One reason why people ignore these issues is because they don't believe in slippery slopes. They don't understand that mere beliefs have causality, and only pay attention to material ones. A slippery slope is the potential + the desire for something to happen. They acknowledge the potential, they just think "they would never do that."
@@mondopinion3777 Damn. This writing will help me make some people realize the importance of proper beliefs… Thank you very much senpai , wholly appreciated ❤️
Yes, I think part of that is because recognising the slippery slope involves making connections above the 'everyday' level of discourse and those connections involve a sort of leap of faith.
In SF the police stopped a driverless car for no headlights at night. There was no one to give a ticket to, and the car tried to escape. A no limits machine. A great metaphor to this discussion.
@@hkusno99 ??? Wonderful take, mate. The point is the failure of the cop to interface with the purely mechanical car with no driver is analogous to a conversation about technology running away from us/inability to interface/humans are less necessary. Your answer of “cop can shoot” and “much nothing” is the equivalent of saying “don’t want cereal spit in bowl” and “Big sad”. What on earth are you doing?
@@ronwood788 police can shoot the car = human can always destroy the technology we created, even autonomous machine go haywire with something unexpected. Much about nothing = In the end still Human vs human is scarier than human vs machine
It is daunting to watch how the 3 entities Paul references, the state, corporations, and the media tell us in unison what to think and who to blame for the Ukraine conflict. Every small town flies the Ukraine flag, every business announces their support for same. At the start of the conflict, Google even posted a box on their sign in page inviting us to donate to help Ukraine. Thank goodness for all those cell phones on the ground there, and the independent alternative journalists keeping us informed on what's really happening.
Great conversation! Love your important solution to the problem of our darkened, desperate times - “to help people understand true beauty, to tell better stories, make better images and be able to participate in the world through beauty, because it is not a small thing; it actually creates patterns for imitation for other people, it sends out ripples into the world when you participate in beauty.” I’m an elementary music teacher who likes to “share in the joy of discovering the world of Music and the World through music”, and I’m going to post your wonderful ode to beauty on my wall!
This was the most revelatory conversation I have heard about what is happening and how we need to respond. Thank You! This is fascinating, I became a conservative after becoming a Christian when I realized I was looking to the Government for what I should be looking to God for. Today is a scary time when Irobot and the Matrix are materializing
Just don't become an apolitical or conservative libertarian christian. The state as such is not inherently bad. Ultimately the state needs to be used. Others will use it.
Man trying to become god through technology is portrayed in CS Lewis' "Space" trilogy. Particularly the last book, "That Hideous Strength," describes what is currently happening in the world with technology and the disintegration of society. One of the most amazing things about the current situation is that those who are "woke" seem to view themselves as some kind of rebels when in truth they are ultra-conformist.
@@portlandpatriot7784 Different inner voice -- yes. My sister is like that; her favorite newscaster is Don Lemon. She is a highly intelligent, self-giving white woman who taught urban kids in KC. We were very close and used to have great conversations, but I came to a point that I did not know who she is, and I no longer know how to talk with her, even about grandkids and gardens. My heart is not willing, although I still love her. When I ask God, I feel the answer "Wait."
Wow, I think this talk was even better than their first... Which I thought was already most insightful. We had the pleasure of hosting Paul at Benburb Priory, where he spoke about some of these themes but Jonathan really teased the key points out of him and helped with some framing issues. Their shared emphasis on the paradox of maximum freedom and maximum control is very helpful. Pageau mentioned it in his discussion with James Lindsay and took it to another level here. We see this all around us. With Paul neatly summarising it, by describing the metaverse and how 'elites' sell their crappy little simulacrum of reality back to us after tearing apart real, embodied communities. I also love how they shilled for Wendell Berry, Ivan Illich, and Jacques Ellul. Each super necessary for us inhabitants of this online continent.
Two aspects of our last two years are most stunning…and frightening. First, how easily almost all of humanity could be moved to give up every aspect of life that affords meaning. Second, how easily and quickly one narrative can be disappeared and exchanged for another, with almost all of humanity making the switch as if the earlier narrative never existed. Overlaying this, society went from total fear of a non-event that threatened almost no one to total motivation to bring on an existential event that will destroy the world. In other words, we are already machines, responding to commands. Automatons. It isn’t the robot dog that is frightening. We are faced with robots occupying what we would have previously described as human beings.
@@younggrasshopper3531 there's a big one, from my perspective in Canada. Our deputy prime minister went from denouncing the v-mandate protesters as "white supremacist not-sees" one week, to waving the red and black flag of Ukrainian nationalists the following week.
With Covid, many people obediently yielded up their "normal" lives, but then in the quiet of their homes they were surprised to discover new ways of doing and being which are just as meaningful, or more so. For those who love God, all things work for the good.
Now that Jonathan and Brett have spoken I’d like to see a Kingsnorth and Weinstein discussion as well. Orthodox thinkers going to start knocking Brett’s sandals off and I mean that in this best way possible.
Fantastic conversation as per usual, I agree and resonate with the sensing that something is being born around us and feeling the unease. Uberboyo's conception of "Mechina" is something worth paying attention to here, the female android spider enticing the masses through promises of utopia and eternal life for the users of the web she is spinning for everyone. It's powerful and has emerged in my life synchronously as I've engaged with natural symbolism more seriously after discovering you Joanthan. Be well everyone. Get in the garden and plant something beautiful
Great point, Mechina came to mind immediately for me as well. It's surreal how all these loosely connected narratives are converging onto one point, symbolism happens. The fact that technology has a will is the kicker for me, it is possessed by a spiritual being that is seeking physical manifestation through us. I find it hard contemplating this battle for our souls, only to then realise the next best thing to do is probably to get up and brush my teeth.
The perennial and eternal patterns put forth in The Revelation seem to always have profundity. Thank you for bringing us along with your journey and allowing the church doors to stay wide open even as a flood begins.
Hearing all the madness we’ve been going through be clarified to some degree is so helpful to me. Puts some kind of order to the whole mess. It’s so easy to get caught up and get frustrated and just spin in circles. This is a kind of anchor.
