
It's trash bossfights. That's it, discussion over.
I mean, I agree that some of the boss fights suck, but I also think there's other issues. That said, boss fights are one of the big draws of FromSoftware games, so maybe that is where things end for a lot of people.
Dawg bayle was a two try ting lol
they fucked up the lore, I lost interest
How? The only thing that got retconned was Marika being from a pastoral village rather than being from one of the Eternal Cities.
No they didn’t u just rotted ur brain with memes about Miquella
I felt like the lore was significantly more interesting in the base game. So I don't blame you for losing interest here.
I think it has more to do with the fact that Miquella's big thing is just to repeat what Marika did, and then revive Radahn. Its pretty lukewarm compared to all the depth that the base game has.