Tocqueville discussed this in Democracy in America. The American has the most freedom possible, and yet a society of atomized individuals gives into mass thinking. In wanting to become as free as possible, you end having to submit to the tyranny of the mass.
51:47 Social distancing in the Malay language is “penjarakan sosial”. “Jarak” (noun) means gap or to distance. “Pen-jarak-an” (adj.), means to make a gap or distance. “Penjara” (root) means jail, prison or to confine. “Penjara-kan” (verb) means to jail, imprison or to confine a thing. When spoken, people can hear the difference. But on print, “penjarakan sosial” can be read as “social or societal imprisonment”. The beauty of this phrase in the Malay language works on 2 levels: (1) the mass social control by the outside systems and (2) the societal control of by the actors from within.
Paul Kingsnorth has become the indispensable thinker in these times. He and I have very different political and perhaps ideological origins but are very nearly in complete agreement in these confusing times. Brilliant writer and a great interview.
I appreciate this information about these confusing times. Being old enough to have participated in a charismatic renewal and intentional community in the 1960-1970’s and the optimism of that era, my retirement village is now my community. However, I still have family facing the perils of the culture wars ahead. The inspiration that you spark in me is to make even these later years memorable and I hope to be a helpful influence on my church family too. Looking forward to your project. We can all do with more beauty in our world. Meanwhile Jonathon, I have my framed print of Archangel Michael watching over me.
I really enjoyed this conversation, thank you. At 54:12 Jonathan, you mention the latest Matrix movie and says Trinity takes over from Neo and becomes the man in the relationship. I'd like to ask you to consider an alternative take on this from a 6 hour breakdown of the movie where Mark Passio from What on earth is happening describes the flying scene in the following way: He says, It's a perfect allegory. Trinity - represents the Sacred feminine / True care Neo - represents Right Action in the world When Trinity is able to fly and support Neo, it's a perfect allegory. Trininty supporting Neo represents the sacred feminine of emotion and true care for the truth and justice in our world. True care has to support our actions when we start doing things in the world to try to make it better. Love has to be the substrate, the stratum, the foundation, the building blocks of what we put our will on top of. It has to be what supports our right action. True care has to support our right action. The sacred feminine supporting the sacred masculine from falling. ua-cam.com/video/jqGynpFIE5Y/v-deo.html 2:30 - Can they make the jump?
sidepoint: alchemy is in the root of transhumanism, becoming machines, wish for eternal life ( for those who dont believe in God ) that leads to hell society total sur vailance
The ending of this so true. Thanks Paul. Our way will involve renunciation because it always has. Cruciform living always leads to life. Read any of St. Paul. Blessings to you both for conducting this wonderful talk.
When Janice told Chandler - you want me , you need me you just don’t KNOW you do ( paraphrased) I can’t help but think of humans and their cry for God. Thanks for your work both of you from a convert to orthodoxy 22 years ago this pascha. I’m also a GP over 30 years and the machine is relentless in my world all the way over here in Straya . Seems to me the cunning one who twists and squirms and distorts via the digital medium is profoundly distorting truth and penetrating culture reaching everyone and beginning with the little ones. Keep up the good work brothers and stand fast in our triune god and have a holy and focussed and victorious Holy Week
Glad to have the opportunity to listen to these two important thinkers at this critical time. The discussion about the Mennonites and their views on technology is interesting. I am starting to believe that their way of life is more appealing than the alternatives offered by the technocrats like Dr Schwab. Let us be thankful that technology can be put to good use. This conversation is an example of that.
Love this amazingly insightful idea about Saul and how king David. The machine doesn’t know “us”… all it has a reductive code of what it recognizes. Its algorithms can’t see or attack us if we don’t present as what it thinks we are. It learns quickly though, so We have to be shifty to stay ahead of its ability to see us. If you have time the book “seeing like a State” is a wealth of understanding about technocratic systems and their limitations.
Brillliant to have you both in conversation. My suggestion for humanity?....Lose our fear of death..... The implications of this change are all encompassingly massive, but our 'survival at all costs' ancient strategy for life has clearly reached the end of its use.
Paul Kingsnorth may have come from the political left, but his Christian conversion has tempered him into the most conservative speaker I've heard in a long time. Paul is way more conservative than any contemporary politician who identifies as conservative.
If nothing else, this conversation proves "we" are not alone. We merely need to find and connect with each other. I've been subscribed to The Abbey of Misrule for a while. I shall have to pay better attention to Paul's articles, or at the very least, devote time to reading them more thoughtfully. On the subject of churches, I was a lifetime Anglican prior to Covid. I am no longer an Anglican since they imposed vaccine passports and encouraged priests to take part in essentially government vaccine propaganda photo ops as part of their "Theology of Love". I currently have a dedicated prayer station with icons and incense where I do my daily offices (poorly, of course... I am a protestant). My grandmother was Bulgarian orthodox. Thank God for that blood in my veins. Your conversation was nourishing. Thank you.
A couple months ago I read Alex Jones’s recent book “The Great Reset and the War for the World.” I never thought I’d be taking a book by Jones seriously, but it was crazy to see just how much the technocrats’ plan is in plain sight. Paul and Jonathan were saying some of the exact same things in this conversation, and looking at Lewis’s That Hideous Strength and Huxley’s Brave New World, I see that this has been in the works for a long time.
This outlined so much of what I've thought about our political and cultural climate. The talk about how the WEF and our government isn't even hiding their intentions resonated so much with me. I had the exact same views towards the vaccine too. Couldn't care less about the science behind it, the whole point was being sick and tired of being coerced by government and media fear mongering.
Man, what he was saying from 29-31 minutes about how the Left now supports Big Tech, Big Pharma resonated so much with me. That's been distressing me for at least a year. Wow, everything about this conversation is resonating. I'll have to listen to their original talk soon.
"An old god buried in the ground" you say? .... "Now whether by accident or by fate they chanted this sleeping titan’s name and ‘it' awoke. We knew not what we did."
Carl Schmitt - Friend enemy distinction is the in and out group that is just a function of the human condition. The terms and conditions to which people make that distinction may change over time but it remains regardless. It's an uncomfortable truth of society but it remains in the background of all interactions nonetheless. The transition that people are witnessing from what the old left used to be about (the animosity and skepticism of the state) versus this radical shift to authoritarianism is a tale as old as time. The seduction of power and dominance is within everyone and for some its too great a thirst for them to remained consistent. Many on the left have not indulged in this seduction but sadly others have succumbed. Some may say they were never really on the left they were just waiting to get power and now that they have it they don't want to let it go, and for many that is the case, but the thirst of power changes a lot of people that some really don't like to acknowledge because it offends their sensibilities to confront the reality that they can be just as vulnerable to the idea of dominance than those they purport to be protecting from dominance.
1:06:20 the original script of the matrix said that humans were harvested for processing power, meaning they were using a part of their brains to do math, just like how we use processors in our computers.
@@chrisdeffx6548 they decided to go for the battery idea because it was thought that most of the audience would know what a battery is but not what a processor is.
I believe what you should focus on is the Industrial Revolution. This is when personal identity started to really not matter. Authorities lost the ability to control ideology but gained far more reliable material means of control. And the interdependence of an industrial system combined with improvements in transportation and communication allow for more centralization. The advent of the musket temporarily slowed centralization because the masses were needed for military service. However, with the advent of computer technology and specialist militaries, masses are no longer needed. What is needed is to maintain ideological division among the masses while maintaining a dependence on industrial products. The products form the basis of order, that is people are incentivized to contribute to the order by the prospect of acquiring material goods of a kind which would be impossible without the industrial order. Gandhi understood this all too well. But in Gandhi we also see the weakness of the order. If spiritual considerations rise above material considerations, the order cannot function. Though it has the military power to punish any resistance, it also depends upon mass voluntary compliance to maintain its resources. Any moral considerations are dangerous to it. This I believe is the reason for the rise of moral relativism and postmodernism. Remember that “Great Thinkers” are chosen by professors. Professors are paid by the government or the aristocracy. Hence the aristocracy ultimately decides what thinkers are great and whose ideas ought to be popularized. Negating morals and religion is conducive to industry. I suspect this is also why Protestantism is so popular in industrial countries. It’s inherent inability to organize and maintain cohesion makes it less of a threat while it’s focused on obedience and passivity are helpful in preventing crime. Of course the fact is that human beings can’t really be amoral. You can negate thier moral guidance but they will always have values, and few are willing to put material welfare at the top of thier value chain. They will hold material welfare as a necessity to achieving higher goals, but never as the main focus of thier lives. Hence the industrial order cannot hope to maintain itself indefinitely. Communication technology has allowed people with simmilar value chains to coordinate. It has not reached the level of organization yet, they cannot produce leaders. This I believe is the importance of the church. Most moral systems do not produce leaders. The church produces hierarchy by its very nature. That’s us why it will always triumph. It’s moral code is correct and it produces organization and leaders. The difficulty is in propagating its views. Not only do we need the technology but also the gift of teaching which only comes from the Holy Spirit. Further we need monks and nuns. Those are the kinds of people that bring converts by the masses. American monks with UA-cam channels. That’s the ticket. Monks putting out relationship advice on tiktok. People naturally gravitate to ascetics. They sense that this is the sort of person who has answers, someone who is free from material concerns. Every person I meet, thier first accusation against the church is that it collects money. A monk living in poverty, that’s the kind of spiritual leader they will listen to. Women particularly are persuaded by ascetics, and in a material culture women have inordinate power as consumers. Monks and nuns with the gift of teaching giving out relationship advice and offering counseling through social media. That’s exactly what we need. And it’s just what we don’t have. People want liberation from their work and sex lives. They know it isn’t working but our society offers no way out. The ascetic life is so necessary, I cannot stress this enough. People know they are enslaved but they won’t listen to anyone who seems equally enslaved. Only one who maintains an ascetic life can teach them. They want an outsiders perspective but they can’t find any outsiders. Everyone seems to be part of the industrial order. I suspect they listen to scientists, imagining that science puts one outride the order. I say this because if I mention to anyone that most of a scientists time is spent raising money for his experiments, that He is monetarily incentivized to lie, that He has a wife and children He needs to provide for and has no choice but to yield to His economic needs, they become angry and feel that I shouldn’t insult science so.
@Jonathan Pageau I don't know if you've read the book, "American Gods", by Neil Gaiman, but it's really good, along the lines of "attention = gods". (I don't recommend the show of the same name.)
The Rod Dreher Option is for the privileged..what of millions of our christian brothers working living in cities without options , our help must be in the Lord wherever you may be.
~ Dream Simulator ~ As somebody who has a VR headset ( HTC Vive ) & has been having crazy amounts of fun with what essentially feels like tech demo versions of games, just the raw reality of forgetting I'm in my room ( I've almost broken things, and myself ), & the fact that I can use Google earth VR to physical move around the earth in a way that's better than any drone to scope out spots where I want to prospect for gold mining.. Essentially what it feels like is a dream simulator. If you can lucid dream, anything you could've ever thought of doing will probably be in VR one day. "Faith is what you make it" - OutKast
I completely agree with both insights.I think the Kain story rules, so the solution is simple. We have to pretend, than go the other way around and rely on the old ways based on proper doctrine. We have to be radical in revealing the contra-diction.Maybe because i am from Holland(zwarte Piet=Black Jack)but we as peaople have no control over our institutes wich lacks moral authority.
Jonathan, have you read Charles Upton's book 'Vectors of the Counter-Initiation - the Course and Destiny of Inverted Spirituality'? I think you would find it very interesting. It would be amazing if you would interview him while he is still alive.
When he speaks about the breaking of all the limits, and old restrictions etc. as a purpose in itself around 1:03:40 I imediatly thought about Foucault's point in that famous Chomsky-Foucault debate.
Renunciation, not being respectable, limits…….and the killing machine. Roberto Rossellini’s movie, The Flowers of Saint Francis, nails it. I wonder about martyrdom.
50:55 "the only thing left is the will to power"... "For the Kingdom of God is NOT in the word but in Power" 1 Corinthians 4:20 it uses the greek δυνάμει "dynamei"= force, power, "dynamic", potency
Wow, if Tolkien were alive, and watched this video, he might be inspired to finish the sequel to The Lord of the Rings. Jon and Paul can "smell the old evil".
The increasing difficulty in talking across the spectrum is a good starting point. Can we all at least acknowledge that the intolerance is primarily sourced from a specific group who claim to be "open-minded"?
Just a minor note -- at 17:00 Jonathan speaks of the groups in which the individual is embedded (family, church, community, nation) and never mentions schools. This is a significant omission, because it is the business of the schools to embed us, and we spend our formative years being programmed by them.
Dr. Anthony Esolen has an interesting lecture that’s posted on UA-cam where he discusses the Boethius Option in addition to the Benedict. It’s worth considering for those who have any capacity to effect change-even if it’s “futile”, there are spiritual fruits in putting oneself in the firing line, so to speak. I could never criticize someone for choosing the Benedict or Anthony options, however. All of the options are perhaps necessary for folks, each according to his station in life.
Draw closer to Christ. He is victorious over His enemies and will make everything right in the end for those who love Him. I say that just as much as a reminder to myself. We won’t be able to make it through without holding tight to the source of all Life.
“Ecological background of disintegration” 23:15 This is profound, that our structures, societies, economies and ecology are all being warped at Babylon level proportions certainly needs more attention.
What if we (as a individual) should invest 1 cent and bring the order in circulation they are nowhere to be found in these ones and zero's. This means practical perception and will unite in the one thing :The bill!. We are not used to bring opposition and we have to learn this quickly. When the temperature rises ,condemned atoms we are (im protestant) ,Euphoria will rises in us. Stay clean. Thanks to you gentlemen we will ignite better sooner because we are to late(heaven composes, men disposes)
2 guys exploring the fringes of their knowledge to try and further what they already know 💜 rather than trying to hammer home some point to convince the other or himself.
Has Pageau ever mentioned any new icon movements like Nowa Ikona? The icons painted by Danylo Movchan and Ivanka Demchuk really speak to me and I wonder whether or not the EO Church has guidelines on whether icons like those are ok or not.
From what I understand regarding the first Matrix, originally the humans were being used because the machines needed their brains' processing power. The studio didn't think audiences would understand that, so it was changed to batteries.
One thing I find deeply concerning about the metaverse and similar technologies is that they're advancing to an extraordinary level the replacement of the given world and its order with the world of artifact. Erazim Kohák wrote a great book in the 1980s that talked about the need to "bracket" artifacts if we are ever to recover a sense that creation has a moral order. Submerge yourself entirely in artifact, and your world is not just experientially poorer; you have cut yourself off from the Spirit of God, from authentic meaning, or anything truly larger than yourself. It's already hard to escape the excesses of techne; but how much worse will it be for the unformed minds who will know nothing other than a world that perfectly reflects their own whims and desires?
this is why the Death of God happened after the industrial Revolution and it has become increasingly easier to not believe in God over time. If you see everything you need coming from man and his systems, God becomes a distant abstract concept of little to no experiential meaning.
46:48 Perhaps the left’s ideals never were the goal but a means. As long as the structure had the left in the margins, the left favoured the margins. Now that power is more tilted towards the left, the true goal emerges which is just power. The left is aimed at power, and the proposed ideals are just means to crowbar their way towards acquiring it. Not mysterious at all really😊
Leftism is a values system. The strategy to appeal to the weak to the underrepresented to the poor, was just a strategy to gain power and impose their values. Their values is antichristianity, like homosexuality, sodomy, human sacrifice, slavery, racism, war,...thats why now their true nature is showing and they dont care to appeal to their former narrative..your observation is correct but you must address why they want the power for...the power is to impose its values on society to destroy Christianity, as they did in formerly Christian Europe...this is called The Great Work
Now more than ever we need to form strong bonds with flesh and blood people that we can touch and interact with and interact more with… meditate upon the scriptures which are wholly trustworthy.
One reason why people ignore these issues is because they don't believe in slippery slopes. They don't understand that mere beliefs have causality, and only pay attention to material ones. A slippery slope is the potential + the desire for something to happen. They acknowledge the potential, they just think "they would never do that."
Good point. Beliefs have causality because what we call "consciousness" is actually INTENT. It is inherently directional, like Story is.
@@mondopinion3777 Damn. This writing will help me make some people realize the importance of proper beliefs…
Thank you very much senpai , wholly appreciated ❤️
Law of attraction?...;) But seriously, the good esoteric teachings (like Abraham Hicks f.e.) align quite well with Christianity.
Yes, I think part of that is because recognising the slippery slope involves making connections above the 'everyday' level of discourse and those connections involve a sort of leap of faith.
Very true Brad. I often thought that slippery slope was just old people over reacting. Now I'm like oh no, they were very much appropriately reacting.
Delighted to see Paul back on your show. He’s an important thinker for these troubled times.
In SF the police stopped a driverless car for no headlights at night. There was no one to give a ticket to, and the car tried to escape. A no limits machine. A great metaphor to this discussion.
That's unsettling. Imagine being that cop and watching that car just drive away.
Well, police can always shoot at the car if they want to get some reaction. Much to do about nothing this discussion is
@@hkusno99 You appear to be asleep the last 20 years.
Consider awakening. Or not.
ua-cam.com/video/Fvr-uYliHUg/v-deo.html
Deus Vult
@@hkusno99 ??? Wonderful take, mate. The point is the failure of the cop to interface with the purely mechanical car with no driver is analogous to a conversation about technology running away from us/inability to interface/humans are less necessary. Your answer of “cop can shoot” and “much nothing” is the equivalent of saying “don’t want cereal spit in bowl” and “Big sad”. What on earth are you doing?
@@ronwood788 police can shoot the car = human can always destroy the technology we created, even autonomous machine go haywire with something unexpected. Much about nothing = In the end still Human vs human is scarier than human vs machine
It is daunting to watch how the 3 entities Paul references, the state, corporations, and the media tell us in unison what to think and who to blame for the Ukraine conflict. Every small town flies the Ukraine flag, every business announces their support for same. At the start of the conflict, Google even posted a box on their sign in page inviting us to donate to help Ukraine.
Thank goodness for all those cell phones on the ground there, and the independent alternative journalists keeping us informed on what's really happening.
Great conversation! Love your important solution to the problem of our darkened, desperate times - “to help people understand true beauty, to tell better stories, make better images and be able to participate in the world through beauty, because it is not a small thing; it actually creates patterns for imitation for other people, it sends out ripples into the world when you participate in beauty.” I’m an elementary music teacher who likes to “share in the joy of discovering the world of Music and the World through music”, and I’m going to post your wonderful ode to beauty on my wall!
Love this 💙
I'm a musician. Ms Cadd, my elementary music teacher , and Ms Solberg had a huge influence on me. I can still see their faces. What...40 years ago?
This was the most revelatory conversation I have heard about what is happening and how we need to respond. Thank You! This is fascinating, I became a conservative after becoming a Christian when I realized I was looking to the Government for what I should be looking to God for. Today is a scary time when Irobot and the Matrix are materializing
Government or God? That’s an absurd conclusion.
Just don't become an apolitical or conservative libertarian christian. The state as such is not inherently bad. Ultimately the state needs to be used. Others will use it.
In the world (cosmos) but not of it.
Man trying to become god through technology is portrayed in CS Lewis' "Space" trilogy. Particularly the last book, "That Hideous Strength," describes what is currently happening in the world with technology and the disintegration of society. One of the most amazing things about the current situation is that those who are "woke" seem to view themselves as some kind of rebels when in truth they are ultra-conformist.
This.
Insightful comment -- maybe an example of the inversions Jonathan talks about.
I tried to explain that to one of them. It didn't get through. They can't see. Absolutely programmed. Manic.
Different inner voice.
@@portlandpatriot7784 Different inner voice -- yes. My sister is like that; her favorite newscaster is Don Lemon. She is a highly intelligent, self-giving white woman who taught urban kids in KC. We were very close and used to have great conversations, but I came to a point that I did not know who she is, and I no longer know how to talk with her, even about grandkids and gardens. My heart is not willing, although I still love her. When I ask God, I feel the answer "Wait."
Ive been thinking about that a lot since I read the space trilogy. "That Hideous Strength" points at our current problem SO well.
Wow, I think this talk was even better than their first... Which I thought was already most insightful. We had the pleasure of hosting Paul at Benburb Priory, where he spoke about some of these themes but Jonathan really teased the key points out of him and helped with some framing issues.
Their shared emphasis on the paradox of maximum freedom and maximum control is very helpful. Pageau mentioned it in his discussion with James Lindsay and took it to another level here. We see this all around us. With Paul neatly summarising it, by describing the metaverse and how 'elites' sell their crappy little simulacrum of reality back to us after tearing apart real, embodied communities.
I also love how they shilled for Wendell Berry, Ivan Illich, and Jacques Ellul. Each super necessary for us inhabitants of this online continent.
Ivan Illich's "Medical Nemesis" is very salient to the current time, also his "Gender".
You should check out Patrick DeNeen's lecture "the end of liberalism" on Benson Center youtube channel.
Thanks for writing the names down. Quite fascinating individuals at first glance.
Everyone needs to like and comment to launch this into the algorithms!
Two aspects of our last two years are most stunning…and frightening. First, how easily almost all of humanity could be moved to give up every aspect of life that affords meaning. Second, how easily and quickly one narrative can be disappeared and exchanged for another, with almost all of humanity making the switch as if the earlier narrative never existed.
Overlaying this, society went from total fear of a non-event that threatened almost no one to total motivation to bring on an existential event that will destroy the world.
In other words, we are already machines, responding to commands. Automatons. It isn’t the robot dog that is frightening. We are faced with robots occupying what we would have previously described as human beings.
What narrative switch do you mean?
Yes there is an important aspect of our nature being exposed. Have you read Rene Girard?
@@younggrasshopper3531 there's a big one, from my perspective in Canada. Our deputy prime minister went from denouncing the v-mandate protesters as "white supremacist not-sees" one week, to waving the red and black flag of Ukrainian nationalists the following week.
With Covid, many people obediently yielded up their "normal" lives, but then in the quiet of their homes they were surprised to discover new ways of doing and being which are just as meaningful, or more so. For those who love God, all things work for the good.
Now that Jonathan and Brett have spoken I’d like to see a Kingsnorth and Weinstein discussion as well. Orthodox thinkers going to start knocking Brett’s sandals off and I mean that in this best way possible.
Fantastic conversation as per usual, I agree and resonate with the sensing that something is being born around us and feeling the unease. Uberboyo's conception of "Mechina" is something worth paying attention to here, the female android spider enticing the masses through promises of utopia and eternal life for the users of the web she is spinning for everyone. It's powerful and has emerged in my life synchronously as I've engaged with natural symbolism more seriously after discovering you Joanthan.
Be well everyone. Get in the garden and plant something beautiful
Great point, Mechina came to mind immediately for me as well. It's surreal how all these loosely connected narratives are converging onto one point, symbolism happens. The fact that technology has a will is the kicker for me, it is possessed by a spiritual being that is seeking physical manifestation through us. I find it hard contemplating this battle for our souls, only to then realise the next best thing to do is probably to get up and brush my teeth.
The perennial and eternal patterns put forth in The Revelation seem to always have profundity.
Thank you for bringing us along with your journey and allowing the church doors to stay wide open even as a flood begins.
Hearing all the madness we’ve been going through be clarified to some degree is so helpful to me. Puts some kind of order to the whole mess. It’s so easy to get caught up and get frustrated and just spin in circles. This is a kind of anchor.
Tocqueville discussed this in Democracy in America. The American has the most freedom possible, and yet a society of atomized individuals gives into mass thinking. In wanting to become as free as possible, you end having to submit to the tyranny of the mass.
I don't know why, but I love Paul's door. It is so imperfect and human.
51:47 Social distancing in the Malay language is “penjarakan sosial”.
“Jarak” (noun) means gap or to distance.
“Pen-jarak-an” (adj.), means to make a gap or distance.
“Penjara” (root) means jail, prison or to confine.
“Penjara-kan” (verb) means to jail, imprison or to confine a thing.
When spoken, people can hear the difference. But on print, “penjarakan sosial” can be read as “social or societal imprisonment”.
The beauty of this phrase in the Malay language works on 2 levels: (1) the mass social control by the outside systems and (2) the societal control of by the actors from within.
Paul Kingsnorth has become the indispensable thinker in these times. He and I have very different political and perhaps ideological origins but are very nearly in complete agreement in these confusing times. Brilliant writer and a great interview.
"Anarcho-Tyranny" is a very useful concept that Samuel Francis coined in the 90s
Much as I don't care about the 'technology bad' sentiment, this was a very enlightening video
This was a really helpful episode. Definitely helps me feel more sane!
May God have mercy on all of us.
I’m smiling at the thought of Jonathan hangin out with the truckers hehe
Love your conversations with Paul Kingsnorth
I appreciate this information about these confusing times. Being old enough to have participated in a charismatic renewal and intentional community in the 1960-1970’s and the optimism of that era, my retirement village is now my community. However, I still have family facing the perils of the culture wars ahead. The inspiration that you spark in me is to make even these later years memorable and I hope to be a helpful influence on my church family too. Looking forward to your project. We can all do with more beauty in our world. Meanwhile Jonathon, I have my framed print of Archangel Michael watching over me.
I really enjoyed this conversation, thank you. At 54:12 Jonathan, you mention the latest Matrix movie and says Trinity takes over from Neo and becomes the man in the relationship. I'd like to ask you to consider an alternative take on this from a 6 hour breakdown of the movie where Mark Passio from What on earth is happening describes the flying scene in the following way:
He says, It's a perfect allegory.
Trinity - represents the Sacred feminine / True care
Neo - represents Right Action in the world
When Trinity is able to fly and support Neo, it's a perfect allegory.
Trininty supporting Neo represents the sacred feminine of emotion and true care for the truth and justice in our world.
True care has to support our actions when we start doing things in the world to try to make it better.
Love has to be the substrate, the stratum, the foundation, the building blocks of what we put our will on top of.
It has to be what supports our right action. True care has to support our right action. The sacred feminine supporting the sacred masculine from falling.
ua-cam.com/video/jqGynpFIE5Y/v-deo.html
2:30 - Can they make the jump?
sidepoint: alchemy is in the root of transhumanism, becoming machines, wish for eternal life ( for those who dont believe in God ) that leads to hell society total sur vailance
Great convo guys. Keep 'em coming Jonathan
Thank you for bringing this up. 🙏
The ending of this so true. Thanks Paul. Our way will involve renunciation because it always has. Cruciform living always leads to life. Read any of St. Paul. Blessings to you both for conducting this wonderful talk.
This was great, love both of your perspectives
When Janice told Chandler - you want me , you need me you just don’t KNOW you do ( paraphrased) I can’t help but think of humans and their cry for God.
Thanks for your work both of you from a convert to orthodoxy 22 years ago this pascha. I’m also a GP over 30 years and the machine is relentless in my world all the way over here in Straya .
Seems to me the cunning one who twists and squirms and distorts via the digital medium is profoundly distorting truth and penetrating culture reaching everyone and beginning with the little ones.
Keep up the good work brothers and stand fast in our triune god and have a holy and focussed and victorious Holy Week
Glad to have the opportunity to listen to these two important thinkers at this critical time.
The discussion about the Mennonites and their views on technology is interesting. I am starting to believe that their way of life is more appealing than the alternatives offered by the technocrats like Dr Schwab.
Let us be thankful that technology can be put to good use. This conversation is an example of that.
Love this amazingly insightful idea about Saul and how king David. The machine doesn’t know “us”… all it has a reductive code of what it recognizes. Its algorithms can’t see or attack us if we don’t present as what it thinks we are. It learns quickly though, so We have to be shifty to stay ahead of its ability to see us. If you have time the book “seeing like a State” is a wealth of understanding about technocratic systems and their limitations.
Very much looking forward to listening to this.
Such a great conversation. When they broke down taking away real world human things, creating a virtual option to fill that void & sell it back to us.
The intro music is perfect for the mood.
I thought so too. And it's my favourite version
1:06 the harvesting of our intelligence and the making of a god. Phenomenal take Johnathan Pageau
Brillliant to have you both in conversation.
My suggestion for humanity?....Lose our fear of death.....
The implications of this change are all encompassingly massive, but our 'survival at all costs' ancient strategy for life has clearly reached the end of its use.
Death hasn't been defeated for your average atheist/materialist.
A real conversation, thank you 🙏🏻
Wonderful talk gentlemen. I've listened to it three times....❤
Thankyou.
Perhaps time for a another discussion?
Paul wonerfully expresses intelligence, humor and humility!
Jaques Ellul has been immensely helpful to me. Read "The Meaning of the City."
Great conversation and insights on the situation! Thanks guys!
Paul Kingsnorth may have come from the political left, but his Christian conversion has tempered him into the most conservative speaker I've heard in a long time. Paul is way more conservative than any contemporary politician who identifies as conservative.
If nothing else, this conversation proves "we" are not alone. We merely need to find and connect with each other. I've been subscribed to The Abbey of Misrule for a while. I shall have to pay better attention to Paul's articles, or at the very least, devote time to reading them more thoughtfully. On the subject of churches, I was a lifetime Anglican prior to Covid. I am no longer an Anglican since they imposed vaccine passports and encouraged priests to take part in essentially government vaccine propaganda photo ops as part of their "Theology of Love". I currently have a dedicated prayer station with icons and incense where I do my daily offices (poorly, of course... I am a protestant). My grandmother was Bulgarian orthodox. Thank God for that blood in my veins. Your conversation was nourishing. Thank you.
Thank you for this conversation! May this island of sanity nurture those drowning in the sea of absurdity out there.
Superb analysis of what is happening in the world by two outstanding talents. Best wishes for your collaboration.
wow what a really good discussion, thanks for putting this out there
A couple months ago I read Alex Jones’s recent book “The Great Reset and the War for the World.” I never thought I’d be taking a book by Jones seriously, but it was crazy to see just how much the technocrats’ plan is in plain sight. Paul and Jonathan were saying some of the exact same things in this conversation, and looking at Lewis’s That Hideous Strength and Huxley’s Brave New World, I see that this has been in the works for a long time.
This outlined so much of what I've thought about our political and cultural climate. The talk about how the WEF and our government isn't even hiding their intentions resonated so much with me. I had the exact same views towards the vaccine too. Couldn't care less about the science behind it, the whole point was being sick and tired of being coerced by government and media fear mongering.
Yes! So happy to see this : )
Man, what he was saying from 29-31 minutes about how the Left now supports Big Tech, Big Pharma resonated so much with me. That's been distressing me for at least a year. Wow, everything about this conversation is resonating. I'll have to listen to their original talk soon.
Two of the best ot there. Greetings from Argentina
"An old god buried in the ground" you say? .... "Now whether by accident or by fate they chanted this sleeping titan’s name and ‘it' awoke. We knew not what we did."
My default I would say is the "ride the tiger" option
Carl Schmitt - Friend enemy distinction is the in and out group that is just a function of the human condition. The terms and conditions to which people make that distinction may change over time but it remains regardless. It's an uncomfortable truth of society but it remains in the background of all interactions nonetheless.
The transition that people are witnessing from what the old left used to be about (the animosity and skepticism of the state) versus this radical shift to authoritarianism is a tale as old as time. The seduction of power and dominance is within everyone and for some its too great a thirst for them to remained consistent. Many on the left have not indulged in this seduction but sadly others have succumbed. Some may say they were never really on the left they were just waiting to get power and now that they have it they don't want to let it go, and for many that is the case, but the thirst of power changes a lot of people that some really don't like to acknowledge because it offends their sensibilities to confront the reality that they can be just as vulnerable to the idea of dominance than those they purport to be protecting from dominance.
Yes
Dang, the first convo was good. This one is better.
So happy that Wendell Berry got a shoutout. A highly recommended and necessary voice!
Thanks Paul and Jonathan!
1:06:20 the original script of the matrix said that humans were harvested for processing power, meaning they were using a part of their brains to do math, just like how we use processors in our computers.
Interesting...
@@chrisdeffx6548 they decided to go for the battery idea because it was thought that most of the audience would know what a battery is but not what a processor is.
@@acuerdox 😐
I believe what you should focus on is the Industrial Revolution. This is when personal identity started to really not matter. Authorities lost the ability to control ideology but gained far more reliable material means of control. And the interdependence of an industrial system combined with improvements in transportation and communication allow for more centralization. The advent of the musket temporarily slowed centralization because the masses were needed for military service. However, with the advent of computer technology and specialist militaries, masses are no longer needed. What is needed is to maintain ideological division among the masses while maintaining a dependence on industrial products. The products form the basis of order, that is people are incentivized to contribute to the order by the prospect of acquiring material goods of a kind which would be impossible without the industrial order. Gandhi understood this all too well. But in Gandhi we also see the weakness of the order. If spiritual considerations rise above material considerations, the order cannot function. Though it has the military power to punish any resistance, it also depends upon mass voluntary compliance to maintain its resources. Any moral considerations are dangerous to it. This I believe is the reason for the rise of moral relativism and postmodernism. Remember that “Great Thinkers” are chosen by professors. Professors are paid by the government or the aristocracy. Hence the aristocracy ultimately decides what thinkers are great and whose ideas ought to be popularized. Negating morals and religion is conducive to industry. I suspect this is also why Protestantism is so popular in industrial countries. It’s inherent inability to organize and maintain cohesion makes it less of a threat while it’s focused on obedience and passivity are helpful in preventing crime.
Of course the fact is that human beings can’t really be amoral. You can negate thier moral guidance but they will always have values, and few are willing to put material welfare at the top of thier value chain. They will hold material welfare as a necessity to achieving higher goals, but never as the main focus of thier lives. Hence the industrial order cannot hope to maintain itself indefinitely. Communication technology has allowed people with simmilar value chains to coordinate. It has not reached the level of organization yet, they cannot produce leaders. This I believe is the importance of the church. Most moral systems do not produce leaders. The church produces hierarchy by its very nature. That’s us why it will always triumph. It’s moral code is correct and it produces organization and leaders. The difficulty is in propagating its views. Not only do we need the technology but also the gift of teaching which only comes from the Holy Spirit. Further we need monks and nuns. Those are the kinds of people that bring converts by the masses. American monks with UA-cam channels. That’s the ticket. Monks putting out relationship advice on tiktok. People naturally gravitate to ascetics. They sense that this is the sort of person who has answers, someone who is free from material concerns. Every person I meet, thier first accusation against the church is that it collects money. A monk living in poverty, that’s the kind of spiritual leader they will listen to. Women particularly are persuaded by ascetics, and in a material culture women have inordinate power as consumers. Monks and nuns with the gift of teaching giving out relationship advice and offering counseling through social media. That’s exactly what we need. And it’s just what we don’t have.
People want liberation from their work and sex lives. They know it isn’t working but our society offers no way out. The ascetic life is so necessary, I cannot stress this enough. People know they are enslaved but they won’t listen to anyone who seems equally enslaved. Only one who maintains an ascetic life can teach them. They want an outsiders perspective but they can’t find any outsiders. Everyone seems to be part of the industrial order. I suspect they listen to scientists, imagining that science puts one outride the order. I say this because if I mention to anyone that most of a scientists time is spent raising money for his experiments, that He is monetarily incentivized to lie, that He has a wife and children He needs to provide for and has no choice but to yield to His economic needs, they become angry and feel that I shouldn’t insult science so.
@Jonathan Pageau
I don't know if you've read the book, "American Gods", by Neil Gaiman, but it's really good, along the lines of "attention = gods".
(I don't recommend the show of the same name.)
The Rod Dreher Option is for the privileged..what of millions of our christian brothers working living in cities without options , our help must be in the Lord wherever you may be.
Theres no domain over spirit...beautiful sharing
It’s crazy to see the same things being said by Jonathan and his guests, Jordan Peterson, Alex Jones, and CS Lewis.
~ Dream Simulator ~
As somebody who has a VR headset ( HTC Vive ) & has been having crazy amounts of fun with what essentially feels like tech demo versions of games, just the raw reality of forgetting I'm in my room ( I've almost broken things, and myself ), & the fact that I can use Google earth VR to physical move around the earth in a way that's better than any drone to scope out spots where I want to prospect for gold mining..
Essentially what it feels like is a dream simulator. If you can lucid dream, anything you could've ever thought of doing will probably be in VR one day.
"Faith is what you make it" - OutKast
The Ringing Cedars of Russia book series discusses all of these topics and solutions through forming communities with a higher purpose
Very interesting perspective on Kevin Kelly, he's supposed to have converted to Christianity.
It's time be a WARRIORS of Christ. Hallowed be his name.
I completely agree with both insights.I think the Kain story rules, so the solution is simple. We have to pretend, than go the other way around and rely on the old ways based on proper doctrine. We have to be radical in revealing the contra-diction.Maybe because i am from Holland(zwarte Piet=Black Jack)but we as peaople have no control over our institutes wich lacks moral authority.
Jonathan, have you read Charles Upton's book 'Vectors of the Counter-Initiation - the Course and Destiny of Inverted Spirituality'? I think you would find it very interesting. It would be amazing if you would interview him while he is still alive.
When he speaks about the breaking of all the limits, and old restrictions etc. as a purpose in itself around 1:03:40 I imediatly thought about Foucault's point in that famous Chomsky-Foucault debate.
Renunciation, not being respectable, limits…….and the killing machine. Roberto Rossellini’s movie, The Flowers of Saint Francis, nails it. I wonder about martyrdom.
50:55 "the only thing left is the will to power"...
"For the Kingdom of God is NOT in the word but in Power" 1 Corinthians 4:20
it uses the greek δυνάμει "dynamei"= force, power, "dynamic", potency
Technology has always been a two-edged sword. That's what the garden of Eden is about!
Nice talk guys 👍🏾🔥❤️
Wow, if Tolkien were alive, and watched this video, he might be inspired to finish the sequel to The Lord of the Rings. Jon and Paul can "smell the old evil".
The increasing difficulty in talking across the spectrum is a good starting point. Can we all at least acknowledge that the intolerance is primarily sourced from a specific group who claim to be "open-minded"?
Just a minor note -- at 17:00 Jonathan speaks of the groups in which the individual is embedded (family, church, community, nation) and never mentions schools. This is a significant omission, because it is the business of the schools to embed us, and we spend our formative years being programmed by them.
Intro sounding like stairway to heaven lol and I’m just getting the connection….wow, so funny
Dr. Anthony Esolen has an interesting lecture that’s posted on UA-cam where he discusses the Boethius Option in addition to the Benedict. It’s worth considering for those who have any capacity to effect change-even if it’s “futile”, there are spiritual fruits in putting oneself in the firing line, so to speak. I could never criticize someone for choosing the Benedict or Anthony options, however. All of the options are perhaps necessary for folks, each according to his station in life.
I love Anthony Esolen's writing! Do you know the link to that video?
These kind of talks always make me so scared. It’s all I can think about usually.
Draw closer to Christ. He is victorious over His enemies and will make everything right in the end for those who love Him. I say that just as much as a reminder to myself. We won’t be able to make it through without holding tight to the source of all Life.
Thank you
“Ecological background of disintegration”
23:15
This is profound, that our structures, societies, economies and ecology are all being warped at Babylon level proportions certainly needs more attention.
What if we (as a individual) should invest 1 cent and bring the order in circulation they are nowhere to be found in these ones and zero's. This means practical perception and will unite in the one thing :The bill!. We are not used to bring opposition and we have to learn this quickly. When the temperature rises ,condemned atoms we are (im protestant) ,Euphoria will rises in us. Stay clean. Thanks to you gentlemen we will ignite better sooner because we are to late(heaven composes, men disposes)
2 guys exploring the fringes of their knowledge to try and further what they already know 💜 rather than trying to hammer home some point to convince the other or himself.
I’m developing ponytail envy haha these are two brilliant fellows
Has Pageau ever mentioned any new icon movements like Nowa Ikona? The icons painted by Danylo Movchan and Ivanka Demchuk really speak to me and I wonder whether or not the EO Church has guidelines on whether icons like those are ok or not.
From what I understand regarding the first Matrix, originally the humans were being used because the machines needed their brains' processing power. The studio didn't think audiences would understand that, so it was changed to batteries.
Stop paying attention to Haidt.
I go for the Saint Boniface Option...
May we be like Daniel who "neither rebelled nor compromised," as James Jordan wrote in Through New Eyes.
One thing I find deeply concerning about the metaverse and similar technologies is that they're advancing to an extraordinary level the replacement of the given world and its order with the world of artifact. Erazim Kohák wrote a great book in the 1980s that talked about the need to "bracket" artifacts if we are ever to recover a sense that creation has a moral order. Submerge yourself entirely in artifact, and your world is not just experientially poorer; you have cut yourself off from the Spirit of God, from authentic meaning, or anything truly larger than yourself. It's already hard to escape the excesses of techne; but how much worse will it be for the unformed minds who will know nothing other than a world that perfectly reflects their own whims and desires?
this is why the Death of God happened after the industrial Revolution and it has become increasingly easier to not believe in God over time. If you see everything you need coming from man and his systems, God becomes a distant abstract concept of little to no experiential meaning.
46:48 Perhaps the left’s ideals never were the goal but a means. As long as the structure had the left in the margins, the left favoured the margins. Now that power is more tilted towards the left, the true goal emerges which is just power. The left is aimed at power, and the proposed ideals are just means to crowbar their way towards acquiring it.
Not mysterious at all really😊
Leftism is a values system. The strategy to appeal to the weak to the underrepresented to the poor, was just a strategy to gain power and impose their values. Their values is antichristianity, like homosexuality, sodomy, human sacrifice, slavery, racism, war,...thats why now their true nature is showing and they dont care to appeal to their former narrative..your observation is correct but you must address why they want the power for...the power is to impose its values on society to destroy Christianity, as they did in formerly Christian Europe...this is called The Great Work
You need to bring on Brendan Markey-Towler
Such a good talk!
Now more than ever we need to form strong bonds with flesh and blood people that we can touch and interact with and interact more with… meditate upon the scriptures which are wholly trustworthy.
be wise as serpents and harmless as doves
observe the Sabbath- no cell phone for one day to focus on the day of rest and important things